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The Midlands region Johnson exceptionalism continues – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited March 2022 in General
imageThe Midlands region Johnson exceptionalism continues – politicalbetting.com

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  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633
    First in the midlands
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Second. Like summat I guess.
  • Disappointed at my fellow Midlanders.

  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    FPT

    I always love the summaries of the conversations between the leaders involved in the Russia-Ukraine stuff. Things like this, from the BBC article:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60370541

    "On Sunday, President Zelensky spoke for nearly an hour by phone with US President Joe Biden. The White House said President Biden reiterated US support for Ukraine, and that both leaders had agreed on "the importance of continuing to pursue diplomacy and deterrence".

    Hopefully they spent an hour talking about more constructive things than "we support you" and "we keep trying diplomacy".
  • Really dont think Wales figures are right everyone I know, not just Labour supporters, thinks he's a c**t.
  • FPT

    I always love the summaries of the conversations between the leaders involved in the Russia-Ukraine stuff. Things like this, from the BBC article:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60370541

    "On Sunday, President Zelensky spoke for nearly an hour by phone with US President Joe Biden. The White House said President Biden reiterated US support for Ukraine, and that both leaders had agreed on "the importance of continuing to pursue diplomacy and deterrence".

    Hopefully they spent an hour talking about more constructive things than "we support you" and "we keep trying diplomacy".

    You're an arse.

    No, you're an arse.

    Your arse is so big they can see it from space.

    But it doesn't smell as much as yours.

    etc etc

  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    Seems to fluctuate a lot
  • valleyboy said:

    Really dont think Wales figures are right everyone I know, not just Labour supporters, thinks he's a c**t.

    Seems difficult to believe there is anyone in Wales who doesn't agree with the c**t view.

    Or anywhere else frankly.

    Has anyone polled Uxbridge?
  • The Tories have been doing surprisingly well in the Midlands for weeks, in the regional breaks. But appallingly in the North.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    ping said:

    Seems to fluctuate a lot

    ??

    Go on, give us a clue: The temperature? Sea level?
  • 1) Sub samples
    2) Andy Street
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    The Tories have been doing surprisingly well in the Midlands for weeks, in the regional breaks. But appallingly in the North.

    It had turned very Tory over the last 10 years, I can well believe it would remain strongest for them. Though as a southerner (not a south-easterner though, thank god), much of the south could dislike Boris but would still always vote heavily Tory. I know always is a strong word, but even Labour people seem blue here.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    FPT

    I always love the summaries of the conversations between the leaders involved in the Russia-Ukraine stuff. Things like this, from the BBC article:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60370541

    "On Sunday, President Zelensky spoke for nearly an hour by phone with US President Joe Biden. The White House said President Biden reiterated US support for Ukraine, and that both leaders had agreed on "the importance of continuing to pursue diplomacy and deterrence".

    Hopefully they spent an hour talking about more constructive things than "we support you" and "we keep trying diplomacy".

    You're an arse.

    No, you're an arse.

    Your arse is so big they can see it from space.

    But it doesn't smell as much as yours.

    etc etc

    If people are right about Biden's capacity then perhaps they spent the time with Biden contratulating Zelensky on his rise from high school teacher to president, and Zelensky reminding Biden that was from his TV show.
  • Grannies are getting weapons training reports BBC news in eastern Ukr.

    Good luck Vlad taking this lot on.

    Quagmire.

  • File this under "not going to happen"

    KYIV, Feb 13 (Reuters) - Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskiy invited U.S. President Joe Biden to visit Ukraine soon when they spoke by phone on Sunday, Zelenskiy's office said.

    Tensions have been rising for weeks over Russia's troop build-up near Ukraine and Washington has said an invasion could happen anytime. Moscow denies planning one.

    "I'm convinced that your arrival in Kyiv in the coming days, which are crucial for stabilising the situation, will be a powerful signal and contribute to de-escalation," the presidential office quoted Zelenskiy as telling Biden.

    The White House declined to comment on the invitation.


    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-leader-invites-biden-visit-soon-2022-02-13/


    Perhaps Zelenskiy's sang froid is not quite so froid.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited February 2022
    BBC Headline: Ukraine seeks meeting with Russia within 48 hours to discuss build-up

    Putin: Absolutely, let's have a 'meeting' in Kharkiv to 'discuss' it. I'll bring an honour guard with me, just 100k of them.
  • vinovino Posts: 169
    The leader ties in my view of the political scene in my area (Ashfield) - voters here seem more concerned with the "non-whiteness" of television especially the adverts
  • Hang on! Are these figures from Opinium's new Tory-friendly methodology??
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    edited February 2022

    FPT

    I always love the summaries of the conversations between the leaders involved in the Russia-Ukraine stuff. Things like this, from the BBC article:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60370541

    "On Sunday, President Zelensky spoke for nearly an hour by phone with US President Joe Biden. The White House said President Biden reiterated US support for Ukraine, and that both leaders had agreed on "the importance of continuing to pursue diplomacy and deterrence".

    Hopefully they spent an hour talking about more constructive things than "we support you" and "we keep trying diplomacy".

    You're an arse.

    No, you're an arse.

    Your arse is so big they can see it from space.

    But it doesn't smell as much as yours.

    etc etc

    Actually Stephen Nolan reckons he has a scoop after an interview with the Ukrainian ambassador to the UK where said amabassdor suggested Ukraine could give up its constitutional pledge to achieve NATO membership.

    Is this an authorised kite being flown? A play for time? Or one person who is about to get slapped down by his bosses in Kiev?

    Well, one thing rumoured to have been floated by the French & the Germans in talks with the Russians as a get out was exactly that, Ukraine wouldnt become part of NATO (Ben Wallace's appeasement quote therefore has some context). Thing is, Russia couldnt care less what either of them say, only two countries could make that suggestion and Russia be interested, Ukraine & the USA.

    No evidence as yet either have suggested it. For the Ukrainian government to do so would cause all kinds of issues at home as for many its a concession that will only kick the can down the road, Russia will come back looking more. Zelensky, however, maybe he will blink, who knows.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    kle4 said:

    BBC Headline: Ukraine seeks meeting with Russia within 48 hours to discuss build-up

    Putin: Absolutely, let's have a 'meeting' in Kharkiv to 'discuss' it. I'll bring an honour guard with me, just 100k of them.

    It appears Kiev is now reading the US memos.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Traditionally the Midlands was the swing region in UK general elections now it seems to be becoming safe Conservative.

    Interesting too Starmer has only a narrow lead over Boris in London and Wales but little different from that in the South, the traditional Tory heartland. The fact Starmer's biggest lead over Boris is in Scotland is not a great help to him given the strength of the SNP there
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    Johnson doing surprisingly well vs Starmer in London, which is supposed to be a Labour stronghold these days.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Johnson doing surprisingly well vs Starmer in London, which is supposed to be a Labour stronghold these days.

    Dodgy Opinium methodology methinks...
  • Grannies are getting weapons training reports BBC news in eastern Ukr.

    Good luck Vlad taking this lot on.

    Quagmire.

    Giggity!
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332

    Grannies are getting weapons training reports BBC news in eastern Ukr.

