A question for historians will be whether Brexit might have been less shit if the man charged with "getting it done" wasn't such a buffoon.
Without BoZo there might be no Brexit.
Without BoZo it might have been better.
Without Bozo there would still have been Brexit. His part is far overplayed by his acolytes and his opponents.
Correct. It was Nigel Farage who really delivered Brexit. He brought his xenophobes along to join up with the perfectly reasonable we want to be able to raise VAT on home energy supplies thoughtful, considered Brexiters and together they all marched victoriously over the winning line.
We were always going to win when faced with the 'we don't care about democracy , just let Brussels tell us what to do' mob.
You see making sweeping statements which bear only the faintest of relationships to reality is quite easy when you get the hang of it. But then you already knew that as it is your style of argument on most matters.
Now Richard let's see if you can hold it together in a discussion with me; not always possible I have noted.
I don't think anyone can query Nigel Farage's pivotal role, over the course of several decades, in bringing about Brexit. I have often said that for this reason he must rank amongst the most successful politicians of our generation.
I know you don't like it because you are a come all ye kind of guy wrt immigration (as evidenced by your fantastic gesture in offering to house Ukranian refugees) but it was Farage who convinced or stoked up many people about immigration and then explained that by voting Brexit they would solve the problem.
That decent I want to zero rate VAT on home energy supplies Brexiters like yourself were on the same side as him is of course an embarrassment but I'm sure you will agree that the end result justified the means. Like sausages, the making of which being not something one should examine too closely.
Nigel Farage has been one of the most successful politicians of our time. A statement I make knowing he was never elected to parliament and that I hate his politics.
In other news I was interested to read private funding of nuclear fusion projects has overtaken public funding. I wonder whether the smaller fusion power projects will actually achieve a net energy gain much faster than the lumbering projects like Iter. Private money seems to be pouring in and I think that's a good sign.
Brexit has already significantly dented the underlying GDP growth rate, and foreign direct investment.
Although this has been masked, first by Covid, and now by supply shocks relating to the Ukraine war, it’s still there - like rust underneath the surface.
When Britain is once again the sick man of Europe, the "winners" of the referendum will be whining that the EU are making use of free trade and free movement to gain a competitive advantage against us...
Britain is already the sick man of Europe. Again, it’s hidden because the day to day news is about the latest thing rather than long-term trends.
The other thing is that old people - the bedrock of the Brexit vote - are less likely to notice the impact because they don’t work and house prices have continued to rise.
We were told by Remainers - quite gleefully - that the City of London would wither on the vine, eclipsed by Paris and Frankfurt.
Hur hur hur.....
I notice your posts often take a strange gloating style. It is quite odd and says more about you than anything else.
I think most analysts expected some loss of business from London, with the business going to various places - New York as well as some European cities.
I don’t remember anyone predicting - let alone “gleefully” - that London would be eclipsed.
Not that any city has a monopoly on such things, look at what the Chinese are doing to HK’s status as an entrepôt.
If you don't remember it then you do have a very selective memory. These pages were filled with claims that it would be the end of the City and that would be a disaster for the country - often by people who had spent years previously claiming that the City was some terrible evil that needed to be brought to heel as it was a disaster for the country.
Personally, I was hoping for the City to decamp somewhere else, and have been very disappointed by its failure to do so. The UK is far too dependent on financial services, and too many of the best mathematical, engineering and scientific brains end up there. Much better if they were to find themselves in industry instead.
Let’s assume it is the case that the UK is too dependent on financial services (I agree).
Is the answer to impair the financial industry, or encourage counterbalancing sectors elsewhere?
Brexit has already significantly dented the underlying GDP growth rate, and foreign direct investment.
Although this has been masked, first by Covid, and now by supply shocks relating to the Ukraine war, it’s still there - like rust underneath the surface.
When Britain is once again the sick man of Europe, the "winners" of the referendum will be whining that the EU are making use of free trade and free movement to gain a competitive advantage against us...
Britain is already the sick man of Europe. Again, it’s hidden because the day to day news is about the latest thing rather than long-term trends.
The other thing is that old people - the bedrock of the Brexit vote - are less likely to notice the impact because they don’t work and house prices have continued to rise.
We were told by Remainers - quite gleefully - that the City of London would wither on the vine, eclipsed by Paris and Frankfurt.
Hur hur hur.....
I notice your posts often take a strange gloating style. It is quite odd and says more about you than anything else.
I think most analysts expected some loss of business from London, with the business going to various places - New York as well as some European cities.
I don’t remember anyone predicting - let alone “gleefully” - that London would be eclipsed.
Not that any city has a monopoly on such things, look at what the Chinese are doing to HK’s status as an entrepôt.
If you don't remember it then you do have a very selective memory. These pages were filled with claims that it would be the end of the City and that would be a disaster for the country - often by people who had spent years previously claiming that the City was some terrible evil that needed to be brought to heel as it was a disaster for the country.
Personally, I was hoping for the City to decamp somewhere else, and have been very disappointed by its failure to do so. The UK is far too dependent on financial services, and too many of the best mathematical, engineering and scientific brains end up there. Much better if they were to find themselves in industry instead.
FS is an area where the UK has comparative advantage (still does, despite the regulatory complexity Brexit has left us with). Plus it's an industry which continues to import much of its talent - I am sceptical how much of the UK graduate base is deflected from a career in science by the lure of the city. The French, Italian, Dutch and Spanish graduate bases perhaps.
We are still a pretty diversified economy with strong life sciences, engineering, tech and other industries and while it does make sense to continue to try to diversify more I'm not sure the shock therapy of dismantling one of our success stories is the way to do it.
Brexiters also I believe underrate the effect of Brexit on the political culture.
Again, hard to quantify, but the UK is a more polarised country than before the Brexit vote, and the quality of governance has also declined.
(This is genie-out-of-the-bottle stuff. Rejoining the EU doesn’t fix this, and could even make it worse).
The inevitable conclusion of your argument is that no-one should ever argue for any form of change because of the fear that those who don't like it will get upset and retaliate.
Everything in politics is polarising. And the EU was only ever about politics in the end.
No, your taking what is an observation to an absurd end. You’re also missing the point about governance quality.
But your observation to which I was replying is, in itself, absurd.
I merely pointed out that the UK is more polarised.
All great projects, as you point out, are polarising. Anti-slavery, women’s suffrage etc. The problem is, Brexit doesn’t quite have the moral quality of those struggles.
I sense that you are troubled by that, and seek to obfuscate it with rhetorical games.
Nah, I just don't care. So I am having fun with people and puncturing a few balloons. I genuinely forget how old you are so this is in no way meant as a put down but my formative years were filled with political and economic conflict culminating in the miners strikes and the Poll tax riots. The idea that the low level grumbling we see now is in anyway comparable to something like the Battle of the Bean Field or Orgreave just strikes me as rather daft.
Brexiters also I believe underrate the effect of Brexit on the political culture.
Again, hard to quantify, but the UK is a more polarised country than before the Brexit vote, and the quality of governance has also declined.
(This is genie-out-of-the-bottle stuff. Rejoining the EU doesn’t fix this, and could even make it worse).
The inevitable conclusion of your argument is that no-one should ever argue for any form of change because of the fear that those who don't like it will get upset and retaliate.
Everything in politics is polarising. And the EU was only ever about politics in the end.
No, your taking what is an observation to an absurd end. You’re also missing the point about governance quality.
But your observation to which I was replying is, in itself, absurd.
I merely pointed out that the UK is more polarised.
All great projects, as you point out, are polarising. Anti-slavery, women’s suffrage etc. The problem is, Brexit doesn’t quite have the moral quality of those struggles.
I sense that you are troubled by that, and seek to obfuscate it with rhetorical games.
Nah, I just don't care. So I am having fun with people and puncturing a few balloons. I genuinely forget how old you are so this is in no way meant as a put down but my formative years were filled with political and economic conflict culminating in the miners strikes and the Poll tax riots. The idea that the low level grumbling we see now is in anyway comparable to something like the Battle of the Bean Field or Orgreave just strikes me as rather daft.
I’ve never even heard of the Battle or Bean Field which perhaps proves your point…
FPT: Leon said: » show previous quotes "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"
I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."
Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".
Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.
Sigh
There's not much more I can do than be honest. I would vote LEAVE again, and with much greater enthusiasm
Why?
Because last time I was genuinely very doubtful; I was worried about the impact on the UK economy; I was personally worried about the impact on London property prices (my main asset)
Any economic impact has been utterly dwarfed by the pandemic, making me much more relaxed about the comparatively trivial GDP hit of Brexit; London property has since had to weather a much fiercer storm - again, the pandemic - but seems to be doing fine now. Indeed London has a buzz at the moment (of course war and inflationary armageddon might ruin that, but that ain't Brexit)
Meanwhile the grotesque behaviour of the EU, the Commission etc over our exit and then other stuff like the vaccines, literally trying to smear UK vaccines out of spite because Brexit, and the general behaviour of Remoaners in the UK (trying to cancel democracy) and the eurocrats in Brussels (trying to thwart our departure) tells me that Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU
And the war shows me that democracy really is the best bulwark against autocracy
So that's why I would vote Leave with a confident smile, rather than a nervous gulp
The one big thing I regret is loss of Freedom of Movement. I hope one day we can find a new accommodation which restores it in some qualified form, for the benefit of all Brits AND Europeans
There. Now you can believe me or not, but that is what I think
It is a good essay, but I still sense you are trying to convince yourself, and maybe you are almost there. When I see you no longer post on the subject I will accept that the strategy of repetition compulsion (it is a somewhat disputed psychological phenomena) does work. The majority of the British public will still be a majority believing we were conned, but knowing we have to get on with it anyway, but perhaps they might consider a way of ensuring some sort of retribution on those that perpetrated the con.
