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In Other News …. – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited March 2022 in General
imageIn Other News …. – politicalbetting.com

When the Stalinist horrors of Putin’s attempt to wipe out Ukraine fill our TV news every night, it is … well, if not a comfort exactly ….. at least wearily familiar to see some things never changing.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Hadn't read about the High Court ruling ... open-mouthed.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    Great header Cyclefree. The Met continue to be awful but they are just one manifestation of a deeply misogynistic culture and society.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    South Korea has reported 400,000 cases, just today

    An enormous wave of Covid is washing over them
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    I think I've just discovered SeanT's Finnish ancestor:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimo_Koivunen
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,630
    edited March 2022
    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    I think I've just discovered SeanT's Finnish ancestor:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimo_Koivunen

    What a brilliant discovery!

    How on earth did you end up down that rabbit hole - finding him?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Does this mean Piers Corbyn et al are owed an apology and refund?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/30/piers-corbyn-fined-10000-for-organising-anti-lockdown-rally

    Piers Corbyn has become one of the first people to receive a £10,000 fixed penalty under new coronavirus laws restricting public gatherings of more than 30 people.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,590

    Oooh.


    There's always something not in the headline, but this was the status quo ante. If so it looks like a face-saving deal to allow Russia to back away and declare victory.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    If this is true and this peace holds I will literally open champagne. We have come so close to global disaster

    Ins'allah!!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Leon said:

    I think I've just discovered SeanT's Finnish ancestor:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimo_Koivunen

    What a brilliant discovery!

    How on earth did you end up down that rabbit hole - finding him?
    Being discussed on another forum about the Ukraine war. It's a bit of an Arrse... ;)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    I think I've just discovered SeanT's Finnish ancestor:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimo_Koivunen

    What a brilliant discovery!

    How on earth did you end up down that rabbit hole - finding him?
    Being discussed on another forum about the Ukraine war. It's a bit of an Arrse... ;)


    The details are glorious


    "In the week Koivunen was gone, he subsisted only on pine buds and a single Siberian jay that he caught and ate raw. "
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    edited March 2022
    *🐎 🥰

    Jumped so well 🙏🏻 And stayed!
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,590
    mwadams said:

    Oooh.


    There's always something not in the headline, but this was the status quo ante. If so it looks like a face-saving deal to allow Russia to back away and declare victory.
    Ah - I see that it would involve the removal of the constitutional requirement to attempt to join NATO in favour of multilateral mutual military aid treaties.

    So that could absolutely be spun as "mission accomplished" in Moscow while actually being an improved guarantee for Ukraine.

    I really hope this isn't just the Russians buying time.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660
    edited March 2022
    If people actually went to jail when the Home Office or other august body breaks the law then maybe their policies will change.

    Why do they not Cyclefree? I keep reading articles about the law not being followed.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I think I've just discovered SeanT's Finnish ancestor:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimo_Koivunen

    What a brilliant discovery!

    How on earth did you end up down that rabbit hole - finding him?
    Being discussed on another forum about the Ukraine war. It's a bit of an Arrse... ;)


    The details are glorious


    "In the week Koivunen was gone, he subsisted only on pine buds and a single Siberian jay that he caught and ate raw. "
    That he remembered, tbf.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    It's getting yellower and yellower here in central London. Starting to look like those Martian lander photos.

    A few years ago we had one of these Saharan plumes on the first day of a holiday in Naxos. Overnight so much red dust fell in the rain that the swimming pool that came with the house we were renting was unusable for the rest of the week.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    If people actually went to jail when the Home Office or other body breaks the law then maybe their policies will change.

    Why do they not Cyclefree? I keep reading articles about the law not being followed.

    People often do go to jail. Just not the ones in the HO or MP.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    Leon said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    If this is true and this peace holds I will literally open champagne. We have come so close to global disaster

    Ins'allah!!
    I'd be torn between opening champagne/ESW with the relief that we all live to fight another day, and bitterly regretting the fact Putin remains at large. Until his death or final complete defeat Europe won't be safe.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I think I've just discovered SeanT's Finnish ancestor:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimo_Koivunen

    What a brilliant discovery!

    How on earth did you end up down that rabbit hole - finding him?
    Being discussed on another forum about the Ukraine war. It's a bit of an Arrse... ;)


    The details are glorious


    "In the week Koivunen was gone, he subsisted only on pine buds and a single Siberian jay that he caught and ate raw. "
    That he remembered, tbf.
    The fact he weighed 94 pounds - less than seven stone - when rescued, lends some credibility to that story. He certainly wasn't feasting

    He should have written a diet book. THE KOIVUNEN METHOD. Take an enormous amount of methamphetamine, get injured by land mine, set fire to enemy camp, lie is a ditch for a week. Lunch: one Siberian jay (uncooked)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    If this is true and this peace holds I will literally open champagne. We have come so close to global disaster

    Ins'allah!!
    I'd be torn between opening champagne/ESW with the relief that we all live to fight another day, and bitterly regretting the fact Putin remains at large. Until his death or final complete defeat Europe won't be safe.
    Who knows if this peace will happen, who knows if the Russians will stick to it (and it's not just a feint etc), but if it is real and it does stick then I'd say this is a major step towards the End of Putin.

    He's 69, and he's totally fucked his country's economy, for absolutely no gain at all. There will be a reckoning. His many rich friends will not be happy holidaying in Pyongyang for the rest of time
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    edited March 2022
    I fear this peace deal might just lead us to Round II in five years time. And next time the Russian military would have learnt its lessons.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    I've grown increasingly mad at our police over the last few years. Never perfect of course but itd increasingly impossible to ignore it is often incompetent or malicious (or both) with poor grasp of law or good practice, and a complete lack of intention to improve itself (its protestations otherwise at this point clearly being lies) and with no political will from government or opposition to make them change.

    These types of update are just no surprise anymore.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    In their rush to keep the middle class men they despise in the dock, Cyclefree and her ilk tend to forget the other ways the police and other authorities are letting down ''women and girls'' in our society. ie, their ongoing failure to use the law to fight grooming gangs.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10463833/Scathing-report-finds-extensive-failures-way-child-exploitation-tackled.html

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    edited March 2022

    I fear this peace deal might just lead us to Round II in five years time. And next time the Russian military would have learnt its lessons.

    That's quite possible. But then it also gives us five years to prepare too.

    Edit: note also this would be Round III. Looks like the light infantry training provided between Rounds I and II was a success - will we provide wider training and equipment this time?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310

    If people actually went to jail when the Home Office or other august body breaks the law then maybe their policies will change.

    Why do they not Cyclefree? I keep reading articles about the law not being followed.

    They are not breaking the criminal law. That's why prison isn't an option.

    What happens instead is the following:

    1. They pay out more of our money in compensation to those wronged.
    2. They then whinge about not having enough resources
    3. The senior persons in charge get promoted. Others may retire on full pensions. Juniors may be forced to go on a course.
    4. Some poor junior person gets to rewrite a lot of HR policies. These are sent out with a covering email saying "We really mean it this time". No-one reads the email or any of the policies.
    5. A woman police officer is sent out in public to do all the PR. When she resigns or retires a few years later she gives an interview saying how difficult and appalling it all was. She will occasionally get invited onto Newsnight or similar programmes to comment on the latest scandal. No-one with any power to make changes will pay the slightest bit of attention.

    What ought to happen:

    1. The persons responsible face serious disciplinary action and some of them get sacked.
    2.The police start paying attention to what the law says.

    Dream on .....
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,747
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I think I've just discovered SeanT's Finnish ancestor:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimo_Koivunen

    What a brilliant discovery!

    How on earth did you end up down that rabbit hole - finding him?
    Being discussed on another forum about the Ukraine war. It's a bit of an Arrse... ;)


    The details are glorious


    "In the week Koivunen was gone, he subsisted only on pine buds and a single Siberian jay that he caught and ate raw. "
    That he remembered, tbf.
    The fact he weighed 94 pounds - less than seven stone - when rescued, lends some credibility to that story. He certainly wasn't feasting

    He should have written a diet book. THE KOIVUNEN METHOD. Take an enormous amount of methamphetamine, get injured by land mine, set fire to enemy camp, lie is a ditch for a week. Lunch: one Siberian jay (uncooked)
    Siberian jays are the smallest of the crow family. Smaller than the Eurasian jay or the magpie, for instance.

    You'd have thought for his one meal he might have treated himself to at least a magpie, instead of stinting.

    Some people...
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,915
    edited March 2022
    Uliana Yapparova
    @Ulianalive
    Путин: «Российский народ всегда сможет отличить истинных патриотов от подонков и предателей и просто выплюнет их как случайно залетевшую мошку. Убежден, такое естественное самоочищение общества, только укрепит нашу страну».

