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When’s Trump going to condemn Putin? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited March 2022 in General
When’s Trump going to condemn Putin? – politicalbetting.com

OPINION TODAYTwo Years Into the Pandemic, Americans Inch Closer to a New Normal … The GOP’s roller-coaster ride with Putin … Hispanic women emerge as big winners in Texas GOP primary … America’s Very Peculiar Economic Funk … & much more: https://t.co/F0SVU7rXu9 pic.twitter.com/n6TIO8n66o

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    First unlike Trump...
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    Second like him
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Fourth like Switzerland
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    On that Boles nonsense from the last therad:

    https://twitter.com/thatfoxxybloke/status/1499798096498376708

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Applicant said:

    On that Boles nonsense from the last therad:

    https://twitter.com/thatfoxxybloke/status/1499798096498376708

    Lol

    One for the Site’s Official Wanker, @Scott_xP
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Can't see it. He's an admirer of Putin.
    Course, if he does backpedal he'll just deny he ever said it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    Ukraine still has "a significant majority" of aircraft available against Russia, including fixed-wing, drones, and helicopters: senior U.S. official.

    https://twitter.com/JackDetsch/status/1499770470849294352
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Incredible scenes from Kyiv as the citizens wait for their president


    https://twitter.com/mari_nikuradze/status/1499795993537224712?s=21


    I think they have made their choice. They are fighting to the last. One can only salute them
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,955
    Has Trump ever reverse ferreted shamelessly on an issue before, and if yes, did it dent his popularity with the MAGA faithful?

    Qtwtaiy
    Qtwtain
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    With a bit of luck this will do for Trump. Unlike Marine Le Pen and the SDP in Germany, he’s too dumb to understand why this is so obviously bad.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    The assassinate Putin and no-fly-zone arguments have been dismantled in the last thread.

    Suppose, however, something like a chemical weapons attack on a "non-Russian" city like Lviv. Or the brutal and very public execution of Zelenskyy. I think it's possible Putin faces down the west with something like that.

    What then? Full naval blockade of British territorial waters? A limited nfz over western Ukraine?
  • Applicant said:

    On that Boles nonsense from the last therad:

    https://twitter.com/thatfoxxybloke/status/1499798096498376708

    UK tops the poll by the people who matter - Ukrainians
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Has Trump ever reverse ferreted shamelessly on an issue before, and if yes, did it dent his popularity with the MAGA faithful?

    Qtwtaiy
    Qtwtain

    Unfortunately so. It is far too easy to see a situation where he reverse ferrets and it should reveal him as even more ridiculous because of his past positions and prevent anyone supporting him, but instead the GOP just focusing on Biden's responses not being good enough.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    edited March 2022
    Leon said:

    Applicant said:

    On that Boles nonsense from the last therad:

    https://twitter.com/thatfoxxybloke/status/1499798096498376708

    Lol

    One for the Site’s Official Wanker, @Scott_xP
    I’m not his number one fan but that’s a little unfair Leon. In the last week many of his contributions have been worthwhile.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Trump's initial reaction - "this is so smart, what an operator" - says everything.

    He loves a fascist strongman. Wants to be one. Just the thought thrills him.

    And he's dumb as a post.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Leon said:

    Incredible scenes from Kyiv as the citizens wait for their president


    https://twitter.com/mari_nikuradze/status/1499795993537224712?s=21


    I think they have made their choice. They are fighting to the last. One can only salute them

    Er, my bad. That is in fact Tbilisi.

    But on the other hand that makes this event more remarkable. An entirely foreign country. Fervent
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    Applicant said:

    On that Boles nonsense from the last therad:

    https://twitter.com/thatfoxxybloke/status/1499798096498376708

    Lol

    One for the Site’s Official Wanker, @Scott_xP
    Shit

    I have never made a noticeable moral stand on this site, but I am happy to nominate myself as PPS to the Official Wanker. I don't see what is anti UK or anti Brexit about being mildly displeased by our having the most corrupt and incompetent leader in the first world. you really think there is nothing remotely iffy about our kid glove handling of oligarchs? Pig Dog is bought and sold.
  • Ukraine still has "a significant majority" of aircraft available against Russia, including fixed-wing, drones, and helicopters: senior U.S. official.

    https://twitter.com/JackDetsch/status/1499770470849294352

    Deborah Haynes, Sky brave and excellent reporter in Ukraine, has just heard Ukrainian jets fly over her head and said it is remarkable that Russia has not got control of the air after 9 days

    This comment makes me think this could be why NATO have not enforced no fly zones yet
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Perhaps they're not obsessed by Brexit?

    Chelyabinsk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    What do my Brexiteer friends and former colleagues think of the fact that the EU has proven itself to be far more muscular and effective than the U.K. government led by Boris Johnson? Across the board: delivering weapons, increasing defence budgets and enforcing sanctions.
    https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1499789959137484806

    What do the Ukrainians think?

    Telephone poll of 1,040 adults in Ukraine, 1-3 March 2022, weighted to be nationally representative. "Do you think each of the following are doing enough or not enough to help Ukraine?"
    • NATO: 23% enough, 65% not enough, net -42
    • The EU: 46% enough, 45% not enough, net +1
    • The United States: 44% enough, 49% not enough, net -5
    • The United Kingdom: 53% enough, 35% not enough, net +18

    EU score presumably due to the range of responses that includes. Pretty level headed scores on the whole - they know NATO could theoretically do a lot more than anyone, as a group, and that the USA could do a lot more than the UK.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    Applicant said:

    On that Boles nonsense from the last therad:

    https://twitter.com/thatfoxxybloke/status/1499798096498376708

    I don't think Boles being the worst kind of embittered Remoaner is news.

    FWIW, I think that none of us has done as much as we could. It's great that we've helped, but we can do more. We can order the production of tens of thousands more MLAWs, so that we can ship them to Ukraine if they need them for a start.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826

    Ukraine still has "a significant majority" of aircraft available against Russia, including fixed-wing, drones, and helicopters: senior U.S. official.

    https://twitter.com/JackDetsch/status/1499770470849294352

    Are they sacrificing the south? Obviously Kiev is the priority. I'd like to think they are keeping something in reserve to hit that second front coming into Kiev from the east.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    The fall of Putin taking Trump down with him would be one of the best twofers of all time.

    Oligarchs blowing the whistle on Johnson would make it the hat trick
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    The thing that I don't get is - given Trumps apparent liking for Putin - why was there no rapprochment over the 4 years he was in power? It seems like relations between the US and Russia were simply frozen for all that time. Why was there no deal? Very strange. To me it reveals more about Putin than Trump.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    NEW - Russian commanders have been killed after they felt they had to move closer to the front lines, western officials say. Deputy Commander of the 41st combined arms Army killed by sniper fire. A divisional commander and a regimental commander also killed.

    Russian commanders moving further forward to get more control and impetus behind operations which have, in some cases, badly stalled. Those commanders are trying to impose their own personality on the battlefield but this in turn, is placing them at greater risk, w. officials say

    Fragilities in systems,combined with remarkable Ukrainian resistance,has shocked Russian commanders, western officials say, and is having a psychological impact on Russian troops because of ferocity of the fight. But for all the problems, they are likely to adapt,say w. officials


    https://twitter.com/gordoncorera/status/1499784845601521665
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153

    Perhaps they're not obsessed by Brexit?

    Chelyabinsk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    What do my Brexiteer friends and former colleagues think of the fact that the EU has proven itself to be far more muscular and effective than the U.K. government led by Boris Johnson? Across the board: delivering weapons, increasing defence budgets and enforcing sanctions.
    https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1499789959137484806

    What do the Ukrainians think?