I don't feel any need to go on about it. But when Remainers make the implication that Leavers would not now vote Leave, I do occasionally feel the need to pipe up that yes, I would still vote Leave knowing now what I knew then, for the reasons Leon sets out - not least the vaccines debacle. And yes, I'd like Brexit to work better. But let's not kid ourselves that membership worked perfectly either.
I voted remain because I thought it would all be a shambles. I’d vote leave if asked again because it wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be.
Fckn hell, how bad did you think it would be, global pandemic and brink of nuclear armageddon bad?
We were warned about the loss of trade, queues at the border, the collapse in the £, about losing our place on the world stage; we were even warned about World War Three. But Project Fear never went as far as predicting global plague!
On the City, what I've noticed is that it's the default option for smart people who don't like what they were doing in their previous industry, whether that's engineering, science or anything else. I was a software developer working 60-80h per week before I left for a City career where I worked the same 60-80 hour week but at least got paid well for my time.
I don't think it is a big lure for people who enjoy what they do and I'm not sure losing disinterested engineers or scientists from those fields to the City is really a huge deal.
A question for historians will be whether Brexit might have been less shit if the man charged with "getting it done" wasn't such a buffoon.
Without BoZo there might be no Brexit.
Without BoZo it might have been better.
Without Bozo there would still have been Brexit. His part is far overplayed by his acolytes and his opponents.
Correct. It was Nigel Farage who really delivered Brexit. He brought his xenophobes along to join up with the perfectly reasonable we want to be able to raise VAT on home energy supplies thoughtful, considered Brexiters and together they all marched victoriously over the winning line.
We were always going to win when faced with the 'we don't care about democracy , just let Brussels tell us what to do' mob.
You see making sweeping statements which bear only the faintest of relationships to reality is quite easy when you get the hang of it. But then you already knew that as it is your style of argument on most matters.
Now Richard let's see if you can hold it together in a discussion with me; not always possible I have noted.
I don't think anyone can query Nigel Farage's pivotal role, over the course of several decades, in bringing about Brexit. I have often said that for this reason he must rank amongst the most successful politicians of our generation.
I know you don't like it because you are a come all ye kind of guy wrt immigration (as evidenced by your fantastic gesture in offering to house Ukranian refugees) but it was Farage who convinced or stoked up many people about immigration and then explained that by voting Brexit they would solve the problem.
That decent I want to zero rate VAT on home energy supplies Brexiters like yourself were on the same side as him is of course an embarrassment but I'm sure you will agree that the end result justified the means. Like sausages, the making of which being not something one should examine too closely.
Another one with a very selective memory. I spent many happy hours on here both before and after the referendum arguing that whilst Farage had been pivotal in getting the referendum, once it had been secured he was nothing but a liability to the campaign to actually win it. Indeed I included such an argument in at least one of the headers I wrote prior to the vote. Of course that doesn't sit well with your rather selective narrative.
I was in no way embarrassed to be on the same side as him any more than Churchill was embarrassed to be on the same side as Stalin or you were embarrassed to be on the same side as Neil Kinnock and Sinn Féin. The difference is that I saw him as a liability rather than an asset in the campaign and he could very easily have lost it for us.
Maybe maybe not. He certainly rallied the (xenophobic, foreigner-hating) troops who might not even have known there was a vote taking place otherwise with all the complicated talk of sovereignty. With such people he got out the vote. Whereas of course perhaps many Remainers might have been complacent enough not to vote thinking that no one in their right mind would vote Leave and of course they were wrong.
Nothing wrong with being on the side of Neil Kinnock and Sinn Féin why would there be? You I thought were a fan of nationalist self-determination.
Well Kinnock was a useless toss pot and ended up a laughing stock and Sinn Féin were in favour of and apologists for blowing people up to achieve their political ends. I would suggest there is a fair bit to be at least a little unnerved by in such associations.
Brexiters also I believe underrate the effect of Brexit on the political culture.
Again, hard to quantify, but the UK is a more polarised country than before the Brexit vote, and the quality of governance has also declined.
(This is genie-out-of-the-bottle stuff. Rejoining the EU doesn’t fix this, and could even make it worse).
The inevitable conclusion of your argument is that no-one should ever argue for any form of change because of the fear that those who don't like it will get upset and retaliate.
Everything in politics is polarising. And the EU was only ever about politics in the end.
No, your taking what is an observation to an absurd end. You’re also missing the point about governance quality.
But your observation to which I was replying is, in itself, absurd.
I merely pointed out that the UK is more polarised.
All great projects, as you point out, are polarising. Anti-slavery, women’s suffrage etc. The problem is, Brexit doesn’t quite have the moral quality of those struggles.
I sense that you are troubled by that, and seek to obfuscate it with rhetorical games.
And that takes us back to That Speech.
My reading of its aim was to flatter both the speaker and the audience by grabbing the coattails of a real heroic struggle against a real evil empire.
On the City, what I've noticed is that it's the default option for smart people who don't like what they were doing in their previous industry, whether that's engineering, science or anything else. I was a software developer working 60-80h per week before I left for a City career where I worked the same 60-80 hour week but at least got paid well for my time.
I don't think it is a big lure for people who enjoy what they do and I'm not sure losing disinterested engineers or scientists from those fields to the City is really a huge deal.
Software engineering market is crazy at the moment.
I have been waiting for a “return to DUP” effect as Unionists realise they are about to see a Nationalist First Minister.
Hasn’t happened.
Given Stormont is entirely STV PR not FPTP a vote by Unionist hardliners for TUV not DUP makes little difference to the number of Unionist MLAs elected.
The DUP has already withdrawn from the NI Executive anyway so would refuse to appoint the FM even if they won most seats.
Yes although what is the point in people voting DUP and not either UUP or TUV? There's also been rumours that Jeffrey Donaldson could resign his MLA seat (if he gets elected in Lagan Valley) to stay in Westminster.
FPT: Leon said: » show previous quotes "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"
I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."
Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".
Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.
Sigh
There's not much more I can do than be honest. I would vote LEAVE again, and with much greater enthusiasm
Why?
Because last time I was genuinely very doubtful; I was worried about the impact on the UK economy; I was personally worried about the impact on London property prices (my main asset)
Any economic impact has been utterly dwarfed by the pandemic, making me much more relaxed about the comparatively trivial GDP hit of Brexit; London property has since had to weather a much fiercer storm - again, the pandemic - but seems to be doing fine now. Indeed London has a buzz at the moment (of course war and inflationary armageddon might ruin that, but that ain't Brexit)
Meanwhile the grotesque behaviour of the EU, the Commission etc over our exit and then other stuff like the vaccines, literally trying to smear UK vaccines out of spite because Brexit, and the general behaviour of Remoaners in the UK (trying to cancel democracy) and the eurocrats in Brussels (trying to thwart our departure) tells me that Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU
And the war shows me that democracy really is the best bulwark against autocracy
So that's why I would vote Leave with a confident smile, rather than a nervous gulp
The one big thing I regret is loss of Freedom of Movement. I hope one day we can find a new accommodation which restores it in some qualified form, for the benefit of all Brits AND Europeans
There. Now you can believe me or not, but that is what I think
It is a good essay, but I still sense you are trying to convince yourself, and maybe you are almost there. When I see you no longer post on the subject I will accept that the strategy of repetition compulsion (it is a somewhat disputed psychological phenomena) does work. The majority of the British public will still be a majority believing we were conned, but knowing we have to get on with it anyway, but perhaps they might consider a way of ensuring some sort of retribution on those that perpetrated the con.
I don't feel any need to go on about it. But when Remainers make the implication that Leavers would not now vote Leave, I do occasionally feel the need to pipe up that yes, I would still vote Leave knowing now what I knew then, for the reasons Leon sets out - not least the vaccines debacle. And yes, I'd like Brexit to work better. But let's not kid ourselves that membership worked perfectly either.
I voted remain because I thought it would all be a shambles. I’d vote leave if asked again because it wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be.
Fckn hell, how bad did you think it would be, global pandemic and brink of nuclear armageddon bad?
We were warned about the loss of trade, queues at the border, the collapse in the £, about losing our place on the world stage; we were even warned about World War Three. But Project Fear never went as far as predicting global plague!
We got all of those in indyref 1, right down to WW3.
A question for historians will be whether Brexit might have been less shit if the man charged with "getting it done" wasn't such a buffoon.
Without BoZo there might be no Brexit.
Without BoZo it might have been better.
Without Bozo there would still have been Brexit. His part is far overplayed by his acolytes and his opponents.
Correct. It was Nigel Farage who really delivered Brexit. He brought his xenophobes along to join up with the perfectly reasonable we want to be able to raise VAT on home energy supplies thoughtful, considered Brexiters and together they all marched victoriously over the winning line.
We were always going to win when faced with the 'we don't care about democracy , just let Brussels tell us what to do' mob.
You see making sweeping statements which bear only the faintest of relationships to reality is quite easy when you get the hang of it. But then you already knew that as it is your style of argument on most matters.
Now Richard let's see if you can hold it together in a discussion with me; not always possible I have noted.
I don't think anyone can query Nigel Farage's pivotal role, over the course of several decades, in bringing about Brexit. I have often said that for this reason he must rank amongst the most successful politicians of our generation.
I know you don't like it because you are a come all ye kind of guy wrt immigration (as evidenced by your fantastic gesture in offering to house Ukranian refugees) but it was Farage who convinced or stoked up many people about immigration and then explained that by voting Brexit they would solve the problem.
That decent I want to zero rate VAT on home energy supplies Brexiters like yourself were on the same side as him is of course an embarrassment but I'm sure you will agree that the end result justified the means. Like sausages, the making of which being not something one should examine too closely.