    Послание валить из страны всем несогласным с убийцей.
    https://twitter.com/Ulianalive/status/1504103164424986624

    Putin: “The Russian people will always be able to distinguish true patriots from scum and traitors and simply spit them out like a random midge. I am convinced that such a natural self-purification of society will only strengthen our country.”

    Message to throw out of the country all those who disagree with the killer.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    Leon said:

    Who knows if this peace will happen, who knows if the Russians will stick to it (and it's not just a feint etc), but if it is real and it does stick then I'd say this is a major step towards the End of Putin.

    He's 69, and he's totally fucked his country's economy, for absolutely no gain at all. There will be a reckoning. His many rich friends will not be happy holidaying in Pyongyang for the rest of time

    Putin has undone decades of Soviet/Russian strategic aims in a matter of weeks. Putin lost the moment the German government decide to rearm, and that's only one of the many catastrophic outcomes of his stupid war. Putin could yet crush Ukraine, and perhaps even start a nuclear war, but strategically this is already a loss for Russia. I just hope the Russian people turn on their government, I would like to see Putin get his long overdue comeuppance.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    I fear this peace deal might just lead us to Round II in five years time. And next time the Russian military would have learnt its lessons.

    That's quite possible. But then it also gives us five years to prepare too.

    Edit: note also this would be Round III. Looks like the light infantry training provided between Rounds I and II was a success - will we provide wider training and equipment this time?
    IMV that'll be the key to a peace deal. What restrictions (if any) do Russia put on Ukraine's rearmament?

    I also hope the peace deal puts no obligations on other countries to remove sanctions.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    Big earthquake in Japan.
  • A final thought on the Iran debt of money, that some people seem happy to link to Iran's hostage-taking and I've seen some people here say "if this debt is real, why not pay it sooner, to release her sooner" . . . it has never been at dispute that the UK owes Iran this money. That has been true for decades.

    The UK has a proud record of being one of the only (if not the only) major developed economies to have never defaulted on its debts. The UK, like the Lannisters, always pays her debts - and this was an acknowledged debt all along to Iran.

    But Iran was under sanctions and has been the entire time that the Ayatollahs have been in charge. Sanctions are not a default, even if an acknowledged debt exists.

    The UK currently and rightly has all sorts of Russian money under sanctions. That is debts that the UK and British people, businesses or banks owe to Russia or Russian people, businesses or banks that can't be repaid. That isn't a default on those debts, its sanctions.

    So for all those saying "why not pay Iran sooner" - if Russia today takes some British citizens hostage, should we lift the sanctions we've imposed on Russia as a result? That's exactly what you're calling for with regards to Iran.

    There are all sorts of reasons why lifting sanctions on Iran may be appropriate - if we have a new deal with them, or realpolitik as we deal with the greater evil in Russia and need Iranian oil, or many other reasons. But that they've taken hostages should never be a justification for sanction-breaking.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779

    I fear this peace deal might just lead us to Round II in five years time. And next time the Russian military would have learnt its lessons.

    Hopefully the main lesson they have learned is don't invade Ukraine.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,915
    edited March 2022
    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Who knows if this peace will happen, who knows if the Russians will stick to it (and it's not just a feint etc), but if it is real and it does stick then I'd say this is a major step towards the End of Putin.

    He's 69, and he's totally fucked his country's economy, for absolutely no gain at all. There will be a reckoning. His many rich friends will not be happy holidaying in Pyongyang for the rest of time

    Putin has undone decades of Soviet/Russian strategic aims in a matter of weeks. Putin lost the moment the German government decide to rearm, and that's only one of the many catastrophic outcomes of his stupid war. Putin could yet crush Ukraine, and perhaps even start a nuclear war, but strategically this is already a loss for Russia. I just hope the Russian people turn on their government, I would like to see Putin get his long overdue comeuppance.
    This is what Putin wants for Germany, I think he'd like them armed for the job -

    In exchange for cooperating with Russia in this project, Dugin proposes that Germany be given back "Kaliningrad oblast' (Eastern Prussia)". As a result of a Grand Alliance between Russia and Germany, the two countries will divvy up the territories lying between them into de facto spheres of dominance. There is to be no "sanitary cordon."

    "The task of Eurasia," Dugin emphasizes, "consists in making sure such a [sanitary] cordon does not exist". Russia and Germany together, he insists, "must decide all disputed questions together and in advance".

    The integration of swaths of Western and Central European territory into a German sphere of dominance will be encouraged directly and abetted by Eurasia-Russia. The formation of a "FrancoGerman bloc" especially is to be supported. "In Germany and France,'" Dugin asserts, "there is a firm anti-Atlanticist tradition". Germany's influence likely will spread to the south--to Italy and Spain.

    Only Britain, "an extraterritorial floating base of the U.S." is to be cut off and shunned.

    John Dunlop on Dugin's Foundations Of Geopolitics
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    edited March 2022
    "British Airways scraps facemasks on flights"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/british-airways-scraps-facemasks-on-flights-cr93blmhr

    "British airlines to drop mask mandates as U.K. lifts remaining travel restrictions
    Passengers on some British Airways and Virgin Atlantic flights can remove their masks starting this week"
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2022/03/14/british-airlines-lift-mask-mandate/
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    rcs1000 said:

    Wow.

    That would be huge, if true.

    Of course, the Ukraine has still been bombed to high heaven, so it will be a "victory" that has cost it dear.

    And while Russia will no doubt avoid paying for the damage it has caused, it will have successfully drawn the West closer together, reversed half a century of German pacificism, ensured that Europe buys a lot less Russian energy, and made it pretty clear that Russian equipment is inferior to US, British, French and Swedish kit.

    Don't forget more Russians killed per week than the worst years of the Soviet-Afghan War.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    mwadams said:

    Oooh.


    There's always something not in the headline, but this was the status quo ante. If so it looks like a face-saving deal to allow Russia to back away and declare victory.
    According to the FT:

    "Ukraine and Russia have made significant progress on a tentative 15-point peace plan including a ceasefire and Russian withdrawal if Kyiv declares neutrality and accepts limits on its armed forces, according to three people involved in the talks."

    It is the "limits on its armed forces" that I would think would be the troubling bit - because that potentially opens the country up to being reinvaded in five years time.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926
    Andy_JS said:

    "British Airways scraps facemasks on flights"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/british-airways-scraps-facemasks-on-flights-cr93blmhr

    "British airlines to drop mask mandates as U.K. lifts remaining travel restrictions
    Passengers on some British Airways and Virgin Atlantic flights can remove their masks starting this week"
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2022/03/14/british-airlines-lift-mask-mandate/

    Just in time, wasn't looking forward to a 14 hour flight wearing one.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    glw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Wow.

    That would be huge, if true.

    Of course, the Ukraine has still been bombed to high heaven, so it will be a "victory" that has cost it dear.

    And while Russia will no doubt avoid paying for the damage it has caused, it will have successfully drawn the West closer together, reversed half a century of German pacificism, ensured that Europe buys a lot less Russian energy, and made it pretty clear that Russian equipment is inferior to US, British, French and Swedish kit.

    Don't forget more Russians killed per week than the worst years of the Soviet-Afghan War.
    Around 15,000 Soviet troops (so a much bigger country) were killed in the war in Afghanistan. It's entirely possible that they will have lost as many soldiers from Russia alone in just a few weeks.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    Andy_JS said:

    "British Airways scraps facemasks on flights"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/british-airways-scraps-facemasks-on-flights-cr93blmhr

    "British airlines to drop mask mandates as U.K. lifts remaining travel restrictions
    Passengers on some British Airways and Virgin Atlantic flights can remove their masks starting this week"
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2022/03/14/british-airlines-lift-mask-mandate/

    Sadly flights to and from the US will still require facemasks.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    rcs1000 said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    Wow.

    That would be huge, if true.

    Of course, the Ukraine has still been bombed to high heaven, so it will be a "victory" that has cost it dear.

    And while Russia will no doubt avoid paying for the damage it has caused, it will have successfully drawn the West closer together, reversed half a century of German pacificism, ensured that Europe buys a lot less Russian energy, and made it pretty clear that Russian equipment is inferior to US, British, French and Swedish kit.
    I hope this agreement doesn't in any way prevent Ukraine from joining the EU.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    rcs1000 said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    Wow.

    That would be huge, if true.

    Of course, the Ukraine has still been bombed to high heaven, so it will be a "victory" that has cost it dear.

    And while Russia will no doubt avoid paying for the damage it has caused, it will have successfully drawn the West closer together, reversed half a century of German pacificism, ensured that Europe buys a lot less Russian energy, and made it pretty clear that Russian equipment is inferior to US, British, French and Swedish kit.
    Who cares about NATO provided the guarantee reads:

    The guarantors agree that an armed attack against Ukraine shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist Ukraine by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other guarantors, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of Ukraine.

