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Johnson’s failure to apologise for party-gate is making matters worse – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,151
edited April 2022 in General
Johnson’s failure to apologise for party-gate is making matters worse – politicalbetting.com

Breaking:Boris Johnson is *still* refusing to accept that law has been broken over Downing Street parties despite 20 fines being issuedPM’s official spokesman refuses to endorse Raab’s assertion that law was broken and that PM was wrong to say in Commons no rules were broken

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Do we know ID of any recipient yet?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,774
    Fuck Business Boris!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,500
    "Germany and Austria plan for gas rationing over payment stand-off with Russia
    Berlin activates emergency law as west refuses to comply with Moscow’s demand for roubles"

    https://www.ft.com/content/0706d6f4-6668-4f67-ab1c-d535d847caf7
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,262
    Interesting survey out on where people want to immigrate. Interesting in that it confirms my priors -> UK is declining as attractive destination.

    https://www.bcg.com/publications/2021/virtual-mobility-in-the-global-workforce
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,720
    Is it making that big an impact? I think the damage was done before Christmas
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,720
    Tom Parker from the Wanted sadly dies at 33 from a brain tumour

    https://twitter.com/MetroUK/status/1509200457603993614?s=20&t=rLzVpX_5-mU7iDJ9YR-JvA
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,618
    He is actually saying the Met are wrong and the law has not been broken and no fixed fines should be issued?

    So - the logic must be when his fine finally arrives, he will contest it in court?
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    FPT

    FrankBooth said:

    I don't think they are having a good week on the battlefield. Ukrainian counterattacks appears to be the main story.

    The problem is that the better the Ukrainians do on the battlefield the more room there is for countries to go soft on sanctions. And it's unclear whether Ukraine can really push the Russians out of most of their positions even if they are stalled. A possible stalemate with not much likelihood of a negotiated settlement.


    TimT said:
    Or the longer, slower, attrition-oriented phase of the war. In which the Ukrainians make no big newsworthy advances, but behind the scenes keep on attacking supplies and keep on doing hit and run harassment and so generally sapping at both the morale and capability of the Russian forces.

    There does not appear to have been any real slowing of Russian equipment losses. Still running at about 10 tanks and 50 other items a day. In the last week it has gone for 260 tanks/1600 total, to 342 tanks and just shy of 2100 total. Backlog has only gone down from 170 to 160, so that's not it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,098
    rkrkrk said:

    Interesting survey out on where people want to immigrate. Interesting in that it confirms my priors -> UK is declining as attractive destination.

    https://www.bcg.com/publications/2021/virtual-mobility-in-the-global-workforce

    A survey from 2020? During Covid? Which also shows Germany, Spain and France declining?

    I politely suggest this survey is worse than useless
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,618

    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,098
    edited March 2022


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    That's not very friendly

    Imagine if Russian planes were overflying Britain WITH NUKES ON BOARD

    Edit: NB there is a Swedish expert on that thread who is highly skeptical that this happened, so who knows
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Putin's approval ratings have risen to 83% after he invaded Ukraine, according to Russia's only independent pollster.

    44% of Russians surveyed trust Putin, a rise of 10%.

    Those numbers are an enormous turnaround given they hit rock bottom not long ago.


    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1509203772924383249

    Has the EU closed its ports to Russian shipping yet? The UK did a month ago, when the EU said it was "considering it".....
  • agingjb2agingjb2 Posts: 114
    It may turn out that our rulers will contrive to have broken no laws. However they did set guidelines. Most people complied, unhappily, and the police too often interpreted the guidelines as laws.

    Our rulers did not think that even the guidelines applied to them. I find this just as appalling as selective lawbreaking.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    "Partygate? Fine by me!" - Boris Johnson
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,958
    "Johnson’s failure to apologise for party-gate is making matters worse"

    Is it?

    Tory MPs seem fine with it...
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,774


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    Well, they should have joined NATO in 1949!
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Leon said:


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    That's not very friendly

    Imagine if Russian planes were overflying Britain WITH NUKES ON BOARD

    Edit: NB there is a Swedish expert on that thread who is highly skeptical that this happened, so who knows
    What happens if a plane carrying a nuke is shot down? Do they, for example, rig it so the thing then detonates?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Leon said:


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    That's not very friendly

    Imagine if Russian planes were overflying Britain WITH NUKES ON BOARD

    Edit: NB there is a Swedish expert on that thread who is highly skeptical that this happened, so who knows
    For shit n'giggles during the 1960s "Konfrontasi" with Indonesia over Malaysia the RAF flew Vulcans with nuclear weapons from Singapore to Darwin.....overflying Java they opened the bomb doors......once they'd talked Sukarno down off the ceiling they persuaded him that shooting them down would be a bad idea....
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,098
    fpt for @MoonRabbit


    "Macron is a goner. Do you believe me now?

    Macron, Boris, sacked in same year - Putin survives the year."


    I am beginning to get weird feelings in me waters about France. There is an awful lot of discontent. As a nation, they haven't thrown a total strop in decades. They like global attention. Le Pen has detoxed the brand and is gathering all the opposition around her. Macron is fecking annoying, even for the French (esp the French?). He is a snob

    Le Pen could just snatch it.

    As it happens, if she did, I don't think it would be Fascist Apocalypse, more like a spasm of Gaullist Nationalism, but it would frighten all the horses of Europe


  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,098
    You can get 14/1 on Le Pen winning, right now

    To me that seems VALUE, given that latest poll:



    Macron (EC-RE): 52.5% (-3.5)
    Le Pen (RN-ID): 47.5% (+3.5)

    +/- vs. 19-21 March 2022


    Should be more like 7/1 or 8/1?

    She's not a rank outsider, not on those numbers
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,231


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    Well, they should have joined NATO in 1949!
    They should have joined the allies in 1939.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    Toms said:

    Leon said:


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    That's not very friendly

    Imagine if Russian planes were overflying Britain WITH NUKES ON BOARD

    Edit: NB there is a Swedish expert on that thread who is highly skeptical that this happened, so who knows
    What happens if a plane carrying a nuke is shot down? Do they, for example, rig it so the thing then detonates?
    It depends how insane they are.

    In the Goode Olde Days of the cold war, everyone spent lots of time and money trying to make sure their nukes didn't go bang Until The Day. Lots of tests (actual nuclear tests) to make sure of this.

    There were, in fact quite a few instances where aircraft crashed with nukes on board. Or the nukes fell off. Or were involved in a fire. In a number of instances the conventional explosives went off, but no nuclear yield.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,720
    Leon said:

    fpt for @MoonRabbit


    "Macron is a goner. Do you believe me now?

    Macron, Boris, sacked in same year - Putin survives the year."


    I am beginning to get weird feelings in me waters about France. There is an awful lot of discontent. As a nation, they haven't thrown a total strop in decades. They like global attention. Le Pen has detoxed the brand and is gathering all the opposition around her. Macron is fecking annoying, even for the French (esp the French?). He is a snob

    Le Pen could just snatch it.

    As it happens, if she did, I don't think it would be Fascist Apocalypse, more like a spasm of Gaullist Nationalism, but it would frighten all the horses of Europe


    Indeed, Macron is most popular amongst the rich, Parisians and the highly educated. Most of the rest of France loathes him.

    I still think he will win it but Le Pen has sufficiently detoxified the brand she is more of a viable alternative than 5 years ago or than her father ever was. Even if Macron is re elected, Le Pen will probably win the white working class vote and the rural vote
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,098
    The 14/1 on Le Pen has already gone

    Shortened to 12/1
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,098
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @MoonRabbit


    "Macron is a goner. Do you believe me now?

    Macron, Boris, sacked in same year - Putin survives the year."


    I am beginning to get weird feelings in me waters about France. There is an awful lot of discontent. As a nation, they haven't thrown a total strop in decades. They like global attention. Le Pen has detoxed the brand and is gathering all the opposition around her. Macron is fecking annoying, even for the French (esp the French?). He is a snob

    Le Pen could just snatch it.

    As it happens, if she did, I don't think it would be Fascist Apocalypse, more like a spasm of Gaullist Nationalism, but it would frighten all the horses of Europe


    Indeed, Macron is most popular amongst the rich, Parisians and the highly educated. Most of the rest of France loathes him.

    I still think he will win it but Le Pen has sufficiently detoxified the brand she is more of a viable alternative than 5 years ago or than her father ever was. Even if Macron is re elected, Le Pen will probably win the white working class vote and the rural vote
    Bet365 has Macron at 1/33, which is ridiculous in the light of that poll. Le Pen is within touching distance

    Like you, I am still pretty sure Macron will win, but in a time of war and plague - literally - nothing is as certain as 1/33
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738
    edited March 2022

    He is actually saying the Met are wrong and the law has not been broken and no fixed fines should be issued?

    So - the logic must be when his fine finally arrives, he will contest it in court?

    As the [edit] p[rima facie organiser of the party - head of the organization, his office and residence - I'd think he'd be lucky to get away with FPN.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    Perhaps they should do something with that outrage. Like join NATO.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,953
    Leon said:

    You can get 14/1 on Le Pen winning, right now

    To me that seems VALUE, given that latest poll:



    Macron (EC-RE): 52.5% (-3.5)
    Le Pen (RN-ID): 47.5% (+3.5)

    +/- vs. 19-21 March 2022


    Should be more like 7/1 or 8/1?