Another one with a very selective memory. I spent many happy hours on here both before and after the referendum arguing that whilst Farage had been pivotal in getting the referendum, once it had been secured he was nothing but a liability to the campaign to actually win it. Indeed I included such an argument in at least one of the headers I wrote prior to the vote. Of course that doesn't sit well with your rather selective narrative.
I was in no way embarrassed to be on the same side as him any more than Churchill was embarrassed to be on the same side as Stalin or you were embarrassed to be on the same side as Neil Kinnock and Sinn Féin. The difference is that I saw him as a liability rather than an asset in the campaign and he could very easily have lost it for us.
Maybe maybe not. He certainly rallied the (xenophobic, foreigner-hating) troops who might not even have known there was a vote taking place otherwise with all the complicated talk of sovereignty. With such people he got out the vote. Whereas of course perhaps many Remainers might have been complacent enough not to vote thinking that no one in their right mind would vote Leave and of course they were wrong.
Nothing wrong with being on the side of Neil Kinnock and Sinn Féin why would there be? You I thought were a fan of nationalist self-determination.
Well Kinnock was a useless toss pot and ended up a laughing stock and Sinn Féin were in favour of and apologists for blowing people up to achieve their political ends. I would suggest there is a fair bit to be at least a little unnerved by in such associations.
Alternatively Kinnock did what Starmer is trying to do I'm not sure what makes him useless or a toss pot, save for not winning the election but again that doesn't make me embarrassed to be on the same side as him.
And ah Sinn Féin. They believe in a united Ireland; wholly understandable. They believe in it so much that they employed violence to try to achieve it. I suppose it's the one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter thing but again I am not embarrassed to have shared the political aim of remaining in the EU.
People underestimate how big a deal the UK’s FS industry is.
The UK is a services “superpower”; we’re the global number two, after the US. We export over 50% as much services as the US with 1/6 the population.
Very mostly, this is FS and the ancillary services that come with FS (consulting, accounting, software, even legal services), and very very much this is being generated in London.
Aside from that, whisky in Scotland, and some life sciences in Cambridge, the rest of the economy is highly meh, at least at a global level.
On the City, what I've noticed is that it's the default option for smart people who don't like what they were doing in their previous industry, whether that's engineering, science or anything else. I was a software developer working 60-80h per week before I left for a City career where I worked the same 60-80 hour week but at least got paid well for my time.
I don't think it is a big lure for people who enjoy what they do and I'm not sure losing disinterested engineers or scientists from those fields to the City is really a huge deal.
Software engineering market is crazy at the moment.
Indeed, I know a startup that has a £10k referral bounty for senior engineers.
Brexiters also I believe underrate the effect of Brexit on the political culture.
Again, hard to quantify, but the UK is a more polarised country than before the Brexit vote, and the quality of governance has also declined.
(This is genie-out-of-the-bottle stuff. Rejoining the EU doesn’t fix this, and could even make it worse).
The inevitable conclusion of your argument is that no-one should ever argue for any form of change because of the fear that those who don't like it will get upset and retaliate.
Everything in politics is polarising. And the EU was only ever about politics in the end.
No, your taking what is an observation to an absurd end. You’re also missing the point about governance quality.
But your observation to which I was replying is, in itself, absurd.
I merely pointed out that the UK is more polarised.
All great projects, as you point out, are polarising. Anti-slavery, women’s suffrage etc. The problem is, Brexit doesn’t quite have the moral quality of those struggles.
I sense that you are troubled by that, and seek to obfuscate it with rhetorical games.
Nah, I just don't care. So I am having fun with people and puncturing a few balloons. I genuinely forget how old you are so this is in no way meant as a put down but my formative years were filled with political and economic conflict culminating in the miners strikes and the Poll tax riots. The idea that the low level grumbling we see now is in anyway comparable to something like the Battle of the Bean Field or Orgreave just strikes me as rather daft.
I’ve never even heard of the Battle or Bean Field which perhaps proves your point…
It depends what your outlook was at the time. If you were a Middle Class Tory voter I am sure it was just the police sorting out a few crusties and putting them in their place. If you had any bent towards libertarianism or were generally anti-Government then even if you were not much of fan of the travellers at the very least it sounded a lot of warning bells about politically directed police being able to attack people at will and get away with it.
On the City, what I've noticed is that it's the default option for smart people who don't like what they were doing in their previous industry, whether that's engineering, science or anything else. I was a software developer working 60-80h per week before I left for a City career where I worked the same 60-80 hour week but at least got paid well for my time.
I don't think it is a big lure for people who enjoy what they do and I'm not sure losing disinterested engineers or scientists from those fields to the City is really a huge deal.
Software engineering market is crazy at the moment.
Indeed, I know a startup that has a £10k referral bounty for senior engineers.
Brexiters also I believe underrate the effect of Brexit on the political culture.
Again, hard to quantify, but the UK is a more polarised country than before the Brexit vote, and the quality of governance has also declined.
(This is genie-out-of-the-bottle stuff. Rejoining the EU doesn’t fix this, and could even make it worse).
The inevitable conclusion of your argument is that no-one should ever argue for any form of change because of the fear that those who don't like it will get upset and retaliate.
Everything in politics is polarising. And the EU was only ever about politics in the end.
No, your taking what is an observation to an absurd end. You’re also missing the point about governance quality.
But your observation to which I was replying is, in itself, absurd.
I merely pointed out that the UK is more polarised.
All great projects, as you point out, are polarising. Anti-slavery, women’s suffrage etc. The problem is, Brexit doesn’t quite have the moral quality of those struggles.
I sense that you are troubled by that, and seek to obfuscate it with rhetorical games.
Nah, I just don't care. So I am having fun with people and puncturing a few balloons. I genuinely forget how old you are so this is in no way meant as a put down but my formative years were filled with political and economic conflict culminating in the miners strikes and the Poll tax riots. The idea that the low level grumbling we see now is in anyway comparable to something like the Battle of the Bean Field or Orgreave just strikes me as rather daft.
I’ve never even heard of the Battle or Bean Field which perhaps proves your point…
Extremely nasty incident down south. Police steamed into a hippy camp . A fairly sedate friend of mine saw it on TV and was absolutely incensed. I didn;t see it, but the news reports were pretty grim. And the Earl of Cardigan was one of the witnesses ... he owned the field.
Like the coal strike, it raised major issues about policing in the UK.
People underestimate how big a deal the UK’s FS industry is.
The UK is a services “superpower”; we’re the global number two, after the US. We export over 50% as much services as the US with 1/6 the population.
Very mostly, this is FS and the ancillary services that come with FS (consulting, accounting, software, even legal services), and very very much this is being generated in London.
Aside from that, whisky in Scotland, and some life sciences in Cambridge, the rest of the economy is highly meh, at least at a global level.
Taking the discussion back to fusion energy, the UK really seems to be building up a critical mass of fusion energy startups, it's an area where I think the government can really help as well with some well targeted tax breaks and a new rapid reactor approval process rather than the traditional 3-4 year process we have now for fission reactors.
FPT: Leon said: » show previous quotes "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"
I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."
Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".
Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.
Sigh
There's not much more I can do than be honest. I would vote LEAVE again, and with much greater enthusiasm
Why?
Because last time I was genuinely very doubtful; I was worried about the impact on the UK economy; I was personally worried about the impact on London property prices (my main asset)
Any economic impact has been utterly dwarfed by the pandemic, making me much more relaxed about the comparatively trivial GDP hit of Brexit; London property has since had to weather a much fiercer storm - again, the pandemic - but seems to be doing fine now. Indeed London has a buzz at the moment (of course war and inflationary armageddon might ruin that, but that ain't Brexit)
Meanwhile the grotesque behaviour of the EU, the Commission etc over our exit and then other stuff like the vaccines, literally trying to smear UK vaccines out of spite because Brexit, and the general behaviour of Remoaners in the UK (trying to cancel democracy) and the eurocrats in Brussels (trying to thwart our departure) tells me that Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU
And the war shows me that democracy really is the best bulwark against autocracy
So that's why I would vote Leave with a confident smile, rather than a nervous gulp
The one big thing I regret is loss of Freedom of Movement. I hope one day we can find a new accommodation which restores it in some qualified form, for the benefit of all Brits AND Europeans
There. Now you can believe me or not, but that is what I think
It is a good essay, but I still sense you are trying to convince yourself, and maybe you are almost there. When I see you no longer post on the subject I will accept that the strategy of repetition compulsion (it is a somewhat disputed psychological phenomena) does work. The majority of the British public will still be a majority believing we were conned, but knowing we have to get on with it anyway, but perhaps they might consider a way of ensuring some sort of retribution on those that perpetrated the con.
I don't feel any need to go on about it. But when Remainers make the implication that Leavers would not now vote Leave, I do occasionally feel the need to pipe up that yes, I would still vote Leave knowing now what I knew then, for the reasons Leon sets out - not least the vaccines debacle. And yes, I'd like Brexit to work better. But let's not kid ourselves that membership worked perfectly either.
I voted remain because I thought it would all be a shambles. I’d vote leave if asked again because it wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be.
Fckn hell, how bad did you think it would be, global pandemic and brink of nuclear armageddon bad?
We were warned about the loss of trade, queues at the border, the collapse in the £, about losing our place on the world stage; we were even warned about World War Three. But Project Fear never went as far as predicting global plague!
We got all of those in indyref 1, right down to WW3.
And aliens! Not the the illegal variety, though we got them as well.
People underestimate how big a deal the UK’s FS industry is.
The UK is a services “superpower”; we’re the global number two, after the US. We export over 50% as much services as the US with 1/6 the population.
