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Who’ll come out of May 5th best – Johnson or Starmer? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,151
edited March 2022 in General
imageWho’ll come out of May 5th best – Johnson or Starmer? – politicalbetting.com

This lunchtime the Tory campaigning expert, Lord Hayward, held his annual local elections briefing ahead of the May 5th elections.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • eekeek Posts: 28,304
    So the Tories are starting from a fairly low base in the first place.

    My suspicion is that no party will do significantly different from 2018..
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Not gonna be a Tory leadership deal unless Ukraine resolved and he fails to swerve FPN.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,625
    IshmaelZ said:

    Not gonna be a Tory leadership deal unless Ukraine resolved and he fails to swerve FPN.

    Yep.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    I am not expecting much change in London. Certainly few if any changes in control of boroughs.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    Wonder how the Greens will do. They've been making some big strides (given their starting point) in some local areas of late.
  • Labour have a good chance of taking Wandsworth, people hate the Tories here.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289
    FPT: Leon said:
    » show previous quotes
    "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."



    Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".

    Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,089
    edited March 2022

    I am not expecting much change in London. Certainly few if any changes in control of boroughs.

    You think the Tories will hold Wandsworth ?!?! They're 2-1 against or so.

    Looking at Westminster - on the previous boundaries it is a much much tougher nut to crack due to the vote distribution (VERY) heavily favouring the Tories.

    These are the easiest 11 on prev boundaries.

    Tachbrook 1 52.1 38.9 13.2
    Vincent square 3 47.9 34.8 13.1
    Vincent square 1 50.9 38.3 12.6
    Lancaster gate 1 50.4 40.1 10.3
    Lancaster gate 2 48.5 39.1 9.4
    Lancaster gate 3 46.1 38.4 7.7
    Bayswater 1 39.4 35.7 3.7
    Bayswater 2 36.5 33.1 3.4
    West End 2 42.5 40.4 2.1
    West End 1 43.2 41.3 1.9
    Churchill 1 42.6 42.2 0.4

    That'd be something like Lab 48 vs Con 37

    I don't know how the new boundaries affect vote skew though.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Pulpstar said:

    I am not expecting much change in London. Certainly few if any changes in control of boroughs.

    You think the Tories will hold Wandsworth ?!?! They're 2-1 against or so.
    AveIt / LondonPubman is not known for the accuracy of his forecasts. A useful strategy is to note his predictions, then bet the other way.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,281
    It looks like a right mess of different contests from which it will be hard to draw any obvious conclusions.

    Is there any single council that has any claim to be a bellwether for the country as a whole, given the current political divisions?

    A bit northern, a bit leavy, not a city?

    Maybe I'll go have a look...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,958
    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,281

    It looks like a right mess of different contests from which it will be hard to draw any obvious conclusions.

    Is there any single council that has any claim to be a bellwether for the country as a whole, given the current political divisions?

    A bit northern, a bit leavy, not a city?

    Maybe I'll go have a look...

    Bury is my current choice. Very close in votes last election. Co-located with the most marginal Tory-held Westminster constituency, and the recent defector.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,281
    IshmaelZ said:
    Does anyone know of any transgender athletes who have gone the other way, born female but now competing as men?
  • You can probably get good odds if you reckon the Tories will hold Wandsworth.

    I am confident Labour will take it but not enough to make a bet at this stage.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,089

    It looks like a right mess of different contests from which it will be hard to draw any obvious conclusions.

    Is there any single council that has any claim to be a bellwether for the country as a whole, given the current political divisions?

    A bit northern, a bit leavy, not a city?

    Maybe I'll go have a look...

    Bury is my current choice. Very close in votes last election. Co-located with the most marginal Tory-held Westminster constituency, and the recent defector.
    It's London, but the odds on both the Tories and Labour in Barnet are both close to even money.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:
    Does anyone know of any transgender athletes who have gone the other way, born female but now competing as men?
    Don't think we'd hear so much from them
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:
    Does anyone know of any transgender athletes who have gone the other way, born female but now competing as men?
    Don't think we'd hear so much from them
    Chris Mosier? Certainly some, but not many.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,741
    Leon said:

    FPT: Leon said:
    » show previous quotes
    "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."



    Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".

    Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.

    Sigh

    There's not much more I can do than be honest. I would vote LEAVE again, and with much greater enthusiasm

    Why?

    Because last time I was genuinely very doubtful; I was worried about the impact on the UK economy; I was personally worried about the impact on London property prices (my main asset)

    Any economic impact has been utterly dwarfed by the pandemic, making me much more relaxed about the comparatively trivial GDP hit of Brexit; London property has since had to weather a much fiercer storm - again, the pandemic - but seems to be doing fine now. Indeed London has a buzz at the moment (of course war and inflationary armageddon might ruin that, but that ain't Brexit)

    Meanwhile the grotesque behaviour of the EU, the Commission etc over our exit and then other stuff like the vaccines, literally trying to smear UK vaccines out of spite because Brexit, and the general behaviour of Remoaners in the UK (trying to cancel democracy) and the eurocrats in Brussels (trying to thwart our departure) tells me that Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    And the war shows me that democracy really is the best bulwark against autocracy

    So that's why I would vote Leave with a confident smile, rather than a nervous gulp

    The one big thing I regret is loss of Freedom of Movement. I hope one day we can find a new accommodation which restores it in some qualified form, for the benefit of all Brits AND Europeans

    There. Now you can believe me or not, but that is what I think
    I voted Remain reluctantly, but would vote to stay out now.

    Why?

    Firstly, the reason I voted to stay in was:

    1) Altruistic. I felt UK was a good influence on the EU. Helped to restrain it from its worst instincts, and was a bridge to US.

    2) I know folk who work in manufacturing. They were very worried that UK would lose a lot of investment if out of EU market, and supply-chains would become problematic. That influenced me.

    Why reluctant to vote remain? Because the EU is an integrationist project and is, at the end of day, undemocratic. It's not a polity. The decision-makers are far too remote.

    I've come to the conclusion that my reservations about the EU should, really, have outweighed my caution about leaving. The democratic arguments are unanswerable and the economic/influence hit is not sufficiently great on the other side.

    I think UK will do fine out. In fact, is doing fine despite everything.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    edited March 2022
    Russian government borrowing currently at 14%, double its pre-war interest rate, but not disastrous. (UK 1.61% for comparison.)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,291
    IshmaelZ said:
    The East Germans used to give them anabolic steroids.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,281

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:
    Does anyone know of any transgender athletes who have gone the other way, born female but now competing as men?
    Don't think we'd hear so much from them
    Chris Mosier? Certainly some, but not many.
    I was confident someone would know a name. Thanks.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
    If I was Ukraine I would definitely want to be in the EU. I think leaving only makes sense for countries that have better democratic cultures than the EU Commission. That is mainly the British Isles, the low countries and Scandinavia.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,900
    How did that happen?

    OGH: "Most of the English council seats up were last bought in 2018. This is what happened.......:"

    Have the Tories ever recognised this openly?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,102
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
    Head::desk

    I said "able to fend for itself". Ukraine is pretty bloody obviously NOT in that position. It is a poor country being attacked by a massive ugly fascist neighbour

    If I were Ukrainian I'd vote tomorrow to join the EU (if the EU agreed: very doubtful). It's the best way to get protection (other than joining NATO, but that's not happening), and EU funds might help to rebuild my shattered country, and rid it of corruption

    The UK is a big strong economy, being menaced by no one, we have nukes, so no one will invade us, we are not Ukraine

    I notice that Switzerland and Norway are not clamouring to join the EU either. Indeed polls show seriously high levels of opposition to the idea

  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    Russian government borrowing currently at 14%, double its pre-war interest rate, but not disastrous. (UK 1.61% for comparison.)

    That is well above the growth return of markets like Russia though, so you basically mean it isn't worth borrowing money to grow companies.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,281
    Pulpstar said:

    It looks like a right mess of different contests from which it will be hard to draw any obvious conclusions.

    Is there any single council that has any claim to be a bellwether for the country as a whole, given the current political divisions?

    A bit northern, a bit leavy, not a city?

    Maybe I'll go have a look...

    Bury is my current choice. Very close in votes last election. Co-located with the most marginal Tory-held Westminster constituency, and the recent defector.
    It's London, but the odds on both the Tories and Labour in Barnet are both close to even money.
    The problem with London is that I don't think an unexpectedly strong/weak performance for Labour there tells us much, if anything, about how the party is doing in the rest of England. Londoners are different.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,088
    Aslan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
    If I was Ukraine I would definitely want to be in the EU. I think leaving only makes sense for countries that have better democratic cultures than the EU Commission. That is mainly the British Isles, the low countries and Scandinavia.
    Johnson working on that culture of ours though. Working quite hard.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,117
    edited March 2022
    Aslan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
    If I was Ukraine I would definitely want to be in the EU. I think leaving only makes sense for countries that have better democratic cultures than the EU Commission. That is mainly the British Isles, the low countries and Scandinavia.
    It's the Finnish and Swedish ex-PMs that have been most outspoken against Johnson's comments, as mentioned earlier. They see absolutely no sense in leaving the EU, reflecting a broad consensus in their countries.

    The Dutch have been a deeply interconnected European trading power for all of their history.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,280
    Quincel said:

    Wonder how the Greens will do. They've been making some big strides (given their starting point) in some local areas of late.

    Greens will storm home in my ward (Newsome, Kirklees) with over 60% of the vote, but will fail to make a dent anywhere else in the borough.

    There are things that are favourable to the Greens here - a very concentrated student population and some growth in town centre new flat dwellers, but beyond that it's not a naturally middle class seat and was considerably less so when their hegemony started around 25 years ago.