    She's not a rank outsider, not on those numbers

    From memory, isn’t she usually overstated in polls? Don’t disagree that feels like it will come in once it’s a two horse race though.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738
    edited March 2022

    Toms said:

    Leon said:


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    That's not very friendly

    Imagine if Russian planes were overflying Britain WITH NUKES ON BOARD

    Edit: NB there is a Swedish expert on that thread who is highly skeptical that this happened, so who knows
    What happens if a plane carrying a nuke is shot down? Do they, for example, rig it so the thing then detonates?
    It depends how insane they are.

    In the Goode Olde Days of the cold war, everyone spent lots of time and money trying to make sure their nukes didn't go bang Until The Day. Lots of tests (actual nuclear tests) to make sure of this.

    There were, in fact quite a few instances where aircraft crashed with nukes on board. Or the nukes fell off. Or were involved in a fire. In a number of instances the conventional explosives went off, but no nuclear yield.
    I've read a few accounts ofd that sort of thing. There is one swamp in the US where the rod-like piece of very dense plutonium in the middle of the fusion element of an H-bomb went straight into the ground from a height and could never be recovered - thought to be about 180' deep.

    However, the other bomb managed to arm itself to some extent. 'Until my death I will never forget hearing my sergeant [Earl Smith] say, "Lieutenant, we found the arm/safe switch." And I said, "Great." He said, "Not great. It's on arm."'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_Goldsboro_B-52_crash
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    edited March 2022
    Leon said:

    fpt for @MoonRabbit


    "Macron is a goner. Do you believe me now?

    Macron, Boris, sacked in same year - Putin survives the year."


    I am beginning to get weird feelings in me waters about France. There is an awful lot of discontent. As a nation, they haven't thrown a total strop in decades. They like global attention. Le Pen has detoxed the brand and is gathering all the opposition around her. Macron is fecking annoying, even for the French (esp the French?). He is a snob

    Le Pen could just snatch it.

    As it happens, if she did, I don't think it would be Fascist Apocalypse, more like a spasm of Gaullist Nationalism, but it would frighten all the horses of Europe

    As we're often reminded Le Pen is not the same as her daddy, or even herself 10 years ago, but it would still be a shock if she got so close, let alone won. Even getting into the low 40s would be a sizable increase on her share from last time.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    Leon said:

    fpt for @MoonRabbit


    "Macron is a goner. Do you believe me now?

    Macron, Boris, sacked in same year - Putin survives the year."


    I am beginning to get weird feelings in me waters about France. There is an awful lot of discontent. As a nation, they haven't thrown a total strop in decades. They like global attention. Le Pen has detoxed the brand and is gathering all the opposition around her. Macron is fecking annoying, even for the French (esp the French?). He is a snob

    Le Pen could just snatch it.

    As it happens, if she did, I don't think it would be Fascist Apocalypse, more like a spasm of Gaullist Nationalism, but it would frighten all the horses of Europe


    I'm no expert and not betting on this, but from memory La Pen was doing quite well last time, until the One on One debates, after the first and before the second round.

    She may have rehearsed a bit in the last few years, but I suspect that will be her undoing again this time.
  • Leon said:

    You can get 14/1 on Le Pen winning, right now

    To me that seems VALUE, given that latest poll:



    Macron (EC-RE): 52.5% (-3.5)
    Le Pen (RN-ID): 47.5% (+3.5)

    +/- vs. 19-21 March 2022


    Should be more like 7/1 or 8/1?

    She's not a rank outsider, not on those numbers

    Two other polls covering the same period had Macron on 56%, leading by 12%. Hypothetical polling has been incredibly stable on this. Le Pen has never led, and the range has been extremely narrow - her in the mid 40s, him in the mid 50s, going back years.

    Additionally, the two previous times a far right candidate made the run-off (2017 and 2002) they significantly underperformed polling in the second round. You get Melanchon voters and so on expressing extreme reluctance to vote for the Establishment candidate... but in the end they largely hold their noses and do so.

    I'd not bet on Le Pen at odds shorter than 25-1.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,926
    Leon said:

    The 14/1 on Le Pen has already gone

    Shortened to 12/1

    Wasn't Le Pen 5/2 in the betting at one point in 2017?
  • Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1509207142980636677

    FIRST CANDIDATES ELECTED FOR MAY'S ELECTIONS:

    Inverclyde East is uncontested - a 3 member ward with 3 candidates. Christopher Curley (SNP), Stephen McCabe (Labour) and David Wilson (Conservative) will thus be automatically elected in May.

    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1509208754545385472

    SECOND CANDIDATES ELICTED FOR MAY'S ELECTIONS:

    'Buckie in Moray is uncontested - also 3 in a 3. Neil McLennan (Conservative), Christopher Thomas Price (Lib Dem), Sonya Warren (SNP) will thus be automatically elected in May.

    This is v funny as LD's would never have won here.'
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Had my 4th jab 2day. This was from Moderna. The previous ones were Pfizers. I wonder if this will appear to have have essentially no outward effect like the others.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    edited March 2022
    BigRich said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @MoonRabbit


    "Macron is a goner. Do you believe me now?

    Macron, Boris, sacked in same year - Putin survives the year."


    I am beginning to get weird feelings in me waters about France. There is an awful lot of discontent. As a nation, they haven't thrown a total strop in decades. They like global attention. Le Pen has detoxed the brand and is gathering all the opposition around her. Macron is fecking annoying, even for the French (esp the French?). He is a snob

    Le Pen could just snatch it.

    As it happens, if she did, I don't think it would be Fascist Apocalypse, more like a spasm of Gaullist Nationalism, but it would frighten all the horses of Europe


    I'm no expert and not betting on this, but from memory La Pen was doing quite well last time, until the One on One debates, after the first and before the second round.

    She may have rehearsed a bit in the last few years, but I suspect that will be her undoing again this time.
    Seems to have been relatively steady - a rise after the first round occurred in April, but then a fall back.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_French_presidential_election#Opinion_polls
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,098
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    You can get 14/1 on Le Pen winning, right now

    To me that seems VALUE, given that latest poll:



    Macron (EC-RE): 52.5% (-3.5)
    Le Pen (RN-ID): 47.5% (+3.5)

    +/- vs. 19-21 March 2022


    Should be more like 7/1 or 8/1?

    She's not a rank outsider, not on those numbers

    From memory, isn’t she usually overstated in polls? Don’t disagree that feels like it will come in once it’s a two horse race though.
    She's clearly got the crucial momentum (esp after this poll)

    The French are an ornery, contrary bunch. A nation born of revolution

    I can see a lot of French people walking to the voting booth and thinking Ah, Fuck It

    You know exactly what Macron will deliver, if you vote Macron: it will be 5 more years of the same. Le Pen? She is change. She is different. If you're pissed off in any fundamental way, she is the choice

    Hmm. Still unlikely but certainement pas impossible
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    Carnyx said:

    Toms said:

    Leon said:


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    That's not very friendly

    Imagine if Russian planes were overflying Britain WITH NUKES ON BOARD

    Edit: NB there is a Swedish expert on that thread who is highly skeptical that this happened, so who knows
    What happens if a plane carrying a nuke is shot down? Do they, for example, rig it so the thing then detonates?
    It depends how insane they are.

    In the Goode Olde Days of the cold war, everyone spent lots of time and money trying to make sure their nukes didn't go bang Until The Day. Lots of tests (actual nuclear tests) to make sure of this.

    There were, in fact quite a few instances where aircraft crashed with nukes on board. Or the nukes fell off. Or were involved in a fire. In a number of instances the conventional explosives went off, but no nuclear yield.
    I've read a few accounts ofd that sort of thing. There is one swamp in the US where the rod-like piece of very dense plutonium in the middle of the fusion element of an H-bomb went straight into the ground from a height and could never be recovered - thought to be about 180' deep.

    However, the other bomb managed to arm itself to some extent. 'Until my death I will never forget hearing my sergeant [Earl Smith] say, "Lieutenant, we found the arm/safe switch." And I said, "Great." He said, "Not great. It's on arm."'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_Goldsboro_B-52_crash
    People are still arguing on that one. The tritium injection hadn't activated and the neutron generator hadn't charged, so a significant yield wasn't possible.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    edited March 2022
    Toms said:

    Leon said:


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    That's not very friendly

    Imagine if Russian planes were overflying Britain WITH NUKES ON BOARD

    Edit: NB there is a Swedish expert on that thread who is highly skeptical that this happened, so who knows
    What happens if a plane carrying a nuke is shot down? Do they, for example, rig it so the thing then detonates?
    Edit: Damn, beaten to it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_Goldsboro_B-52_crash

    The 1961 Goldsboro B-52 crash was an accident that occurred near Goldsboro, North Carolina, on 23 January 1961. A Boeing B-52 Stratofortress carrying two 3–4-megaton Mark 39 nuclear bombs broke up in mid-air, dropping its nuclear payload in the process...Information declassified in 2013 showed that one of the bombs came close to detonating, with three of the four required triggering mechanisms having activated


  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,098
    edited March 2022

    Leon said:

    You can get 14/1 on Le Pen winning, right now

    To me that seems VALUE, given that latest poll:



    Macron (EC-RE): 52.5% (-3.5)
    Le Pen (RN-ID): 47.5% (+3.5)

    +/- vs. 19-21 March 2022


    Should be more like 7/1 or 8/1?

