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Johnson’s relaxation of English COVID rules is not polling well – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,049
edited March 2022 in General
imageJohnson’s relaxation of English COVID rules is not polling well – politicalbetting.com

The above YouGov polling highlights a gamble that Boris Johnson is taking with the relaxation of the COVID rules in England. What is interesting is that north of the border Nicola Sturgeon is continuing to keep her rules in place and this offers a possible comparison.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Russia now announces it's evacuating its diplomatic personnel from its embassy in Kyiv and consulates in Kharkiv, Lviv, and Odesa.

    Ostensibly this is because of Ukrainian threats – rather than the enormous Russian troop buildup that prompted western countries to evacuate.


    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1496178781219926022?s=21
  • I did predict this yesterday but even so, it is the right thing to do
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,706
    edited February 2022
    2nd

    Off Topic

    I've just had an email from my energy provider telling me that my energy bill will rise by 50% a month. This coupled with BT, Sky and Poll Tax rises is going to be very tough. I suspect the I'll have to find another £100 per month from our pensions. Very tough.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,174
    Compared with other relaxations of the rules, I think that is polling a tad better.

    But compared to PB, where it has been broadly welcomed, I think, it maybe polled a tad worse than I expected.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    2nd

    Off Topic

    I've just had an email from my energy provider telling me that my energy bill will rise by 50% a month. This coupled with BT, Sky and Poll Tax rises is going to be very tough. I suspect the I'll have to find another £100 per month from our pensions. Very tough.

    And has that influenced your voting preference at all?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987
    Weren't people opposed to relaxing in the summer too? It's a measure of showing if you are taking things 'seriously' (like people suggesting no covid measures should ever be repealed), if things then turn out well people won't hold it against the government.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,174

    2nd

    Off Topic

    I've just had an email from my energy provider telling me that my energy bill will rise by 50% a month. This coupled with BT, Sky and Poll Tax rises is going to be very tough. I suspect the I'll have to find another £100 per month from our pensions. Very tough.

    I'm wondering (sans Smart meter, but likely to go that way) whether to send an ad hoc reading at the requisite moment to get more kWH at the lower rate.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332
    The case for relaxation is in the data and it is compelling. Why Scotland has decided to damage our economy for another 4 weeks is, frankly, rather more mysterious.
    As people see the current trends in hospitalisations and deaths continue the polling will change. I think its called leadership.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,429
    kle4 said:

    Weren't people opposed to relaxing in the summer too? It's a measure of showing if you are taking things 'seriously' (like people suggesting no covid measures should ever be repealed), if things then turn out well people won't hold it against the government.

    Yes - the question will be really decided by future events. If cases, hospital admissions and deaths continue to fall....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,649
    I've got a new idea.

    Every time somebody test positive for Covid, Boris Johnson and the No. 10 Staff isolate.

    This will mean they can't come out with more useless BS to damage the country.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,174
    DavidL said:

    The case for relaxation is in the data and it is compelling. Why Scotland has decided to damage our economy for another 4 weeks is, frankly, rather more mysterious.
    As people see the current trends in hospitalisations and deaths continue the polling will change. I think its called leadership.

    Scotland got a case rate bump from the previous relaxations and is a bit behind England now in bringing cases down.
  • Isn’t the question slightly misleading? All that’s changed is the legal requirement to self-isolate, it’s still guidance - in line with Scotland, which oddly enough has had legal requirements over mask wearing, but not self isolation.
  • Pro_Rata said:

    2nd

    Off Topic

    I've just had an email from my energy provider telling me that my energy bill will rise by 50% a month. This coupled with BT, Sky and Poll Tax rises is going to be very tough. I suspect the I'll have to find another £100 per month from our pensions. Very tough.

    I'm wondering (sans Smart meter, but likely to go that way) whether to send an ad hoc reading at the requisite moment to get more kWH at the lower rate.
    tempting, but I suspect that could be fraudulent.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332

    kle4 said:

    Weren't people opposed to relaxing in the summer too? It's a measure of showing if you are taking things 'seriously' (like people suggesting no covid measures should ever be repealed), if things then turn out well people won't hold it against the government.

    Yes - the question will be really decided by future events. If cases, hospital admissions and deaths continue to fall....
    The fall in cases may well pause a bit. But when 95 year olds can carry on with "light duties" its pretty hard to see what the problem is for all but the very most vulnerable or the idiots who chose not to be vaccinated.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,429
    Pro_Rata said:

    DavidL said:

    The case for relaxation is in the data and it is compelling. Why Scotland has decided to damage our economy for another 4 weeks is, frankly, rather more mysterious.
    As people see the current trends in hospitalisations and deaths continue the polling will change. I think its called leadership.

    Scotland got a case rate bump from the previous relaxations and is a bit behind England now in bringing cases down.
    Not sure that was from the last relaxation....

    image
  • MISTY said:

    2nd

    Off Topic

    I've just had an email from my energy provider telling me that my energy bill will rise by 50% a month. This coupled with BT, Sky and Poll Tax rises is going to be very tough. I suspect the I'll have to find another £100 per month from our pensions. Very tough.

    And has that influenced your voting preference at all?
    Not really, i always vote LibDem so it was obviously not their fault..

    :smiley:
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332
    Pro_Rata said:

    DavidL said:

    The case for relaxation is in the data and it is compelling. Why Scotland has decided to damage our economy for another 4 weeks is, frankly, rather more mysterious.
    As people see the current trends in hospitalisations and deaths continue the polling will change. I think its called leadership.

    Scotland got a case rate bump from the previous relaxations and is a bit behind England now in bringing cases down.
    Yes, but that does not seem to be doing anything material in the hospital/death figures. The country (the UK) is broke. We need to get properly back to work. Now.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,429
    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Weren't people opposed to relaxing in the summer too? It's a measure of showing if you are taking things 'seriously' (like people suggesting no covid measures should ever be repealed), if things then turn out well people won't hold it against the government.

    Yes - the question will be really decided by future events. If cases, hospital admissions and deaths continue to fall....
    The fall in cases may well pause a bit. But when 95 year olds can carry on with "light duties" its pretty hard to see what the problem is for all but the very most vulnerable or the idiots who chose not to be vaccinated.
    Given the activity levels I have seen out and and about, the remaining restrictions are not "worth" 0.2 in R (which is quite a lot in terms of R reduction due to changed behaviour).
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,478
    DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    DavidL said:

    The case for relaxation is in the data and it is compelling. Why Scotland has decided to damage our economy for another 4 weeks is, frankly, rather more mysterious.
    As people see the current trends in hospitalisations and deaths continue the polling will change. I think its called leadership.

    Scotland got a case rate bump from the previous relaxations and is a bit behind England now in bringing cases down.
    Yes, but that does not seem to be doing anything material in the hospital/death figures. The country (the UK) is broke. We need to get properly back to work. Now.
    Mrs J started back at the office today, working there three days a week, two days wfh. Pre-pandemic, she was one day wfh. She;s looking forward to seeing people, but not looking forward to the commute...
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Oh, Mr. Eagles. "of"?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,271
    edited February 2022
    I'd like to make a distinction between 'restrictions' in general and the need to self-isolate in particular. While I'm in favour of all restrictions being lifted, I'm opposed to lifting the requirement (legal or guidance, I don't care) to self isolate if tested positive. I don't regard it as a 'restriction' to apply common sense and avoid contact with others if you're carrying a highly transmissible disease that could, still, result in very serious illness or death to others.
  • Applicant said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Oh, Mr. Eagles. "of"?
    I hate using voice to text apps.

    They hate my working class Yorkshire accent.
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,625
    When polled there are a sizeable minority who would happily keeps restrictions forever.

