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Not Again …. – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,049
edited March 2022 in General
imageNot Again …. – politicalbetting.com

From 1988 on young children treated for complex heart complaints at the Bristol Royal Infirmary had high death rates, higher than might be expected for such difficult surgery. Between 1986 – 1995 170 children who would likely have survived in other units, died; about 25 – 30 suffered permanent brain damage. An inquiry by Professor Ian Kennedy QC found a unit “simply not up to the task“, a result of poor leadership, a doctors’ “old boys‘” culture, secrecy and a lax approach to safety. What made the scandal so much worse were two things: (1) local GPs knew there was a problem but no-one spoke up; (2) the one whistleblower doctor who repeatedly raised concerns, not just with the hospital but with other authorities, was ignored (eventually moving to Australia to continue his career).

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,555
    Thank you cyclefree
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,429
    A friend in the medical line observed that the code of Omertà relating to doctors whistleblowing had one exception.

    It was A.O.K. for doctor to attack a doctor who was whistleblowing.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,742
    It is not in any way, shape or form "attacking the NHS" to expect it to employ the highest ethical standards.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,555
    'It can seem churlish and ungrateful to criticise the NHS'

    To quote Nigel Lawson

    'The NHS is the closest thing the English have to a national religion'

    All the more powerful coming from a right wing Conservative. The trouble with anything near sacred is how do you criticise it? Love the NHS all you want if that is your thing but beware any institution put on an unchallenged pedestal.
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,625
    Another top quality article here.

    The NHS is like a national religion and cannot be criticised.

    It’s about time we recognised the flaws in the NHS and tried to sort them rather than let them be swept under the carpet. Typical of many institutions in our country.
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,625

    'It can seem churlish and ungrateful to criticise the NHS'

    To quote Nigel Lawson

    'The NHS is the closest thing the English have to a national religion'

    All the more powerful coming from a right wing Conservative. The trouble with anything near sacred is how do you criticise it? Love the NHS all you want if that is your thing but beware any institution put on an unchallenged pedestal.

    It wasn’t that long ago people were standing on their doorsteps applauding this institution.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,138
    Taz said:

    'It can seem churlish and ungrateful to criticise the NHS'

    To quote Nigel Lawson

    'The NHS is the closest thing the English have to a national religion'

    All the more powerful coming from a right wing Conservative. The trouble with anything near sacred is how do you criticise it? Love the NHS all you want if that is your thing but beware any institution put on an unchallenged pedestal.

    It wasn’t that long ago people were standing on their doorsteps applauding this institution.
    We should applaud. Also criticise it. It is over 1 million people, of course it will have very good and very bad within it.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,555
    Taz said:

    'It can seem churlish and ungrateful to criticise the NHS'

    To quote Nigel Lawson

    'The NHS is the closest thing the English have to a national religion'

    All the more powerful coming from a right wing Conservative. The trouble with anything near sacred is how do you criticise it? Love the NHS all you want if that is your thing but beware any institution put on an unchallenged pedestal.

    It wasn’t that long ago people were standing on their doorsteps applauding this institution.
    I don't think they were actually. It was 'clap for carers' no? That's a subtle difference. People were on the frontline in a pandemic exposing themselves to a high level of risk. Of course it became appropriated as being about the institution itself.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clap_for_Our_Carers
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,742
    Taz said:

    'It can seem churlish and ungrateful to criticise the NHS'

    To quote Nigel Lawson

    'The NHS is the closest thing the English have to a national religion'

    All the more powerful coming from a right wing Conservative. The trouble with anything near sacred is how do you criticise it? Love the NHS all you want if that is your thing but beware any institution put on an unchallenged pedestal.

    It wasn’t that long ago people were standing on their doorsteps applauding this institution.
    And rightly so, for the extremes of dedication seen in defending the nation's health from Covid.

    It doesn't mean they get a pass when they disastrously fuck up. As they have demonstrably done here. It is not an institution so fragile that it has to protected "at all costs".

  • TazTaz Posts: 13,625

    Taz said:

    'It can seem churlish and ungrateful to criticise the NHS'

    To quote Nigel Lawson

    'The NHS is the closest thing the English have to a national religion'

    All the more powerful coming from a right wing Conservative. The trouble with anything near sacred is how do you criticise it? Love the NHS all you want if that is your thing but beware any institution put on an unchallenged pedestal.

    It wasn’t that long ago people were standing on their doorsteps applauding this institution.
    We should applaud. Also criticise it. It is over 1 million people, of course it will have very good and very bad within it.
    We applaud. We don’t criticise. The sheep like devotion to the NHS makes criticism of it deemed an outrage.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332
    Are there odds on George "Super Saturday" Russel out qualifying Hamilton? He seems consistently faster in practice.
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,625

    Taz said:

    'It can seem churlish and ungrateful to criticise the NHS'

    To quote Nigel Lawson

    'The NHS is the closest thing the English have to a national religion'

    All the more powerful coming from a right wing Conservative. The trouble with anything near sacred is how do you criticise it? Love the NHS all you want if that is your thing but beware any institution put on an unchallenged pedestal.

    It wasn’t that long ago people were standing on their doorsteps applauding this institution.
    And rightly so, for the extremes of dedication seen in defending the nation's health from Covid.

    It doesn't mean they get a pass when they disastrously fuck up. As they have demonstrably done here. It is not an institution so fragile that it has to protected "at all costs".

    Yes, many people were dedicated in supporting society from the impacts of Covid. Not just the NHS. My point is the clapping and the devotion to it, it’s status as a national religion, makes criticism of it difficult and often conflated with criticising the staff themselves. Some of whom are dedicated for,sure.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,290
    My great great g g g g (x 38) grandfather fought and won the Siege of Chartres in 911, after which he converted to fierce Catholicism, seized many lands west of the Seine, and married a five year old girl.

    My family KNOWS what war does to you. Don’t need reminding.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332
    FPT

    Leon said:
    My great great g g g g (x 38) grandfather fought and won the Siege of Chartres in 911, after which he converted to fierce Catholicism, seized many lands west of the Seine, and married a five year old girl. That’s what war does to you.

    DavidL
    And your excuse?

    (sorry, couldn't resist)
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,507

    'It can seem churlish and ungrateful to criticise the NHS'

    To quote Nigel Lawson

    'The NHS is the closest thing the English have to a national religion'

    All the more powerful coming from a right wing Conservative. The trouble with anything near sacred is how do you criticise it? Love the NHS all you want if that is your thing but beware any institution put on an unchallenged pedestal.

    As any ful kno house values is the national religion, with sects of class and status anxiety.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,138
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    'It can seem churlish and ungrateful to criticise the NHS'

    To quote Nigel Lawson

    'The NHS is the closest thing the English have to a national religion'

    All the more powerful coming from a right wing Conservative. The trouble with anything near sacred is how do you criticise it? Love the NHS all you want if that is your thing but beware any institution put on an unchallenged pedestal.

    It wasn’t that long ago people were standing on their doorsteps applauding this institution.
    We should applaud. Also criticise it. It is over 1 million people, of course it will have very good and very bad within it.
    We applaud. We don’t criticise. The sheep like devotion to the NHS makes criticism of it deemed an outrage.
    Plenty of criticism on here, rightly so. I have no problem criticising it when it gets stuff wrong. Not sure anyone is outraged by the criticism it is getting here today to be honest, certainly no-one expressing their outrage.

    So your point does not really hold, when criticism is due, it can be delivered without generating loads of outrage.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,109

    Taz said:

    'It can seem churlish and ungrateful to criticise the NHS'

    To quote Nigel Lawson

    'The NHS is the closest thing the English have to a national religion'

    All the more powerful coming from a right wing Conservative. The trouble with anything near sacred is how do you criticise it? Love the NHS all you want if that is your thing but beware any institution put on an unchallenged pedestal.