    The secret here is quintessential old school Lib Dem style council tactics, highly active year round campaigning councillors, hundreds of votes in the bag from helping on specific issues over the years, solid organisation at election time. I sense the Greens nationally don't run things anywhere near as tightly, but the old lessons of building a base are there to be learned.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,329
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
    Head::desk

    I said "able to fend for itself". Ukraine is pretty bloody obviously NOT in that position. It is a poor country being attacked by a massive ugly fascist neighbour

    If I were Ukrainian I'd vote tomorrow to join the EU (if the EU agreed: very doubtful). It's the best way to get protection (other than joining NATO, but that's not happening), and EU funds might help to rebuild my shattered country, and rid it of corruption

    The UK is a big strong economy, being menaced by no one, we have nukes, so no one will invade us, we are not Ukraine

    I notice that Switzerland and Norway are not clamouring to join the EU either. Indeed polls show seriously high levels of opposition to the idea

    You're wasting your time. There are a handful of people on either side of the debate who are just obsessed with the UK's position in the EU and fighting the battles all over again.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    Russian government borrowing currently at 14%, double its pre-war interest rate, but not disastrous. (UK 1.61% for comparison.)

    Is that in Rubble denominated debt or Doller?

    Im no expert in these matter but I think there is sometime a difference,
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
    Head::desk

    I said "able to fend for itself". Ukraine is pretty bloody obviously NOT in that position. It is a poor country being attacked by a massive ugly fascist neighbour

    If I were Ukrainian I'd vote tomorrow to join the EU (if the EU agreed: very doubtful). It's the best way to get protection (other than joining NATO, but that's not happening), and EU funds might help to rebuild my shattered country, and rid it of corruption

    The UK is a big strong economy, being menaced by no one, we have nukes, so no one will invade us, we are not Ukraine

    I notice that Switzerland and Norway are not clamouring to join the EU either. Indeed polls show seriously high levels of opposition to the idea

    You're wasting your time. There are a handful of people on either side of the debate who are just obsessed with the UK's position in the EU and fighting the battles all over again.
    Now for a sensible debate.

    Chorizo in paella - are the Spanish wrong?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,117
    edited March 2022
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
    Head::desk

    I said "able to fend for itself". Ukraine is pretty bloody obviously NOT in that position. It is a poor country being attacked by a massive ugly fascist neighbour

    If I were Ukrainian I'd vote tomorrow to join the EU (if the EU agreed: very doubtful). It's the best way to get protection (other than joining NATO, but that's not happening), and EU funds might help to rebuild my shattered country, and rid it of corruption

    The UK is a big strong economy, being menaced by no one, we have nukes, so no one will invade us, we are not Ukraine

    I notice that Switzerland and Norway are not clamouring to join the EU either. Indeed polls show seriously high levels of opposition to the idea

    You're wasting your time. There are a handful of people on either side of the debate who are just obsessed with the UK's position in the EU and fighting the battles all over again.
    Boris Johnson being absolutely central amongst them, having started this debate all over again himself , single-handedly this week.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,760

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
    Head::desk

    I said "able to fend for itself". Ukraine is pretty bloody obviously NOT in that position. It is a poor country being attacked by a massive ugly fascist neighbour

    If I were Ukrainian I'd vote tomorrow to join the EU (if the EU agreed: very doubtful). It's the best way to get protection (other than joining NATO, but that's not happening), and EU funds might help to rebuild my shattered country, and rid it of corruption

    The UK is a big strong economy, being menaced by no one, we have nukes, so no one will invade us, we are not Ukraine

    I notice that Switzerland and Norway are not clamouring to join the EU either. Indeed polls show seriously high levels of opposition to the idea

    You're wasting your time. There are a handful of people on either side of the debate who are just obsessed with the UK's position in the EU and fighting the battles all over again.
    Now for a sensible debate.

    Chorizo in paella - are the Spanish wrong?
    How can the Spanish be wrong about Paella? You might as well ask if the Scots are wrong to spell Whisky without an "e".

    As for that other stuff, nuff said.
  • MalcolmDunnMalcolmDunn Posts: 139
    As with the Pandemic, Ukraine, Energy policy, Inflation, Tax, the economy, local government etc etc etc Starmer has nothing to say. If the Labour Party does well at the local elections it will surely be because Conservative voters have chosen to stay at home.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,760
    In Scotland the most interesting fight will be between Labour and the SNP in Glasgow. 7 day evangalists have promised fewer second comings than Scottish Labour but if they are going to try and crawl back into significance in Scottish politics or, for that matter, SKS is going to get close to having a majority in the next Parliament, they need to start somewhere and Glasgow is the obvious place.

    I wish them well but hae ma doots.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289
    Aslan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
    If I was Ukraine I would definitely want to be in the EU. I think leaving only makes sense for countries that have better democratic cultures than the EU Commission. That is mainly the British Isles, the low countries and Scandinavia.
    Lol. I didn't realise they had a House of Lords in any of the other countries of the EU. Some do have hereditary heads of state, though very few (IIRC) have FPTP. I am not sure any of them would consider themselves lesser democratic cultures than the UK, anymore than they think the NHS is "the envy of the world". I think you need to travel a little more.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    Its not a NFZ or transfer of Mig29s but its similar vain.

    Slovakia, lit looks like will be transferring its S300 air defence system (anti aircraft and missile) to Ukraine, and in the short term hosting US/NATO patriot air defence system.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8ObfeVD3Mk

    it looks like 3 reasons

    Short term, it helps Ukraine
    Medium term it wants a better system
    Long term it does not what to be dependant on Russia for spare parts ect.

    Ukraine has long operated the S300 system, so will have people trained to operate it, however they presumably have lost a lot of equipment (radar and control units) to Russian attack, and are probably now running out of missiles to fire.

    Russia is not happy, but I don't know how effective the system is? Maybe it depends on which version of the system you have, it looks like an old system that have been issued in lots of updated versions. but if anybody has good knowledge please share.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,773
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
    Head::desk

    I said "able to fend for itself". Ukraine is pretty bloody obviously NOT in that position. It is a poor country being attacked by a massive ugly fascist neighbour

    If I were Ukrainian I'd vote tomorrow to join the EU (if the EU agreed: very doubtful). It's the best way to get protection (other than joining NATO, but that's not happening), and EU funds might help to rebuild my shattered country, and rid it of corruption

    The UK is a big strong economy, being menaced by no one, we have nukes, so no one will invade us, we are not Ukraine

    I notice that Switzerland and Norway are not clamouring to join the EU either. Indeed polls show seriously high levels of opposition to the idea

    You're wasting your time. There are a handful of people on either side of the debate who are just obsessed with the UK's position in the EU and fighting the battles all over again.
    And you have just said that to the absolute champion of not letting go.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,720
    The last time the local elections were held in 2018 the Conservatives and Labour both tied on 35% NEV. Therefore if Labour's current poll lead is to be reflected at the ballot box they should be expecting to gain councillors and councils from the Tories
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
    Head::desk

    I said "able to fend for itself". Ukraine is pretty bloody obviously NOT in that position. It is a poor country being attacked by a massive ugly fascist neighbour

    If I were Ukrainian I'd vote tomorrow to join the EU (if the EU agreed: very doubtful). It's the best way to get protection (other than joining NATO, but that's not happening), and EU funds might help to rebuild my shattered country, and rid it of corruption

    The UK is a big strong economy, being menaced by no one, we have nukes, so no one will invade us, we are not Ukraine

    I notice that Switzerland and Norway are not clamouring to join the EU either. Indeed polls show seriously high levels of opposition to the idea

    You're wasting your time. There are a handful of people on either side of the debate who are just obsessed with the UK's position in the EU and fighting the battles all over again.
    Now for a sensible debate.

    Chorizo in paella - are the Spanish wrong?
    Doesn't seem to be a trad Spanish thing

    I heard the Mayor of Bologna the other day saying you can call anything you like a Bolognese sauce if it has the key ingredients, full fat milk and white wine. So the Italians certainly don't know much.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
    Head::desk

    I said "able to fend for itself". Ukraine is pretty bloody obviously NOT in that position. It is a poor country being attacked by a massive ugly fascist neighbour

    If I were Ukrainian I'd vote tomorrow to join the EU (if the EU agreed: very doubtful). It's the best way to get protection (other than joining NATO, but that's not happening), and EU funds might help to rebuild my shattered country, and rid it of corruption

    The UK is a big strong economy, being menaced by no one, we have nukes, so no one will invade us, we are not Ukraine

    I notice that Switzerland and Norway are not clamouring to join the EU either. Indeed polls show seriously high levels of opposition to the idea

    You're wasting your time. There are a handful of people on either side of the debate who are just obsessed with the UK's position in the EU and fighting the battles all over again.
    What and @Leon isn't one of them? He is constantly trying to convince himself, every time I come on here, he can't get off the subject. And why not, it was quite important. I shall continue to goad @Leon and all like him, to show this utopia that has still yet to transpire, and whether I might have to wait until 2116 to see any genuine Brexit dividends lol.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,760

    Russian government borrowing currently at 14%, double its pre-war interest rate, but not disastrous. (UK 1.61% for comparison.)

    It is not disastrous in normal circumstances because Russia runs a fiscal surplus and doesn't really need to borrow, except for roll over purposes. With a collapsing economy, an expensive war (it costs an absolute fortune to reduce even a medium sized city to rubble you know), a very weak currency and brutal sanctions these are very far from normal times. Personally I wouldn't consider them a sensible risk at double that interest rate.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738
    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
    Head::desk

    I said "able to fend for itself". Ukraine is pretty bloody obviously NOT in that position. It is a poor country being attacked by a massive ugly fascist neighbour

    If I were Ukrainian I'd vote tomorrow to join the EU (if the EU agreed: very doubtful). It's the best way to get protection (other than joining NATO, but that's not happening), and EU funds might help to rebuild my shattered country, and rid it of corruption

    The UK is a big strong economy, being menaced by no one, we have nukes, so no one will invade us, we are not Ukraine

    I notice that Switzerland and Norway are not clamouring to join the EU either. Indeed polls show seriously high levels of opposition to the idea

    You're wasting your time. There are a handful of people on either side of the debate who are just obsessed with the UK's position in the EU and fighting the battles all over again.
    Now for a sensible debate.