    Are we now living in an era where we decide what is the right and wrong thing to do based on polling ?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    edited February 2022

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Money talks - and very wealthy Russians have thrown a hell of a lot of it at the Conservative party over recent years. Now it's payback time.

    Even the EU's sanctions are tougher than ours. After all the tough talk, the reality is that the UK government has done the bare minimum. And those who may be targeted further down the line have been given the time and space to move their assets elsewhere.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Boris described this as a barrage. To keep the analogy going this looks more like a warning shot but a barrage gives him more options when (as it seems inevitable) the next escalation comes. Bit odd he seemed to think that Abramovitch was already sanctioned. Maybe 20 points deducted from Chelsea would do the trick?

    The Nord 2 suspension is by far the most material sanction to date, for all our criticism of Germany's mealy mouth to date.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,032

    I'd like to make a distinction between 'restrictions' in general and the need to self-isolate in particular. While I'm in favour of all restrictions being lifted, I'm opposed to lifting the requirement (legal or guidance, I don't care) to self isolate if tested positive. I don't regard it as a 'restriction' to apply common sense and avoid contact with others if you're carrying a highly transmissible disease that could, still, result in very serious illness or death to others.

    Well yes. But there are a lot of things which it is sensible and desirable to do which are not, and should not, be mandated by law.
    Do we want infectious people to keep themselves away from the rest of society? Of course. Do we want to criminalise those who do not? I would argue not.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987

    Pro_Rata said:

    2nd

    Off Topic

    I've just had an email from my energy provider telling me that my energy bill will rise by 50% a month. This coupled with BT, Sky and Poll Tax rises is going to be very tough. I suspect the I'll have to find another £100 per month from our pensions. Very tough.

    I'm wondering (sans Smart meter, but likely to go that way) whether to send an ad hoc reading at the requisite moment to get more kWH at the lower rate.
    tempting, but I suspect that could be fraudulent.
    Something the Tories never said when a donor came knocking.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,553
    edited February 2022
    DavidL said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Boris described this as a barrage. To keep the analogy going this looks more like a warning shot but a barrage gives him more options when (as it seems inevitable) the next escalation comes. Bit odd he seemed to think that Abramovitch was already sanctioned. Maybe 20 points deducted from Chelsea would do the trick?

    The Nord 2 suspension is by far the most material sanction to date, for all our criticism of Germany's mealy mouth to date.
    Yup, the Germans dropped an A bomb, we fired an empty water pistol.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    DavidL said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Boris described this as a barrage. To keep the analogy going this looks more like a warning shot but a barrage gives him more options when (as it seems inevitable) the next escalation comes. Bit odd he seemed to think that Abramovitch was already sanctioned. Maybe 20 points deducted from Chelsea would do the trick?

    The Nord 2 suspension is by far the most material sanction to date, for all our criticism of Germany's mealy mouth to date.
    I'm not sure Putin really cares about sanctions.

    He is gambling that the West has become so squeamish and weak it will never, ever put forces into the field against him.

    I am not sure he is wrong.

    Is there a line in the sand? if so, where the f8ck is it?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,500

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well have not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    There's a balance to be struck. The problem with that balance is that the big stick you're prepared to use being held back looks like a rather dismal frozen fish.

    Different sticks..

    Invite Ukrane into NATO, evict ALL Russian citizens, freeze all Russian accounts. Close all borders. Carefully disengage from the ISS. That's the small stick.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,783

    Applicant said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Oh, Mr. Eagles. "of"?
    I hate using voice to text apps.

    They hate my working class Yorkshire accent.
    'uv' ?
    Somehow I knew it was the app to blame.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,429
    DavidL said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Boris described this as a barrage. To keep the analogy going this looks more like a warning shot but a barrage gives him more options when (as it seems inevitable) the next escalation comes. Bit odd he seemed to think that Abramovitch was already sanctioned. Maybe 20 points deducted from Chelsea would do the trick?

    The Nord 2 suspension is by far the most material sanction to date, for all our criticism of Germany's mealy mouth to date.
    A barrage implies a continuous firing over a period of time.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,271
    Cookie said:

    I'd like to make a distinction between 'restrictions' in general and the need to self-isolate in particular. While I'm in favour of all restrictions being lifted, I'm opposed to lifting the requirement (legal or guidance, I don't care) to self isolate if tested positive. I don't regard it as a 'restriction' to apply common sense and avoid contact with others if you're carrying a highly transmissible disease that could, still, result in very serious illness or death to others.

    Well yes. But there are a lot of things which it is sensible and desirable to do which are not, and should not, be mandated by law.
    Do we want infectious people to keep themselves away from the rest of society? Of course. Do we want to criminalise those who do not? I would argue not.
    A careful reading of my post would tell you I don't disagree with you.

    However, the rhetoric now, as shown in the You Gov polling question, is that "there's no need to self isolate if you test positive". I disagree and think there is a need. I don't think it should be criminalised, however. But I do think that some people need, and should be given, financial support to self isolate. That's going.
  • DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    DavidL said:

    The case for relaxation is in the data and it is compelling. Why Scotland has decided to damage our economy for another 4 weeks is, frankly, rather more mysterious.
    As people see the current trends in hospitalisations and deaths continue the polling will change. I think its called leadership.

    Scotland got a case rate bump from the previous relaxations and is a bit behind England now in bringing cases down.
    Yes, but that does not seem to be doing anything material in the hospital/death figures. The country (the UK) is broke. We need to get properly back to work. Now.
    And if you’ve got a bit of a cough, just man up and get yer arse into the office.
    Normal service resumed.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332

    DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    DavidL said:

    The case for relaxation is in the data and it is compelling. Why Scotland has decided to damage our economy for another 4 weeks is, frankly, rather more mysterious.
    As people see the current trends in hospitalisations and deaths continue the polling will change. I think its called leadership.

    Scotland got a case rate bump from the previous relaxations and is a bit behind England now in bringing cases down.
    Yes, but that does not seem to be doing anything material in the hospital/death figures. The country (the UK) is broke. We need to get properly back to work. Now.
    Mrs J started back at the office today, working there three days a week, two days wfh. Pre-pandemic, she was one day wfh. She;s looking forward to seeing people, but not looking forward to the commute...
    We did a survey of our staff about returning to the office. That was exactly what we found too. Interestingly, several of our clerks maintained that they were far more productive at home when bored advocates couldn't wonder along and take up their time with a "chat".

    I finished a trial in Aberdeen today with a jury on the wonderwall, hearing all the evidence at a cinema. I am hoping that does not last too long although I am told that the courts, contrary to expectations, are finding a slightly higher conviction rate from Juries not actually in the court room. Today added to that statistic.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,611

    Applicant said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Oh, Mr. Eagles. "of"?
    I hate using voice to text apps.

    They hate my working class Yorkshire accent.
    There's an out wrong we voice tut text.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,251
    edited February 2022
    @DavidL

    "Maybe 20 points deducted from Chelsea would do the trick?"

    That would immediately add 20 points to the PM's approval rating.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,511

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well have not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    I couldn’t believe they are only getting around tk sanctioning Bank Rossiya now. It’s been known as the FSB Bank and Putin’s Piggybank for at least 15 years!

    One wonders if the national security wing of the party will look today and finally think, yup this dude’s gotta go.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,429
    edited February 2022
    Omnium said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well have not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    There's a balance to be struck. The problem with that balance is that the big stick you're prepared to use being held back looks like a rather dismal frozen fish.

    Different sticks..

    Invite Ukrane into NATO, evict ALL Russian citizens, freeze all Russian accounts. Close all borders. Carefully disengage from the ISS. That's the small stick.
    "Invite Ukrane into NATO" - if proposed would be vetoed by various members.