    It wasn’t that long ago people were standing on their doorsteps applauding this institution.
    We should applaud. Also criticise it. It is over 1 million people, of course it will have very good and very bad within it.
    Good and bad individuals should not be the main focus. Good or bad systems should be.
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,625

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    'It can seem churlish and ungrateful to criticise the NHS'

    To quote Nigel Lawson

    'The NHS is the closest thing the English have to a national religion'

    All the more powerful coming from a right wing Conservative. The trouble with anything near sacred is how do you criticise it? Love the NHS all you want if that is your thing but beware any institution put on an unchallenged pedestal.

    It wasn’t that long ago people were standing on their doorsteps applauding this institution.
    We should applaud. Also criticise it. It is over 1 million people, of course it will have very good and very bad within it.
    We applaud. We don’t criticise. The sheep like devotion to the NHS makes criticism of it deemed an outrage.
    Plenty of criticism on here, rightly so. I have no problem criticising it when it gets stuff wrong. Not sure anyone is outraged by the criticism it is getting here today to be honest, certainly no-one expressing their outrage.

    So your point does not really hold, when criticism is due, it can be delivered without generating loads of outrage.
    My point holds. Debate of the NHS is not just limited to here. The OP is addressing a problem ingrained within the NHS. The NHS being a national religion with criticism frowned upon makes solving these problems harder not easier.
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,625

    Taz said:

    'It can seem churlish and ungrateful to criticise the NHS'

    To quote Nigel Lawson

    'The NHS is the closest thing the English have to a national religion'

    All the more powerful coming from a right wing Conservative. The trouble with anything near sacred is how do you criticise it? Love the NHS all you want if that is your thing but beware any institution put on an unchallenged pedestal.

    It wasn’t that long ago people were standing on their doorsteps applauding this institution.
    We should applaud. Also criticise it. It is over 1 million people, of course it will have very good and very bad within it.
    Good and bad individuals should not be the main focus. Good or bad systems should be.
    Put a good person on a bad system and the system always wins
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,138

    Taz said:

    'It can seem churlish and ungrateful to criticise the NHS'

    To quote Nigel Lawson

    'The NHS is the closest thing the English have to a national religion'

    All the more powerful coming from a right wing Conservative. The trouble with anything near sacred is how do you criticise it? Love the NHS all you want if that is your thing but beware any institution put on an unchallenged pedestal.

    It wasn’t that long ago people were standing on their doorsteps applauding this institution.
    We should applaud. Also criticise it. It is over 1 million people, of course it will have very good and very bad within it.
    Good and bad individuals should not be the main focus. Good or bad systems should be.
    Sure, but no organisation with 1 million plus people is going to have faultless systems. Especially with cost constraints, an ageing population and new technologies needing to be introduced regularly.

    In that size of organisation, you will find good and bad systems as well as people.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332
    The most obvious flaw in medicine (and indeed other professions, including law) is the failure to learn from mistakes or bad outcomes. That is a lot more difficult than it sounds. It requires complete candour on those involved, a clear and crisp analysis of what has gone wrong and a willingness to learn to do better.

    It's tough and when the current blame culture is dominant it is impossible. We absolutely need to change this. My learned friends at the bar wouldn't thank me for this but one obvious help would be no fault compensation when something has gone wrong in the NHS. If you are not going to be named and shamed and blamed in a court case it is a lot easier to be candid.

    Better and faster statistical analysis, such as we had after the fact in the cases @Cyclefree describes would also help but only if those statistics are not contaminated or distorted by covering up.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,290
    The awful trans rape hospital story FPT

    It ties in with the Woke debate. People still try to deny that Woke exists, or, if it does, that it matters. Well here is proof that it exists and that yes it really matters

    Part of Wokeness is the elevation of extreme identity politics to a (deliberately?) destructive level - way beyond common sense. Critical Race Theory is one example: all white people are inherently racist and can never atone, etc

    Another is the trans debate and “intersectionality” - the *value* of your identity depends on how oppressed you are. A trans person is apparently more oppressed than almost anyone therefore they must be protected more than others, lest you commit the awful crime of transphobia

    Hence you get the grotesque situation where a woman’s legitimate rape complaint is flatly denied, as to admit it would be “transphobic”: denying the self-identified gender of the rapist by calling her “a man”

  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,442
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Six or seven cases..

    Tom Swarbrick
    @TomSwarbrick1
    Been reading the speech by @Baroness_Nichol about the hospital rape case.

    It is absolutely unbelievable.

    Write up here:
    https://twitter.com/TomSwarbrick1/status/1504761409476993025


    Emma Harriet Nicholson
    @Baroness_Nichol

    I’ve at least six or seven cases

    https://twitter.com/Baroness_Nichol/status/1504884038137491461

    Some awful takes on this from NHS professionals. Shooting the messenger.

    How these people get to work with vulnerable people is a mystery.

    https://www.reduxx.org/post/nhs-mental-health-specialist-deletes-twitter-account-after-gaslighting-rape-victim
    I honestly don't understand what it is going on in these cases. I know the Baroness was making a point about there being a man on the ward, but that seems beside the point.

    Supposedly the ward staff's sole response to the suggestion there had been a rape on the ward was that there were no men on the ward, which seems to indicate a complete lack of any cognitive function whatsoever, investigation, or any instinct to believe or listen to the victim at all.

    I don't think it's particularly helpful to think of the main point being whether the assault or rape was perpetrated by a man or woman given the imbelic nature of the (apparent) response.
    Doesn't make sense given that women (in all senses) can and do commit sexual assaults.
    Because the very precise legal definition of a 'rape' is 'penetration by a penis.'

    So the hospital were dancing on the head of a pin here: 'well, she can't have been raped, no penises to do it.' Therefore implying there was no chance of any sexual assault at all.

    And the reason of course is because as @Cyclefree notes if they admitted there had been there was a major safeguarding breach.

    The issue now is that in addition to letting their patients be raped that hospital trust has committed the crime of perverting the course of justice.

    All in all it is a brutally clear exposition of why self identification without certain very strict safeguards (I.e. call yourself what you like but no accessing female only spaces until transition is complete) is a very bad idea.
    I'm not even sure it is a correct assessment of the law, it would appear by all accounts that the perpetrator had a penis.

    The law does say "his penis" (etc.) but there is plenty of law on the statute book that refers to "he" when it means "a person".
    i think you've slightly missed the point. We're not talking about the law on what rape is or isn't. That's crystal clear. It's the hospital's response that is the issue by conflating 'identifying as a woman' with 'not having a penis.'
    My argument is purely in the alternative.

    I agree that it hospital's response that is the issue by conflating 'identifying as a woman' with 'not having a penis.'

    By I am not even sure they have the strict letter of the law to rely on. The whole response is baffling to me.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,742
    Leon said:

    The awful trans rape hospital story FPT

    It ties in with the Woke debate. People still try to deny that Woke exists, or, if it does, that it matters. Well here is proof that it exists and that yes it really matters

    Part of Wokeness is the elevation of extreme identity politics to a (deliberately?) destructive level - way beyond common sense. Critical Race Theory is one example: all white people are inherently racist and can never atone, etc

    Another is the trans debate and “intersectionality” - the *value* of your identity depends on how oppressed you are. A trans person is apparently more oppressed than almost anyone therefore they must be protected more than others, lest you commit the awful crime of transphobia

    Hence you get the grotesque situation where a woman’s legitimate rape complaint is flatly denied, as to admit it would be “transphobic”: denying the self-identified gender of the rapist by calling her “a man”

    Perhaps the criminal law needs a different standard. We already have beyond reasonable doubt v balance of probabilities in civil law. Perhaps there needs to be a different standard that a "woman" has to pass the test of their gender being beyond reasonable doubt before being accepted - and not "because I say I am a woman".
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,507
    Wafw.
    It was only a matter of time I guess.