    Good luck Vlad taking this lot on.

    Quagmire.

    Giggity!
    Quagmire being a pilot might be more useful to them.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    edited February 2022
    Does this mean the Tories might do better than expected at the Erdington by-election on 3rd March?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Andy_JS said:

    Does this mean the Tories might do better than expected at the Erdington by-election on 3rd March?

    I think perhaps. However. Birmingham has not a great deal in common with Ashfield or Evesham.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    HYUFD said:

    Traditionally the Midlands was the swing region in UK general elections now it seems to be becoming safe Conservative.

    Interesting too Starmer has only a narrow lead over Boris in London and Wales but little different from that in the South, the traditional Tory heartland. The fact Starmer's biggest lead over Boris is in Scotland is not a great help to him given the strength of the SNP there

    Starmer of course is from the south-east, so maybe not surprising that he's relatively popular there.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805

    ping said:

    Seems to fluctuate a lot

    ??

    Go on, give us a clue: The temperature? Sea level?
    The thread header.

    It wasn’t too long ago we had a thread on Boris losing his lead in the midlands.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    Disappointed in Will Hutton.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/13/dash-for-covid-exit-proves-political-virus-lbertarianism-rampant

    He has a point that Johnson's policy decision seemed to be about nothing more than saving his skin and blindsided all established authorities. Will also seems keen to get back to normal. 'Like most I relish life opening up.' Or does he?

    'while the new normal could never be the normal of pre-pandemic, it was still normal enough..... This dream is where the vast majority would love us to be. Personally, I delight in the escalating return to normality – dinners, lunches with colleagues, getting out and about much more freely – but I am watchful. On buses, trains and tubes, I take care to wear a mask and make sure, if I can, that I sit with others wearing them. I willingly wear a mask in shops, cinema, theatre or going around galleries. I keep my social distance. I enjoy the possibilities of Zoom, a working life organised around online slots, but saving time on travelling. If asked to take a lateral flow test before a large gathering, I happily comply. I live a life as normally as possible – but remain vigilant about the danger of contracting Covid. It’s how I expect to continue.'

    Now he isn't clear if ontinue means indefinite future and it isn't clear whether he sees restrictions applying to men in their 70s like him or if we should all be doing this for ever and eternity. I wonder how Will would have felt in his youth if he had to comply with these impositions on a permanent basis? Over Christmas I was with with my brother and sister in law who have three young children. They aren't overly political people but like many are sick to death of covid. They worry about the impact on their children who've obviously been negatively affected by the pandemic. They were angry at the way those in authority seemed desperate to deny omicron was milder than delta in spite of the evidence to the contrary.

    A few days ago I went to see a friend and his partner, both in their early 30s with no kids. I was quite taken aback that my friend had decided against travelling to London due to covid and had been urging his (70ish) mother to only go out once a week, citing no higher authority than Chris Whitty for his concern. His partner's 92 year old grandmother is also part of their close circle and the idea of passing covid on to her horrifies him.

    I do get that. But what are we going to do? Live the rest of our lives as semi hermits at the behest of the very old and clinically vulnerable? It isn't entirely obvious that would be a very healthy strategy either. Getting infected with a mild variant of covid might help protect you against a nastier one that comes along later. People's general immunity could be weakening significantly.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    continued....

    One other thing is that it is disappointing to see a numerate fellow like Hutton fall for the 'models were wrong because people changed their behaviour' line. I'm sure less socialising slowed the spread of omicron but the only difference that should make to the modelling is that the cases and deaths are simply deferred. Yet it is clear that cases spiked and are on the way down as are deaths. Anyone who saw the case fatality ratio from South Africa fall through the floor should have been aware of that by Christmas. Voluntary measures do not indicate thousands of lives saved per day.
  • Great to join ⁦@BBCWorld⁩ and emphasize:

    1. The Putin crisis is NOT about NATO, but about Putin retaining power
    2. It is incumbent upon Putin and only Putin to back down
    3. The costs of an escalated invasion of Ukraine will be devastating


    https://twitter.com/apmassaro3/status/1492684639261106176
  • Andy_JS said:

    Does this mean the Tories might do better than expected at the Erdington by-election on 3rd March?

    Dodgy Opinium methodology, methinks...
  • dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does this mean the Tories might do better than expected at the Erdington by-election on 3rd March?

    I think perhaps. However. Birmingham has not a great deal in common with Ashfield or Evesham.
    I went to school in Evesham. Nowhere has much in common with Evesham!
  • Liam Halligan@LiamHalliganWhen sky-high household energy bills land on nation’s collective doormat in April, the atmosphere could turn nasty - protests & non-payment

    Cost of living crisis - more inflation, tax rises & above all energy bills - will convulse politics just ahead of May local elections 1/4

    https://mobile.twitter.com/LiamHalligan/status/1492963334550953987
  • If you think the current Cabinet are a bunch of corrupt, talentless, mendacious, useless nitwits....you should read about some of the chancers George III had to work with:

    https://www.waterstones.com/book/george-iii/andrew-roberts/9780241413333
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523

    Disappointed in Will Hutton.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/13/dash-for-covid-exit-proves-political-virus-lbertarianism-rampant

    He has a point that Johnson's policy decision seemed to be about nothing more than saving his skin and blindsided all established authorities. Will also seems keen to get back to normal. 'Like most I relish life opening up.' Or does he?

    'while the new normal could never be the normal of pre-pandemic, it was still normal enough..... This dream is where the vast majority would love us to be. Personally, I delight in the escalating return to normality – dinners, lunches with colleagues, getting out and about much more freely – but I am watchful. On buses, trains and tubes, I take care to wear a mask and make sure, if I can, that I sit with others wearing them. I willingly wear a mask in shops, cinema, theatre or going around galleries. I keep my social distance. I enjoy the possibilities of Zoom, a working life organised around online slots, but saving time on travelling. If asked to take a lateral flow test before a large gathering, I happily comply. I live a life as normally as possible – but remain vigilant about the danger of contracting Covid. It’s how I expect to continue.'

    Now he isn't clear if ontinue means indefinite future and it isn't clear whether he sees restrictions applying to men in their 70s like him or if we should all be doing this for ever and eternity. I wonder how Will would have felt in his youth if he had to comply with these impositions on a permanent basis? Over Christmas I was with with my brother and sister in law who have three young children. They aren't overly political people but like many are sick to death of covid. They worry about the impact on their children who've obviously been negatively affected by the pandemic. They were angry at the way those in authority seemed desperate to deny omicron was milder than delta in spite of the evidence to the contrary.

    A few days ago I went to see a friend and his partner, both in their early 30s with no kids. I was quite taken aback that my friend had decided against travelling to London due to covid and had been urging his (70ish) mother to only go out once a week, citing no higher authority than Chris Whitty for his concern. His partner's 92 year old grandmother is also part of their close circle and the idea of passing covid on to her horrifies him.

    I do get that. But what are we going to do? Live the rest of our lives as semi hermits at the behest of the very old and clinically vulnerable? It isn't entirely obvious that would be a very healthy strategy either. Getting infected with a mild variant of covid might help protect you against a nastier one that comes along later. People's general immunity could be weakening significantly.