    Telephone poll of 1,040 adults in Ukraine, 1-3 March 2022, weighted to be nationally representative. "Do you think each of the following are doing enough or not enough to help Ukraine?"
    • NATO: 23% enough, 65% not enough, net -42
    • The EU: 46% enough, 45% not enough, net +1
    • The United States: 44% enough, 49% not enough, net -5
    • The United Kingdom: 53% enough, 35% not enough, net +18
    I love this concept that the EU have been much more muscular with military side of things.....the UK has been sending support for years, in particular past several months basically everything went via UK, and the training e.g. the SAS trained the SoF (who apparently have been doing extremely well against Russian VDV).

    The Germans for instance thought sending some helmets until a couple of days ago was good enough and even yesterday sent them soviet era piece of shit weapons that have been stuck in a warehouse in Eastern Germany for the past 30 odd years. They are more likely to blow up the Ukrainians trying to use them.

    I don't think the Germans missiles will actually blow up, I think they will simply make a "pssss.... klum..." noise, and fail to fire.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    Ukraine still has "a significant majority" of aircraft available against Russia, including fixed-wing, drones, and helicopters: senior U.S. official.

    https://twitter.com/JackDetsch/status/1499770470849294352

    Deborah Haynes, Sky brave and excellent reporter in Ukraine, has just heard Ukrainian jets fly over her head and said it is remarkable that Russia has not got control of the air after 9 days

    This comment makes me think this could be why NATO have not enforced no fly zones yet
    Well.
    That and it being totally insane.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited March 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Applicant said:

    On that Boles nonsense from the last therad:

    https://twitter.com/thatfoxxybloke/status/1499798096498376708

    Lol

    One for the Site’s Official Wanker, @Scott_xP
    Shit

    I have never made a noticeable moral stand on this site, but I am happy to nominate myself as PPS to the Official Wanker. I don't see what is anti UK or anti Brexit about being mildly displeased by our having the most corrupt and incompetent leader in the first world. you really think there is nothing remotely iffy about our kid glove handling of oligarchs? Pig Dog is bought and sold.
    It’s not this one example, it is the endless bitter spewing of hatred, by @Scott_xP against everything British and all Britons, because we dared to vote for Brexit. It is not just monumentally boring it is mentally diseased. He is driven mad by this subject. And for his own sake he should take a break. For a year or three. I do not believe this weird unhinged commentary is making him any happier

    But of course it is between him and his mods whether he chooses to do that.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Alright, here is another Mud & truck maintenance post. Look at the tires in the video immediately under the wheel hubs.

    That is oil from the wheel hubs leaking onto those tires from the hub to the ground.

    The seals on those wheel hubs have failed due to dry rot.

    One or more of those Pantsir-S1 wheel assemblies have seized from a lack of lubrication because of leaks through the dry rotted seals.

    It takes about a year of not moving a vehicle for that to happen.

    Those poor Russian conscripts are so screwed.
    2/2

    https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1499763286392385541
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited March 2022
    boulay said:


    It’s a crazy thought but if Ukraine miraculously wins they might just feel that seven years of training their army and early mass provision of weapons was more helpful to them than seizing two yachts.

    I think criticism of could the UK do more on sanctions is valid. Seizing a couple of yachts is the equivalent of when you see the US cops seize a big drugs haul. Its good for publicity and a photo op, but you haven't actually cracked the core issue.

    There were reports last night the EU are playing silly buggers with SWIFT and actually they only want bans on a limited number of Russian institutions.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited March 2022



    I love this concept that the EU have been much more muscular with military side of things.....the UK has been sending support for years, in particular past several months basically everything went via UK, and the training e.g. the SAS trained the SoF (who apparently have been doing extremely well against Russian VDV).

    The Germans for instance thought sending some helmets until a couple of days ago was good enough and even yesterday sent them soviet era piece of shit weapons that have been stuck in a warehouse in Eastern Germany for the past 30 odd years. They are more likely to blow up the Ukrainians trying to use them.

    I presume embarrassment at the EU's handbrake turn is whats driving a lot of this "count the sanctions" behaviour.

    Is Rotterdam still open to Russian shipping?

    Felixstowe isn't.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,955
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Applicant said:

    On that Boles nonsense from the last therad:

    https://twitter.com/thatfoxxybloke/status/1499798096498376708

    Lol

    One for the Site’s Official Wanker, @Scott_xP
    Shit

    I have never made a noticeable moral stand on this site, but I am happy to nominate myself as PPS to the Official Wanker. I don't see what is anti UK or anti Brexit about being mildly displeased by our having the most corrupt and incompetent leader in the first world. you really think there is nothing remotely iffy about our kid glove handling of oligarchs? Pig Dog is bought and sold.
    It’s not this one example, it is the endless bitter spewing of hatred, by @Scott_xP against everything British and all Britons, because we dared to vote for Brexit. It is not just monumentally boring it is mentally diseased. He is driven mad by this subject. And for his own sake he should take a break. For a year or three. I do not believe this weird unhinged commentary is making him any happier

    But of course it is between him and his mods whether he chooses to do that.
    All Britons voted for Brexit? Does that mean that those of us who did not vote for it are non Britons? I’m cool with that.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    "India’s position at the HRC adds to a string of abstentions at the United Nations and multilateral groups since the start of Russian military operations in Ukraine on February 24, even as the continuing Russian military advances in Ukraine have seen more and more countries vote for resolutions that criticise Moscow . The Modi government has decided to abstain from three votes at the UN Security Council, two at the UN General Assembly in New York, two at the Human Rights Council in Geneva, and one at the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) in Vienna."

    https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/india-abstains-in-unhrc-vote-on-establishing-independent-commission-of-inquiry-on-russia-ukraine-crisis/article65190155.ece?homepage=true
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited March 2022
    Re sanctions, I refer those to this video (again). From Patrick Boyle (a former hedge fund manager and academic), it seems like the things that got 2 seconds of coverage are actually really big deals, but much more complex than headline of we impounded a yacht or even banning Russian institutions from SWIFT.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QlpTlz073k&
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    'When’s Trump going to condemn Putin?'

    When he thinks it will benefit him to do so.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    A question - why have the Russians not established air superiority.

    On paper, the Russians have modern fighter aircraft, modern missiles, ground based radars, and a few airborne radars. They also have, again on paper, an array of SAM systems that should be able to shoot down aircraft from Russia most of the way to Poland.

    - Are they saving their fight for a battle with NATO?
    - Are they so low on ammo/maintenance they can't do much?
    - ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    rcs1000 said:


    I don't think the Germans missiles will actually blow up, I think they will simply make a "pssss.... klum..." noise, and fail to fire.

    I might be a bit concerned they are like a firework that fails to go off, you think its a duffer and then you approach and it blows itself up.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    edited March 2022
    rcs1000 said:



    I love this concept that the EU have been much more muscular with military side of things.....the UK has been sending support for years, in particular past several months basically everything went via UK, and the training e.g. the SAS trained the SoF (who apparently have been doing extremely well against Russian VDV).

    The Germans for instance thought sending some helmets until a couple of days ago was good enough and even yesterday sent them soviet era piece of shit weapons that have been stuck in a warehouse in Eastern Germany for the past 30 odd years. They are more likely to blow up the Ukrainians trying to use them.

    I don't think the Germans missiles will actually blow up, I think they will simply make a "pssss.... klum..." noise, and fail to fire.

    There's already reports out of Ukraine that the weapons the Germans sent are "mouldy" and don't work properly or at all so have been scrapped. UK, US and Swedish weapons coming out on top at the moment according to the research people at home. Lots of pledges from European countries but not a lot arriving is the other constant theme.