  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,290

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Six or seven cases..

    Tom Swarbrick
    @TomSwarbrick1
    Been reading the speech by @Baroness_Nichol about the hospital rape case.

    It is absolutely unbelievable.

    Write up here:
    https://twitter.com/TomSwarbrick1/status/1504761409476993025


    Emma Harriet Nicholson
    @Baroness_Nichol

    I’ve at least six or seven cases

    https://twitter.com/Baroness_Nichol/status/1504884038137491461

    Some awful takes on this from NHS professionals. Shooting the messenger.

    How these people get to work with vulnerable people is a mystery.

    https://www.reduxx.org/post/nhs-mental-health-specialist-deletes-twitter-account-after-gaslighting-rape-victim
    I honestly don't understand what it is going on in these cases. I know the Baroness was making a point about there being a man on the ward, but that seems beside the point.

    Supposedly the ward staff's sole response to the suggestion there had been a rape on the ward was that there were no men on the ward, which seems to indicate a complete lack of any cognitive function whatsoever, investigation, or any instinct to believe or listen to the victim at all.

    I don't think it's particularly helpful to think of the main point being whether the assault or rape was perpetrated by a man or woman given the imbelic nature of the (apparent) response.
    Doesn't make sense given that women (in all senses) can and do commit sexual assaults.
    Because the very precise legal definition of a 'rape' is 'penetration by a penis.'

    So the hospital were dancing on the head of a pin here: 'well, she can't have been raped, no penises to do it.' Therefore implying there was no chance of any sexual assault at all.

    And the reason of course is because as @Cyclefree notes if they admitted there had been there was a major safeguarding breach.

    The issue now is that in addition to letting their patients be raped that hospital trust has committed the crime of perverting the course of justice.

    All in all it is a brutally clear exposition of why self identification without certain very strict safeguards (I.e. call yourself what you like but no accessing female only spaces until transition is complete) is a very bad idea.
    I'm not even sure it is a correct assessment of the law, it would appear by all accounts that the perpetrator had a penis.

    The law does say "his penis" (etc.) but there is plenty of law on the statute book that refers to "he" when it means "a person".
    i think you've slightly missed the point. We're not talking about the law on what rape is or isn't. That's crystal clear. It's the hospital's response that is the issue by conflating 'identifying as a woman' with 'not having a penis.'
    My argument is purely in the alternative.

    I agree that it hospital's response that is the issue by conflating 'identifying as a woman' with 'not having a penis.'

    By I am not even sure they have the strict letter of the law to rely on. The whole response is baffling to me.
    It’s not baffling when you understand how Wokeness pervades many institutions. I’m guessing the NHS now has strict rules against “transphobia”. Perhaps it is a sacking offence?


    Saying that this self identifying woman is, in fact, a man with a penis would be transphobia. You’re denying her lived experience. That might get you sacked

    So when the police come knocking and say Was there a rape on this ward, you have to say No as only men can commit rape and there were indeed no men on the ward. Ergo rape cannot have occurred
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,052
    edited March 2022

    'It can seem churlish and ungrateful to criticise the NHS'

    To quote Nigel Lawson

    'The NHS is the closest thing the English have to a national religion'

    All the more powerful coming from a right wing Conservative. The trouble with anything near sacred is how do you criticise it? Love the NHS all you want if that is your thing but beware any institution put on an unchallenged pedestal.

    The NHS is the 5th biggest employer of any organisation in the world after the US Defense Department, the Chinese army, Walmart and McDonalds.

    Inevitably in an organisation of that size some things will go wrong. Although hopefully lessons will be learned from the Inquiries
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,051

    Wafw.
    It was only a matter of time I guess.




    So almost half of Ukrainians support Russia?
    Doesn’t look much like that to me.

  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,769
    I used to work (fairly briefly) for the NHS, and have various medical relatives. Generally, I find the more people know about it, and the more they know about foreign (non-American) healthcare systems, the less likely they are to fetishise it and the people who work for it. I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    Leon said:

    The awful trans rape hospital story FPT

    It ties in with the Woke debate. People still try to deny that Woke exists, or, if it does, that it matters. Well here is proof that it exists and that yes it really matters

    Part of Wokeness is the elevation of extreme identity politics to a (deliberately?) destructive level - way beyond common sense. Critical Race Theory is one example: all white people are inherently racist and can never atone, etc

    Another is the trans debate and “intersectionality” - the *value* of your identity depends on how oppressed you are. A trans person is apparently more oppressed than almost anyone therefore they must be protected more than others, lest you commit the awful crime of transphobia

    Hence you get the grotesque situation where a woman’s legitimate rape complaint is flatly denied, as to admit it would be “transphobic”: denying the self-identified gender of the rapist by calling her “a man”

    Perhaps the criminal law needs a different standard. We already have beyond reasonable doubt v balance of probabilities in civil law. Perhaps there needs to be a different standard that a "woman" has to pass the test of their gender being beyond reasonable doubt before being accepted - and not "because I say I am a woman".
    We can also differentiate between sex and gender, which for some reason is verboten these days.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,051
    HYUFD said:

    'It can seem churlish and ungrateful to criticise the NHS'

    To quote Nigel Lawson

    'The NHS is the closest thing the English have to a national religion'

    All the more powerful coming from a right wing Conservative. The trouble with anything near sacred is how do you criticise it? Love the NHS all you want if that is your thing but beware any institution put on an unchallenged pedestal.

    The NHS is the biggest employer of any organisation in the world after the Indian railways.

    Inevitably in an organisation of that size some things will go wrong. Although hopefully lessons will be learned from the Inquiries
    The point which both Mr Malmesbury on the previous thread and Ms Cyclfree on this are making is that lessons are NOT being learned.
    Too much of the Old Boys and Old Girls networks.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,341
    I see from a Times story that Cornwall has offered more homes to Ukrainians than any other Council in the UK.

    First instinct is hats off to Cornwall. Second is, knowing how hard it is for the Cornish to buy or rent accommodation because of all the second homes and AirBnBs, that that is what it really reflects - Cornwall has more 2nd homes than any other Council ...
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,852
    Leon said:

    My great great g g g g (x 38) grandfather fought and won the Siege of Chartres in 911, after which he converted to fierce Catholicism, seized many lands west of the Seine, and married a five year old girl.

    My family KNOWS what war does to you. Don’t need reminding.

    I think you meant to post that on your @Charles account
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,109
    Talking of bad systems, I gather the green homes voucher scheme is being wound up six weeks or so before its replacement is in place. Quite what consumers or suppliers are expected to do in the meantime is unclear.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,555
    https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1505155921969881103?s=20&t=vL62zyppsREM8b08skrUHw

    Lukashenko has apparently told an interviewer:

    "Putin is more alive than anyone else", "will survive us all", "in top shape", "never been more in his right mind", "will only catch a cold at our funerals"..
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    DavidL said:

    Wafw.
    It was only a matter of time I guess.




    So almost half of Ukrainians support Russia?
    Doesn’t look much like that to me.

    It's just an appalling comparator, totally disrespectful of the horrific sacrifice that Ukrainians are making for their freedom. Shame on him.
    Thanet = Mariupol. Same.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,159

    Wafw.
    It was only a matter of time I guess.




    We might need to see the full context. Contrasting how we can just pop down the polling station and change our nation's direction, the Ukrainians try that and have to face a Russian invasion.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332
    ping said:
    Seems a slightly drastic response to a firewall. Or did you mean the actual article?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,379
    ping said:
    Because the FT is paywalled?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,507

    Wafw.
    It was only a matter of time I guess.