    She's not a rank outsider, not on those numbers

    Two other polls covering the same period had Macron on 56%, leading by 12%. Hypothetical polling has been incredibly stable on this. Le Pen has never led, and the range has been extremely narrow - her in the mid 40s, him in the mid 50s, going back years.

    Additionally, the two previous times a far right candidate made the run-off (2017 and 2002) they significantly underperformed polling in the second round. You get Melanchon voters and so on expressing extreme reluctance to vote for the Establishment candidate... but in the end they largely hold their noses and do so.

    I'd not bet on Le Pen at odds shorter than 25-1.
    We are in an entirely different situation to anything that has gone before. Post Brexit, post Trump, in a global plague, and Europe is plunged into Russian war, with a looming and enormous economic crisis

    In that light you could argue voters will go for the safer option. Macron. Or they will want a more robust selfish France to protect France: Le Pen

    If I were a betting man (and I am not) I'd pop £5 on Le Pen at 14/1


  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,953
    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    You can get 14/1 on Le Pen winning, right now

    To me that seems VALUE, given that latest poll:



    Macron (EC-RE): 52.5% (-3.5)
    Le Pen (RN-ID): 47.5% (+3.5)

    +/- vs. 19-21 March 2022


    Should be more like 7/1 or 8/1?

    She's not a rank outsider, not on those numbers

    From memory, isn’t she usually overstated in polls? Don’t disagree that feels like it will come in once it’s a two horse race though.
    She's clearly got the crucial momentum (esp after this poll)

    The French are an ornery, contrary bunch. A nation born of revolution

    I can see a lot of French people walking to the voting booth and thinking Ah, Fuck It

    You know exactly what Macron will deliver, if you vote Macron: it will be 5 more years of the same. Le Pen? She is change. She is different. If you're pissed off in any fundamental way, she is the choice

    Hmm. Still unlikely but certainement pas impossible
    As you say, it would throw a cat amongst the EU pigeons. Her views on EU sanctions (or not) of Hungary and Poland could be interesting.
  • Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @MoonRabbit


    "Macron is a goner. Do you believe me now?

    Macron, Boris, sacked in same year - Putin survives the year."


    I am beginning to get weird feelings in me waters about France. There is an awful lot of discontent. As a nation, they haven't thrown a total strop in decades. They like global attention. Le Pen has detoxed the brand and is gathering all the opposition around her. Macron is fecking annoying, even for the French (esp the French?). He is a snob

    Le Pen could just snatch it.

    As it happens, if she did, I don't think it would be Fascist Apocalypse, more like a spasm of Gaullist Nationalism, but it would frighten all the horses of Europe


    Indeed, Macron is most popular amongst the rich, Parisians and the highly educated. Most of the rest of France loathes him.

    I still think he will win it but Le Pen has sufficiently detoxified the brand she is more of a viable alternative than 5 years ago or than her father ever was. Even if Macron is re elected, Le Pen will probably win the white working class vote and the rural vote
    Bet365 has Macron at 1/33, which is ridiculous in the light of that poll. Le Pen is within touching distance

    Like you, I am still pretty sure Macron will win, but in a time of war and plague - literally - nothing is as certain as 1/33
    Some things are. I and many others laid Trump as next President in December last year on Betfair to the tune of thousands - not a huge % return, but better than a bank and just as safe. It was taking free money from fantasists.

    I accept this isn't on that level, but think you're underestimating how likely the likely outcome is here.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    kle4 said:

    Toms said:

    Leon said:


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    That's not very friendly

    Imagine if Russian planes were overflying Britain WITH NUKES ON BOARD

    Edit: NB there is a Swedish expert on that thread who is highly skeptical that this happened, so who knows
    What happens if a plane carrying a nuke is shot down? Do they, for example, rig it so the thing then detonates?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_Goldsboro_B-52_crash

    The 1961 Goldsboro B-52 crash was an accident that occurred near Goldsboro, North Carolina, on 23 January 1961. A Boeing B-52 Stratofortress carrying two 3–4-megaton Mark 39 nuclear bombs broke up in mid-air, dropping its nuclear payload in the process...Information declassified in 2013 showed that one of the bombs came close to detonating, with three of the four required triggering mechanisms having activated
    The fun version leaves out the fact that the neutron generator (an external device, rather than the original polonium/beryllium "urchin') hadn't been charged - it needed a greater deal of electrical power which was stored in a rapid discharge battery.

    Without that, the primary wouldn't go nuclear. So if the conventional explosives donated, you'd get a mess, but no mushroom clouds.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,953

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @MoonRabbit


    "Macron is a goner. Do you believe me now?

    Macron, Boris, sacked in same year - Putin survives the year."


    I am beginning to get weird feelings in me waters about France. There is an awful lot of discontent. As a nation, they haven't thrown a total strop in decades. They like global attention. Le Pen has detoxed the brand and is gathering all the opposition around her. Macron is fecking annoying, even for the French (esp the French?). He is a snob

    Le Pen could just snatch it.

    As it happens, if she did, I don't think it would be Fascist Apocalypse, more like a spasm of Gaullist Nationalism, but it would frighten all the horses of Europe


    Indeed, Macron is most popular amongst the rich, Parisians and the highly educated. Most of the rest of France loathes him.

    I still think he will win it but Le Pen has sufficiently detoxified the brand she is more of a viable alternative than 5 years ago or than her father ever was. Even if Macron is re elected, Le Pen will probably win the white working class vote and the rural vote
    Bet365 has Macron at 1/33, which is ridiculous in the light of that poll. Le Pen is within touching distance

    Like you, I am still pretty sure Macron will win, but in a time of war and plague - literally - nothing is as certain as 1/33
    Some things are. I and many others laid Trump as next President in December last year on Betfair to the tune of thousands - not a huge % return, but better than a bank and just as safe. It was taking free money from fantasists.

    I accept this isn't on that level, but think you're underestimating how likely the likely outcome is here.
    The cash you could take from people even once it was clear he was losing almost felt like theft.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,098

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @MoonRabbit


    "Macron is a goner. Do you believe me now?

    Macron, Boris, sacked in same year - Putin survives the year."


    I am beginning to get weird feelings in me waters about France. There is an awful lot of discontent. As a nation, they haven't thrown a total strop in decades. They like global attention. Le Pen has detoxed the brand and is gathering all the opposition around her. Macron is fecking annoying, even for the French (esp the French?). He is a snob

    Le Pen could just snatch it.

    As it happens, if she did, I don't think it would be Fascist Apocalypse, more like a spasm of Gaullist Nationalism, but it would frighten all the horses of Europe


    Indeed, Macron is most popular amongst the rich, Parisians and the highly educated. Most of the rest of France loathes him.

    I still think he will win it but Le Pen has sufficiently detoxified the brand she is more of a viable alternative than 5 years ago or than her father ever was. Even if Macron is re elected, Le Pen will probably win the white working class vote and the rural vote
    Bet365 has Macron at 1/33, which is ridiculous in the light of that poll. Le Pen is within touching distance

    Like you, I am still pretty sure Macron will win, but in a time of war and plague - literally - nothing is as certain as 1/33
    Some things are. I and many others laid Trump as next President in December last year on Betfair to the tune of thousands - not a huge % return, but better than a bank and just as safe. It was taking free money from fantasists.

    I accept this isn't on that level, but think you're underestimating how likely the likely outcome is here.
    A YES vote in Scotland seemed impossible - until it became highly possible, and David Cameron started weeping on live TV. A Brexit vote seemed ludicrously unlikely - I recall Richard Nabavi predicting it would be 70/30 Remain - and then Brexit won

    Ditto Trump in, say, 2015

    We are in a time of unusual events
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,744
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    You can get 14/1 on Le Pen winning, right now

    To me that seems VALUE, given that latest poll:



    Macron (EC-RE): 52.5% (-3.5)
    Le Pen (RN-ID): 47.5% (+3.5)

    +/- vs. 19-21 March 2022


    Should be more like 7/1 or 8/1?

    She's not a rank outsider, not on those numbers

    Two other polls covering the same period had Macron on 56%, leading by 12%. Hypothetical polling has been incredibly stable on this. Le Pen has never led, and the range has been extremely narrow - her in the mid 40s, him in the mid 50s, going back years.

    Additionally, the two previous times a far right candidate made the run-off (2017 and 2002) they significantly underperformed polling in the second round. You get Melanchon voters and so on expressing extreme reluctance to vote for the Establishment candidate... but in the end they largely hold their noses and do so.