    "evict ALL Russian citizens, freeze all Russian accounts" - dissidents, opposition?

    "Carefully disengage from the ISS" - can't be done. Not in timescale of less than years, and the station only has a few years left.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332
    MISTY said:

    DavidL said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Boris described this as a barrage. To keep the analogy going this looks more like a warning shot but a barrage gives him more options when (as it seems inevitable) the next escalation comes. Bit odd he seemed to think that Abramovitch was already sanctioned. Maybe 20 points deducted from Chelsea would do the trick?

    The Nord 2 suspension is by far the most material sanction to date, for all our criticism of Germany's mealy mouth to date.
    I'm not sure Putin really cares about sanctions.

    He is gambling that the West has become so squeamish and weak it will never, ever put forces into the field against him.

    I am not sure he is wrong.

    Is there a line in the sand? if so, where the f8ck is it?
    Well, the obvious one is any country already in NATO. But I agree that he does not seem that bothered about sanctions.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369

    DavidL said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Boris described this as a barrage. To keep the analogy going this looks more like a warning shot but a barrage gives him more options when (as it seems inevitable) the next escalation comes. Bit odd he seemed to think that Abramovitch was already sanctioned. Maybe 20 points deducted from Chelsea would do the trick?

    The Nord 2 suspension is by far the most material sanction to date, for all our criticism of Germany's mealy mouth to date.
    Yup, the Germans dropped an A bomb, we fired an empty water pistol.
    Or we fired a sniper shot. Then another but nobody on the other side knows who is the next target.

    Problem with using up your ammunition in the first engagement is that the enemy know you have nothing left so you become irrelevant.

    But death by a thousand cuts cranks up the pressure.

    Having said that I don’t think Boris would have done this on purpose but stumbled into it like Covid successes.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,429

    DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    DavidL said:

    The case for relaxation is in the data and it is compelling. Why Scotland has decided to damage our economy for another 4 weeks is, frankly, rather more mysterious.
    As people see the current trends in hospitalisations and deaths continue the polling will change. I think its called leadership.

    Scotland got a case rate bump from the previous relaxations and is a bit behind England now in bringing cases down.
    Yes, but that does not seem to be doing anything material in the hospital/death figures. The country (the UK) is broke. We need to get properly back to work. Now.
    And if you’ve got a bit of a cough, just man up and get yer arse into the office.
    Normal service resumed.
    Why are you channeling @malcolmg ?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332

    DavidL said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Boris described this as a barrage. To keep the analogy going this looks more like a warning shot but a barrage gives him more options when (as it seems inevitable) the next escalation comes. Bit odd he seemed to think that Abramovitch was already sanctioned. Maybe 20 points deducted from Chelsea would do the trick?

    The Nord 2 suspension is by far the most material sanction to date, for all our criticism of Germany's mealy mouth to date.
    Yup, the Germans dropped an A bomb, we fired an empty water pistol.
    They dropped that bomb with 2 arms and a leg being firmly held in an uncomfortable place by the US. I am pretty sure they would not have done it on their own accord.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,119
    MISTY said:

    DavidL said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Boris described this as a barrage. To keep the analogy going this looks more like a warning shot but a barrage gives him more options when (as it seems inevitable) the next escalation comes. Bit odd he seemed to think that Abramovitch was already sanctioned. Maybe 20 points deducted from Chelsea would do the trick?

    The Nord 2 suspension is by far the most material sanction to date, for all our criticism of Germany's mealy mouth to date.
    I'm not sure Putin really cares about sanctions.

    He is gambling that the West has become so squeamish and weak it will never, ever put forces into the field against him.

    I am not sure he is wrong.

    Is there a line in the sand? if so, where the f8ck is it?
    Evan Davis had a Russian politician on the radio earlier, parroting all the usual propaganda about NATO aggression and Ukraine ignoring the heartfelt wishes of the Donetsk and Luhansk republics. He seemed to find the whole thing mildly amusing, like it's some kind of game. Including the sanctions.

    It makes me much more furious than I ought to allow when politicians so brazenly lie and seem to be convinced by their own lies. I still have this desire to see them persuaded by the evidence and change their minds, as if their minds are open in the first place. They have no such qualms. It's so irritating.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,271
    edited February 2022
    moonshine said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well have not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    I couldn’t believe they are only getting around tk sanctioning Bank Rossiya now. It’s been known as the FSB Bank and Putin’s Piggybank for at least 15 years!

    One wonders if the national security wing of the party will look today and finally think, yup this dude’s gotta go.
    It's a funny old world when it looks as if the Labour Party would be tougher on Russia in respect of sanctions than the Tories.

    But that's where we are: I reckon Starmer would have been tougher than Johnson, and would have handled the crisis better all round. Bad news for Tories, I think.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,886
    Omnium said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well have not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    There's a balance to be struck. The problem with that balance is that the big stick you're prepared to use being held back looks like a rather dismal frozen fish.

    Different sticks..

    Invite Ukrane into NATO, evict ALL Russian citizens, freeze all Russian accounts. Close all borders. Carefully disengage from the ISS. That's the small stick.
    We can't invite Ukraine into NATO without rewriting all the rules.

    Entrance is by consensus, and requires aiui that there be no territorial disputes in the new member. What would Germany and France do if faced with that request?

    Despite sanctions being more firm than some of us may have been expecting, I'm not sure about NATO entry.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332

    DavidL said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Boris described this as a barrage. To keep the analogy going this looks more like a warning shot but a barrage gives him more options when (as it seems inevitable) the next escalation comes. Bit odd he seemed to think that Abramovitch was already sanctioned. Maybe 20 points deducted from Chelsea would do the trick?

    The Nord 2 suspension is by far the most material sanction to date, for all our criticism of Germany's mealy mouth to date.
    A barrage implies a continuous firing over a period of time.
    I have no doubt that there will be further provocations to respond to tomorrow.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 5,907
    So after the usual suspects were busy prematurely criticizing the EU for what sanctions they would bring in it turns out that the rhetoric from Bozo didn’t match the sanctions and the EU have gone much further and Germany have suspended Nord stream 2.

  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    DavidL said:

    MISTY said:

    DavidL said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Boris described this as a barrage. To keep the analogy going this looks more like a warning shot but a barrage gives him more options when (as it seems inevitable) the next escalation comes. Bit odd he seemed to think that Abramovitch was already sanctioned. Maybe 20 points deducted from Chelsea would do the trick?

    The Nord 2 suspension is by far the most material sanction to date, for all our criticism of Germany's mealy mouth to date.
    I'm not sure Putin really cares about sanctions.

    He is gambling that the West has become so squeamish and weak it will never, ever put forces into the field against him.

    I am not sure he is wrong.

    Is there a line in the sand? if so, where the f8ck is it?
    Well, the obvious one is any country already in NATO. But I agree that he does not seem that bothered about sanctions.
    If Putin can grab a massive tract of territory quickly, he can negotiate from a position of strength anyway. Sanctions are meaningless in that scenario.

    The West's strategic failure is massive. Its has cowed its populations with fears about climate and covid, beggared its economies responding to both and failed utterly to identify more urgent threats.

    Where are the soldiers coming from to halt Putin's advance. Because I am sorry, I don't see them. I don't see them anywhere.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,611
    edited February 2022

    DavidL said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Boris described this as a barrage. To keep the analogy going this looks more like a warning shot but a barrage gives him more options when (as it seems inevitable) the next escalation comes. Bit odd he seemed to think that Abramovitch was already sanctioned. Maybe 20 points deducted from Chelsea would do the trick?