    As always it comes down to individual priorities and what we find bothersome. I don't like wearing a mask but putting one on for public transport and shops is no big deal, and I don't mind doing it forever, like (IIRC) many people in Japan. Similarly, with my desk job working from home is fine - we'll probably go back for 2 days a week from April, but I don't really care. On the other hand, I do miss socialising with friends, so I'm no longer turning down invitations, and I'm having people round now and then. Essentially I'm being a bit careful but not letting it spoil what I enjoy.

    That's a pretty common view, I think, talking to friends and colleagues, including much younger ones. But some people weight the pros and cons differently - I know one woman in her 20s who really hates masks and won't wear them anywhere, but is so averse to mingling with a group that she's giving up her job for one that she can do at home. But most people have reverted to normal socialising and reserve any caution for the un-fun things like travelling and supermarkets.

    I don't see much harm in any of this - if we all do what we think best and don't tell each other off for doing something different, that's something we can keep up indefinitely. I don't think people should come in to work with Covid, but they shouldn't come in with flu either - death to presenteeism! I do notice that I've not had a cold or any other infectious disease since the pandemic started, and I wonder how much we pick up in "normal" life.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    Disappointed in Will Hutton.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/13/dash-for-covid-exit-proves-political-virus-lbertarianism-rampant

    He has a point that Johnson's policy decision seemed to be about nothing more than saving his skin and blindsided all established authorities. Will also seems keen to get back to normal. 'Like most I relish life opening up.' Or does he?

    'while the new normal could never be the normal of pre-pandemic, it was still normal enough..... This dream is where the vast majority would love us to be. Personally, I delight in the escalating return to normality – dinners, lunches with colleagues, getting out and about much more freely – but I am watchful. On buses, trains and tubes, I take care to wear a mask and make sure, if I can, that I sit with others wearing them. I willingly wear a mask in shops, cinema, theatre or going around galleries. I keep my social distance. I enjoy the possibilities of Zoom, a working life organised around online slots, but saving time on travelling. If asked to take a lateral flow test before a large gathering, I happily comply. I live a life as normally as possible – but remain vigilant about the danger of contracting Covid. It’s how I expect to continue.'

    Now he isn't clear if ontinue means indefinite future and it isn't clear whether he sees restrictions applying to men in their 70s like him or if we should all be doing this for ever and eternity. I wonder how Will would have felt in his youth if he had to comply with these impositions on a permanent basis? Over Christmas I was with with my brother and sister in law who have three young children. They aren't overly political people but like many are sick to death of covid. They worry about the impact on their children who've obviously been negatively affected by the pandemic. They were angry at the way those in authority seemed desperate to deny omicron was milder than delta in spite of the evidence to the contrary.

    A few days ago I went to see a friend and his partner, both in their early 30s with no kids. I was quite taken aback that my friend had decided against travelling to London due to covid and had been urging his (70ish) mother to only go out once a week, citing no higher authority than Chris Whitty for his concern. His partner's 92 year old grandmother is also part of their close circle and the idea of passing covid on to her horrifies him.

    I do get that. But what are we going to do? Live the rest of our lives as semi hermits at the behest of the very old and clinically vulnerable? It isn't entirely obvious that would be a very healthy strategy either. Getting infected with a mild variant of covid might help protect you against a nastier one that comes along later. People's general immunity could be weakening significantly.

    This column that makes me relieved that we have a conservative government. Were people like Hutton to be in charge (as they are in Wales, for instance) the restrictions would go on and on indefinetly.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    For anyone looking a sign of visible 'we are standing firm' indicators from the US, keep an eye out for strategic bomber flights over Europe.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    edited February 2022
    darkage said:

    Disappointed in Will Hutton.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/13/dash-for-covid-exit-proves-political-virus-lbertarianism-rampant

    He has a point that Johnson's policy decision seemed to be about nothing more than saving his skin and blindsided all established authorities. Will also seems keen to get back to normal. 'Like most I relish life opening up.' Or does he?

    'while the new normal could never be the normal of pre-pandemic, it was still normal enough..... This dream is where the vast majority would love us to be. Personally, I delight in the escalating return to normality – dinners, lunches with colleagues, getting out and about much more freely – but I am watchful. On buses, trains and tubes, I take care to wear a mask and make sure, if I can, that I sit with others wearing them. I willingly wear a mask in shops, cinema, theatre or going around galleries. I keep my social distance. I enjoy the possibilities of Zoom, a working life organised around online slots, but saving time on travelling. If asked to take a lateral flow test before a large gathering, I happily comply. I live a life as normally as possible – but remain vigilant about the danger of contracting Covid. It’s how I expect to continue.'

    Now he isn't clear if ontinue means indefinite future and it isn't clear whether he sees restrictions applying to men in their 70s like him or if we should all be doing this for ever and eternity. I wonder how Will would have felt in his youth if he had to comply with these impositions on a permanent basis? Over Christmas I was with with my brother and sister in law who have three young children. They aren't overly political people but like many are sick to death of covid. They worry about the impact on their children who've obviously been negatively affected by the pandemic. They were angry at the way those in authority seemed desperate to deny omicron was milder than delta in spite of the evidence to the contrary.

    A few days ago I went to see a friend and his partner, both in their early 30s with no kids. I was quite taken aback that my friend had decided against travelling to London due to covid and had been urging his (70ish) mother to only go out once a week, citing no higher authority than Chris Whitty for his concern. His partner's 92 year old grandmother is also part of their close circle and the idea of passing covid on to her horrifies him.

    I do get that. But what are we going to do? Live the rest of our lives as semi hermits at the behest of the very old and clinically vulnerable? It isn't entirely obvious that would be a very healthy strategy either. Getting infected with a mild variant of covid might help protect you against a nastier one that comes along later. People's general immunity could be weakening significantly.

    This column that makes me relieved that we have a conservative government. Were people like Hutton to be in charge (as they are in Wales, for instance) the restrictions would go on and on indefinetly.
    Corbyn would have put Pagel and Reicher in a covid 'war' cabinet.

    We would be in our 24 month of lockdown by now.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited February 2022
    Yokes said:

    For anyone looking a sign of visible 'we are standing firm' indicators from the US, keep an eye out for strategic bomber flights over Europe.

    BREAKING NEWS | It is understood that two U.S. Air Force B-52 bombers (callsign #CHIEF flight) will shortly be departing RAF Fairford in Britain for a night-time mission over Europe.

    https://twitter.com/geoallison/status/1493001417472319489?s=20&t=qW1S_ved7qaxE9wiQ-zk9Q

    https://www.flightradar24.com/CHIEF11/2acfb49d
  • Yokes said:

    For anyone looking a sign of visible 'we are standing firm' indicators from the US, keep an eye out for strategic bomber flights over Europe.

    Or Swift payments to/from Russia being closed down?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    Yokes said:

    For anyone looking a sign of visible 'we are standing firm' indicators from the US, keep an eye out for strategic bomber flights over Europe.