    One interesting analysis (from last week, I only got to read it this morning) suggested that the US and UK should deploy special forces in Ukraine to defend nuclear power stations from any Russian attacks due to the risk of catastrophic outcomes. I feel as though that junior researcher deserves a raise.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    edited March 2022
    A small, peripheral point.
    There are two sports which dominate Russia. Football and (ice) hockey.
    The football. teams have been expelled from Europe. Their foreign players are leaving and contracts paid in Euros. Huge travel by plane.
    The league can't continue for long with owners sanctioned.
    Hockey. This is the KHL. They face all the same issues, as well as their Latvian and Finnish teams pulled out already.
    This is the kind of thing which can't go unnoticed by your average Russian.
    Whatever the propaganda.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited March 2022

    A question - why have the Russians not established air superiority.

    On paper, the Russians have modern fighter aircraft, modern missiles, ground based radars, and a few airborne radars. They also have, again on paper, an array of SAM systems that should be able to shoot down aircraft from Russia most of the way to Poland.

    - Are they saving their fight for a battle with NATO?
    - Are they so low on ammo/maintenance they can't do much?
    - ?

    RUSI guy said last night on Unherd interview that in his opinion it is because it requires a lot of detailed planning, for maintenance, supplies, target info, coordination with ground operations. And that it seems clear that Putin doesn't trust anybody because of all the leaks and so many parts of the invasion forces genuinely thought until go day it was all a big buff, so commanders have been left high and dry, scrambling around to try and catch up with proper planning.

    He also said he thinks though that they are now getting it together.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    rcs1000 said:

    Perhaps they're not obsessed by Brexit?

    Chelyabinsk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    What do my Brexiteer friends and former colleagues think of the fact that the EU has proven itself to be far more muscular and effective than the U.K. government led by Boris Johnson? Across the board: delivering weapons, increasing defence budgets and enforcing sanctions.
    https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1499789959137484806

    What do the Ukrainians think?

    Telephone poll of 1,040 adults in Ukraine, 1-3 March 2022, weighted to be nationally representative. "Do you think each of the following are doing enough or not enough to help Ukraine?"
    • NATO: 23% enough, 65% not enough, net -42
    • The EU: 46% enough, 45% not enough, net +1
    • The United States: 44% enough, 49% not enough, net -5
    • The United Kingdom: 53% enough, 35% not enough, net +18
    I love this concept that the EU have been much more muscular with military side of things.....the UK has been sending support for years, in particular past several months basically everything went via UK, and the training e.g. the SAS trained the SoF (who apparently have been doing extremely well against Russian VDV).

    The Germans for instance thought sending some helmets until a couple of days ago was good enough and even yesterday sent them soviet era piece of shit weapons that have been stuck in a warehouse in Eastern Germany for the past 30 odd years. They are more likely to blow up the Ukrainians trying to use them.
    I don't think the Germans missiles will actually blow up, I think they will simply make a "pssss.... klum..." noise, and fail to fire.



    In fact, a few days back, people were explaining that Germany was being very sensible in asking UK military flights delivering weapons not to fly over Germany.

    30 year solid fuel rocket motors are hate speech on the *recipient*.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    I presume embarrassment at the EU's handbrake turn is whats driving a lot of this "count the sanctions" behaviour.

    Is Rotterdam still open to Russian shipping?

    Felixstowe isn't.

    Eugene Shvidler's Jet LX-FLY Landed in Farnborough, England, GB. Apx. flt. time 5 Hours : 50 Mins. https://twitter.com/RUOligarchJets/status/1499665180262817793/photo/1
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    "India’s position at the HRC adds to a string of abstentions at the United Nations and multilateral groups since the start of Russian military operations in Ukraine on February 24, even as the continuing Russian military advances in Ukraine have seen more and more countries vote for resolutions that criticise Moscow . The Modi government has decided to abstain from three votes at the UN Security Council, two at the UN General Assembly in New York, two at the Human Rights Council in Geneva, and one at the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) in Vienna."

    https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/india-abstains-in-unhrc-vote-on-establishing-independent-commission-of-inquiry-on-russia-ukraine-crisis/article65190155.ece?homepage=true

    Which is a surprise only to those who know nowt about Modi.
    A government the Tories have been keen to big up their close connections to.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:



    I love this concept that the EU have been much more muscular with military side of things.....the UK has been sending support for years, in particular past several months basically everything went via UK, and the training e.g. the SAS trained the SoF (who apparently have been doing extremely well against Russian VDV).

    The Germans for instance thought sending some helmets until a couple of days ago was good enough and even yesterday sent them soviet era piece of shit weapons that have been stuck in a warehouse in Eastern Germany for the past 30 odd years. They are more likely to blow up the Ukrainians trying to use them.

    I don't think the Germans missiles will actually blow up, I think they will simply make a "pssss.... klum..." noise, and fail to fire.

    There's already reports out of Ukraine that the weapons the Germans sent are "mouldy" and don't work properly or at all so have been scrapped. UK, US and Swedish weapons coming out on top at the moment according to the research people at home. Lots of pledges from European countries but not a lot arriving is the other constant theme.

    One interesting analysis (from last week, I only got to read it this morning) suggested that the US and UK should deploy special forces in Ukraine to defend nuclear power stations from any Russian attacks due to the risk of catastrophic outcomes. I feel as though that junior researcher deserves a raise.
    Do we not think that there might already be some "lost businessmen" in Ukraine?
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    edited March 2022
    rcs1000 said:

    Applicant said:

    On that Boles nonsense from the last therad:

    https://twitter.com/thatfoxxybloke/status/1499798096498376708

    I don't think Boles being the worst kind of embittered Remoaner is news.

    FWIW, I think that none of us has done as much as we could. It's great that we've helped, but we can do more. We can order the production of tens of thousands more MLAWs, so that we can ship them to Ukraine if they need them for a start.
    Oh, indeed so - on all counts. My problem is with the people who are so bitter and twisted from coming out on the wrong side of a single democratic decision over five years ago that it twists everything they do into looking for the bad in the UK and in particular its present government. Theres enough genuine things to be upset about with that government without having to twist things - and doing so blunts the criticisms which are fair.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    Just heard the news about Shane Warne. Just 52. RIP.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Seems legit, and fascinating

    One snippet:


    “Indeed, 67% of Ukrainians said they would be willing to take up arms to defend the country against Russian troops, with a further 7% saying they were already doing so. 85% of men and 63% of women said they had already taken up arms or were willing to do so.”

    Even allowing for bravado those are incredibly high numbers. Putin has roused an entire nation of 44m people and he’s got 30 million potential soldiers taking on his army

    They will fight street by street. The only way Russia can win is by unthinkable savagery. Carpet bombing, chemical bombing, tactical nukes
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    edited March 2022
    tlg86 said:

    With a bit of luck this will do for Trump. Unlike Marine Le Pen and the SDP in Germany, he’s too dumb to understand why this is so obviously bad.

    Trump is dumb but it helps him because his supporters are too - so he relates well to them. It's a kind of vicious swirling pool of mutually resonating dumbness. He validates and reinforces theirs and they do the same back for him and his. Thus does the level rise and rise until ... well, let's see, either it overflows and washes everything away with it or somebody finds a way to pull the plug.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    Leon said:

    Seems legit, and fascinating

    One snippet:


    “Indeed, 67% of Ukrainians said they would be willing to take up arms to defend the country against Russian troops, with a further 7% saying they were already doing so. 85% of men and 63% of women said they had already taken up arms or were willing to do so.”

