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Sunak extends his “better PM” lead over Johnson to 13% – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited March 2022 in General
imageSunak extends his “better PM” lead over Johnson to 13% – politicalbetting.com

I have referred to this Redfield & Wllton regular poll question before – how do those sampled rate Sunak against Johnson on who would make the better PM – because it is one that could impact on Tory MPs as they try to decide whether to stick with Johnson or have another leader and PM.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    edited February 2022
    Not First.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    tlg86 said:

    First.

    (nearly)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    Go fourth and ...
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Filth.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

  • The Conservatives' problem is that, although Sunak improves their situation, he doesn't do it decisively; he certainly doesn't give the government a big reserve of popularity to eke out over the bad times that are probably coming.

    And that's what they need.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    *off topic Minsk Protocol II

    “It will be a political catastrophe if Minsk Protocols are not upheld” Gas addict Schulz this afternoon.

    So (all my reading up on this has come to the right understanding?) when in coming days and weeks we hear this agreement mentioned (correct me where wrong)

    implement now and full is Pro Russia

    renegotiate first (and any delay tactic) is pro Kiev
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    There seems to be some excitement on some small niches of twitter about an electricity market auction today. Seems that a record amount of capacity sold, but at a record high price, and not as much capacity as BEIS wanted to see. So, perhaps difficult times ahead for the grid? Not sure about the details.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    Oh I don’t deny that the antivaxxers are bloody lucky that there aren’t too many of them otherwise it would have taken a long time to get through this (repeated lockdowns and reopenings until enough people had some immunity). Indeed, Sajid Javid made precisely this argument in respect to Djokovic.

    But I’m not sure quite what’s to be gained from caring about COVID vaccination status, to be honest.

    I’d argue there’s much more of a case for saying that not getting your child vaccinated (MMR etc) should be considered child abuse.
  • Farooq said:

    The Conservatives' problem is that, although Sunak improves their situation, he doesn't do it decisively; he certainly doesn't give the government a big reserve of popularity to eke out over the bad times that are probably coming.

    And that's what they need.

    The Conservatives' other problem is they are making the political calculation you describe and not a moral one.
    Boris Johnson should not be PM.
    Fair point. But the decision to not make a moral decision was taken years ago- it's just the implications are only becoming too obvious to ignore (though many will try).

    A party can't annoint someone in 2019, knowing he is a nasty piece of work, and dump him in 2022 for turning out to be a nasty piece of work.

    Not without looking really stupid and nasty, anyway.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited February 2022
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    Oh I don’t deny that the antivaxxers are bloody lucky that there aren’t too many of them otherwise it would have taken a long time to get through this (repeated lockdowns and reopenings until enough people had some immunity). Indeed, Sajid Javid made precisely this argument in respect to Djokovic.

    But I’m not sure quite what’s to be gained from caring about COVID vaccination status, to be honest.

    I’d argue there’s much more of a case for saying that not getting your child vaccinated (MMR etc) should be considered child abuse.
    I have a practical example in my own life worth sharing.

    The school has made it compulsory that my 7 year-old daughter get her second vaccination by the end of this month. The reason is that she cannot use the YMCA facilities without it.

    I don’t believe there is any epidemiological rationale for a second vaccination (and I’m not even sure about the first, which we had to administer at the beginning of January).

    My wife - not an instinctive rule breaker - has suggested we forge a second vax card, and in discussion with another set of parents it seems they have similar thoughts.

    It seems possible too that the YMCA will drop their requirement very soon. It will be kind of insulting to be forced to subject my daughter to a medical requirement which may be shortly abandoned…

    🤔
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    Oh I don’t deny that the antivaxxers are bloody lucky that there aren’t too many of them otherwise it would have taken a long time to get through this (repeated lockdowns and reopenings until enough people had some immunity). Indeed, Sajid Javid made precisely this argument in respect to Djokovic.

    But I’m not sure quite what’s to be gained from caring about COVID vaccination status, to be honest.

    I’d argue there’s much more of a case for saying that not getting your child vaccinated (MMR etc) should be considered child abuse.
    I have a practical example in my own life worth sharing.

    The school has made it compulsory that my 7 year-old daughter get her second vaccination by the end of this month. The reason is that she cannot use the YMCA facilities without it.

    I don’t believe there is any epidemiological rationale for a second vaccination (and I’m not even sure about the first, which we had to administer at the beginning of January).

    My wife - not an instinctive rule breaker - has suggested we forge a second vax card, and in discussion with another set of parents it seems they have similar thoughts.

    It seems possible too that the YMCA will drop their requirement very soon too.

    🤔
    What do you see as the downside to getting your daughter he 2nd vaccination?
  • At this moment, which of the following individuals do you think would be the better Prime Minister for the United Kingdom?

    Johnson:Sunak (R&W)

    East Midlands 35:37
    South East 34:34
    London 32:44
    Wales 28:37
    South West 28:40
    Eastern 28:45
    West Midlands 27:39
    North West 27:39
    North East 23:48
    Yorkshire & Humber 21:49
    Scotland 18:48

    Johnson fails to win a single area.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    Oh I don’t deny that the antivaxxers are bloody lucky that there aren’t too many of them otherwise it would have taken a long time to get through this (repeated lockdowns and reopenings until enough people had some immunity). Indeed, Sajid Javid made precisely this argument in respect to Djokovic.

    But I’m not sure quite what’s to be gained from caring about COVID vaccination status, to be honest.

    I’d argue there’s much more of a case for saying that not getting your child vaccinated (MMR etc) should be considered child abuse.
    I have a practical example in my own life worth sharing.

    The school has made it compulsory that my 7 year-old daughter get her second vaccination by the end of this month. The reason is that she cannot use the YMCA facilities without it.

    I don’t believe there is any epidemiological rationale for a second vaccination (and I’m not even sure about the first, which we had to administer at the beginning of January).

    My wife - not an instinctive rule breaker - has suggested we forge a second vax card, and in discussion with another set of parents it seems they have similar thoughts.

    It seems possible too that the YMCA will drop their requirement very soon too.

    🤔
    What do you see as the downside to getting your daughter he 2nd vaccination?
    She hates needles.
    And it is unnecessary?

    I strongly believe in vaxxing right up to the point where it is not necessary, then I strongly don’t believe in vaxxing.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    edited February 2022

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    Oh I don’t deny that the antivaxxers are bloody lucky that there aren’t too many of them otherwise it would have taken a long time to get through this (repeated lockdowns and reopenings until enough people had some immunity). Indeed, Sajid Javid made precisely this argument in respect to Djokovic.

    But I’m not sure quite what’s to be gained from caring about COVID vaccination status, to be honest.

    I’d argue there’s much more of a case for saying that not getting your child vaccinated (MMR etc) should be considered child abuse.
    I have a practical example in my own life worth sharing.

    The school has made it compulsory that my 7 year-old daughter get her second vaccination by the end of this month. The reason is that she cannot use the YMCA facilities without it.

    I don’t believe there is any epidemiological rationale for a second vaccination (and I’m not even sure about the first, which we had to administer at the beginning of January).

    My wife - not an instinctive rule breaker - has suggested we forge a second vax card, and in discussion with another set of parents it seems they have similar thoughts.

    It seems possible too that the YMCA will drop their requirement very soon too.

    🤔
    What do you see as the downside to getting your daughter he 2nd vaccination?
    She hates needles.
    And it is unnecessary?

    I strongly believe in vaxxing right up to the point where it is not necessary, then I strongly don’t believe in vaxxing.
    There is not a hard line between necessary and unnecessary though.

    Needle phobia is a genuine issue I am sure. Weren't there non-needle methods for vaccine delivery being developed sometime ago?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    At this moment, which of the following individuals do you think would be the better Prime Minister for the United Kingdom?

    Johnson:Sunak (R&W)

    East Midlands 35:37
    South East 34:34
    London 32:44
    Wales 28:37
    South West 28:40
    Eastern 28:45
    West Midlands 27:39
    North West 27:39
    North East 23:48
    Yorkshire & Humber 21:49
    Scotland 18:48

    Johnson fails to win a single area.

    Most of this stuff washes over me these days. Johnson is on track to lose the next election, whatever the ebbs and flows of the latest poll.

    But these are actually quite bad for Johnson. Some are surprisingly low.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497

    At this moment, which of the following individuals do you think would be the better Prime Minister for the United Kingdom?

    Johnson:Sunak (R&W)

    East Midlands 35:37
    South East 34:34
    London 32:44
    Wales 28:37
    South West 28:40
    Eastern 28:45
    West Midlands 27:39
    North West 27:39
    North East 23:48
    Yorkshire & Humber 21:49
    Scotland 18:48

    Johnson fails to win a single area.

    Thanks to all other parties having an opinion.

    Do you have the same for Tory 19 voters only?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    Oh I don’t deny that the antivaxxers are bloody lucky that there aren’t too many of them otherwise it would have taken a long time to get through this (repeated lockdowns and reopenings until enough people had some immunity). Indeed, Sajid Javid made precisely this argument in respect to Djokovic.

    But I’m not sure quite what’s to be gained from caring about COVID vaccination status, to be honest.

    I’d argue there’s much more of a case for saying that not getting your child vaccinated (MMR etc) should be considered child abuse.
    I have a practical example in my own life worth sharing.

    The school has made it compulsory that my 7 year-old daughter get her second vaccination by the end of this month. The reason is that she cannot use the YMCA facilities without it.

    I don’t believe there is any epidemiological rationale for a second vaccination (and I’m not even sure about the first, which we had to administer at the beginning of January).

    My wife - not an instinctive rule breaker - has suggested we forge a second vax card, and in discussion with another set of parents it seems they have similar thoughts.

    It seems possible too that the YMCA will drop their requirement very soon too.

    🤔
    What do you see as the downside to getting your daughter he 2nd vaccination?
    She hates needles.
    And it is unnecessary?