    And the guarantors are at a minimum UK, Poland, France and Germany.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,246

    A final thought on the Iran debt of money, that some people seem happy to link to Iran's hostage-taking and I've seen some people here say "if this debt is real, why not pay it sooner, to release her sooner" . . . it has never been at dispute that the UK owes Iran this money. That has been true for decades.

    The UK has a proud record of being one of the only (if not the only) major developed economies to have never defaulted on its debts. The UK, like the Lannisters, always pays her debts - and this was an acknowledged debt all along to Iran.

    But Iran was under sanctions and has been the entire time that the Ayatollahs have been in charge. Sanctions are not a default, even if an acknowledged debt exists.

    The UK currently and rightly has all sorts of Russian money under sanctions. That is debts that the UK and British people, businesses or banks owe to Russia or Russian people, businesses or banks that can't be repaid. That isn't a default on those debts, its sanctions.

    So for all those saying "why not pay Iran sooner" - if Russia today takes some British citizens hostage, should we lift the sanctions we've imposed on Russia as a result? That's exactly what you're calling for with regards to Iran.

    There are all sorts of reasons why lifting sanctions on Iran may be appropriate - if we have a new deal with them, or realpolitik as we deal with the greater evil in Russia and need Iranian oil, or many other reasons. But that they've taken hostages should never be a justification for sanction-breaking.

    The sanctions are/were a sideshow. The harsh reality is that if Iran develops a nuclear weapon the Israelis will take it out, leaving a big hole where Teheran used to be. For them it's an existential threat and no-one has the power to stop them. So the Iranians can either use the tank money for peaceful development or they can spend it making themselves a sitting target for a pre-emptive Israeli strike (with the Saudis cheering from the sidelines). They may well make the wrong decision, so it could be argued that by withholding the money we were doing them a favour, even if they couldn't see it that way.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561

    Uliana Yapparova
    @Ulianalive
    Путин: «Российский народ всегда сможет отличить истинных патриотов от подонков и предателей и просто выплюнет их как случайно залетевшую мошку. Убежден, такое естественное самоочищение общества, только укрепит нашу страну».

    Послание валить из страны всем несогласным с убийцей.
    https://twitter.com/Ulianalive/status/1504103164424986624

    Putin: “The Russian people will always be able to distinguish true patriots from scum and traitors and simply spit them out like a random midge. I am convinced that such a natural self-purification of society will only strengthen our country.”

    Message to throw out of the country all those who disagree with the killer.

    Does someone who has trashed the economy, trashed the military, sending the country back forty years not count as scum then, eh? You'd better hope not....
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Russia's state TV hit by stream of resignations

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60763494

    Shows courage, giving up a state guaranteed salary at a time of financial meltdown. Or an awareness which way the wind blows.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    rcs1000 said:

    glw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Wow.

    That would be huge, if true.

    Of course, the Ukraine has still been bombed to high heaven, so it will be a "victory" that has cost it dear.

    And while Russia will no doubt avoid paying for the damage it has caused, it will have successfully drawn the West closer together, reversed half a century of German pacificism, ensured that Europe buys a lot less Russian energy, and made it pretty clear that Russian equipment is inferior to US, British, French and Swedish kit.

    Don't forget more Russians killed per week than the worst years of the Soviet-Afghan War.
    Around 15,000 Soviet troops (so a much bigger country) were killed in the war in Afghanistan. It's entirely possible that they will have lost as many soldiers from Russia alone in just a few weeks.
    Based on US estimates, which are relatively conservative, they are already half way there.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    Let us assume that the peace deal is signed, and the world steps back from nuclear apocalypse. (Which would be a positive.)

    Does Putin survive?

    I mean, sure, he'll spin this as a victory. But it will be obvious to all but the most deluded that he will have spent an awful lot of money and lives on achieving the enmity of most of the world. Russian firms will probably continue to be under sanctions for some time. And Europe will continue to pivot away from Russian energy.

    Plus, of course, all but the most loony of his foreign "useful idiots" will have deserted him.

    I guess there are no obvious successors to him, and he runs a fairly vicious police state, so maybe he can continue. But he will have been dramatically weakened.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625

    Uliana Yapparova
    @Ulianalive
    Путин: «Российский народ всегда сможет отличить истинных патриотов от подонков и предателей и просто выплюнет их как случайно залетевшую мошку. Убежден, такое естественное самоочищение общества, только укрепит нашу страну».

    Послание валить из страны всем несогласным с убийцей.
    https://twitter.com/Ulianalive/status/1504103164424986624

    Putin: “The Russian people will always be able to distinguish true patriots from scum and traitors and simply spit them out like a random midge. I am convinced that such a natural self-purification of society will only strengthen our country.”

    Message to throw out of the country all those who disagree with the killer.

    There's a list circulating on Russian social media of various celebrities who are accused of treachery for "ignoring the genocide in Donbass".
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    rcs1000 said:

    glw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Wow.

    That would be huge, if true.

    Of course, the Ukraine has still been bombed to high heaven, so it will be a "victory" that has cost it dear.

    And while Russia will no doubt avoid paying for the damage it has caused, it will have successfully drawn the West closer together, reversed half a century of German pacificism, ensured that Europe buys a lot less Russian energy, and made it pretty clear that Russian equipment is inferior to US, British, French and Swedish kit.

    Don't forget more Russians killed per week than the worst years of the Soviet-Afghan War.
    Around 15,000 Soviet troops (so a much bigger country) were killed in the war in Afghanistan. It's entirely possible that they will have lost as many soldiers from Russia alone in just a few weeks.
    The Sun has some stunning footage of a tank getting NLAWed/Javelined (?) from what looks like short range. Absolute fireball obliteration.

    The efficacy of these weapons and others must have spread around the Russian troops
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    If this is true and this peace holds I will literally open champagne. We have come so close to global disaster

    Ins'allah!!
    I'd be torn between opening champagne/ESW with the relief that we all live to fight another day, and bitterly regretting the fact Putin remains at large. Until his death or final complete defeat Europe won't be safe.
    Who knows if this peace will happen, who knows if the Russians will stick to it (and it's not just a feint etc), but if it is real and it does stick then I'd say this is a major step towards the End of Putin.

    He's 69, and he's totally fucked his country's economy, for absolutely no gain at all. There will be a reckoning. His many rich friends will not be happy holidaying in Pyongyang for the rest of time
    There will be a gain, though, I think. East Ukraine and Crimea recognized as part of Russia. West Ukraine independent but unaligned. No EU, no NATO. Isn't that where it's heading?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    From the FT piece:

    Mykhailo Podolyak, a senior adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, told the Financial Times that any deal would involve “the troops of the Russian Federation in any case leaving the territory of Ukraine” captured since the invasion began on February 24 — namely southern regions along the Azov and Black Seas, as well as territory to the east and north of Kyiv.

    Ukraine would maintain its armed forces but would be obliged to stay outside military alliances such as Nato and refrain from hosting foreign military bases on its territory.



  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    Wow.

    That would be huge, if true.

    Of course, the Ukraine has still been bombed to high heaven, so it will be a "victory" that has cost it dear.

    And while Russia will no doubt avoid paying for the damage it has caused, it will have successfully drawn the West closer together, reversed half a century of German pacificism, ensured that Europe buys a lot less Russian energy, and made it pretty clear that Russian equipment is inferior to US, British, French and Swedish kit.
    Who cares about NATO provided the guarantee reads:

    The guarantors agree that an armed attack against Ukraine shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist Ukraine by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other guarantors, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of Ukraine.

    And the guarantors are at a minimum UK, Poland, France and Germany.
    Meanwhile, we don't say anything about allowing Belarus into NATO when we undermine the current Putinist regime there....

    Net overall disaster for Putin.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    Andy_JS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    Wow.

    That would be huge, if true.

    Of course, the Ukraine has still been bombed to high heaven, so it will be a "victory" that has cost it dear.

    And while Russia will no doubt avoid paying for the damage it has caused, it will have successfully drawn the West closer together, reversed half a century of German pacificism, ensured that Europe buys a lot less Russian energy, and made it pretty clear that Russian equipment is inferior to US, British, French and Swedish kit.
    I hope this agreement doesn't in any way prevent Ukraine from joining the EU.
    I hope so too although it's really none of our business.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Cyclefree said:

    MISTY said:

    In their rush to keep the middle class men they despise in the dock, Cyclefree and her ilk tend to forget the other ways the police and other authorities are letting down ''women and girls'' in our society. ie, their ongoing failure to use the law to fight grooming gangs.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10463833/Scathing-report-finds-extensive-failures-way-child-exploitation-tackled.html

    Excuse me.