    We might need to see the full context. Contrasting how we can just pop down the polling station and change our nation's direction, the Ukrainians try that and have to face a Russian invasion.
    The full context appears to include the war on woke.



    https://twitter.com/BenQuinn75/status/1505160554608009216?s=20&t=M28TyD-odS8S7blvAKJvZQ
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    DavidL said:

    ping said:
    Seems a slightly drastic response to a firewall. Or did you mean the actual article?
    Jump the paywall;

    https://www.google.com/search?q=https://amp.ft.com/content/43102ee8-bee0-4803-bc51-4a313f04d550
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 5,907

    Wafw.
    It was only a matter of time I guess.




    Pathetic comments by the clown trying to equate a country being bombed into submission and people voting for Brexit .
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,290
    I reckon I’m right. The NHS has been captured by the extreme trans militants. Explains this sad hospital story


    “It cannot be understated that Kate Grimes seems like a genuinely okay person. Her opening statement in the piece are that of someone who has stood by the wider queer community for decades. Though sadly, that person quickly disappears behind the fog of transphobic conspiracy theory, even going so far as to include claims that the NHS “has been well and truly captured by what some now describe as an extremist trans lobby group.””

    https://www.hsj.co.uk/policy-and-regulation/kate-grimes-was-wrong-to-claim-the-nhs-should-not-work-with-stonewall/7030296.article

    Stonewall are deeply sinister. If they are running the NHS’s “LGBTQIK++ Diversity Policy” that explains all

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/05/stonewall-trans-debate-toxic-gender-identity
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,517
    DavidL said:

    Wafw.
    It was only a matter of time I guess.




    So almost half of Ukrainians support Russia?
    Doesn’t look much like that to me.

    It's just an appalling comparator, totally disrespectful of the horrific sacrifice that Ukrainians are making for their freedom. Shame on him.
    Said the same earlier but no where near as eloquently as you David. It makes me so angry if true. Similar to posts from another individual on here recently. Appalling, just appalling. So disrespectful and a complete lack of awareness.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,611

    https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1505155921969881103?s=20&t=vL62zyppsREM8b08skrUHw

    Lukashenko has apparently told an interviewer:

    "Putin is more alive than anyone else", "will survive us all", "in top shape", "never been more in his right mind", "will only catch a cold at our funerals"..

    In other words he's not long for this world
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,138
    ping said:

    DavidL said:

    ping said:
    Seems a slightly drastic response to a firewall. Or did you mean the actual article?
    Jump the paywall;

    https://www.google.com/search?q=https://amp.ft.com/content/43102ee8-bee0-4803-bc51-4a313f04d550
    To get around the paywall type in the headline into a search engine.

    The dark side of using AI to design drugs
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,379
    edited March 2022
    ping said:

    DavidL said:

    ping said:
    Seems a slightly drastic response to a firewall. Or did you mean the actual article?
    Jump the paywall;

    https://www.google.com/search?q=https://amp.ft.com/content/43102ee8-bee0-4803-bc51-4a313f04d550
    Thanks. From your earlier post it wasn't clear which article you were suggesting.

    Edit: Nor does that link work. Go on give us a clue, just post the headline, we can get it via google from there.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,290

    Wafw.
    It was only a matter of time I guess.




    We might need to see the full context. Contrasting how we can just pop down the polling station and change our nation's direction, the Ukrainians try that and have to face a Russian invasion.
    The full context appears to include the war on woke.



    https://twitter.com/BenQuinn75/status/1505160554608009216?s=20&t=M28TyD-odS8S7blvAKJvZQ
    On the other hand it does tell you what the Tory election campaign will largely consist of
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,379
    Leon said:

    I reckon I’m right. The NHS has been captured by the extreme trans militants. Explains this sad hospital story


    “It cannot be understated that Kate Grimes seems like a genuinely okay person. Her opening statement in the piece are that of someone who has stood by the wider queer community for decades. Though sadly, that person quickly disappears behind the fog of transphobic conspiracy theory, even going so far as to include claims that the NHS “has been well and truly captured by what some now describe as an extremist trans lobby group.””

    https://www.hsj.co.uk/policy-and-regulation/kate-grimes-was-wrong-to-claim-the-nhs-should-not-work-with-stonewall/7030296.article

    Stonewall are deeply sinister. If they are running the NHS’s “LGBTQIK++ Diversity Policy” that explains all

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/05/stonewall-trans-debate-toxic-gender-identity

    As in most things, you reckon wrong.
  • Boris Johnson: Ukraine is like Brexit.

    He is clearly out of ideas. People don’t care about Brexit anymore.
  • If you can get outside today it’s lovely out there. Just got a run in.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,341
    ping said:

    DavidL said:

    ping said:
    Seems a slightly drastic response to a firewall. Or did you mean the actual article?
    Jump the paywall;

    https://www.google.com/search?q=https://amp.ft.com/content/43102ee8-bee0-4803-bc51-4a313f04d550
    Have only read the headline, as the link does not work for me.

    Not sure why the scientists were surprised. You set AI on the task of looking for biologically active chemicals and then are appalled to find that the vast majority of biologically active chemicals are harmful??? That is just a basic fact of life.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805

    ping said:

    DavidL said:

    ping said:
    Seems a slightly drastic response to a firewall. Or did you mean the actual article?
    Jump the paywall;

    https://www.google.com/search?q=https://amp.ft.com/content/43102ee8-bee0-4803-bc51-4a313f04d550
    Thanks. From your earlier post it wasn't clear which article you were suggesting.

    Edit: Nor does that link work. Go on give us a clue, just post the headline, we can get it via google from there.
    “Artificial intelligence

    The dark side of using AI to design drugs
    Scientists were horrified when an experiment produced thousands of new chemical killers in a few hours”
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,051
    Leon said:

    Wafw.
    It was only a matter of time I guess.




    We might need to see the full context. Contrasting how we can just pop down the polling station and change our nation's direction, the Ukrainians try that and have to face a Russian invasion.
    The full context appears to include the war on woke.



    https://twitter.com/BenQuinn75/status/1505160554608009216?s=20&t=M28TyD-odS8S7blvAKJvZQ
    On the other hand it does tell you what the Tory election campaign will largely consist of
    Which will be picked up by our Right-wing press and the (currently) scaredy-cat BBC.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,555

    https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1505155921969881103?s=20&t=vL62zyppsREM8b08skrUHw

    Lukashenko has apparently told an interviewer:

    "Putin is more alive than anyone else", "will survive us all", "in top shape", "never been more in his right mind", "will only catch a cold at our funerals"..

    In other words he's not long for this world
    As someone has pointed out the more alive than anyone else quote was made about Lenin in........1960.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,290

    Leon said:

    I reckon I’m right. The NHS has been captured by the extreme trans militants. Explains this sad hospital story


    “It cannot be understated that Kate Grimes seems like a genuinely okay person. Her opening statement in the piece are that of someone who has stood by the wider queer community for decades. Though sadly, that person quickly disappears behind the fog of transphobic conspiracy theory, even going so far as to include claims that the NHS “has been well and truly captured by what some now describe as an extremist trans lobby group.””

    https://www.hsj.co.uk/policy-and-regulation/kate-grimes-was-wrong-to-claim-the-nhs-should-not-work-with-stonewall/7030296.article

    Stonewall are deeply sinister. If they are running the NHS’s “LGBTQIK++ Diversity Policy” that explains all

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/05/stonewall-trans-debate-toxic-gender-identity

    As in most things, you reckon wrong.
    This former NHS trust chief executive agrees with me. Do you know more than her?

    ‘Working with Stonewall is no longer compatible with NHS values’


    https://www.hsj.co.uk/workforce/working-with-stonewall-is-no-longer-compatible-with-nhs-values/7030259.article
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,742

    https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1505155921969881103?s=20&t=vL62zyppsREM8b08skrUHw

    Lukashenko has apparently told an interviewer:

    "Putin is more alive than anyone else", "will survive us all", "in top shape", "never been more in his right mind", "will only catch a cold at our funerals"..