    I strongly believe in vaxxing right up to the point where it is not necessary, then I strongly don’t believe in vaxxing.
    I am confused by this. I thought you thought people should get vaccinated to protect others? Do you give kids a pass on that?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    Oh I don’t deny that the antivaxxers are bloody lucky that there aren’t too many of them otherwise it would have taken a long time to get through this (repeated lockdowns and reopenings until enough people had some immunity). Indeed, Sajid Javid made precisely this argument in respect to Djokovic.

    But I’m not sure quite what’s to be gained from caring about COVID vaccination status, to be honest.

    I’d argue there’s much more of a case for saying that not getting your child vaccinated (MMR etc) should be considered child abuse.
    I have a practical example in my own life worth sharing.

    The school has made it compulsory that my 7 year-old daughter get her second vaccination by the end of this month. The reason is that she cannot use the YMCA facilities without it.

    I don’t believe there is any epidemiological rationale for a second vaccination (and I’m not even sure about the first, which we had to administer at the beginning of January).

    My wife - not an instinctive rule breaker - has suggested we forge a second vax card, and in discussion with another set of parents it seems they have similar thoughts.

    It seems possible too that the YMCA will drop their requirement very soon too.

    🤔
    What do you see as the downside to getting your daughter he 2nd vaccination?
    She hates needles.
    And it is unnecessary?

    I strongly believe in vaxxing right up to the point where it is not necessary, then I strongly don’t believe in vaxxing.
    I am confused by this. I thought you thought people should get vaccinated to protect others? Do you give kids a pass on that?
    The point of vaccination is two-fold.
    First, to save oneself.
    Second, to save others.

    The first becomes less important the younger you are.

    The second becomes less important as the rest of society vaccinates.

    My daughter is vaccinated once already. New York is highly vaccinated. I don’t believe a second vaccination can easily be justified on either of these two grounds.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited February 2022
    The key is the v Starmer figure, as plenty who prefer Sunak to Boris would never vote Tory anyway. Tory voters still prefer Boris to Sunak so Sunak would need to see a big lead over Starmer as best PM for a change to be worthwhile.

    On that the fact Sunak does not lead Starmer either but only ties him while Boris only trails Starmer by 4% is not a huge difference at this stage, especially as the voting intention polls get closer again too
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    Oh I don’t deny that the antivaxxers are bloody lucky that there aren’t too many of them otherwise it would have taken a long time to get through this (repeated lockdowns and reopenings until enough people had some immunity). Indeed, Sajid Javid made precisely this argument in respect to Djokovic.

    But I’m not sure quite what’s to be gained from caring about COVID vaccination status, to be honest.

    I’d argue there’s much more of a case for saying that not getting your child vaccinated (MMR etc) should be considered child abuse.
    I have a practical example in my own life worth sharing.

    The school has made it compulsory that my 7 year-old daughter get her second vaccination by the end of this month. The reason is that she cannot use the YMCA facilities without it.

    I don’t believe there is any epidemiological rationale for a second vaccination (and I’m not even sure about the first, which we had to administer at the beginning of January).

    My wife - not an instinctive rule breaker - has suggested we forge a second vax card, and in discussion with another set of parents it seems they have similar thoughts.

    It seems possible too that the YMCA will drop their requirement very soon too.

    🤔
    What do you see as the downside to getting your daughter he 2nd vaccination?
    She hates needles.
    And it is unnecessary?

    I strongly believe in vaxxing right up to the point where it is not necessary, then I strongly don’t believe in vaxxing.
    I am confused by this. I thought you thought people should get vaccinated to protect others? Do you give kids a pass on that?
    The point of vaccination is two-fold.
    First, to save oneself.
    Second, to save others.

    The first becomes less important the younger you are.

    The second becomes less important as the rest of society vaccinates.

    My daughter is vaccinated once already. New York is highly vaccinated. I don’t believe a second vaccination can easily be justified on either of these two grounds.
    Still, forging a vaccination certificate is a seriously BAD idea.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    Oh I don’t deny that the antivaxxers are bloody lucky that there aren’t too many of them otherwise it would have taken a long time to get through this (repeated lockdowns and reopenings until enough people had some immunity). Indeed, Sajid Javid made precisely this argument in respect to Djokovic.

    But I’m not sure quite what’s to be gained from caring about COVID vaccination status, to be honest.

    I’d argue there’s much more of a case for saying that not getting your child vaccinated (MMR etc) should be considered child abuse.
    I have a practical example in my own life worth sharing.

    The school has made it compulsory that my 7 year-old daughter get her second vaccination by the end of this month. The reason is that she cannot use the YMCA facilities without it.

    I don’t believe there is any epidemiological rationale for a second vaccination (and I’m not even sure about the first, which we had to administer at the beginning of January).

    My wife - not an instinctive rule breaker - has suggested we forge a second vax card, and in discussion with another set of parents it seems they have similar thoughts.

    It seems possible too that the YMCA will drop their requirement very soon too.

    🤔
    What do you see as the downside to getting your daughter he 2nd vaccination?
    She hates needles.
    And it is unnecessary?

    I strongly believe in vaxxing right up to the point where it is not necessary, then I strongly don’t believe in vaxxing.
    I am confused by this. I thought you thought people should get vaccinated to protect others? Do you give kids a pass on that?
    The point of vaccination is two-fold.
    First, to save oneself.
    Second, to save others.

    The first becomes less important the younger you are.

    The second becomes less important as the rest of society vaccinates.

    My daughter is vaccinated once already. New York is highly vaccinated. I don’t believe a second vaccination can easily be justified on either of these two grounds.
    Still, forging a vaccination certificate is a seriously BAD idea.
    Is it though.

    Do you mean morally or practically?
    The insistence seems to be on adhering to the process of vaccination, real world checks seem limited. Remember, this is for school only, so she can use the gym.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    Oh I don’t deny that the antivaxxers are bloody lucky that there aren’t too many of them otherwise it would have taken a long time to get through this (repeated lockdowns and reopenings until enough people had some immunity). Indeed, Sajid Javid made precisely this argument in respect to Djokovic.

    But I’m not sure quite what’s to be gained from caring about COVID vaccination status, to be honest.

    I’d argue there’s much more of a case for saying that not getting your child vaccinated (MMR etc) should be considered child abuse.
    I have a practical example in my own life worth sharing.

    The school has made it compulsory that my 7 year-old daughter get her second vaccination by the end of this month. The reason is that she cannot use the YMCA facilities without it.

    I don’t believe there is any epidemiological rationale for a second vaccination (and I’m not even sure about the first, which we had to administer at the beginning of January).

    My wife - not an instinctive rule breaker - has suggested we forge a second vax card, and in discussion with another set of parents it seems they have similar thoughts.

    It seems possible too that the YMCA will drop their requirement very soon too.

    🤔
    What do you see as the downside to getting your daughter he 2nd vaccination?
    She hates needles.
    And it is unnecessary?

    I strongly believe in vaxxing right up to the point where it is not necessary, then I strongly don’t believe in vaxxing.
    I am confused by this. I thought you thought people should get vaccinated to protect others? Do you give kids a pass on that?
    The point of vaccination is two-fold.
    First, to save oneself.
    Second, to save others.

    The first becomes less important the younger you are.

    The second becomes less important as the rest of society vaccinates.

    My daughter is vaccinated once already. New York is highly vaccinated. I don’t believe a second vaccination can easily be justified on either of these two grounds.
    Are you talking about a second dose or another set of two doses? If it’s the former she has not received even one vaccination yet.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    Farooq said:

    At this moment, which of the following individuals do you think would be the better Prime Minister for the United Kingdom?

    Johnson:Sunak (R&W)

    East Midlands 35:37
    South East 34:34
    London 32:44
    Wales 28:37
    South West 28:40
    Eastern 28:45
    West Midlands 27:39
    North West 27:39
    North East 23:48
    Yorkshire & Humber 21:49
    Scotland 18:48

    Johnson fails to win a single area.

    Thanks to all other parties having an opinion.

    Do you have the same for Tory 19 voters only?
    I didn't realise that was controversial.
    Next those filthy liberals and socialists will be demanding the vote.
    What now Farooq? 🙂. Can’t say I disagree because I don’t even understand your point

    Of course if you keep beating your enemy they would want you replaced? Without being a Tory voter I asked a fair question, what’s the same table of Tory vote only, as that’s the one that could really put pressure on.

    Nb. I suspect in this type of polling gives unfair advantage to incumbent, better name recognition, and better the devil you know.
  • Farooq said:

    Hunt for PM!

    I've found him in the fridge!
    And he’s way past his best before date.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497

    Farooq said:

    Hunt for PM!

    I've found him in the fridge!
    And he’s way past his best before date.
    You done the sniff test 🥴
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    edited February 2022

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    Oh I don’t deny that the antivaxxers are bloody lucky that there aren’t too many of them otherwise it would have taken a long time to get through this (repeated lockdowns and reopenings until enough people had some immunity). Indeed, Sajid Javid made precisely this argument in respect to Djokovic.

    But I’m not sure quite what’s to be gained from caring about COVID vaccination status, to be honest.

    I’d argue there’s much more of a case for saying that not getting your child vaccinated (MMR etc) should be considered child abuse.
    I have a practical example in my own life worth sharing.

    The school has made it compulsory that my 7 year-old daughter get her second vaccination by the end of this month. The reason is that she cannot use the YMCA facilities without it.

    I don’t believe there is any epidemiological rationale for a second vaccination (and I’m not even sure about the first, which we had to administer at the beginning of January).

    My wife - not an instinctive rule breaker - has suggested we forge a second vax card, and in discussion with another set of parents it seems they have similar thoughts.

    It seems possible too that the YMCA will drop their requirement very soon too.

    🤔
    What do you see as the downside to getting your daughter he 2nd vaccination?
    She hates needles.
    And it is unnecessary?

