Gentle request to the petrolheads about the race - some of us (i.e. me) watch the catch up on Ch 4 later, so could you please comment within the spoiler tag which is conveniently there for you to do so.
Not going to happen, every race is a live betting event, with multiple markets.
Distressing stories coming out of Belarus, of the local soldiers being forced to clean Russian tanks
And when I say "clean" I mean: hosing out the remains of Russian soldiers. Apparently this chore is known to cause deep trauma in anyone tasked with it, hence the Russians using Belarusians
Such a charming regime
So....are those tanks in Belarus? Or Belarussian soldiers in Ukraine?
If the tanks are in Belarus - how? Why? We are seeing them just abandoned on the battlefield, bodies scattered. Not sure why they would be cleaning out tanks that had been hit.
Odd.
Apparently these are tanks that are still usable enough to be repaired, or mined for spare parts, so they have been tugged back over the border to Belarus for that purpose. But the unpleasant contents have to be swabbed away first.
The report seems legit - from local news in Belarus. I saw it a couple of hours ago. oO course it may be nonsense/disinfo. I'll try and find the tweet later; off to the gym now
Gentle request to the petrolheads about the race - some of us (i.e. me) watch the catch up on Ch 4 later, so could you please comment within the spoiler tag which is conveniently there for you to do so.
The best moment was when the bloke on the unicycle overtook all of them and acted as the safety car for three laps.
Distressing stories coming out of Belarus, of the local soldiers being forced to clean Russian tanks
And when I say "clean" I mean: hosing out the remains of Russian soldiers. Apparently this chore is known to cause deep trauma in anyone tasked with it, hence the Russians using Belarusians
Such a charming regime
So....are those tanks in Belarus? Or Belarussian soldiers in Ukraine?
If the tanks are in Belarus - how? Why? We are seeing them just abandoned on the battlefield, bodies scattered. Not sure why they would be cleaning out tanks that had been hit.
Odd.
Apparently these are tanks that are still usable enough to be repaired, or mined for spare parts, so they have been tugged back over the border to Belarus for that purpose. But the unpleasant contents have to be swabbed away first.
The report seems legit - from local news in Belarus. I saw it a couple of hours ago. oO course it may be nonsense/disinfo. I'll try and find the tweet later; off to the gym now
IMHO the Ukraine war in itself is at the moment electorally neutral because we are sufficiently distanced from it, and there is no great gap between the parties on general war policy.
There are however one or two jokers in the pack which could affect things. here are four:
1) What if the Russians clearly win and take over a destroyed Ukraine? Do the Tories gain because we kept out, or lose because NATO enabled the loss.
2) The UK ineptitude and general impossible form filling and useless help line approach to refugees could go several ways. Sadly if the subject of X million refugees all over Europe goes sour (and it might) then very quietly the people who want a humanitarian approach but confined mostly to Poland and Germany please will commend Boris and Patel with their votes though not their voice.
3) If the Russians back down or Putin loses out (resignation/exile/revolver) in any sense at all the incumbent government will gain from it.
4) By and large people will support our troops not being involved but only so long as there is no threat to western Europe.
There are too many unknowns to have any clarity. Who will form the next government is 50/50 between Tory and Labour led.
The Ukraine war is moving towards a stalemate according to what I have read. The Russian aim for a quick victory has been thwarted but they now move on to plan B, i.e. pound the cities into submission with bombs.
What puzzles me is why the successful Ukrainian attacks with hand-held rockets and drones against tanks and vehicles would not work against artillery howitzers. Can anyone explain?
I think the howitzers are a lot further away - often actually inside Russia.
I think that artillery will be effectively positioned in an optimal area for their targets and so because they aren’t moving around you can put a screen of soldiers out to defend them and so it’s harder for Ukrainians to get close enough or in a good position to hit them with hand helds.
Tanks etc need to move around the place so they can’t be properly protected everywhere they go.
Distressing stories coming out of Belarus, of the local soldiers being forced to clean Russian tanks
And when I say "clean" I mean: hosing out the remains of Russian soldiers. Apparently this chore is known to cause deep trauma in anyone tasked with it, hence the Russians using Belarusians
Such a charming regime
I don't supposed 'Bela' means 'servant of', since that appears to be their place in the new order.
Distressing stories coming out of Belarus, of the local soldiers being forced to clean Russian tanks
And when I say "clean" I mean: hosing out the remains of Russian soldiers. Apparently this chore is known to cause deep trauma in anyone tasked with it, hence the Russians using Belarusians
Such a charming regime
I don't supposed 'Bela' means 'servant of', since that appears to be their place in the new order.
The Ukraine war is moving towards a stalemate according to what I have read. The Russian aim for a quick victory has been thwarted but they now move on to plan B, i.e. pound the cities into submission with bombs.
What puzzles me is why the successful Ukrainian attacks with hand-held rockets and drones against tanks and vehicles would not work against artillery howitzers. Can anyone explain?
I think the howitzers are a lot further away - often actually inside Russia.
No, at least not all howitzers are in Russia. They aappear to be about 20 km from their targets.
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
So, I'm struggling with the use of the word 'analogy', because it normally implies some sort of similarity.
Let's start with the obvious.
1. Ukraine voted overwhelmingly for independence when they had the chance. 2. Russia then guaranteed Ukraine's borders in return for them giving up their nuclear weapons. 3. Russia then ignored these guarantees and invaded in 2014.
So, when you say 'analogy', what exactly do you mean?
Ultimately it seems to be just a fancy way of justifying why you think the Russians deserve agency, while the Ukrainians should do what they're told (by the Russians).
I am drawing an analogy between recent events in Ukraine, starting from Yanukovich cancelling Ukraine's then plans to join the EU, and fictional future events in Scotland. Yes that's a bit tenuous and tortuous, but there's an undoubtedly similarity in the dynamics of the two situations, because you have a country, a bigger neighbour, and an even bigger outside entity, the same way that you have Ukraine, Russia, and the EU/West. The bigger neighbour has closer historical ties, and more similarities in language and culture, but there are also historical differences and even enmities.
It is not an attempt to justify Russia's invasion, which is unjustifiable, though it is perhaps an attempt to understand how there might be a feeling of insecurity, as a larger overseas power expands its influence into an area hitherto part of one's own sphere.
Distressing stories coming out of Belarus, of the local soldiers being forced to clean Russian tanks
And when I say "clean" I mean: hosing out the remains of Russian soldiers. Apparently this chore is known to cause deep trauma in anyone tasked with it, hence the Russians using Belarusians
Such a charming regime
I don't supposed 'Bela' means 'servant of', since that appears to be their place in the new order.
Distressing stories coming out of Belarus, of the local soldiers being forced to clean Russian tanks
And when I say "clean" I mean: hosing out the remains of Russian soldiers. Apparently this chore is known to cause deep trauma in anyone tasked with it, hence the Russians using Belarusians
Such a charming regime
I don't supposed 'Bela' means 'servant of', since that appears to be their place in the new order.
Gentle request to the petrolheads about the race - some of us (i.e. me) watch the catch up on Ch 4 later, so could you please comment within the spoiler tag which is conveniently there for you to do so.
Not going to happen, every race is a live betting event, with multiple markets.
Even so it doesn't take much to comment within the spoiler.
I have a couple of comments to pick up from this morning.
I've been out fitting grab handles for a tenant who has now reached 67, and mentioned that she had had a bit of trouble on the tight stairs in her cottage, and could do with something for the bath.
And then tried to parley a grab handle for the bath-with-shower-over into a walk in shower, then into a new bathroom .
In the section headed "Patients and the public: your rights and the NHS pledges to you" it says this -
"You have the right not to be unlawfully discriminated against in the provision of NHS services including on grounds of gender, race, disability, age, sexual orientation, religion, belief, gender reassignment, pregnancy and maternity or marital or civil partnership status."
Anyone like to tell me what's wrong with this pledge?
Well it is weird they have reordered the characteristics from the Equality Act. But I thought it was sex rather than gender. But I haven't done an equalities module in awhile so canot remember what is the correct answer.
kle4 comes closest.
I'll take that - I could use a win.
Actually @MattW got it right but I had started writing before I saw his answer. Sorry @MattW!
It is perhaps a little sad that I was able to get it right.
I don't agree with whoever-said-it that the alleged rapes by pre-surgery Transgender Women are a 'loophole'; I think this is a difference at the level of dogma ie belief, and ultimately cannot be fudged. Between pure self-determination of gender, and whether there must be a physical (ie surgical / medical) component. Layered on top of that are demands (in eg the Edinburgh Declaration - is it called?) to control medication including I think for children with little or no medical supervision.
It would be interesting to know the comparable figures for mixed-wards before 2010, when they went for single sex wards.
Perhaps the original issue @Cyclefree mentioned is one which needs a judicial review to put the fear of God into a few of the public sector institutions?
It's one which Great Jumping Jolyon should be willing to take on, but I don't think they will as they are more about politics than law.
Seems a bit odd that resources are allocated to tank recovery at this stage of the conflict, and that ones containing the disassembled remains of their crews can be returned to service quickly. Aiui after 1945 Eastern Europe & the SU were littered with tank carcasses for years.