    Even allowing for bravado those are incredibly high numbers. Putin has roused an entire nation of 44m people and he’s got 30 million potential soldiers taking on his army

    They will fight street by street. The only way Russia can win is by unthinkable savagery. Carpet bombing, chemical bombing, tactical nukes
    Not much point in taking over a smouldering ruin of a country though.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:



    I love this concept that the EU have been much more muscular with military side of things.....the UK has been sending support for years, in particular past several months basically everything went via UK, and the training e.g. the SAS trained the SoF (who apparently have been doing extremely well against Russian VDV).

    The Germans for instance thought sending some helmets until a couple of days ago was good enough and even yesterday sent them soviet era piece of shit weapons that have been stuck in a warehouse in Eastern Germany for the past 30 odd years. They are more likely to blow up the Ukrainians trying to use them.

    I don't think the Germans missiles will actually blow up, I think they will simply make a "pssss.... klum..." noise, and fail to fire.

    There's already reports out of Ukraine that the weapons the Germans sent are "mouldy" and don't work properly or at all so have been scrapped. UK, US and Swedish weapons coming out on top at the moment according to the research people at home. Lots of pledges from European countries but not a lot arriving is the other constant theme.

    One interesting analysis (from last week, I only got to read it this morning) suggested that the US and UK should deploy special forces in Ukraine to defend nuclear power stations from any Russian attacks due to the risk of catastrophic outcomes. I feel as though that junior researcher deserves a raise.
    Do we not think that there might already be some "lost businessmen" in Ukraine?
    Potentially, but probably in a passive/training role rather than actively defending key sites.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Scott_xP said:

    I presume embarrassment at the EU's handbrake turn is whats driving a lot of this "count the sanctions" behaviour.

    Is Rotterdam still open to Russian shipping?

    Felixstowe isn't.

    Eugene Shvidler's Jet LX-FLY Landed in Farnborough, England, GB. Apx. flt. time 5 Hours : 50 Mins. https://twitter.com/RUOligarchJets/status/1499665180262817793/photo/1
    Is Rotterdam still open to Russian shipping?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    edited March 2022
    Leon said:

    Seems legit, and fascinating

    One snippet:


    “Indeed, 67% of Ukrainians said they would be willing to take up arms to defend the country against Russian troops, with a further 7% saying they were already doing so. 85% of men and 63% of women said they had already taken up arms or were willing to do so.”

    Even allowing for bravado those are incredibly high numbers. Putin has roused an entire nation of 44m people and he’s got 30 million potential soldiers taking on his army

    They will fight street by street. The only way Russia can win is by unthinkable savagery. Carpet bombing, chemical bombing, tactical nukes
    Seems to line up with

    https://ratinggroup.ua/en/research/ukraine/obschenacionalnyy_opros_ukraina_v_usloviyah_voyny_1_marta_2022.html

    which was posted the other day.

    image
    image
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:



    I love this concept that the EU have been much more muscular with military side of things.....the UK has been sending support for years, in particular past several months basically everything went via UK, and the training e.g. the SAS trained the SoF (who apparently have been doing extremely well against Russian VDV).

    The Germans for instance thought sending some helmets until a couple of days ago was good enough and even yesterday sent them soviet era piece of shit weapons that have been stuck in a warehouse in Eastern Germany for the past 30 odd years. They are more likely to blow up the Ukrainians trying to use them.

    I don't think the Germans missiles will actually blow up, I think they will simply make a "pssss.... klum..." noise, and fail to fire.

    There's already reports out of Ukraine that the weapons the Germans sent are "mouldy" and don't work properly or at all so have been scrapped. UK, US and Swedish weapons coming out on top at the moment according to the research people at home. Lots of pledges from European countries but not a lot arriving is the other constant theme.

    One interesting analysis (from last week, I only got to read it this morning) suggested that the US and UK should deploy special forces in Ukraine to defend nuclear power stations from any Russian attacks due to the risk of catastrophic outcomes. I feel as though that junior researcher deserves a raise.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/03/04/anti-aircraft-missiles-germany-offered-ukraine-dont-work/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited March 2022
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:



    I love this concept that the EU have been much more muscular with military side of things.....the UK has been sending support for years, in particular past several months basically everything went via UK, and the training e.g. the SAS trained the SoF (who apparently have been doing extremely well against Russian VDV).

    The Germans for instance thought sending some helmets until a couple of days ago was good enough and even yesterday sent them soviet era piece of shit weapons that have been stuck in a warehouse in Eastern Germany for the past 30 odd years. They are more likely to blow up the Ukrainians trying to use them.

    I don't think the Germans missiles will actually blow up, I think they will simply make a "pssss.... klum..." noise, and fail to fire.

    There's already reports out of Ukraine that the weapons the Germans sent are "mouldy" and don't work properly or at all so have been scrapped. UK, US and Swedish weapons coming out on top at the moment according to the research people at home. Lots of pledges from European countries but not a lot arriving is the other constant theme.

    One interesting analysis (from last week, I only got to read it this morning) suggested that the US and UK should deploy special forces in Ukraine to defend nuclear power stations from any Russian attacks due to the risk of catastrophic outcomes. I feel as though that junior researcher deserves a raise.
    Do we not think that there might already be some "lost businessmen" in Ukraine?
    Potentially, but probably in a passive/training role rather than actively defending key sites.
    Until yesterday, I am not sure anybody thought the Russian would be idiotic enough to start shelling a nuclear facility and firing on emergency vehicles when they arrived to try and put out the fires.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Seems legit, and fascinating

    One snippet:


    “Indeed, 67% of Ukrainians said they would be willing to take up arms to defend the country against Russian troops, with a further 7% saying they were already doing so. 85% of men and 63% of women said they had already taken up arms or were willing to do so.”

    Even allowing for bravado those are incredibly high numbers. Putin has roused an entire nation of 44m people and he’s got 30 million potential soldiers taking on his army

    They will fight street by street. The only way Russia can win is by unthinkable savagery. Carpet bombing, chemical bombing, tactical nukes
    Not much point in taking over a smouldering ruin of a country though.
    I doubt even Afghanistan had that level of potential armed resistance against the invader. Maybe the nearest example is Vietnam, where resistance was ubiquitous, and which defeated a huge imperial power, France, AND then the world’s greatest power, America. Not a great augury for Putin’s rusting army
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Seems legit, and fascinating

    One snippet:


    “Indeed, 67% of Ukrainians said they would be willing to take up arms to defend the country against Russian troops, with a further 7% saying they were already doing so. 85% of men and 63% of women said they had already taken up arms or were willing to do so.”

    Even allowing for bravado those are incredibly high numbers. Putin has roused an entire nation of 44m people and he’s got 30 million potential soldiers taking on his army

    They will fight street by street. The only way Russia can win is by unthinkable savagery. Carpet bombing, chemical bombing, tactical nukes
    Not much point in taking over a smouldering ruin of a country though.
    Chechnya.....
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    Russia has now blocked Facebook entirely.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    kinabalu said:

    Trump's initial reaction - "this is so smart, what an operator" - says everything.

    He loves a fascist strongman. Wants to be one. Just the thought thrills him.

    And he's dumb as a post.

    As a Yank former colleague of mine would say, "he couldn't pour piss out a boot if the instructions how to were written on the sole..."
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    President Zelenskiy addresses the people of…. Tbilisi, in Georgia. Remarkable.