Very mostly, this is FS and the ancillary services that come with FS (consulting, accounting, software, even legal services), and very very much this is being generated in London.
Aside from that, whisky in Scotland, and some life sciences in Cambridge, the rest of the economy is highly meh, at least at a global level.
We probably ought to be asking why that is.
And what it is that makes us so successful at it. The legal bit I can understand but elsewhere?
In a not necessarily unrelated point what sort of progress are we seeing with regards to freezing Russian assets in the crown dependency tax havens?
FPT: Leon said: » show previous quotes "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"
I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."
Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".
Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.
Sigh
There's not much more I can do than be honest. I would vote LEAVE again, and with much greater enthusiasm
Why?
Because last time I was genuinely very doubtful; I was worried about the impact on the UK economy; I was personally worried about the impact on London property prices (my main asset)
Any economic impact has been utterly dwarfed by the pandemic, making me much more relaxed about the comparatively trivial GDP hit of Brexit; London property has since had to weather a much fiercer storm - again, the pandemic - but seems to be doing fine now. Indeed London has a buzz at the moment (of course war and inflationary armageddon might ruin that, but that ain't Brexit)
Meanwhile the grotesque behaviour of the EU, the Commission etc over our exit and then other stuff like the vaccines, literally trying to smear UK vaccines out of spite because Brexit, and the general behaviour of Remoaners in the UK (trying to cancel democracy) and the eurocrats in Brussels (trying to thwart our departure) tells me that Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU
And the war shows me that democracy really is the best bulwark against autocracy
So that's why I would vote Leave with a confident smile, rather than a nervous gulp
The one big thing I regret is loss of Freedom of Movement. I hope one day we can find a new accommodation which restores it in some qualified form, for the benefit of all Brits AND Europeans
There. Now you can believe me or not, but that is what I think
It is a good essay, but I still sense you are trying to convince yourself, and maybe you are almost there. When I see you no longer post on the subject I will accept that the strategy of repetition compulsion (it is a somewhat disputed psychological phenomena) does work. The majority of the British public will still be a majority believing we were conned, but knowing we have to get on with it anyway, but perhaps they might consider a way of ensuring some sort of retribution on those that perpetrated the con.
I don't feel any need to go on about it. But when Remainers make the implication that Leavers would not now vote Leave, I do occasionally feel the need to pipe up that yes, I would still vote Leave knowing now what I knew then, for the reasons Leon sets out - not least the vaccines debacle. And yes, I'd like Brexit to work better. But let's not kid ourselves that membership worked perfectly either.
I voted remain because I thought it would all be a shambles. I’d vote leave if asked again because it wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be.
Fckn hell, how bad did you think it would be, global pandemic and brink of nuclear armageddon bad?
We were warned about the loss of trade, queues at the border, the collapse in the £, about losing our place on the world stage; we were even warned about World War Three. But Project Fear never went as far as predicting global plague!
We got all of those in indyref 1, right down to WW3.
And aliens! Not the the illegal variety, though we got them as well.
So we did. But, as with the crash of the poind, losing our place on the world stage, queues at the border, loss of trade etc. plus losing our place in the EU, we're getting them anyway (the aliens according to Leon, that is).
People underestimate how big a deal the UK’s FS industry is.
The UK is a services “superpower”; we’re the global number two, after the US. We export over 50% as much services as the US with 1/6 the population.
Very mostly, this is FS and the ancillary services that come with FS (consulting, accounting, software, even legal services), and very very much this is being generated in London.
Aside from that, whisky in Scotland, and some life sciences in Cambridge, the rest of the economy is highly meh, at least at a global level.
Taking the discussion back to fusion energy, the UK really seems to be building up a critical mass of fusion energy startups, it's an area where I think the government can really help as well with some well targeted tax breaks and a new rapid reactor approval process rather than the traditional 3-4 year process we have now for fission reactors.
Sounds very promising.
But I just despair at the approach of Rishi “no growth” Sunak and the lunatics at Treasury.
On the City, what I've noticed is that it's the default option for smart people who don't like what they were doing in their previous industry, whether that's engineering, science or anything else. I was a software developer working 60-80h per week before I left for a City career where I worked the same 60-80 hour week but at least got paid well for my time.
I don't think it is a big lure for people who enjoy what they do and I'm not sure losing disinterested engineers or scientists from those fields to the City is really a huge deal.
That is a fair point. I had a choice after Business School to go back into consultancy and decided that the City was probably a better option - not because I loved it but, as you said, you would get paid more for what you did.
The irony is that, longer-term, it would have been better to stick with consultancy...
Brexiters also I believe underrate the effect of Brexit on the political culture.
Again, hard to quantify, but the UK is a more polarised country than before the Brexit vote, and the quality of governance has also declined.
(This is genie-out-of-the-bottle stuff. Rejoining the EU doesn’t fix this, and could even make it worse).
The inevitable conclusion of your argument is that no-one should ever argue for any form of change because of the fear that those who don't like it will get upset and retaliate.
Everything in politics is polarising. And the EU was only ever about politics in the end.
No, your taking what is an observation to an absurd end. You’re also missing the point about governance quality.
But your observation to which I was replying is, in itself, absurd.
I merely pointed out that the UK is more polarised.
All great projects, as you point out, are polarising. Anti-slavery, women’s suffrage etc. The problem is, Brexit doesn’t quite have the moral quality of those struggles.
I sense that you are troubled by that, and seek to obfuscate it with rhetorical games.
Nah, I just don't care. So I am having fun with people and puncturing a few balloons. I genuinely forget how old you are so this is in no way meant as a put down but my formative years were filled with political and economic conflict culminating in the miners strikes and the Poll tax riots. The idea that the low level grumbling we see now is in anyway comparable to something like the Battle of the Bean Field or Orgreave just strikes me as rather daft.
I’ve never even heard of the Battle or Bean Field which perhaps proves your point…
Extremely nasty incident down south. Police steamed into a hippy camp . A fairly sedate friend of mine saw it on TV and was absolutely incensed. I didn;t see it, but the news reports were pretty grim. And the Earl of Cardigan was one of the witnesses ... he owned the field.
Like the coal strike, it raised major issues about policing in the UK.
This means nothing to me and I was 30 at the time and into politics big time. I can only assume I was away at the time. I thought when I looked it up it would all ring bells. Nope.
Slightly odd OGH saying the Scottish local elections will have an impact on the future of the UK. They will have zero impact beyond potholes and housing and social care in Scottish local authorities. The UK government will continue to refuse indyref2 as it has since last year when the SNP failed to get a Holyrood majority.
The Stormont elections might be more significant for the Union but even there Unionist parties should still win more seats than Nationalists overall even if SF come top and the Alliance oppose a border poll for now anyway
People underestimate how big a deal the UK’s FS industry is.
The UK is a services “superpower”; we’re the global number two, after the US. We export over 50% as much services as the US with 1/6 the population.
Very mostly, this is FS and the ancillary services that come with FS (consulting, accounting, software, even legal services), and very very much this is being generated in London.
Aside from that, whisky in Scotland, and some life sciences in Cambridge, the rest of the economy is highly meh, at least at a global level.
Taking the discussion back to fusion energy, the UK really seems to be building up a critical mass of fusion energy startups, it's an area where I think the government can really help as well with some well targeted tax breaks and a new rapid reactor approval process rather than the traditional 3-4 year process we have now for fission reactors.
Sounds very promising.
But I just despair at the approach of Rishi “no growth” Sunak and the lunatics at Treasury.
Indeed, I worry that Rishi is just a slicker clone of Philip Hammond, another chancellor who could only ever see the cost of doing something. What we really need is someone to come in as chancellor and destroy the current treasury orthodoxy, Rishi just doesn't seem like someone who will do that.
People underestimate how big a deal the UK’s FS industry is.
The UK is a services “superpower”; we’re the global number two, after the US. We export over 50% as much services as the US with 1/6 the population.
Very mostly, this is FS and the ancillary services that come with FS (consulting, accounting, software, even legal services), and very very much this is being generated in London.
Aside from that, whisky in Scotland, and some life sciences in Cambridge, the rest of the economy is highly meh, at least at a global level.
Taking the discussion back to fusion energy, the UK really seems to be building up a critical mass of fusion energy startups, it's an area where I think the government can really help as well with some well targeted tax breaks and a new rapid reactor approval process rather than the traditional 3-4 year process we have now for fission reactors.
Sounds very promising.
But I just despair at the approach of Rishi “no growth” Sunak and the lunatics at Treasury.
Indeed, I worry that Rishi is just a slicker clone of Philip Hammond, another chancellor who could only ever see the cost of doing something. What we really need is someone to come in as chancellor and destroy the current treasury orthodoxy, Rishi just doesn't seem like someone who will do that.
Rishi is even worse than Hammond. Rishi is an ideologue on behalf of the existing orthodoxy, whereas Hammond was just a do-nothing.
On the City, what I've noticed is that it's the default option for smart people who don't like what they were doing in their previous industry, whether that's engineering, science or anything else. I was a software developer working 60-80h per week before I left for a City career where I worked the same 60-80 hour week but at least got paid well for my time.
I don't think it is a big lure for people who enjoy what they do and I'm not sure losing disinterested engineers or scientists from those fields to the City is really a huge deal.
That is a fair point. I had a choice after Business School to go back into consultancy and decided that the City was probably a better option - not because I loved it but, as you said, you would get paid more for what you did.
The irony is that, longer-term, it would have been better to stick with consultancy...
On the City, what I've noticed is that it's the default option for smart people who don't like what they were doing in their previous industry, whether that's engineering, science or anything else. I was a software developer working 60-80h per week before I left for a City career where I worked the same 60-80 hour week but at least got paid well for my time.