#Belarusian conscripts wash tanks from the remains of #Russian soldiers--The Belarusian edition Nasha Niva In the Komarin area, near Gomel conscripts repiar wrecked and broken Russian equipment. They ask for anti-nausea medicine. unian.net/world/soldaty-…‘
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
I’m missing the bit where, in any circumstances, thus would justify rUK invading Scotland, razing Edinburgh to the ground, deporting the surviving population to Wales and repopulating the country with a bunch of Sassenachs
Well, it doesn't, as it doesn't in Russia's case either, but yet it's not impossible to see circumstances where the scenario might get really ugly.
I am confident that, despite @HYUFD entreaties, rUK would not invade Scotland.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
#Belarusian conscripts wash tanks from the remains of #Russian soldiers--The Belarusian edition Nasha Niva In the Komarin area, near Gomel conscripts repiar wrecked and broken Russian equipment. They ask for anti-nausea medicine. unian.net/world/soldaty-…‘
How and why would they be recovering all these tanks? If they are on the end of a NLAW or Javelin, there isn't much to recover in the first place.
Also, if you are subject to constant ambushes, why would you be sending out teams to try and pick up ones that are just lightly damaged. Sounds like a recipe for just losing more kit.
Finally, it seems the Ukrainians are very quick to a) steal them and b) strip them of anything useful. I saw a video the other day where they are sending them off to car repair shops, who are cutting off anything worthwhile and repurposing it.
If we are to achieve net zero, how is there any common sense in trying to produce more CO2?
This is the time to massively invest in renewables and nuclear.
They are entirely compatible. 1. We need power next winter. If we can't get replacement gas then our gas-fired power stations are in trouble. Without them we have a big hole in our capabilities as we bet the farm on cheap gas imports to maximise profits. We may need to keep burning coal a bit longer whilst we change our capabilities. 2. We must invest into renewables. Not just erecting wind farms but actually making the turbines. Invest into tidal so that we can harness the huge tidal surges. Mass produced solar panels so that every house can have one. 3. But having done all that we still need oil. We aren't about to replace next week every truck engine with hydrogen so we need oil. We still need plastic so we still need oil. Better to use our own oil than be on the hook to someone else (see gas, point 1) 4. Nuclear is a massive dead end. We can't produce our own nuclear power stations any more from an engineering point of view, and even from a construction point of view they are very very very slow to put up and at vast cost. Better to sink the money into cheaper cleaner faster alternatives.
I have a Tesla on order to sit alongside our Ioniq EV. And I am advocating more domestic oil and gas production. The two are not incompatible.
On 4 nuclear may not be a dead end in the UK - but it depends on whether Rolls Royce’s mini nuke design works.
And the thing is we do need baseline power and there are no easy solutions there. If the wind doesn’t blow for a few days no amount of storage is going to help
It doesn't depend on whether they work (although having a nuclear sub reactor parked in your town is going to bring out a tsunami of NIMBY's). It depends on the cost. Of siting, planning permission, building, maintaining, defending, decommissioning. Boris hasn't told us any of the answers to those.
The nuke mini reactors are nearly certainly going to go on the sites of existing nuclear power stations. They have a fairly small footprint, and the sites have very large amounts of land "behind the fences". There are also the existing turbine halls to take the steam generated, the connections to the grid etc.
If you listen to the anti-nuke types, they are extremely worried by the possibility that because of this, the mini-nukes won't even get a "proper"* planning enquiry.
*One lasting decades.
Still nothing on the relative costs.
And they are still a new form of energy generation - that might have significant teething problems. A lot being taken on good faith - never wise with the nuclear industry.
The question on costs is hard to gauge at this point. They are, of course, a modification of existing nuclear reactor designs for submarines. The sizing seems to suggest something quite close to the reactors for the next generation of Trident submarines (PWR3).
So, rather than being a whole new design, they will be an evolution of an existing design. I would suspect that many components, such as the pressure vessel, will be very, very similar.
The resistance to the mini-nuke idea from the backers of traditional sized nuclear power stations has been interesting. They claimed that the re-use of military technology was an "unfair advantage". Which speaks volumes, to me.
AFAIK the proposed Rolls Royce Small Modular Reactor design isn't a modification of a nuclear submarine design. It's more that RR claims expertise because they have designed reactors for submarines.
From what I have seen SMRs shift the major capital cost risk from individual power stations to the SMR manufacturer for series production, ie a power station can purchase a couple of mini nukes rather than having to put up the cost of a large power station up front to get economy of scale. However RR (or more likely the UK taxpayer) will be in trouble if they don't sell these mini nukes in bulk. The challenges facing large nuclear power stations largely also apply to smaller ones
Currently there is one protoptype SMR being constructed in China. I am guessing we are talking 2040s for industrial production of a technology with some promise.
By which time, we could have 10-12 tidal lagoon power stations each several years into power production, each the size of Sizewell C/Hinkley C at a fraction of the cost, lasting much longer, at zero risk to the environment or the taxpayer (private equity builds them) and with virtually no abandonment costs.
Which does leave open the question - what the fuck is Boris playing at pushing nuclear?
Because it’s the path of least resistance*
Changing the civil service’s settled view that tidal doesn’t work takes energy and application. Something Boris is noted for…
* you can try any electricity jokes but I won’t understand them
Seems a bit odd that resources are allocated to tank recovery at this stage of the conflict, and that ones containing the disassembled remains of their crews can be returned to service quickly. Aiui after 1945 Eastern Europe & the SU were littered with tank carcasses for years.
Yes, we need a military expert - ie not @Dura_Ace - to tell us if this makes sense
The source - Belarus news service Nasha Niva - seems credible and legitimate, tho it is definitely anti-war and anti-Putin, at first glance. It is interesting in itself that such dissident voices still exist in Minsk
Distressing stories coming out of Belarus, of the local soldiers being forced to clean Russian tanks
And when I say "clean" I mean: hosing out the remains of Russian soldiers. Apparently this chore is known to cause deep trauma in anyone tasked with it, hence the Russians using Belarusians
Such a charming regime
So....are those tanks in Belarus? Or Belarussian soldiers in Ukraine?
If the tanks are in Belarus - how? Why? We are seeing them just abandoned on the battlefield, bodies scattered. Not sure why they would be cleaning out tanks that had been hit.
Odd.
Apparently these are tanks that are still usable enough to be repaired, or mined for spare parts, so they have been tugged back over the border to Belarus for that purpose. But the unpleasant contents have to be swabbed away first.
The report seems legit - from local news in Belarus. I saw it a couple of hours ago. oO course it may be nonsense/disinfo. I'll try and find the tweet later; off to the gym now
I had a friend who was a senior linesman on the railway. One of his jobs was to be called out to any incident with the region's rep. Which involved going down the track looking for any damage to S&T equipment, and for 'evidence'.
The 'evidence' in the case of suicides or fatalities being body parts. It was a grim job, and affected on otherwise unflappable person deeply. Especially when the driver reported having hit a cow, and it turned out to be a person.
Likewise, people at the depot have to go under the train looking for other pieces of 'evidence'.
The people doing that job don't get paid enough, and shame on people who just say 'it's their job'.
#Belarusian conscripts wash tanks from the remains of #Russian soldiers--The Belarusian edition Nasha Niva In the Komarin area, near Gomel conscripts repiar wrecked and broken Russian equipment. They ask for anti-nausea medicine. unian.net/world/soldaty-…‘
How and why would they be recovering all these tanks? If they are on the end of a NLAW or Javelin, there isn't much to recover in the first place.
Also, if you are subject to constant ambushes, why would you be sending out teams to try and pick up ones that are just lightly damaged. Sounds like a recipe for just losing more kit.
From the start of tanks - WWI - recovering tanks from the battlefield has been a thing.
During WWI, cleaning out the remains of crew from destroyed tanks was a punishment detail. It was considered worse than the burial details - the combination of ways people die in tanks and the enclosed space.
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
Except this doesn't seem to be anything like what is happening in Ukraine.
Or, indeed, Scotland
No, it's what happened in Ukraine with EU accession and the Maidan protests.
No. It’s the Russian narrative about what happened in Ukraine
The Ukraine war is moving towards a stalemate according to what I have read. The Russian aim for a quick victory has been thwarted but they now move on to plan B, i.e. pound the cities into submission with bombs.
What puzzles me is why the successful Ukrainian attacks with hand-held rockets and drones against tanks and vehicles would not work against artillery howitzers. Can anyone explain?
I'd like to know the answer to that too.
Also how well the Ukrainians are getting on with training reservists.
I'm *guessing*, but for non-self propelled howitzers, there's probably not much to hit. A tank has ammo stored within, an engine, and is a confined space for the crew. A towed howtizer can have ammo stored a short distance away, and is much smaller in profile.
Indeed, very interesting. O'Brien says the same thing in relation to war as Galeev says about Russia's economy - to succeed both have to be run as complex systems. But, as Galeev points out, Russia a a mafiosa leadership, not (in Laloux' terms) an evolutionary or an ecological leadership. Not even a matrix leadership.
So the conclusion is the same. Russia simple does not have the leadership and organizational skills to run a successful modern war or economy.
The Ukraine war is moving towards a stalemate according to what I have read. The Russian aim for a quick victory has been thwarted but they now move on to plan B, i.e. pound the cities into submission with bombs.
What puzzles me is why the successful Ukrainian attacks with hand-held rockets and drones against tanks and vehicles would not work against artillery howitzers. Can anyone explain?
I think the howitzers are a lot further away - often actually inside Russia.
No, at least not all howitzers are in Russia. They aappear to be about 20 km from their targets.