    Chorizo in paella - are the Spanish wrong?
    How can the Spanish be wrong about Paella? You might as well ask if the Scots are wrong to spell Whisky without an "e".

    As for that other stuff, nuff said.
    Oh, I don't know. Bushmills single malt is quite drinkable.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
    Head::desk

    I said "able to fend for itself". Ukraine is pretty bloody obviously NOT in that position. It is a poor country being attacked by a massive ugly fascist neighbour

    If I were Ukrainian I'd vote tomorrow to join the EU (if the EU agreed: very doubtful). It's the best way to get protection (other than joining NATO, but that's not happening), and EU funds might help to rebuild my shattered country, and rid it of corruption

    The UK is a big strong economy, being menaced by no one, we have nukes, so no one will invade us, we are not Ukraine

    I notice that Switzerland and Norway are not clamouring to join the EU either. Indeed polls show seriously high levels of opposition to the idea

    You're wasting your time. There are a handful of people on either side of the debate who are just obsessed with the UK's position in the EU and fighting the battles all over again.
    What and @Leon isn't one of them? He is constantly trying to convince himself, every time I come on here, he can't get off the subject. And why not, it was quite important. I shall continue to goad @Leon and all like him, to show this utopia that has still yet to transpire, and whether I might have to wait until 2116 to see any genuine Brexit dividends lol.
    TBF the UK still hasn't got its act together re inward controls, anyway, so the original battle isn't over, ditto NI.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,720
    Pulpstar said:

    I am not expecting much change in London. Certainly few if any changes in control of boroughs.

    You think the Tories will hold Wandsworth ?!?! They're 2-1 against or so.

    Looking at Westminster - on the previous boundaries it is a much much tougher nut to crack due to the vote distribution (VERY) heavily favouring the Tories.

    These are the easiest 11 on prev boundaries.

    Tachbrook 1 52.1 38.9 13.2
    Vincent square 3 47.9 34.8 13.1
    Vincent square 1 50.9 38.3 12.6
    Lancaster gate 1 50.4 40.1 10.3
    Lancaster gate 2 48.5 39.1 9.4
    Lancaster gate 3 46.1 38.4 7.7
    Bayswater 1 39.4 35.7 3.7
    Bayswater 2 36.5 33.1 3.4
    West End 2 42.5 40.4 2.1
    West End 1 43.2 41.3 1.9
    Churchill 1 42.6 42.2 0.4

    That'd be something like Lab 48 vs Con 37

    I don't know how the new boundaries affect vote skew though.
    On current London polling Labour could gain Westminster for the first time ever and Wandsworth for the first time since 1978. Leaving Kensington and Chelsea as the only Tory controlled council left in inner London
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,404
    I've been pro-Europe..... EEC/EU ............ since the early 60's and I see no reason to change my opinion.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,760
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
    Head::desk

    I said "able to fend for itself". Ukraine is pretty bloody obviously NOT in that position. It is a poor country being attacked by a massive ugly fascist neighbour

    If I were Ukrainian I'd vote tomorrow to join the EU (if the EU agreed: very doubtful). It's the best way to get protection (other than joining NATO, but that's not happening), and EU funds might help to rebuild my shattered country, and rid it of corruption

    The UK is a big strong economy, being menaced by no one, we have nukes, so no one will invade us, we are not Ukraine

    I notice that Switzerland and Norway are not clamouring to join the EU either. Indeed polls show seriously high levels of opposition to the idea

    You're wasting your time. There are a handful of people on either side of the debate who are just obsessed with the UK's position in the EU and fighting the battles all over again.
    Now for a sensible debate.

    Chorizo in paella - are the Spanish wrong?
    How can the Spanish be wrong about Paella? You might as well ask if the Scots are wrong to spell Whisky without an "e".

    As for that other stuff, nuff said.
    Oh, I don't know. Bushmills single malt is quite drinkable.
    It may well be but there is a typo on the label 😉
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289
    Leon said:

    FPT: Leon said:
    » show previous quotes
    "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."



    Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".

    Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.

    Sigh

    There's not much more I can do than be honest. I would vote LEAVE again, and with much greater enthusiasm

    Why?

    Because last time I was genuinely very doubtful; I was worried about the impact on the UK economy; I was personally worried about the impact on London property prices (my main asset)

    Any economic impact has been utterly dwarfed by the pandemic, making me much more relaxed about the comparatively trivial GDP hit of Brexit; London property has since had to weather a much fiercer storm - again, the pandemic - but seems to be doing fine now. Indeed London has a buzz at the moment (of course war and inflationary armageddon might ruin that, but that ain't Brexit)

    Meanwhile the grotesque behaviour of the EU, the Commission etc over our exit and then other stuff like the vaccines, literally trying to smear UK vaccines out of spite because Brexit, and the general behaviour of Remoaners in the UK (trying to cancel democracy) and the eurocrats in Brussels (trying to thwart our departure) tells me that Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    And the war shows me that democracy really is the best bulwark against autocracy

    So that's why I would vote Leave with a confident smile, rather than a nervous gulp

    The one big thing I regret is loss of Freedom of Movement. I hope one day we can find a new accommodation which restores it in some qualified form, for the benefit of all Brits AND Europeans

    There. Now you can believe me or not, but that is what I think
    It is a good essay, but I still sense you are trying to convince yourself, and maybe you are almost there. When I see you no longer post on the subject I will accept that the strategy of repetition compulsion (it is a somewhat disputed psychological phenomena) does work. The majority of the British public will still be a majority believing we were conned, but knowing we have to get on with it anyway, but perhaps they might consider a way of ensuring some sort of retribution on those that perpetrated the con.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
    Head::desk

    I said "able to fend for itself". Ukraine is pretty bloody obviously NOT in that position. It is a poor country being attacked by a massive ugly fascist neighbour

    If I were Ukrainian I'd vote tomorrow to join the EU (if the EU agreed: very doubtful). It's the best way to get protection (other than joining NATO, but that's not happening), and EU funds might help to rebuild my shattered country, and rid it of corruption

    The UK is a big strong economy, being menaced by no one, we have nukes, so no one will invade us, we are not Ukraine

    I notice that Switzerland and Norway are not clamouring to join the EU either. Indeed polls show seriously high levels of opposition to the idea

    You're wasting your time. There are a handful of people on either side of the debate who are just obsessed with the UK's position in the EU and fighting the battles all over again.
    Now for a sensible debate.

    Chorizo in paella - are the Spanish wrong?
    How can the Spanish be wrong about Paella? You might as well ask if the Scots are wrong to spell Whisky without an "e".

    As for that other stuff, nuff said.
    Well, so far - my South American relatives all say that Paella without chorizo is insipid.

    The only Spanish person who I've met who upset about it, turned out not to be able to cook or have much idea about food.

    A number of Spanish friends have mentioned that they remember having chorizo and all kinds of thing in paella when they were young. It's a dish of the poor - take anything edible, add it to the rice....
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    BigRich said:

    Russian government borrowing currently at 14%, double its pre-war interest rate, but not disastrous. (UK 1.61% for comparison.)

    Is that in Rubble denominated debt or Doller?

    Im no expert in these matter but I think there is sometime a difference,
    It's ruble-denominated debt (it's part of the OFZ lending program - that's the government's "normal" borrowing.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,281
    DavidL said:

    Russian government borrowing currently at 14%, double its pre-war interest rate, but not disastrous. (UK 1.61% for comparison.)

    It is not disastrous in normal circumstances because Russia runs a fiscal surplus and doesn't really need to borrow, except for roll over purposes. With a collapsing economy, an expensive war (it costs an absolute fortune to reduce even a medium sized city to rubble you know), a very weak currency and brutal sanctions these are very far from normal times. Personally I wouldn't consider them a sensible risk at double that interest rate.
    They said on the radio this morning that the Russian Central Bank would be buying bonds to "reduce volatility", so I suspect the rate would have been higher if not for that (just as for our borrowing during Covid).
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289

    BigRich said:

    Russian government borrowing currently at 14%, double its pre-war interest rate, but not disastrous. (UK 1.61% for comparison.)

    Is that in Rubble denominated debt or Doller?

    Im no expert in these matter but I think there is sometime a difference,
    It's ruble-denominated debt (it's part of the OFZ lending program - that's the government's "normal" borrowing.

    Their currency has been reduced to Ruble
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    BigRich said:

    Its not a NFZ or transfer of Mig29s but its similar vain.

    Slovakia, lit looks like will be transferring its S300 air defence system (anti aircraft and missile) to Ukraine, and in the short term hosting US/NATO patriot air defence system.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8ObfeVD3Mk

    it looks like 3 reasons

    Short term, it helps Ukraine
    Medium term it wants a better system
    Long term it does not what to be dependant on Russia for spare parts ect.

    Ukraine has long operated the S300 system, so will have people trained to operate it, however they presumably have lost a lot of equipment (radar and control units) to Russian attack, and are probably now running out of missiles to fire.

    Russia is not happy, but I don't know how effective the system is? Maybe it depends on which version of the system you have, it looks like an old system that have been issued in lots of updated versions. but if anybody has good knowledge please share.

    It would be, I think, a contractual breach with Russia. As with most arms contracts, the original seller has veto rights on resale/reuse.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,485

    IshmaelZ said:
    Does anyone know of any transgender athletes who have gone the other way, born female but now competing as men?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mack_Beggs
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

    There are probably others.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,741
    DavidL said:

    In Scotland the most interesting fight will be between Labour and the SNP in Glasgow. 7 day evangalists have promised fewer second comings than Scottish Labour but if they are going to try and crawl back into significance in Scottish politics or, for that matter, SKS is going to get close to having a majority in the next Parliament, they need to start somewhere and Glasgow is the obvious place.