    Ecstatic and ardent support for Ukraine

    Good to see a lot of England fans waving the flags as well. The power of the Premier League really is an asset

    https://twitter.com/mari_nikuradze/status/1499800817011994624?s=21
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    One thing to note about sanctions:

    They might be a game of good-cop bad-cop going on amongst the other mess. These guys have money, and many have power and influence, some even within the regime. Banging full sanctions immediately on all of them makes it rather difficult for us to talk to them and use their power and influence.

    It might be that some are being targeted in different ways, to different degrees, in order to divide and separate, and to show them there is potentially a way out for them. But that is dependent on their cooperation.

    Not in all cases, but I can imagine it is true for some.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,890
    edited March 2022

    Has Trump ever reverse ferreted shamelessly on an issue before, and if yes, did it dent his popularity with the MAGA faithful?

    Qtwtaiy
    Qtwtain

    Trump was booed at a rally for telling his followers to get vaccinated against Covid.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9916429/Moment-Donald-Trump-BOOED-Alabama-rally-encouraging-supporters-vaccine.html
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    In other news we had drinks with a couple of Americans from Seattle and SF last night at a rooftop bar in Oaxaca. I expected them to be extremely liberal and all about the culture war but man was I wrong. The woman from SF was so pissed off with the local politicians and she's basically leaving for Long Beach or Orange County by the end of the summer if they haven't fixed the drug and crime problems. The guy said he was fed up of "NoCal" politics seeping into Seattle and turning it into a shit hole. These are solid Dem voters, mid 30s liberals.

    The other one that surprised me was their view of COVID and how the blue states and CDC have completely fucked it by politicising vaccines and mask wearing. I mean it's a self selecting cohort because they're in Mexico where the only reason to wear a mask is to avoid a 1000 peso "fine" from a corrupt police officer, still I was pretty shocked when they said most of their friends are pretty unhappy with the continuing COVID bullshit in CA and WA.

    All in all a real learning experience for me, really surprised me that these basically left wing Dem voters were so fed up of liberal policies on crime/drugs but also on COVID they agreed with the consensus UK view that it's time to get off the train and call it.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Seems legit, and fascinating

    One snippet:


    “Indeed, 67% of Ukrainians said they would be willing to take up arms to defend the country against Russian troops, with a further 7% saying they were already doing so. 85% of men and 63% of women said they had already taken up arms or were willing to do so.”

    Even allowing for bravado those are incredibly high numbers. Putin has roused an entire nation of 44m people and he’s got 30 million potential soldiers taking on his army

    They will fight street by street. The only way Russia can win is by unthinkable savagery. Carpet bombing, chemical bombing, tactical nukes
    Not much point in taking over a smouldering ruin of a country though.
    Acts of Union says “hi”

    (only joking, sorry).
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    MaxPB said:

    It's very interesting to see on one side countries making a big deal about their sanctions of individual companies or individuals and saying that they are making a difference yet when the US and UK lock all of Russia out of capital markets, derivatives clearing, all types of reinsurance, and genuinely crippling financial measures that have forced the Moscow exchange to stay closed all week it's not enough.

    Someone from work was lamenting that the SWIFT sanctions are as useful as chocolate teapot because the EU insisted on exempting too many banks and all of the payment activity has simply moved to the unsanctioned institutions like Sberbank. On the flip side the UK and US governments have locked almost all of the Russian financial industry out of London and NYC.

    I think people are falling for the spin on sanctions coming out of Europe and see big shiny boats being impounded but don't realise that Russian industry and banking is on its knees because they simply can't pay their workers and people can't withdraw money due to sanctions implemented by the UK and US.

    People counting the number of entities sanctioned are literally as stupid as the people who didn't and still don't understand the UK's vaccine strategy, and in most cases they are the same idiots. It's simply a dumb comparison for dumb people to crow about on dumb social media to their dumb mates.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Seems legit, and fascinating

    One snippet:


    “Indeed, 67% of Ukrainians said they would be willing to take up arms to defend the country against Russian troops, with a further 7% saying they were already doing so. 85% of men and 63% of women said they had already taken up arms or were willing to do so.”

    Even allowing for bravado those are incredibly high numbers. Putin has roused an entire nation of 44m people and he’s got 30 million potential soldiers taking on his army

    They will fight street by street. The only way Russia can win is by unthinkable savagery. Carpet bombing, chemical bombing, tactical nukes
    Not much point in taking over a smouldering ruin of a country though.
    That depends on your objective. Ruining it may well be the real point.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991

    Russia has now blocked Facebook entirely.

    For once Putin done something positive.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    With a bit of luck this will do for Trump. Unlike Marine Le Pen and the SDP in Germany, he’s too dumb to understand why this is so obviously bad.

    Trump is dumb but it helps him because his supporters are too - so he relates well to them. It's a kind of vicious swirling pool of mutually resonating dumbness. He validates and reinforces theirs and they do the same back for him and his. Thus does the level rise and rise until ... well, let's see, either it overflows and washes everything away with it or somebody finds a way to pull the plug.
    Trump supporters are not the dumb working class stereotype you depict


    “It’s time to bust the myth: Most Trump voters were not working class.”


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/06/05/its-time-to-bust-the-myth-most-trump-voters-were-not-working-class/


  • darkage said:

    The thing that I don't get is - given Trumps apparent liking for Putin - why was there no rapprochment over the 4 years he was in power? It seems like relations between the US and Russia were simply frozen for all that time. Why was there no deal? Very strange. To me it reveals more about Putin than Trump.

    Putin did get a fair amount from Trump including a reasonably free hand in Syria, very little pushback on election interference and cyber-security, a shift in the attitude of Republican voters in favour of Putin and Russia, and withholding of military aid from Ukraine (as part of a plot to get Zelensky to launch a politically-motivated inquiry into Biden).

    That he didn't get more says more about the political reality that the elected Republicans leadership in Congress remained VERY sceptical of Putin's Russia (Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell and others made it pretty clear), and the efforts of Trump's babysitters and nappy-changers over four dismal years.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Seems legit, and fascinating

    One snippet:


    “Indeed, 67% of Ukrainians said they would be willing to take up arms to defend the country against Russian troops, with a further 7% saying they were already doing so. 85% of men and 63% of women said they had already taken up arms or were willing to do so.”

    Even allowing for bravado those are incredibly high numbers. Putin has roused an entire nation of 44m people and he’s got 30 million potential soldiers taking on his army

    They will fight street by street. The only way Russia can win is by unthinkable savagery. Carpet bombing, chemical bombing, tactical nukes
    Not much point in taking over a smouldering ruin of a country though.
    I doubt even Afghanistan had that level of potential armed resistance against the invader. Maybe the nearest example is Vietnam, where resistance was ubiquitous, and which defeated a huge imperial power, France, AND then the world’s greatest power, America. Not a great augury for Putin’s rusting army
    I think that Ukraine is mainly fighting for hearts and minds at the moment. But the analysis I have seen is that Russia will switch to co-ordinated heavy bombardment against which there is no effective defence and consequently the cities will fall very quickly with significant damage to property and casualties.

    At some point in the near future, it will switch from a territorial war, to a war of resistance; which Russia is very ill equipped to fight.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Seems legit, and fascinating

    One snippet:


    “Indeed, 67% of Ukrainians said they would be willing to take up arms to defend the country against Russian troops, with a further 7% saying they were already doing so. 85% of men and 63% of women said they had already taken up arms or were willing to do so.”

    Even allowing for bravado those are incredibly high numbers. Putin has roused an entire nation of 44m people and he’s got 30 million potential soldiers taking on his army

    They will fight street by street. The only way Russia can win is by unthinkable savagery. Carpet bombing, chemical bombing, tactical nukes
    Not much point in taking over a smouldering ruin of a country though.
    That depends on your objective. Ruining it may well be the real point.
    Putin: "We have to destroy Ukraine to save it!"
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    Leon said:

    President Zelenskiy addresses the people of…. Tbilisi, in Georgia. Remarkable.