    I strongly believe in vaxxing right up to the point where it is not necessary, then I strongly don’t believe in vaxxing.
    I am confused by this. I thought you thought people should get vaccinated to protect others? Do you give kids a pass on that?
    The point of vaccination is two-fold.
    First, to save oneself.
    Second, to save others.

    The first becomes less important the younger you are.

    The second becomes less important as the rest of society vaccinates.

    My daughter is vaccinated once already. New York is highly vaccinated. I don’t believe a second vaccination can easily be justified on either of these two grounds.
    Still, forging a vaccination certificate is a seriously BAD idea.
    Is it though.

    Do you mean morally or practically?
    The insistence seems to be on adhering to the process of vaccination, real world checks seem limited. Remember, this is for school only, so she can use the gym.
    Morally.

    I believe you are in the US? Presumably they don't have anything akin to the NHS vaccination certificate, which would be a bit involved to forge.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    Oh I don’t deny that the antivaxxers are bloody lucky that there aren’t too many of them otherwise it would have taken a long time to get through this (repeated lockdowns and reopenings until enough people had some immunity). Indeed, Sajid Javid made precisely this argument in respect to Djokovic.

    But I’m not sure quite what’s to be gained from caring about COVID vaccination status, to be honest.

    I’d argue there’s much more of a case for saying that not getting your child vaccinated (MMR etc) should be considered child abuse.
    I have a practical example in my own life worth sharing.

    The school has made it compulsory that my 7 year-old daughter get her second vaccination by the end of this month. The reason is that she cannot use the YMCA facilities without it.

    I don’t believe there is any epidemiological rationale for a second vaccination (and I’m not even sure about the first, which we had to administer at the beginning of January).

    My wife - not an instinctive rule breaker - has suggested we forge a second vax card, and in discussion with another set of parents it seems they have similar thoughts.

    It seems possible too that the YMCA will drop their requirement very soon too.

    🤔
    What do you see as the downside to getting your daughter he 2nd vaccination?
    She hates needles.
    And it is unnecessary?

    I strongly believe in vaxxing right up to the point where it is not necessary, then I strongly don’t believe in vaxxing.
    I am confused by this. I thought you thought people should get vaccinated to protect others? Do you give kids a pass on that?
    The point of vaccination is two-fold.
    First, to save oneself.
    Second, to save others.

    The first becomes less important the younger you are.

    The second becomes less important as the rest of society vaccinates.

    My daughter is vaccinated once already. New York is highly vaccinated. I don’t believe a second vaccination can easily be justified on either of these two grounds.
    Still, forging a vaccination certificate is a seriously BAD idea.
    Is it though.

    Do you mean morally or practically?
    The insistence seems to be on adhering to the process of vaccination, real world checks seem limited. Remember, this is for school only, so she can use the gym.
    It’s an interesting question. Certainly in the U.K. we have very high levels of population with antibodies so you can say that getting the second vaccination won’t much affect the population. But I would argue that for your daughter a second does would boost her immunity. Without going all iSAGE Covid still has potential harms, even in the young, and it can be an unpleasant week of illness. So on balance there is a plausible benefit for a second dose.
    We probably should move away from the idea that two doses = fully vaccinated. That may have been the regime from the trials, but it’s not a magic formula.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    edited February 2022
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    At this moment, which of the following individuals do you think would be the better Prime Minister for the United Kingdom?

    Johnson:Sunak (R&W)

    East Midlands 35:37
    South East 34:34
    London 32:44
    Wales 28:37
    South West 28:40
    Eastern 28:45
    West Midlands 27:39
    North West 27:39
    North East 23:48
    Yorkshire & Humber 21:49
    Scotland 18:48

    Johnson fails to win a single area.

    Thanks to all other parties having an opinion.

    Do you have the same for Tory 19 voters only?
    I didn't realise that was controversial.
    Next those filthy liberals and socialists will be demanding the vote.
    What now Farooq? 🙂. Can’t say I disagree because I don’t even understand your point

    Of course if you keep beating your enemy they would want you replaced? Without being a Tory voter I asked a fair question, what’s the same table of Tory vote only, as that’s the one that could really put pressure on.

    Nb. I suspect in this type of polling gives unfair advantage to incumbent, better name recognition, and better the devil you know.
    We agree
    LOL 👍🏻

    So your avatar, some sort of detail of picture, guess the painting game?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    LA is also rather enthusiastic about mask mandates, even as California has removed its requirement.

    Orange County by contrast had basically given up on masks even before California lifted its ban.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    LA is also rather enthusiastic about mask mandates, even as California has removed its requirement.

    Orange County by contrast had basically given up on masks even before California lifted its ban.
    The problem is that I went to OC once, and it was closed.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,955
    edited February 2022
    Amazing intel drop, RAF is running a supersonic ASW plane.
    Not to mention that there are 'Scots' anti-submarine planes.


  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    At this moment, which of the following individuals do you think would be the better Prime Minister for the United Kingdom?

    Johnson:Sunak (R&W)

    East Midlands 35:37
    South East 34:34
    London 32:44
    Wales 28:37
    South West 28:40
    Eastern 28:45
    West Midlands 27:39
    North West 27:39
    North East 23:48
    Yorkshire & Humber 21:49
    Scotland 18:48

    Johnson fails to win a single area.

    Thanks to all other parties having an opinion.

    Do you have the same for Tory 19 voters only?
    I didn't realise that was controversial.
    Next those filthy liberals and socialists will be demanding the vote.
    What now Farooq? 🙂. Can’t say I disagree because I don’t even understand your point

    Of course if you keep beating your enemy they would want you replaced? Without being a Tory voter I asked a fair question, what’s the same table of Tory vote only, as that’s the one that could really put pressure on.

    Nb. I suspect in this type of polling gives unfair advantage to incumbent, better name recognition, and better the devil you know.
    We agree
    LOL 👍🏻

    So your avatar, some sort of detail of picture, guess the painting game?
    Was gonnae say Fragonard but on checking it appears to be Boucher. Those French lads knew their erotic stuff.
  • [snip]
    It seems possible too that the YMCA will drop their requirement very soon. It will be kind of insulting to be forced to subject my daughter to a medical requirement which may be shortly abandoned…

    🤔

    I'd have thought it would be more insulting to subject her to forgery, but there we go.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    Oh I don’t deny that the antivaxxers are bloody lucky that there aren’t too many of them otherwise it would have taken a long time to get through this (repeated lockdowns and reopenings until enough people had some immunity). Indeed, Sajid Javid made precisely this argument in respect to Djokovic.

    But I’m not sure quite what’s to be gained from caring about COVID vaccination status, to be honest.

    I’d argue there’s much more of a case for saying that not getting your child vaccinated (MMR etc) should be considered child abuse.
    I have a practical example in my own life worth sharing.

    The school has made it compulsory that my 7 year-old daughter get her second vaccination by the end of this month. The reason is that she cannot use the YMCA facilities without it.

    I don’t believe there is any epidemiological rationale for a second vaccination (and I’m not even sure about the first, which we had to administer at the beginning of January).

    My wife - not an instinctive rule breaker - has suggested we forge a second vax card, and in discussion with another set of parents it seems they have similar thoughts.

    It seems possible too that the YMCA will drop their requirement very soon too.

    🤔
    What do you see as the downside to getting your daughter he 2nd vaccination?
    She hates needles.
    And it is unnecessary?

    I strongly believe in vaxxing right up to the point where it is not necessary, then I strongly don’t believe in vaxxing.
    I am confused by this. I thought you thought people should get vaccinated to protect others? Do you give kids a pass on that?
    The point of vaccination is two-fold.
    First, to save oneself.
    Second, to save others.

    The first becomes less important the younger you are.

    The second becomes less important as the rest of society vaccinates.

    My daughter is vaccinated once already. New York is highly vaccinated. I don’t believe a second vaccination can easily be justified on either of these two grounds.
    Still, forging a vaccination certificate is a seriously BAD idea.
    Is it though.

    Do you mean morally or practically?
    The insistence seems to be on adhering to the process of vaccination, real world checks seem limited. Remember, this is for school only, so she can use the gym.
    It’s an interesting question. Certainly in the U.K. we have very high levels of population with antibodies so you can say that getting the second vaccination won’t much affect the population. But I would argue that for your daughter a second does would boost her immunity. Without going all iSAGE Covid still has potential harms, even in the young, and it can be an unpleasant week of illness. So on balance there is a plausible benefit for a second dose.
    We probably should move away from the idea that two doses = fully vaccinated. That may have been the regime from the trials, but it’s not a magic formula.
    Apart from those who are against vaccines altogether, there's a pretty broad consensus that you need two (and preferably the booster) to be protected. There's a small chance even at 7 that your daughter will become seriously ill, and it's more likely than not that she'll become somewhat ill if you don't do it, with virtually no downside except that she doesn't like needles - which of course is understandable, but perhaps isn't worth getting sick for? But whatever you decide, please don't forge a certificate - that would be wildly irresponsible (because it encourages vulnerable people to feel contact with your daughter is safe when it isn't) and in many countries, including the US and the UK, would be a criminal offence.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    LA is also rather enthusiastic about mask mandates, even as California has removed its requirement.

    Orange County by contrast had basically given up on masks even before California lifted its ban.
    Given Orange County voted 44% for Trump but LA County voted just 26% for Trump that is not that surprising
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    Oh I don’t deny that the antivaxxers are bloody lucky that there aren’t too many of them otherwise it would have taken a long time to get through this (repeated lockdowns and reopenings until enough people had some immunity). Indeed, Sajid Javid made precisely this argument in respect to Djokovic.

    But I’m not sure quite what’s to be gained from caring about COVID vaccination status, to be honest.

    I’d argue there’s much more of a case for saying that not getting your child vaccinated (MMR etc) should be considered child abuse.
    I have a practical example in my own life worth sharing.