#Belarusian conscripts wash tanks from the remains of #Russian soldiers--The Belarusian edition Nasha Niva In the Komarin area, near Gomel conscripts repiar wrecked and broken Russian equipment. They ask for anti-nausea medicine. unian.net/world/soldaty-…‘
How and why would they be recovering all these tanks? If they are on the end of a NLAW or Javelin, there isn't much to recover in the first place.
Also, if you are subject to constant ambushes, why would you be sending out teams to try and pick up ones that are just lightly damaged. Sounds like a recipe for just losing more kit.
Finally, it seems the Ukrainians are very quick to a) steal them and b) strip them of anything useful. I saw a video the other day where they are sending them off to car repair shops, who are cutting off anything worthwhile and repurposing it.
I am not a tank commander. So I have no idea if this is true!
On one of the Twitter threads discussing this, a woman says that her Uncle had to do exactly this job in Vietnam. And it totally fucked with his head. So it clearly happens in war
Seems a bit odd that resources are allocated to tank recovery at this stage of the conflict, and that ones containing the disassembled remains of their crews can be returned to service quickly. Aiui after 1945 Eastern Europe & the SU were littered with tank carcasses for years.
Ukraine has been similarly recovering damaged captured Russian tanks, and there at least some documentation some of them back in service.
Seems a bit odd that resources are allocated to tank recovery at this stage of the conflict, and that ones containing the disassembled remains of their crews can be returned to service quickly. Aiui after 1945 Eastern Europe & the SU were littered with tank carcasses for years.
Yes, we need a military expert - ie not @Dura_Ace - to tell us if this makes sense
The source - Belarus news service Nasha Niva - seems credible and legitimate, tho it is definitely anti-war and anti-Putin, at first glance. It is interesting in itself that such dissident voices still exist in Minsk
It also confirms that Russian material losses are even higher than those already known about here:
#Belarusian conscripts wash tanks from the remains of #Russian soldiers--The Belarusian edition Nasha Niva In the Komarin area, near Gomel conscripts repiar wrecked and broken Russian equipment. They ask for anti-nausea medicine. unian.net/world/soldaty-…‘
How and why would they be recovering all these tanks? If they are on the end of a NLAW or Javelin, there isn't much to recover in the first place.
Also, if you are subject to constant ambushes, why would you be sending out teams to try and pick up ones that are just lightly damaged. Sounds like a recipe for just losing more kit.
From the start of tanks - WWI - recovering tanks from the battlefield has been a thing.
During WWI, cleaning out the remains of crew from destroyed tanks was a punishment detail. It was considered worse than the burial details - the combination of ways people die in tanks and the enclosed space.
I know it’s a film and not a doc but there is a scene early on in Fury where the new recruit has to remove the remains of his predecessor from the tank - not pleasant.
Even their nuclear advantage will decline over time. It is unclear they can purchase all the inputs needed to maintain nukes over time. Plus the US is investing heavily in anti-missile technology via its close defense work with the Israelis. There could come a point in the future where the West could shoot all the nukes out of the sky.
The word "could" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. I'd note that the US, Russian, and Chinese governments have much less ambitious aims for their ABM systems, limiting their expensive programmes to shooting down a few missiles from a rogue state, or defending only a small area. People have been working on ABM systems for over 60 years, and the cost of such systems has always favoured the attacker. i.e. It's cheap to up the number of targets, but it's expensive to increase the number and type of targets that can be engaged.
As the IRA observed "You have to be lucky always. We only have to be lucky once."
It's really quite simple. A decoy is dirt cheap, so you can lots of those for not much money, but you can't have a decoy interceptor, those have to be real. Never mind electronic warfare where you end up firing very expensive ABM missiles at ghosts.
Hence things like Sprint - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_(missile) - which were designed to take out the incoming warheads after the decoys (which are basically balloons) become obvious during re-entry.
Seems a bit odd that resources are allocated to tank recovery at this stage of the conflict, and that ones containing the disassembled remains of their crews can be returned to service quickly. Aiui after 1945 Eastern Europe & the SU were littered with tank carcasses for years.
This bloke sounds knowledgeable
More common than capturing enemy weapons off a battlefield, was each side salvaging their own equipment. All of the major armies had repair & recovery units specializing in getting salvageable equipment off the battlefield. The Soviet and American armies were very adept at this, in both cases not only were there specialized recovery units but some themselves were sub-specialized in taking equipment off “hot” battlefields, even stripping or towing vehicles under the cover of darkness.
...
The M32 is a good example of a WWII vehicle dedicated to recovering and towing wrecked tanks. Based on the M4 Sherman tank chassis, it had a 30-ton deadlift A-frame crane and a front-mounted winch. The highly successful M32 served in WWII, the Korean War, and beyond.
The Ukraine war is moving towards a stalemate according to what I have read. The Russian aim for a quick victory has been thwarted but they now move on to plan B, i.e. pound the cities into submission with bombs.
What puzzles me is why the successful Ukrainian attacks with hand-held rockets and drones against tanks and vehicles would not work against artillery howitzers. Can anyone explain?
I think the howitzers are a lot further away - often actually inside Russia.
I think that artillery will be effectively positioned in an optimal area for their targets and so because they aren’t moving around you can put a screen of soldiers out to defend them and so it’s harder for Ukrainians to get close enough or in a good position to hit them with hand helds.
Tanks etc need to move around the place so they can’t be properly protected everywhere they go.
Hence the importance of the Ukrainians getting more drones with longer hang times and more payload.
#Belarusian conscripts wash tanks from the remains of #Russian soldiers--The Belarusian edition Nasha Niva In the Komarin area, near Gomel conscripts repiar wrecked and broken Russian equipment. They ask for anti-nausea medicine. unian.net/world/soldaty-…‘
How and why would they be recovering all these tanks? If they are on the end of a NLAW or Javelin, there isn't much to recover in the first place.
Also, if you are subject to constant ambushes, why would you be sending out teams to try and pick up ones that are just lightly damaged. Sounds like a recipe for just losing more kit.
Finally, it seems the Ukrainians are very quick to a) steal them and b) strip them of anything useful. I saw a video the other day where they are sending them off to car repair shops, who are cutting off anything worthwhile and repurposing it.
ARVs - armoured recovery vehicles - have been around almost as long as the tank. Not all battle damaged tanks are inoperable (though it’s likely to be more lightly armoured vehicles - APCs etc - which are both repairable, and have dead inside). Disabled recoverable tanks most often have track damage.
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
I’m missing the bit where, in any circumstances, thus would justify rUK invading Scotland, razing Edinburgh to the ground, deporting the surviving population to Wales and repopulating the country with a bunch of Sassenachs
Well, it doesn't, as it doesn't in Russia's case either, but yet it's not impossible to see circumstances where the scenario might get really ugly.
I am confident that, despite @HYUFD entreaties, rUK would not invade Scotland.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
No, we could just refuse Scotland a trade deal if they joined the EU instead.
Though if a Scottish nationalist government was ever granted an indyref2 and Yes won then the Scottish borders could well become the Scottish Donbass region, a disputed region claimed by both the rUK and Scottish government with a Unionist pro British majority stoll
Seems a bit odd that resources are allocated to tank recovery at this stage of the conflict, and that ones containing the disassembled remains of their crews can be returned to service quickly. Aiui after 1945 Eastern Europe & the SU were littered with tank carcasses for years.
This bloke sounds knowledgeable
More common than capturing enemy weapons off a battlefield, was each side salvaging their own equipment. All of the major armies had repair & recovery units specializing in getting salvageable equipment off the battlefield. The Soviet and American armies were very adept at this, in both cases not only were there specialized recovery units but some themselves were sub-specialized in taking equipment off “hot” battlefields, even stripping or towing vehicles under the cover of darkness.
...
The M32 is a good example of a WWII vehicle dedicated to recovering and towing wrecked tanks. Based on the M4 Sherman tank chassis, it had a 30-ton deadlift A-frame crane and a front-mounted winch. The highly successful M32 served in WWII, the Korean War, and beyond.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Seems a bit odd that resources are allocated to tank recovery at this stage of the conflict, and that ones containing the disassembled remains of their crews can be returned to service quickly. Aiui after 1945 Eastern Europe & the SU were littered with tank carcasses for years.
This bloke sounds knowledgeable
More common than capturing enemy weapons off a battlefield, was each side salvaging their own equipment. All of the major armies had repair & recovery units specializing in getting salvageable equipment off the battlefield. The Soviet and American armies were very adept at this, in both cases not only were there specialized recovery units but some themselves were sub-specialized in taking equipment off “hot” battlefields, even stripping or towing vehicles under the cover of darkness.
...
The M32 is a good example of a WWII vehicle dedicated to recovering and towing wrecked tanks. Based on the M4 Sherman tank chassis, it had a 30-ton deadlift A-frame crane and a front-mounted winch. The highly successful M32 served in WWII, the Korean War, and beyond.
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
I’m missing the bit where, in any circumstances, thus would justify rUK invading Scotland, razing Edinburgh to the ground, deporting the surviving population to Wales and repopulating the country with a bunch of Sassenachs
Well, it doesn't, as it doesn't in Russia's case either, but yet it's not impossible to see circumstances where the scenario might get really ugly.
I am confident that, despite @HYUFD entreaties, rUK would not invade Scotland.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
No, we could just refuse Scotland a trade deal if they joined the EU instead.