    I have written about grooming gangs and child abuse in various headers.

    Here, for instance: https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/07/29/two-lessons-learnt/.

    Last July. Can't remember you commenting.

    Or here - https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/01/17/a-toxic-culture/. January 2020.

    Or here - http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/10/13/the-tyranny-of-low-expectations/. October 2019.

    I don't despise middle class men. I do expect them, naive fool that I am, to try to behave like decent people, like gentlemen even. And when they - or any man, come to that - don't behave well, I call them out on it. As I do to women who behave badly. Like, for instance and on topic, Cressida Dick.

    PS "my ilk". 😁 I'd love to know who they are.
    On topic: the biggest problem is the weird mindset on many in law enforcement and immigration.

    It comes across as passive aggressive, malicious compliance. With a very unattractive topping of completely irrelevent and insulting "victimhood".

    In fact it seems to be a deep rooted way of thinking. I remember being told by a moderately senior policeman that they *had* to use the Prevention of Terrorism act to detain young black men. Because it was there.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Lavrov says Russia needs Ukraine to be a neutral state "like Austria or Sweden"

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rawstory.com/amp/ukraine-rejects-russian-neutrality-idea-as-us-steps-up-aid-2656968579

    Suggests Russia accepts Ukraine can be an EU member.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    rcs1000 said:

    From the FT piece:

    Mykhailo Podolyak, a senior adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, told the Financial Times that any deal would involve “the troops of the Russian Federation in any case leaving the territory of Ukraine” captured since the invasion began on February 24 — namely southern regions along the Azov and Black Seas, as well as territory to the east and north of Kyiv.

    Ukraine would maintain its armed forces but would be obliged to stay outside military alliances such as Nato and refrain from hosting foreign military bases on its territory.



    I think they should agree not possess any nuclear weapons over 100 megatons in yield.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    Meanwhile the leader of the Opposition cannot even define what a woman is.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153

    A final thought on the Iran debt of money, that some people seem happy to link to Iran's hostage-taking and I've seen some people here say "if this debt is real, why not pay it sooner, to release her sooner" . . . it has never been at dispute that the UK owes Iran this money. That has been true for decades.

    The UK has a proud record of being one of the only (if not the only) major developed economies to have never defaulted on its debts. The UK, like the Lannisters, always pays her debts - and this was an acknowledged debt all along to Iran.

    But Iran was under sanctions and has been the entire time that the Ayatollahs have been in charge. Sanctions are not a default, even if an acknowledged debt exists.

    The UK currently and rightly has all sorts of Russian money under sanctions. That is debts that the UK and British people, businesses or banks owe to Russia or Russian people, businesses or banks that can't be repaid. That isn't a default on those debts, its sanctions.

    So for all those saying "why not pay Iran sooner" - if Russia today takes some British citizens hostage, should we lift the sanctions we've imposed on Russia as a result? That's exactly what you're calling for with regards to Iran.

    There are all sorts of reasons why lifting sanctions on Iran may be appropriate - if we have a new deal with them, or realpolitik as we deal with the greater evil in Russia and need Iranian oil, or many other reasons. But that they've taken hostages should never be a justification for sanction-breaking.

    The sanctions are/were a sideshow. The harsh reality is that if Iran develops a nuclear weapon the Israelis will take it out, leaving a big hole where Teheran used to be. For them it's an existential threat and no-one has the power to stop them. So the Iranians can either use the tank money for peaceful development or they can spend it making themselves a sitting target for a pre-emptive Israeli strike (with the Saudis cheering from the sidelines). They may well make the wrong decision, so it could be argued that by withholding the money we were doing them a favour, even if they couldn't see it that way.
    A fairly senior Saudi Royal once said "we have been enemies with the Israelis for fifty years; but we have been enemies with the Persians for fifteen hundren years."
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    rcs1000 said:

    From the FT piece:

    Mykhailo Podolyak, a senior adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, told the Financial Times that any deal would involve “the troops of the Russian Federation in any case leaving the territory of Ukraine” captured since the invasion began on February 24 — namely southern regions along the Azov and Black Seas, as well as territory to the east and north of Kyiv.

    Ukraine would maintain its armed forces but would be obliged to stay outside military alliances such as Nato and refrain from hosting foreign military bases on its territory.

    Meanwhile, NATO builds some monster bases on the Polish border, with a missile shield creating an effective No Fly Zone capability over a big chunk of Ukraine should Russia go for Round 2.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    Uliana Yapparova
    @Ulianalive
    Путин: «Российский народ всегда сможет отличить истинных патриотов от подонков и предателей и просто выплюнет их как случайно залетевшую мошку. Убежден, такое естественное самоочищение общества, только укрепит нашу страну».

    Послание валить из страны всем несогласным с убийцей.
    https://twitter.com/Ulianalive/status/1504103164424986624

    Putin: “The Russian people will always be able to distinguish true patriots from scum and traitors and simply spit them out like a random midge. I am convinced that such a natural self-purification of society will only strengthen our country.”

    Message to throw out of the country all those who disagree with the killer.

    Does someone who has trashed the economy, trashed the military, sending the country back forty years not count as scum then, eh? You'd better hope not....
    All very "A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual", isn't it?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    glw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    glw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Wow.

    That would be huge, if true.

    Of course, the Ukraine has still been bombed to high heaven, so it will be a "victory" that has cost it dear.

    And while Russia will no doubt avoid paying for the damage it has caused, it will have successfully drawn the West closer together, reversed half a century of German pacificism, ensured that Europe buys a lot less Russian energy, and made it pretty clear that Russian equipment is inferior to US, British, French and Swedish kit.

    Don't forget more Russians killed per week than the worst years of the Soviet-Afghan War.
    Around 15,000 Soviet troops (so a much bigger country) were killed in the war in Afghanistan. It's entirely possible that they will have lost as many soldiers from Russia alone in just a few weeks.
    Based on US estimates, which are relatively conservative, they are already half way there.
    Oh, I think Russian deaths are already over 10,000, and quite possible over 15,000 already.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926
    rcs1000 said:

    A final thought on the Iran debt of money, that some people seem happy to link to Iran's hostage-taking and I've seen some people here say "if this debt is real, why not pay it sooner, to release her sooner" . . . it has never been at dispute that the UK owes Iran this money. That has been true for decades.

    The UK has a proud record of being one of the only (if not the only) major developed economies to have never defaulted on its debts. The UK, like the Lannisters, always pays her debts - and this was an acknowledged debt all along to Iran.

    But Iran was under sanctions and has been the entire time that the Ayatollahs have been in charge. Sanctions are not a default, even if an acknowledged debt exists.

    The UK currently and rightly has all sorts of Russian money under sanctions. That is debts that the UK and British people, businesses or banks owe to Russia or Russian people, businesses or banks that can't be repaid. That isn't a default on those debts, its sanctions.

    So for all those saying "why not pay Iran sooner" - if Russia today takes some British citizens hostage, should we lift the sanctions we've imposed on Russia as a result? That's exactly what you're calling for with regards to Iran.

    There are all sorts of reasons why lifting sanctions on Iran may be appropriate - if we have a new deal with them, or realpolitik as we deal with the greater evil in Russia and need Iranian oil, or many other reasons. But that they've taken hostages should never be a justification for sanction-breaking.

    The sanctions are/were a sideshow. The harsh reality is that if Iran develops a nuclear weapon the Israelis will take it out, leaving a big hole where Teheran used to be. For them it's an existential threat and no-one has the power to stop them. So the Iranians can either use the tank money for peaceful development or they can spend it making themselves a sitting target for a pre-emptive Israeli strike (with the Saudis cheering from the sidelines). They may well make the wrong decision, so it could be argued that by withholding the money we were doing them a favour, even if they couldn't see it that way.
    A fairly senior Saudi Royal once said "we have been enemies with the Israelis for fifty years; but we have been enemies with the Persians for fifteen hundren years."
    Did they get that line from Yes Minister? cf the nuclear threat from the French.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    IshmaelZ said:

    Russia's state TV hit by stream of resignations

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60763494

    Shows courage, giving up a state guaranteed salary at a time of financial meltdown. Or an awareness which way the wind blows.

    It has been delightful to see how many proud Russian patriotic democrats there have been in all this. They have been an inspiration in their courage. It shows tremendous hope for a future liberal Russia.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    rcs1000 said:

    Let us assume that the peace deal is signed, and the world steps back from nuclear apocalypse. (Which would be a positive.)

    Does Putin survive?

    I mean, sure, he'll spin this as a victory. But it will be obvious to all but the most deluded that he will have spent an awful lot of money and lives on achieving the enmity of most of the world. Russian firms will probably continue to be under sanctions for some time. And Europe will continue to pivot away from Russian energy.