    I'd not bet on Le Pen at odds shorter than 25-1.
    We are in an entirely different situation to anything that has gone before. Post Brexit, post Trump, in a global plague, and Europe is plunged into Russian war, with a looming and enormous economic crisis

    In that light you could argue voters will go for the safer option. Macron. Or they will want a more robust selfish France to protect France: Le Pen

    If I were a betting man (and I am not) I'd pop £5 on Le Pen at 14/1


    Hat's off Leon. Three themes and all good thoughts.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    kle4 said:

    Toms said:

    Leon said:


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    That's not very friendly

    Imagine if Russian planes were overflying Britain WITH NUKES ON BOARD

    Edit: NB there is a Swedish expert on that thread who is highly skeptical that this happened, so who knows
    What happens if a plane carrying a nuke is shot down? Do they, for example, rig it so the thing then detonates?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_Goldsboro_B-52_crash

    The 1961 Goldsboro B-52 crash was an accident that occurred near Goldsboro, North Carolina, on 23 January 1961. A Boeing B-52 Stratofortress carrying two 3–4-megaton Mark 39 nuclear bombs broke up in mid-air, dropping its nuclear payload in the process...Information declassified in 2013 showed that one of the bombs came close to detonating, with three of the four required triggering mechanisms having activated
    The fun version leaves out the fact that the neutron generator (an external device, rather than the original polonium/beryllium "urchin') hadn't been charged - it needed a greater deal of electrical power which was stored in a rapid discharge battery.

    Without that, the primary wouldn't go nuclear. So if the conventional explosives donated, you'd get a mess, but no mushroom clouds.
    You're just determined to ruin a good story with facts, damn you.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,500
    edited March 2022
    This is disturbing. Young people less likely to support Ukraine and more likely to be pro-Russian in some countries.

    "Our polling reveals a striking generational divide on Ukraine
    Young people in America and Europe are less sympathetic towards it"

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/03/29/our-polling-reveals-a-striking-generational-divide-on-ukraine
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Toms said:

    Leon said:


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    That's not very friendly

    Imagine if Russian planes were overflying Britain WITH NUKES ON BOARD

    Edit: NB there is a Swedish expert on that thread who is highly skeptical that this happened, so who knows
    What happens if a plane carrying a nuke is shot down? Do they, for example, rig it so the thing then detonates?
    I should imagine that the default is the opposite, in that otherwise you open yourself to nasty accidents in peacetime if your planes crash through mechanical failure.

    But, IANAE, and maybe they do things differently in times of 'war' 'special military operation' and/or in Russia
  • kle4 said:

    BigRich said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @MoonRabbit


    "Macron is a goner. Do you believe me now?

    Macron, Boris, sacked in same year - Putin survives the year."


    I am beginning to get weird feelings in me waters about France. There is an awful lot of discontent. As a nation, they haven't thrown a total strop in decades. They like global attention. Le Pen has detoxed the brand and is gathering all the opposition around her. Macron is fecking annoying, even for the French (esp the French?). He is a snob

    Le Pen could just snatch it.

    As it happens, if she did, I don't think it would be Fascist Apocalypse, more like a spasm of Gaullist Nationalism, but it would frighten all the horses of Europe


    I'm no expert and not betting on this, but from memory La Pen was doing quite well last time, until the One on One debates, after the first and before the second round.

    She may have rehearsed a bit in the last few years, but I suspect that will be her undoing again this time.
    Seems to have been relatively steady - a rise after the first round occurred in April, but then a fall back.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_French_presidential_election#Opinion_polls
    Two points with that graph.

    Firstly, that movement at the end (up for Macron, down for Le Pen) is indeed the second round debate as mentioned.

    Secondly, you see the bold yellow and blue dots at the end of the graph? That's the actual result - the only poll that matters. For Macron, it's higher than his polling line not just at the end but at ANY point. For Le Pen it's below the blue line at ANY point. That't the "holding your nose" effect for Macron from hard left and moderate right voters.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,098
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Toms said:

    Leon said:


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    That's not very friendly

    Imagine if Russian planes were overflying Britain WITH NUKES ON BOARD

    Edit: NB there is a Swedish expert on that thread who is highly skeptical that this happened, so who knows
    What happens if a plane carrying a nuke is shot down? Do they, for example, rig it so the thing then detonates?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_Goldsboro_B-52_crash

    The 1961 Goldsboro B-52 crash was an accident that occurred near Goldsboro, North Carolina, on 23 January 1961. A Boeing B-52 Stratofortress carrying two 3–4-megaton Mark 39 nuclear bombs broke up in mid-air, dropping its nuclear payload in the process...Information declassified in 2013 showed that one of the bombs came close to detonating, with three of the four required triggering mechanisms having activated
    The fun version leaves out the fact that the neutron generator (an external device, rather than the original polonium/beryllium "urchin') hadn't been charged - it needed a greater deal of electrical power which was stored in a rapid discharge battery.

    Without that, the primary wouldn't go nuclear. So if the conventional explosives donated, you'd get a mess, but no mushroom clouds.
    You're just determined to ruin a good story with facts, damn you.
    There's always this story

    A US bomber crashed in northern Greenland with four nukes on board. AND ONE IS STILL MISSING

    https://www.fastcompany.com/40518772/thule-accident-nuclear-weapon-lost-greenland-us-denmark
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    kle4 said:

    BigRich said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @MoonRabbit


    "Macron is a goner. Do you believe me now?

    Macron, Boris, sacked in same year - Putin survives the year."


    I am beginning to get weird feelings in me waters about France. There is an awful lot of discontent. As a nation, they haven't thrown a total strop in decades. They like global attention. Le Pen has detoxed the brand and is gathering all the opposition around her. Macron is fecking annoying, even for the French (esp the French?). He is a snob

    Le Pen could just snatch it.

    As it happens, if she did, I don't think it would be Fascist Apocalypse, more like a spasm of Gaullist Nationalism, but it would frighten all the horses of Europe


    I'm no expert and not betting on this, but from memory La Pen was doing quite well last time, until the One on One debates, after the first and before the second round.

    She may have rehearsed a bit in the last few years, but I suspect that will be her undoing again this time.
    Seems to have been relatively steady - a rise after the first round occurred in April, but then a fall back.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_French_presidential_election#Opinion_polls
    Saw the colours on that graph and assumed it was better on who was going to win the war...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738
    Andy_JS said:

    This is disturbing. Young people less likely to support Ukraine and more likely to be pro-Russian in some countries.

    "Our polling reveals a striking generational divide on Ukraine
    Young people in America and Europe are less sympathetic towards it"

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/03/29/our-polling-reveals-a-striking-generational-divide-on-ukraine

    Isn't some at least of that a matter of youngsters not bothering to keep iup with the news/have an opinion?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,849
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @MoonRabbit


    "Macron is a goner. Do you believe me now?

    Macron, Boris, sacked in same year - Putin survives the year."


    I am beginning to get weird feelings in me waters about France. There is an awful lot of discontent. As a nation, they haven't thrown a total strop in decades. They like global attention. Le Pen has detoxed the brand and is gathering all the opposition around her. Macron is fecking annoying, even for the French (esp the French?). He is a snob

    Le Pen could just snatch it.

    As it happens, if she did, I don't think it would be Fascist Apocalypse, more like a spasm of Gaullist Nationalism, but it would frighten all the horses of Europe


    Indeed, Macron is most popular amongst the rich, Parisians and the highly educated. Most of the rest of France loathes him.

    I still think he will win it but Le Pen has sufficiently detoxified the brand she is more of a viable alternative than 5 years ago or than her father ever was. Even if Macron is re elected, Le Pen will probably win the white working class vote and the rural vote
    Bet365 has Macron at 1/33, which is ridiculous in the light of that poll. Le Pen is within touching distance

    Like you, I am still pretty sure Macron will win, but in a time of war and plague - literally - nothing is as certain as 1/33
    Some things are. I and many others laid Trump as next President in December last year on Betfair to the tune of thousands - not a huge % return, but better than a bank and just as safe. It was taking free money from fantasists.

    I accept this isn't on that level, but think you're underestimating how likely the likely outcome is here.
    A YES vote in Scotland seemed impossible - until it became highly possible, and David Cameron started weeping on live TV. A Brexit vote seemed ludicrously unlikely - I recall Richard Nabavi predicting it would be 70/30 Remain - and then Brexit won

    Ditto Trump in, say, 2015

    We are in a time of unusual events
    Just not quite as unusual as the events you tend to predict….
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Toms said:

    Leon said:


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    That's not very friendly

    Imagine if Russian planes were overflying Britain WITH NUKES ON BOARD

    Edit: NB there is a Swedish expert on that thread who is highly skeptical that this happened, so who knows
    What happens if a plane carrying a nuke is shot down? Do they, for example, rig it so the thing then detonates?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_Goldsboro_B-52_crash

    The 1961 Goldsboro B-52 crash was an accident that occurred near Goldsboro, North Carolina, on 23 January 1961. A Boeing B-52 Stratofortress carrying two 3–4-megaton Mark 39 nuclear bombs broke up in mid-air, dropping its nuclear payload in the process...Information declassified in 2013 showed that one of the bombs came close to detonating, with three of the four required triggering mechanisms having activated
    The fun version leaves out the fact that the neutron generator (an external device, rather than the original polonium/beryllium "urchin') hadn't been charged - it needed a greater deal of electrical power which was stored in a rapid discharge battery.