    From RAF Fairford?
  • You should always take sub samples with a pinch of salt, but recent local election results in the Midlands have been surprisingly good for the Tories. As someone else suggested, the Andy Street factor.
    As far as Wales are concerned those figures are rubbish. I never hear positive Johnson comments, even from Tories.
  • Note how Biden uses the word 'swift' when referring to the West's response.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited February 2022

    Yokes said:

    For anyone looking a sign of visible 'we are standing firm' indicators from the US, keep an eye out for strategic bomber flights over Europe.

    From RAF Fairford?
    They've taken off from Brize Norton

    https://www.flightradar24.com/CHIEF12/2acfb501

    Currently heading south west......
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332

    Yokes said:

    For anyone looking a sign of visible 'we are standing firm' indicators from the US, keep an eye out for strategic bomber flights over Europe.

    From RAF Fairford?
    Anywhere, these kind of flights dont happen too often. The arrival of these birds in the UK has been well announced but its the timing of an actual flight across continental Europe that is the thing to watch. Its 100% strategic projection by the US and its been used plenty of times before to send a message.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332

    Yokes said:

    For anyone looking a sign of visible 'we are standing firm' indicators from the US, keep an eye out for strategic bomber flights over Europe.

    Or Swift payments to/from Russia being closed down?
    Apparently thats not on the table due to concerns amongst some European countries of its disportionate impact on their banks.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332

    Yokes said:

    For anyone looking a sign of visible 'we are standing firm' indicators from the US, keep an eye out for strategic bomber flights over Europe.

    From RAF Fairford?
    They've taken off from Brize Norton

    https://www.flightradar24.com/CHIEF12/2acfb501

    Currently heading west......
    But where are they going. Home, Spain, Baltics or South East Europe? Its all about the timing and the flight path.
  • Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    For anyone looking a sign of visible 'we are standing firm' indicators from the US, keep an eye out for strategic bomber flights over Europe.

    From RAF Fairford?
    They've taken off from Brize Norton

    https://www.flightradar24.com/CHIEF12/2acfb501

    Currently heading west......
    But where are they going. Home, Spain, Baltics or South East Europe? Its all about the timing and the flight path.
    I guess they can stay up there a long time.....home would likely be a northerly routing, Spain, avoiding French airspace maybe....there's also an RAF tanker in the air - heading due west - who does it want to refuel over the Atlantic?

    https://www.flightradar24.com/TOW2230/2acfb438
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    edited February 2022
    Farooq said:

    Plane experts: what's going on up here?
    https://www.flightradar24.com/2acfb975

    If its from Lossiemouth possibly a P-8 maritime patrol or recce operation
  • There's also an RAF Globemaster on its way back from Kiev;

    https://www.flightradar24.com/RRR6811/2acf9aa3
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332

    Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    For anyone looking a sign of visible 'we are standing firm' indicators from the US, keep an eye out for strategic bomber flights over Europe.

    From RAF Fairford?
    They've taken off from Brize Norton

    https://www.flightradar24.com/CHIEF12/2acfb501

    Currently heading west......
    But where are they going. Home, Spain, Baltics or South East Europe? Its all about the timing and the flight path.
    I guess they can stay up there a long time.....home would likely be a northerly routing, Spain, avoiding French airspace maybe....there's also an RAF tanker in the air - heading due west - who does it want to refuel over the Atlantic?

    https://www.flightradar24.com/TOW2230/2acfb438
    No idea on that. The US has its own tanker fleet in the UK so it may or may not be related.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    Farooq said:

    Yokes said:

    Farooq said:

    Plane experts: what's going on up here?
    https://www.flightradar24.com/2acfb975

    If its from Lossiemouth possibly a P-8 maritime patrol or recce operation
    So nothing unusual about the "no callsign" info?
    There isnt. It may not broadcast its info and indeed in some cases may provide no ADS-B at all so becoming invisible to the monitoring sites.I think that some of the ADS-B monitoring sites also do pull the punches occasionally on the info they provide.
  • Interesting looking at the Global Hawk unmanned drone that took off from the Med just east of Sicily, flew up over the Balkans and Rumania and has done a wide circuit over Eastern Ukraine. Just now heading back west.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,586
    Wordle 240 6/6

    ⬜⬜🟨⬜⬜
    ⬜🟨🟨⬜⬜
    🟨🟨⬜⬜⬜
    ⬜⬜⬜🟩🟨
    ⬜⬜🟩🟩⬜
    🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

    Bit of a bugger this evening…
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    carnforth said:

    Wordle 240 6/6

    ⬜⬜🟨⬜⬜
    ⬜🟨🟨⬜⬜
    🟨🟨⬜⬜⬜
    ⬜⬜⬜🟩🟨
    ⬜⬜🟩🟩⬜
    🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

    Bit of a bugger this evening…

    4.....
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332

    Interesting looking at the Global Hawk unmanned drone that took off from the Med just east of Sicily, flew up over the Balkans and Rumania and has done a wide circuit over Eastern Ukraine. Just now heading back west.

    They have been running a regular mission for a while now but the night flights are actually relatively new. Its a tempo change that they are now tracking movement under darkness that again serves to illustrate the intelligence collection effort due to the level of concern and indeed the sense of urgency.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153

    FPT

    I always love the summaries of the conversations between the leaders involved in the Russia-Ukraine stuff. Things like this, from the BBC article:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60370541

    "On Sunday, President Zelensky spoke for nearly an hour by phone with US President Joe Biden. The White House said President Biden reiterated US support for Ukraine, and that both leaders had agreed on "the importance of continuing to pursue diplomacy and deterrence".

    Hopefully they spent an hour talking about more constructive things than "we support you" and "we keep trying diplomacy".

    They are both Bengals fans, so presumably they chatted about the upcoming game.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    vino said:

    The leader ties in my view of the political scene in my area (Ashfield) - voters here seem more concerned with the "non-whiteness" of television especially the adverts

    Wait.

    People watch terrestrial television in your area?
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    Just scrolling through Flightradar, one of the more popular ADSB aircraft tracking sites. Their top aircraft tracked all appear to be over Ukraine. The curious thing is how many private jets appear to be going to and from the country at the moment.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does this mean the Tories might do better than expected at the Erdington by-election on 3rd March?

    I think perhaps. However. Birmingham has not a great deal in common with Ashfield or Evesham.
    I went to school in Evesham. Nowhere has much in common with Evesham!
    Pershore?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    Yokes said:

    Just scrolling through Flightradar, one of the more popular ADSB aircraft tracking sites. Their top aircraft tracked all appear to be over Ukraine. The curious thing is how many private jets appear to be going to and from the country at the moment.

    I assume it's wealthy people who would normally fly first class or business hiring private jets instead in order to get out of the country.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Andy_JS said:

    Does this mean the Tories might do better than expected at the Erdington by-election on 3rd March?

    Erdington is a somewhat different socio-economic prospect to the Greater West Midlands of Worcestershire, Warwickshire, Herefordshire, Shropshire and North Staffs which are historically Tory shires. Drive-by shootings are less common in Eardisland than they are in Erdington. And the former industrial East Midlands seem to love Johnson.