    If Putin really is ill, that means Lukashenko is already on borrowed time.....
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,533
    My comment on the previous thread was a maternity-related care issue. As I said, minor by comparison with these. But indicative of systemic issues and a tendency to cover up first, and ask no difficult questions.

    Easy to see how this comes about. Thanks @cyclefree for a great header as always.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,742
    DavidL said:

    Wafw.
    It was only a matter of time I guess.




    So almost half of Ukrainians support Russia?
    Doesn’t look much like that to me.

    It's just an appalling comparator, totally disrespectful of the horrific sacrifice that Ukrainians are making for their freedom. Shame on him.
    I sincerely hope more than 52% are for Ukraine's freedom from Russian tyranny....
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,533
    Taz said:

    'It can seem churlish and ungrateful to criticise the NHS'

    To quote Nigel Lawson

    'The NHS is the closest thing the English have to a national religion'

    All the more powerful coming from a right wing Conservative. The trouble with anything near sacred is how do you criticise it? Love the NHS all you want if that is your thing but beware any institution put on an unchallenged pedestal.

    It wasn’t that long ago people were standing on their doorsteps applauding this institution.
    It is possible to do both. Credit where credit is due. Criticism where critique is needed. That should be the culture. And only in extremis is blame needed.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,742
    Anyway, back to the glories of the garden whilst listening to 5Live.

    Oh, to be in England.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,052
    edited March 2022

    Boris Johnson: Ukraine is like Brexit.

    He is clearly out of ideas. People don’t care about Brexit anymore.

    Yet 53% of Remainers are still voting Labour to just 15% voting Conservative.

    While 59% of Leavers are still voting Conservative to just 19% voting Labour

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/10/voting-intention-con-33-lab-39-8-9-mar
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987
    It seems that a major problem this country has is unwillingness to genuinely look into problems in major service areas - for fear we will indeed find them - and an unwillingness to take serious action in response - for fear this will upset that service area. Big on words, big on promises of money, but less on holding organisations' feet to the fire and enacting change, forgetting each time they will revert to type out of truculence or just institutional malaise. And none of our polical leaders demonstrate the will to change that, not when it will always be easier to score political points instead.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987

    If you can get outside today it’s lovely out there. Just got a run in.

    Bloody warm though. Yes I am unpleasable.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,379
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I reckon I’m right. The NHS has been captured by the extreme trans militants. Explains this sad hospital story


    “It cannot be understated that Kate Grimes seems like a genuinely okay person. Her opening statement in the piece are that of someone who has stood by the wider queer community for decades. Though sadly, that person quickly disappears behind the fog of transphobic conspiracy theory, even going so far as to include claims that the NHS “has been well and truly captured by what some now describe as an extremist trans lobby group.””

    https://www.hsj.co.uk/policy-and-regulation/kate-grimes-was-wrong-to-claim-the-nhs-should-not-work-with-stonewall/7030296.article

    Stonewall are deeply sinister. If they are running the NHS’s “LGBTQIK++ Diversity Policy” that explains all

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/05/stonewall-trans-debate-toxic-gender-identity

    As in most things, you reckon wrong.
    This former NHS trust chief executive agrees with me. Do you know more than her?

    ‘Working with Stonewall is no longer compatible with NHS values’


    https://www.hsj.co.uk/workforce/working-with-stonewall-is-no-longer-compatible-with-nhs-values/7030259.article
    Did she say "The NHS has been captured by the extreme trans militants"?

    No, I thought not. You reckon wrong. As usual.

    Really your stupid obsession with "woke" diminishes you. You might want to think about seeking help.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987

    Boris Johnson: Ukraine is like Brexit.

    He is clearly out of ideas. People don’t care about Brexit anymore.

    They do, but drawing on the well of 'X is like/necessary for Brexit' is a lazy tactic which will be less effective as times go on.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,159

    If you can get outside today it’s lovely out there. Just got a run in.

    Cold bright sunshine here in Gjirokastër. Actually it was warm enough to have breakfast on the terrace. Has been colder than I hoped (and expected) but not a sign of rain in over a week. Declined to go for a run as it's on a mountainside
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,517
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The awful trans rape hospital story FPT

    It ties in with the Woke debate. People still try to deny that Woke exists, or, if it does, that it matters. Well here is proof that it exists and that yes it really matters

    Part of Wokeness is the elevation of extreme identity politics to a (deliberately?) destructive level - way beyond common sense. Critical Race Theory is one example: all white people are inherently racist and can never atone, etc

    Another is the trans debate and “intersectionality” - the *value* of your identity depends on how oppressed you are. A trans person is apparently more oppressed than almost anyone therefore they must be protected more than others, lest you commit the awful crime of transphobia

    Hence you get the grotesque situation where a woman’s legitimate rape complaint is flatly denied, as to admit it would be “transphobic”: denying the self-identified gender of the rapist by calling her “a man”

    Perhaps the criminal law needs a different standard. We already have beyond reasonable doubt v balance of probabilities in civil law. Perhaps there needs to be a different standard that a "woman" has to pass the test of their gender being beyond reasonable doubt before being accepted - and not "because I say I am a woman".
    The slight reservation I have about this is that it reminds me of the gays in the armed forces debate. The hypothesis of that was that gays might get excited by their male colleagues being naked etc and be a threat to them because they are that way inclined. It was, of course, complete nonsense. There was no more risk of a gay person being predatory than a hetrosexual person being so. We moved past that with little difficulty.

    I have no doubt that trans people are exactly the same. The vast majority of them will, like heterosexuals or gays, be completely harmless and a threat to no one. But a loophole has been created and exploited by what are in fact heterosexual predators to get into what are meant to be protected spaces.

    How do we deal with this loophole? One way, as I mentioned on the previous thread, is to gender neutralise the crime as we have in Scotland. The other is to set the goalposts for these protected areas slightly higher. So, in the general community you can self identify as whatever you like but if you want to get into those protected spaces you need to be sufficiently far along in the treatment that you are no longer biologically functional as a male.

    Quite why this practical issue has caused so much hysteria simply baffles me.
    Excellent post.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987

    Wafw.
    It was only a matter of time I guess.




    We might need to see the full context. Contrasting how we can just pop down the polling station and change our nation's direction, the Ukrainians try that and have to face a Russian invasion.
    The full context appears to include the war on woke.



    https://twitter.com/BenQuinn75/status/1505160554608009216?s=20&t=M28TyD-odS8S7blvAKJvZQ
    I really think Tory strategists try too hard on the war on woke stuff. It comes across as distraction, when all they would need to do is highlight some of the more extreme and ridiculous instances of people quibbling about pronouns or cancelling things etc, and I think the general public can and does apply common sense on the ridiculous element. The Tories don't need to fan that fire, and the extent they do can undermine it by turning what for many public might be just a common sense issue, into a political one which will push people to take a partisan side instead.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,379
    kle4 said:

    Boris Johnson: Ukraine is like Brexit.

    He is clearly out of ideas. People don’t care about Brexit anymore.

    They do, but drawing on the well of 'X is like/necessary for Brexit' is a lazy tactic which will be less effective as times go on.
    Especially when X is a nation literally fighting street-by-street for it's very survival.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,555
    The alleged leaker from the FSB has been busy with another essay. I'm in two minds as to whether it is genuine or fake. The west/Ukraine have been very good at the information war so far - at least within our own borders.

    https://rentry.co/f96nz

    This section near the end was great:

    The Western world has so taken over the image of such a Ukraine that no serious politician can speak out with an attempt to put pressure on Ukraine anymore (this was not the case until recently). And even in attempts of unspoken negotiations with Zelensky they will be afraid to press: Zelensky's public statement about such a call to surrender will undercut any Western politician's rating. As a result, many years of quite successful work with the Russia-loyal political stratum of Western countries is ruined by an asymmetrical blow. Add to this the banning of broadcasting from a purely Russian point of view - that's it, there is nothing to answer for now.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,517
    edited March 2022
    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson: Ukraine is like Brexit.