Though if a Scottish nationalist government was ever granted an indyref2 and Yes won then the Scottish borders could well become the Scottish Donbass region, a disputed region claimed by both the rUK and Scottish government with a Unionist pro British majority stoll
You really are being nasty again (para 2). And as for para 1, you think there would be no trade deal with the EU?
#Belarusian conscripts wash tanks from the remains of #Russian soldiers--The Belarusian edition Nasha Niva In the Komarin area, near Gomel conscripts repiar wrecked and broken Russian equipment. They ask for anti-nausea medicine. unian.net/world/soldaty-…‘
How and why would they be recovering all these tanks? If they are on the end of a NLAW or Javelin, there isn't much to recover in the first place.
Also, if you are subject to constant ambushes, why would you be sending out teams to try and pick up ones that are just lightly damaged. Sounds like a recipe for just losing more kit.
Finally, it seems the Ukrainians are very quick to a) steal them and b) strip them of anything useful. I saw a video the other day where they are sending them off to car repair shops, who are cutting off anything worthwhile and repurposing it.
I've seen two terms used: an M-kill and a K-Kill (I think!). An M-kill is a hit that hurts the vehicles mobility - tracks, wheels or engine. A K-Kill is a 'full' (Catastrophic) kill. An M-kill could be towed back for repair and reuse.
Also, these tanks contain lots of useful and expensive kit, some of which will be salvageable.
Distressing stories coming out of Belarus, of the local soldiers being forced to clean Russian tanks
And when I say "clean" I mean: hosing out the remains of Russian soldiers. Apparently this chore is known to cause deep trauma in anyone tasked with it, hence the Russians using Belarusians
Such a charming regime
Why are tanks full of body parts in Belarus? Who drove them there?
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
I’m missing the bit where, in any circumstances, thus would justify rUK invading Scotland, razing Edinburgh to the ground, deporting the surviving population to Wales and repopulating the country with a bunch of Sassenachs
Well, it doesn't, as it doesn't in Russia's case either, but yet it's not impossible to see circumstances where the scenario might get really ugly.
I am confident that, despite @HYUFD entreaties, rUK would not invade Scotland.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
No, we could just refuse Scotland a trade deal if they joined the EU instead.
Though if a Scottish nationalist government was ever granted an indyref2 and Yes won then the Scottish borders could well become the Scottish Donbass region, a disputed region claimed by both the rUK and Scottish government with a Unionist pro British majority stoll
You really are being nasty again (para 2). And as for para 1, you think there would be no trade deal with the EU?
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
I’m missing the bit where, in any circumstances, thus would justify rUK invading Scotland, razing Edinburgh to the ground, deporting the surviving population to Wales and repopulating the country with a bunch of Sassenachs
Well, it doesn't, as it doesn't in Russia's case either, but yet it's not impossible to see circumstances where the scenario might get really ugly.
I am confident that, despite @HYUFD entreaties, rUK would not invade Scotland.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
No, we could just refuse Scotland a trade deal if they joined the EU instead.
Though if a Scottish nationalist government was ever granted an indyref2 and Yes won then the Scottish borders could well become the Scottish Donbass region, a disputed region claimed by both the rUK and Scottish government with a Unionist pro British majority stoll
Looks like the bellendery TSE spoke of in the header is not just limited to the nationalist side of the independence debate. Whoever could have guessed that would be the case?
Seems a bit odd that resources are allocated to tank recovery at this stage of the conflict, and that ones containing the disassembled remains of their crews can be returned to service quickly. Aiui after 1945 Eastern Europe & the SU were littered with tank carcasses for years.
This bloke sounds knowledgeable
More common than capturing enemy weapons off a battlefield, was each side salvaging their own equipment. All of the major armies had repair & recovery units specializing in getting salvageable equipment off the battlefield. The Soviet and American armies were very adept at this, in both cases not only were there specialized recovery units but some themselves were sub-specialized in taking equipment off “hot” battlefields, even stripping or towing vehicles under the cover of darkness.
...
The M32 is a good example of a WWII vehicle dedicated to recovering and towing wrecked tanks. Based on the M4 Sherman tank chassis, it had a 30-ton deadlift A-frame crane and a front-mounted winch. The highly successful M32 served in WWII, the Korean War, and beyond.
The worst part of the job is hosing out human remains; it is so bad it has been used as a field punishment, and it causes deep trauma
The Russians, in surprise news to no one, are getting their ‘allies’ in Belarus to do this bit, instead of traumatising their own troops
It's a really smart idea of course to damage the Belarusian military at this stage. After all, Lukashenko didn't barely survive being toppled less than three years ago when everyone ignored his bizarrely rigged election results, with the support of his own army and the Russian army.
I mean, if he had barely survived and was hanging on by his fingernails, next time he might actually be toppled and Russia would lose its last ally.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
@ Stillwaters. You clearly have not heard the narrative that he who pokes the bear is responsible for the carnage caused by the awoken bear. (And no, I did not just mention WOKE)
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
I’m missing the bit where, in any circumstances, thus would justify rUK invading Scotland, razing Edinburgh to the ground, deporting the surviving population to Wales and repopulating the country with a bunch of Sassenachs
Well, it doesn't, as it doesn't in Russia's case either, but yet it's not impossible to see circumstances where the scenario might get really ugly.
I am confident that, despite @HYUFD entreaties, rUK would not invade Scotland.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
No, we could just refuse Scotland a trade deal if they joined the EU instead.
Though if a Scottish nationalist government was ever granted an indyref2 and Yes won then the Scottish borders could well become the Scottish Donbass region, a disputed region claimed by both the rUK and Scottish government with a Unionist pro British majority stoll
You really are being nasty again (para 2). And as for para 1, you think there would be no trade deal with the EU?
Please do NOT feed the Putunists
Now, hang on. Hyufd is a great many things, but he is definitely not a Putinist.
Zelenskyy has been speaking to the Knesset. He quoted Shakespeare and Churchill in the UK, mentioned Pearl Harbour and 9/11 to the US Congress. I can have a guess at the angle he might use with Israel.
Zelenskyy has been speaking to the Knesset. He quoted Shakespeare and Churchill in the UK, mentioned Pearl Harbour and 9/11 to the US Congress. I can have a guess at the angle he might use with Israel.
Will he quote The Merchant of Venice and say he dare not give Russia their pound of flesh?
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
I’m missing the bit where, in any circumstances, thus would justify rUK invading Scotland, razing Edinburgh to the ground, deporting the surviving population to Wales and repopulating the country with a bunch of Sassenachs
Well, it doesn't, as it doesn't in Russia's case either, but yet it's not impossible to see circumstances where the scenario might get really ugly.
I am confident that, despite @HYUFD entreaties, rUK would not invade Scotland.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
No, we could just refuse Scotland a trade deal if they joined the EU instead.
Though if a Scottish nationalist government was ever granted an indyref2 and Yes won then the Scottish borders could well become the Scottish Donbass region, a disputed region claimed by both the rUK and Scottish government with a Unionist pro British majority stoll
You really are being nasty again (para 2). And as for para 1, you think there would be no trade deal with the EU?
I find your habit of getting incensed by Hy very odd. You're far too sensible, he's just getting a rise from you.
Even their nuclear advantage will decline over time. It is unclear they can purchase all the inputs needed to maintain nukes over time. Plus the US is investing heavily in anti-missile technology via its close defense work with the Israelis. There could come a point in the future where the West could shoot all the nukes out of the sky.
The word "could" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. I'd note that the US, Russian, and Chinese governments have much less ambitious aims for their ABM systems, limiting their expensive programmes to shooting down a few missiles from a rogue state, or defending only a small area. People have been working on ABM systems for over 60 years, and the cost of such systems has always favoured the attacker. i.e. It's cheap to up the number of targets, but it's expensive to increase the number and type of targets that can be engaged.
As the IRA observed "You have to be lucky always. We only have to be lucky once."
It's really quite simple. A decoy is dirt cheap, so you can lots of those for not much money, but you can't have a decoy interceptor, those have to be real. Never mind electronic warfare where you end up firing very expensive ABM missiles at ghosts.
Hence things like Sprint - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_(missile) - which were designed to take out the incoming warheads after the decoys (which are basically balloons) become obvious during re-entry.
0 to Mach Ten in 5 seconds.
I hike with my son up to the Nike silos in Los Angeles - I'll have to show him what the missiles looked like.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
A chance for the country to upgrade to newer, more efficient and less polluting facilities at Russian expense, insha'a allah.
Zelenskyy has been speaking to the Knesset. He quoted Shakespeare and Churchill in the UK, mentioned Pearl Harbour and 9/11 to the US Congress. I can have a guess at the angle he might use with Israel.
It's almost like he's a competent media performer who knows his audience.
Following your rather grisly post, I have to recount to you a story told me by my late brother-in-law who worked for many years on London Underground.
He said they had a special crew for dealing with 'people under'. They were used to it and took what for most of us would be deeply disturbing work very much in their stride. Indeed they became rather blase about it, or so he said.
On one occasion they managed to recover the body of a suicide without difficulty, but not the head. By chance the wheels of the train had sliced it neatly off and sent it careering down the track. One of the men spotted it far down the tunnel and went to collect it. When he got to it he realised he was actually neared the next station than the one where the incident had happpened, so he picked the severed head up by the hair and marched on along the tunnel until he emerged at the next stop where the platform was obviously full due to the unexpected delay in the service.