    You may be right that the Conservatives take Erdington, but I would be more than surprised.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    carnforth said:

    Wordle 240 6/6

    ⬜⬜🟨⬜⬜
    ⬜🟨🟨⬜⬜
    🟨🟨⬜⬜⬜
    ⬜⬜⬜🟩🟨
    ⬜⬜🟩🟩⬜
    🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

    Bit of a bugger this evening…

    First time I've tried writing one of these things. I'll use G for green and Y for yellow. I got it in 4 tonight:

    XXXXX
    XXXGX
    GXXXY
    GGGGG
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,586
    Andy_JS said:

    carnforth said:

    Wordle 240 6/6

    ⬜⬜🟨⬜⬜
    ⬜🟨🟨⬜⬜
    🟨🟨⬜⬜⬜
    ⬜⬜⬜🟩🟨
    ⬜⬜🟩🟩⬜
    🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

    Bit of a bugger this evening…

    First time I've tried writing one of these things. I'll use G for green and Y for yellow. I got it in 4 tonight:

    XXXXX
    XXXGX
    GXXXY
    GGGGG
    If you go to Share —> Copy on wordle you can then paste it into PB, or anywhere. The coloured blocks are just Unicode characters.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    On topic. next weeks chip wrapping. Boris is gone in seven days.

    Something has fundamentally changed in the Boris Johnson situation. A few weeks ago there was possibility in enough minds, including my own, he could survive this - there is now no possibility he can survive this - that’s the change into peoples minds, including his own by accounts.

    The idea he can break the law, but because he won a majority in a general election that matters more, that argument brings a vote of no confidence, yet it’s the only argument he has left now, it’s come to the end of his filibustering this week. His questionnaire will be filled out and read by investigators and Prosecutors by Friday of this week.

    Boris might survive a VONC. Anything is possible. Don’t know how the Conservatives might appear after that, after endorsing him to stay, and where their poll ratings may go… but I suspect precisely this reasoning why does not survive the vonc.

    This is where we are this morning. It’s straightforward analysis of an evolving picture based on sound logic and timing is it not?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    Off topic. I will now analyse the Ukraine Crisis. To keep it simple, one of two things can happen. Putin’s moved things in place to either use it, or not use it.

    Firstly to use it, to initiate military conflict Putin has to have two basic things, clear goals to achieve, and an exit strategy. But If Putin has a crisp successful, in and out option that achieves clear goals and allows swift end without mission creep, and not dragged into something other than clear goals, it’s not amazingly obvious.

    Therefore we need to seriously think about the second outcome, which I shall call sabre rattling. As the protagonist Putin is in the position of leaving us guessing and analysing. But if he is working to a plan, and goals to achieve, he is a long way ahead of us in his planning and thinking. We have no choice but to keep our minds open to the fact it might be sabre rattling diplomacy from Putin, perhaps to achieve movement on the stalled Minsk Protocols.

    With the emergence of the EU, does NATO have a finite life? Are things naturally moving in such a direction? If this is true or not, Putin doesn’t have to work with this grain, he does have an advantage, unlike Washington, of Russia actually being in Europe.

    If you think back to the Miners strike in the eighties, I was reading about yesterday, the Conservative government won the strike not so much during the strike, but in the years leading up to it by amassing large stocks to ensure miners would be out a long time before having impact. Now could Putin have done similar groundwork in the lead up to this? As Biden proposes to block Nord and European politicians don’t like the sound of that, is this actually things moving as Putin long time planned - to split his fellow European neighbours and EU from Washington and revive the implementation of Minsk Agreements with them, not Washington, London and NATO?

    Whilst Putin doesn’t appear to have goals easily achievable through military action, he will clearly gain a lot if he moves EU and Ukraine towards those Minsk Protocol’s so far not implemented. We have no choice but to consider this, because if he doesn’t initiate military conflict, and we hail ourselves on the triumph of thwarting his invasion - we may actually overlook what Putin’s plan actually has been all along, and crucially still ongoing in the years to come.

    I suggest we monitor the media carefully not just for signs of invasion or false flag operations, but listen to what EU capitals, and the Ukrainian government, are saying about Nord and Minsk Protocols.

    Hope this helps.

    Nite 🙋‍♀️
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    "The Post Office’s Horizon IT system should “never have seen the light of day” and bosses at supplier Fujitsu allowed it to be rolled out into the Post Office network despite being told it was not fit for purpose, according to a senior developer who worked on the project before it went live.

    The developer, who has not previously talked publicly about his experiences on the project, told Computer Weekly that in the months leading up to its launch, Horizon’s problems were well known inside Fujitsu.

    “Everybody in the building by the time I got there knew it was a bag of s**t”, he said. “It had gone through the test labs God knows how many times, and the testers were raising bugs by the thousand.”"

    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The Post Office’s Horizon IT system should “never have seen the light of day” and bosses at supplier Fujitsu allowed it to be rolled out into the Post Office network despite being told it was not fit for purpose, according to a senior developer who worked on the project before it went live.

    The developer, who has not previously talked publicly about his experiences on the project, told Computer Weekly that in the months leading up to its launch, Horizon’s problems were well known inside Fujitsu.

    “Everybody in the building by the time I got there knew it was a bag of s**t”, he said. “It had gone through the test labs God knows how many times, and the testers were raising bugs by the thousand.”"

    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider

    This story gets worse and worse.

    And what's really appalling is that the incompetence at Fujitsu-ICL was so severe that a number of postmasters went to prison for crimes they did not commit. And Fujitsu-UCL tried to cover it up.
    And what makes it worst of all is that none of them have gone to prison, or lost their unearned pensions, or even AFAICS the jobs they are totally unequal to.

    It really is one rule for us and another for them.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60371282

    Kamila Valieva can compete again at the Winter Olympics after the Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas) decided that no provisional suspension should be imposed on the 15-year-old after she failed a drugs test.

    Cas said preventing the Russian figure skater from competing would have caused her "irreparable harm".


    What a mess. The other competitors should consider boycotting the individual event.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The Post Office’s Horizon IT system should “never have seen the light of day” and bosses at supplier Fujitsu allowed it to be rolled out into the Post Office network despite being told it was not fit for purpose, according to a senior developer who worked on the project before it went live.

    The developer, who has not previously talked publicly about his experiences on the project, told Computer Weekly that in the months leading up to its launch, Horizon’s problems were well known inside Fujitsu.

    “Everybody in the building by the time I got there knew it was a bag of s**t”, he said. “It had gone through the test labs God knows how many times, and the testers were raising bugs by the thousand.”"

    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider

    This story gets worse and worse.

    And what's really appalling is that the incompetence at Fujitsu-ICL was so severe that a number of postmasters went to prison for crimes they did not commit. And Fujitsu-UCL tried to cover it up.
    And what makes it worst of all is that none of them have gone to prison, or lost their unearned pensions, or even AFAICS the jobs they are totally unequal to.

    It really is one rule for us and another for them.
    Good morning one and all.

    The Post Office should, surely to God, have realised something was amiss with the system. Surely management should have asked more of Fujitsu-UCL than they did.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The Post Office’s Horizon IT system should “never have seen the light of day” and bosses at supplier Fujitsu allowed it to be rolled out into the Post Office network despite being told it was not fit for purpose, according to a senior developer who worked on the project before it went live.