    He is clearly out of ideas. People don’t care about Brexit anymore.

    Yet 53% of Remainers are still voting Labour to just 15% voting Conservative.

    While 59% of Leavers are still voting Conservative to just 19% voting Labour

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/10/voting-intention-con-33-lab-39-8-9-mar
    That might well be true, but what an appalling insult to the Ukrainians to make such a comparison.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    [Translated] Germany:

    Apparently, Ukraine has received only a fraction of the promised Strela anti-aircraft missiles . WELT AM SONNTAG learned this from Ukrainian government circles. Only 500 pieces were delivered to Ukraine.

    However, the federal government had pledged 2,700 such missiles at the beginning of March. The handover only took place in Poland on Thursday evening. According to Ukrainian government circles, no further Strela deliveries are planned.


    https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article237631477/Berlin-liefert-nur-Bruchteil-der-versprochenen-Strela-Raketen-an-Ukraine.html
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,341
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson: Ukraine is like Brexit.

    He is clearly out of ideas. People don’t care about Brexit anymore.

    Yet 53% of Remainers are still voting Labour to just 15% voting Conservative.

    While 59% of Leavers are still voting Conservative to just 19% voting Labour

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/10/voting-intention-con-33-lab-39-8-9-mar
    That might well be true, but what an appalling insult to the Ukrainians to make such a comparison.
    I've decided to be kinder to HYUFD. This, and other posts of his, have convinced me he is somewhere on the spectrum and does not comprehend empathy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,290

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I reckon I’m right. The NHS has been captured by the extreme trans militants. Explains this sad hospital story


    “It cannot be understated that Kate Grimes seems like a genuinely okay person. Her opening statement in the piece are that of someone who has stood by the wider queer community for decades. Though sadly, that person quickly disappears behind the fog of transphobic conspiracy theory, even going so far as to include claims that the NHS “has been well and truly captured by what some now describe as an extremist trans lobby group.””

    https://www.hsj.co.uk/policy-and-regulation/kate-grimes-was-wrong-to-claim-the-nhs-should-not-work-with-stonewall/7030296.article

    Stonewall are deeply sinister. If they are running the NHS’s “LGBTQIK++ Diversity Policy” that explains all

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/05/stonewall-trans-debate-toxic-gender-identity

    As in most things, you reckon wrong.
    This former NHS trust chief executive agrees with me. Do you know more than her?

    ‘Working with Stonewall is no longer compatible with NHS values’


    https://www.hsj.co.uk/workforce/working-with-stonewall-is-no-longer-compatible-with-nhs-values/7030259.article
    Did she say "The NHS has been captured by the extreme trans militants"?

    No, I thought not. You reckon wrong. As usual.

    Really your stupid obsession with "woke" diminishes you. You might want to think about seeking help.
    I know you’re not the sharpest thorn in the crown of our Lord but you should be able to Google a phrase. She said it

    “The HSJ, which describes itself as the “leading resource for healthcare leaders, published an opinion piece written by former NHS trust chief executive Kate Grimes which claimed that the health service “has been well and truly captured by what some now describe as an extremist trans lobby group”.”

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/senior-nhs-leaders-demand-apology-162019669.html


    You’re right in one way tho. Why am I wasting a beautiful spring day arguing with literal idiots like you. That’s idiotic of me. Enough
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,080
    kle4 said:

    It seems that a major problem this country has is unwillingness to genuinely look into problems in major service areas - for fear we will indeed find them - and an unwillingness to take serious action in response - for fear this will upset that service area. Big on words, big on promises of money, but less on holding organisations' feet to the fire and enacting change, forgetting each time they will revert to type out of truculence or just institutional malaise. And none of our polical leaders demonstrate the will to change that, not when it will always be easier to score political points instead.

    One of the over simplifications of public political debate is that, because of vested interests and intellectual laziness it suits most sides to say that the answer to all problems is more (state) expenditure.

    Plainly this is false, but it is much harder, and duller, to implement policies that effect actual change for the better.

    And at this particular moment when we are maxed out on tax, spend, rigged interest rates, inflation, debt, borrowing and deficit, and increased demand for every state expenditure (defence is this week's good cause) the cupboard is bare.

    We are spending (I think) £210bn pa on health care, which is a fair bit. No-one who wants more spent will tell you how much more will put it right. That's because it won't, and because their demands are without end.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,051
    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson: Ukraine is like Brexit.

    He is clearly out of ideas. People don’t care about Brexit anymore.

    Yet 53% of Remainers are still voting Labour to just 15% voting Conservative.

    While 59% of Leavers are still voting Conservative to just 19% voting Labour

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/10/voting-intention-con-33-lab-39-8-9-mar
    How do those current intentions compare with their votes in 2017 or even 2015?
    Thus I’m a (proud) Rejoiner and voted Labour last time. As indeed I have most of my adult life.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,596
    edited March 2022
    DavidL said:

    FPT

    Leon said:
    My great great g g g g (x 38) grandfather fought and won the Siege of Chartres in 911, after which he converted to fierce Catholicism, seized many lands west of the Seine, and married a five year old girl. That’s what war does to you.

    DavidL
    And your excuse?

    (sorry, couldn't resist)

    It is remarkable that the depravity gene can pass through so many generations apparently undiluted. And despite being spread over so many PB accounts.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,456
    kle4 said:

    Wafw.
    It was only a matter of time I guess.




    We might need to see the full context. Contrasting how we can just pop down the polling station and change our nation's direction, the Ukrainians try that and have to face a Russian invasion.
    The full context appears to include the war on woke.



    https://twitter.com/BenQuinn75/status/1505160554608009216?s=20&t=M28TyD-odS8S7blvAKJvZQ
    I really think Tory strategists try too hard on the war on woke stuff. It comes across as distraction, when all they would need to do is highlight some of the more extreme and ridiculous instances of people quibbling about pronouns or cancelling things etc, and I think the general public can and does apply common sense on the ridiculous element. The Tories don't need to fan that fire, and the extent they do can undermine it by turning what for many public might be just a common sense issue, into a political one which will push people to take a partisan side instead.
    Statue bothering, here we come! Hurrah!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The awful trans rape hospital story FPT

    It ties in with the Woke debate. People still try to deny that Woke exists, or, if it does, that it matters. Well here is proof that it exists and that yes it really matters

    Part of Wokeness is the elevation of extreme identity politics to a (deliberately?) destructive level - way beyond common sense. Critical Race Theory is one example: all white people are inherently racist and can never atone, etc

    Another is the trans debate and “intersectionality” - the *value* of your identity depends on how oppressed you are. A trans person is apparently more oppressed than almost anyone therefore they must be protected more than others, lest you commit the awful crime of transphobia

    Hence you get the grotesque situation where a woman’s legitimate rape complaint is flatly denied, as to admit it would be “transphobic”: denying the self-identified gender of the rapist by calling her “a man”

    Perhaps the criminal law needs a different standard. We already have beyond reasonable doubt v balance of probabilities in civil law. Perhaps there needs to be a different standard that a "woman" has to pass the test of their gender being beyond reasonable doubt before being accepted - and not "because I say I am a woman".
    The slight reservation I have about this is that it reminds me of the gays in the armed forces debate. The hypothesis of that was that gays might get excited by their male colleagues being naked etc and be a threat to them because they are that way inclined. It was, of course, complete nonsense. There was no more risk of a gay person being predatory than a hetrosexual person being so. We moved past that with little difficulty.

    I have no doubt that trans people are exactly the same. The vast majority of them will, like heterosexuals or gays, be completely harmless and a threat to no one. But a loophole has been created and exploited by what are in fact heterosexual predators to get into what are meant to be protected spaces.