    Without that, the primary wouldn't go nuclear. So if the conventional explosives donated, you'd get a mess, but no mushroom clouds.
    You're just determined to ruin a good story with facts, damn you.
    There's always this story

    A US bomber crashed in northern Greenland with four nukes on board. AND ONE IS STILL MISSING

    https://www.fastcompany.com/40518772/thule-accident-nuclear-weapon-lost-greenland-us-denmark
    There are plenty of missing nukes. Something north of half a dozen, IIRC.

    Depends what you count as a nuke. For example, a B47 went missing over the Med with a couple of cores in carrying cases.
  • Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    https://www.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/media/26916/slge2022_notice_of_poll_and_situation_of_polling_stations-aberdeenshire-final.pdf

    Tories running 30 candidates, up from 23 in 2017. Would be interesting to hear RochdalePioneer's analysis on Aberdeenshire. I'm surprised they are not running 2 in Inverurie although perhaps that is to do with the independent standing and could be good news for the LDs there.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,500
    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disturbing. Young people less likely to support Ukraine and more likely to be pro-Russian in some countries.

    "Our polling reveals a striking generational divide on Ukraine
    Young people in America and Europe are less sympathetic towards it"

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/03/29/our-polling-reveals-a-striking-generational-divide-on-ukraine

    Isn't some at least of that a matter of youngsters not bothering to keep iup with the news/have an opinion?
    Maybe, but there's no excuse for "accidentally" supporting Russia because you haven't been taking an interest in the news.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,157
    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disturbing. Young people less likely to support Ukraine and more likely to be pro-Russian in some countries.

    "Our polling reveals a striking generational divide on Ukraine
    Young people in America and Europe are less sympathetic towards it"

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/03/29/our-polling-reveals-a-striking-generational-divide-on-ukraine

    Isn't some at least of that a matter of youngsters not bothering to keep iup with the news/have an opinion?
    Probably true for the don’t knows, but it’s worrying how many pro-Russian youngsters there are in the US and, to a lesser extent, France.

    Touch wood we seem not to have too much of this sort of thing here.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738
    Andy_JS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disturbing. Young people less likely to support Ukraine and more likely to be pro-Russian in some countries.

    "Our polling reveals a striking generational divide on Ukraine
    Young people in America and Europe are less sympathetic towards it"

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/03/29/our-polling-reveals-a-striking-generational-divide-on-ukraine

    Isn't some at least of that a matter of youngsters not bothering to keep iup with the news/have an opinion?
    Maybe, but there's no excuse for "accidentally" supporting Russia because you haven't been taking an interest in the news.
    I was thinkijng of the DKs specifically. In some cases, not all, they account for much of the difference.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738

    https://www.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/media/26916/slge2022_notice_of_poll_and_situation_of_polling_stations-aberdeenshire-final.pdf

    Tories running 30 candidates, up from 23 in 2017. Would be interesting to hear RochdalePioneer's analysis on Aberdeenshire. I'm surprised they are not running 2 in Inverurie although perhaps that is to do with the independent standing and could be good news for the LDs there.

    "Independent" in such airts = euphemism for Tory who doesn't want to admit it, perhaps to gain a few sneaky extra votes from people who don't realise that common convention.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    Andy_JS said:

    This is disturbing. Young people less likely to support Ukraine and more likely to be pro-Russian in some countries.

    "Our polling reveals a striking generational divide on Ukraine
    Young people in America and Europe are less sympathetic towards it"

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/03/29/our-polling-reveals-a-striking-generational-divide-on-ukraine

    I cant read the article paywall, (unless somebody has a good workaround?)

    but it is interesting how its much more pronounced in the USA middling in France and very small in UK.

    Leaving the contrary's defences aside, is this mostly a difference of weather you have a memory of the cold war? maybe?
  • Andy_JS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disturbing. Young people less likely to support Ukraine and more likely to be pro-Russian in some countries.

    "Our polling reveals a striking generational divide on Ukraine
    Young people in America and Europe are less sympathetic towards it"

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/03/29/our-polling-reveals-a-striking-generational-divide-on-ukraine

    Isn't some at least of that a matter of youngsters not bothering to keep iup with the news/have an opinion?
    Maybe, but there's no excuse for "accidentally" supporting Russia because you haven't been taking an interest in the news.
    Nah, for this century America has been led by Bush 43 and Trump, you can see why people aren't enamoured by America.

    For some there's no difference between the invasion of Ukraine and the liberation of Iraq in 2003.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,485

    Putin's approval ratings have risen to 83% after he invaded Ukraine, according to Russia's only independent pollster.

    44% of Russians surveyed trust Putin, a rise of 10%.

    Those numbers are an enormous turnaround given they hit rock bottom not long ago.


    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1509203772924383249

    (snip)

    AFAIAA this has happened every time Putin has launched an foreign adventure. After Georgia. After Crimea. After Syria.

    We haven't seen what happens in the long term when those foreign adventures turn out badly...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,500
    O/T

    Michael Palin's New Europe programme from 2007 is on TV at the moment. He's in Moldova and Romania.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Shamelessness is Johnson's superpower. He will never apologise.

    and many people love him for it
    Source?
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    Toms said:

    Leon said:


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    That's not very friendly

    Imagine if Russian planes were overflying Britain WITH NUKES ON BOARD

    Edit: NB there is a Swedish expert on that thread who is highly skeptical that this happened, so who knows
    What happens if a plane carrying a nuke is shot down? Do they, for example, rig it so the thing then detonates?
    It depends how insane they are.

    In the Goode Olde Days of the cold war, everyone spent lots of time and money trying to make sure their nukes didn't go bang Until The Day. Lots of tests (actual nuclear tests) to make sure of this.

    There were, in fact quite a few instances where aircraft crashed with nukes on board. Or the nukes fell off. Or were involved in a fire. In a number of instances the conventional explosives went off, but no nuclear yield.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_nuclear_accidents

    fairly sure there's some bombs unaccounted for ...
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,958
    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disturbing. Young people less likely to support Ukraine and more likely to be pro-Russian in some countries.

    "Our polling reveals a striking generational divide on Ukraine
    Young people in America and Europe are less sympathetic towards it"

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/03/29/our-polling-reveals-a-striking-generational-divide-on-ukraine

    Isn't some at least of that a matter of youngsters not bothering to keep iup with the news/have an opinion?
    Maybe, but there's no excuse for "accidentally" supporting Russia because you haven't been taking an interest in the news.
    I was thinkijng of the DKs specifically. In some cases, not all, they account for much of the difference.
    The UK was one of the countries surveyed. Much smaller generational gap than in the US. But I think it was probably ever thus. Some people when young go all radical and contrarian, and that leads to "my enemy's enemy" thinking.

    Interestingly the US divide was purely age related and non-partisan. Equal scores for both GOP and Dem supporters in both age groups. May be something to do with memory of the cold war.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,485
    BigRich said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disturbing. Young people less likely to support Ukraine and more likely to be pro-Russian in some countries.

    "Our polling reveals a striking generational divide on Ukraine
    Young people in America and Europe are less sympathetic towards it"

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/03/29/our-polling-reveals-a-striking-generational-divide-on-ukraine

    I cant read the article paywall, (unless somebody has a good workaround?)

    but it is interesting how its much more pronounced in the USA middling in France and very small in UK.

    Leaving the contrary's defences aside, is this mostly a difference of weather you have a memory of the cold war? maybe?
    I think Salisbury is a major effect in the UK. Despite all the talk about oligarchs, we've ben fairly bullish against Russia since at least before Crimea/Donbass/MH17, and all the major parties generally agree about that. Whereas in the US, you have the Donald backing Russia, so it splits on partisan divides.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,744

    Shamelessness is Johnson's superpower. He will never apologise.

    and many people love him for it
    Source?
    Brown, but Ketchup's fine if not.
  • On topic Boris Johnson is the kind of man to be caught in flagrante delicto with another woman by his wife and denying to his wife he was having an affair.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Scott_xP said:

    "Johnson’s failure to apologise for party-gate is making matters worse"

    Is it?

    Tory MPs seem fine with it...

    Source?
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    At least six.

    :)

    Dirk Pitt come on down
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,485

    Carnyx said:

    Toms said:

    Leon said:


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    That's not very friendly

    Imagine if Russian planes were overflying Britain WITH NUKES ON BOARD

    Edit: NB there is a Swedish expert on that thread who is highly skeptical that this happened, so who knows
    What happens if a plane carrying a nuke is shot down? Do they, for example, rig it so the thing then detonates?
    It depends how insane they are.

    In the Goode Olde Days of the cold war, everyone spent lots of time and money trying to make sure their nukes didn't go bang Until The Day. Lots of tests (actual nuclear tests) to make sure of this.

    There were, in fact quite a few instances where aircraft crashed with nukes on board. Or the nukes fell off. Or were involved in a fire. In a number of instances the conventional explosives went off, but no nuclear yield.
    I've read a few accounts ofd that sort of thing. There is one swamp in the US where the rod-like piece of very dense plutonium in the middle of the fusion element of an H-bomb went straight into the ground from a height and could never be recovered - thought to be about 180' deep.