    Ecstatic and ardent support for Ukraine

    Good to see a lot of England fans waving the flags as well. The power of the Premier League really is an asset

    https://twitter.com/mari_nikuradze/status/1499800817011994624?s=21

    "England flag" that's either the best and most subtle troll I've seen in ages or err...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    darkage said:

    The thing that I don't get is - given Trumps apparent liking for Putin - why was there no rapprochment over the 4 years he was in power? It seems like relations between the US and Russia were simply frozen for all that time. Why was there no deal? Very strange. To me it reveals more about Putin than Trump.

    Personally getting along won't have changed the fundamentals of the relationship I imagine. Putin in particular would know how US leadership changes with such regularity (indeed, he's keen to avoid it in his own country).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    President Zelenskiy addresses the people of…. Tbilisi, in Georgia. Remarkable.

    Ecstatic and ardent support for Ukraine

    Good to see a lot of England fans waving the flags as well. The power of the Premier League really is an asset

    https://twitter.com/mari_nikuradze/status/1499800817011994624?s=21

    "England flag" that's either the best and most subtle troll I've seen in ages or err...
    I'm going out on a limb that such a well travelled knapper has seen a few flags over the years.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561

    boulay said:


    It’s a crazy thought but if Ukraine miraculously wins they might just feel that seven years of training their army and early mass provision of weapons was more helpful to them than seizing two yachts.

    I think criticism of could the UK do more on sanctions is valid. Seizing a couple of yachts is the equivalent of when you see the US cops seize a big drugs haul. Its good for publicity and a photo op, but you haven't actually cracked the core issue.

    There were reports last night the EU are playing silly buggers with SWIFT and actually they only want bans on a limited number of Russian institutions.
    Scott_P will be along shortly to throw some light on the EU's action.

    Yeah, right.....
  • "India’s position at the HRC adds to a string of abstentions at the United Nations and multilateral groups since the start of Russian military operations in Ukraine on February 24, even as the continuing Russian military advances in Ukraine have seen more and more countries vote for resolutions that criticise Moscow . The Modi government has decided to abstain from three votes at the UN Security Council, two at the UN General Assembly in New York, two at the Human Rights Council in Geneva, and one at the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) in Vienna."

    https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/india-abstains-in-unhrc-vote-on-establishing-independent-commission-of-inquiry-on-russia-ukraine-crisis/article65190155.ece?homepage=true

    Is this not a modern reworking of Ghandi's 'passive resistance', Sunil?

    Or is Modi just sitting on the fence until he gets splinters in his arse?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    With a bit of luck this will do for Trump. Unlike Marine Le Pen and the SDP in Germany, he’s too dumb to understand why this is so obviously bad.

    Trump is dumb but it helps him because his supporters are too - so he relates well to them. It's a kind of vicious swirling pool of mutually resonating dumbness. He validates and reinforces theirs and they do the same back for him and his. Thus does the level rise and rise until ... well, let's see, either it overflows and washes everything away with it or somebody finds a way to pull the plug.
    Trump supporters are not the dumb working class stereotype you depict


    “It’s time to bust the myth: Most Trump voters were not working class.”


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/06/05/its-time-to-bust-the-myth-most-trump-voters-were-not-working-class/


    I don't think anyone really suggested they were but like all good politicians he won enough of a disaffected class of voters to win power. Just as Boris did in the Red Wall. The majority of Tory voters in 2019 were middle class, yet they also won enough working class voters to devastate Labour in key parts of the country.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    edited March 2022
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    President Zelenskiy addresses the people of…. Tbilisi, in Georgia. Remarkable.

    Ecstatic and ardent support for Ukraine

    Good to see a lot of England fans waving the flags as well. The power of the Premier League really is an asset

    https://twitter.com/mari_nikuradze/status/1499800817011994624?s=21

    "England flag" that's either the best and most subtle troll I've seen in ages or err...
    Very silly of leon, he should surely know the quintuple St George's cross - 5 times the patriotism for England!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,955
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    With a bit of luck this will do for Trump. Unlike Marine Le Pen and the SDP in Germany, he’s too dumb to understand why this is so obviously bad.

    Trump is dumb but it helps him because his supporters are too - so he relates well to them. It's a kind of vicious swirling pool of mutually resonating dumbness. He validates and reinforces theirs and they do the same back for him and his. Thus does the level rise and rise until ... well, let's see, either it overflows and washes everything away with it or somebody finds a way to pull the plug.
    Trump supporters are not the dumb working class stereotype you depict


    “It’s time to bust the myth: Most Trump voters were not working class.”


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/06/05/its-time-to-bust-the-myth-most-trump-voters-were-not-working-class/


    Golly, working class = dumb. You’re on a roll..
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    It's very interesting to see on one side countries making a big deal about their sanctions of individual companies or individuals and saying that they are making a difference yet when the US and UK lock all of Russia out of capital markets, derivatives clearing, all types of reinsurance, and genuinely crippling financial measures that have forced the Moscow exchange to stay closed all week it's not enough.

    Someone from work was lamenting that the SWIFT sanctions are as useful as chocolate teapot because the EU insisted on exempting too many banks and all of the payment activity has simply moved to the unsanctioned institutions like Sberbank. On the flip side the UK and US governments have locked almost all of the Russian financial industry out of London and NYC.

    I think people are falling for the spin on sanctions coming out of Europe and see big shiny boats being impounded but don't realise that Russian industry and banking is on its knees because they simply can't pay their workers and people can't withdraw money due to sanctions implemented by the UK and US.

    People counting the number of entities sanctioned are literally as stupid as the people who didn't and still don't understand the UK's vaccine strategy, and in most cases they are the same idiots. It's simply a dumb comparison for dumb people to crow about on dumb social media to their dumb mates.
    Yes exactly. The whole premise of the argument is stupid as fuck. How do you define a sanction, what is an “entity”, how do you add them up into “the European Union”

    Does Sainsbury’s banning Stolichnaya count as a sanction? If four supermarket chains do it is that four sanctions? If they do it to 50 brands of Russian vodka is that 200 sanctions on 50 entities, and what about the blinis?

    What a ridiculous pile of statistical drivel
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    President Zelenskiy addresses the people of…. Tbilisi, in Georgia. Remarkable.

    Ecstatic and ardent support for Ukraine

    Good to see a lot of England fans waving the flags as well. The power of the Premier League really is an asset

    https://twitter.com/mari_nikuradze/status/1499800817011994624?s=21

    "England flag" that's either the best and most subtle troll I've seen in ages or err...
    I'm going out on a limb that such a well travelled knapper has seen a few flags over the years.
    I think Leon was trying induce a catastrophic stroke for Scott. Forehead veins bulging.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    Chameleon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    President Zelenskiy addresses the people of…. Tbilisi, in Georgia. Remarkable.

    Ecstatic and ardent support for Ukraine

    Good to see a lot of England fans waving the flags as well. The power of the Premier League really is an asset

    https://twitter.com/mari_nikuradze/status/1499800817011994624?s=21

    "England flag" that's either the best and most subtle troll I've seen in ages or err...
    Very silly of leon, he should surely know the quintuple St George's cross - 5 times the patriotism for England!
    St George was NOT English!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    The single market could be collateral damage from the war in Ukraine:

    @FGoria
    HUNGARY TO BAN ALL GRAIN EXPORTS EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, RTL TELEVISION CITES HUNGARY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE - RTRS


    https://twitter.com/fgoria/status/1499810310286454787
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    Leon said:

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    It's very interesting to see on one side countries making a big deal about their sanctions of individual companies or individuals and saying that they are making a difference yet when the US and UK lock all of Russia out of capital markets, derivatives clearing, all types of reinsurance, and genuinely crippling financial measures that have forced the Moscow exchange to stay closed all week it's not enough.