    I wish them well but hae ma doots.

    Glasgow is iconic for Scottish Labour. And is the home-town of Nicola and Anas. So stakes are high.

    On the plus side for Labour. The SNP administration seems, if social media is to believed, to have presided over the descent of the city into a rat-infested midden. And the SNP leader is, perhaps, less than touchsure with some of her pronouncements.

    However I think, as usual, Labour will flatter to deceive. SNP just too strong. Glasgow voted Yes. The Nicola effect. Teflon.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,926
    For once I disagree with AM, it's extremely edifying and informative.


  • Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    I think Johnson will come out better in terms of expectation management especially if ends up like 2018 again and Labour and Tories end up tied. Starmer will be secure even if Labour doesn't gain any London councils as Labour will probably have a few noteworthy victories in the South such as Southampton and/or Worthing which is probably where he will appear on May 6 in that scenario.

    SNP could actually be the biggest loser expectation management wise if Labour becomes largest party in Glasgow and Scottish Tories actually gain seats overall (offsetting losses in Edinburgh) which would be good for both Douglas Ross and Anas Sarwar.

    Lib Dems will also be in trouble if they don't have at least one major council gain such as Somerset.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,734

    Leon said:

    FPT: Leon said:
    » show previous quotes
    "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."



    Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".

    Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.

    Sigh

    There's not much more I can do than be honest. I would vote LEAVE again, and with much greater enthusiasm

    Why?

    Because last time I was genuinely very doubtful; I was worried about the impact on the UK economy; I was personally worried about the impact on London property prices (my main asset)

    Any economic impact has been utterly dwarfed by the pandemic, making me much more relaxed about the comparatively trivial GDP hit of Brexit; London property has since had to weather a much fiercer storm - again, the pandemic - but seems to be doing fine now. Indeed London has a buzz at the moment (of course war and inflationary armageddon might ruin that, but that ain't Brexit)

    Meanwhile the grotesque behaviour of the EU, the Commission etc over our exit and then other stuff like the vaccines, literally trying to smear UK vaccines out of spite because Brexit, and the general behaviour of Remoaners in the UK (trying to cancel democracy) and the eurocrats in Brussels (trying to thwart our departure) tells me that Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    And the war shows me that democracy really is the best bulwark against autocracy

    So that's why I would vote Leave with a confident smile, rather than a nervous gulp

    The one big thing I regret is loss of Freedom of Movement. I hope one day we can find a new accommodation which restores it in some qualified form, for the benefit of all Brits AND Europeans

    There. Now you can believe me or not, but that is what I think
    It is a good essay, but I still sense you are trying to convince yourself, and maybe you are almost there. When I see you no longer post on the subject I will accept that the strategy of repetition compulsion (it is a somewhat disputed psychological phenomena) does work. The majority of the British public will still be a majority believing we were conned, but knowing we have to get on with it anyway, but perhaps they might consider a way of ensuring some sort of retribution on those that perpetrated the con.
    I don't feel any need to go on about it. But when Remainers make the implication that Leavers would not now vote Leave, I do occasionally feel the need to pipe up that yes, I would still vote Leave knowing now what I knew then, for the reasons Leon sets out - not least the vaccines debacle.
    And yes, I'd like Brexit to work better. But let's not kid ourselves that membership worked perfectly either.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289
    Aslan said:

    FPT: Leon said:
    » show previous quotes
    "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."



    Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".

    Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.

    You keep claiming it is Leavers banging on about it, but once again, this is a thread where YOU brought it up again. Leavers are broadly happy with the new status quo, return of powers to Westminster, controlled EU immigration etc.
    Well, I did carry forward form the previous thread, but to be quite honest, I now find the whole subject sort of amusing, so I think I might genuinely bring it up regularly just for the lols. Seeing Brexiteers like you and @Leon desperately trying to justify it to yourselves provides huge amounts of fascinating psychological study as well as amusement.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,760

    DavidL said:

    In Scotland the most interesting fight will be between Labour and the SNP in Glasgow. 7 day evangalists have promised fewer second comings than Scottish Labour but if they are going to try and crawl back into significance in Scottish politics or, for that matter, SKS is going to get close to having a majority in the next Parliament, they need to start somewhere and Glasgow is the obvious place.

    I wish them well but hae ma doots.

    Glasgow is iconic for Scottish Labour. And is the home-town of Nicola and Anas. So stakes are high.

    On the plus side for Labour. The SNP administration seems, if social media is to believed, to have presided over the descent of the city into a rat-infested midden. And the SNP leader is, perhaps, less than touchsure with some of her pronouncements.

    However I think, as usual, Labour will flatter to deceive. SNP just too strong. Glasgow voted Yes. The Nicola effect. Teflon.
    I think that is right. The one factor that might help them a bit is that an SKS led Labour party is much more vote transfer friendly than a Corbyn led one so some Unionists just might vote tactically for them. If I was in Glasgow I probably would.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    BigRich said:

    Russian government borrowing currently at 14%, double its pre-war interest rate, but not disastrous. (UK 1.61% for comparison.)

    Is that in Rubble denominated debt or Doller?

    Im no expert in these matter but I think there is sometime a difference,
    It's ruble-denominated debt (it's part of the OFZ lending program - that's the government's "normal" borrowing.

    Thanks and sorry for the Rubble - Ruble typo! accidental but perhaps appt.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,652
    FFS

    Trades Union Congress
    @The_TUC
    BREAKING 🚨: P&O ferry crews at Dover have been replaced by seafarers paid just £1.80 an hour.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738

    DavidL said:

    In Scotland the most interesting fight will be between Labour and the SNP in Glasgow. 7 day evangalists have promised fewer second comings than Scottish Labour but if they are going to try and crawl back into significance in Scottish politics or, for that matter, SKS is going to get close to having a majority in the next Parliament, they need to start somewhere and Glasgow is the obvious place.

    I wish them well but hae ma doots.

    Glasgow is iconic for Scottish Labour. And is the home-town of Nicola and Anas. So stakes are high.

    On the plus side for Labour. The SNP administration seems, if social media is to believed, to have presided over the descent of the city into a rat-infested midden. And the SNP leader is, perhaps, less than touchsure with some of her pronouncements.

    However I think, as usual, Labour will flatter to deceive. SNP just too strong. Glasgow voted Yes. The Nicola effect. Teflon.
    This discussion is forgetting the Scottish Greens - direct competitors with Labour especially as Labour are now so right wing in Scotland. But also with the SNP, so it'll be interesting to see what happens. An electoral alliance between the SGs and SNP, while slightly unlikely, is far more plausible than a Labour-Tory one in Glasgow if one goes by the historical electorate. I can only imagine the rump Unionist element in Glasgow Labour voters would stick with a Tory replacing their Labour candidate, so not much point in it for the Tories.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,958
    BREAKING: The Met Police have issued an update on their partygate investigation, saying they have now begun interviewing people on top of the 100 questionnaires sent out.

    In significant escalation of the investigation, Met says "key witnesses" have been questioned by officers.

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1505940174030741506
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,926
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    In Scotland the most interesting fight will be between Labour and the SNP in Glasgow. 7 day evangalists have promised fewer second comings than Scottish Labour but if they are going to try and crawl back into significance in Scottish politics or, for that matter, SKS is going to get close to having a majority in the next Parliament, they need to start somewhere and Glasgow is the obvious place.

    I wish them well but hae ma doots.

    Glasgow is iconic for Scottish Labour. And is the home-town of Nicola and Anas. So stakes are high.

    On the plus side for Labour. The SNP administration seems, if social media is to believed, to have presided over the descent of the city into a rat-infested midden. And the SNP leader is, perhaps, less than touchsure with some of her pronouncements.

    However I think, as usual, Labour will flatter to deceive. SNP just too strong. Glasgow voted Yes. The Nicola effect. Teflon.
    This discussion is forgetting the Scottish Greens - direct competitors with Labour especially as Labour are now so right wing in Scotland. But also with the SNP, so it'll be interesting to see what happens. An electoral alliance between the SGs and SNP, while slightly unlikely, is far more plausible than a Labour-Tory one in Glasgow if one goes by the historical electorate. I can only imagine the rump Unionist element in Glasgow Labour voters would stick with a Tory replacing their Labour candidate, so not much point in it for the Tories.
    The absence of Alba from folk's calculations is rather telling.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    BigRich said:

    Its not a NFZ or transfer of Mig29s but its similar vain.

    Slovakia, lit looks like will be transferring its S300 air defence system (anti aircraft and missile) to Ukraine, and in the short term hosting US/NATO patriot air defence system.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8ObfeVD3Mk

    it looks like 3 reasons

    Short term, it helps Ukraine
    Medium term it wants a better system
    Long term it does not what to be dependant on Russia for spare parts ect.

    Ukraine has long operated the S300 system, so will have people trained to operate it, however they presumably have lost a lot of equipment (radar and control units) to Russian attack, and are probably now running out of missiles to fire.

    Russia is not happy, but I don't know how effective the system is? Maybe it depends on which version of the system you have, it looks like an old system that have been issued in lots of updated versions. but if anybody has good knowledge please share.

    It would be, I think, a contractual breach with Russia. As with most arms contracts, the original seller has veto rights on resale/reuse.
    LOL I had not thought about that, difficult to see how they could enforce that part of the contract.

    But thinking about it, does Russia insist on on sale agreements in its contracts? maybe, but I thought they where mostly just interested in the cash, in this cases the system came form the former Czechoslovakia, not bought direct, but I think has been updated and improved since, so perhaps it would only be applicable if the Russians had inserted it in the upgrade work?
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    FPT: Leon said:
    » show previous quotes
    "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."



    Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".

    Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.

    Sigh

    There's not much more I can do than be honest. I would vote LEAVE again, and with much greater enthusiasm

    Why?

    Because last time I was genuinely very doubtful; I was worried about the impact on the UK economy; I was personally worried about the impact on London property prices (my main asset)

    Any economic impact has been utterly dwarfed by the pandemic, making me much more relaxed about the comparatively trivial GDP hit of Brexit; London property has since had to weather a much fiercer storm - again, the pandemic - but seems to be doing fine now. Indeed London has a buzz at the moment (of course war and inflationary armageddon might ruin that, but that ain't Brexit)

    Meanwhile the grotesque behaviour of the EU, the Commission etc over our exit and then other stuff like the vaccines, literally trying to smear UK vaccines out of spite because Brexit, and the general behaviour of Remoaners in the UK (trying to cancel democracy) and the eurocrats in Brussels (trying to thwart our departure) tells me that Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    And the war shows me that democracy really is the best bulwark against autocracy

    So that's why I would vote Leave with a confident smile, rather than a nervous gulp

    The one big thing I regret is loss of Freedom of Movement. I hope one day we can find a new accommodation which restores it in some qualified form, for the benefit of all Brits AND Europeans

    There. Now you can believe me or not, but that is what I think
    It is a good essay, but I still sense you are trying to convince yourself, and maybe you are almost there. When I see you no longer post on the subject I will accept that the strategy of repetition compulsion (it is a somewhat disputed psychological phenomena) does work. The majority of the British public will still be a majority believing we were conned, but knowing we have to get on with it anyway, but perhaps they might consider a way of ensuring some sort of retribution on those that perpetrated the con.
    I don't feel any need to go on about it. But when Remainers make the implication that Leavers would not now vote Leave, I do occasionally feel the need to pipe up that yes, I would still vote Leave knowing now what I knew then, for the reasons Leon sets out - not least the vaccines debacle.
    And yes, I'd like Brexit to work better. But let's not kid ourselves that membership worked perfectly either.
    I voted remain because I thought it would all be a shambles.
    I’d vote leave if asked again because it wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING: The Met Police have issued an update on their partygate investigation, saying they have now begun interviewing people on top of the 100 questionnaires sent out.

    In significant escalation of the investigation, Met says "key witnesses" have been questioned by officers.

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1505940174030741506

    No hurry, lads. Take all the time you need.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,926

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    FPT: Leon said:
    » show previous quotes
    "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."



    Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".

    Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.

    Sigh

    There's not much more I can do than be honest. I would vote LEAVE again, and with much greater enthusiasm

    Why?

    Because last time I was genuinely very doubtful; I was worried about the impact on the UK economy; I was personally worried about the impact on London property prices (my main asset)

    Any economic impact has been utterly dwarfed by the pandemic, making me much more relaxed about the comparatively trivial GDP hit of Brexit; London property has since had to weather a much fiercer storm - again, the pandemic - but seems to be doing fine now. Indeed London has a buzz at the moment (of course war and inflationary armageddon might ruin that, but that ain't Brexit)

    Meanwhile the grotesque behaviour of the EU, the Commission etc over our exit and then other stuff like the vaccines, literally trying to smear UK vaccines out of spite because Brexit, and the general behaviour of Remoaners in the UK (trying to cancel democracy) and the eurocrats in Brussels (trying to thwart our departure) tells me that Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    And the war shows me that democracy really is the best bulwark against autocracy

    So that's why I would vote Leave with a confident smile, rather than a nervous gulp

    The one big thing I regret is loss of Freedom of Movement. I hope one day we can find a new accommodation which restores it in some qualified form, for the benefit of all Brits AND Europeans

    There. Now you can believe me or not, but that is what I think
    It is a good essay, but I still sense you are trying to convince yourself, and maybe you are almost there. When I see you no longer post on the subject I will accept that the strategy of repetition compulsion (it is a somewhat disputed psychological phenomena) does work. The majority of the British public will still be a majority believing we were conned, but knowing we have to get on with it anyway, but perhaps they might consider a way of ensuring some sort of retribution on those that perpetrated the con.
    I don't feel any need to go on about it. But when Remainers make the implication that Leavers would not now vote Leave, I do occasionally feel the need to pipe up that yes, I would still vote Leave knowing now what I knew then, for the reasons Leon sets out - not least the vaccines debacle.
    And yes, I'd like Brexit to work better. But let's not kid ourselves that membership worked perfectly either.
    I voted remain because I thought it would all be a shambles.
    I’d vote leave if asked again because it wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be.
    Fckn hell, how bad did you think it would be, global pandemic and brink of nuclear armageddon bad?
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,030
    Pro_Rata said:

    Quincel said:

    Wonder how the Greens will do. They've been making some big strides (given their starting point) in some local areas of late.

    Greens will storm home in my ward (Newsome, Kirklees) with over 60% of the vote, but will fail to make a dent anywhere else in the borough.

    There are things that are favourable to the Greens here - a very concentrated student population and some growth in town centre new flat dwellers, but beyond that it's not a naturally middle class seat and was considerably less so when their hegemony started around 25 years ago.

    The secret here is quintessential old school Lib Dem style council tactics, highly active year round campaigning councillors, hundreds of votes in the bag from helping on specific issues over the years, solid organisation at election time. I sense the Greens nationally don't run things anywhere near as tightly, but the old lessons of building a base are there to be learned.
    Their leader Andrew Cooper was of course a former Lib Dem activist and served alongside them in a former coalition administration.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738
    edited March 2022

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    In Scotland the most interesting fight will be between Labour and the SNP in Glasgow. 7 day evangalists have promised fewer second comings than Scottish Labour but if they are going to try and crawl back into significance in Scottish politics or, for that matter, SKS is going to get close to having a majority in the next Parliament, they need to start somewhere and Glasgow is the obvious place.

    I wish them well but hae ma doots.

    Glasgow is iconic for Scottish Labour. And is the home-town of Nicola and Anas. So stakes are high.

    On the plus side for Labour. The SNP administration seems, if social media is to believed, to have presided over the descent of the city into a rat-infested midden. And the SNP leader is, perhaps, less than touchsure with some of her pronouncements.

    However I think, as usual, Labour will flatter to deceive. SNP just too strong. Glasgow voted Yes. The Nicola effect. Teflon.
    This discussion is forgetting the Scottish Greens - direct competitors with Labour especially as Labour are now so right wing in Scotland. But also with the SNP, so it'll be interesting to see what happens. An electoral alliance between the SGs and SNP, while slightly unlikely, is far more plausible than a Labour-Tory one in Glasgow if one goes by the historical electorate. I can only imagine the rump Unionist element in Glasgow Labour voters would stick with a Tory replacing their Labour candidate, so not much point in it for the Tories.
    The absence of Alba from folk's calculations is rather telling.
    We're talking about cooncils, mind. Not much of a presence there.

    Another issue of course is how many "Labour" candidates will suddenly turn out to be Tories once elected, ditto "independent" candidates. Either de facto or de jure. It gets quite complicaterd sometimes.

    Has the Aberdeen midden been sorted out, btw? No, on checking it's only getting worse.

    And of course Mr Sarwar doesn't think a small matter like joining the Tories in coalition disqualifies them, oh no siree.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-56238614
    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/labour-rules-suspended-aberdeen-councillors-can-stand-for-re-selection-3379750
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    FPT: Leon said:
    » show previous quotes
    "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."



    Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".

    Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.

    Sigh

    There's not much more I can do than be honest. I would vote LEAVE again, and with much greater enthusiasm

    Why?

    Because last time I was genuinely very doubtful; I was worried about the impact on the UK economy; I was personally worried about the impact on London property prices (my main asset)

    Any economic impact has been utterly dwarfed by the pandemic, making me much more relaxed about the comparatively trivial GDP hit of Brexit; London property has since had to weather a much fiercer storm - again, the pandemic - but seems to be doing fine now. Indeed London has a buzz at the moment (of course war and inflationary armageddon might ruin that, but that ain't Brexit)

    Meanwhile the grotesque behaviour of the EU, the Commission etc over our exit and then other stuff like the vaccines, literally trying to smear UK vaccines out of spite because Brexit, and the general behaviour of Remoaners in the UK (trying to cancel democracy) and the eurocrats in Brussels (trying to thwart our departure) tells me that Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    And the war shows me that democracy really is the best bulwark against autocracy

    So that's why I would vote Leave with a confident smile, rather than a nervous gulp

    The one big thing I regret is loss of Freedom of Movement. I hope one day we can find a new accommodation which restores it in some qualified form, for the benefit of all Brits AND Europeans

    There. Now you can believe me or not, but that is what I think
    It is a good essay, but I still sense you are trying to convince yourself, and maybe you are almost there. When I see you no longer post on the subject I will accept that the strategy of repetition compulsion (it is a somewhat disputed psychological phenomena) does work. The majority of the British public will still be a majority believing we were conned, but knowing we have to get on with it anyway, but perhaps they might consider a way of ensuring some sort of retribution on those that perpetrated the con.
    I don't feel any need to go on about it. But when Remainers make the implication that Leavers would not now vote Leave, I do occasionally feel the need to pipe up that yes, I would still vote Leave knowing now what I knew then, for the reasons Leon sets out - not least the vaccines debacle.
    And yes, I'd like Brexit to work better. But let's not kid ourselves that membership worked perfectly either.
    A considered response that has my respect. You see, from my point of view, my reason for voting Remain was not out of love for the EU (though some aspects I thought really worth membership), it was about the pointlessness of leaving as there is no benefit. The vaccines argument is a straw man because even if we had been in we would have probably done our own thing, as other EU members did. Brexit has been hugely divisive, will almost certainly cost us trade, has damaged our reputation internationally (not least because it has led to us having a clown for PM), and will not reduce immigration one iota in the future (even if one considers that a reason, though many clearly did). It was pointless disruption that benefited few people outside the orbit of Boris Johnson. Incidentally, I would not vote for us to re-join, because I don't think a re-run would be worth the upheaval and division. It will be for future generations and then rejoining is probably inevitable.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,485

    FFS

    Trades Union Congress
    @The_TUC
    BREAKING 🚨: P&O ferry crews at Dover have been replaced by seafarers paid just £1.80 an hour.