    The Nord 2 suspension is by far the most material sanction to date, for all our criticism of Germany's mealy mouth to date.
    Yup, the Germans dropped an A bomb, we fired an empty water pistol.
    Nord Stream 1 is still operational and Germany will continue to be the biggest purchaser of Russian gas.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,369
    Slight problem with this poll — it's GB polling for an England-only decision. 46% of those giving an opinion are in favour but it may be over 50% in England.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,500

    Omnium said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well have not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    There's a balance to be struck. The problem with that balance is that the big stick you're prepared to use being held back looks like a rather dismal frozen fish.

    Different sticks..

    Invite Ukrane into NATO, evict ALL Russian citizens, freeze all Russian accounts. Close all borders. Carefully disengage from the ISS. That's the small stick.
    "Invite Ukrane into NATO" - if proposed would be vetoed by various members.

    "evict ALL Russian citizens, freeze all Russian accounts" - dissidents, opposition?

    "Carefully disengage from the ISS" - can't be done. Not in timescale of less than years, and the station only has a few years left.
    Mr M, I'm not really making policy here.

    Inviting Ukrane into NATO would almost be a declaration of war after all. I'd nearly just about do it, I think.

    All Russians are responsible for Russia. Anyone that has asylum would be treated differently.

    ISS: Of course it can be done!

    The FO has somehow recommended a really woeful package though.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    DavidL said:

    The case for relaxation is in the data and it is compelling. Why Scotland has decided to damage our economy for another 4 weeks is, frankly, rather more mysterious.
    As people see the current trends in hospitalisations and deaths continue the polling will change. I think its called leadership.

    Scotland got a case rate bump from the previous relaxations and is a bit behind England now in bringing cases down.
    Yes, but that does not seem to be doing anything material in the hospital/death figures. The country (the UK) is broke. We need to get properly back to work. Now.
    Mrs J started back at the office today, working there three days a week, two days wfh. Pre-pandemic, she was one day wfh. She;s looking forward to seeing people, but not looking forward to the commute...
    We did a survey of our staff about returning to the office. That was exactly what we found too. Interestingly, several of our clerks maintained that they were far more productive at home when bored advocates couldn't wonder along and take up their time with a "chat".

    I finished a trial in Aberdeen today with a jury on the wonderwall, hearing all the evidence at a cinema. I am hoping that does not last too long although I am told that the courts, contrary to expectations, are finding a slightly higher conviction rate from Juries not actually in the court room. Today added to that statistic.
    I think (no pun intended ) the jury is out on whether wfh is more efficient or less efficient . Personally speaking starting a new job in Jan was no fun at all wfh and so 6 week later I still have no sense of being in the new role or any affinity with the organisation. i also found the stuff you always have to adjust to at a new job (IT , org structure , tips on how files are stored etc ) are a lot harder to get up to speed. I find there are more delays in getting queries answered by any big firm whihc must be related to wfh even if only communication problems (ie you just cannot lean over the shoulder of a colleague and sort simple stuff out) .
    But even if more efficient , wfh is a lot more depressing to me , if life is supposed to evolve to get better I am not sure everyone stuck in their houses all day all week is an human advance
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,886
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    DavidL said:

    The case for relaxation is in the data and it is compelling. Why Scotland has decided to damage our economy for another 4 weeks is, frankly, rather more mysterious.
    As people see the current trends in hospitalisations and deaths continue the polling will change. I think its called leadership.

    Scotland got a case rate bump from the previous relaxations and is a bit behind England now in bringing cases down.
    Yes, but that does not seem to be doing anything material in the hospital/death figures. The country (the UK) is broke. We need to get properly back to work. Now.
    Mrs J started back at the office today, working there three days a week, two days wfh. Pre-pandemic, she was one day wfh. She;s looking forward to seeing people, but not looking forward to the commute...
    We did a survey of our staff about returning to the office. That was exactly what we found too. Interestingly, several of our clerks maintained that they were far more productive at home when bored advocates couldn't wonder along and take up their time with a "chat".
    Lawyers talking too much?

    Whodathunkit ? :smile:
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,796
    So far Johnson's hit Putin's golf partner, his masseuse and his shoe repairer.

    That's got to hurt
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332
    MattW said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    DavidL said:

    The case for relaxation is in the data and it is compelling. Why Scotland has decided to damage our economy for another 4 weeks is, frankly, rather more mysterious.
    As people see the current trends in hospitalisations and deaths continue the polling will change. I think its called leadership.

    Scotland got a case rate bump from the previous relaxations and is a bit behind England now in bringing cases down.
    Yes, but that does not seem to be doing anything material in the hospital/death figures. The country (the UK) is broke. We need to get properly back to work. Now.
    Mrs J started back at the office today, working there three days a week, two days wfh. Pre-pandemic, she was one day wfh. She;s looking forward to seeing people, but not looking forward to the commute...
    We did a survey of our staff about returning to the office. That was exactly what we found too. Interestingly, several of our clerks maintained that they were far more productive at home when bored advocates couldn't wonder along and take up their time with a "chat".
    Lawyers talking too much?

    Whodathunkit ? :smile:
    The incredible thing is lawyers talking without getting paid for it. It's unprofessional!
  • nico679 said:

    So after the usual suspects were busy prematurely criticizing the EU for what sanctions they would bring in it turns out that the rhetoric from Bozo didn’t match the sanctions and the EU have gone much further and Germany have suspended Nord stream 2.

    Biden made it clear to the German Chancellor that he would end Nordstream 2 in a very public speech with the Chancellor beside him and so it has come to pass
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,119

    Omnium said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well have not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    There's a balance to be struck. The problem with that balance is that the big stick you're prepared to use being held back looks like a rather dismal frozen fish.

    Different sticks..

    Invite Ukrane into NATO, evict ALL Russian citizens, freeze all Russian accounts. Close all borders. Carefully disengage from the ISS. That's the small stick.
    "Invite Ukrane into NATO" - if proposed would be vetoed by various members.

    "evict ALL Russian citizens, freeze all Russian accounts" - dissidents, opposition?

    "Carefully disengage from the ISS" - can't be done. Not in timescale of less than years, and the station only has a few years left.
    Sadly I expect the only effective long term plan is also a hideous one: arm and fund resistance in Ukraine for the next 20 years and turn this into a Russian Iraq. Putin is at the Blair 2002 stage in foreign affairs: He believes he can never lose, because he's scored a series of almost unopposed victories. There hasn't been a strategic military failure since the 1990s. Plenty of strategic economic and PR failure, and loss of hearts and minds of course, but nothing like an Iraq or Afghanistan to trim his ambitions.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987
    DavidL said:

    MattW said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    DavidL said:

    The case for relaxation is in the data and it is compelling. Why Scotland has decided to damage our economy for another 4 weeks is, frankly, rather more mysterious.
    As people see the current trends in hospitalisations and deaths continue the polling will change. I think its called leadership.

    Scotland got a case rate bump from the previous relaxations and is a bit behind England now in bringing cases down.
    Yes, but that does not seem to be doing anything material in the hospital/death figures. The country (the UK) is broke. We need to get properly back to work. Now.
    Mrs J started back at the office today, working there three days a week, two days wfh. Pre-pandemic, she was one day wfh. She;s looking forward to seeing people, but not looking forward to the commute...
    We did a survey of our staff about returning to the office. That was exactly what we found too. Interestingly, several of our clerks maintained that they were far more productive at home when bored advocates couldn't wonder along and take up their time with a "chat".
    Lawyers talking too much?

    Whodathunkit ? :smile:
    The incredible thing is lawyers talking without getting paid for it. It's unprofessional!
    You pay them to start talking, and they like it so much then you have to pay them to stop.
  • nico679 said:

    So after the usual suspects were busy prematurely criticizing the EU for what sanctions they would bring in it turns out that the rhetoric from Bozo didn’t match the sanctions and the EU have gone much further and Germany have suspended Nord stream 2.