    The developer, who has not previously talked publicly about his experiences on the project, told Computer Weekly that in the months leading up to its launch, Horizon’s problems were well known inside Fujitsu.

    “Everybody in the building by the time I got there knew it was a bag of s**t”, he said. “It had gone through the test labs God knows how many times, and the testers were raising bugs by the thousand.”"

    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider

    This story gets worse and worse.

    And what's really appalling is that the incompetence at Fujitsu-ICL was so severe that a number of postmasters went to prison for crimes they did not commit. And Fujitsu-UCL tried to cover it up.
    Yes, and all this followed the failure of the first Horizon implementation in the late 90s, launched during the dying years of the Tory government amid fanfares about the futuristic ‘smart card’ that would cover both PO and the Benefits Agency; after Labour took over, the government abandoned its part of the scheme leaving the PO to soldier on alone. Horizon was already a dirty word throughout the PO by the turn of the century and it is remarkable that they went for double or quits with a second implementation.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Andy_JS said:

    "The Post Office’s Horizon IT system should “never have seen the light of day” and bosses at supplier Fujitsu allowed it to be rolled out into the Post Office network despite being told it was not fit for purpose, according to a senior developer who worked on the project before it went live.

    The developer, who has not previously talked publicly about his experiences on the project, told Computer Weekly that in the months leading up to its launch, Horizon’s problems were well known inside Fujitsu.

    “Everybody in the building by the time I got there knew it was a bag of s**t”, he said. “It had gone through the test labs God knows how many times, and the testers were raising bugs by the thousand.”"

    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider

    What a total sh!t-show of a project from start to finish. Those in charge, from PO and the suppliers, need to be held accountable for the failure.

    Senior people at the PO knew the project was a bug-riddled disaster, yet proceeded to hold this sub-postmasters, small business franchisees, legally liable for the accounting errors it was generating.

    That the result was a number of these small businesssmen ending up in prison, and others committing suicide, really needs a public enquiry.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    edited February 2022
    tlg86 said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60371282

    Kamila Valieva can compete again at the Winter Olympics after the Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas) decided that no provisional suspension should be imposed on the 15-year-old after she failed a drugs test.

    Cas said preventing the Russian figure skater from competing would have caused her "irreparable harm".


    What a mess. The other competitors should consider boycotting the individual event.

    There’s all sort of stuff flying around Russian social media on this one.

    Some are saying that the leopard of the Russian Olympic Committee never changes its spots, and others are saying that this particular young lady has been singled out for ‘the novichok treatment’, by the more established members of the squad who don’t want her to succeed.

    A right mess all around, and as much chance of a good solution as Formula 1 has of sorting out their last race.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. 86, what's the point of testing for drugs if you can fail a test and compete anyway?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    edited February 2022
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The Post Office’s Horizon IT system should “never have seen the light of day” and bosses at supplier Fujitsu allowed it to be rolled out into the Post Office network despite being told it was not fit for purpose, according to a senior developer who worked on the project before it went live.

    The developer, who has not previously talked publicly about his experiences on the project, told Computer Weekly that in the months leading up to its launch, Horizon’s problems were well known inside Fujitsu.

    “Everybody in the building by the time I got there knew it was a bag of s**t”, he said. “It had gone through the test labs God knows how many times, and the testers were raising bugs by the thousand.”"

    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider

    What a total sh!t-show of a project from start to finish. Those in charge, from PO and the suppliers, need to be held accountable for the failure.

    Senior people at the PO knew the project was a bug-riddled disaster, yet proceeded to hold this sub-postmasters, small business franchisees, legally liable for the accounting errors it was generating.

    That the result was a number of these small businesssmen ending up in prison, and others committing suicide, really needs a public enquiry.
    The BBC site says that 'The inquiry will look at whether the Post Office knew about about faults in the IT system and will also ask how Post Office staff shouldered the blame.
    It will also ask whether staff at software developer Fujitsu, which developed the Horizon software to complete tasks such as transactions, accounting and stocktaking, knew the system had flaws while data from it was used in court to convict sub-postmasters.
    A judge will hear evidence on why sub-postmasters and postmistresses were singled out and whether they have been justly compensated.'

    I gather witnesses are giving evidence on oath. I suspect we'll see some very dirty secrets come out. There must, too, have been some collusion, and reasons for that collusion, between Post Office staff and the Fujitsu team, if not their management.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The Post Office’s Horizon IT system should “never have seen the light of day” and bosses at supplier Fujitsu allowed it to be rolled out into the Post Office network despite being told it was not fit for purpose, according to a senior developer who worked on the project before it went live.

    The developer, who has not previously talked publicly about his experiences on the project, told Computer Weekly that in the months leading up to its launch, Horizon’s problems were well known inside Fujitsu.

    “Everybody in the building by the time I got there knew it was a bag of s**t”, he said. “It had gone through the test labs God knows how many times, and the testers were raising bugs by the thousand.”"

    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider

    What a total sh!t-show of a project from start to finish. Those in charge, from PO and the suppliers, need to be held accountable for the failure.

    Senior people at the PO knew the project was a bug-riddled disaster, yet proceeded to hold this sub-postmasters, small business franchisees, legally liable for the accounting errors it was generating.

    That the result was a number of these small businesssmen ending up in prison, and others committing suicide, really needs a public enquiry.
    I disagree.

    It needs a criminal inquiry, followed by prosecutions.
    Oh, there definitely need to be prosecutions, but I would start with a detailed fact-finding mission, rather than trusting the police to go in and try and work out what happened.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    edited February 2022
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The Post Office’s Horizon IT system should “never have seen the light of day” and bosses at supplier Fujitsu allowed it to be rolled out into the Post Office network despite being told it was not fit for purpose, according to a senior developer who worked on the project before it went live.

    The developer, who has not previously talked publicly about his experiences on the project, told Computer Weekly that in the months leading up to its launch, Horizon’s problems were well known inside Fujitsu.

    “Everybody in the building by the time I got there knew it was a bag of s**t”, he said. “It had gone through the test labs God knows how many times, and the testers were raising bugs by the thousand.”"

    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider

    What a total sh!t-show of a project from start to finish. Those in charge, from PO and the suppliers, need to be held accountable for the failure.

    Senior people at the PO knew the project was a bug-riddled disaster, yet proceeded to hold this sub-postmasters, small business franchisees, legally liable for the accounting errors it was generating.

    That the result was a number of these small businesssmen ending up in prison, and others committing suicide, really needs a public enquiry.
    I disagree.

    It needs a criminal inquiry, followed by prosecutions.
    +1 - some people at senior level need to be being prosecuted for Manslaughter although perverting the course of Justice would probably be easier and result in similar sentences.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    edited February 2022

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The Post Office’s Horizon IT system should “never have seen the light of day” and bosses at supplier Fujitsu allowed it to be rolled out into the Post Office network despite being told it was not fit for purpose, according to a senior developer who worked on the project before it went live.

    The developer, who has not previously talked publicly about his experiences on the project, told Computer Weekly that in the months leading up to its launch, Horizon’s problems were well known inside Fujitsu.