    The school has made it compulsory that my 7 year-old daughter get her second vaccination by the end of this month. The reason is that she cannot use the YMCA facilities without it.

    I don’t believe there is any epidemiological rationale for a second vaccination (and I’m not even sure about the first, which we had to administer at the beginning of January).

    My wife - not an instinctive rule breaker - has suggested we forge a second vax card, and in discussion with another set of parents it seems they have similar thoughts.

    It seems possible too that the YMCA will drop their requirement very soon too.

    🤔
    What do you see as the downside to getting your daughter he 2nd vaccination?
    She hates needles.
    And it is unnecessary?

    I strongly believe in vaxxing right up to the point where it is not necessary, then I strongly don’t believe in vaxxing.
    I am confused by this. I thought you thought people should get vaccinated to protect others? Do you give kids a pass on that?
    The point of vaccination is two-fold.
    First, to save oneself.
    Second, to save others.

    The first becomes less important the younger you are.

    The second becomes less important as the rest of society vaccinates.

    My daughter is vaccinated once already. New York is highly vaccinated. I don’t believe a second vaccination can easily be justified on either of these two grounds.
    Still, forging a vaccination certificate is a seriously BAD idea.
    Is it though.

    Do you mean morally or practically?
    The insistence seems to be on adhering to the process of vaccination, real world checks seem limited. Remember, this is for school only, so she can use the gym.
    It’s an interesting question. Certainly in the U.K. we have very high levels of population with antibodies so you can say that getting the second vaccination won’t much affect the population. But I would argue that for your daughter a second does would boost her immunity. Without going all iSAGE Covid still has potential harms, even in the young, and it can be an unpleasant week of illness. So on balance there is a plausible benefit for a second dose.
    We probably should move away from the idea that two doses = fully vaccinated. That may have been the regime from the trials, but it’s not a magic formula.
    Apart from those who are against vaccines altogether, there's a pretty broad consensus that you need two (and preferably the booster) to be protected. There's a small chance even at 7 that your daughter will become seriously ill, and it's more likely than not that she'll become somewhat ill if you don't do it, with virtually no downside except that she doesn't like needles - which of course is understandable, but perhaps isn't worth getting sick for? But whatever you decide, please don't forge a certificate - that would be wildly irresponsible (because it encourages vulnerable people to feel contact with your daughter is safe when it isn't) and in many countries, including the US and the UK, would be a criminal offence.
    This is a good response, and covers a couple of angles I hadn’t considered.
    Thank-you.
  • On topic: I hate to say this, but @HYUFD is right. Sunak does not have a commanding lead, or one sufficient to push desperate Tory MPs into taking the necessary action. Of course, that's looking only at the short term; in the medium term, the longer they delay ditching Boris, the worse it's going to get.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited February 2022

    On topic: I hate to say this, but @HYUFD is right. Sunak does not have a commanding lead, or one sufficient to push desperate Tory MPs into taking the necessary action. Of course, that's looking only at the short term; in the medium term, the longer they delay ditching Boris, the worse it's going to get.

    As you say, the time period is critical.
    If I’m honest; as a resolute opponent of this government, Rishi is the only one I “fear” as a replacement.

    He shows disconcerting signs of fast learning.
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    At this moment, which of the following individuals do you think would be the better Prime Minister for the United Kingdom?

    Johnson:Sunak (R&W)

    East Midlands 35:37
    South East 34:34
    London 32:44
    Wales 28:37
    South West 28:40
    Eastern 28:45
    West Midlands 27:39
    North West 27:39
    North East 23:48
    Yorkshire & Humber 21:49
    Scotland 18:48

    Johnson fails to win a single area.

    Thanks to all other parties having an opinion.

    Do you have the same for Tory 19 voters only?
    I didn't realise that was controversial.
    Next those filthy liberals and socialists will be demanding the vote.
    What now Farooq? 🙂. Can’t say I disagree because I don’t even understand your point

    Of course if you keep beating your enemy they would want you replaced? Without being a Tory voter I asked a fair question, what’s the same table of Tory vote only, as that’s the one that could really put pressure on.

    Nb. I suspect in this type of polling gives unfair advantage to incumbent, better name recognition, and better the devil you know.
    We agree
    LOL 👍🏻

    So your avatar, some sort of detail of picture, guess the painting game?
    Was gonnae say Fragonard but on checking it appears to be Boucher. Those French lads knew their erotic stuff.
    The Guardian prompted me to look at The Swing today, a painting I'd hitherto only glimpsed from Frozen. And it's really quite horrible. Her leg (the flexed one, still shoed) doesn't line up with the seat. The whole thing is weirdly saccharine. And the woman's got a slightly mad quality, like the lovechild of Michael Gove and Ardal O'Hanlon, that disturbs me.
    I’d agree it’s probably over the line from erotic to pervy. Still, one man’s pervy..
  • Farooq said:

    On topic: I hate to say this, but @HYUFD is right. Sunak does not have a commanding lead, or one sufficient to push desperate Tory MPs into taking the necessary action. Of course, that's looking only at the short term; in the medium term, the longer they delay ditching Boris, the worse it's going to get.

    Just think, if they'd done what needed to be done in December, it would all have been over and done with now. They'd be enjoying a new-leader bounce that might have seen them through to the locals, which could have given then some momentum... they bottled it.
    Many of them seem to have convinced themselves that the sequence of pratfall after pratfall is somehow going to stop if only they can get through the next couple of weeks and Boris remains PM. 'The triumph of hope over experience' barely begins to cover the extent of the delusion.
  • If there were to be a General Election in the United Kingdom tomorrow, how likely would you be to vote? (R&W)

    Certain to vote:

    Scotland 69%
    Wales 67%
    North West 64%
    Yorkshire & Humber 60%
    Eastern 60%
    South East 58%
    South West 56%
    West Midlands 50%
    North East 46%
    East Midlands 42%
    London 32%
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553

    If there were to be a General Election in the United Kingdom tomorrow, how likely would you be to vote? (R&W)

    Certain to vote:

    Scotland 69%
    Wales 67%
    North West 64%
    Yorkshire & Humber 60%
    Eastern 60%
    South East 58%
    South West 56%
    West Midlands 50%
    North East 46%
    East Midlands 42%
    London 32%

    Those are huge differences. Never seen polling data like this before.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    At this moment, which of the following individuals do you think would be the better Prime Minister for the United Kingdom?

    Johnson:Sunak (R&W)

    East Midlands 35:37
    South East 34:34
    London 32:44
    Wales 28:37
    South West 28:40
    Eastern 28:45
    West Midlands 27:39
    North West 27:39
    North East 23:48
    Yorkshire & Humber 21:49
    Scotland 18:48

    Johnson fails to win a single area.

    Thanks to all other parties having an opinion.

    Do you have the same for Tory 19 voters only?
    I didn't realise that was controversial.
    Next those filthy liberals and socialists will be demanding the vote.
    What now Farooq? 🙂. Can’t say I disagree because I don’t even understand your point

    Of course if you keep beating your enemy they would want you replaced? Without being a Tory voter I asked a fair question, what’s the same table of Tory vote only, as that’s the one that could really put pressure on.

    Nb. I suspect in this type of polling gives unfair advantage to incumbent, better name recognition, and better the devil you know.
    We agree
    LOL 👍🏻

    So your avatar, some sort of detail of picture, guess the painting game?
    That was for Leon's benefit. He seems like a foot-fetish kind of guy. I thought him seeing it frequently would make him a nicer person. I was wrong.
    O Murphy. Leon’s favourite nude. How sweet of you! 😌

    My minds just as filthy as Leon’s and my fascination with female nude in art certainly central to my life. But I promised I would clean up my act here if unbanned, so I’ll ask you instead - what do you make Ukraines objections to Minsk Protocol II, should they lay down the Donetsk and Luhansk pleblicites as red lines before further negotiation, or just play for time?
  • Farooq said:

    On topic: I hate to say this, but @HYUFD is right. Sunak does not have a commanding lead, or one sufficient to push desperate Tory MPs into taking the necessary action. Of course, that's looking only at the short term; in the medium term, the longer they delay ditching Boris, the worse it's going to get.

    Just think, if they'd done what needed to be done in December, it would all have been over and done with now. They'd be enjoying a new-leader bounce that might have seen them through to the locals, which could have given then some momentum... they bottled it.
    Many of them seem to have convinced themselves that the sequence of pratfall after pratfall is somehow going to stop if only they can get through the next couple of weeks and Boris remains PM. 'The triumph of hope over experience' barely begins to cover the extent of the delusion.
    Presumably it's a variant on Johnson's ability to say "of course I will stop seeing that trollop, darling" and sound convincing whilst doing so.

    There are people like that, with the charisma to persuade others to act against their best interests.

    Sacary people, that's who they are, and they really shouldn't be let into high office. Though with their charisma...
  • Andy_JS said:

    If there were to be a General Election in the United Kingdom tomorrow, how likely would you be to vote? (R&W)

    Certain to vote:

    Scotland 69%
    Wales 67%
    North West 64%
    Yorkshire & Humber 60%
    Eastern 60%
    South East 58%
    South West 56%
    West Midlands 50%
    North East 46%
    East Midlands 42%
    London 32%

    Those are huge differences. Never seen polling data like this before.
    Certain to vote, by 2019 GE vote:

    SNP 68%
    Lab 65%
    Con 59%
    LD 51%
    DNV 14%
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    FPT:

    Freedom House awards NZ 99/100.

    Also, note that FH focused on “freedom” rather than democracy per se.

    They combine scores for "political rights" with "civil liberties".