I don't think it is a big lure for people who enjoy what they do and I'm not sure losing disinterested engineers or scientists from those fields to the City is really a huge deal.
That is a fair point. I had a choice after Business School to go back into consultancy and decided that the City was probably a better option - not because I loved it but, as you said, you would get paid more for what you did.
The irony is that, longer-term, it would have been better to stick with consultancy...
Care to elaborate on your final point?
Depending on the field, consultancy rates in London are upwards of £3k per day right now, I've seen some advertising their time for £10k per day outside IR35. Not sure how much work they get though.
European Council president, Charles Michel, is to meet with Boris Johnson to discuss issues surrounding the Northern Ireland Protocol
In a call this afternoon the PM told Michel that solutions must be found in order to protect peace and stability and safeguard the Good Friday agreement in all its dimensions
European Council president, Charles Michel, is to meet with Boris Johnson to discuss issues surrounding the Northern Ireland Protocol
In a call this afternoon the PM told Michel that solutions must be found in order to protect peace and stability and safeguard the Good Friday agreement in all its dimensions
Bit late for him to admit that he hasn;t found a solution.
@Telegraph 🇷🇺Russia has said it is abandoning peace talks with Japan, which were aimed at signing a formal World War II peace treaty, due to Tokyo's tough response on Ukraine
People underestimate how big a deal the UK’s FS industry is.
The UK is a services “superpower”; we’re the global number two, after the US. We export over 50% as much services as the US with 1/6 the population.
Very mostly, this is FS and the ancillary services that come with FS (consulting, accounting, software, even legal services), and very very much this is being generated in London.
Aside from that, whisky in Scotland, and some life sciences in Cambridge, the rest of the economy is highly meh, at least at a global level.
Taking the discussion back to fusion energy, the UK really seems to be building up a critical mass of fusion energy startups, it's an area where I think the government can really help as well with some well targeted tax breaks and a new rapid reactor approval process rather than the traditional 3-4 year process we have now for fission reactors.
Sounds very promising.
But I just despair at the approach of Rishi “no growth” Sunak and the lunatics at Treasury.
Indeed, I worry that Rishi is just a slicker clone of Philip Hammond, another chancellor who could only ever see the cost of doing something. What we really need is someone to come in as chancellor and destroy the current treasury orthodoxy, Rishi just doesn't seem like someone who will do that.
I am coming round to that view but let's see what wednesday brings
On the City, what I've noticed is that it's the default option for smart people who don't like what they were doing in their previous industry, whether that's engineering, science or anything else. I was a software developer working 60-80h per week before I left for a City career where I worked the same 60-80 hour week but at least got paid well for my time.
I don't think it is a big lure for people who enjoy what they do and I'm not sure losing disinterested engineers or scientists from those fields to the City is really a huge deal.
That is a fair point. I had a choice after Business School to go back into consultancy and decided that the City was probably a better option - not because I loved it but, as you said, you would get paid more for what you did.
The irony is that, longer-term, it would have been better to stick with consultancy...
Care to elaborate on your final point?
Max beat me to it but consultancy rates are very high for freelancers.
However, even if I had stuck with my old firm, I could have been earning 1m+ as a partner. You do not get that in banking these days unless you are in specific parts and very senior.
The Stormont elections might be more significant for the Union but even there Unionist parties should still win more seats than Nationalists overall even if SF come top and the Alliance oppose a border poll for now anyway
Alliance is the only party with really significant momentum although it could get messy for the unionists in terms of seats and Alliance and SDLP could be most transfer friendly. I'm not sure how the TUV gains more than a couple of seats (In North Antrim and East Antrim) and where UUP is likely to gain seats even if the DUP loses up to 8-10 seats.
SF also topped polled the poll in the 2010 Westminster election albeit with only 25.5%. The main story will be about chaos in the DUP.
75,000 people have booked their spring Covid booster since the service opened in England today. More than 7m people over 75 or immunosuppressed are eligible across the UK
On the City, what I've noticed is that it's the default option for smart people who don't like what they were doing in their previous industry, whether that's engineering, science or anything else. I was a software developer working 60-80h per week before I left for a City career where I worked the same 60-80 hour week but at least got paid well for my time.
I don't think it is a big lure for people who enjoy what they do and I'm not sure losing disinterested engineers or scientists from those fields to the City is really a huge deal.
That is a fair point. I had a choice after Business School to go back into consultancy and decided that the City was probably a better option - not because I loved it but, as you said, you would get paid more for what you did.
The irony is that, longer-term, it would have been better to stick with consultancy...
Care to elaborate on your final point?
Depending on the field, consultancy rates in London are upwards of £3k per day right now, I've seen some advertising their time for £10k per day outside IR35. Not sure how much work they get though.
More like, international maritime industry over the past 20 years....Filipinos and Ukrainians widely hired throughout the world on very low wages, long hours and limited time off.
"Some of P&O's ferries are registered in Cyprus, meaning they do not have to pay the minimum wage required by UK law."
Places like Panama and Cyprus are happy to take the vessel registration fees and unconcerned about terms and conditions of employees.
European Council president, Charles Michel, is to meet with Boris Johnson to discuss issues surrounding the Northern Ireland Protocol
In a call this afternoon the PM told Michel that solutions must be found in order to protect peace and stability and safeguard the Good Friday agreement in all its dimensions
Bit late for him to admit that he hasn;t found a solution.
To be fair both sides do recognise there are issues and for those of us wanting a sensible solution this is promising
Indeed there were posters saying Boris has blown it in the EU while in the meantime both sides are talking and meeting
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
75,000 people have booked their spring Covid booster since the service opened in England today. More than 7m people over 75 or immunosuppressed are eligible across the UK
My dad is over 75 and I can book him in, but they say:
People are advised to wait 6 months since their previous dose to get maximum protection from a spring booster.
He had his booster on 25 October - should we wait until end of April?
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
Thanks for that so even stopping fire and hire in UK law would be irrelevant
75,000 people have booked their spring Covid booster since the service opened in England today. More than 7m people over 75 or immunosuppressed are eligible across the UK
My dad is over 75 and I can book him in, but they say:
People are advised to wait 6 months since their previous dose to get maximum protection from a spring booster.
He had his booster on 25 October - should we wait until end of April?
I personally wouldn't (depending on how vulnerable your father is). After 3 months protection starts to wane.
My father was jabbed in I believe the middle of October, got him booked in last night for later this week.
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
“Its because in reality there isn't much you can do”
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits the interests of their client vote.
- Cases - UP. But R is down in all age groups and across all regions. - In hospital - UP - Admissions - UP. R is steady, but above 1 - MV beds - Level(ish) - Deaths - Level(ish)
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
“Its because in reality there isn't much you can do”
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits their voters interests.
Sickening.
No they couldn't.
The ships are registered in Cyprus. This is international maritime rules, ship owners are free by these laws to register where ever they wish and the laws under which employees on those ships are governed is based upon the laws in that country. Even if Cyprus decide to up their minimum wage / reduce special carve outs for ship employees, there are many other countries such as Panama, who will happily accept their registration fee.
It requires an massive international agreement to change this situation, and one I doubt Panama is interested in doing so, as the current status quo is worth a vast amount of money to them.
It is well known fact in the industry that Filipinos are widely used because they will work for such very low rates of pay, long hours and limited holiday. It is slave labour.
The Stormont elections might be more significant for the Union but even there Unionist parties should still win more seats than Nationalists overall even if SF come top and the Alliance oppose a border poll for now anyway
Alliance is the only party with really significant momentum although it could get messy for the unionists in terms of seats and Alliance and SDLP could be most transfer friendly. I'm not sure how the TUV gains more than a couple of seats (In North Antrim and East Antrim) and where UUP is likely to gain seats even if the DUP loses up to 8-10 seats.
SF also topped polled the poll in the 2010 Westminster election albeit with only 25.5%. The main story will be about chaos in the DUP.
I think HYUFD defines Alliance as [quick edit] Unionist?
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
“Its because in reality there isn't much you can do”
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits their voters interests.
Sickening.
No they couldn't. The ship is registered in Cyprus. This is international maritime rules, ship owners are free by these laws to register where ever they wish. Even if Cyprus decide to up their minimum wage, there are many other countries such as Panama, who will happily accept their registration fee.
It is surprising that ferries plying a regular route are not regulated differently.
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
“Its because in reality there isn't much you can do”
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits their voters interests.
Fucking sickening.
I agree with you but just where do you have the link that HMG can enforce the minimum wage
I suspect that if a ship is sailing under Maritime law then there is little that you can do *
* other than to boycott it and in this case P&O Cruises as well
People underestimate how big a deal the UK’s FS industry is.
The UK is a services “superpower”; we’re the global number two, after the US. We export over 50% as much services as the US with 1/6 the population.
Very mostly, this is FS and the ancillary services that come with FS (consulting, accounting, software, even legal services), and very very much this is being generated in London.
Aside from that, whisky in Scotland, and some life sciences in Cambridge, the rest of the economy is highly meh, at least at a global level.
Taking the discussion back to fusion energy, the UK really seems to be building up a critical mass of fusion energy startups, it's an area where I think the government can really help as well with some well targeted tax breaks and a new rapid reactor approval process rather than the traditional 3-4 year process we have now for fission reactors.
Sounds very promising.
But I just despair at the approach of Rishi “no growth” Sunak and the lunatics at Treasury.
Indeed, I worry that Rishi is just a slicker clone of Philip Hammond, another chancellor who could only ever see the cost of doing something. What we really need is someone to come in as chancellor and destroy the current treasury orthodoxy, Rishi just doesn't seem like someone who will do that.