    Someone from work was lamenting that the SWIFT sanctions are as useful as chocolate teapot because the EU insisted on exempting too many banks and all of the payment activity has simply moved to the unsanctioned institutions like Sberbank. On the flip side the UK and US governments have locked almost all of the Russian financial industry out of London and NYC.

    I think people are falling for the spin on sanctions coming out of Europe and see big shiny boats being impounded but don't realise that Russian industry and banking is on its knees because they simply can't pay their workers and people can't withdraw money due to sanctions implemented by the UK and US.

    People counting the number of entities sanctioned are literally as stupid as the people who didn't and still don't understand the UK's vaccine strategy, and in most cases they are the same idiots. It's simply a dumb comparison for dumb people to crow about on dumb social media to their dumb mates.
    Yes exactly. The whole premise of the argument is stupid as fuck. How do you define a sanction, what is an “entity”, how do you add them up into “the European Union”

    Does Sainsbury’s banning Stolichnaya count as a sanction? If four supermarket chains do it is that four sanctions? If they do it to 50 brands of Russian vodka is that 200 sanctions on 50 entities, and what about the blinis?

    What a ridiculous pile of statistical drivel
    Loads of countries have sanctioned members of the United Russia Party with travel bans, it's merely symbolic but gets those numbers up.
  • Leon said:

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    It's very interesting to see on one side countries making a big deal about their sanctions of individual companies or individuals and saying that they are making a difference yet when the US and UK lock all of Russia out of capital markets, derivatives clearing, all types of reinsurance, and genuinely crippling financial measures that have forced the Moscow exchange to stay closed all week it's not enough.

    Someone from work was lamenting that the SWIFT sanctions are as useful as chocolate teapot because the EU insisted on exempting too many banks and all of the payment activity has simply moved to the unsanctioned institutions like Sberbank. On the flip side the UK and US governments have locked almost all of the Russian financial industry out of London and NYC.

    I think people are falling for the spin on sanctions coming out of Europe and see big shiny boats being impounded but don't realise that Russian industry and banking is on its knees because they simply can't pay their workers and people can't withdraw money due to sanctions implemented by the UK and US.

    People counting the number of entities sanctioned are literally as stupid as the people who didn't and still don't understand the UK's vaccine strategy, and in most cases they are the same idiots. It's simply a dumb comparison for dumb people to crow about on dumb social media to their dumb mates.
    Yes exactly. The whole premise of the argument is stupid as fuck. How do you define a sanction, what is an “entity”, how do you add them up into “the European Union”

    Does Sainsbury’s banning Stolichnaya count as a sanction? If four supermarket chains do it is that four sanctions? If they do it to 50 brands of Russian vodka is that 200 sanctions on 50 entities, and what about the blinis?

    What a ridiculous pile of statistical drivel
    Especially when Europe, and Germany in particular, is STILL paying huge amounts of real money straight into Putin's pocket.

    I'm with Guy.

    @guyverhofstadt

    Putin will prevail unless we, Europeans, are willing to accept costs.

    Our addiction to his fossil fuels funds Putin's war machine.

    We need the political leadership to end ALL imports of Russian gas and oil NOW.

    https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1499779049572507651
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    The single market could be collateral damage from the war in Ukraine:

    @FGoria
    HUNGARY TO BAN ALL GRAIN EXPORTS EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, RTL TELEVISION CITES HUNGARY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE - RTRS


    https://twitter.com/fgoria/status/1499810310286454787

    Crikey. Is that because they expect worldwide grain shortages as Ukraine is levelled?

    Not good
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    edited March 2022
    Leon said:

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    It's very interesting to see on one side countries making a big deal about their sanctions of individual companies or individuals and saying that they are making a difference yet when the US and UK lock all of Russia out of capital markets, derivatives clearing, all types of reinsurance, and genuinely crippling financial measures that have forced the Moscow exchange to stay closed all week it's not enough.

    Someone from work was lamenting that the SWIFT sanctions are as useful as chocolate teapot because the EU insisted on exempting too many banks and all of the payment activity has simply moved to the unsanctioned institutions like Sberbank. On the flip side the UK and US governments have locked almost all of the Russian financial industry out of London and NYC.

    I think people are falling for the spin on sanctions coming out of Europe and see big shiny boats being impounded but don't realise that Russian industry and banking is on its knees because they simply can't pay their workers and people can't withdraw money due to sanctions implemented by the UK and US.

    People counting the number of entities sanctioned are literally as stupid as the people who didn't and still don't understand the UK's vaccine strategy, and in most cases they are the same idiots. It's simply a dumb comparison for dumb people to crow about on dumb social media to their dumb mates.
    Yes exactly. The whole premise of the argument is stupid as fuck. How do you define a sanction, what is an “entity”, how do you add them up into “the European Union”

    Does Sainsbury’s banning Stolichnaya count as a sanction? If four supermarket chains do it is that four sanctions? If they do it to 50 brands of Russian vodka is that 200 sanctions on 50 entities, and what about the blinis?

    What a ridiculous pile of statistical drivel
    A moments thought ought to make people question the comparison. 100 millionaires or 1 billionaire, which is best? It's probably not even a simple answer, is it influence or value you are looking for? One thing's for sure simply counting entities and declaring someone the winner is stupid.

    In fact to extend this further there is an optimal sanction, that is the one that pushes a powerful person to bring down Putin and end the war. I will happily sing the praises of whichever country figures that one out. Even France.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    edited March 2022
    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Seems legit, and fascinating

    One snippet:


    “Indeed, 67% of Ukrainians said they would be willing to take up arms to defend the country against Russian troops, with a further 7% saying they were already doing so. 85% of men and 63% of women said they had already taken up arms or were willing to do so.”

    Even allowing for bravado those are incredibly high numbers. Putin has roused an entire nation of 44m people and he’s got 30 million potential soldiers taking on his army

    They will fight street by street. The only way Russia can win is by unthinkable savagery. Carpet bombing, chemical bombing, tactical nukes
    Not much point in taking over a smouldering ruin of a country though.
    I doubt even Afghanistan had that level of potential armed resistance against the invader. Maybe the nearest example is Vietnam, where resistance was ubiquitous, and which defeated a huge imperial power, France, AND then the world’s greatest power, America. Not a great augury for Putin’s rusting army
    I think that Ukraine is mainly fighting for hearts and minds at the moment. But the analysis I have seen is that Russia will switch to co-ordinated heavy bombardment against which there is no effective defence and consequently the cities will fall very quickly with significant damage to property and casualties.

    At some point in the near future, it will switch from a territorial war, to a war of resistance; which Russia is very ill equipped to fight.
    Eh?
    Heavy bombardment doesn't cause cities to fall.
    It only makes defence and guerrilla activity easier.
    If Putin wants to take cities he'll have to do more than bomb them. At some stage troops need to enter.
    Stalingrad.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Chameleon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    President Zelenskiy addresses the people of…. Tbilisi, in Georgia. Remarkable.

    Ecstatic and ardent support for Ukraine

    Good to see a lot of England fans waving the flags as well. The power of the Premier League really is an asset

    https://twitter.com/mari_nikuradze/status/1499800817011994624?s=21

    "England flag" that's either the best and most subtle troll I've seen in ages or err...
    Very silly of leon, he should surely know the quintuple St George's cross - 5 times the patriotism for England!
    St George was NOT English!
    You'll be telling me he didn't really kill a dragon either.