Now a man emerging from a train tunnel holding a severed head would be a pretty shocking site even if you were expecting it, so it won't surprise you to know that many passengers fainted and had to be treated in situ. The worker was given a few days gardening leave.
I have no idea if this story is true but knowing my b-i-l and some of the guys he worked with I can well believe it.
Zelenskyy has been speaking to the Knesset. He quoted Shakespeare and Churchill in the UK, mentioned Pearl Harbour and 9/11 to the US Congress. I can have a guess at the angle he might use with Israel.
It's almost like he's a competent media performer who knows his audience.
I noticed that, in his speech to the Bundestag, he spoke of Babi Yar and the Holocaust. Almost as he if knows that German guilt, rather than German pride, is the button to push in Berlin
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
History suggests, though, that with outside support, countries can rebuild remarkably quickly.
I believe West German GDP was reaching new highs by 1950 in the early 1950s.
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
I’m missing the bit where, in any circumstances, thus would justify rUK invading Scotland, razing Edinburgh to the ground, deporting the surviving population to Wales and repopulating the country with a bunch of Sassenachs
Well, it doesn't, as it doesn't in Russia's case either, but yet it's not impossible to see circumstances where the scenario might get really ugly.
I am confident that, despite @HYUFD entreaties, rUK would not invade Scotland.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
No, we could just refuse Scotland a trade deal if they joined the EU instead.
Though if a Scottish nationalist government was ever granted an indyref2 and Yes won then the Scottish borders could well become the Scottish Donbass region, a disputed region claimed by both the rUK and Scottish government with a Unionist pro British majority stoll
You really are being nasty again (para 2). And as for para 1, you think there would be no trade deal with the EU?
I find your habit of getting incensed by Hy very odd. You're far too sensible, he's just getting a rise from you.
Not being incensed, just pointing out the defects in his logic etc. Notably the idea that there would be no trade agreement with the EU.
Seems a bit odd that resources are allocated to tank recovery at this stage of the conflict, and that ones containing the disassembled remains of their crews can be returned to service quickly. Aiui after 1945 Eastern Europe & the SU were littered with tank carcasses for years.
This bloke sounds knowledgeable
More common than capturing enemy weapons off a battlefield, was each side salvaging their own equipment. All of the major armies had repair & recovery units specializing in getting salvageable equipment off the battlefield. The Soviet and American armies were very adept at this, in both cases not only were there specialized recovery units but some themselves were sub-specialized in taking equipment off “hot” battlefields, even stripping or towing vehicles under the cover of darkness.
...
The M32 is a good example of a WWII vehicle dedicated to recovering and towing wrecked tanks. Based on the M4 Sherman tank chassis, it had a 30-ton deadlift A-frame crane and a front-mounted winch. The highly successful M32 served in WWII, the Korean War, and beyond.
Yeah, I know most modern armies have ARVs and recovery units, I’m just surprised that it’s a major thing that the Belorussians are involved with right at the minute.
Here’s a pic of an actual ARV round the corner from me, though the gimps that rented it out thought that tieing a scaffolding pole to it turned it into a tank.
The Ukraine war is moving towards a stalemate according to what I have read. The Russian aim for a quick victory has been thwarted but they now move on to plan B, i.e. pound the cities into submission with bombs.
What puzzles me is why the successful Ukrainian attacks with hand-held rockets and drones against tanks and vehicles would not work against artillery howitzers. Can anyone explain?
I'd like to know the answer to that too.
Also how well the Ukrainians are getting on with training reservists.
I'm *guessing*, but for non-self propelled howitzers, there's probably not much to hit. A tank has ammo stored within, an engine, and is a confined space for the crew. A towed howtizer can have ammo stored a short distance away, and is much smaller in profile.
They are hitting some, but by its nature, artillery isn’t in the front line, which is why so many more combat vehicles have been destroyed/captured. Losses (documented below) are still significant.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html …Towed Artillery (36, of which destroyed: 4, damaged: 2 abandoned: 5, captured: 25) Self-Propelled Artillery (40, of which destroyed: 10, abandoned: 12, captured: 17) Multiple Rocket Launchers (30, of which destroyed: 14, abandoned: 4, captured: 12)…
Note Ukraine also captured several Russian ARVs, so they are definitely used in the front line.
Zelenskyy has been speaking to the Knesset. He quoted Shakespeare and Churchill in the UK, mentioned Pearl Harbour and 9/11 to the US Congress. I can have a guess at the angle he might use with Israel.
It's almost like he's a competent media performer who knows his audience.
Didn't he also mention the Wall when addressing the Bundestag?
Following your rather grisly post, I have to recount to you a story told me by my late brother-in-law who worked for many years on London Underground.
He said they had a special crew for dealing with 'people under'. They were used to it and took what for most of us would be deeply disturbing work very much in their stride. Indeed they became rather blase about it, or so he said.
On one occasion they managed to recover the body of a suicide without difficulty, but not the head. By chance the wheels of the train had sliced it neatly off and sent it careering down the track. One of the men spotted it far down the tunnel and went to collect it. When he got to it he realised he was actually neared the next station than the one where the incident had happpened, so he picked the severed head up by the hair and marched on along the tunnel until he emerged at the next stop where the platform was obviously full due to the unexpected delay in the service.
Now a man emerging from a train tunnel holding a severed head would be a pretty shocking site even if you were expecting it, so it won't surprise you to know that many passengers fainted and had to be treated in situ. The worker was given a few days gardening leave.
I have no idea if this story is true but knowing my b-i-l and some of the guys he worked with I can well believe it.
A gruesomely brilliant story. An unwholesome bit of me *wants* it to be true
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
I’m missing the bit where, in any circumstances, thus would justify rUK invading Scotland, razing Edinburgh to the ground, deporting the surviving population to Wales and repopulating the country with a bunch of Sassenachs
Well, it doesn't, as it doesn't in Russia's case either, but yet it's not impossible to see circumstances where the scenario might get really ugly.
I am confident that, despite @HYUFD entreaties, rUK would not invade Scotland.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
No, we could just refuse Scotland a trade deal if they joined the EU instead.
Though if a Scottish nationalist government was ever granted an indyref2 and Yes won then the Scottish borders could well become the Scottish Donbass region, a disputed region claimed by both the rUK and Scottish government with a Unionist pro British majority stoll
You really are being nasty again (para 2). And as for para 1, you think there would be no trade deal with the EU?
I find your habit of getting incensed by Hy very odd. You're far too sensible, he's just getting a rise from you.
Not being incensed, just pointing out the defects in his logic etc. Notably the idea that there would be no trade agreement with the EU.
Seems a bit odd that resources are allocated to tank recovery at this stage of the conflict, and that ones containing the disassembled remains of their crews can be returned to service quickly. Aiui after 1945 Eastern Europe & the SU were littered with tank carcasses for years.
This bloke sounds knowledgeable
More common than capturing enemy weapons off a battlefield, was each side salvaging their own equipment. All of the major armies had repair & recovery units specializing in getting salvageable equipment off the battlefield. The Soviet and American armies were very adept at this, in both cases not only were there specialized recovery units but some themselves were sub-specialized in taking equipment off “hot” battlefields, even stripping or towing vehicles under the cover of darkness.
...
The M32 is a good example of a WWII vehicle dedicated to recovering and towing wrecked tanks. Based on the M4 Sherman tank chassis, it had a 30-ton deadlift A-frame crane and a front-mounted winch. The highly successful M32 served in WWII, the Korean War, and beyond.
Yeah, I know most modern armies have ARVs and recovery units, I’m just surprised that it’s a major thing that the Belorussians are involved with right at the minute.
Here’s a pic of an actual ARV round the corner from me, though the gimps that rented it out thought that tieing a scaffolding guy pole to it turned it into a tank.
Following your rather grisly post, I have to recount to you a story told me by my late brother-in-law who worked for many years on London Underground.
He said they had a special crew for dealing with 'people under'. They were used to it and took what for most of us would be deeply disturbing work very much in their stride. Indeed they became rather blase about it, or so he said.
On one occasion they managed to recover the body of a suicide without difficulty, but not the head. By chance the wheels of the train had sliced it neatly off and sent it careering down the track. One of the men spotted it far down the tunnel and went to collect it. When he got to it he realised he was actually neared the next station than the one where the incident had happpened, so he picked the severed head up by the hair and marched on along the tunnel until he emerged at the next stop where the platform was obviously full due to the unexpected delay in the service.
Now a man emerging from a train tunnel holding a severed head would be a pretty shocking site even if you were expecting it, so it won't surprise you to know that many passengers fainted and had to be treated in situ. The worker was given a few days gardening leave.
I have no idea if this story is true but knowing my b-i-l and some of the guys he worked with I can well believe it.
A gruesomely brilliant story. An unwholesome bit of me *wants* it to be true
Following your rather grisly post, I have to recount to you a story told me by my late brother-in-law who worked for many years on London Underground.
He said they had a special crew for dealing with 'people under'. They were used to it and took what for most of us would be deeply disturbing work very much in their stride. Indeed they became rather blase about it, or so he said.
On one occasion they managed to recover the body of a suicide without difficulty, but not the head. By chance the wheels of the train had sliced it neatly off and sent it careering down the track. One of the men spotted it far down the tunnel and went to collect it. When he got to it he realised he was actually neared the next station than the one where the incident had happpened, so he picked the severed head up by the hair and marched on along the tunnel until he emerged at the next stop where the platform was obviously full due to the unexpected delay in the service.