    If true, that's absolutely scandalous.

    Mind you, it's just a symptom of the state of international shipping, so I'm unsurprised.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    FPT: Leon said:
    » show previous quotes
    "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."



    Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".

    Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.

    Sigh

    There's not much more I can do than be honest. I would vote LEAVE again, and with much greater enthusiasm

    Why?

    Because last time I was genuinely very doubtful; I was worried about the impact on the UK economy; I was personally worried about the impact on London property prices (my main asset)

    Any economic impact has been utterly dwarfed by the pandemic, making me much more relaxed about the comparatively trivial GDP hit of Brexit; London property has since had to weather a much fiercer storm - again, the pandemic - but seems to be doing fine now. Indeed London has a buzz at the moment (of course war and inflationary armageddon might ruin that, but that ain't Brexit)

    Meanwhile the grotesque behaviour of the EU, the Commission etc over our exit and then other stuff like the vaccines, literally trying to smear UK vaccines out of spite because Brexit, and the general behaviour of Remoaners in the UK (trying to cancel democracy) and the eurocrats in Brussels (trying to thwart our departure) tells me that Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    And the war shows me that democracy really is the best bulwark against autocracy

    So that's why I would vote Leave with a confident smile, rather than a nervous gulp

    The one big thing I regret is loss of Freedom of Movement. I hope one day we can find a new accommodation which restores it in some qualified form, for the benefit of all Brits AND Europeans

    There. Now you can believe me or not, but that is what I think
    It is a good essay, but I still sense you are trying to convince yourself, and maybe you are almost there. When I see you no longer post on the subject I will accept that the strategy of repetition compulsion (it is a somewhat disputed psychological phenomena) does work. The majority of the British public will still be a majority believing we were conned, but knowing we have to get on with it anyway, but perhaps they might consider a way of ensuring some sort of retribution on those that perpetrated the con.
    I don't feel any need to go on about it. But when Remainers make the implication that Leavers would not now vote Leave, I do occasionally feel the need to pipe up that yes, I would still vote Leave knowing now what I knew then, for the reasons Leon sets out - not least the vaccines debacle.
    And yes, I'd like Brexit to work better. But let's not kid ourselves that membership worked perfectly either.
    I voted remain because I thought it would all be a shambles.
    I’d vote leave if asked again because it wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be.
    Fckn hell, how bad did you think it would be, global pandemic and brink of nuclear armageddon bad?
    Worse: Jeremy Corbyn as PM…
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,954
    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING: The Met Police have issued an update on their partygate investigation, saying they have now begun interviewing people on top of the 100 questionnaires sent out.

    In significant escalation of the investigation, Met says "key witnesses" have been questioned by officers.

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1505940174030741506

    How is the police doing their jobs “an escalation”? They decided to investigate, and we are pretty sure there’s been some wrongdoing, so they were always going to have to interview witnesses. Might seem petty but I think it’s indicative of lazy writing from our journalists.
  • Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    edited March 2022
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    In Scotland the most interesting fight will be between Labour and the SNP in Glasgow. 7 day evangalists have promised fewer second comings than Scottish Labour but if they are going to try and crawl back into significance in Scottish politics or, for that matter, SKS is going to get close to having a majority in the next Parliament, they need to start somewhere and Glasgow is the obvious place.

    I wish them well but hae ma doots.

    Glasgow is iconic for Scottish Labour. And is the home-town of Nicola and Anas. So stakes are high.

    On the plus side for Labour. The SNP administration seems, if social media is to believed, to have presided over the descent of the city into a rat-infested midden. And the SNP leader is, perhaps, less than touchsure with some of her pronouncements.

    However I think, as usual, Labour will flatter to deceive. SNP just too strong. Glasgow voted Yes. The Nicola effect. Teflon.
    This discussion is forgetting the Scottish Greens - direct competitors with Labour especially as Labour are now so right wing in Scotland. But also with the SNP, so it'll be interesting to see what happens. An electoral alliance between the SGs and SNP, while slightly unlikely, is far more plausible than a Labour-Tory one in Glasgow if one goes by the historical electorate. I can only imagine the rump Unionist element in Glasgow Labour voters would stick with a Tory replacing their Labour candidate, so not much point in it for the Tories.
    I think the Scottish Greens will do well across the board especially in Glasgow (mainly on the Southside). They might struggle to convert gains into further seats in Edinburgh though as they are already well established there and there will be less room for them to gain seats with the LDs also in the ascendancy there.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    For once I disagree with AM, it's extremely edifying and informative.


    Overall message of the day: don't be a brown woman, be a dog.
  • Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    FPT: Leon said:
    » show previous quotes
    "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."



    Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".

    Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.

    Sigh

    There's not much more I can do than be honest. I would vote LEAVE again, and with much greater enthusiasm

    Why?

    Because last time I was genuinely very doubtful; I was worried about the impact on the UK economy; I was personally worried about the impact on London property prices (my main asset)

    Any economic impact has been utterly dwarfed by the pandemic, making me much more relaxed about the comparatively trivial GDP hit of Brexit; London property has since had to weather a much fiercer storm - again, the pandemic - but seems to be doing fine now. Indeed London has a buzz at the moment (of course war and inflationary armageddon might ruin that, but that ain't Brexit)

    Meanwhile the grotesque behaviour of the EU, the Commission etc over our exit and then other stuff like the vaccines, literally trying to smear UK vaccines out of spite because Brexit, and the general behaviour of Remoaners in the UK (trying to cancel democracy) and the eurocrats in Brussels (trying to thwart our departure) tells me that Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    And the war shows me that democracy really is the best bulwark against autocracy

    So that's why I would vote Leave with a confident smile, rather than a nervous gulp

    The one big thing I regret is loss of Freedom of Movement. I hope one day we can find a new accommodation which restores it in some qualified form, for the benefit of all Brits AND Europeans

    There. Now you can believe me or not, but that is what I think
    It is a good essay, but I still sense you are trying to convince yourself, and maybe you are almost there. When I see you no longer post on the subject I will accept that the strategy of repetition compulsion (it is a somewhat disputed psychological phenomena) does work. The majority of the British public will still be a majority believing we were conned, but knowing we have to get on with it anyway, but perhaps they might consider a way of ensuring some sort of retribution on those that perpetrated the con.
    I don't feel any need to go on about it. But when Remainers make the implication that Leavers would not now vote Leave, I do occasionally feel the need to pipe up that yes, I would still vote Leave knowing now what I knew then, for the reasons Leon sets out - not least the vaccines debacle.
    And yes, I'd like Brexit to work better. But let's not kid ourselves that membership worked perfectly either.
    I voted remain because I thought it would all be a shambles.
    I’d vote leave if asked again because it wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be.
    It hasn't been as bad as I thought, either, but how bad do you need it to be?

    I once said I would clean with my tongue the shoes of every Leaver on the site if it were a success and as a benchmark I referred to the Euro/£ exchange rate and our international credit rating. Both dropped, as predicted, although the exchange rate has made a small recovery in the past few months. Neither amounts to the end of civilised life in the UK but they are not exactly success stories either.

    The precise terms of our departure are of course still being worked out so you'd have to accept that it will be some time before a definitive view of Brexit can be sensibly taken. My guess is that at the end of the day we'll have made it work, although it was a pretty dumb idea to start of with.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    FPT: Leon said:
    » show previous quotes
    "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."



    Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".

    Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.

    Sigh

    There's not much more I can do than be honest. I would vote LEAVE again, and with much greater enthusiasm

    Why?

    Because last time I was genuinely very doubtful; I was worried about the impact on the UK economy; I was personally worried about the impact on London property prices (my main asset)

    Any economic impact has been utterly dwarfed by the pandemic, making me much more relaxed about the comparatively trivial GDP hit of Brexit; London property has since had to weather a much fiercer storm - again, the pandemic - but seems to be doing fine now. Indeed London has a buzz at the moment (of course war and inflationary armageddon might ruin that, but that ain't Brexit)

    Meanwhile the grotesque behaviour of the EU, the Commission etc over our exit and then other stuff like the vaccines, literally trying to smear UK vaccines out of spite because Brexit, and the general behaviour of Remoaners in the UK (trying to cancel democracy) and the eurocrats in Brussels (trying to thwart our departure) tells me that Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    And the war shows me that democracy really is the best bulwark against autocracy

    So that's why I would vote Leave with a confident smile, rather than a nervous gulp

    The one big thing I regret is loss of Freedom of Movement. I hope one day we can find a new accommodation which restores it in some qualified form, for the benefit of all Brits AND Europeans

    There. Now you can believe me or not, but that is what I think
    It is a good essay, but I still sense you are trying to convince yourself, and maybe you are almost there. When I see you no longer post on the subject I will accept that the strategy of repetition compulsion (it is a somewhat disputed psychological phenomena) does work. The majority of the British public will still be a majority believing we were conned, but knowing we have to get on with it anyway, but perhaps they might consider a way of ensuring some sort of retribution on those that perpetrated the con.
    I don't feel any need to go on about it. But when Remainers make the implication that Leavers would not now vote Leave, I do occasionally feel the need to pipe up that yes, I would still vote Leave knowing now what I knew then, for the reasons Leon sets out - not least the vaccines debacle.
    And yes, I'd like Brexit to work better. But let's not kid ourselves that membership worked perfectly either.
    I voted remain because I thought it would all be a shambles.
    I’d vote leave if asked again because it wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be.
    Fckn hell, how bad did you think it would be, global pandemic and brink of nuclear armageddon bad?
    To be a bit more serious, if someone told you that Scottish independence would have the same level of disruption as Brexit has had that wouldn’t change your mind on it would it?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,277

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
    Head::desk

    I said "able to fend for itself". Ukraine is pretty bloody obviously NOT in that position. It is a poor country being attacked by a massive ugly fascist neighbour

    If I were Ukrainian I'd vote tomorrow to join the EU (if the EU agreed: very doubtful). It's the best way to get protection (other than joining NATO, but that's not happening), and EU funds might help to rebuild my shattered country, and rid it of corruption

    The UK is a big strong economy, being menaced by no one, we have nukes, so no one will invade us, we are not Ukraine

    I notice that Switzerland and Norway are not clamouring to join the EU either. Indeed polls show seriously high levels of opposition to the idea

    You're wasting your time. There are a handful of people on either side of the debate who are just obsessed with the UK's position in the EU and fighting the battles all over again.
    Now for a sensible debate.