    “Everybody in the building by the time I got there knew it was a bag of s**t”, he said. “It had gone through the test labs God knows how many times, and the testers were raising bugs by the thousand.”"

    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider

    What a total sh!t-show of a project from start to finish. Those in charge, from PO and the suppliers, need to be held accountable for the failure.

    Senior people at the PO knew the project was a bug-riddled disaster, yet proceeded to hold this sub-postmasters, small business franchisees, legally liable for the accounting errors it was generating.

    That the result was a number of these small businesssmen ending up in prison, and others committing suicide, really needs a public enquiry.
    I disagree.

    It needs a criminal inquiry, followed by prosecutions.
    What baffles me about the behaviour of the PO management is the apparent lack of common sense.

    They recruited staff from a very wide range of backgrounds, few if any of whom had any kind of criminal record. Yet the sheer number the PO was accusing implied that they had somehow managed to corner the market in crooked staff. Surely somebody at some point must have said 'This can't be right'. How could any organisation manage to recruit so many fraudelent staff? It would be very difficult even if that's what they were trying to do.

    Never mind all the other obvious failures. The failure to apply common sense seems to be one of the most obvious, extreme and inexplicable.
    Although it does rather presuppose these people had common sense.
  • Disappointed in Will Hutton.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/13/dash-for-covid-exit-proves-political-virus-lbertarianism-rampant

    He has a point that Johnson's policy decision seemed to be about nothing more than saving his skin and blindsided all established authorities. Will also seems keen to get back to normal. 'Like most I relish life opening up.' Or does he?

    'while the new normal could never be the normal of pre-pandemic, it was still normal enough..... This dream is where the vast majority would love us to be. Personally, I delight in the escalating return to normality – dinners, lunches with colleagues, getting out and about much more freely – but I am watchful. On buses, trains and tubes, I take care to wear a mask and make sure, if I can, that I sit with others wearing them. I willingly wear a mask in shops, cinema, theatre or going around galleries. I keep my social distance. I enjoy the possibilities of Zoom, a working life organised around online slots, but saving time on travelling. If asked to take a lateral flow test before a large gathering, I happily comply. I live a life as normally as possible – but remain vigilant about the danger of contracting Covid. It’s how I expect to continue.'

    Now he isn't clear if ontinue means indefinite future and it isn't clear whether he sees restrictions applying to men in their 70s like him or if we should all be doing this for ever and eternity. I wonder how Will would have felt in his youth if he had to comply with these impositions on a permanent basis? Over Christmas I was with with my brother and sister in law who have three young children. They aren't overly political people but like many are sick to death of covid. They worry about the impact on their children who've obviously been negatively affected by the pandemic. They were angry at the way those in authority seemed desperate to deny omicron was milder than delta in spite of the evidence to the contrary.

    A few days ago I went to see a friend and his partner, both in their early 30s with no kids. I was quite taken aback that my friend had decided against travelling to London due to covid and had been urging his (70ish) mother to only go out once a week, citing no higher authority than Chris Whitty for his concern. His partner's 92 year old grandmother is also part of their close circle and the idea of passing covid on to her horrifies him.

    I do get that. But what are we going to do? Live the rest of our lives as semi hermits at the behest of the very old and clinically vulnerable? It isn't entirely obvious that would be a very healthy strategy either. Getting infected with a mild variant of covid might help protect you against a nastier one that comes along later. People's general immunity could be weakening significantly.

    Hi Frank! You mention restrictions above - where is Hutton talking about restrictions? He says that he is happy to wear a mask voluntarily as part of his own decision-making about risk.

    When the mask mandate gets dropped I suspect we will see rather a lot of people continuing to wear then in certain circumstances - 2 years gets you used to things.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,324
    edited February 2022

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does this mean the Tories might do better than expected at the Erdington by-election on 3rd March?

    I think perhaps. However. Birmingham has not a great deal in common with Ashfield or Evesham.
    I went to school in Evesham. Nowhere has much in common with Evesham!
    I live about 15 miles south of Evesham, Alan, and like it very much. It's our favorite nearby town and much prefer it to Cheltenham which is closer.

    Great pizza restaurant in Evesham - Flavours. It's on the North side as you are going out towards Worcester or Stratford.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    edited February 2022
    Interesting article by Trevor Kavanagh in that it's written in such a juvenile style. It could have been written by a none too bright fourteen year old. Maybe it's just the standard on PB is so high?

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17640409/john-major-boris-johnson-attack/?rec_article=true
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    edited February 2022

    Yokes said:

    For anyone looking a sign of visible 'we are standing firm' indicators from the US, keep an eye out for strategic bomber flights over Europe.

    From RAF Fairford?
    They've taken off from Brize Norton

    https://www.flightradar24.com/CHIEF12/2acfb501

    Currently heading south west......
    Chief11 has gone all the way around the Med, and is now south of Cyprus.

    There’s also a US Global Hawk drone Forte12 doing a fair bit of high-level (54,000’) reconnaissance around Western Ukraine at the moment - that it’s doing it with transponder happily skwarking away, suggests it’s a show of intent rather than an offensive mission.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The Post Office’s Horizon IT system should “never have seen the light of day” and bosses at supplier Fujitsu allowed it to be rolled out into the Post Office network despite being told it was not fit for purpose, according to a senior developer who worked on the project before it went live.

    The developer, who has not previously talked publicly about his experiences on the project, told Computer Weekly that in the months leading up to its launch, Horizon’s problems were well known inside Fujitsu.

    “Everybody in the building by the time I got there knew it was a bag of s**t”, he said. “It had gone through the test labs God knows how many times, and the testers were raising bugs by the thousand.”"

    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider

    What a total sh!t-show of a project from start to finish. Those in charge, from PO and the suppliers, need to be held accountable for the failure.

    Senior people at the PO knew the project was a bug-riddled disaster, yet proceeded to hold this sub-postmasters, small business franchisees, legally liable for the accounting errors it was generating.

    That the result was a number of these small businesssmen ending up in prison, and others committing suicide, really needs a public enquiry.
    I disagree.

    It needs a criminal inquiry, followed by prosecutions.
    What baffles me about the behaviour of the PO management is the apparent lack of common sense.

    They recruited staff from a very wide range of backgrounds, few if any of whom had any kind of criminal record. Yet the sheer number the PO was accusing implied that they had somehow managed to corner the market in crooked staff. Surely somebody at some point must have said 'This can't be right'. How could any organisation manage to recruit so many fraudelent staff? It would be very difficult even if that's what they were trying to do.

    Never mind all the other obvious failures. The failure to apply common sense seems to be one of the most obvious, extreme and inexplicable.
    Although it does rather presuppose these people had common sense.
    Mr P-t-P makes a very good point. Not only did these people not have any kind of criminal record but they had references as to their good character.

    I hope the judge gets, and makes public, the minutes of the Board meeting when this issue was discussed.
    As it must have been. Surely.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited February 2022

    Disappointed in Will Hutton.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/13/dash-for-covid-exit-proves-political-virus-lbertarianism-rampant

    He has a point that Johnson's policy decision seemed to be about nothing more than saving his skin and blindsided all established authorities. Will also seems keen to get back to normal. 'Like most I relish life opening up.' Or does he?