Now a man emerging from a train tunnel holding a severed head would be a pretty shocking site even if you were expecting it, so it won't surprise you to know that many passengers fainted and had to be treated in situ. The worker was given a few days gardening leave.
I have no idea if this story is true but knowing my b-i-l and some of the guys he worked with I can well believe it.
I can believe it.
An uncle of a friend of mine was an undertaker and he attended many railway fatalities. On one occasion the head had not been found, but the train had been allowed to move on anyway. It turned out the head was trapped behind a buffer.
"Thomas the tank engine has arrived at Platform 4" was what one wag said when it was eventually discovered at Waterloo...
Zelenskyy has been speaking to the Knesset. He quoted Shakespeare and Churchill in the UK, mentioned Pearl Harbour and 9/11 to the US Congress. I can have a guess at the angle he might use with Israel.
It's almost like he's a competent media performer who knows his audience.
I noticed that, in his speech to the Bundestag, he spoke of Babi Yar and the Holocaust. Almost as he if knows that German guilt, rather than German pride, is the button to push in Berlin
Someone from Greece tried that once - Yanis Varoufakis was it? - and it went down like a bucket of cold sick.
Seems a bit odd that resources are allocated to tank recovery at this stage of the conflict, and that ones containing the disassembled remains of their crews can be returned to service quickly. Aiui after 1945 Eastern Europe & the SU were littered with tank carcasses for years.
This bloke sounds knowledgeable
More common than capturing enemy weapons off a battlefield, was each side salvaging their own equipment. All of the major armies had repair & recovery units specializing in getting salvageable equipment off the battlefield. The Soviet and American armies were very adept at this, in both cases not only were there specialized recovery units but some themselves were sub-specialized in taking equipment off “hot” battlefields, even stripping or towing vehicles under the cover of darkness.
...
The M32 is a good example of a WWII vehicle dedicated to recovering and towing wrecked tanks. Based on the M4 Sherman tank chassis, it had a 30-ton deadlift A-frame crane and a front-mounted winch. The highly successful M32 served in WWII, the Korean War, and beyond.
Yeah, I know most modern armies have ARVs and recovery units, I’m just surprised that it’s a major thing that the Belorussians are involved with right at the minute.
Here’s a pic of an actual ARV round the corner from me, though the gimps that rented it out thought that tieing a scaffolding guy pole to it turned it into a tank.
Seems a bit odd that resources are allocated to tank recovery at this stage of the conflict, and that ones containing the disassembled remains of their crews can be returned to service quickly. Aiui after 1945 Eastern Europe & the SU were littered with tank carcasses for years.
This bloke sounds knowledgeable
More common than capturing enemy weapons off a battlefield, was each side salvaging their own equipment. All of the major armies had repair & recovery units specializing in getting salvageable equipment off the battlefield. The Soviet and American armies were very adept at this, in both cases not only were there specialized recovery units but some themselves were sub-specialized in taking equipment off “hot” battlefields, even stripping or towing vehicles under the cover of darkness.
...
The M32 is a good example of a WWII vehicle dedicated to recovering and towing wrecked tanks. Based on the M4 Sherman tank chassis, it had a 30-ton deadlift A-frame crane and a front-mounted winch. The highly successful M32 served in WWII, the Korean War, and beyond.
Yeah, I know most modern armies have ARVs and recovery units, I’m just surprised that it’s a major thing that the Belorussians are involved with right at the minute.
Here’s a pic of an actual ARV round the corner from me, though the gimps that rented it out thought that tieing a scaffolding pole to it turned it into a tank.
I'm guessing that isn't your first choice watering hole in Glasgow
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
I’m missing the bit where, in any circumstances, thus would justify rUK invading Scotland, razing Edinburgh to the ground, deporting the surviving population to Wales and repopulating the country with a bunch of Sassenachs
Well, it doesn't, as it doesn't in Russia's case either, but yet it's not impossible to see circumstances where the scenario might get really ugly.
I am confident that, despite @HYUFD entreaties, rUK would not invade Scotland.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
No, we could just refuse Scotland a trade deal if they joined the EU instead.
Though if a Scottish nationalist government was ever granted an indyref2 and Yes won then the Scottish borders could well become the Scottish Donbass region, a disputed region claimed by both the rUK and Scottish government with a Unionist pro British majority stoll
You really are being nasty again (para 2). And as for para 1, you think there would be no trade deal with the EU?
Please do NOT feed the Putunists
Now, hang on. Hyufd is a great many things, but he is definitely not a Putinist.
I beg to differ. Defending Putin's invasion on grounds that Ukraine provoked it, is THE Putinist line de jour.
Or perhaps you're convinced by chicken-shit, 180-degree rhetorical reversals, uttered for utterly political motivations?
Seems a bit odd that resources are allocated to tank recovery at this stage of the conflict, and that ones containing the disassembled remains of their crews can be returned to service quickly. Aiui after 1945 Eastern Europe & the SU were littered with tank carcasses for years.
This bloke sounds knowledgeable
More common than capturing enemy weapons off a battlefield, was each side salvaging their own equipment. All of the major armies had repair & recovery units specializing in getting salvageable equipment off the battlefield. The Soviet and American armies were very adept at this, in both cases not only were there specialized recovery units but some themselves were sub-specialized in taking equipment off “hot” battlefields, even stripping or towing vehicles under the cover of darkness.
...
The M32 is a good example of a WWII vehicle dedicated to recovering and towing wrecked tanks. Based on the M4 Sherman tank chassis, it had a 30-ton deadlift A-frame crane and a front-mounted winch. The highly successful M32 served in WWII, the Korean War, and beyond.
Yeah, I know most modern armies have ARVs and recovery units, I’m just surprised that it’s a major thing that the Belorussians are involved with right at the minute.
Here’s a pic of an actual ARV round the corner from me, though the gimps that rented it out thought that tieing a scaffolding pole to it turned it into a tank.
I'm guessing that isn't your first choice watering hope in Glasgow
Given my first name, would I get a free round there?
Seems a bit odd that resources are allocated to tank recovery at this stage of the conflict, and that ones containing the disassembled remains of their crews can be returned to service quickly. Aiui after 1945 Eastern Europe & the SU were littered with tank carcasses for years.
This bloke sounds knowledgeable
More common than capturing enemy weapons off a battlefield, was each side salvaging their own equipment. All of the major armies had repair & recovery units specializing in getting salvageable equipment off the battlefield. The Soviet and American armies were very adept at this, in both cases not only were there specialized recovery units but some themselves were sub-specialized in taking equipment off “hot” battlefields, even stripping or towing vehicles under the cover of darkness.
...
The M32 is a good example of a WWII vehicle dedicated to recovering and towing wrecked tanks. Based on the M4 Sherman tank chassis, it had a 30-ton deadlift A-frame crane and a front-mounted winch. The highly successful M32 served in WWII, the Korean War, and beyond.
Yeah, I know most modern armies have ARVs and recovery units, I’m just surprised that it’s a major thing that the Belorussians are involved with right at the minute.
Here’s a pic of an actual ARV round the corner from me, though the gimps that rented it out thought that tieing a scaffolding guy pole to it turned it into a tank.
Following your rather grisly post, I have to recount to you a story told me by my late brother-in-law who worked for many years on London Underground.
He said they had a special crew for dealing with 'people under'. They were used to it and took what for most of us would be deeply disturbing work very much in their stride. Indeed they became rather blase about it, or so he said.
On one occasion they managed to recover the body of a suicide without difficulty, but not the head. By chance the wheels of the train had sliced it neatly off and sent it careering down the track. One of the men spotted it far down the tunnel and went to collect it. When he got to it he realised he was actually neared the next station than the one where the incident had happpened, so he picked the severed head up by the hair and marched on along the tunnel until he emerged at the next stop where the platform was obviously full due to the unexpected delay in the service.
Now a man emerging from a train tunnel holding a severed head would be a pretty shocking site even if you were expecting it, so it won't surprise you to know that many passengers fainted and had to be treated in situ. The worker was given a few days gardening leave.
I have no idea if this story is true but knowing my b-i-l and some of the guys he worked with I can well believe it.
A gruesomely brilliant story. An unwholesome bit of me *wants* it to be true
Seems a bit odd that resources are allocated to tank recovery at this stage of the conflict, and that ones containing the disassembled remains of their crews can be returned to service quickly. Aiui after 1945 Eastern Europe & the SU were littered with tank carcasses for years.
This bloke sounds knowledgeable
More common than capturing enemy weapons off a battlefield, was each side salvaging their own equipment. All of the major armies had repair & recovery units specializing in getting salvageable equipment off the battlefield. The Soviet and American armies were very adept at this, in both cases not only were there specialized recovery units but some themselves were sub-specialized in taking equipment off “hot” battlefields, even stripping or towing vehicles under the cover of darkness.
...
The M32 is a good example of a WWII vehicle dedicated to recovering and towing wrecked tanks. Based on the M4 Sherman tank chassis, it had a 30-ton deadlift A-frame crane and a front-mounted winch. The highly successful M32 served in WWII, the Korean War, and beyond.
Yeah, I know most modern armies have ARVs and recovery units, I’m just surprised that it’s a major thing that the Belorussians are involved with right at the minute.