Not easy for someone so inexperienced to challenge the Treasury orthodoxy! Apparently former permanent sec Nick MacPherson said the two things he always kept an eye on were tax revenues and the unemployment rate. My sense is that HMT is completely short termist in its thinking, haunted by the possibility of another 1976 going 'cap in hand to the IMF.'
People underestimate how big a deal the UK’s FS industry is.
The UK is a services “superpower”; we’re the global number two, after the US. We export over 50% as much services as the US with 1/6 the population.
Very mostly, this is FS and the ancillary services that come with FS (consulting, accounting, software, even legal services), and very very much this is being generated in London.
Aside from that, whisky in Scotland, and some life sciences in Cambridge, the rest of the economy is highly meh, at least at a global level.
Taking the discussion back to fusion energy, the UK really seems to be building up a critical mass of fusion energy startups, it's an area where I think the government can really help as well with some well targeted tax breaks and a new rapid reactor approval process rather than the traditional 3-4 year process we have now for fission reactors.
Sounds very promising.
But I just despair at the approach of Rishi “no growth” Sunak and the lunatics at Treasury.
Indeed, I worry that Rishi is just a slicker clone of Philip Hammond, another chancellor who could only ever see the cost of doing something. What we really need is someone to come in as chancellor and destroy the current treasury orthodoxy, Rishi just doesn't seem like someone who will do that.
Rishi is even worse than Hammond. Rishi is an ideologue on behalf of the existing orthodoxy, whereas Hammond was just a do-nothing.
Boris Johnson’s (38%, down 1%) lead over Keir Starmer (36%, no change) has narrowed slightly in terms of who Britons think would be the better Prime Minister for the UK at this moment.
This is dismal stuff for Boris. Unless Ukraine spontaneously appoints him President for life, this is as good as his war gets for him. What a shame.
Actually not a bad poll for Boris, he still leads Starmer as preferred PM 38% to 36%.
Sunak however can only tie Starmer as preferred PM 37% each.
A 5% lead for the opposition is par for the course midterm, especially after 10 years in power
That's interesting. Since 1992, the only time the opposition has had a consistent 5%+ lead in midterm and NOT then won the subsequent election was 2019 when UKIP were polling big.
In other news I was interested to read private funding of nuclear fusion projects has overtaken public funding. I wonder whether the smaller fusion power projects will actually achieve a net energy gain much faster than the lumbering projects like Iter. Private money seems to be pouring in and I think that's a good sign.
It depends. It might just mean the investors have been conned.
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
“Its because in reality there isn't much you can do”
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits their voters interests.
Sickening.
No they couldn't. The ship is registered in Cyprus. This is international maritime rules, ship owners are free by these laws to register where ever they wish. Even if Cyprus decide to up their minimum wage, there are many other countries such as Panama, who will happily accept their registration fee.
It is surprising that ferries plying a regular route are not regulated differently.
Seems Maritime law is the arbiter and to be honest I did not know that
Boris Johnson’s (38%, down 1%) lead over Keir Starmer (36%, no change) has narrowed slightly in terms of who Britons think would be the better Prime Minister for the UK at this moment.
This is dismal stuff for Boris. Unless Ukraine spontaneously appoints him President for life, this is as good as his war gets for him. What a shame.
Actually not a bad poll for Boris, he still leads Starmer as preferred PM 38% to 36%.
Sunak however can only tie Starmer as preferred PM 37% each.
A 5% lead for the opposition is par for the course midterm, especially after 10 years in power
That's interesting. Since 1992, the only time the opposition has had a consistent 5%+ lead in midterm and NOT then won the subsequent election was 2019 when UKIP were polling big.
We've only had two changes of government since 1992, so presumably that means of the three occasions it's happened, there's been a change of government twice, and once not.
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
“Its because in reality there isn't much you can do”
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits their voters interests.
Sickening.
No they couldn't. The ship is registered in Cyprus. This is international maritime rules, ship owners are free by these laws to register where ever they wish. Even if Cyprus decide to up their minimum wage, there are many other countries such as Panama, who will happily accept their registration fee.
It is surprising that ferries plying a regular route are not regulated differently.
Seems Maritime law is the arbiter and to be honest I did not know that
Well it is, but there is meant to be a shift going on from flag control to port control of vessels, and you'd have thought that was really easily enforced on a UK-france ferry company. In fact what you'd hope is those sclerotic tyrants in the EU will impose minimum wage on ferries wanting to operate from EU ports.
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
“Its because in reality there isn't much you can do”
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits their voters interests.
Sickening.
No they couldn't. The ship is registered in Cyprus. This is international maritime rules, ship owners are free by these laws to register where ever they wish. Even if Cyprus decide to up their minimum wage, there are many other countries such as Panama, who will happily accept their registration fee.
It is surprising that ferries plying a regular route are not regulated differently.
Seems Maritime law is the arbiter and to be honest I did not know that
Well it is, but there is meant to be a shift going on from flag control to port control of vessels, and you'd have thought that was really easily enforced on a UK-france ferry company. In fact what you'd hope is those sclerotic tyrants in the EU will impose minimum wage on ferries wanting to operate from EU ports.
It would seem that it can only be done through international maritime law so I doubt anything will happen
Boris Johnson’s (38%, down 1%) lead over Keir Starmer (36%, no change) has narrowed slightly in terms of who Britons think would be the better Prime Minister for the UK at this moment.
This is dismal stuff for Boris. Unless Ukraine spontaneously appoints him President for life, this is as good as his war gets for him. What a shame.
Actually not a bad poll for Boris, he still leads Starmer as preferred PM 38% to 36%.
Sunak however can only tie Starmer as preferred PM 37% each.
A 5% lead for the opposition is par for the course midterm, especially after 10 years in power
That's interesting. Since 1992, the only time the opposition has had a consistent 5%+ lead in midterm and NOT then won the subsequent election was 2019 when UKIP were polling big.
We've only had two changes of government since 1992, so presumably that means of the three occasions it's happened, there's been a change of government twice, and once not.
On the City, what I've noticed is that it's the default option for smart people who don't like what they were doing in their previous industry, whether that's engineering, science or anything else. I was a software developer working 60-80h per week before I left for a City career where I worked the same 60-80 hour week but at least got paid well for my time.
I don't think it is a big lure for people who enjoy what they do and I'm not sure losing disinterested engineers or scientists from those fields to the City is really a huge deal.
That is a fair point. I had a choice after Business School to go back into consultancy and decided that the City was probably a better option - not because I loved it but, as you said, you would get paid more for what you did.
The irony is that, longer-term, it would have been better to stick with consultancy...
Care to elaborate on your final point?
Depending on the field, consultancy rates in London are upwards of £3k per day right now, I've seen some advertising their time for £10k per day outside IR35. Not sure how much work they get though.
What kind of consultancy? In my area, IT consultancy, contractor day rates are probably more like £800 a day for a one man band, or say 1500 for a senior person from a mid sized consultancy and much more for a big 4 (or whatever is left). But clients wouldn't pay 3k upwards for long term engagements. Or if they do, I'd love to know who they are!
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
“Its because in reality there isn't much you can do”
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits their voters interests.
Sickening.
No they couldn't. The ship is registered in Cyprus. This is international maritime rules, ship owners are free by these laws to register where ever they wish. Even if Cyprus decide to up their minimum wage, there are many other countries such as Panama, who will happily accept their registration fee.
It is surprising that ferries plying a regular route are not regulated differently.
Seems Maritime law is the arbiter and to be honest I did not know that
Well it is, but there is meant to be a shift going on from flag control to port control of vessels, and you'd have thought that was really easily enforced on a UK-france ferry company. In fact what you'd hope is those sclerotic tyrants in the EU will impose minimum wage on ferries wanting to operate from EU ports.
Is there not some national authorisation or regulation of ferry services? Can anyone with a boat simply set up in Dover and flog tickets for Calais?
Why doesn't the Labour Party re-name itself "The Graduates' Party"?
The Graduates and public sector workers and welfare claimants party.
Mind you the Tories could also rename themselves the pensioners party at the moment
As someone who has spent countless hours campaigning for them - there is absolutely no reason to vote Conservative if you are under 50 except as a form of social charity for pensioners. The Conservatives spend most of their time completely fucking over my generation. Thinking about it, I really should have voted for Corbyn, because at least the subsequent economic collapse would have devalued the housing market.
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
“Its because in reality there isn't much you can do”
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits their voters interests.
Fucking sickening.
I agree with you but just where do you have the link that HMG can enforce the minimum wage
I suspect that if a ship is sailing under Maritime law then there is little that you can do *
* other than to boycott it and in this case P&O Cruises as well
They said it was impossible to end slavery, too. But with a bit of creativity, persistence and raw power, we managed it.
£1.81 an hour for ferries running regular routes between European countries is unconscionable.
It’s not that we can’t enforce minimum wage, it’s that the government is choosing not to.
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
“Its because in reality there isn't much you can do”
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits their voters interests.
Sickening.
No they couldn't. The ship is registered in Cyprus. This is international maritime rules, ship owners are free by these laws to register where ever they wish. Even if Cyprus decide to up their minimum wage, there are many other countries such as Panama, who will happily accept their registration fee.
It is surprising that ferries plying a regular route are not regulated differently.
Seems Maritime law is the arbiter and to be honest I did not know that
Well it is, but there is meant to be a shift going on from flag control to port control of vessels, and you'd have thought that was really easily enforced on a UK-france ferry company. In fact what you'd hope is those sclerotic tyrants in the EU will impose minimum wage on ferries wanting to operate from EU ports.
It would seem that it can only be done through international maritime law so I doubt anything will happen
Nope. I am an international maritime lawyer to the extent there is such a thing, and nothing in the world stops France from saying I don't care what flag you are flying, if you don't pay minimum wage you aren't using my ports.