    The Boche are addicted to cheap Russian gas, they’ll never give it up.

    Germany suspends Nord Stream 2

    THEY ONLY DID BECAUSE THEY WERE FORCED TO!!!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    DavidL said:

    The case for relaxation is in the data and it is compelling. Why Scotland has decided to damage our economy for another 4 weeks is, frankly, rather more mysterious.
    As people see the current trends in hospitalisations and deaths continue the polling will change. I think its called leadership.

    Scotland got a case rate bump from the previous relaxations and is a bit behind England now in bringing cases down.
    Yes, but that does not seem to be doing anything material in the hospital/death figures. The country (the UK) is broke. We need to get properly back to work. Now.
    Mrs J started back at the office today, working there three days a week, two days wfh. Pre-pandemic, she was one day wfh. She;s looking forward to seeing people, but not looking forward to the commute...
    We did a survey of our staff about returning to the office. That was exactly what we found too. Interestingly, several of our clerks maintained that they were far more productive at home when bored advocates couldn't wonder along and take up their time with a "chat".

    I finished a trial in Aberdeen today with a jury on the wonderwall, hearing all the evidence at a cinema. I am hoping that does not last too long although I am told that the courts, contrary to expectations, are finding a slightly higher conviction rate from Juries not actually in the court room. Today added to that statistic.
    I think (no pun intended ) the jury is out on whether wfh is more efficient or less efficient . Personally speaking starting a new job in Jan was no fun at all wfh and so 6 week later I still have no sense of being in the new role or any affinity with the organisation. i also found the stuff you always have to adjust to at a new job (IT , org structure , tips on how files are stored etc ) are a lot harder to get up to speed. I find there are more delays in getting queries answered by any big firm whihc must be related to wfh even if only communication problems (ie you just cannot lean over the shoulder of a colleague and sort simple stuff out) .
    But even if more efficient , wfh is a lot more depressing to me , if life is supposed to evolve to get better I am not sure everyone stuck in their houses all day all week is an human advance
    I completely agree. As I have mentioned on here before my daughter declined the public sector wfh job she had to bravely go into the big, bad world of criminal defence work where you go to the office and the court every day and meet real people.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,032
    O/T - a hoax email was sent out from my daughter's school on Sunday night saying that the school would be closed for two days. The school managed to send out another email clarifying that this was not the case, and that they were looking into how this happened.
    They've just sent another email with, attached, a letter setting out a further explanation of the incident. Except what's actually attached is not a letter but the database containing all parents' email addresses.
    I'm agog to see what the next instalment will be.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987
    edited February 2022

    nico679 said:

    So after the usual suspects were busy prematurely criticizing the EU for what sanctions they would bring in it turns out that the rhetoric from Bozo didn’t match the sanctions and the EU have gone much further and Germany have suspended Nord stream 2.

    Biden made it clear to the German Chancellor that he would end Nordstream 2 in a very public speech with the Chancellor beside him and so it has come to pass
    That's uncharitable. Whatever their reasoning, it was not certain they would do anything at all.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Boris described this as a barrage. To keep the analogy going this looks more like a warning shot but a barrage gives him more options when (as it seems inevitable) the next escalation comes. Bit odd he seemed to think that Abramovitch was already sanctioned. Maybe 20 points deducted from Chelsea would do the trick?

    The Nord 2 suspension is by far the most material sanction to date, for all our criticism of Germany's mealy mouth to date.
    Yup, the Germans dropped an A bomb, we fired an empty water pistol.
    They dropped that bomb with 2 arms and a leg being firmly held in an uncomfortable place by the US. I am pretty sure they would not have done it on their own accord.
    Also, surely it would be more effective if they'd said - unequivocally - that if Putin recognised Donetsk/Luhansk or moved in troops, Nordstream 2 would be suspended, rather than only making this clear after the event. The same goes for our financial sanctions of course.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,429
    edited February 2022
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well have not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    There's a balance to be struck. The problem with that balance is that the big stick you're prepared to use being held back looks like a rather dismal frozen fish.

    Different sticks..

    Invite Ukrane into NATO, evict ALL Russian citizens, freeze all Russian accounts. Close all borders. Carefully disengage from the ISS. That's the small stick.
    "Invite Ukrane into NATO" - if proposed would be vetoed by various members.

    "evict ALL Russian citizens, freeze all Russian accounts" - dissidents, opposition?

    "Carefully disengage from the ISS" - can't be done. Not in timescale of less than years, and the station only has a few years left.
    Mr M, I'm not really making policy here.

    Inviting Ukrane into NATO would almost be a declaration of war after all. I'd nearly just about do it, I think.

    All Russians are responsible for Russia. Anyone that has asylum would be treated differently.

    ISS: Of course it can be done!

    The FO has somehow recommended a really woeful package though.
    ISS - it can't be done since the Russian module(s) provides attitude control and reboost. To replace them would take designing and building modules with the same capabilities, launching them. Oh, and getting the Russians to agree that they can be added to the station (they have a veto on new additions).

    It's been proposed before - but those in the loop with the Russians reckon they would always reject such additions, precisely because they would make the Russian contribution obsolete.

    And yes, there have been various suggestions about jury rigging with a Dragon capsule.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,576

    nico679 said:

    So after the usual suspects were busy prematurely criticizing the EU for what sanctions they would bring in it turns out that the rhetoric from Bozo didn’t match the sanctions and the EU have gone much further and Germany have suspended Nord stream 2.

    The Boche are addicted to cheap Russian gas, they’ll never give it up.

    Germany suspends Nord Stream 2

    THEY ONLY DID BECAUSE THEY WERE FORCED TO!!!
    I thought it wasn't yet operational. They (and most of the Europe, including the UK) use gas from Russia, and still will do after this decision.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,202

    DavidL said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Boris described this as a barrage. To keep the analogy going this looks more like a warning shot but a barrage gives him more options when (as it seems inevitable) the next escalation comes. Bit odd he seemed to think that Abramovitch was already sanctioned. Maybe 20 points deducted from Chelsea would do the trick?

    The Nord 2 suspension is by far the most material sanction to date, for all our criticism of Germany's mealy mouth to date.
    Yup, the Germans dropped an A bomb, we fired an empty water pistol.
    Nord Stream 1 is still operational and Germany will continue to be the biggest purchaser of Russian gas.
    If they turn that off as well then William, it hurts in UK as well doesn’t it?
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,753
    edited February 2022
    TimS said:

    Omnium said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well have not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    There's a balance to be struck. The problem with that balance is that the big stick you're prepared to use being held back looks like a rather dismal frozen fish.

    Different sticks..

    Invite Ukrane into NATO, evict ALL Russian citizens, freeze all Russian accounts. Close all borders. Carefully disengage from the ISS. That's the small stick.
    "Invite Ukrane into NATO" - if proposed would be vetoed by various members.

    "evict ALL Russian citizens, freeze all Russian accounts" - dissidents, opposition?

    "Carefully disengage from the ISS" - can't be done. Not in timescale of less than years, and the station only has a few years left.
    Sadly I expect the only effective long term plan is also a hideous one: arm and fund resistance in Ukraine for the next 20 years and turn this into a Russian Iraq. Putin is at the Blair 2002 stage in foreign affairs: He believes he can never lose, because he's scored a series of almost unopposed victories. There hasn't been a strategic military failure since the 1990s. Plenty of strategic economic and PR failure, and loss of hearts and minds of course, but nothing like an Iraq or Afghanistan to trim his ambitions.
    With the risk of being abused as a Putin supporter , if the two breakaway republics are russian dominated by ethnicity why is it such a bad ethical thing . i get why it maybe is against international law but not sure I see it as that evil.Its certainly not anything to escalate beyond a bt of a diplomatic telling off (which seems to be the case)
  • Roger said:

    So far Johnson's hit Putin's golf partner, his masseuse and his shoe repairer.