Here’s a pic of an actual ARV round the corner from me, though the gimps that rented it out thought that tieing a scaffolding pole to it turned it into a tank.
I'm guessing that isn't your first choice watering hope in Glasgow
Given my first name, would I get a free round there?
Zelenskyy has been speaking to the Knesset. He quoted Shakespeare and Churchill in the UK, mentioned Pearl Harbour and 9/11 to the US Congress. I can have a guess at the angle he might use with Israel.
It's almost like he's a competent media performer who knows his audience.
I noticed that, in his speech to the Bundestag, he spoke of Babi Yar and the Holocaust. Almost as he if knows that German guilt, rather than German pride, is the button to push in Berlin
Someone from Greece tried that once - Yanis Varoufakis was it? - and it went down like a bucket of cold sick.
He's not Zelensky. Zelensky is an exceedingly good media performer (and seems a good egg), but he's not going to be criticised whatever he says at the moment. It would be like booing Malala.
Following your rather grisly post, I have to recount to you a story told me by my late brother-in-law who worked for many years on London Underground.
He said they had a special crew for dealing with 'people under'. They were used to it and took what for most of us would be deeply disturbing work very much in their stride. Indeed they became rather blase about it, or so he said.
On one occasion they managed to recover the body of a suicide without difficulty, but not the head. By chance the wheels of the train had sliced it neatly off and sent it careering down the track. One of the men spotted it far down the tunnel and went to collect it. When he got to it he realised he was actually neared the next station than the one where the incident had happpened, so he picked the severed head up by the hair and marched on along the tunnel until he emerged at the next stop where the platform was obviously full due to the unexpected delay in the service.
Now a man emerging from a train tunnel holding a severed head would be a pretty shocking site even if you were expecting it, so it won't surprise you to know that many passengers fainted and had to be treated in situ. The worker was given a few days gardening leave.
I have no idea if this story is true but knowing my b-i-l and some of the guys he worked with I can well believe it.
I can believe it.
An uncle of a friend of mine was an undertaker and he attended many railway fatalities. On one occasion the head had not been found, but the train had been allowed to move on anyway. It turned out the head was trapped behind a buffer.
"Thomas the tank engine has arrived at Platform 4" was what one wag said when it was eventually discovered at Waterloo...
For a moment I was wondering if you were talking about the Necropolis Railway!
Seems a bit odd that resources are allocated to tank recovery at this stage of the conflict, and that ones containing the disassembled remains of their crews can be returned to service quickly. Aiui after 1945 Eastern Europe & the SU were littered with tank carcasses for years.
This bloke sounds knowledgeable
More common than capturing enemy weapons off a battlefield, was each side salvaging their own equipment. All of the major armies had repair & recovery units specializing in getting salvageable equipment off the battlefield. The Soviet and American armies were very adept at this, in both cases not only were there specialized recovery units but some themselves were sub-specialized in taking equipment off “hot” battlefields, even stripping or towing vehicles under the cover of darkness.
...
The M32 is a good example of a WWII vehicle dedicated to recovering and towing wrecked tanks. Based on the M4 Sherman tank chassis, it had a 30-ton deadlift A-frame crane and a front-mounted winch. The highly successful M32 served in WWII, the Korean War, and beyond.
Yeah, I know most modern armies have ARVs and recovery units, I’m just surprised that it’s a major thing that the Belorussians are involved with right at the minute.
Here’s a pic of an actual ARV round the corner from me, though the gimps that rented it out thought that tieing a scaffolding guy pole to it turned it into a tank.
Bristol bar? Are we back to the M32?
Perhaps it's like the Russian Navy.
They never go out without a tug to get them home again .
The Admiral Kuznetsov, the only carrier in the Russian navy, is being accompanied by a nuclear-powered Kirov-class battlecruiser - the Pyotr Velikiy, and a salvage tug. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38745364
Don't worry, Lewis Hamilton will be allowed to move into the correct place.
Not sure what David Croft is talking about regarding the rules. They very clearly stated all lapped cars must pass the safety car, so not sure what they've changed.
No it didn't. It said 'any.' Not 'all.'
The problem was not the Masi's actions broke the letter of the rules. It was that he broke the spirit of them. Because 'any' probably should have included 'all' and any (sorry) reasonable person would take it that way.
However, being caught between the gruesome pressures Mercedes and RBR were bringing to bear Masi seemed to be past reason,
More specifically, it said: “any cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car"
It is hard, if not impossible, to interpret that in any other way than all of them. This is a scenario where “any” does mean “all”
Such as “any race where the Safety Car is employed must…” can only refer to all races where the safety car is employed.
Where there is “any [x] must do [y]” it has to refer to all within category x. The “must” governs that, and was always there.
If anyone here can come up with any interpretation of the old rule other than meaning all cars that had been lapped by the leader were required to unlap, I invite them to try.
Following your rather grisly post, I have to recount to you a story told me by my late brother-in-law who worked for many years on London Underground.
He said they had a special crew for dealing with 'people under'. They were used to it and took what for most of us would be deeply disturbing work very much in their stride. Indeed they became rather blase about it, or so he said.
On one occasion they managed to recover the body of a suicide without difficulty, but not the head. By chance the wheels of the train had sliced it neatly off and sent it careering down the track. One of the men spotted it far down the tunnel and went to collect it. When he got to it he realised he was actually neared the next station than the one where the incident had happpened, so he picked the severed head up by the hair and marched on along the tunnel until he emerged at the next stop where the platform was obviously full due to the unexpected delay in the service.
Now a man emerging from a train tunnel holding a severed head would be a pretty shocking site even if you were expecting it, so it won't surprise you to know that many passengers fainted and had to be treated in situ. The worker was given a few days gardening leave.
I have no idea if this story is true but knowing my b-i-l and some of the guys he worked with I can well believe it.
A gruesomely brilliant story. An unwholesome bit of me *wants* it to be true
Seems a bit odd that resources are allocated to tank recovery at this stage of the conflict, and that ones containing the disassembled remains of their crews can be returned to service quickly. Aiui after 1945 Eastern Europe & the SU were littered with tank carcasses for years.
This bloke sounds knowledgeable
More common than capturing enemy weapons off a battlefield, was each side salvaging their own equipment. All of the major armies had repair & recovery units specializing in getting salvageable equipment off the battlefield. The Soviet and American armies were very adept at this, in both cases not only were there specialized recovery units but some themselves were sub-specialized in taking equipment off “hot” battlefields, even stripping or towing vehicles under the cover of darkness.
...
The M32 is a good example of a WWII vehicle dedicated to recovering and towing wrecked tanks. Based on the M4 Sherman tank chassis, it had a 30-ton deadlift A-frame crane and a front-mounted winch. The highly successful M32 served in WWII, the Korean War, and beyond.
Yeah, I know most modern armies have ARVs and recovery units, I’m just surprised that it’s a major thing that the Belorussians are involved with right at the minute.
Here’s a pic of an actual ARV round the corner from me, though the gimps that rented it out thought that tieing a scaffolding pole to it turned it into a tank.
I'm guessing that isn't your first choice watering hole in Glasgow
No indeed. The Louden Tavern is 30 paces up the road from it for that slightly more Unionjacky experience.
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
I’m missing the bit where, in any circumstances, thus would justify rUK invading Scotland, razing Edinburgh to the ground, deporting the surviving population to Wales and repopulating the country with a bunch of Sassenachs
Well, it doesn't, as it doesn't in Russia's case either, but yet it's not impossible to see circumstances where the scenario might get really ugly.
I am confident that, despite @HYUFD entreaties, rUK would not invade Scotland.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
No, we could just refuse Scotland a trade deal if they joined the EU instead.
Though if a Scottish nationalist government was ever granted an indyref2 and Yes won then the Scottish borders could well become the Scottish Donbass region, a disputed region claimed by both the rUK and Scottish government with a Unionist pro British majority stoll
You really are being nasty again (para 2). And as for para 1, you think there would be no trade deal with the EU?
Please do NOT feed the Putunists
Now, hang on. Hyufd is a great many things, but he is definitely not a Putinist.
I beg to differ. Defending Putin's invasion on grounds that Ukraine provoked it, is THE Putinist line de jour.
Or perhaps you're convinced by chicken-shit, 180-degree rhetorical reversals, uttered for utterly political motivations?
No, I'm just pointing out Putin hasn't yet endorsed the Tory line on anything so Hyufd wouldn't support him.
Zelenskyy has been speaking to the Knesset. He quoted Shakespeare and Churchill in the UK, mentioned Pearl Harbour and 9/11 to the US Congress. I can have a guess at the angle he might use with Israel.
It's almost like he's a competent media performer who knows his audience.
I noticed that, in his speech to the Bundestag, he spoke of Babi Yar and the Holocaust. Almost as he if knows that German guilt, rather than German pride, is the button to push in Berlin
Someone from Greece tried that once - Yanis Varoufakis was it? - and it went down like a bucket of cold sick.
He's not Zelensky. Zelensky is an exceedingly good media performer (and seems a good egg), but he's not going to be criticised whatever he says at the moment. It would be like booing Malala.
Yanis Varoufakis was critiquing German economic policy. From the German perspective, German Economic Policy is the Bestest in Europe (TM) and Greece has always had a shit economic policy. So water off a ducks back.
Zelensky is talking about life, death and survival. And moral choices. From the position of moral superiority.
Comments
But 37 seconds behind after 43 laps? Ouch.