    Plus, of course, all but the most loony of his foreign "useful idiots" will have deserted him.

    I guess there are no obvious successors to him, and he runs a fairly vicious police state, so maybe he can continue. But he will have been dramatically weakened.

    I'm trying to work out what happens to Putin, but it's hard because there are almost no historical parallels to draw on. Never before - AFAICS - has the leader of a major developed nation made such a colossal, unforced mistake

    That said, Napoleon invading Russia is similar. That certainly captures the scale of this disaster. Up there with the Grande Armee advancing and then retreating from Moscow

    Of course, that is the case ONLY IF the war ends now on the terms we can glimpse. I do not wish to Tempt Fate
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    If this is true and this peace holds I will literally open champagne. We have come so close to global disaster

    Ins'allah!!
    I'd be torn between opening champagne/ESW with the relief that we all live to fight another day, and bitterly regretting the fact Putin remains at large. Until his death or final complete defeat Europe won't be safe.
    Who knows if this peace will happen, who knows if the Russians will stick to it (and it's not just a feint etc), but if it is real and it does stick then I'd say this is a major step towards the End of Putin.

    He's 69, and he's totally fucked his country's economy, for absolutely no gain at all. There will be a reckoning. His many rich friends will not be happy holidaying in Pyongyang for the rest of time
    There will be a gain, though, I think. East Ukraine and Crimea recognized as part of Russia. West Ukraine independent but unaligned. No EU, no NATO. Isn't that where it's heading?
    It's a gain for Russia (and one that sticks in my craw), but it may be worth it for peace. In addition, Russia's been badly hurt by this - especially if we don't remove all sanctions.

    This whole adventure has been a disaster for Ukraine and Russia. Except Russia chose it. It is their fault.

    I hope Putin goes to hell and rots there.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    If this is true and this peace holds I will literally open champagne. We have come so close to global disaster

    Ins'allah!!
    I'd be torn between opening champagne/ESW with the relief that we all live to fight another day, and bitterly regretting the fact Putin remains at large. Until his death or final complete defeat Europe won't be safe.
    Who knows if this peace will happen, who knows if the Russians will stick to it (and it's not just a feint etc), but if it is real and it does stick then I'd say this is a major step towards the End of Putin.

    He's 69, and he's totally fucked his country's economy, for absolutely no gain at all. There will be a reckoning. His many rich friends will not be happy holidaying in Pyongyang for the rest of time
    There will be a gain, though, I think. East Ukraine and Crimea recognized as part of Russia. West Ukraine independent but unaligned. No EU, no NATO. Isn't that where it's heading?
    You mean the small separatist regions in the East? They are - it should be noted - tiny.

    From the details leaked to the FT, EU membership appears to still be on the table. Whether the EU will want to accept - with the consequent massive financial obligations - Ukraine as a member is another question altogether.

    I would hope that the West (and this would be a great opportunity for the EU to lead) will help with the rebuilding of the Ukraine. And I would expect that - absent regime change in Moscow - we will demand help from Russia in paying for it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    President Vladimir V. Putin hinted that the Kremlin is preparing to further crack down on dissidents and anyone with ties to the West, saying that Russia’s enemies were betting on a “fifth column, on national traitors” inside the country who were “not with our people, not with Russia.”

    NY Times blog
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    A final thought on the Iran debt of money, that some people seem happy to link to Iran's hostage-taking and I've seen some people here say "if this debt is real, why not pay it sooner, to release her sooner" . . . it has never been at dispute that the UK owes Iran this money. That has been true for decades.

    The UK has a proud record of being one of the only (if not the only) major developed economies to have never defaulted on its debts. The UK, like the Lannisters, always pays her debts - and this was an acknowledged debt all along to Iran.

    But Iran was under sanctions and has been the entire time that the Ayatollahs have been in charge. Sanctions are not a default, even if an acknowledged debt exists.

    The UK currently and rightly has all sorts of Russian money under sanctions. That is debts that the UK and British people, businesses or banks owe to Russia or Russian people, businesses or banks that can't be repaid. That isn't a default on those debts, its sanctions.

    So for all those saying "why not pay Iran sooner" - if Russia today takes some British citizens hostage, should we lift the sanctions we've imposed on Russia as a result? That's exactly what you're calling for with regards to Iran.

    There are all sorts of reasons why lifting sanctions on Iran may be appropriate - if we have a new deal with them, or realpolitik as we deal with the greater evil in Russia and need Iranian oil, or many other reasons. But that they've taken hostages should never be a justification for sanction-breaking.

    The sanctions are/were a sideshow. The harsh reality is that if Iran develops a nuclear weapon the Israelis will take it out, leaving a big hole where Teheran used to be. For them it's an existential threat and no-one has the power to stop them. So the Iranians can either use the tank money for peaceful development or they can spend it making themselves a sitting target for a pre-emptive Israeli strike (with the Saudis cheering from the sidelines). They may well make the wrong decision, so it could be argued that by withholding the money we were doing them a favour, even if they couldn't see it that way.
    A fairly senior Saudi Royal once said "we have been enemies with the Israelis for fifty years; but we have been enemies with the Persians for fifteen hundren years."
    Did they get that line from Yes Minister? cf the nuclear threat from the French.
    I think Yes Minister may have got it from the Saudias.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    Uliana Yapparova
    @Ulianalive
    Путин: «Российский народ всегда сможет отличить истинных патриотов от подонков и предателей и просто выплюнет их как случайно залетевшую мошку. Убежден, такое естественное самоочищение общества, только укрепит нашу страну».

    Послание валить из страны всем несогласным с убийцей.
    https://twitter.com/Ulianalive/status/1504103164424986624

    Putin: “The Russian people will always be able to distinguish true patriots from scum and traitors and simply spit them out like a random midge. I am convinced that such a natural self-purification of society will only strengthen our country.”

    Message to throw out of the country all those who disagree with the killer.

    There's a list circulating on Russian social media of various celebrities who are accused of treachery for "ignoring the genocide in Donbass".
    "Self purification" and getting rid of "scum" and "midges" sounds pretty Nazi language.

    He'll be blaming jewish celebrities next.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    If this is true and this peace holds I will literally open champagne. We have come so close to global disaster

    Ins'allah!!
    I'd be torn between opening champagne/ESW with the relief that we all live to fight another day, and bitterly regretting the fact Putin remains at large. Until his death or final complete defeat Europe won't be safe.
    Who knows if this peace will happen, who knows if the Russians will stick to it (and it's not just a feint etc), but if it is real and it does stick then I'd say this is a major step towards the End of Putin.

    He's 69, and he's totally fucked his country's economy, for absolutely no gain at all. There will be a reckoning. His many rich friends will not be happy holidaying in Pyongyang for the rest of time
    There will be a gain, though, I think. East Ukraine and Crimea recognized as part of Russia. West Ukraine independent but unaligned. No EU, no NATO. Isn't that where it's heading?
    You mean the small separatist regions in the East? They are - it should be noted - tiny.

    From the details leaked to the FT, EU membership appears to still be on the table. Whether the EU will want to accept - with the consequent massive financial obligations - Ukraine as a member is another question altogether.

    I would hope that the West (and this would be a great opportunity for the EU to lead) will help with the rebuilding of the Ukraine. And I would expect that - absent regime change in Moscow - we will demand help from Russia in paying for it.
    In the event Ukraine applying for membership, I would bet my house and my children against their being refused.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Cyclefree said:

    MISTY said:

    In their rush to keep the middle class men they despise in the dock, Cyclefree and her ilk tend to forget the other ways the police and other authorities are letting down ''women and girls'' in our society. ie, their ongoing failure to use the law to fight grooming gangs.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10463833/Scathing-report-finds-extensive-failures-way-child-exploitation-tackled.html

    Excuse me.

    I have written about grooming gangs and child abuse in various headers.

    Here, for instance: https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/07/29/two-lessons-learnt/.

    Last July. Can't remember you commenting.

    Or here - https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/01/17/a-toxic-culture/. January 2020.

    Or here - http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/10/13/the-tyranny-of-low-expectations/. October 2019.

    I don't despise middle class men. I do expect them, naive fool that I am, to try to behave like decent people, like gentlemen even. And when they - or any man, come to that - don't behave well, I call them out on it. As I do to women who behave badly. Like, for instance and on topic, Cressida Dick.

    PS "my ilk". 😁 I'd love to know who they are.
    These stories just keep on coming. Another worrisome header. Nonetheless an interesting read, as usual.
  • Andy_JS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    Wow.

    That would be huge, if true.

    Of course, the Ukraine has still been bombed to high heaven, so it will be a "victory" that has cost it dear.