    How do we deal with this loophole? One way, as I mentioned on the previous thread, is to gender neutralise the crime as we have in Scotland. The other is to set the goalposts for these protected areas slightly higher. So, in the general community you can self identify as whatever you like but if you want to get into those protected spaces you need to be sufficiently far along in the treatment that you are no longer biologically functional as a male.

    Quite why this practical issue has caused so much hysteria simply baffles me.
    Because the debate is treated as completely binary, so even reasonable adjustments are lumped in with the most unreasonably opposed.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The awful trans rape hospital story FPT

    It ties in with the Woke debate. People still try to deny that Woke exists, or, if it does, that it matters. Well here is proof that it exists and that yes it really matters

    Part of Wokeness is the elevation of extreme identity politics to a (deliberately?) destructive level - way beyond common sense. Critical Race Theory is one example: all white people are inherently racist and can never atone, etc

    Another is the trans debate and “intersectionality” - the *value* of your identity depends on how oppressed you are. A trans person is apparently more oppressed than almost anyone therefore they must be protected more than others, lest you commit the awful crime of transphobia

    Hence you get the grotesque situation where a woman’s legitimate rape complaint is flatly denied, as to admit it would be “transphobic”: denying the self-identified gender of the rapist by calling her “a man”

    Perhaps the criminal law needs a different standard. We already have beyond reasonable doubt v balance of probabilities in civil law. Perhaps there needs to be a different standard that a "woman" has to pass the test of their gender being beyond reasonable doubt before being accepted - and not "because I say I am a woman".
    The slight reservation I have about this is that it reminds me of the gays in the armed forces debate. The hypothesis of that was that gays might get excited by their male colleagues being naked etc and be a threat to them because they are that way inclined. It was, of course, complete nonsense. There was no more risk of a gay person being predatory than a hetrosexual person being so. We moved past that with little difficulty.

    I have no doubt that trans people are exactly the same. The vast majority of them will, like heterosexuals or gays, be completely harmless and a threat to no one. But a loophole has been created and exploited by what are in fact heterosexual predators to get into what are meant to be protected spaces.

    How do we deal with this loophole? One way, as I mentioned on the previous thread, is to gender neutralise the crime as we have in Scotland. The other is to set the goalposts for these protected areas slightly higher. So, in the general community you can self identify as whatever you like but if you want to get into those protected spaces you need to be sufficiently far along in the treatment that you are no longer biologically functional as a male.

    Quite why this practical issue has caused so much hysteria simply baffles me.
    Because the debate is treated as completely binary.
    Which is ironic given the subject…..

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,596

    Wafw.
    It was only a matter of time I guess.




    He is such a twat.

    He never stopped to think how keen the Ukrainians are to join the EU.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,555

    [Translated] Germany:

    Apparently, Ukraine has received only a fraction of the promised Strela anti-aircraft missiles . WELT AM SONNTAG learned this from Ukrainian government circles. Only 500 pieces were delivered to Ukraine.

    However, the federal government had pledged 2,700 such missiles at the beginning of March. The handover only took place in Poland on Thursday evening. According to Ukrainian government circles, no further Strela deliveries are planned.


    https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article237631477/Berlin-liefert-nur-Bruchteil-der-versprochenen-Strela-Raketen-an-Ukraine.html

    I wonder if Germany, like Russia, is having a sudden realisation about the position of its military.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The awful trans rape hospital story FPT

    It ties in with the Woke debate. People still try to deny that Woke exists, or, if it does, that it matters. Well here is proof that it exists and that yes it really matters

    Part of Wokeness is the elevation of extreme identity politics to a (deliberately?) destructive level - way beyond common sense. Critical Race Theory is one example: all white people are inherently racist and can never atone, etc

    Another is the trans debate and “intersectionality” - the *value* of your identity depends on how oppressed you are. A trans person is apparently more oppressed than almost anyone therefore they must be protected more than others, lest you commit the awful crime of transphobia

    Hence you get the grotesque situation where a woman’s legitimate rape complaint is flatly denied, as to admit it would be “transphobic”: denying the self-identified gender of the rapist by calling her “a man”

    Perhaps the criminal law needs a different standard. We already have beyond reasonable doubt v balance of probabilities in civil law. Perhaps there needs to be a different standard that a "woman" has to pass the test of their gender being beyond reasonable doubt before being accepted - and not "because I say I am a woman".
    The slight reservation I have about this is that it reminds me of the gays in the armed forces debate. The hypothesis of that was that gays might get excited by their male colleagues being naked etc and be a threat to them because they are that way inclined. It was, of course, complete nonsense. There was no more risk of a gay person being predatory than a hetrosexual person being so. We moved past that with little difficulty.

    I have no doubt that trans people are exactly the same. The vast majority of them will, like heterosexuals or gays, be completely harmless and a threat to no one. But a loophole has been created and exploited by what are in fact heterosexual predators to get into what are meant to be protected spaces.

    How do we deal with this loophole? One way, as I mentioned on the previous thread, is to gender neutralise the crime as we have in Scotland. The other is to set the goalposts for these protected areas slightly higher. So, in the general community you can self identify as whatever you like but if you want to get into those protected spaces you need to be sufficiently far along in the treatment that you are no longer biologically functional as a male.

    Quite why this practical issue has caused so much hysteria simply baffles me.
    This is so obviously the right answer that only hard-core ideologues could disagree.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,508
    Tl;dr the NHS is useless far more often than the people banging saucepans or its employees care to admit.

    Given the number of people it treats then even a small percentage of failures means many, many are adversely affected.

    Likely most people in it know all this but probably feel overwhelmed at the thought of trying to change anything.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987
    Aslan said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The awful trans rape hospital story FPT

    It ties in with the Woke debate. People still try to deny that Woke exists, or, if it does, that it matters. Well here is proof that it exists and that yes it really matters

    Part of Wokeness is the elevation of extreme identity politics to a (deliberately?) destructive level - way beyond common sense. Critical Race Theory is one example: all white people are inherently racist and can never atone, etc

    Another is the trans debate and “intersectionality” - the *value* of your identity depends on how oppressed you are. A trans person is apparently more oppressed than almost anyone therefore they must be protected more than others, lest you commit the awful crime of transphobia

    Hence you get the grotesque situation where a woman’s legitimate rape complaint is flatly denied, as to admit it would be “transphobic”: denying the self-identified gender of the rapist by calling her “a man”

    Perhaps the criminal law needs a different standard. We already have beyond reasonable doubt v balance of probabilities in civil law. Perhaps there needs to be a different standard that a "woman" has to pass the test of their gender being beyond reasonable doubt before being accepted - and not "because I say I am a woman".
    The slight reservation I have about this is that it reminds me of the gays in the armed forces debate. The hypothesis of that was that gays might get excited by their male colleagues being naked etc and be a threat to them because they are that way inclined. It was, of course, complete nonsense. There was no more risk of a gay person being predatory than a hetrosexual person being so. We moved past that with little difficulty.

    I have no doubt that trans people are exactly the same. The vast majority of them will, like heterosexuals or gays, be completely harmless and a threat to no one. But a loophole has been created and exploited by what are in fact heterosexual predators to get into what are meant to be protected spaces.

    How do we deal with this loophole? One way, as I mentioned on the previous thread, is to gender neutralise the crime as we have in Scotland. The other is to set the goalposts for these protected areas slightly higher. So, in the general community you can self identify as whatever you like but if you want to get into those protected spaces you need to be sufficiently far along in the treatment that you are no longer biologically functional as a male.