    Though Wiki tells me Moscow claimed him as a patron saint.
  • dixiedean said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Seems legit, and fascinating

    One snippet:


    “Indeed, 67% of Ukrainians said they would be willing to take up arms to defend the country against Russian troops, with a further 7% saying they were already doing so. 85% of men and 63% of women said they had already taken up arms or were willing to do so.”

    Even allowing for bravado those are incredibly high numbers. Putin has roused an entire nation of 44m people and he’s got 30 million potential soldiers taking on his army

    They will fight street by street. The only way Russia can win is by unthinkable savagery. Carpet bombing, chemical bombing, tactical nukes
    Not much point in taking over a smouldering ruin of a country though.
    I doubt even Afghanistan had that level of potential armed resistance against the invader. Maybe the nearest example is Vietnam, where resistance was ubiquitous, and which defeated a huge imperial power, France, AND then the world’s greatest power, America. Not a great augury for Putin’s rusting army
    I think that Ukraine is mainly fighting for hearts and minds at the moment. But the analysis I have seen is that Russia will switch to co-ordinated heavy bombardment against which there is no effective defence and consequently the cities will fall very quickly with significant damage to property and casualties.

    At some point in the near future, it will switch from a territorial war, to a war of resistance; which Russia is very ill equipped to fight.
    Eh?
    Heavy bombardment doesn't cause cities to fall.
    It only makes defence and guerrilla activity easier.
    Stalingrad.
    Heavy bombardment has got somewhat deadlier over the last three quarters of a century.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:



    I love this concept that the EU have been much more muscular with military side of things.....the UK has been sending support for years, in particular past several months basically everything went via UK, and the training e.g. the SAS trained the SoF (who apparently have been doing extremely well against Russian VDV).

    The Germans for instance thought sending some helmets until a couple of days ago was good enough and even yesterday sent them soviet era piece of shit weapons that have been stuck in a warehouse in Eastern Germany for the past 30 odd years. They are more likely to blow up the Ukrainians trying to use them.

    I don't think the Germans missiles will actually blow up, I think they will simply make a "pssss.... klum..." noise, and fail to fire.

    There's already reports out of Ukraine that the weapons the Germans sent are "mouldy" and don't work properly or at all so have been scrapped. UK, US and Swedish weapons coming out on top at the moment according to the research people at home. Lots of pledges from European countries but not a lot arriving is the other constant theme.

    One interesting analysis (from last week, I only got to read it this morning) suggested that the US and UK should deploy special forces in Ukraine to defend nuclear power stations from any Russian attacks due to the risk of catastrophic outcomes. I feel as though that junior researcher deserves a raise.
    Do we not think that there might already be some "lost businessmen" in Ukraine?
    I'm as sure as it's possible for a complete layman to be that there will be agents on the ground, but there won't be any troops, even in civvies. Firstly what could they do to protect these installations from massed armoured formations of the Russian army? Secondly, as has been frequently emphasised throughout this conflict, any direct confrontations between NATO and Russian forces is to be avoided at all costs.

    Speaking more generally of intelligence services, what do we all make of the reports that repeated attempts on the life of President Zelenskyy have been thwarted, in part, by leaks from within the FSB? It has also been suggested that much of the Western security services' very detailed knowledge of the Russian invasion operation has come from FSB sources, i.e. that the organisation is leaking like a sieve. One therefore wonders how much opposition to Putin exists within the organs of the Russian state itself?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    It's very interesting to see on one side countries making a big deal about their sanctions of individual companies or individuals and saying that they are making a difference yet when the US and UK lock all of Russia out of capital markets, derivatives clearing, all types of reinsurance, and genuinely crippling financial measures that have forced the Moscow exchange to stay closed all week it's not enough.

    Someone from work was lamenting that the SWIFT sanctions are as useful as chocolate teapot because the EU insisted on exempting too many banks and all of the payment activity has simply moved to the unsanctioned institutions like Sberbank. On the flip side the UK and US governments have locked almost all of the Russian financial industry out of London and NYC.

    I think people are falling for the spin on sanctions coming out of Europe and see big shiny boats being impounded but don't realise that Russian industry and banking is on its knees because they simply can't pay their workers and people can't withdraw money due to sanctions implemented by the UK and US.

    People counting the number of entities sanctioned are literally as stupid as the people who didn't and still don't understand the UK's vaccine strategy, and in most cases they are the same idiots. It's simply a dumb comparison for dumb people to crow about on dumb social media to their dumb mates.
    Yes exactly. The whole premise of the argument is stupid as fuck. How do you define a sanction, what is an “entity”, how do you add them up into “the European Union”

    Does Sainsbury’s banning Stolichnaya count as a sanction? If four supermarket chains do it is that four sanctions? If they do it to 50 brands of Russian vodka is that 200 sanctions on 50 entities, and what about the blinis?

    What a ridiculous pile of statistical drivel
    Loads of countries have sanctioned members of the United Russia Party with travel bans, it's merely symbolic but gets those numbers up.
    Haven't some countries sanctioned every Deputy in the Duma that voted for the war? Is that useful? Maybe, but also possibly not at all.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited March 2022
    Leon said:

    The single market could be collateral damage from the war in Ukraine:

    @FGoria
    HUNGARY TO BAN ALL GRAIN EXPORTS EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, RTL TELEVISION CITES HUNGARY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE - RTRS


    https://twitter.com/fgoria/status/1499810310286454787

    Crikey. Is that because they expect worldwide grain shortages as Ukraine is levelled?

    Not good
    From memory, Russia and Ukraine are the world’s number 1 and number 2 grain exporters.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    It's very interesting to see on one side countries making a big deal about their sanctions of individual companies or individuals and saying that they are making a difference yet when the US and UK lock all of Russia out of capital markets, derivatives clearing, all types of reinsurance, and genuinely crippling financial measures that have forced the Moscow exchange to stay closed all week it's not enough.

    Someone from work was lamenting that the SWIFT sanctions are as useful as chocolate teapot because the EU insisted on exempting too many banks and all of the payment activity has simply moved to the unsanctioned institutions like Sberbank. On the flip side the UK and US governments have locked almost all of the Russian financial industry out of London and NYC.

    I think people are falling for the spin on sanctions coming out of Europe and see big shiny boats being impounded but don't realise that Russian industry and banking is on its knees because they simply can't pay their workers and people can't withdraw money due to sanctions implemented by the UK and US.

    People counting the number of entities sanctioned are literally as stupid as the people who didn't and still don't understand the UK's vaccine strategy, and in most cases they are the same idiots. It's simply a dumb comparison for dumb people to crow about on dumb social media to their dumb mates.
    Yes exactly. The whole premise of the argument is stupid as fuck. How do you define a sanction, what is an “entity”, how do you add them up into “the European Union”

    Does Sainsbury’s banning Stolichnaya count as a sanction? If four supermarket chains do it is that four sanctions? If they do it to 50 brands of Russian vodka is that 200 sanctions on 50 entities, and what about the blinis?

    What a ridiculous pile of statistical drivel
    Loads of countries have sanctioned members of the United Russia Party with travel bans, it's merely symbolic but gets those numbers up.
    Haven't some countries sanctioned every Deputy in the Duma that voted for the war? Is that useful? Maybe, but also possibly not at all.
    Yeah, it's just names on a sheet of paper. Of no importance in terms of bringing the Putin regime down.
This discussion has been closed.