    So Blighty scored 39/40 for PR, and 54/60 for CL (total 93/100) in 2021.
    I have lived in NZ and the UK (and now the USA), and NZ certainly provides a greater level of practical area liberties to its citizens, or at least did until COVID.
    I lived in Auckland for a year in the late 90’s and wouldn’t say I noticed any major differences in practical liberties. Can you give me examples of what you mean?
    I’d start with CCTV (or lack of it) and move on to the relatively trouble-free interactions with government for everyday living (getting a driver’s license, passport, starting a business, going to the doctor) etc.

    NZ is helped by still having a large agricultural sector (farmers don’t like being nanny-stated) and a high trust society also (Scandinavian style).
    Fair enough although I’d describe those mostly as annoyances rather than liberties. As for cctv, I think most people regard them as a a good thing, especially in the context of crime. Note how quickly Wayne Couzens was caught, partly owing to cctv evidence. The Yorkshire ripper would never have been able to do what he did in the modern world.
    I think it’s well established now that British people don’t especially like freedom.
    Really? On what measure? Do you regard cctv as infringing your freedom?
    Yes.
    I think CCTV is an infringement of liberty as well. The only reason there are so many cameras in the UK compared to almost everywhere else is because of the "not bothered" attitude of so many British people.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    Give War A Chance
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    edited February 2022
    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    He had a rather filthy and perverted mind, particularly in his 70’s National Lampoon work. I liked him.

    I have this one and ❤️ It.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Lampoon_Encyclopedia_of_Humor

    But it will be the first one the wokists burn when they take over
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    At this moment, which of the following individuals do you think would be the better Prime Minister for the United Kingdom?

    Johnson:Sunak (R&W)

    East Midlands 35:37
    South East 34:34
    London 32:44
    Wales 28:37
    South West 28:40
    Eastern 28:45
    West Midlands 27:39
    North West 27:39
    North East 23:48
    Yorkshire & Humber 21:49
    Scotland 18:48

    Johnson fails to win a single area.

    Thanks to all other parties having an opinion.

    Do you have the same for Tory 19 voters only?
    I didn't realise that was controversial.
    Next those filthy liberals and socialists will be demanding the vote.
    What now Farooq? 🙂. Can’t say I disagree because I don’t even understand your point

    Of course if you keep beating your enemy they would want you replaced? Without being a Tory voter I asked a fair question, what’s the same table of Tory vote only, as that’s the one that could really put pressure on.

    Nb. I suspect in this type of polling gives unfair advantage to incumbent, better name recognition, and better the devil you know.
    We agree
    LOL 👍🏻

    So your avatar, some sort of detail of picture, guess the painting game?
    That was for Leon's benefit. He seems like a foot-fetish kind of guy. I thought him seeing it frequently would make him a nicer person. I was wrong.
    You obsess and opine about me endlessly. Whether I am present or not. Today you decided I simultaneously have an “eloquent grandeur” yet “a bitter desiccated heart full of hate”. And that was before elevenses and I wasn’t even on the site

    What is to be done? Nothing. I have worked out you are, in some creepy conflicted self-hating way, in love with me. There is nowt I can do about that but wish you well. And get better soon
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    He had a rather filthy and perverted mind, particularly in his 70’s National Lampoon work. I liked him.
    His travel/war writing was brilliant. Better than hunter s thompson by many parsecs
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    He had a rather filthy and perverted mind, particularly in his 70’s National Lampoon work. I liked him.

    I have this one and ❤️ It.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Lampoon_Encyclopedia_of_Humor

    But it will be the first one the wokists burn when they take over
    The serious edge some of his latter pieces had - like "Studying For Our Drugs Test" - actually improved the humour...
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    He had a rather filthy and perverted mind, particularly in his 70’s National Lampoon work. I liked him.
    His travel/war writing was brilliant. Better than hunter s thompson by many parsecs
    With Duke it’s always in back of mind he was making it all up? Though it’s only two books I read. I did learn a bit about characters in 70’s American Politics from Campaign trail 72 I still remember.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    He had a rather filthy and perverted mind, particularly in his 70’s National Lampoon work. I liked him.
    His travel/war writing was brilliant. Better than hunter s thompson by many parsecs
    True, but very different writers - I think the latter a better writer on politics, about which O’Rourke was considerably less obsessed.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    edited February 2022
    Ukraine: interesting set of DDoS attacks on a range of Ukrainian government and banking institutions. Looks to be ongoing.

    Its also a reminder of how a full fledged offensive operation could be seen to start. Large scale disruption of infrastructure without a shot initially being fired.

    The other thing that a lot of people have paid no attention to is that Russian operations often start with some plain clothes actions and Russia will have spent plenty of time prepping in-country networks given their antipathy to Ukraine. The SBU has done some good work in rolling up Russian networks but there are undoubtedly some still there.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    He had a rather filthy and perverted mind, particularly in his 70’s National Lampoon work. I liked him.

    I have this one and ❤️ It.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Lampoon_Encyclopedia_of_Humor

    But it will be the first one the wokists burn when they take over
    The serious edge some of his latter pieces had - like "Studying For Our Drugs Test" - actually improved the humour...
    A lefty journalist friend of mine was sent to interview him at his peak. Mid 90s? PJO was staying in the Dorchester and my friend arrived, obviously nervous and young, at 11am

    PJO answered the hotel door in dressing gown, smoking a full Cuban, drinking a single malt whisky and PJO noticed the clear nerves of my friend said “do you fancy a drink as well?”

    My pal said yes and to this day my friend says it was the most fun interview he ever did and PJO remains for him a total hero despite entirely opposing politics. Because they got drunk and laughed

    I never met him. He seems to have been a genuinely nice guy, along with the brilliantly acid wit
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited February 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    He had a rather filthy and perverted mind, particularly in his 70’s National Lampoon work. I liked him.

    I have this one and ❤️ It.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Lampoon_Encyclopedia_of_Humor

    But it will be the first one the wokists burn when they take over
    The serious edge some of his latter pieces had - like "Studying For Our Drugs Test" - actually improved the humour...
    A lefty journalist friend of mine was sent to interview him at his peak. Mid 90s? PJO was staying in the Dorchester and my friend arrived, obviously nervous and young, at 11am

    PJO answered the hotel door in dressing gown, smoking a full Cuban, drinking a single malt whisky and PJO noticed the clear nerves of my friend said “do you fancy a drink as well?”

    My pal said yes and to this day my friend says it was the most fun interview he ever did and PJO remains for him a total hero despite entirely opposing politics. Because they got drunk and laughed

    I never met him. He seems to have been a genuinely nice guy, along with the brilliantly acid wit
    Yes, plenty of very different folk say he was a nice guy.
    Jeez, he even voted for Hillary.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Yokes said:

    Ukraine: interesting set of DDoS attacks on a range of Ukrainian government and banking institutions. Looks to be ongoing.

    Its also a reminder of how a full fledged offensive operation could be seen to start. Large scale disruption of infrastructure without a shot initially being fired.

    The other thing that a lot of people have paid no attention to is that Russian operations often start with some plain clothes actions and Russia will have spent plenty of time prepping in-country networks given their antipathy to Ukraine. The SBU has done some good work in rolling up Russian networks but there are undoubtedly some still there.

    There's been a fair amount of description in the press and warnings from the US and others of planned false flag operations.

    The cyber attack stuff has been long expected - they've done this before. The Baltics, for example.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    He had a rather filthy and perverted mind, particularly in his 70’s National Lampoon work. I liked him.
    His travel/war writing was brilliant. Better than hunter s thompson by many parsecs
    That's true, but I think Thompson beat him on politics. That said Parliament of Whores is well worth a read for anyone here.
  • Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    He had a rather filthy and perverted mind, particularly in his 70’s National Lampoon work. I liked him.

    I have this one and ❤️ It.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Lampoon_Encyclopedia_of_Humor

    But it will be the first one the wokists burn when they take over
    The serious edge some of his latter pieces had - like "Studying For Our Drugs Test" - actually improved the humour...
    A lefty journalist friend of mine was sent to interview him at his peak. Mid 90s? PJO was staying in the Dorchester and my friend arrived, obviously nervous and young, at 11am

    PJO answered the hotel door in dressing gown, smoking a full Cuban, drinking a single malt whisky and PJO noticed the clear nerves of my friend said “do you fancy a drink as well?”

    My pal said yes and to this day my friend says it was the most fun interview he ever did and PJO remains for him a total hero despite entirely opposing politics. Because they got drunk and laughed

    I never met him. He seems to have been a genuinely nice guy, along with the brilliantly acid wit
    Yes, plenty of very different folk say he was a nice guy.
    Jeez, he even voted for Hillary.
    Sad news.

    NY Times has this quote from him:

    "“The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer and remove the crab grass on your lawn. The Republicans are the party that says government doesn’t work and then get elected and prove it.” "
  • Nothing I can see on BBC website about PJO. Shameful news values.
  • glw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    He had a rather filthy and perverted mind, particularly in his 70’s National Lampoon work. I liked him.
    His travel/war writing was brilliant. Better than hunter s thompson by many parsecs
    That's true, but I think Thompson beat him on politics. That said Parliament of Whores is well worth a read for anyone here.
    "I have only one firm belief about the American political system, and that is this: God is a Republican and Santa Claus is a Democrat.” "
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    He had a rather filthy and perverted mind, particularly in his 70’s National Lampoon work. I liked him.
    His travel/war writing was brilliant. Better than hunter s thompson by many parsecs
    For a moment, I thought you were writing about SeanT's travel writing, Leon ... :dizzy:
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    He had a rather filthy and perverted mind, particularly in his 70’s National Lampoon work. I liked him.

    I have this one and ❤️ It.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Lampoon_Encyclopedia_of_Humor

    But it will be the first one the wokists burn when they take over
    The serious edge some of his latter pieces had - like "Studying For Our Drugs Test" - actually improved the humour...
    A lefty journalist friend of mine was sent to interview him at his peak. Mid 90s? PJO was staying in the Dorchester and my friend arrived, obviously nervous and young, at 11am

    PJO answered the hotel door in dressing gown, smoking a full Cuban, drinking a single malt whisky and PJO noticed the clear nerves of my friend said “do you fancy a drink as well?”