    And while Russia will no doubt avoid paying for the damage it has caused, it will have successfully drawn the West closer together, reversed half a century of German pacificism, ensured that Europe buys a lot less Russian energy, and made it pretty clear that Russian equipment is inferior to US, British, French and Swedish kit.
    I hope this agreement doesn't in any way prevent Ukraine from joining the EU.
    I hope so too although it's really none of our business.
    Completely disagreed. Friendly nations having their choices changed by force of arms absolutely is our business.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    rcs1000 said:

    Let us assume that the peace deal is signed, and the world steps back from nuclear apocalypse. (Which would be a positive.)

    Does Putin survive?

    I mean, sure, he'll spin this as a victory. But it will be obvious to all but the most deluded that he will have spent an awful lot of money and lives on achieving the enmity of most of the world. Russian firms will probably continue to be under sanctions for some time. And Europe will continue to pivot away from Russian energy.

    Plus, of course, all but the most loony of his foreign "useful idiots" will have deserted him.

    I guess there are no obvious successors to him, and he runs a fairly vicious police state, so maybe he can continue. But he will have been dramatically weakened.

    Nord Stream 2 will still be dead. The US has always opposed it.

    Even if the Germans demand it is re-instated (and they may well not), why would the US unwind the sanctions that make it impossible?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    rcs1000 said:

    Let us assume that the peace deal is signed, and the world steps back from nuclear apocalypse. (Which would be a positive.)

    Does Putin survive?

    I mean, sure, he'll spin this as a victory. But it will be obvious to all but the most deluded that he will have spent an awful lot of money and lives on achieving the enmity of most of the world. Russian firms will probably continue to be under sanctions for some time. And Europe will continue to pivot away from Russian energy.

    Plus, of course, all but the most loony of his foreign "useful idiots" will have deserted him.

    I guess there are no obvious successors to him, and he runs a fairly vicious police state, so maybe he can continue. But he will have been dramatically weakened.

    Sadly, that's why I doubt there will be a peace deal unless he has effectively lost on the battlefield. And even then he may just doubt down with horror weapons.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    rcs1000 said:

    mwadams said:

    Oooh.


    There's always something not in the headline, but this was the status quo ante. If so it looks like a face-saving deal to allow Russia to back away and declare victory.
    According to the FT:

    "Ukraine and Russia have made significant progress on a tentative 15-point peace plan including a ceasefire and Russian withdrawal if Kyiv declares neutrality and accepts limits on its armed forces, according to three people involved in the talks."

    It is the "limits on its armed forces" that I would think would be the troubling bit - because that potentially opens the country up to being reinvaded in five years time.
    Can't see Ukr MP, Kira Rudik, for one, going for that!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926
    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    If this is true and this peace holds I will literally open champagne. We have come so close to global disaster

    Ins'allah!!
    I'd be torn between opening champagne/ESW with the relief that we all live to fight another day, and bitterly regretting the fact Putin remains at large. Until his death or final complete defeat Europe won't be safe.
    Who knows if this peace will happen, who knows if the Russians will stick to it (and it's not just a feint etc), but if it is real and it does stick then I'd say this is a major step towards the End of Putin.

    He's 69, and he's totally fucked his country's economy, for absolutely no gain at all. There will be a reckoning. His many rich friends will not be happy holidaying in Pyongyang for the rest of time
    There will be a gain, though, I think. East Ukraine and Crimea recognized as part of Russia. West Ukraine independent but unaligned. No EU, no NATO. Isn't that where it's heading?
    You mean the small separatist regions in the East? They are - it should be noted - tiny.

    From the details leaked to the FT, EU membership appears to still be on the table. Whether the EU will want to accept - with the consequent massive financial obligations - Ukraine as a member is another question altogether.

    I would hope that the West (and this would be a great opportunity for the EU to lead) will help with the rebuilding of the Ukraine. And I would expect that - absent regime change in Moscow - we will demand help from Russia in paying for it.
    In the event Ukraine applying for membership, I would bet my house and my children against their being refused.
    Could end up being a modern day Turkey in that respect. No doubt the initial application will be approved, but we've already heard noises from the western countries that it won't be a quick process.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    President Vladimir V. Putin hinted that the Kremlin is preparing to further crack down on dissidents and anyone with ties to the West, saying that Russia’s enemies were betting on a “fifth column, on national traitors” inside the country who were “not with our people, not with Russia.”

    NY Times blog

    That sounds like he knows this war is a calamity, and his presidency is consequently in danger. These are not the words of a confident leader
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    If this is true and this peace holds I will literally open champagne. We have come so close to global disaster

    Ins'allah!!
    I'd be torn between opening champagne/ESW with the relief that we all live to fight another day, and bitterly regretting the fact Putin remains at large. Until his death or final complete defeat Europe won't be safe.
    Who knows if this peace will happen, who knows if the Russians will stick to it (and it's not just a feint etc), but if it is real and it does stick then I'd say this is a major step towards the End of Putin.

    He's 69, and he's totally fucked his country's economy, for absolutely no gain at all. There will be a reckoning. His many rich friends will not be happy holidaying in Pyongyang for the rest of time
    There will be a gain, though, I think. East Ukraine and Crimea recognized as part of Russia. West Ukraine independent but unaligned. No EU, no NATO. Isn't that where it's heading?
    It's a gain for Russia (and one that sticks in my craw), but it may be worth it for peace. In addition, Russia's been badly hurt by this - especially if we don't remove all sanctions.

    This whole adventure has been a disaster for Ukraine and Russia. Except Russia chose it. It is their fault.

    I hope Putin goes to hell and rots there.
    Yes, truly awful man. I hope what comes after him - whenever that is - is enlightened and democratic. I don't buy the notion there's something innate about Russia which precludes this.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    RobD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    If this is true and this peace holds I will literally open champagne. We have come so close to global disaster

    Ins'allah!!
    I'd be torn between opening champagne/ESW with the relief that we all live to fight another day, and bitterly regretting the fact Putin remains at large. Until his death or final complete defeat Europe won't be safe.
    Who knows if this peace will happen, who knows if the Russians will stick to it (and it's not just a feint etc), but if it is real and it does stick then I'd say this is a major step towards the End of Putin.

    He's 69, and he's totally fucked his country's economy, for absolutely no gain at all. There will be a reckoning. His many rich friends will not be happy holidaying in Pyongyang for the rest of time
    There will be a gain, though, I think. East Ukraine and Crimea recognized as part of Russia. West Ukraine independent but unaligned. No EU, no NATO. Isn't that where it's heading?
    You mean the small separatist regions in the East? They are - it should be noted - tiny.

    From the details leaked to the FT, EU membership appears to still be on the table. Whether the EU will want to accept - with the consequent massive financial obligations - Ukraine as a member is another question altogether.

    I would hope that the West (and this would be a great opportunity for the EU to lead) will help with the rebuilding of the Ukraine. And I would expect that - absent regime change in Moscow - we will demand help from Russia in paying for it.
    In the event Ukraine applying for membership, I would bet my house and my children against their being refused.
    Could end up being a modern day Turkey in that respect. No doubt the initial application will be approved, but we've already heard noises from the western countries that it won't be a quick process.
    To meet the conditions for corruption levels, rule of law, economics which are written into the current accession process would take a long time.

    I think it was on the order of decade for some of the Eastern countries?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    rcs1000 said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    Wow.

    That would be huge, if true.

    Of course, the Ukraine has still been bombed to high heaven, so it will be a "victory" that has cost it dear.

    And while Russia will no doubt avoid paying for the damage it has caused, it will have successfully drawn the West closer together, reversed half a century of German pacificism, ensured that Europe buys a lot less Russian energy, and made it pretty clear that Russian equipment is inferior to US, British, French and Swedish kit.
    I don't see why Russia should avoid paying for the damage they have done. Plainly the aggression is theirs. And there are provisions in International Law.

    And the cash needed for compensation is mainly Russian Govt reserves frozen in Western and other banks. Plus perhaps ill-gotten gains of Putin-cronies could be confiscated.

    It would not surprise me if there were already some lawyers working on keeping those frozen assets, frozen.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Let us assume that the peace deal is signed, and the world steps back from nuclear apocalypse. (Which would be a positive.)

    Does Putin survive?

    I mean, sure, he'll spin this as a victory. But it will be obvious to all but the most deluded that he will have spent an awful lot of money and lives on achieving the enmity of most of the world. Russian firms will probably continue to be under sanctions for some time. And Europe will continue to pivot away from Russian energy.

    Plus, of course, all but the most loony of his foreign "useful idiots" will have deserted him.

    I guess there are no obvious successors to him, and he runs a fairly vicious police state, so maybe he can continue. But he will have been dramatically weakened.