    That's got to hurt

    You missed out every member of the Duma who voted for this
  • Nigelb said:

    Applicant said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Oh, Mr. Eagles. "of"?
    I hate using voice to text apps.

    They hate my working class Yorkshire accent.
    'uv' ?
    Somehow I knew it was the app to blame.
    Many years ago it changed 'diarrhoea' in to 'dire rear' which amused me immensely.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,429
    edited February 2022

    DavidL said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Boris described this as a barrage. To keep the analogy going this looks more like a warning shot but a barrage gives him more options when (as it seems inevitable) the next escalation comes. Bit odd he seemed to think that Abramovitch was already sanctioned. Maybe 20 points deducted from Chelsea would do the trick?

    The Nord 2 suspension is by far the most material sanction to date, for all our criticism of Germany's mealy mouth to date.
    Yup, the Germans dropped an A bomb, we fired an empty water pistol.
    Nord Stream 1 is still operational and Germany will continue to be the biggest purchaser of Russian gas.
    If they turn that off as well then William, it hurts in UK as well doesn’t it?
    Not really - we get our gas elsewhere. Apart from the increase in world gas prices that would cause, in the short term.

    Yes, Nord Stream 2 not going into operation doesn't mean that the Russians lose vast amounts of money coming in from Germany. They mainly lose leverage over Ukraine with respect to the "Gas Weapon"
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,611

    nico679 said:

    So after the usual suspects were busy prematurely criticizing the EU for what sanctions they would bring in it turns out that the rhetoric from Bozo didn’t match the sanctions and the EU have gone much further and Germany have suspended Nord stream 2.

    The Boche are addicted to cheap Russian gas, they’ll never give it up.

    Germany suspends Nord Stream 2

    THEY ONLY DID BECAUSE THEY WERE FORCED TO!!!
    If someone smokes 20 a day and you convince them not to increase it to 30 a day, that's not really a sign they're ready to give up the habit.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    TimS said:

    Omnium said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well have not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    There's a balance to be struck. The problem with that balance is that the big stick you're prepared to use being held back looks like a rather dismal frozen fish.

    Different sticks..

    Invite Ukrane into NATO, evict ALL Russian citizens, freeze all Russian accounts. Close all borders. Carefully disengage from the ISS. That's the small stick.
    "Invite Ukrane into NATO" - if proposed would be vetoed by various members.

    "evict ALL Russian citizens, freeze all Russian accounts" - dissidents, opposition?

    "Carefully disengage from the ISS" - can't be done. Not in timescale of less than years, and the station only has a few years left.
    Sadly I expect the only effective long term plan is also a hideous one: arm and fund resistance in Ukraine for the next 20 years and turn this into a Russian Iraq. Putin is at the Blair 2002 stage in foreign affairs: He believes he can never lose, because he's scored a series of almost unopposed victories. There hasn't been a strategic military failure since the 1990s. Plenty of strategic economic and PR failure, and loss of hearts and minds of course, but nothing like an Iraq or Afghanistan to trim his ambitions.
    So we are defending Western values to the last Ukrainian? that's big of us.
  • kle4 said:

    nico679 said:

    So after the usual suspects were busy prematurely criticizing the EU for what sanctions they would bring in it turns out that the rhetoric from Bozo didn’t match the sanctions and the EU have gone much further and Germany have suspended Nord stream 2.

    Biden made it clear to the German Chancellor that he would end Nordstream 2 in a very public speech with the Chancellor beside him and so it has come to pass
    That's uncharitable. Whatever their reasoning, it was not certain they would do anything at all.
    To be fair I listened to Biden at the White House say exactly that
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332

    TimS said:

    Omnium said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well have not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    There's a balance to be struck. The problem with that balance is that the big stick you're prepared to use being held back looks like a rather dismal frozen fish.

    Different sticks..

    Invite Ukrane into NATO, evict ALL Russian citizens, freeze all Russian accounts. Close all borders. Carefully disengage from the ISS. That's the small stick.
    "Invite Ukrane into NATO" - if proposed would be vetoed by various members.

    "evict ALL Russian citizens, freeze all Russian accounts" - dissidents, opposition?

    "Carefully disengage from the ISS" - can't be done. Not in timescale of less than years, and the station only has a few years left.
    Sadly I expect the only effective long term plan is also a hideous one: arm and fund resistance in Ukraine for the next 20 years and turn this into a Russian Iraq. Putin is at the Blair 2002 stage in foreign affairs: He believes he can never lose, because he's scored a series of almost unopposed victories. There hasn't been a strategic military failure since the 1990s. Plenty of strategic economic and PR failure, and loss of hearts and minds of course, but nothing like an Iraq or Afghanistan to trim his ambitions.
    With the risk of being abused as a Putin supporter , if the two breakaway republics are russian dominated by ethnicity why is it such a bad ethical thing . i get why it maybe is against international law but not sure I see it as that evil
    They weren't Russian ethnicity until some ethnic cleansing took place, and even then it is doubtful for Donetsk. It is not an acceptable way to change borders.
  • DavidL said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Boris described this as a barrage. To keep the analogy going this looks more like a warning shot but a barrage gives him more options when (as it seems inevitable) the next escalation comes. Bit odd he seemed to think that Abramovitch was already sanctioned. Maybe 20 points deducted from Chelsea would do the trick?

    The Nord 2 suspension is by far the most material sanction to date, for all our criticism of Germany's mealy mouth to date.
    Yup, the Germans dropped an A bomb, we fired an empty water pistol.
    Nord Stream 1 is still operational and Germany will continue to be the biggest purchaser of Russian gas.
    If they turn that off as well then William, it hurts in UK as well doesn’t it?
    Not really - we get our gas elsewhere. Apart from the increase in world gas prices that would cause, in the short term.

    Yes, Nord Stream 2 not going into operation doesn't mean that the Russians lose vast amounts of money coming in from Germany. They mainly lose leverage over Ukraine with respect to the "Gas Weapon"
    It strikes me that turning off a gas pipeline will hurt Europe more than Russia. i mean you can survive years without a bit of foreign tickle but need gas
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813
    On topic: the announcement about the rules will neither help nor harm Johnson. I think it's fair to say that most people have made up their minds what they think about him already...
    moonshine said:

    One wonders if the national security wing of the party will look today and finally think, yup this dude’s gotta go.

    They're a bunch of limp dicks. Anybody who was going to call for Johnson to go has already done it.

    Yup, the Germans dropped an A bomb, we fired an empty water pistol.

    Quite.

    Follow the money. The Conservatives don't want to go after their filthy rich mates.

    If we ever manage to get rid of this lot, the inquiry that follows into who was bought and for how much is going to be quite something.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,500

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well have not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    There's a balance to be struck. The problem with that balance is that the big stick you're prepared to use being held back looks like a rather dismal frozen fish.

    Different sticks..

    Invite Ukrane into NATO, evict ALL Russian citizens, freeze all Russian accounts. Close all borders. Carefully disengage from the ISS. That's the small stick.
    "Invite Ukrane into NATO" - if proposed would be vetoed by various members.

    "evict ALL Russian citizens, freeze all Russian accounts" - dissidents, opposition?

    "Carefully disengage from the ISS" - can't be done. Not in timescale of less than years, and the station only has a few years left.
    Mr M, I'm not really making policy here.

    Inviting Ukrane into NATO would almost be a declaration of war after all. I'd nearly just about do it, I think.