    My pal said yes and to this day my friend says it was the most fun interview he ever did and PJO remains for him a total hero despite entirely opposing politics. Because they got drunk and laughed

    I never met him. He seems to have been a genuinely nice guy, along with the brilliantly acid wit
    “do you fancy a drink as well?”

    Presume you paraphrase, as no American ever uttered that phrase, except a) if gay and/or b) as a joke.

    From P.J. O'Rourke to Joe Rogan . . . what a comedown for US "conservatism" . . .
  • Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    He had a rather filthy and perverted mind, particularly in his 70’s National Lampoon work. I liked him.

    I have this one and ❤️ It.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Lampoon_Encyclopedia_of_Humor

    But it will be the first one the wokists burn when they take over
    The serious edge some of his latter pieces had - like "Studying For Our Drugs Test" - actually improved the humour...
    A lefty journalist friend of mine was sent to interview him at his peak. Mid 90s? PJO was staying in the Dorchester and my friend arrived, obviously nervous and young, at 11am

    PJO answered the hotel door in dressing gown, smoking a full Cuban, drinking a single malt whisky and PJO noticed the clear nerves of my friend said “do you fancy a drink as well?”

    My pal said yes and to this day my friend says it was the most fun interview he ever did and PJO remains for him a total hero despite entirely opposing politics. Because they got drunk and laughed

    I never met him. He seems to have been a genuinely nice guy, along with the brilliantly acid wit
    Yes, plenty of very different folk say he was a nice guy.
    Jeez, he even voted for Hillary.
    iirc he was very unimpressed with Trump.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    Holidays in Hell was superb.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    Oh I don’t deny that the antivaxxers are bloody lucky that there aren’t too many of them otherwise it would have taken a long time to get through this (repeated lockdowns and reopenings until enough people had some immunity). Indeed, Sajid Javid made precisely this argument in respect to Djokovic.

    But I’m not sure quite what’s to be gained from caring about COVID vaccination status, to be honest.

    I’d argue there’s much more of a case for saying that not getting your child vaccinated (MMR etc) should be considered child abuse.
    I have a practical example in my own life worth sharing.

    The school has made it compulsory that my 7 year-old daughter get her second vaccination by the end of this month. The reason is that she cannot use the YMCA facilities without it.

    I don’t believe there is any epidemiological rationale for a second vaccination (and I’m not even sure about the first, which we had to administer at the beginning of January).

    My wife - not an instinctive rule breaker - has suggested we forge a second vax card, and in discussion with another set of parents it seems they have similar thoughts.

    It seems possible too that the YMCA will drop their requirement very soon too.

    🤔
    What do you see as the downside to getting your daughter he 2nd vaccination?
    She hates needles.
    And it is unnecessary?

    I strongly believe in vaxxing right up to the point where it is not necessary, then I strongly don’t believe in vaxxing.
    I am confused by this. I thought you thought people should get vaccinated to protect others? Do you give kids a pass on that?
    The point of vaccination is two-fold.
    First, to save oneself.
    Second, to save others.

    The first becomes less important the younger you are.

    The second becomes less important as the rest of society vaccinates.

    My daughter is vaccinated once already. New York is highly vaccinated. I don’t believe a second vaccination can easily be justified on either of these two grounds.
    Still, forging a vaccination certificate is a seriously BAD idea.
    Is it though.

    Do you mean morally or practically?
    The insistence seems to be on adhering to the process of vaccination, real world checks seem limited. Remember, this is for school only, so she can use the gym.
    Morally.

    I believe you are in the US? Presumably they don't have anything akin to the NHS vaccination certificate, which would be a bit involved to forge.
    We have record cards issued by the FDA which would be trivial to forge if you can get hold of a blank one, or have sufficient Photoshop skills. Some states including NYS have digital certificates as well based on the original records which I think are held by the FDA so it would be easy for the authorities to verify if a suspicious card was legit.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    He had a rather filthy and perverted mind, particularly in his 70’s National Lampoon work. I liked him.

    I have this one and ❤️ It.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Lampoon_Encyclopedia_of_Humor

    But it will be the first one the wokists burn when they take over
    The serious edge some of his latter pieces had - like "Studying For Our Drugs Test" - actually improved the humour...
    A lefty journalist friend of mine was sent to interview him at his peak. Mid 90s? PJO was staying in the Dorchester and my friend arrived, obviously nervous and young, at 11am

    PJO answered the hotel door in dressing gown, smoking a full Cuban, drinking a single malt whisky and PJO noticed the clear nerves of my friend said “do you fancy a drink as well?”

    My pal said yes and to this day my friend says it was the most fun interview he ever did and PJO remains for him a total hero despite entirely opposing politics. Because they got drunk and laughed

    I never met him. He seems to have been a genuinely nice guy, along with the brilliantly acid wit
    “do you fancy a drink as well?”

    Presume you paraphrase, as no American ever uttered that phrase, except a) if gay and/or b) as a joke.

    From P.J. O'Rourke to Joe Rogan . . . what a comedown for US "conservatism" . . .
    I think I read somewhere O’Rourke started out as a lefty for a long while.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    He had a rather filthy and perverted mind, particularly in his 70’s National Lampoon work. I liked him.
    His travel/war writing was brilliant. Better than hunter s thompson by many parsecs
    That's true, but I think Thompson beat him on politics. That said Parliament of Whores is well worth a read for anyone here.
    His stuff about just-post-war Lebanon was brilliant. Ditto Vietnam. Berlin etc

    Also v good on “bachelor furnishing”

    I remember this line

    “If you have a fine chair, it can be enhanced if you throw over it the skin of some wild animal. Like a young blonde”

    Yes yes. Sexist unWoke misogyny. But funny
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    Yokes said:

    Ukraine: interesting set of DDoS attacks on a range of Ukrainian government and banking institutions. Looks to be ongoing.

    Its also a reminder of how a full fledged offensive operation could be seen to start. Large scale disruption of infrastructure without a shot initially being fired.

    The other thing that a lot of people have paid no attention to is that Russian operations often start with some plain clothes actions and Russia will have spent plenty of time prepping in-country networks given their antipathy to Ukraine. The SBU has done some good work in rolling up Russian networks but there are undoubtedly some still there.

    Scottish Bridge Union?

    I know someone who works in the FCO who is a member...
  • Leon said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    He had a rather filthy and perverted mind, particularly in his 70’s National Lampoon work. I liked him.
    His travel/war writing was brilliant. Better than hunter s thompson by many parsecs
    That's true, but I think Thompson beat him on politics. That said Parliament of Whores is well worth a read for anyone here.
    His stuff about just-post-war Lebanon was brilliant. Ditto Vietnam. Berlin etc

    Also v good on “bachelor furnishing”

    I remember this line

    “If you have a fine chair, it can be enhanced if you throw over it the skin of some wild animal. Like a young blonde”

    Yes yes. Sexist unWoke misogyny. But funny
    Probably be cancelled now if he was starting out.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660
    edited February 2022
    https://mobile.twitter.com/CBSWalsh/status/1493688067361849349

    @CBSWalsh

    @CBSDavidMartin reporting US can see Russia units moving out of assembly areas toward the Ukraine border; it looks like Russian military uncoiling in preparation for an invasion

    Odds on the Russians going for it. imvvho
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    edited February 2022
    Leon said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    He had a rather filthy and perverted mind, particularly in his 70’s National Lampoon work. I liked him.
    His travel/war writing was brilliant. Better than hunter s thompson by many parsecs
    That's true, but I think Thompson beat him on politics. That said Parliament of Whores is well worth a read for anyone here.
    His stuff about just-post-war Lebanon was brilliant. Ditto Vietnam. Berlin etc

    Also v good on “bachelor furnishing”

    I remember this line

    “If you have a fine chair, it can be enhanced if you throw over it the skin of some wild animal. Like a young blonde”

    Yes yes. Sexist unWoke misogyny. But funny
    Proper naturally born humour like you are not allowed to have these days. God - how I miss the 70’s. And I wasn’t even born till the nineties.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    He had a rather filthy and perverted mind, particularly in his 70’s National Lampoon work. I liked him.

    I have this one and ❤️ It.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Lampoon_Encyclopedia_of_Humor

    But it will be the first one the wokists burn when they take over
    The serious edge some of his latter pieces had - like "Studying For Our Drugs Test" - actually improved the humour...
    A lefty journalist friend of mine was sent to interview him at his peak. Mid 90s? PJO was staying in the Dorchester and my friend arrived, obviously nervous and young, at 11am

    PJO answered the hotel door in dressing gown, smoking a full Cuban, drinking a single malt whisky and PJO noticed the clear nerves of my friend said “do you fancy a drink as well?”

    My pal said yes and to this day my friend says it was the most fun interview he ever did and PJO remains for him a total hero despite entirely opposing politics. Because they got drunk and laughed

    I never met him. He seems to have been a genuinely nice guy, along with the brilliantly acid wit
    “do you fancy a drink as well?”

    Presume you paraphrase, as no American ever uttered that phrase, except a) if gay and/or b) as a joke.

    From P.J. O'Rourke to Joe Rogan . . . what a comedown for US "conservatism" . . .
    I think I read somewhere O’Rourke started out as a lefty for a long while.
    Indeed - He wrote up his exploits in the Balto Cong (Think Viet Song, but in Baltimore) in one of his books.

    Along with the conversation with his grandmother who was worried he was becoming a Democrat. When he explained that he was a Maoist, she said that was fine. Just as long as he wasn't becoming Democrat....
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    Eabhal said:

    Yokes said:

    Ukraine: interesting set of DDoS attacks on a range of Ukrainian government and banking institutions. Looks to be ongoing.