    I'm trying to work out what happens to Putin, but it's hard because there are almost no historical parallels to draw on. Never before - AFAICS - has the leader of a major developed nation made such a colossal, unforced mistake

    That said, Napoleon invading Russia is similar. That certainly captures the scale of this disaster. Up there with the Grande Armee advancing and then retreating from Moscow

    Of course, that is the case ONLY IF the war ends now on the terms we can glimpse. I do not wish to Tempt Fate
    Hitler marching on Moscow, and the Sicilian expedition in the Peloponnesian War.

    In all three cases, nemesis took years rather than months to show up.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Leon said:

    President Vladimir V. Putin hinted that the Kremlin is preparing to further crack down on dissidents and anyone with ties to the West, saying that Russia’s enemies were betting on a “fifth column, on national traitors” inside the country who were “not with our people, not with Russia.”

    NY Times blog

    That sounds like he knows this war is a calamity, and his presidency is consequently in danger. These are not the words of a confident leader
    My thoughts exactly. It may also be, unfortunately, why he is keen to get a peace now so he can turn his attention to cracking down on dissent at home.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    If this is true and this peace holds I will literally open champagne. We have come so close to global disaster

    Ins'allah!!
    I'd be torn between opening champagne/ESW with the relief that we all live to fight another day, and bitterly regretting the fact Putin remains at large. Until his death or final complete defeat Europe won't be safe.
    Who knows if this peace will happen, who knows if the Russians will stick to it (and it's not just a feint etc), but if it is real and it does stick then I'd say this is a major step towards the End of Putin.

    He's 69, and he's totally fucked his country's economy, for absolutely no gain at all. There will be a reckoning. His many rich friends will not be happy holidaying in Pyongyang for the rest of time
    There will be a gain, though, I think. East Ukraine and Crimea recognized as part of Russia. West Ukraine independent but unaligned. No EU, no NATO. Isn't that where it's heading?
    You mean the small separatist regions in the East? They are - it should be noted - tiny.

    From the details leaked to the FT, EU membership appears to still be on the table. Whether the EU will want to accept - with the consequent massive financial obligations - Ukraine as a member is another question altogether.

    I would hope that the West (and this would be a great opportunity for the EU to lead) will help with the rebuilding of the Ukraine. And I would expect that - absent regime change in Moscow - we will demand help from Russia in paying for it.
    Sanctions on Russia should not be lifted until they help pay to rebuild Ukraine. This won't even start to compensate for the loss of life, but it will make them pay a price
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    rcs1000 said:

    Big earthquake in Japan.

    Oh good, we needed a distraction.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    President Vladimir V. Putin hinted that the Kremlin is preparing to further crack down on dissidents and anyone with ties to the West, saying that Russia’s enemies were betting on a “fifth column, on national traitors” inside the country who were “not with our people, not with Russia.”

    NY Times blog

    That sounds like he knows this war is a calamity, and his presidency is consequently in danger. These are not the words of a confident leader
    My thoughts exactly. It may also be, unfortunately, why he is keen to get a peace now so he can turn his attention to cracking down on dissent at home.
    My guess is that the next step will be Russia trying to tie a peace deal to revocation of all sanctions, immediately, and the startup of Nord Stream 2.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    Wow.

    That would be huge, if true.

    Of course, the Ukraine has still been bombed to high heaven, so it will be a "victory" that has cost it dear.

    And while Russia will no doubt avoid paying for the damage it has caused, it will have successfully drawn the West closer together, reversed half a century of German pacificism, ensured that Europe buys a lot less Russian energy, and made it pretty clear that Russian equipment is inferior to US, British, French and Swedish kit.
    I don't see why Russia should avoid paying for the damage they have done. Plainly the aggression is theirs. And there are provisions in International Law.

    And the cash needed for compensation is mainly Russian Govt reserves frozen in Western and other banks. Plus perhaps ill-gotten gains of Putin-cronies could be confiscated.

    It would not surprise me if there were already some lawyers working on keeping those frozen assets, frozen.
    You can either learn from the mistakes of history, or repeat them. Massive reparations, economic collapse, hyperinflation... can you think of any precedents, and how did they work out?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Russia’s leaders have lied & lied & lied. So there’s every reason to be sceptical of anything it says it might accept. It’s strategically lost in Ukraine, militarily stuck & Internationally a pariah. It may be looking for a way out, or a strategic pause to resupply & rethink.

    https://twitter.com/BillNeelyReport/status/1504115600754360322
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    If this is true and this peace holds I will literally open champagne. We have come so close to global disaster

    Ins'allah!!
    I'd be torn between opening champagne/ESW with the relief that we all live to fight another day, and bitterly regretting the fact Putin remains at large. Until his death or final complete defeat Europe won't be safe.
    Who knows if this peace will happen, who knows if the Russians will stick to it (and it's not just a feint etc), but if it is real and it does stick then I'd say this is a major step towards the End of Putin.

    He's 69, and he's totally fucked his country's economy, for absolutely no gain at all. There will be a reckoning. His many rich friends will not be happy holidaying in Pyongyang for the rest of time
    There will be a gain, though, I think. East Ukraine and Crimea recognized as part of Russia. West Ukraine independent but unaligned. No EU, no NATO. Isn't that where it's heading?
    You mean the small separatist regions in the East? They are - it should be noted - tiny.

    From the details leaked to the FT, EU membership appears to still be on the table. Whether the EU will want to accept - with the consequent massive financial obligations - Ukraine as a member is another question altogether.

    I would hope that the West (and this would be a great opportunity for the EU to lead) will help with the rebuilding of the Ukraine. And I would expect that - absent regime change in Moscow - we will demand help from Russia in paying for it.
    They are small, aren't they. I was surprised when I checked.

    I guess Putin has to show gains for a deal to be possible. The key thing is that what it's cost him should be greater than those gains. Then it's a loss. Aggression has not paid.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    If this is true and this peace holds I will literally open champagne. We have come so close to global disaster

    Ins'allah!!
    I'd be torn between opening champagne/ESW with the relief that we all live to fight another day, and bitterly regretting the fact Putin remains at large. Until his death or final complete defeat Europe won't be safe.
    Who knows if this peace will happen, who knows if the Russians will stick to it (and it's not just a feint etc), but if it is real and it does stick then I'd say this is a major step towards the End of Putin.

    He's 69, and he's totally fucked his country's economy, for absolutely no gain at all. There will be a reckoning. His many rich friends will not be happy holidaying in Pyongyang for the rest of time
    There will be a gain, though, I think. East Ukraine and Crimea recognized as part of Russia. West Ukraine independent but unaligned. No EU, no NATO. Isn't that where it's heading?
    It's a gain for Russia (and one that sticks in my craw), but it may be worth it for peace. In addition, Russia's been badly hurt by this - especially if we don't remove all sanctions.

    This whole adventure has been a disaster for Ukraine and Russia. Except Russia chose it. It is their fault.

    I hope Putin goes to hell and rots there.
    Yes, truly awful man. I hope what comes after him - whenever that is - is enlightened and democratic. I don't buy the notion there's something innate about Russia which precludes this.
    Theres nothing innate about it but it is hard enough to maintain democratic norms even in places it already exists, without vigilance, spent ain't easy. As a counter to that even a Russian peasant knows things about the world now, and it is maybe easier to start from scratch than it used to be.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    rcs1000 said:

    Let us assume that the peace deal is signed, and the world steps back from nuclear apocalypse. (Which would be a positive.)

    Does Putin survive?

    I mean, sure, he'll spin this as a victory. But it will be obvious to all but the most deluded that he will have spent an awful lot of money and lives on achieving the enmity of most of the world. Russian firms will probably continue to be under sanctions for some time. And Europe will continue to pivot away from Russian energy.

    Plus, of course, all but the most loony of his foreign "useful idiots" will have deserted him.

    I guess there are no obvious successors to him, and he runs a fairly vicious police state, so maybe he can continue. But he will have been dramatically weakened.

    Sadly, that's why I doubt there will be a peace deal unless he has effectively lost on the battlefield. And even then he may just doubt down with horror weapons.
    There are reports that Russia is so desperate for manpower in Ukraine that, not only is it pulling out its force in South Ossetia but also that South Ossetia is “donating” forces for the Ukrainian conflict (I agree with @rcs1000 that Russia’s manpower casualties may already be above 15,000).

    The other big issue that Russia has got here is time. Economically, the longer this goes on, the more drain on their economy. Militarily, Ukraine will also get “stronger” as it receives more equipment and recent recruits are more trained and / or foreign recruits start to be deployed.