    All Russians are responsible for Russia. Anyone that has asylum would be treated differently.

    ISS: Of course it can be done!

    The FO has somehow recommended a really woeful package though.
    ISS - it can't be done since the Russian module(s) provides attitude control and reboost. To replace them would take designing and building modules with the same capabilities, launching them. Oh, and getting the Russians to agree that they can be added to the station (they have a veto on new additions).

    It's been proposed before - but those in the loop with the Russians reckon they would always reject such additions, precisely because they would make the Russian contribution obsolete.

    And yes, there have been various suggestions about jury rigging with a Dragon capsule.
    I know and knew it was tricky. I added it to my list precisely for that reason.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,886
    edited February 2022
    RobD said:

    nico679 said:

    So after the usual suspects were busy prematurely criticizing the EU for what sanctions they would bring in it turns out that the rhetoric from Bozo didn’t match the sanctions and the EU have gone much further and Germany have suspended Nord stream 2.

    The Boche are addicted to cheap Russian gas, they’ll never give it up.

    Germany suspends Nord Stream 2

    THEY ONLY DID BECAUSE THEY WERE FORCED TO!!!
    I thought it wasn't yet operational. They (and most of the Europe, including the UK) use gas from Russia, and still will do after this decision.
    Before Nordstream 2, Russia supplies a little under half of the gas used by Europe iirc.

    Presumably Mr Pootin is going to have to keep the one through Ukraine up and running if he is not to violate his contracts, which we hope he does not treat the same as his international treaty agreements.

    That is iirc worth a couple of billion a year to Ukraine, which if push comes to shove is a lorra lorra antitank missiles.
  • Another reason cryptos are terrible and need to be stopped.

    North Korea is using increasingly sophisticated hacking and money-laundering techniques to steal cryptocurrencies in its latest effort to evade sanctions and fund its nuclear weapons programmes.

    Kim Jong-un’s government is earning hundreds of millions of dollars at a time in hacking raids on cryptocurrency exchanges, where currencies such as bitcoin are traded digitally, studies indicate. The regime is evading efforts to clamp down on its activities with the use of the latest technologies that help it to transfer and sell digital currencies without detection.

    North Korea’s state cryptorobber, known as the Lazarus Group, has carried out a number of spectacular heists over the years, including from the central bank of Bangladesh. Ordinary North Korean citizens are denied access to the world wide web, but Lazarus continues to mount sophisticated attacks under the auspices of the country’s external intelligence agency, the Reconnaissance General Bureau.

    “Pyongyang has demonstrated an increasing interest in using evolving financial platforms such as cryptocurrency and blockchain technology to compensate for the fiscal losses related to economic sanctions,” a report by the Centre for a New American Security (CNAS), a Washington think tank, said.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/kim-steals-crypto-to-make-a-bomb-hhjxmjvrx
  • nico679 said:

    So after the usual suspects were busy prematurely criticizing the EU for what sanctions they would bring in it turns out that the rhetoric from Bozo didn’t match the sanctions and the EU have gone much further and Germany have suspended Nord stream 2.

    The Boche are addicted to cheap Russian gas, they’ll never give it up.

    Germany suspends Nord Stream 2

    THEY ONLY DID BECAUSE THEY WERE FORCED TO!!!
    If someone smokes 20 a day and you convince them not to increase it to 30 a day, that's not really a sign they're ready to give up the habit.
    Hey, I get it, you guys have moved on from Nord Stream 2 is the greatest possible evidence of German appeasement and perfidy.

    It’s a fast moving situation.
  • Tory MPs scratching their heads today at how UK went from being hardliner on Ukraine to having the some of the weakest sanctions to announce today, when reverse has been true of Germany. Something not quite lining up.

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1496180285561528325
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332
    Essexit said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Boris described this as a barrage. To keep the analogy going this looks more like a warning shot but a barrage gives him more options when (as it seems inevitable) the next escalation comes. Bit odd he seemed to think that Abramovitch was already sanctioned. Maybe 20 points deducted from Chelsea would do the trick?

    The Nord 2 suspension is by far the most material sanction to date, for all our criticism of Germany's mealy mouth to date.
    Yup, the Germans dropped an A bomb, we fired an empty water pistol.
    They dropped that bomb with 2 arms and a leg being firmly held in an uncomfortable place by the US. I am pretty sure they would not have done it on their own accord.
    Also, surely it would be more effective if they'd said - unequivocally - that if Putin recognised Donetsk/Luhansk or moved in troops, Nordstream 2 would be suspended, rather than only making this clear after the event. The same goes for our financial sanctions of course.
    I understand (and do not pretend expertise in this) that sanctions are generally thought to be a greater threat until they are imposed when there is a greater uncertainty and apprehension.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,847
    edited February 2022

    Tory MPs scratching their heads today at how UK went from being hardliner on Ukraine to having the some of the weakest sanctions to announce today, when reverse has been true of Germany. Something not quite lining up.

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1496180285561528325

    Indeed. As discussed earlier.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,202
    nico679 said:

    So after the usual suspects were busy prematurely criticizing the EU for what sanctions they would bring in it turns out that the rhetoric from Bozo didn’t match the sanctions and the EU have gone much further and Germany have suspended Nord stream 2.

    Is this now the consensus on PB, that the EU have gone further than UK - and UK fired no more than a water pistol.

    I’m not sure. I am certainly not getting that from the MSM, that’s likely not to even feature on tomorrows front pages either.

    I think mistake Boris and his government done was to trail for weeks sanctions would be effective and powerful, and even to big up today’s announcement as a barrage.

    Sanction day, but with some held back for what is referred to as a “proper invasion.” The what? And what if it doesn’t come?

    How joined up are the West on sanctions? Couple of people Boris sanctioned today were sanctioned by US years ago. After Salisbury outrage US, in show of solidarity with Britain, sanctioned someone the UK left alone. How is that explained?

    I’ll have a go at explaining it. are the Western nations joined up in how they target, or do they choose different targets based on how they are personally exposed to each? For example. Have the EU already started with a tougher line than the UK, just because they are in an easier place on some things compared to how difficult it would be for Boris to kick Russian money out that quickly. Property? The City? Political donations? For sure Europe is currently a bit too dependent on Gazprom Gas, but UK could have similar exposure in other ways? Or is it other way round, considering how banks in some EU countries, Greece, Cyprus, and Austria and Germany too, have too much Exposure to Russian money, for swift meaningful action?

    If the West isn’t joined up on sanctions, could each member of the west take decisions others will not want them to take. If, for example, EU go cold Turkey on Russian Gas, this in turn exposes UK, our households, businesses and economy because we gain wealthy competition after the same supplies we have been purchasing? This could create a situation we are outbid for what we need, and pay prices that really hurt our businesses and households? So is this taken into account, if Western nations do their own form of sanctions, not act in concerted joined up way?

    Barrage of Sanctions day, where Putin should be worried, is he in fact chuckling so far?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,796

    nico679 said:

    So after the usual suspects were busy prematurely criticizing the EU for what sanctions they would bring in it turns out that the rhetoric from Bozo didn’t match the sanctions and the EU have gone much further and Germany have suspended Nord stream 2.

    The Boche are addicted to cheap Russian gas, they’ll never give it up.

    Germany suspends Nord Stream 2

    THEY ONLY DID BECAUSE THEY WERE FORCED TO!!!
    You sound surprised. Are you new here?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,018
    Interesting that the politics and age trends oppose each other. Younger people tend to be more supportive but so are Con/leave supporters.