    However, the other bomb managed to arm itself to some extent. 'Until my death I will never forget hearing my sergeant [Earl Smith] say, "Lieutenant, we found the arm/safe switch." And I said, "Great." He said, "Not great. It's on arm."'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_Goldsboro_B-52_crash
    People are still arguing on that one. The tritium injection hadn't activated and the neutron generator hadn't charged, so a significant yield wasn't possible.
    Wasn't there one of these incidents where the US got on a back-channel to Russia and said: "We need to really rethink our mutual safety mechanisms on our bombs..." ?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,262

    Scott_xP said:

    "Johnson’s failure to apologise for party-gate is making matters worse"

    Is it?

    Tory MPs seem fine with it...

    Source?
    No VoNC?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,500
    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    "Johnson’s failure to apologise for party-gate is making matters worse"

    Is it?

    Tory MPs seem fine with it...

    Source?
    No VoNC?
    There was never going to be one during a war situation.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @MoonRabbit


    "Macron is a goner. Do you believe me now?

    Macron, Boris, sacked in same year - Putin survives the year."


    I am beginning to get weird feelings in me waters about France. There is an awful lot of discontent. As a nation, they haven't thrown a total strop in decades. They like global attention. Le Pen has detoxed the brand and is gathering all the opposition around her. Macron is fecking annoying, even for the French (esp the French?). He is a snob

    Le Pen could just snatch it.

    As it happens, if she did, I don't think it would be Fascist Apocalypse, more like a spasm of Gaullist Nationalism, but it would frighten all the horses of Europe


    Indeed, Macron is most popular amongst the rich, Parisians and the highly educated. Most of the rest of France loathes him.

    I still think he will win it but Le Pen has sufficiently detoxified the brand she is more of a viable alternative than 5 years ago or than her father ever was. Even if Macron is re elected, Le Pen will probably win the white working class vote and the rural vote
    Bet365 has Macron at 1/33, which is ridiculous in the light of that poll. Le Pen is within touching distance

    Like you, I am still pretty sure Macron will win, but in a time of war and plague - literally - nothing is as certain as 1/33
    Some things are. I and many others laid Trump as next President in December last year on Betfair to the tune of thousands - not a huge % return, but better than a bank and just as safe. It was taking free money from fantasists.

    I accept this isn't on that level, but think you're underestimating how likely the likely outcome is here.
    A YES vote in Scotland seemed impossible - until it became highly possible, and David Cameron started weeping on live TV. A Brexit vote seemed ludicrously unlikely - I recall Richard Nabavi predicting it would be 70/30 Remain - and then Brexit won

    Ditto Trump in, say, 2015

    We are in a time of unusual events
    Let's not rewrite history here.

    Polling for the 2016 Referendum often showed a lead for Leave. Polling for the 2016 Presidential election sometimes showed a Trump lead and often showed him within 2% (noting that was in fact the Clinton margin in the popular vote). A couple of polls showed a lead for "Yes" in the 2014, and most in the final six weeks indicated it was a good deal closer than the final, double digit margin.

    That's not to say Trump and Brexit weren't surprises - they were. But people misremember them as coming completely out of the blue when actually plenty of polls were bang on the money.

    Remember, we're not looking at polling a year out from the French Presidential election. It's a month out, with two well known figures and very stable polling over a long period. So your comparison with Trump a year from the 2016 election isn't apt.

    Nothing is impossible in a two horse race - I accept that. But you're always addicted to the drama and narrative arc of these things and therefore tend to underestimate the likelihood that the thing that looks very likely to happen on the evidence will indeed happen.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,958

    BigRich said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disturbing. Young people less likely to support Ukraine and more likely to be pro-Russian in some countries.

    "Our polling reveals a striking generational divide on Ukraine
    Young people in America and Europe are less sympathetic towards it"

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/03/29/our-polling-reveals-a-striking-generational-divide-on-ukraine

    I cant read the article paywall, (unless somebody has a good workaround?)

    but it is interesting how its much more pronounced in the USA middling in France and very small in UK.

    Leaving the contrary's defences aside, is this mostly a difference of weather you have a memory of the cold war? maybe?
    I think Salisbury is a major effect in the UK. Despite all the talk about oligarchs, we've ben fairly bullish against Russia since at least before Crimea/Donbass/MH17, and all the major parties generally agree about that. Whereas in the US, you have the Donald backing Russia, so it splits on partisan divides.
    Well except there's no partisan divide in the US survey results. That's the most interesting thing. Perhaps because the young are influenced by the extreme left and the old by the extreme right, both of which are full of Putin apologists?
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    Andy_JS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disturbing. Young people less likely to support Ukraine and more likely to be pro-Russian in some countries.

    "Our polling reveals a striking generational divide on Ukraine
    Young people in America and Europe are less sympathetic towards it"

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/03/29/our-polling-reveals-a-striking-generational-divide-on-ukraine

    Isn't some at least of that a matter of youngsters not bothering to keep iup with the news/have an opinion?
    Maybe, but there's no excuse for "accidentally" supporting Russia because you haven't been taking an interest in the news.
    Nah, for this century America has been led by Bush 43 and Trump, you can see why people aren't enamoured by America.

    For some there's no difference between the invasion of Ukraine and the liberation of Iraq in 2003.
    I wonder if the yoof also think more globally than we old farts. Despite the fact I have lived most my life outside Britain (46/17 years out/in), I tend to think about Ukraine being a European war and hence 'our' problem, whereas Syria, Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Burma, Nagorny-Karabakh, etc... are really other peoples' problems (until we made them ours, where we did). So they are fundamentally different in my mind.

    But for many of the younger generation, it appears that what is front and centre for them is the contrast in how the West has reacted to 'like' situations, and hence for them the hypocrisy in our actions.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,485
    TimS said:

    BigRich said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disturbing. Young people less likely to support Ukraine and more likely to be pro-Russian in some countries.

    "Our polling reveals a striking generational divide on Ukraine
    Young people in America and Europe are less sympathetic towards it"

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/03/29/our-polling-reveals-a-striking-generational-divide-on-ukraine

    I cant read the article paywall, (unless somebody has a good workaround?)

    but it is interesting how its much more pronounced in the USA middling in France and very small in UK.

    Leaving the contrary's defences aside, is this mostly a difference of weather you have a memory of the cold war? maybe?
    I think Salisbury is a major effect in the UK. Despite all the talk about oligarchs, we've ben fairly bullish against Russia since at least before Crimea/Donbass/MH17, and all the major parties generally agree about that. Whereas in the US, you have the Donald backing Russia, so it splits on partisan divides.
    Well except there's no partisan divide in the US survey results. That's the most interesting thing. Perhaps because the young are influenced by the extreme left and the old by the extreme right, both of which are full of Putin apologists?
    Thanks, didn't know that. It does make it more interesting...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    I always think of young Webster when I read that - he is forgotten in all the articles about it, it seems...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076

    At least six.

    :)

    Dirk Pitt come on down

    Don't worry, I have about half of them in my shed....
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,262
    Andy_JS said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    "Johnson’s failure to apologise for party-gate is making matters worse"

    Is it?

    Tory MPs seem fine with it...

    Source?
    No VoNC?
    There was never going to be one during a war situation.
    There was never going to be one because Tory MPs don't want one.

    We aren't at war, and even if the Ukraine war stopped somehow, there won't be a VoNC.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    edited March 2022
    TimT said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disturbing. Young people less likely to support Ukraine and more likely to be pro-Russian in some countries.

    "Our polling reveals a striking generational divide on Ukraine
    Young people in America and Europe are less sympathetic towards it"

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/03/29/our-polling-reveals-a-striking-generational-divide-on-ukraine

    Isn't some at least of that a matter of youngsters not bothering to keep iup with the news/have an opinion?
    Maybe, but there's no excuse for "accidentally" supporting Russia because you haven't been taking an interest in the news.
    Nah, for this century America has been led by Bush 43 and Trump, you can see why people aren't enamoured by America.

    For some there's no difference between the invasion of Ukraine and the liberation of Iraq in 2003.
    I wonder if the yoof also think more globally than we old farts. Despite the fact I have lived most my life outside Britain (46/17 years out/in), I tend to think about Ukraine being a European war and hence 'our' problem, whereas Syria, Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Burma, Nagorny-Karabakh, etc... are really other peoples' problems (until we made them ours, where we did). So they are fundamentally different in my mind.

    But for many of the younger generation, it appears that what is front and centre for them is the contrast in how the West has reacted to 'like' situations, and hence for them the hypocrisy in our actions.
    I don't really understand how the cry of hypocrisy, even if true, leads some to equivocate on the issue, or even support Russia, though. It's bonkers!

    But then having just entered the 35-54 demographic I've transitioned into middle age fart status.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,486

    Toms said:

    Leon said:


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    That's not very friendly

    Imagine if Russian planes were overflying Britain WITH NUKES ON BOARD

    Edit: NB there is a Swedish expert on that thread who is highly skeptical that this happened, so who knows
    What happens if a plane carrying a nuke is shot down? Do they, for example, rig it so the thing then detonates?
    It depends how insane they are.