    Quite why this practical issue has caused so much hysteria simply baffles me.
    This is so obviously the right answer that only hard-core ideologues could disagree.
    Ah, you mean policy drivers? Since the most committed can usually push things through against a majority which is less sure of what it thinks should happen.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,761
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    'It can seem churlish and ungrateful to criticise the NHS'

    To quote Nigel Lawson

    'The NHS is the closest thing the English have to a national religion'

    All the more powerful coming from a right wing Conservative. The trouble with anything near sacred is how do you criticise it? Love the NHS all you want if that is your thing but beware any institution put on an unchallenged pedestal.

    It wasn’t that long ago people were standing on their doorsteps applauding this institution.
    We should applaud. Also criticise it. It is over 1 million people, of course it will have very good and very bad within it.
    We applaud. We don’t criticise. The sheep like devotion to the NHS makes criticism of it deemed an outrage.
    Bollocks, I have often criticised the NHS, both above and below the line. No one has expressed outrage at me for that.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Six or seven cases..

    Tom Swarbrick
    @TomSwarbrick1
    Been reading the speech by @Baroness_Nichol about the hospital rape case.

    It is absolutely unbelievable.

    Write up here:
    https://twitter.com/TomSwarbrick1/status/1504761409476993025


    Emma Harriet Nicholson
    @Baroness_Nichol

    I’ve at least six or seven cases

    https://twitter.com/Baroness_Nichol/status/1504884038137491461

    Some awful takes on this from NHS professionals. Shooting the messenger.

    How these people get to work with vulnerable people is a mystery.

    https://www.reduxx.org/post/nhs-mental-health-specialist-deletes-twitter-account-after-gaslighting-rape-victim
    I honestly don't understand what it is going on in these cases. I know the Baroness was making a point about there being a man on the ward, but that seems beside the point.

    Supposedly the ward staff's sole response to the suggestion there had been a rape on the ward was that there were no men on the ward, which seems to indicate a complete lack of any cognitive function whatsoever, investigation, or any instinct to believe or listen to the victim at all.

    I don't think it's particularly helpful to think of the main point being whether the assault or rape was perpetrated by a man or woman given the imbelic nature of the (apparent) response.
    Doesn't make sense given that women (in all senses) can and do commit sexual assaults.
    Because the very precise legal definition of a 'rape' is 'penetration by a penis.'

    So the hospital were dancing on the head of a pin here: 'well, she can't have been raped, no penises to do it.' Therefore implying there was no chance of any sexual assault at all.

    And the reason of course is because as @Cyclefree notes if they admitted there had been there was a major safeguarding breach.

    The issue now is that in addition to letting their patients be raped that hospital trust has committed the crime of perverting the course of justice.

    All in all it is a brutally clear exposition of why self identification without certain very strict safeguards (I.e. call yourself what you like but no accessing female only spaces until transition is complete) is a very bad idea.
    I'm not even sure it is a correct assessment of the law, it would appear by all accounts that the perpetrator had a penis.

    The law does say "his penis" (etc.) but there is plenty of law on the statute book that refers to "he" when it means "a person".
    i think you've slightly missed the point. We're not talking about the law on what rape is or isn't. That's crystal clear. It's the hospital's response that is the issue by conflating 'identifying as a woman' with 'not having a penis.'
    My argument is purely in the alternative.

    I agree that it hospital's response that is the issue by conflating 'identifying as a woman' with 'not having a penis.'

    By I am not even sure they have the strict letter of the law to rely on. The whole response is baffling to me.
    It’s not baffling when you understand how Wokeness pervades many institutions. I’m guessing the NHS now has strict rules against “transphobia”. Perhaps it is a sacking offence?


    Saying that this self identifying woman is, in fact, a man with a penis would be transphobia. You’re denying her lived experience. That might get you sacked

    So when the police come knocking and say Was there a rape on this ward, you have to say No as only men can commit rape and there were indeed no men on the ward. Ergo rape cannot have occurred
    One of the more genius pieces of Woke rightthink was to rename "personal anecdote" to "lived experience"
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,371
    80% of the housing stock in Mariupol has been destroyed or damaged.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987
    edited March 2022
    IanB2 said:

    Wafw.
    It was only a matter of time I guess.




    He is such a twat.

    He never stopped to think how keen the Ukrainians are to join the EU.
    It should be perfectly possible to consider that the UK should not be in the EU, but that it would be of a very great benefit of Ukraine to be in the EU, and he probably does think that, but such blunt and silly allusions undermine that by connecting the ridiculous rhetoric of our Brexit debates to a very different circumstance.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,456
    edited March 2022
    Taz said:

    'It can seem churlish and ungrateful to criticise the NHS'

    To quote Nigel Lawson

    'The NHS is the closest thing the English have to a national religion'

    All the more powerful coming from a right wing Conservative. The trouble with anything near sacred is how do you criticise it? Love the NHS all you want if that is your thing but beware any institution put on an unchallenged pedestal.

    It wasn’t that long ago people were standing on their doorsteps applauding this institution.
    At the specific behest of a right wing sort of Conservative party.

    Who also wanted us to clap for bankers, which puts it into some sort of context. Or does it? "Speaking in the West Midlands – where he promised a bonfire of planning rules, so spark more housebuilding – Mr Johnson also hinted the rich were safe from future tax increases." (7/4/2020)

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-nhs-clap-bankers-coronavirus-a9593266.html
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987
    IanB2 said:

    Applicant said:

    .

    Sobering to read some of the comments on this thread about relatives' experiences - they were such an amazing generation. My own parents were lucky - my father had a desk job in intelligence (which he almost never talked about, loyal to the Official Secrets Act), my mother worked for UNRRA for refugees, and talked matter-of-factly as the worst moment being driving through Hammersmith while the buildings on both sides were on fire. Neither experienced any harm at all.

    On a more cheerful note, it's always fun to argue about lists, and here's the happiness list, with FINLAND winning again. Makes sense!

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/19/finland-named-worlds-happiest-country-for-fifth-year-running

    Finland, Finland, Finland
    The country where I quite want to be
    Your mountains so lofty
    Your treetops so tall
    Finland, Finland, Finland
    Finland has it all

    Finland’s not really mountainous.

    That reminds me of how Norway tried, but failed, to gift Finland a mountaintop close to their mutual border, for Finland’s 100th anniversary, that would have become the highest point in Finland. Such an imaginative gift.
    That is an interesting gift, any idea why it failed?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,290
    kle4 said:

    Wafw.
    It was only a matter of time I guess.




    We might need to see the full context. Contrasting how we can just pop down the polling station and change our nation's direction, the Ukrainians try that and have to face a Russian invasion.
    The full context appears to include the war on woke.



    https://twitter.com/BenQuinn75/status/1505160554608009216?s=20&t=M28TyD-odS8S7blvAKJvZQ
    I really think Tory strategists try too hard on the war on woke stuff. It comes across as distraction, when all they would need to do is highlight some of the more extreme and ridiculous instances of people quibbling about pronouns or cancelling things etc, and I think the general public can and does apply common sense on the ridiculous element. The Tories don't need to fan that fire, and the extent they do can undermine it by turning what for many public might be just a common sense issue, into a political one which will push people to take a partisan side instead.
    Disagree

    Most people are sensible about politics and therefore WAAAAAAY less well-informed than us geeks. And, as we see, many of the geeks on here don't understand Woke, or don't want to understand it, some refuse to believe it exists (which is actually understandable, in a way, because elements of it are so truly bizarre. It's a bit like the Victorians who refused to believe the first descriptions of a duck billed platypus)

    Therefore if you want to raise awareness and get people as angry as they should be, you have to be pretty damn brutal and heavy handed. The Republicans have shown that waging the Culture Wars can win elections, if you go in hard enough. They won Virginia thereby

    Someone should ask Starmer if a rape took place in that hospital. Because of his Wokeness, he won't be able to answer coherently. A well timed bomb like that could, by itself, win the GE for the Tories, by turning millions of despairing women away from Labour
This discussion has been closed.