    Its also a reminder of how a full fledged offensive operation could be seen to start. Large scale disruption of infrastructure without a shot initially being fired.

    The other thing that a lot of people have paid no attention to is that Russian operations often start with some plain clothes actions and Russia will have spent plenty of time prepping in-country networks given their antipathy to Ukraine. The SBU has done some good work in rolling up Russian networks but there are undoubtedly some still there.

    Scottish Bridge Union?

    I know someone who works in the FCO who is a member...
    Everyone knows intelligence agencies use civil society and other groups as fronts. Since you have outed the Scottish Bridge Union as one such front, there will be a scattering of card decks across a wide area as people get offside
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    Oh I don’t deny that the antivaxxers are bloody lucky that there aren’t too many of them otherwise it would have taken a long time to get through this (repeated lockdowns and reopenings until enough people had some immunity). Indeed, Sajid Javid made precisely this argument in respect to Djokovic.

    But I’m not sure quite what’s to be gained from caring about COVID vaccination status, to be honest.

    I’d argue there’s much more of a case for saying that not getting your child vaccinated (MMR etc) should be considered child abuse.
    I have a practical example in my own life worth sharing.

    The school has made it compulsory that my 7 year-old daughter get her second vaccination by the end of this month. The reason is that she cannot use the YMCA facilities without it.

    I don’t believe there is any epidemiological rationale for a second vaccination (and I’m not even sure about the first, which we had to administer at the beginning of January).

    My wife - not an instinctive rule breaker - has suggested we forge a second vax card, and in discussion with another set of parents it seems they have similar thoughts.

    It seems possible too that the YMCA will drop their requirement very soon too.

    🤔
    What do you see as the downside to getting your daughter he 2nd vaccination?
    She hates needles.
    And it is unnecessary?

    I strongly believe in vaxxing right up to the point where it is not necessary, then I strongly don’t believe in vaxxing.
    I am confused by this. I thought you thought people should get vaccinated to protect others? Do you give kids a pass on that?
    The point of vaccination is two-fold.
    First, to save oneself.
    Second, to save others.

    The first becomes less important the younger you are.

    The second becomes less important as the rest of society vaccinates.

    My daughter is vaccinated once already. New York is highly vaccinated. I don’t believe a second vaccination can easily be justified on either of these two grounds.
    Still, forging a vaccination certificate is a seriously BAD idea.
    Is it though.

    Do you mean morally or practically?
    The insistence seems to be on adhering to the process of vaccination, real world checks seem limited. Remember, this is for school only, so she can use the gym.
    Morality or practicality apart, I would not recommend you do that. American law enforcement works on a slightly diluted version of the principle behind the 18th century Black Code: “we probably won’t catch you, but if we do the punishment will be as ridiculously harsh as we can manage”.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332

    https://mobile.twitter.com/CBSWalsh/status/1493688067361849349

    @CBSWalsh

    @CBSDavidMartin reporting US can see Russia units moving out of assembly areas toward the Ukraine border; it looks like Russian military uncoiling in preparation for an invasion

    Odds on the Russians going for it. imvvho

    Posted this fact late last night. They have been moving to final way points for the last 24 hours or so but somehow some in the media thought the announcement of troops going home after exercises suggested a de-escalation when in fact they'd have to have a LOT of trains home to suggest a change of posture.

    Again keep an eye about happenings in Ukraine as much as its borders, signs of internal disruption may time a military attack to around 2-6 hours later.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Yokes said:

    Eabhal said:

    Yokes said:

    Ukraine: interesting set of DDoS attacks on a range of Ukrainian government and banking institutions. Looks to be ongoing.

    Its also a reminder of how a full fledged offensive operation could be seen to start. Large scale disruption of infrastructure without a shot initially being fired.

    The other thing that a lot of people have paid no attention to is that Russian operations often start with some plain clothes actions and Russia will have spent plenty of time prepping in-country networks given their antipathy to Ukraine. The SBU has done some good work in rolling up Russian networks but there are undoubtedly some still there.

    Scottish Bridge Union?

    I know someone who works in the FCO who is a member...
    Everyone knows intelligence agencies use civil society and other groups as fronts. Since you have outed the Scottish Bridge Union as one such front, there will be a scattering of card decks across a wide area as people get offside
    Just so long as you don't reveal the Political Betting Armoured Brigade....
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    Yokes said:

    Eabhal said:

    Yokes said:

    Ukraine: interesting set of DDoS attacks on a range of Ukrainian government and banking institutions. Looks to be ongoing.

    Its also a reminder of how a full fledged offensive operation could be seen to start. Large scale disruption of infrastructure without a shot initially being fired.

    The other thing that a lot of people have paid no attention to is that Russian operations often start with some plain clothes actions and Russia will have spent plenty of time prepping in-country networks given their antipathy to Ukraine. The SBU has done some good work in rolling up Russian networks but there are undoubtedly some still there.

    Scottish Bridge Union?

    I know someone who works in the FCO who is a member...
    Everyone knows intelligence agencies use civil society and other groups as fronts. Since you have outed the Scottish Bridge Union as one such front, there will be a scattering of card decks across a wide area as people get offside
    I just appreciate you're not quite as acronym heavy as our other military know-it-all :P
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Yokes said:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/CBSWalsh/status/1493688067361849349

    @CBSWalsh

    @CBSDavidMartin reporting US can see Russia units moving out of assembly areas toward the Ukraine border; it looks like Russian military uncoiling in preparation for an invasion

    Odds on the Russians going for it. imvvho

    Posted this fact late last night. They have been moving to final way points for the last 24 hours or so but somehow some in the media thought the announcement of troops going home after exercises suggested a de-escalation when in fact they'd have to have a LOT of trains home to suggest a change of posture.

    Again keep an eye about happenings in Ukraine as much as its borders, signs of internal disruption may time a military attack to around 2-6 hours later.
    Yes - Russia is still a train country. Complete with a railway map which is designed around potential conflicts...

    August 1914 - the railway timetables rolled, the French retreated from the frontier to their fortifications.... And everyone waited.
  • Julian Borger
    Joe Biden’s speech sounded like a closing argument, one that had been honed for some time and one that suggested expectations are still high in the White House that Russia will take military action.

    Guardian live blog
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332

    Yokes said:

    Eabhal said:

    Yokes said:

    Ukraine: interesting set of DDoS attacks on a range of Ukrainian government and banking institutions. Looks to be ongoing.

    Its also a reminder of how a full fledged offensive operation could be seen to start. Large scale disruption of infrastructure without a shot initially being fired.

    The other thing that a lot of people have paid no attention to is that Russian operations often start with some plain clothes actions and Russia will have spent plenty of time prepping in-country networks given their antipathy to Ukraine. The SBU has done some good work in rolling up Russian networks but there are undoubtedly some still there.

    Scottish Bridge Union?

    I know someone who works in the FCO who is a member...
    Everyone knows intelligence agencies use civil society and other groups as fronts. Since you have outed the Scottish Bridge Union as one such front, there will be a scattering of card decks across a wide area as people get offside
    Just so long as you don't reveal the Political Betting Armoured Brigade....
    Well you hear those ones before you see them.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    rpjs said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    Oh I don’t deny that the antivaxxers are bloody lucky that there aren’t too many of them otherwise it would have taken a long time to get through this (repeated lockdowns and reopenings until enough people had some immunity). Indeed, Sajid Javid made precisely this argument in respect to Djokovic.

    But I’m not sure quite what’s to be gained from caring about COVID vaccination status, to be honest.

    I’d argue there’s much more of a case for saying that not getting your child vaccinated (MMR etc) should be considered child abuse.
    I have a practical example in my own life worth sharing.

    The school has made it compulsory that my 7 year-old daughter get her second vaccination by the end of this month. The reason is that she cannot use the YMCA facilities without it.

    I don’t believe there is any epidemiological rationale for a second vaccination (and I’m not even sure about the first, which we had to administer at the beginning of January).

    My wife - not an instinctive rule breaker - has suggested we forge a second vax card, and in discussion with another set of parents it seems they have similar thoughts.

    It seems possible too that the YMCA will drop their requirement very soon too.

    🤔
    What do you see as the downside to getting your daughter he 2nd vaccination?
    She hates needles.
    And it is unnecessary?

    I strongly believe in vaxxing right up to the point where it is not necessary, then I strongly don’t believe in vaxxing.
    I am confused by this. I thought you thought people should get vaccinated to protect others? Do you give kids a pass on that?
    The point of vaccination is two-fold.
    First, to save oneself.
    Second, to save others.

    The first becomes less important the younger you are.

    The second becomes less important as the rest of society vaccinates.

    My daughter is vaccinated once already. New York is highly vaccinated. I don’t believe a second vaccination can easily be justified on either of these two grounds.
    Still, forging a vaccination certificate is a seriously BAD idea.
    Is it though.

    Do you mean morally or practically?
    The insistence seems to be on adhering to the process of vaccination, real world checks seem limited. Remember, this is for school only, so she can use the gym.
    Morally.

    I believe you are in the US? Presumably they don't have anything akin to the NHS vaccination certificate, which would be a bit involved to forge.
    We have record cards issued by the FDA which would be trivial to forge if you can get hold of a blank one, or have sufficient Photoshop skills. Some states including NYS have digital certificates as well based on the original records which I think are held by the FDA so it would be easy for the authorities to verify if a suspicious card was legit.
    I require a QR code certificate of vaccination to go to Baku. Apparently you can get such in the US by contacting your state health department
  • TimT said:

    rpjs said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Gardenwalker - I’m much more confident of seatbelts benefitting others than I am about COVID vaccines.

    Ha. Interesting.

    I’m a big vax fan. I think you have to work hard to show how we get through the pandemic without mass vaccination.

    I’m in favour of most means to incentivise vaccination, but stop short of compulsory vaccination, except for health workers (who have an obligation to the sick).