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
“Its because in reality there isn't much you can do”
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits their voters interests.
Sickening.
No they couldn't. The ship is registered in Cyprus. This is international maritime rules, ship owners are free by these laws to register where ever they wish. Even if Cyprus decide to up their minimum wage, there are many other countries such as Panama, who will happily accept their registration fee.
It is surprising that ferries plying a regular route are not regulated differently.
Seems Maritime law is the arbiter and to be honest I did not know that
Well it is, but there is meant to be a shift going on from flag control to port control of vessels, and you'd have thought that was really easily enforced on a UK-france ferry company. In fact what you'd hope is those sclerotic tyrants in the EU will impose minimum wage on ferries wanting to operate from EU ports.
Is there not some national authorisation or regulation of ferry services? Can anyone with a boat simply set up in Dover and flog tickets for Calais?
My understanding is as long as the boat / crew is deemed seaworthy by the local relevant port authorities they are free to sail, pay and conditions is a matter for the country the boat is registered in.
I suppose some countries the government might lean on these independent bodies to ensure they found faults, but just like why don't we just seize some Russian's property, our court system takes a very robust interest in procedures being fair and by the book*....and why we see the "bad law project" keep attempting to take the government to court for not following rules to the absolute letter during the pandemic.
* a previous case where the government of the lost a huge settlement when trying to just seize assets.
Brexit has already significantly dented the underlying GDP growth rate, and foreign direct investment.
Although this has been masked, first by Covid, and now by supply shocks relating to the Ukraine war, it’s still there - like rust underneath the surface.
When Britain is once again the sick man of Europe, the "winners" of the referendum will be whining that the EU are making use of free trade and free movement to gain a competitive advantage against us...
Britain is already the sick man of Europe. Again, it’s hidden because the day to day news is about the latest thing rather than long-term trends.
The other thing is that old people - the bedrock of the Brexit vote - are less likely to notice the impact because they don’t work and house prices have continued to rise.
We were told by Remainers - quite gleefully - that the City of London would wither on the vine, eclipsed by Paris and Frankfurt.
Hur hur hur.....
I notice your posts often take a strange gloating style. It is quite odd and says more about you than anything else.
I think most analysts expected some loss of business from London, with the business going to various places - New York as well as some European cities.
I don’t remember anyone predicting - let alone “gleefully” - that London would be eclipsed.
Not that any city has a monopoly on such things, look at what the Chinese are doing to HK’s status as an entrepôt.
If you don't remember it then you do have a very selective memory. These pages were filled with claims that it would be the end of the City and that would be a disaster for the country - often by people who had spent years previously claiming that the City was some terrible evil that needed to be brought to heel as it was a disaster for the country.
It has been a disaster for the country in our loss of self respect. It'll take a long time to get over that. As a country we'll never be viewed the same again. The great cosmopolitan inclusive country that made us what we thought we were was a chimera. Farage turned out to be right.
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
“Its because in reality there isn't much you can do”
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits their voters interests.
Sickening.
No they couldn't. The ship is registered in Cyprus. This is international maritime rules, ship owners are free by these laws to register where ever they wish. Even if Cyprus decide to up their minimum wage, there are many other countries such as Panama, who will happily accept their registration fee.
It is surprising that ferries plying a regular route are not regulated differently.
Seems Maritime law is the arbiter and to be honest I did not know that
Well it is, but there is meant to be a shift going on from flag control to port control of vessels, and you'd have thought that was really easily enforced on a UK-france ferry company. In fact what you'd hope is those sclerotic tyrants in the EU will impose minimum wage on ferries wanting to operate from EU ports.
Is there not some national authorisation or regulation of ferry services? Can anyone with a boat simply set up in Dover and flog tickets for Calais?
There's a whole heap of Safety of Life at Sea stuff, but this doesn't seem to fall under that.
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
“Its because in reality there isn't much you can do”
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits their voters interests.
Sickening.
No they couldn't. The ship is registered in Cyprus. This is international maritime rules, ship owners are free by these laws to register where ever they wish. Even if Cyprus decide to up their minimum wage, there are many other countries such as Panama, who will happily accept their registration fee.
It is surprising that ferries plying a regular route are not regulated differently.
Seems Maritime law is the arbiter and to be honest I did not know that
Well it is, but there is meant to be a shift going on from flag control to port control of vessels, and you'd have thought that was really easily enforced on a UK-france ferry company. In fact what you'd hope is those sclerotic tyrants in the EU will impose minimum wage on ferries wanting to operate from EU ports.
Is there not some national authorisation or regulation of ferry services? Can anyone with a boat simply set up in Dover and flog tickets for Calais?
My understanding is as long as the boat / crew is deemed seaworthy by the local authorities they are free to sail, pay and conditions is a matter for the country the boat is registered in.
In other news I was interested to read private funding of nuclear fusion projects has overtaken public funding. I wonder whether the smaller fusion power projects will actually achieve a net energy gain much faster than the lumbering projects like Iter. Private money seems to be pouring in and I think that's a good sign.
Yes - I posted something similar a few months back. And there are at least half a dozen different approaches to the problem, all if which have seen some kind of interesting progress in the last couple of years, and several of which might prove commercially viable.
Some of them aren't so small, with funding around $1bn. Also there's a lot of small project funding from the US government from their energy version of DARPA. So lots of the roadblocks are being looked at simultaneously.
2022 and a British company turns to slavery as a business decision.
But the rightwingers say “we can’t do anything”
That’s complete bullshit.
Take a long hard look at yourself.
Come on, explain how. How do the UK government enforcement the minimum wage of Cyprus....for the record, in fact there isn't a a national minimum wage in Cyprus at the moment.
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
“Its because in reality there isn't much you can do”
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits their voters interests.
Sickening.
No they couldn't. The ship is registered in Cyprus. This is international maritime rules, ship owners are free by these laws to register where ever they wish. Even if Cyprus decide to up their minimum wage, there are many other countries such as Panama, who will happily accept their registration fee.
It is surprising that ferries plying a regular route are not regulated differently.
Seems Maritime law is the arbiter and to be honest I did not know that
Well it is, but there is meant to be a shift going on from flag control to port control of vessels, and you'd have thought that was really easily enforced on a UK-france ferry company. In fact what you'd hope is those sclerotic tyrants in the EU will impose minimum wage on ferries wanting to operate from EU ports.
It would seem that it can only be done through international maritime law so I doubt anything will happen
Nope. I am an international maritime lawyer to the extent there is such a thing, and nothing in the world stops France from saying I don't care what flag you are flying, if you don't pay minimum wage you aren't using my ports.
So Britain and France and Ireland and everyone else doesn’t care?
The unspoken here, of course, is that these workers must be sleeping and eating on the vessel too, otherwise they could not afford to live.
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
“Its because in reality there isn't much you can do”
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits their voters interests.
Sickening.
No they couldn't. The ship is registered in Cyprus. This is international maritime rules, ship owners are free by these laws to register where ever they wish. Even if Cyprus decide to up their minimum wage, there are many other countries such as Panama, who will happily accept their registration fee.
It is surprising that ferries plying a regular route are not regulated differently.
Seems Maritime law is the arbiter and to be honest I did not know that
Well it is, but there is meant to be a shift going on from flag control to port control of vessels, and you'd have thought that was really easily enforced on a UK-france ferry company. In fact what you'd hope is those sclerotic tyrants in the EU will impose minimum wage on ferries wanting to operate from EU ports.
It would seem that it can only be done through international maritime law so I doubt anything will happen
Nope. I am an international maritime lawyer to the extent there is such a thing, and nothing in the world stops France from saying I don't care what flag you are flying, if you don't pay minimum wage you aren't using my ports.
However. P+O own the port of Larne. It is a monopoly.
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
“Its because in reality there isn't much you can do”
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits their voters interests.
Sickening.
No they couldn't. The ship is registered in Cyprus. This is international maritime rules, ship owners are free by these laws to register where ever they wish. Even if Cyprus decide to up their minimum wage, there are many other countries such as Panama, who will happily accept their registration fee.
It is surprising that ferries plying a regular route are not regulated differently.
Seems Maritime law is the arbiter and to be honest I did not know that
Well it is, but there is meant to be a shift going on from flag control to port control of vessels, and you'd have thought that was really easily enforced on a UK-france ferry company. In fact what you'd hope is those sclerotic tyrants in the EU will impose minimum wage on ferries wanting to operate from EU ports.
Is there not some national authorisation or regulation of ferry services? Can anyone with a boat simply set up in Dover and flog tickets for Calais?
I would assume that most ferries transit in international water where country legislation will not apply, hence Maritime law
I have also realised that cruise ships must be taking the same advantage of their crews and in view of the charges to the passengers it must be a gold mine of a business
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
“Its because in reality there isn't much you can do”
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits their voters interests.
Sickening.
No they couldn't. The ship is registered in Cyprus. This is international maritime rules, ship owners are free by these laws to register where ever they wish. Even if Cyprus decide to up their minimum wage, there are many other countries such as Panama, who will happily accept their registration fee.
It is surprising that ferries plying a regular route are not regulated differently.
Seems Maritime law is the arbiter and to be honest I did not know that
Well it is, but there is meant to be a shift going on from flag control to port control of vessels, and you'd have thought that was really easily enforced on a UK-france ferry company. In fact what you'd hope is those sclerotic tyrants in the EU will impose minimum wage on ferries wanting to operate from EU ports.
It would seem that it can only be done through international maritime law so I doubt anything will happen
Nope. I am an international maritime lawyer to the extent there is such a thing, and nothing in the world stops France from saying I don't care what flag you are flying, if you don't pay minimum wage you aren't using my ports.