    If Lavrov is talking about Sweden and Austria as models, the Russians have clearly seen the signs on the wall.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    "Ukraine rejects Russian peace talks proposal to become 'neutral' like Sweden - and demands guarantees that international forces will 'prevent attacks' in future"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10618473/Russias-Lavrov-says-neutrality-Ukraine-seriously-discussed.html
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    Russia’s leaders have lied & lied & lied. So there’s every reason to be sceptical of anything it says it might accept. It’s strategically lost in Ukraine, militarily stuck & Internationally a pariah. It may be looking for a way out, or a strategic pause to resupply & rethink.

    https://twitter.com/BillNeelyReport/status/1504115600754360322

    The strategic pause is what concerns me. Putin is not to be trusted. He would think it would be a good psychological game to give Ukraine and the West the belief that there was peace only to renege and start shelling Kyiv. He has given the world every reason to distrust everything he says and does.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241

    RobD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    If this is true and this peace holds I will literally open champagne. We have come so close to global disaster

    Ins'allah!!
    I'd be torn between opening champagne/ESW with the relief that we all live to fight another day, and bitterly regretting the fact Putin remains at large. Until his death or final complete defeat Europe won't be safe.
    Who knows if this peace will happen, who knows if the Russians will stick to it (and it's not just a feint etc), but if it is real and it does stick then I'd say this is a major step towards the End of Putin.

    He's 69, and he's totally fucked his country's economy, for absolutely no gain at all. There will be a reckoning. His many rich friends will not be happy holidaying in Pyongyang for the rest of time
    There will be a gain, though, I think. East Ukraine and Crimea recognized as part of Russia. West Ukraine independent but unaligned. No EU, no NATO. Isn't that where it's heading?
    You mean the small separatist regions in the East? They are - it should be noted - tiny.

    From the details leaked to the FT, EU membership appears to still be on the table. Whether the EU will want to accept - with the consequent massive financial obligations - Ukraine as a member is another question altogether.

    I would hope that the West (and this would be a great opportunity for the EU to lead) will help with the rebuilding of the Ukraine. And I would expect that - absent regime change in Moscow - we will demand help from Russia in paying for it.
    In the event Ukraine applying for membership, I would bet my house and my children against their being refused.
    Could end up being a modern day Turkey in that respect. No doubt the initial application will be approved, but we've already heard noises from the western countries that it won't be a quick process.
    To meet the conditions for corruption levels, rule of law, economics which are written into the current accession process would take a long time.

    I think it was on the order of decade for some of the Eastern countries?
    Didn't take long for East Germany.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    RobD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Oooh, the FT are reporting this.


    If this is true and this peace holds I will literally open champagne. We have come so close to global disaster

    Ins'allah!!
    I'd be torn between opening champagne/ESW with the relief that we all live to fight another day, and bitterly regretting the fact Putin remains at large. Until his death or final complete defeat Europe won't be safe.
    Who knows if this peace will happen, who knows if the Russians will stick to it (and it's not just a feint etc), but if it is real and it does stick then I'd say this is a major step towards the End of Putin.

    He's 69, and he's totally fucked his country's economy, for absolutely no gain at all. There will be a reckoning. His many rich friends will not be happy holidaying in Pyongyang for the rest of time
    There will be a gain, though, I think. East Ukraine and Crimea recognized as part of Russia. West Ukraine independent but unaligned. No EU, no NATO. Isn't that where it's heading?
    You mean the small separatist regions in the East? They are - it should be noted - tiny.

    From the details leaked to the FT, EU membership appears to still be on the table. Whether the EU will want to accept - with the consequent massive financial obligations - Ukraine as a member is another question altogether.

    I would hope that the West (and this would be a great opportunity for the EU to lead) will help with the rebuilding of the Ukraine. And I would expect that - absent regime change in Moscow - we will demand help from Russia in paying for it.
    In the event Ukraine applying for membership, I would bet my house and my children against their being refused.
    Could end up being a modern day Turkey in that respect. No doubt the initial application will be approved, but we've already heard noises from the western countries that it won't be a quick process.
    To meet the conditions for corruption levels, rule of law, economics which are written into the current accession process would take a long time.

    I think it was on the order of decade for some of the Eastern countries?
    Didn't take long for East Germany.
    Or you could compare the Ukraine with Bulgaria as it is today and just wave the less corrupt country in...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited March 2022

    rcs1000 said:

    mwadams said:

    Oooh.


    There's always something not in the headline, but this was the status quo ante. If so it looks like a face-saving deal to allow Russia to back away and declare victory.
    According to the FT:

    "Ukraine and Russia have made significant progress on a tentative 15-point peace plan including a ceasefire and Russian withdrawal if Kyiv declares neutrality and accepts limits on its armed forces, according to three people involved in the talks."

    It is the "limits on its armed forces" that I would think would be the troubling bit - because that potentially opens the country up to being reinvaded in five years time.
    Can't see Ukr MP, Kira Rudik, for one, going for that!
    There will be hard choices and Zekensky may make one that dents his popularity.

    It's hard to see how either side could really agree on the neutrality point. For Russia it's the whole point but for Ukraine its giving up on a path they want to take.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    Ha.

    @MoonRabbit you’re a genius
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Let us assume that the peace deal is signed, and the world steps back from nuclear apocalypse. (Which would be a positive.)

    Does Putin survive?

    I mean, sure, he'll spin this as a victory. But it will be obvious to all but the most deluded that he will have spent an awful lot of money and lives on achieving the enmity of most of the world. Russian firms will probably continue to be under sanctions for some time. And Europe will continue to pivot away from Russian energy.

    Plus, of course, all but the most loony of his foreign "useful idiots" will have deserted him.

    I guess there are no obvious successors to him, and he runs a fairly vicious police state, so maybe he can continue. But he will have been dramatically weakened.

    I'm trying to work out what happens to Putin, but it's hard because there are almost no historical parallels to draw on. Never before - AFAICS - has the leader of a major developed nation made such a colossal, unforced mistake

    That said, Napoleon invading Russia is similar. That certainly captures the scale of this disaster. Up there with the Grande Armee advancing and then retreating from Moscow

    Of course, that is the case ONLY IF the war ends now on the terms we can glimpse. I do not wish to Tempt Fate
    Hitler marching on Moscow, and the Sicilian expedition in the Peloponnesian War.

    In all three cases, nemesis took years rather than months to show up.
    Mind you, Napoleon actually took Moscow.

    Putin aint getting anywhere near kyiv at this rate.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    edited March 2022

    A final thought on the Iran debt of money, that some people seem happy to link to Iran's hostage-taking and I've seen some people here say "if this debt is real, why not pay it sooner, to release her sooner" . . . it has never been at dispute that the UK owes Iran this money. That has been true for decades.

    The UK has a proud record of being one of the only (if not the only) major developed economies to have never defaulted on its debts. The UK, like the Lannisters, always pays her debts - and this was an acknowledged debt all along to Iran.

    But Iran was under sanctions and has been the entire time that the Ayatollahs have been in charge. Sanctions are not a default, even if an acknowledged debt exists.

    The UK currently and rightly has all sorts of Russian money under sanctions. That is debts that the UK and British people, businesses or banks owe to Russia or Russian people, businesses or banks that can't be repaid. That isn't a default on those debts, its sanctions.

    So for all those saying "why not pay Iran sooner" - if Russia today takes some British citizens hostage, should we lift the sanctions we've imposed on Russia as a result? That's exactly what you're calling for with regards to Iran.

    There are all sorts of reasons why lifting sanctions on Iran may be appropriate - if we have a new deal with them, or realpolitik as we deal with the greater evil in Russia and need Iranian oil, or many other reasons. But that they've taken hostages should never be a justification for sanction-breaking.

    The sanctions are/were a sideshow. The harsh reality is that if Iran develops a nuclear weapon the Israelis will take it out, leaving a big hole where Teheran used to be. For them it's an existential threat and no-one has the power to stop them. So the Iranians can either use the tank money for peaceful development or they can spend it making themselves a sitting target for a pre-emptive Israeli strike (with the Saudis cheering from the sidelines). They may well make the wrong decision, so it could be argued that by withholding the money we were doing them a favour, even if they couldn't see it that way.
    From that it sounds more like Israel is an existential threat to Iran.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Russia’s leaders have lied & lied & lied. So there’s every reason to be sceptical of anything it says it might accept. It’s strategically lost in Ukraine, militarily stuck & Internationally a pariah. It may be looking for a way out, or a strategic pause to resupply & rethink.

    https://twitter.com/BillNeelyReport/status/1504115600754360322

    NB this bit: "dropping sanctions will be key"

    That's going to be a tough sell in the West. Our sanctions are clearly working. Do we just drop them all because Russia makes a vague promise?

    It would have to be a negotiated process, done step by step
This discussion has been closed.