    In the Goode Olde Days of the cold war, everyone spent lots of time and money trying to make sure their nukes didn't go bang Until The Day. Lots of tests (actual nuclear tests) to make sure of this.

    There were, in fact quite a few instances where aircraft crashed with nukes on board. Or the nukes fell off. Or were involved in a fire. In a number of instances the conventional explosives went off, but no nuclear yield.
    Greenham Common was one such.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076

    Toms said:

    Leon said:


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    That's not very friendly

    Imagine if Russian planes were overflying Britain WITH NUKES ON BOARD

    Edit: NB there is a Swedish expert on that thread who is highly skeptical that this happened, so who knows
    What happens if a plane carrying a nuke is shot down? Do they, for example, rig it so the thing then detonates?
    It depends how insane they are.

    In the Goode Olde Days of the cold war, everyone spent lots of time and money trying to make sure their nukes didn't go bang Until The Day. Lots of tests (actual nuclear tests) to make sure of this.

    There were, in fact quite a few instances where aircraft crashed with nukes on board. Or the nukes fell off. Or were involved in a fire. In a number of instances the conventional explosives went off, but no nuclear yield.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_nuclear_accidents

    fairly sure there's some bombs unaccounted for ...
    Yes, quite a few.

    Note that the Russians haven't admitted how many they have lost. Given their habits with submarines, for a start, that's quite a few....
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,464
    edited March 2022

    As for the trans debate, the people who have done the most damage to trans rights are people like the trans person who proceeded to rape a female patient in a single sex ward, and people the swimmer who became a female swimmer while full of testosterone. Knowing a couple of trans people myself, I'm sure the majority would just like to get on with their lives and be accepted by society just like everyone else - idiots such as the two examples above have sadly made such a reasonable aim a lot more difficult.

    I disagree.

    There has to be a place for everyone in my view, whatever their reality, family and community have to adapt to that reality. As Felix fairly flagged up to me, but is that not a bit preachy, telling people what to think, telling people they “have to adapt” like that? and my reply was yes it is, but both sides do sound a bit preachy at each other in this particular debate.

    Whatever side of this debate we are in, just be loving to each other and debate things like this in the most sensitive and fair way we can. And that’s not really been happening, that’s basically the only thing I have waded in to say - we can debate this better than this? Actually, it’s Even worse, weaponising this issue as a political football? throwing it into “woke” and “culture wars”? Such posts and posters stand out like a sore thumb on this blog. They either don’t realise this enough to be embarrassed, or wear it as a medal.

    Which brings me to my disagreement with your post, your trans friends in my opinion have the right to be out the closet, and accepted - so is it right and fair for anyone (and it is Conservatives and anti-trans feminists who are the biggest villains) to weaponise “man in a dress” stereotypes, and ask questions like “can a women have a penis?” Using those stereotype and others against the entire trans community - does this does not lead to mockery of trans people, abuse and social exclusion? 😕

    Something which may be useful to the trans debate. On the subject of being gay girly, very much of the 💋variety, I always felt myself more readily accepted by the men in my life than the lady’s. I wonder if gay men have felt more readily accepted by ladies, than other men?
    Or straight people muse for lessons learned over how they themselves felt or acted on these things in their own lives.

    If there is to be a place for everyone, whatever their reality, family and community have to adapt to that reality, so the alternative point of view has to be bravely engaged with. What is this alternative being argued for? Are people quick to say they are not very religious, not Christian, but then argue for a outdated and discredited gender binary concepts they have been socialised into? 🤔
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,485
    As an aside, someone in NASA was tasked to write the operational history of the Shuttle after its last flight in 2011. He had a few interns to help him with the work. They assembled a draft, and asked the interns to read it, looking for any terms they did not understand and which needed explanation. The idea being that the history might be a little too technical.

    One of the interns asked: "What is the Cold War?"

    Despite bring bright enough to get an internship at NASA, she did not know about the Cold War. Which had ended just twenty years earlier...

    Many modern kids probably know less about it.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    kle4 said:

    TimT said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disturbing. Young people less likely to support Ukraine and more likely to be pro-Russian in some countries.

    "Our polling reveals a striking generational divide on Ukraine
    Young people in America and Europe are less sympathetic towards it"

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/03/29/our-polling-reveals-a-striking-generational-divide-on-ukraine

    Isn't some at least of that a matter of youngsters not bothering to keep iup with the news/have an opinion?
    Maybe, but there's no excuse for "accidentally" supporting Russia because you haven't been taking an interest in the news.
    Nah, for this century America has been led by Bush 43 and Trump, you can see why people aren't enamoured by America.

    For some there's no difference between the invasion of Ukraine and the liberation of Iraq in 2003.
    I wonder if the yoof also think more globally than we old farts. Despite the fact I have lived most my life outside Britain (46/17 years out/in), I tend to think about Ukraine being a European war and hence 'our' problem, whereas Syria, Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Burma, Nagorny-Karabakh, etc... are really other peoples' problems (until we made them ours, where we did). So they are fundamentally different in my mind.

    But for many of the younger generation, it appears that what is front and centre for them is the contrast in how the West has reacted to 'like' situations, and hence for them the hypocrisy in our actions.
    I don't really understand how the cry of hypocrisy, even if true, leads some to equivocate on the issue, or even support Russia, though. It's bonkers!

    But then having just entered the 35-54 demographic I've transitioned into middle age fart status.
    "Sticking it to the man"?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    As an aside, someone in NASA was tasked to write the operational history of the Shuttle after its last flight in 2011. He had a few interns to help him with the work. They assembled a draft, and asked the interns to read it, looking for any terms they did not understand and which needed explanation. The idea being that the history might be a little too technical.

    One of the interns asked: "What is the Cold War?"

    Despite bring bright enough to get an internship at NASA, she did not know about the Cold War. Which had ended just twenty years earlier...

    Many modern kids probably know less about it.

    That is a concern. It shouldn't be hard to know what it was, even if you (like me - too recent) know virtually nothing about the events within it.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    Carnyx said:

    Toms said:

    Leon said:


    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    43m
    BREAKING:

    Swedish TV4 has revealed that two of the four Russian aircraft that violated Swedish airspace a few weeks ago, were carrying nuclear weapons while doing it.

    Swedes are outraged.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1509194414564032516

    That's not very friendly

    Imagine if Russian planes were overflying Britain WITH NUKES ON BOARD

    Edit: NB there is a Swedish expert on that thread who is highly skeptical that this happened, so who knows
    What happens if a plane carrying a nuke is shot down? Do they, for example, rig it so the thing then detonates?
    It depends how insane they are.

    In the Goode Olde Days of the cold war, everyone spent lots of time and money trying to make sure their nukes didn't go bang Until The Day. Lots of tests (actual nuclear tests) to make sure of this.

    There were, in fact quite a few instances where aircraft crashed with nukes on board. Or the nukes fell off. Or were involved in a fire. In a number of instances the conventional explosives went off, but no nuclear yield.
    I've read a few accounts ofd that sort of thing. There is one swamp in the US where the rod-like piece of very dense plutonium in the middle of the fusion element of an H-bomb went straight into the ground from a height and could never be recovered - thought to be about 180' deep.

    However, the other bomb managed to arm itself to some extent. 'Until my death I will never forget hearing my sergeant [Earl Smith] say, "Lieutenant, we found the arm/safe switch." And I said, "Great." He said, "Not great. It's on arm."'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_Goldsboro_B-52_crash
    People are still arguing on that one. The tritium injection hadn't activated and the neutron generator hadn't charged, so a significant yield wasn't possible.
    image

    ...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    The inevitable question once again - what took up the entire hour.

    Just finished an hour-long conversation with POTUS. Shared assessment of the situation on the battlefield and at the negotiating table. Talked about specific defensive support, a new package of enhanced sanctions, macro-financial and humanitarian aid.

    https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1509202046574022656?cxt=HHwWgMCyhf3Q4fEpAAAA
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,098

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @MoonRabbit


    "Macron is a goner. Do you believe me now?

    Macron, Boris, sacked in same year - Putin survives the year."


    I am beginning to get weird feelings in me waters about France. There is an awful lot of discontent. As a nation, they haven't thrown a total strop in decades. They like global attention. Le Pen has detoxed the brand and is gathering all the opposition around her. Macron is fecking annoying, even for the French (esp the French?). He is a snob

    Le Pen could just snatch it.

    As it happens, if she did, I don't think it would be Fascist Apocalypse, more like a spasm of Gaullist Nationalism, but it would frighten all the horses of Europe


    Indeed, Macron is most popular amongst the rich, Parisians and the highly educated. Most of the rest of France loathes him.

    I still think he will win it but Le Pen has sufficiently detoxified the brand she is more of a viable alternative than 5 years ago or than her father ever was. Even if Macron is re elected, Le Pen will probably win the white working class vote and the rural vote
    Bet365 has Macron at 1/33, which is ridiculous in the light of that poll. Le Pen is within touching distance

    Like you, I am still pretty sure Macron will win, but in a time of war and plague - literally - nothing is as certain as 1/33
    Some things are. I and many others laid Trump as next President in December last year on Betfair to the tune of thousands - not a huge % return, but better than a bank and just as safe. It was taking free money from fantasists.