    Chorizo in paella - are the Spanish wrong?
    NO
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,926
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    In Scotland the most interesting fight will be between Labour and the SNP in Glasgow. 7 day evangalists have promised fewer second comings than Scottish Labour but if they are going to try and crawl back into significance in Scottish politics or, for that matter, SKS is going to get close to having a majority in the next Parliament, they need to start somewhere and Glasgow is the obvious place.

    I wish them well but hae ma doots.

    Glasgow is iconic for Scottish Labour. And is the home-town of Nicola and Anas. So stakes are high.

    On the plus side for Labour. The SNP administration seems, if social media is to believed, to have presided over the descent of the city into a rat-infested midden. And the SNP leader is, perhaps, less than touchsure with some of her pronouncements.

    However I think, as usual, Labour will flatter to deceive. SNP just too strong. Glasgow voted Yes. The Nicola effect. Teflon.
    This discussion is forgetting the Scottish Greens - direct competitors with Labour especially as Labour are now so right wing in Scotland. But also with the SNP, so it'll be interesting to see what happens. An electoral alliance between the SGs and SNP, while slightly unlikely, is far more plausible than a Labour-Tory one in Glasgow if one goes by the historical electorate. I can only imagine the rump Unionist element in Glasgow Labour voters would stick with a Tory replacing their Labour candidate, so not much point in it for the Tories.
    The absence of Alba from folk's calculations is rather telling.
    We're talking about cooncils, mind. Not much of a presence there.

    Another issue of course is how many "Labour" candidates will suddenly turn out to be Tories once elected, ditto "independent" candidates. Either de facto or de jure. It gets quite complicaterd sometimes.

    Has the Aberdeen midden been sorted out, btw? No, on checking it's only getting worse.

    And of course Mr Sarwar doesn't think a small matter like joining the Tories in coalition disqualifies them, oh no siree.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-56238614
    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/labour-rules-suspended-aberdeen-councillors-can-stand-for-re-selection-3379750
    I think Alba have a (small) bit of a council presence from councillors who've changed parties, I assume their first task will be to hold on to them. They've even signed a Libdem!




  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    FPT: Leon said:
    » show previous quotes
    "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."



    Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".

    Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.

    Sigh

    There's not much more I can do than be honest. I would vote LEAVE again, and with much greater enthusiasm

    Why?

    Because last time I was genuinely very doubtful; I was worried about the impact on the UK economy; I was personally worried about the impact on London property prices (my main asset)

    Any economic impact has been utterly dwarfed by the pandemic, making me much more relaxed about the comparatively trivial GDP hit of Brexit; London property has since had to weather a much fiercer storm - again, the pandemic - but seems to be doing fine now. Indeed London has a buzz at the moment (of course war and inflationary armageddon might ruin that, but that ain't Brexit)

    Meanwhile the grotesque behaviour of the EU, the Commission etc over our exit and then other stuff like the vaccines, literally trying to smear UK vaccines out of spite because Brexit, and the general behaviour of Remoaners in the UK (trying to cancel democracy) and the eurocrats in Brussels (trying to thwart our departure) tells me that Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    And the war shows me that democracy really is the best bulwark against autocracy

    So that's why I would vote Leave with a confident smile, rather than a nervous gulp

    The one big thing I regret is loss of Freedom of Movement. I hope one day we can find a new accommodation which restores it in some qualified form, for the benefit of all Brits AND Europeans

    There. Now you can believe me or not, but that is what I think
    It is a good essay, but I still sense you are trying to convince yourself, and maybe you are almost there. When I see you no longer post on the subject I will accept that the strategy of repetition compulsion (it is a somewhat disputed psychological phenomena) does work. The majority of the British public will still be a majority believing we were conned, but knowing we have to get on with it anyway, but perhaps they might consider a way of ensuring some sort of retribution on those that perpetrated the con.
    I don't feel any need to go on about it. But when Remainers make the implication that Leavers would not now vote Leave, I do occasionally feel the need to pipe up that yes, I would still vote Leave knowing now what I knew then, for the reasons Leon sets out - not least the vaccines debacle.
    And yes, I'd like Brexit to work better. But let's not kid ourselves that membership worked perfectly either.
    I voted remain because I thought it would all be a shambles.
    I’d vote leave if asked again because it wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be.
    It hasn't been as bad as I thought, either, but how bad do you need it to be?

    I once said I would clean with my tongue the shoes of every Leaver on the site if it were a success and as a benchmark I referred to the Euro/£ exchange rate and our international credit rating. Both dropped, as predicted, although the exchange rate has made a small recovery in the past few months. Neither amounts to the end of civilised life in the UK but they are not exactly success stories either.

    The precise terms of our departure are of course still being worked out so you'd have to accept that it will be some time before a definitive view of Brexit can be sensibly taken. My guess is that at the end of the day we'll have made it work, although it was a pretty dumb idea to start of with.
    I always assumed that Brexit would produce an economic hit; how could it not? But I nearly voted for it anyway because of the democratic deficit I saw building up.

    In the same way I can see why lots of Scots want independence (though I personally would be sad to see them go) even if it cost them a significant economic hit.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284
    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
    Head::desk

    I said "able to fend for itself". Ukraine is pretty bloody obviously NOT in that position. It is a poor country being attacked by a massive ugly fascist neighbour

    If I were Ukrainian I'd vote tomorrow to join the EU (if the EU agreed: very doubtful). It's the best way to get protection (other than joining NATO, but that's not happening), and EU funds might help to rebuild my shattered country, and rid it of corruption

    The UK is a big strong economy, being menaced by no one, we have nukes, so no one will invade us, we are not Ukraine

    I notice that Switzerland and Norway are not clamouring to join the EU either. Indeed polls show seriously high levels of opposition to the idea

    You're wasting your time. There are a handful of people on either side of the debate who are just obsessed with the UK's position in the EU and fighting the battles all over again.
    Now for a sensible debate.

    Chorizo in paella - are the Spanish wrong?
    NO
    No to which?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,954
    “ Ali Harbi Ali, 26, denies murdering the MP for Southend West”.

    What’s his defence???!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,836
    edited March 2022
    biggles said:

    “ Ali Harbi Ali, 26, denies murdering the MP for Southend West”.

    What’s his defence???!
    Well his own defence team have ruled out using insanity as one.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    biggles said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    FPT: Leon said:
    » show previous quotes
    "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."



    Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".

    Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.

    Sigh

    There's not much more I can do than be honest. I would vote LEAVE again, and with much greater enthusiasm

    Why?

    Because last time I was genuinely very doubtful; I was worried about the impact on the UK economy; I was personally worried about the impact on London property prices (my main asset)

    Any economic impact has been utterly dwarfed by the pandemic, making me much more relaxed about the comparatively trivial GDP hit of Brexit; London property has since had to weather a much fiercer storm - again, the pandemic - but seems to be doing fine now. Indeed London has a buzz at the moment (of course war and inflationary armageddon might ruin that, but that ain't Brexit)

    Meanwhile the grotesque behaviour of the EU, the Commission etc over our exit and then other stuff like the vaccines, literally trying to smear UK vaccines out of spite because Brexit, and the general behaviour of Remoaners in the UK (trying to cancel democracy) and the eurocrats in Brussels (trying to thwart our departure) tells me that Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    And the war shows me that democracy really is the best bulwark against autocracy

    So that's why I would vote Leave with a confident smile, rather than a nervous gulp

    The one big thing I regret is loss of Freedom of Movement. I hope one day we can find a new accommodation which restores it in some qualified form, for the benefit of all Brits AND Europeans

    There. Now you can believe me or not, but that is what I think
    It is a good essay, but I still sense you are trying to convince yourself, and maybe you are almost there. When I see you no longer post on the subject I will accept that the strategy of repetition compulsion (it is a somewhat disputed psychological phenomena) does work. The majority of the British public will still be a majority believing we were conned, but knowing we have to get on with it anyway, but perhaps they might consider a way of ensuring some sort of retribution on those that perpetrated the con.
    I don't feel any need to go on about it. But when Remainers make the implication that Leavers would not now vote Leave, I do occasionally feel the need to pipe up that yes, I would still vote Leave knowing now what I knew then, for the reasons Leon sets out - not least the vaccines debacle.
    And yes, I'd like Brexit to work better. But let's not kid ourselves that membership worked perfectly either.
    People forget that the relevant question now is “would you vote to join in order to achieve slightly freer movement and a trivial increase in GDP, at the expense of vast amounts of policy autonomy and our own currency”?
    And Schengen...
  • theakestheakes Posts: 929
    Judging from recent local by elections one suspects the Lib Dems and Greens will do well. Lib Dems to take Sheffield and Hull, yes
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,926

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    FPT: Leon said:
    » show previous quotes
    "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."



    Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".

    Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.