    It’s interesting to see how haphazard various governments have been in their application of covid rules, whether from a liberal perspective or indeed from an epidemiological perspective.

    New York ended its “mask mandate” last Thursday, but my apartment block only did the same today. Mask wearing in New York seems much more enthusiastic than it was in London.

    Oh I don’t deny that the antivaxxers are bloody lucky that there aren’t too many of them otherwise it would have taken a long time to get through this (repeated lockdowns and reopenings until enough people had some immunity). Indeed, Sajid Javid made precisely this argument in respect to Djokovic.

    But I’m not sure quite what’s to be gained from caring about COVID vaccination status, to be honest.

    I’d argue there’s much more of a case for saying that not getting your child vaccinated (MMR etc) should be considered child abuse.
    I have a practical example in my own life worth sharing.

    The school has made it compulsory that my 7 year-old daughter get her second vaccination by the end of this month. The reason is that she cannot use the YMCA facilities without it.

    I don’t believe there is any epidemiological rationale for a second vaccination (and I’m not even sure about the first, which we had to administer at the beginning of January).

    My wife - not an instinctive rule breaker - has suggested we forge a second vax card, and in discussion with another set of parents it seems they have similar thoughts.

    It seems possible too that the YMCA will drop their requirement very soon too.

    🤔
    What do you see as the downside to getting your daughter he 2nd vaccination?
    She hates needles.
    And it is unnecessary?

    I strongly believe in vaxxing right up to the point where it is not necessary, then I strongly don’t believe in vaxxing.
    I am confused by this. I thought you thought people should get vaccinated to protect others? Do you give kids a pass on that?
    The point of vaccination is two-fold.
    First, to save oneself.
    Second, to save others.

    The first becomes less important the younger you are.

    The second becomes less important as the rest of society vaccinates.

    My daughter is vaccinated once already. New York is highly vaccinated. I don’t believe a second vaccination can easily be justified on either of these two grounds.
    Still, forging a vaccination certificate is a seriously BAD idea.
    Is it though.

    Do you mean morally or practically?
    The insistence seems to be on adhering to the process of vaccination, real world checks seem limited. Remember, this is for school only, so she can use the gym.
    Morally.

    I believe you are in the US? Presumably they don't have anything akin to the NHS vaccination certificate, which would be a bit involved to forge.
    We have record cards issued by the FDA which would be trivial to forge if you can get hold of a blank one, or have sufficient Photoshop skills. Some states including NYS have digital certificates as well based on the original records which I think are held by the FDA so it would be easy for the authorities to verify if a suspicious card was legit.
    I require a QR code certificate of vaccination to go to Baku. Apparently you can get such in the US by contacting your state health department
    Baku VacQ
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    Eabhal said:

    Yokes said:

    Eabhal said:

    Yokes said:

    Ukraine: interesting set of DDoS attacks on a range of Ukrainian government and banking institutions. Looks to be ongoing.

    Its also a reminder of how a full fledged offensive operation could be seen to start. Large scale disruption of infrastructure without a shot initially being fired.

    The other thing that a lot of people have paid no attention to is that Russian operations often start with some plain clothes actions and Russia will have spent plenty of time prepping in-country networks given their antipathy to Ukraine. The SBU has done some good work in rolling up Russian networks but there are undoubtedly some still there.

    Scottish Bridge Union?

    I know someone who works in the FCO who is a member...
    Everyone knows intelligence agencies use civil society and other groups as fronts. Since you have outed the Scottish Bridge Union as one such front, there will be a scattering of card decks across a wide area as people get offside
    I just appreciate you're not quite as acronym heavy as our other military know-it-all :P
    All joking aside, things out east are genuinely worrying. You can't keep forces stationed at final assembly points for long because you end up potentially giving away your attack points and give your opponents time to react, so you either use or go home.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    Eabhal said:

    Yokes said:

    Ukraine: interesting set of DDoS attacks on a range of Ukrainian government and banking institutions. Looks to be ongoing.

    Its also a reminder of how a full fledged offensive operation could be seen to start. Large scale disruption of infrastructure without a shot initially being fired.

    The other thing that a lot of people have paid no attention to is that Russian operations often start with some plain clothes actions and Russia will have spent plenty of time prepping in-country networks given their antipathy to Ukraine. The SBU has done some good work in rolling up Russian networks but there are undoubtedly some still there.

    Scottish Bridge Union?

    I know someone who works in the FCO who is a member...
    Everyone knows intelligence agencies use civil society and other groups as fronts. Since you have outed the Scottish Bridge Union as one such front, there will be a scattering of card decks across a wide area as people get offside
    Just so long as you don't reveal the Political Betting Armoured Brigade....
    Well you hear those ones before you see them.
    Not if Dura Ace is driving.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    edited February 2022

    Leon said:

    P J O’Rourke. RIP

    he influenced, crucially. a whole generation of writers

    Ah. Sad

    He had a rather filthy and perverted mind, particularly in his 70’s National Lampoon work. I liked him.

    I have this one and ❤️ It.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Lampoon_Encyclopedia_of_Humor

    But it will be the first one the wokists burn when they take over
    I actually got it for next to nothing in a charity shop, and it is very second hand, its cool how such things end up more dear to you than those you paid good money to own, as soon As I turned it over and saw illustration on the back it was mine.

    Deleted - I don’t want another ban.

    One strip inside I really can flag up, as it kind of topical as Kiev government can do with these ladies - BDSM cowgirl lovers, who wipe out all the Nazi invaders whilst talking through crisis in their relationship at the same time!

    https://the-comics-journal.sfo3.digitaloceanspaces.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/heath_9.jpg

    I know what some of you are thinking: a day can’t be a wasted day, when you see a fine drawing of a tank. 😘
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    edited February 2022
    Putin is playing the West like a fiddle at the moment isn't he. Western leaders queuing up to meet him, one by one.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    Andy_JS said:

    Putin is playing the West like a fiddle at the moment isn't he. Western leaders queuing up to meet him, one by one.

    Only one country Putin wants to hear from and that's the US, the rest can talk and suggest all they like. The one country that hasn't rushed to his door is, funnily enough, the US.
  • Really sad to read about the death of PJ O'Rourke. To my mind the best American writer since Hunter S Thompson. I have avidly read every one of his books over the last 30 years or more and, by strange, sad coincidence have been rereading Holidays in Hell the last few days. A huge loss.
  • My all time favourite O'Rourke quote from Holidays in Hell

    "The world is built on discrimination of the most horrible kind. The problem with South Africans is they admit it. They don’t say, like the French, “Algerians have a legal right to live in the sixteenth arrondissement, but they can’t afford to.” They don’t say, like the Israelis, “Arabs have a legal right to live in West Jerusalem, but they’re afraid to.” They don’t say, like the Americans, “Indians have a legal right to live in Ohio, but oops, we killed them all.” The South Africans just say, “Fuck you.” I believe it’s right there in their constitution: “Article IV: Fuck you. We’re bigots.” We hate them for this. And we’re going to hold indignant demonstrations…until the South Africans learn to stand up and lie like white men."
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    Much of the stories of Russian forward positioning come from one particular front, North/North West of the 'breakaway' republics of Luhansk & Donetsk. In that area less than 20-30 miles from the Ukrainian border is believed to be large elements of the 1st Guards Tank Army, the heaviest concentration of tank and armoured units of the assembled Russian forces around Ukraine

    South of that area, in a straight line, is the largest single concentration the Ukrainian military, based in and around the contact line facing the two breakaway republics. Drive down east of that line, you occupy the breakaway republics. Drive west of it & you potentially cut off that large group of Ukrainian forces from the rest of the country.

    Thanks to the wonder of aircraft tracking websites its perhaps notable that this area appears to be of particular interest to the now nightly US drone flights.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    "We don’t want to say we’re institutionally racist, insists Met Police" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/we-dont-want-to-say-were-institutionally-racist-insists-met-police-xt67lj3rg
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    edited February 2022
    Holidays In Hell has gone to the top of my reading list. Sounds like the sort of book I like to read.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    Yokes said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Putin is playing the West like a fiddle at the moment isn't he. Western leaders queuing up to meet him, one by one.

    Only one country Putin wants to hear from and that's the US, the rest can talk and suggest all they like. The one country that hasn't rushed to his door is, funnily enough, the US.
    Patrick Cockburn in the “i” has been writing ‘Putin is the biggest winner so far’ articles all week.

    “In the last few weeks, the benefits to Russia from its sabre-rattling must have far exceeded the Kremlin’s expectations”

    https://inews.co.uk/news/world/unwinnable-war-ukraine-no-upside-putin-threats-the-west-lining-up-to-listen-1462786

    https://inews.co.uk/news/world/russia-ukraine-conflict-putin-is-biggest-winner-so-far-as-uk-others-fight-enhance-status-1454193

    I’m not sure about all of that.

    But one point he makes I do agree with - to initiate military conflict Putin has to have two basic things, clear goals to achieve, and an exit strategy - what an idiot if he invades with neither, a full on invasion of Ukraine will end up in an open ended mess. However if Putin continues to get more European and Ukraine support for implementing Minsk Protocols II - particularly Donetsk and Luhansk Pleblicites on autonomy - he has something tangible to work with without lumbering himself with a mess. Rather than craving dialogue with Washington, Putin’s design could be to court EU member states instead and distance them from London and Washington to diminish influence of Washington and London. Arguably Washington and London are doing plenty to help Putin, like how Aukus embittered the French? the Afghan debacle wounded Bidens credibility and weakened him? Brexit?

    To say Brexit has played into Putin’s plans will be controversial for many - but in situations like this you need to stand together, speak as one, act as one, anything gets in the way of that doesn’t help? So do we need to hear Boris and Truss talk up togetherness with EU countries a bit more? Visit them for talks on this a bit more?
This discussion has been closed.