    I accept this isn't on that level, but think you're underestimating how likely the likely outcome is here.
    A YES vote in Scotland seemed impossible - until it became highly possible, and David Cameron started weeping on live TV. A Brexit vote seemed ludicrously unlikely - I recall Richard Nabavi predicting it would be 70/30 Remain - and then Brexit won

    Ditto Trump in, say, 2015

    We are in a time of unusual events
    Let's not rewrite history here.

    Polling for the 2016 Referendum often showed a lead for Leave. Polling for the 2016 Presidential election sometimes showed a Trump lead and often showed him within 2% (noting that was in fact the Clinton margin in the popular vote). A couple of polls showed a lead for "Yes" in the 2014, and most in the final six weeks indicated it was a good deal closer than the final, double digit margin.

    That's not to say Trump and Brexit weren't surprises - they were. But people misremember them as coming completely out of the blue when actually plenty of polls were bang on the money.

    Remember, we're not looking at polling a year out from the French Presidential election. It's a month out, with two well known figures and very stable polling over a long period. So your comparison with Trump a year from the 2016 election isn't apt.

    Nothing is impossible in a two horse race - I accept that. But you're always addicted to the drama and narrative arc of these things and therefore tend to underestimate the likelihood that the thing that looks very likely to happen on the evidence will indeed happen.
    me? ADDICTED TO DRAMA????

    I confess I do love a bit of theatrics, however I should point out that I am not saying a Le Pen win is PROBABLE or even QUITE POSSIBLE

    Just a bit more possible than 14/1, and Macron is a bit less nailed on than 1/33

    Incidentally, you are possibly misremembering - slightly - the Scottish polling. It was not very close - ie NO was usually ahead by quite a distance - until one of the debates, Salmond versus Darling, August 25, when there was a noticeable shift towards YES. Just three weeks before the vote


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2014_Scottish_independence_referendum#2014

    That debate made a difference. And made it closer

    Last time Le Pen fucked up the debates. Expectations will be low. What if she over-performs, this time?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    edited March 2022
    TimT said:

    kle4 said:

    TimT said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disturbing. Young people less likely to support Ukraine and more likely to be pro-Russian in some countries.

    "Our polling reveals a striking generational divide on Ukraine
    Young people in America and Europe are less sympathetic towards it"

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/03/29/our-polling-reveals-a-striking-generational-divide-on-ukraine

    Isn't some at least of that a matter of youngsters not bothering to keep iup with the news/have an opinion?
    Maybe, but there's no excuse for "accidentally" supporting Russia because you haven't been taking an interest in the news.
    Nah, for this century America has been led by Bush 43 and Trump, you can see why people aren't enamoured by America.

    For some there's no difference between the invasion of Ukraine and the liberation of Iraq in 2003.
    I wonder if the yoof also think more globally than we old farts. Despite the fact I have lived most my life outside Britain (46/17 years out/in), I tend to think about Ukraine being a European war and hence 'our' problem, whereas Syria, Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Burma, Nagorny-Karabakh, etc... are really other peoples' problems (until we made them ours, where we did). So they are fundamentally different in my mind.

    But for many of the younger generation, it appears that what is front and centre for them is the contrast in how the West has reacted to 'like' situations, and hence for them the hypocrisy in our actions.
    I don't really understand how the cry of hypocrisy, even if true, leads some to equivocate on the issue, or even support Russia, though. It's bonkers!

    But then having just entered the 35-54 demographic I've transitioned into middle age fart status.
    "Sticking it to the man"?
    This is probably my prejudice toward the youth showing, but I wonder if they might be more inclined to this tendency as identified by David Baddiel the other day, though old people do it too - a corrollary being people thinking things must be more complicated than they are (and on Ukraine it is a very simple situation in terms of blame)

    I have a phrase for this, which is naive sophistication. People who think they will appear sophisticated, that is, by naively thinking, with a raised sophisticated eyebrow, that "nothing is what it seems." Truth is, quite a lot of things are what they seem.

    https://twitter.com/Baddiel/status/1508446158401769483?cxt=HHwWlsC4pb_yie8pAAAA
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,774

    On topic Boris Johnson is the kind of man to be caught in flagrante delicto with another woman by his wife and denying to his wife he was having an affair.
    Edith Artois : Rene! What are you doing with that serving girl?
    René Artois : You stupid woman! Can you not see? I am eloping!
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for @MoonRabbit


    "Macron is a goner. Do you believe me now?

    Macron, Boris, sacked in same year - Putin survives the year."


    I am beginning to get weird feelings in me waters about France. There is an awful lot of discontent. As a nation, they haven't thrown a total strop in decades. They like global attention. Le Pen has detoxed the brand and is gathering all the opposition around her. Macron is fecking annoying, even for the French (esp the French?). He is a snob

    Le Pen could just snatch it.

    As it happens, if she did, I don't think it would be Fascist Apocalypse, more like a spasm of Gaullist Nationalism, but it would frighten all the horses of Europe


    Indeed, Macron is most popular amongst the rich, Parisians and the highly educated. Most of the rest of France loathes him.

    I still think he will win it but Le Pen has sufficiently detoxified the brand she is more of a viable alternative than 5 years ago or than her father ever was. Even if Macron is re elected, Le Pen will probably win the white working class vote and the rural vote
    Bet365 has Macron at 1/33, which is ridiculous in the light of that poll. Le Pen is within touching distance

    Like you, I am still pretty sure Macron will win, but in a time of war and plague - literally - nothing is as certain as 1/33
    Some things are. I and many others laid Trump as next President in December last year on Betfair to the tune of thousands - not a huge % return, but better than a bank and just as safe. It was taking free money from fantasists.

    I accept this isn't on that level, but think you're underestimating how likely the likely outcome is here.
    A YES vote in Scotland seemed impossible - until it became highly possible, and David Cameron started weeping on live TV. A Brexit vote seemed ludicrously unlikely - I recall Richard Nabavi predicting it would be 70/30 Remain - and then Brexit won

    Ditto Trump in, say, 2015

    We are in a time of unusual events
    Let's not rewrite history here.

    Polling for the 2016 Referendum often showed a lead for Leave. Polling for the 2016 Presidential election sometimes showed a Trump lead and often showed him within 2% (noting that was in fact the Clinton margin in the popular vote). A couple of polls showed a lead for "Yes" in the 2014, and most in the final six weeks indicated it was a good deal closer than the final, double digit margin.

    That's not to say Trump and Brexit weren't surprises - they were. But people misremember them as coming completely out of the blue when actually plenty of polls were bang on the money.

    Remember, we're not looking at polling a year out from the French Presidential election. It's a month out, with two well known figures and very stable polling over a long period. So your comparison with Trump a year from the 2016 election isn't apt.

    Nothing is impossible in a two horse race - I accept that. But you're always addicted to the drama and narrative arc of these things and therefore tend to underestimate the likelihood that the thing that looks very likely to happen on the evidence will indeed happen.
    Its worth remembering that Brexit seemed a shock because "received wisdom" was people "couldn't" vote that way surely - not because the polls said they wouldn't.
  • kle4 said:

    The inevitable question once again - what took up the entire hour.

    Just finished an hour-long conversation with POTUS. Shared assessment of the situation on the battlefield and at the negotiating table. Talked about specific defensive support, a new package of enhanced sanctions, macro-financial and humanitarian aid.

    https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1509202046574022656?cxt=HHwWgMCyhf3Q4fEpAAAA

    Same with all conference calls. 15 minutes of the IT guy fiddling with wires to resolve a camera problem; 15 minutes of idle chit-chat ("How's Jill? What about the dogs?"); 15 minutes of someone or other saying "you're on mute"; and 15 minutes actual business.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,565
    TimT said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disturbing. Young people less likely to support Ukraine and more likely to be pro-Russian in some countries.

    "Our polling reveals a striking generational divide on Ukraine
    Young people in America and Europe are less sympathetic towards it"

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/03/29/our-polling-reveals-a-striking-generational-divide-on-ukraine

    Isn't some at least of that a matter of youngsters not bothering to keep iup with the news/have an opinion?
    Maybe, but there's no excuse for "accidentally" supporting Russia because you haven't been taking an interest in the news.
    Nah, for this century America has been led by Bush 43 and Trump, you can see why people aren't enamoured by America.

    For some there's no difference between the invasion of Ukraine and the liberation of Iraq in 2003.
    I wonder if the yoof also think more globally than we old farts. Despite the fact I have lived most my life outside Britain (46/17 years out/in), I tend to think about Ukraine being a European war and hence 'our' problem, whereas Syria, Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Burma, Nagorny-Karabakh, etc... are really other peoples' problems (until we made them ours, where we did). So they are fundamentally different in my mind.

    But for many of the younger generation, it appears that what is front and centre for them is the contrast in how the West has reacted to 'like' situations, and hence for them the hypocrisy in our actions.
    I doubt they care any more about other places.

    I suspect its more some embittered resentment of the western world which manifests itself in supporting anything opposed to it.
This discussion has been closed.