    Sigh

    There's not much more I can do than be honest. I would vote LEAVE again, and with much greater enthusiasm

    Why?

    Because last time I was genuinely very doubtful; I was worried about the impact on the UK economy; I was personally worried about the impact on London property prices (my main asset)

    Any economic impact has been utterly dwarfed by the pandemic, making me much more relaxed about the comparatively trivial GDP hit of Brexit; London property has since had to weather a much fiercer storm - again, the pandemic - but seems to be doing fine now. Indeed London has a buzz at the moment (of course war and inflationary armageddon might ruin that, but that ain't Brexit)

    Meanwhile the grotesque behaviour of the EU, the Commission etc over our exit and then other stuff like the vaccines, literally trying to smear UK vaccines out of spite because Brexit, and the general behaviour of Remoaners in the UK (trying to cancel democracy) and the eurocrats in Brussels (trying to thwart our departure) tells me that Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    And the war shows me that democracy really is the best bulwark against autocracy

    So that's why I would vote Leave with a confident smile, rather than a nervous gulp

    The one big thing I regret is loss of Freedom of Movement. I hope one day we can find a new accommodation which restores it in some qualified form, for the benefit of all Brits AND Europeans

    There. Now you can believe me or not, but that is what I think
    It is a good essay, but I still sense you are trying to convince yourself, and maybe you are almost there. When I see you no longer post on the subject I will accept that the strategy of repetition compulsion (it is a somewhat disputed psychological phenomena) does work. The majority of the British public will still be a majority believing we were conned, but knowing we have to get on with it anyway, but perhaps they might consider a way of ensuring some sort of retribution on those that perpetrated the con.
    I don't feel any need to go on about it. But when Remainers make the implication that Leavers would not now vote Leave, I do occasionally feel the need to pipe up that yes, I would still vote Leave knowing now what I knew then, for the reasons Leon sets out - not least the vaccines debacle.
    And yes, I'd like Brexit to work better. But let's not kid ourselves that membership worked perfectly either.
    I voted remain because I thought it would all be a shambles.
    I’d vote leave if asked again because it wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be.
    Fckn hell, how bad did you think it would be, global pandemic and brink of nuclear armageddon bad?
    To be a bit more serious, if someone told you that Scottish independence would have the same level of disruption as Brexit has had that wouldn’t change your mind on it would it?
    If the same shambolic, duplicitous, petty, self serving rsoles who constituted one side of the Brexit debate were in charge of the process I might have to reconsider. Otoh I believe their leader is now in favour of countries wanting to be free to do things differently and to be able to run themselves, so there is that.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,238

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    You think Ukraine, literally fighting for it's life, is not a sane country.

    Brexiteers, wrong then, wronger now...
    Head::desk

    I said "able to fend for itself". Ukraine is pretty bloody obviously NOT in that position. It is a poor country being attacked by a massive ugly fascist neighbour

    If I were Ukrainian I'd vote tomorrow to join the EU (if the EU agreed: very doubtful). It's the best way to get protection (other than joining NATO, but that's not happening), and EU funds might help to rebuild my shattered country, and rid it of corruption

    The UK is a big strong economy, being menaced by no one, we have nukes, so no one will invade us, we are not Ukraine

    I notice that Switzerland and Norway are not clamouring to join the EU either. Indeed polls show seriously high levels of opposition to the idea

    You're wasting your time. There are a handful of people on either side of the debate who are just obsessed with the UK's position in the EU and fighting the battles all over again.
    Now for a sensible debate.

    Chorizo in paella - are the Spanish wrong?
    How can the Spanish be wrong about Paella? You might as well ask if the Scots are wrong to spell Whisky without an "e".

    As for that other stuff, nuff said.
    Well, so far - my South American relatives all say that Paella without chorizo is insipid.

    The only Spanish person who I've met who upset about it, turned out not to be able to cook or have much idea about food.

    A number of Spanish friends have mentioned that they remember having chorizo and all kinds of thing in paella when they were young. It's a dish of the poor - take anything edible, add it to the rice....
    I normally make it with chicken and prawns. I have added chorizo but if I have prawns in the freezer I prefer those.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496

    FFS

    Trades Union Congress
    @The_TUC
    BREAKING 🚨: P&O ferry crews at Dover have been replaced by seafarers paid just £1.80 an hour.

    Terrible - of course.

    A central question not asked SFAICS is this. The unions have made lots of noise quite rightly about illegality and all that. Why are they not already in court getting interlocutory injunctions and taking legal action to put this into reverse?

  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284
    Applicant said:

    biggles said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    FPT: Leon said:
    » show previous quotes
    "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."



    Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".

    Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.

    Sigh

    There's not much more I can do than be honest. I would vote LEAVE again, and with much greater enthusiasm

    Why?

    Because last time I was genuinely very doubtful; I was worried about the impact on the UK economy; I was personally worried about the impact on London property prices (my main asset)

    Any economic impact has been utterly dwarfed by the pandemic, making me much more relaxed about the comparatively trivial GDP hit of Brexit; London property has since had to weather a much fiercer storm - again, the pandemic - but seems to be doing fine now. Indeed London has a buzz at the moment (of course war and inflationary armageddon might ruin that, but that ain't Brexit)

    Meanwhile the grotesque behaviour of the EU, the Commission etc over our exit and then other stuff like the vaccines, literally trying to smear UK vaccines out of spite because Brexit, and the general behaviour of Remoaners in the UK (trying to cancel democracy) and the eurocrats in Brussels (trying to thwart our departure) tells me that Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    And the war shows me that democracy really is the best bulwark against autocracy

    So that's why I would vote Leave with a confident smile, rather than a nervous gulp

    The one big thing I regret is loss of Freedom of Movement. I hope one day we can find a new accommodation which restores it in some qualified form, for the benefit of all Brits AND Europeans

    There. Now you can believe me or not, but that is what I think
    It is a good essay, but I still sense you are trying to convince yourself, and maybe you are almost there. When I see you no longer post on the subject I will accept that the strategy of repetition compulsion (it is a somewhat disputed psychological phenomena) does work. The majority of the British public will still be a majority believing we were conned, but knowing we have to get on with it anyway, but perhaps they might consider a way of ensuring some sort of retribution on those that perpetrated the con.
    I don't feel any need to go on about it. But when Remainers make the implication that Leavers would not now vote Leave, I do occasionally feel the need to pipe up that yes, I would still vote Leave knowing now what I knew then, for the reasons Leon sets out - not least the vaccines debacle.
    And yes, I'd like Brexit to work better. But let's not kid ourselves that membership worked perfectly either.
    People forget that the relevant question now is “would you vote to join in order to achieve slightly freer movement and a trivial increase in GDP, at the expense of vast amounts of policy autonomy and our own currency”?
    And Schengen...
    One way we could have stayed would be to become more European: contributory benefits rather than universal, and moving the NHS to a more insurance based model (like France or Germany say). That would have reduced the sense that people were coming here because of our welfare system (which I doubt actually happed, but lots of people thought it did).

    I’m not sure how easy that would have been to sell to the public.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    FPT: Leon said:
    » show previous quotes
    "If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated."



    Except you haven't been (vindicated) and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".

    Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.

    Sigh

    There's not much more I can do than be honest. I would vote LEAVE again, and with much greater enthusiasm

    Why?

    Because last time I was genuinely very doubtful; I was worried about the impact on the UK economy; I was personally worried about the impact on London property prices (my main asset)

    Any economic impact has been utterly dwarfed by the pandemic, making me much more relaxed about the comparatively trivial GDP hit of Brexit; London property has since had to weather a much fiercer storm - again, the pandemic - but seems to be doing fine now. Indeed London has a buzz at the moment (of course war and inflationary armageddon might ruin that, but that ain't Brexit)

    Meanwhile the grotesque behaviour of the EU, the Commission etc over our exit and then other stuff like the vaccines, literally trying to smear UK vaccines out of spite because Brexit, and the general behaviour of Remoaners in the UK (trying to cancel democracy) and the eurocrats in Brussels (trying to thwart our departure) tells me that Leave is on the side of the angels, and that no sane country able to fend for itself would want to be in the non-democratic EU

    And the war shows me that democracy really is the best bulwark against autocracy

    So that's why I would vote Leave with a confident smile, rather than a nervous gulp

    The one big thing I regret is loss of Freedom of Movement. I hope one day we can find a new accommodation which restores it in some qualified form, for the benefit of all Brits AND Europeans

    There. Now you can believe me or not, but that is what I think
    It is a good essay, but I still sense you are trying to convince yourself, and maybe you are almost there. When I see you no longer post on the subject I will accept that the strategy of repetition compulsion (it is a somewhat disputed psychological phenomena) does work. The majority of the British public will still be a majority believing we were conned, but knowing we have to get on with it anyway, but perhaps they might consider a way of ensuring some sort of retribution on those that perpetrated the con.
    I don't feel any need to go on about it. But when Remainers make the implication that Leavers would not now vote Leave, I do occasionally feel the need to pipe up that yes, I would still vote Leave knowing now what I knew then, for the reasons Leon sets out - not least the vaccines debacle.
    And yes, I'd like Brexit to work better. But let's not kid ourselves that membership worked perfectly either.
    I voted remain because I thought it would all be a shambles.
    I’d vote leave if asked again because it wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be.
    Fckn hell, how bad did you think it would be, global pandemic and brink of nuclear armageddon bad?
    To be a bit more serious, if someone told you that Scottish independence would have the same level of disruption as Brexit has had that wouldn’t change your mind on it would it?
    If the same shambolic, duplicitous, petty, self serving rsoles who constituted one side of the Brexit debate were in charge of the process I might have to reconsider. Otoh I believe their leader is now in favour of countries wanting to be free to do things differently and to be able to run themselves, so there is that.
    So no Indyref until after Boris is out?
This discussion has been closed.