    Presumably young and Con/Leave are very supportive.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,886
    edited February 2022
    DavidL said:

    MattW said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    DavidL said:

    The case for relaxation is in the data and it is compelling. Why Scotland has decided to damage our economy for another 4 weeks is, frankly, rather more mysterious.
    As people see the current trends in hospitalisations and deaths continue the polling will change. I think its called leadership.

    Scotland got a case rate bump from the previous relaxations and is a bit behind England now in bringing cases down.
    Yes, but that does not seem to be doing anything material in the hospital/death figures. The country (the UK) is broke. We need to get properly back to work. Now.
    Mrs J started back at the office today, working there three days a week, two days wfh. Pre-pandemic, she was one day wfh. She;s looking forward to seeing people, but not looking forward to the commute...
    We did a survey of our staff about returning to the office. That was exactly what we found too. Interestingly, several of our clerks maintained that they were far more productive at home when bored advocates couldn't wonder along and take up their time with a "chat".
    Lawyers talking too much?

    Whodathunkit ? :smile:
    The incredible thing is lawyers talking without getting paid for it. It's unprofessional!
    Hmmm.

    I've been dealing with lawyers wrt my parent's estate for the last 2 years 3 months now, and have just been told that it will be another 5-6 months to get things wrapped up and finished.

    I am slightly dreading the bill when it arrives.

    Each 5.5 minute phone call (I have a lawyer-timer) is about another £20.

    https://www.online-stopwatch.com/timer/6minute/
  • Tory MPs scratching their heads today at how UK went from being hardliner on Ukraine to having the some of the weakest sanctions to announce today, when reverse has been true of Germany. Something not quite lining up.

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1496180285561528325

    What do they think all the Russian donations to the Tory party were for?
  • DavidL said:

    Essexit said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    So, at work it was trailed by the government they were going to target Kremlin allied Russians/Brits in the UK via the financial services system.

    What was announced today is so minimal and ineffective the government may as well of not bothered.

    For this is alone Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak need to quit or be removed.

    Boris described this as a barrage. To keep the analogy going this looks more like a warning shot but a barrage gives him more options when (as it seems inevitable) the next escalation comes. Bit odd he seemed to think that Abramovitch was already sanctioned. Maybe 20 points deducted from Chelsea would do the trick?

    The Nord 2 suspension is by far the most material sanction to date, for all our criticism of Germany's mealy mouth to date.
    Yup, the Germans dropped an A bomb, we fired an empty water pistol.
    They dropped that bomb with 2 arms and a leg being firmly held in an uncomfortable place by the US. I am pretty sure they would not have done it on their own accord.
    Also, surely it would be more effective if they'd said - unequivocally - that if Putin recognised Donetsk/Luhansk or moved in troops, Nordstream 2 would be suspended, rather than only making this clear after the event. The same goes for our financial sanctions of course.
    I understand (and do not pretend expertise in this) that sanctions are generally thought to be a greater threat until they are imposed when there is a greater uncertainty and apprehension.
    '...The threat is stronger than the execution.' Aron Nimzowitsch.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813

    Tory MPs scratching their heads today at how UK went from being hardliner on Ukraine to having the some of the weakest sanctions to announce today, when reverse has been true of Germany. Something not quite lining up.

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1496180285561528325

    Some of them will be wondering again where all the money came from to pay for that Lulu Lytle wallpaper.

    (Though this would, of course, be very unfair. It was obviously all above board.)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,649
    edited February 2022
    Roger said:

    So far Johnson's hit Putin's golf partner, his masseuse and his shoe repairer.

    That's got to hurt

    Well, yes, if as we are assured all that bulk is muscle it must have been bloody painful.

    Personally though I think it's all cobblers.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,611
    Russia is evacuating all diplomatic staff from Ukraine "to protect their lives and safety".

    https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/news/1800036/
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,796

    Roger said:

    So far Johnson's hit Putin's golf partner, his masseuse and his shoe repairer.

    That's got to hurt

    You missed out every member of the Duma who voted for this
    I thought they were on a slow train to Vladivostok?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,886
    pigeon said:

    Tory MPs scratching their heads today at how UK went from being hardliner on Ukraine to having the some of the weakest sanctions to announce today, when reverse has been true of Germany. Something not quite lining up.

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1496180285561528325

    Some of them will be wondering again where all the money came from to pay for that Lulu Lytle wallpaper.

    (Though this would, of course, be very unfair. It was obviously all above board.)
    Perhaps we are going to see them expanded in a day or two?

    It depends how much Uk Gov knew about the EuCo package.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,847
    edited February 2022

    nico679 said:

    So after the usual suspects were busy prematurely criticizing the EU for what sanctions they would bring in it turns out that the rhetoric from Bozo didn’t match the sanctions and the EU have gone much further and Germany have suspended Nord stream 2.

    Is this now the consensus on PB, that the EU have gone further than UK - and UK fired no more than a water pistol.

    I’m not sure. I am certainly not getting that from the MSM, that’s likely not to even feature on tomorrows front pages either.

    I think mistake Boris and his government done was to trail for weeks sanctions would be effective and powerful, and even to big up today’s announcement as a barrage.

    Sanction day, but with some held back for what is referred to as a “proper invasion.” The what? And what if it doesn’t come?

    How joined up are the West on sanctions? Couple of people Boris sanctioned today were sanctioned by US years ago. After Salisbury outrage US, in show of solidarity with Britain, sanctioned someone the UK left alone. How is that explained?

    I’ll have a go at explaining it. are the Western nations joined up in how they target, or do they choose different targets based on how they are personally exposed to each? For example. Have the EU already started with a tougher line than the UK, just because they are in an easier place on some things compared to how difficult it would be for Boris to kick Russian money out that quickly. Property? The City? Political donations? For sure Europe is currently a bit too dependent on Gazprom Gas, but UK could have similar exposure in other ways? Or is it other way round, considering how banks in some EU countries, Greece, Cyprus, and Austria and Germany too, have too much Exposure to Russian money, for swift meaningful action?

    If the West isn’t joined up on sanctions, could each member of the west take decisions others will not want them to take. If, for example, EU go cold Turkey on Russian Gas, this in turn exposes UK, our households, businesses and economy because we gain wealthy competition after the same supplies we have been purchasing? This could create a situation we are outbid for what we need, and pay prices that really hurt our businesses and households? So is this taken into account, if Western nations do their own form of sanctions, not act in concerted joined up way?

    Barrage of Sanctions day, where Putin should be worried, is he in fact chuckling so far?
    Cyprus for sure has as big a problem economically as Boris does with his political donations nexus. There's a huge amount of Russian financial linkage and citizens living in Cyprus ; although over the last few years they've moved much closer to the US and Israel in terms of strategic relations, in tandem with their mother country.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,649
    Cookie said:

    O/T - a hoax email was sent out from my daughter's school on Sunday night saying that the school would be closed for two days. The school managed to send out another email clarifying that this was not the case, and that they were looking into how this happened.
    They've just sent another email with, attached, a letter setting out a further explanation of the incident. Except what's actually attached is not a letter but the database containing all parents' email addresses.
    I'm agog to see what the next instalment will be.

    Ohshit. That is bad.

    The next thing will almost certainly be the resignations of the data controller and whoever sent the email.

    Then a very heavy fine from the ICO.

    Quite possibly followed by an OFSTED inspection which will not go well, because that's a disastrous safeguarding breach.

    Fecking hell, that's awful.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,761
    edited February 2022
    DavidL said:

    The case for relaxation is in the data and it is compelling. Why Scotland has decided to damage our economy for another 4 weeks is, frankly, rather more mysterious.
    As people see the current trends in hospitalisations and deaths continue the polling will change. I think its called leadership.

    Though I was informed today that in Scotland, isolation has always been guidance rather than law. So it now is England coming into line with Scotland.
This discussion has been closed.