The report seems legit - from local news in Belarus. I saw it a couple of hours ago. oO course it may be nonsense/disinfo. I'll try and find the tweet later; off to the gym now
There are however one or two jokers in the pack which could affect things. here are four:
1) What if the Russians clearly win and take over a destroyed Ukraine? Do the Tories gain because we kept out, or lose because NATO enabled the loss.
2) The UK ineptitude and general impossible form filling and useless help line approach to refugees could go several ways. Sadly if the subject of X million refugees all over Europe goes sour (and it might) then very quietly the people who want a humanitarian approach but confined mostly to Poland and Germany please will commend Boris and Patel with their votes though not their voice.
3) If the Russians back down or Putin loses out (resignation/exile/revolver) in any sense at all the incumbent government will gain from it.
4) By and large people will support our troops not being involved but only so long as there is no threat to western Europe.
There are too many unknowns to have any clarity. Who will form the next government is 50/50 between Tory and Labour led.
Tanks etc need to move around the place so they can’t be properly protected everywhere they go.
It is not an attempt to justify Russia's invasion, which is unjustifiable, though it is perhaps an attempt to understand how there might be a feeling of insecurity, as a larger overseas power expands its influence into an area hitherto part of one's own sphere.
*And thanks for calling it fancy!
servant of is the prefix salmond
I've been out fitting grab handles for a tenant who has now reached 67, and mentioned that she had had a bit of trouble on the tight stairs in her cottage, and could do with something for the bath.
And then tried to parley a grab handle for the bath-with-shower-over into a walk in shower, then into a new bathroom
Disturbing to think it's 26 years since he won the championship.
I don't agree with whoever-said-it that the alleged rapes by pre-surgery Transgender Women are a 'loophole'; I think this is a difference at the level of dogma ie belief, and ultimately cannot be fudged. Between pure self-determination of gender, and whether there must be a physical (ie surgical / medical) component. Layered on top of that are demands (in eg the Edinburgh Declaration - is it called?) to control medication including I think for children with little or no medical supervision.
It would be interesting to know the comparable figures for mixed-wards before 2010, when they went for single sex wards.
Perhaps the original issue @Cyclefree mentioned is one which needs a judicial review to put the fear of God into a few of the public sector institutions?
It's one which Great Jumping Jolyon should be willing to take on, but I don't think they will as they are more about politics than law.
Mr. W, seen your comment and will endeavour not to post spoilers in the immediate aftermath of the race.
Working on the post-race ramble.
⚡The Belarusian edition Nasha Niva reports that conscripts from the Republic of Belarus are laundering Russian tanks after hostility in Ukraine.‘
https://twitter.com/flash43191300/status/1504584894332215301?s=21
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNMCToQJ5EU
https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2022/03/bahrain-post-race-analysis-2022.html
#Belarusian conscripts wash tanks from the remains of #Russian soldiers--The Belarusian edition Nasha Niva
In the Komarin area, near Gomel conscripts repiar wrecked and broken Russian equipment. They ask for anti-nausea medicine. unian.net/world/soldaty-…‘
https://twitter.com/zarinazabrisky/status/1504639871608320002?s=21
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
Also, if you are subject to constant ambushes, why would you be sending out teams to try and pick up ones that are just lightly damaged. Sounds like a recipe for just losing more kit.
Finally, it seems the Ukrainians are very quick to a) steal them and b) strip them of anything useful. I saw a video the other day where they are sending them off to car repair shops, who are cutting off anything worthwhile and repurposing it.
Changing the civil service’s settled view that tidal doesn’t work takes energy and application. Something Boris is noted for…
* you can try any electricity jokes but I won’t understand them
The source - Belarus news service Nasha Niva - seems credible and legitimate, tho it is definitely anti-war and anti-Putin, at first glance. It is interesting in itself that such dissident voices still exist in Minsk
The 'evidence' in the case of suicides or fatalities being body parts. It was a grim job, and affected on otherwise unflappable person deeply. Especially when the driver reported having hit a cow, and it turned out to be a person.
Likewise, people at the depot have to go under the train looking for other pieces of 'evidence'.
The people doing that job don't get paid enough, and shame on people who just say 'it's their job'.
During WWI, cleaning out the remains of crew from destroyed tanks was a punishment detail. It was considered worse than the burial details - the combination of ways people die in tanks and the enclosed space.
So the conclusion is the same. Russia simple does not have the leadership and organizational skills to run a successful modern war or economy.
On one of the Twitter threads discussing this, a woman says that her Uncle had to do exactly this job in Vietnam. And it totally fucked with his head. So it clearly happens in war
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html
0 to Mach Ten in 5 seconds.
More common than capturing enemy weapons off a battlefield, was each side salvaging their own equipment. All of the major armies had repair & recovery units specializing in getting salvageable equipment off the battlefield. The Soviet and American armies were very adept at this, in both cases not only were there specialized recovery units but some themselves were sub-specialized in taking equipment off “hot” battlefields, even stripping or towing vehicles under the cover of darkness.
...
The M32 is a good example of a WWII vehicle dedicated to recovering and towing wrecked tanks. Based on the M4 Sherman tank chassis, it had a 30-ton deadlift A-frame crane and a front-mounted winch. The highly successful M32 served in WWII, the Korean War, and beyond.
https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/2017/02/20/cleaning-up-after-wwii/
Not all battle damaged tanks are inoperable (though it’s likely to be more lightly armoured vehicles - APCs etc - which are both repairable, and have dead inside).
Disabled recoverable tanks most often have track damage.
Though if a Scottish nationalist government was ever granted an indyref2 and Yes won then the Scottish borders could well become the Scottish Donbass region, a disputed region claimed by both the rUK and Scottish government with a Unionist pro British majority stoll
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380
The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
This happens in wars all the time
The Russians are known to do it
The worst part of the job is hosing out human remains; it is so bad it has been used as a field punishment, and it causes deep trauma
The Russians, in surprise news to no one, are getting their ‘allies’ in Belarus to do this bit, instead of traumatising their own troops
Also, these tanks contain lots of useful and expensive kit, some of which will be salvageable.
Who drove them there?
Edit. I see you explained above.
I mean, if he had barely survived and was hanging on by his fingernails, next time he might actually be toppled and Russia would lose its last ally.
PS I need to go out for popcorn.
I don't like to think of TSE just getting by with 'Taste the Difference' Pinot Grigio.
Following your rather grisly post, I have to recount to you a story told me by my late brother-in-law who worked for many years on London Underground.
He said they had a special crew for dealing with 'people under'. They were used to it and took what for most of us would be deeply disturbing work very much in their stride. Indeed they became rather blase about it, or so he said.
On one occasion they managed to recover the body of a suicide without difficulty, but not the head. By chance the wheels of the train had sliced it neatly off and sent it careering down the track. One of the men spotted it far down the tunnel and went to collect it. When he got to it he realised he was actually neared the next station than the one where the incident had happpened, so he picked the severed head up by the hair and marched on along the tunnel until he emerged at the next stop where the platform was obviously full due to the unexpected delay in the service.
Now a man emerging from a train tunnel holding a severed head would be a pretty shocking site even if you were expecting it, so it won't surprise you to know that many passengers fainted and had to be treated in situ. The worker was given a few days gardening leave.
I have no idea if this story is true but knowing my b-i-l and some of the guys he worked with I can well believe it.
I believe West German GDP was reaching new highs by 1950 in the early 1950s.
Here’s a pic of an actual ARV round the corner from me, though the gimps that rented it out thought that tieing a scaffolding pole to it turned it into a tank.
Losses (documented below) are still significant.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html
…Towed Artillery (36, of which destroyed: 4, damaged: 2 abandoned: 5, captured: 25)
Self-Propelled Artillery (40, of which destroyed: 10, abandoned: 12, captured: 17)
Multiple Rocket Launchers (30, of which destroyed: 14, abandoned: 4, captured: 12)…
Note Ukraine also captured several Russian ARVs, so they are definitely used in the front line.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fears-for-the-great-british-fish-amp-chip-shop-as-costs-batter-takeaways-2pdgq606d
It's not just energy cost rocketing. 40% of chippy fish comes from Russia, and consumers are skint.
An uncle of a friend of mine was an undertaker and he attended many railway fatalities. On one occasion the head had not been found, but the train had been allowed to move on anyway. It turned out the head was trapped behind a buffer.
"Thomas the tank engine has arrived at Platform 4" was what one wag said when it was eventually discovered at Waterloo...
Or perhaps you're convinced by chicken-shit, 180-degree rhetorical reversals, uttered for utterly political motivations?
They never go out without a tug to get them home again
The Admiral Kuznetsov, the only carrier in the Russian navy, is being accompanied by a nuclear-powered Kirov-class battlecruiser - the Pyotr Velikiy, and a salvage tug.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38745364
“any cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car"
It is hard, if not impossible, to interpret that in any other way than all of them.
This is a scenario where “any” does mean “all”
Such as “any race where the Safety Car is employed must…” can only refer to all races where the safety car is employed.
Where there is “any [x] must do [y]” it has to refer to all within category x. The “must” governs that, and was always there.
If anyone here can come up with any interpretation of the old rule other than meaning all cars that had been lapped by the leader were required to unlap, I invite them to try.
The devil's buttermilk has never passed my lips.
Zelensky is talking about life, death and survival. And moral choices. From the position of moral superiority.