Can they even do that for ships who are registered in the EU though? That would surely be restriction of goods and services from another EU country.
Boris Johnson’s (38%, down 1%) lead over Keir Starmer (36%, no change) has narrowed slightly in terms of who Britons think would be the better Prime Minister for the UK at this moment.
This is dismal stuff for Boris. Unless Ukraine spontaneously appoints him President for life, this is as good as his war gets for him. What a shame.
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
“Its because in reality there isn't much you can do”
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits their voters interests.
Fucking sickening.
I agree with you but just where do you have the link that HMG can enforce the minimum wage
I suspect that if a ship is sailing under Maritime law then there is little that you can do *
* other than to boycott it and in this case P&O Cruises as well
They said it was impossible to end slavery, too. But with a bit of creativity, persistence and raw power, we managed it.
£1.81 an hour for ferries running regular routes between European countries is unconscionable.
It’s not that we can’t enforce minimum wage, it’s that the government is choosing not to.
Your last line is not factual as much as you would like it to be
Boris Johnson’s (38%, down 1%) lead over Keir Starmer (36%, no change) has narrowed slightly in terms of who Britons think would be the better Prime Minister for the UK at this moment.
This is dismal stuff for Boris. Unless Ukraine spontaneously appoints him President for life, this is as good as his war gets for him. What a shame.
Actually not a bad poll for Boris, he still leads Starmer as preferred PM 38% to 36%.
Sunak however can only tie Starmer as preferred PM 37% each.
A 5% lead for the opposition is par for the course midterm, especially after 10 years in power
That's interesting. Since 1992, the only time the opposition has had a consistent 5%+ lead in midterm and NOT then won the subsequent election was 2019 when UKIP were polling big.
We've only had two changes of government since 1992, so presumably that means of the three occasions it's happened, there's been a change of government twice, and once not.
I like big error bars I cannot lie.
You'll fit right in here then.
The other point is that the two occasions when a change of government DID happen, the opposition parties sustained much higher leads than 5% over much longer periods of time than Starmer has managed - over twenty points under Blair and over ten points under Cameron.
It is shocking and I just do not understand why HMG and the Unions have not applied for an injuction
Its because in reality there isn't much you can do. Maritime laws are such that the terms and conditions of those employed are based upon where a ship is registered, and there are plenty of options for countries who will happily register your vessel while very limited worker guarantees.
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
“Its because in reality there isn't much you can do”
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits their voters interests.
Sickening.
No they couldn't. The ship is registered in Cyprus. This is international maritime rules, ship owners are free by these laws to register where ever they wish. Even if Cyprus decide to up their minimum wage, there are many other countries such as Panama, who will happily accept their registration fee.
It is surprising that ferries plying a regular route are not regulated differently.
Seems Maritime law is the arbiter and to be honest I did not know that
Well it is, but there is meant to be a shift going on from flag control to port control of vessels, and you'd have thought that was really easily enforced on a UK-france ferry company. In fact what you'd hope is those sclerotic tyrants in the EU will impose minimum wage on ferries wanting to operate from EU ports.
Is there not some national authorisation or regulation of ferry services? Can anyone with a boat simply set up in Dover and flog tickets for Calais?
I would assume that most ferries transit in international water where country legislation will not apply, hence Maritime law
I have also realised that cruise ships must be taking the same advantage of their crews and in view of the charges to the passengers it must be a gold mine of a business
I would suggest P & O should be boycotted
Cruise ships absolutely do this. I forgotten the exact percentage, but across the whole global maritime industry, Filipinos make up some astonishing percentage these days.
Comments
Is the answer to impair the financial industry, or encourage counterbalancing sectors elsewhere?
And in what sense does Brexit really help?
We are still a pretty diversified economy with strong life sciences, engineering, tech and other industries and while it does make sense to continue to try to diversify more I'm not sure the shock therapy of dismantling one of our success stories is the way to do it.
I don't think it is a big lure for people who enjoy what they do and I'm not sure losing disinterested engineers or scientists from those fields to the City is really a huge deal.
My reading of its aim was to flatter both the speaker and the audience by grabbing the coattails of a real heroic struggle against a real evil empire.
And ah Sinn Féin. They believe in a united Ireland; wholly understandable. They believe in it so much that they employed violence to try to achieve it. I suppose it's the one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter thing but again I am not embarrassed to have shared the political aim of remaining in the EU.
The UK is a services “superpower”; we’re the global number two, after the US. We export over 50% as much services as the US with 1/6 the population.
Very mostly, this is FS and the ancillary services that come with FS (consulting, accounting, software, even legal services), and very very much this is being generated in London.
Aside from that, whisky in Scotland, and some life sciences in Cambridge, the rest of the economy is highly meh, at least at a global level.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beanfield
Along with the disgraceful police behaviour at Orgreave it made a big impression on me as a student.
Why doesn't the Labour Party re-name itself "The Graduates' Party"?
Rishi Sunak Approval Rating (20 Mar):
Approve: 36% (-1)
Disapprove: 33% (+2)
Net: +3% (-3)
Changes +/- 13 Mar
Whomp whomp
Like the coal strike, it raised major issues about policing in the UK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beanfield
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/jun/12/ukcrime.tonythompson
Not the the illegal variety, though we got them as well.
https://twitter.com/CityAM/status/1505955157955125249
And what it is that makes us so successful at it. The legal bit I can understand but elsewhere?
In a not necessarily unrelated point what sort of progress are we seeing with regards to freezing Russian assets in the crown dependency tax havens?
But I just despair at the approach of Rishi “no growth” Sunak and the lunatics at Treasury.
The irony is that, longer-term, it would have been better to stick with consultancy...
The Stormont elections might be more significant for the Union but even there Unionist parties should still win more seats than Nationalists overall even if SF come top and the Alliance oppose a border poll for now anyway
Mind you the Tories could also rename themselves the pensioners party at the moment
Rishi is an ideologue on behalf of the existing orthodoxy, whereas Hammond was just a do-nothing.
Johnson should have made Gove chancellor.
In a call this afternoon the PM told Michel that solutions must be found in order to protect peace and stability and safeguard the Good Friday agreement in all its dimensions
However, even if I had stuck with my old firm, I could have been earning 1m+ as a partner. You do not get that in banking these days unless you are in specific parts and very senior.
SF also topped polled the poll in the 2010 Westminster election albeit with only 25.5%. The main story will be about chaos in the DUP.
“Indian agency workers hired to replace P&O Ferries crews in Dover are being paid £1.81 an hour”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60821266
"Some of P&O's ferries are registered in Cyprus, meaning they do not have to pay the minimum wage required by UK law."
Places like Panama and Cyprus are happy to take the vessel registration fees and unconcerned about terms and conditions of employees.
Indeed there were posters saying Boris has blown it in the EU while in the meantime both sides are talking and meeting
Its requires a reform on a greater level than even that minimum tax rate that leading nations agreed last year.
People are advised to wait 6 months since their previous dose to get maximum protection from a spring booster.
He had his booster on 25 October - should we wait until end of April?
My father was jabbed in I believe the middle of October, got him booked in last night for later this week.
Bullshit. The government could enforce minimum wage, at least, if they wanted to.
It’s a deliberate choice by government to allow modern slavery by P&O.
Because that’s their ideology and because it suits the interests of their client vote.
Fucking sickening.
- Cases - UP. But R is down in all age groups and across all regions.
- In hospital - UP
- Admissions - UP. R is steady, but above 1
- MV beds - Level(ish)
- Deaths - Level(ish)
The ships are registered in Cyprus. This is international maritime rules, ship owners are free by these laws to register where ever they wish and the laws under which employees on those ships are governed is based upon the laws in that country. Even if Cyprus decide to up their minimum wage / reduce special carve outs for ship employees, there are many other countries such as Panama, who will happily accept their registration fee.
It requires an massive international agreement to change this situation, and one I doubt Panama is interested in doing so, as the current status quo is worth a vast amount of money to them.
It is well known fact in the industry that Filipinos are widely used because they will work for such very low rates of pay, long hours and limited holiday. It is slave labour.
I suspect that if a ship is sailing under Maritime law then there is little that you can do *
* other than to boycott it and in this case P&O Cruises as well
£1.81 an hour for ferries running regular routes between European countries is unconscionable.
It’s not that we can’t enforce minimum wage, it’s that the government is choosing not to.
I suppose some countries the government might lean on these independent bodies to ensure they found faults, but just like why don't we just seize some Russian's property, our court system takes a very robust interest in procedures being fair and by the book*....and why we see the "bad law project" keep attempting to take the government to court for not following rules to the absolute letter during the pandemic.
* a previous case where the government of the lost a huge settlement when trying to just seize assets.
And there are at least half a dozen different approaches to the problem, all if which have seen some kind of interesting progress in the last couple of years, and several of which might prove commercially viable.
Some of them aren't so small, with funding around $1bn.
Also there's a lot of small project funding from the US government from their energy version of DARPA. So lots of the roadblocks are being looked at simultaneously.
But the rightwingers say “we can’t do anything”
That’s complete bullshit.
Take a long hard look at yourself.
The unspoken here, of course, is that these workers must be sleeping and eating on the vessel too, otherwise they could not afford to live.
Under what visa did they arrive in the UK anyway?
It is a monopoly.
I have also realised that cruise ships must be taking the same advantage of their crews and in view of the charges to the passengers it must be a gold mine of a business
I would suggest P & O should be boycotted
The other point is that the two occasions when a change of government DID happen, the opposition parties sustained much higher leads than 5% over much longer periods of time than Starmer has managed - over twenty points under Blair and over ten points under Cameron.