    'while the new normal could never be the normal of pre-pandemic, it was still normal enough..... This dream is where the vast majority would love us to be. Personally, I delight in the escalating return to normality – dinners, lunches with colleagues, getting out and about much more freely – but I am watchful. On buses, trains and tubes, I take care to wear a mask and make sure, if I can, that I sit with others wearing them. I willingly wear a mask in shops, cinema, theatre or going around galleries. I keep my social distance. I enjoy the possibilities of Zoom, a working life organised around online slots, but saving time on travelling. If asked to take a lateral flow test before a large gathering, I happily comply. I live a life as normally as possible – but remain vigilant about the danger of contracting Covid. It’s how I expect to continue.'

    Now he isn't clear if ontinue means indefinite future and it isn't clear whether he sees restrictions applying to men in their 70s like him or if we should all be doing this for ever and eternity. I wonder how Will would have felt in his youth if he had to comply with these impositions on a permanent basis? Over Christmas I was with with my brother and sister in law who have three young children. They aren't overly political people but like many are sick to death of covid. They worry about the impact on their children who've obviously been negatively affected by the pandemic. They were angry at the way those in authority seemed desperate to deny omicron was milder than delta in spite of the evidence to the contrary.

    A few days ago I went to see a friend and his partner, both in their early 30s with no kids. I was quite taken aback that my friend had decided against travelling to London due to covid and had been urging his (70ish) mother to only go out once a week, citing no higher authority than Chris Whitty for his concern. His partner's 92 year old grandmother is also part of their close circle and the idea of passing covid on to her horrifies him.

    I do get that. But what are we going to do? Live the rest of our lives as semi hermits at the behest of the very old and clinically vulnerable? It isn't entirely obvious that would be a very healthy strategy either. Getting infected with a mild variant of covid might help protect you against a nastier one that comes along later. People's general immunity could be weakening significantly.



    When the mask mandate gets dropped I suspect we will see rather a lot of people continuing to wear then in certain circumstances - 2 years gets you used to things.
    The mask debate has become so polarised but I think they should still be worn indoors because not to do so puts others at risk at harm. I have avoided covid so far and would really rather not catch it. I know it will damage me mentally and I am wary of the longterm effects of covid. I will continue to wear a mask for the foreseeable and I know many others who do.

    Life will not return to how it was for a long time. In some parts of the world it will not do so in our lifetimes and 50 years from now the children of today will still be scarred by the experience.

    Some good has come from this pandemic: a recalibration of life's priorities and the marvel of realising that commuting is a stupid way to live the only life you have. Work from home as much as you can and reconnect with nature and the green planet.
  • On topic. next weeks chip wrapping. Boris is gone in seven days.

    Something has fundamentally changed in the Boris Johnson situation. A few weeks ago there was possibility in enough minds, including my own, he could survive this - there is now no possibility he can survive this - that’s the change into peoples minds, including his own by accounts.

    The idea he can break the law, but because he won a majority in a general election that matters more, that argument brings a vote of no confidence, yet it’s the only argument he has left now, it’s come to the end of his filibustering this week. His questionnaire will be filled out and read by investigators and Prosecutors by Friday of this week.

    Boris might survive a VONC. Anything is possible. Don’t know how the Conservatives might appear after that, after endorsing him to stay, and where their poll ratings may go… but I suspect precisely this reasoning why does not survive the vonc.

    This is where we are this morning. It’s straightforward analysis of an evolving picture based on sound logic and timing is it not?

    Its not - you can't apply sound logic and timing to backbench MPs wanting to remove an idiot PM. We have had a few goes at this in recent years - Brown, May and now Johnson - and all have been chaotic at best.

    You're right - he's being investigated by the polis for not only repeated law-breaking but for leading a criminal organisation that collectively saw the law as not applying. Whats more he has lied and lied to the house then lied about lying.

    Any other PM with morals would have gone. Any other MPs with morals would have told him to go. Yet here we are with seemingly moral people prostrating themselves at the feel of all that they know is wrong unwilling to take the leap because "we don't know that the alternative will be better". That most advicated the Brexit leap off the cliff and still think their broken legs are better is an irony lost on them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The Post Office’s Horizon IT system should “never have seen the light of day” and bosses at supplier Fujitsu allowed it to be rolled out into the Post Office network despite being told it was not fit for purpose, according to a senior developer who worked on the project before it went live.

    The developer, who has not previously talked publicly about his experiences on the project, told Computer Weekly that in the months leading up to its launch, Horizon’s problems were well known inside Fujitsu.

    “Everybody in the building by the time I got there knew it was a bag of s**t”, he said. “It had gone through the test labs God knows how many times, and the testers were raising bugs by the thousand.”"

    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider

    What a total sh!t-show of a project from start to finish. Those in charge, from PO and the suppliers, need to be held accountable for the failure.

    Senior people at the PO knew the project was a bug-riddled disaster, yet proceeded to hold this sub-postmasters, small business franchisees, legally liable for the accounting errors it was generating.

    That the result was a number of these small businesssmen ending up in prison, and others committing suicide, really needs a public enquiry.
    I disagree.

    It needs a criminal inquiry, followed by prosecutions.
    What baffles me about the behaviour of the PO management is the apparent lack of common sense.

    They recruited staff from a very wide range of backgrounds, few if any of whom had any kind of criminal record. Yet the sheer number the PO was accusing implied that they had somehow managed to corner the market in crooked staff. Surely somebody at some point must have said 'This can't be right'. How could any organisation manage to recruit so many fraudelent staff? It would be very difficult even if that's what they were trying to do.

    Never mind all the other obvious failures. The failure to apply common sense seems to be one of the most obvious, extreme and inexplicable.
    Added to that is that the problems were openly known fairly early on (Computer Weekly did some good reporting), and yet the organisations ploughed on regardless.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The Post Office’s Horizon IT system should “never have seen the light of day” and bosses at supplier Fujitsu allowed it to be rolled out into the Post Office network despite being told it was not fit for purpose, according to a senior developer who worked on the project before it went live.

    The developer, who has not previously talked publicly about his experiences on the project, told Computer Weekly that in the months leading up to its launch, Horizon’s problems were well known inside Fujitsu.

    “Everybody in the building by the time I got there knew it was a bag of s**t”, he said. “It had gone through the test labs God knows how many times, and the testers were raising bugs by the thousand.”"

    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider

    What a total sh!t-show of a project from start to finish. Those in charge, from PO and the suppliers, need to be held accountable for the failure.

    Senior people at the PO knew the project was a bug-riddled disaster, yet proceeded to hold this sub-postmasters, small business franchisees, legally liable for the accounting errors it was generating.

    That the result was a number of these small businesssmen ending up in prison, and others committing suicide, really needs a public enquiry.
    I disagree.

    It needs a criminal inquiry, followed by prosecutions.
    What baffles me about the behaviour of the PO management is the apparent lack of common sense.

    They recruited staff from a very wide range of backgrounds, few if any of whom had any kind of criminal record. Yet the sheer number the PO was accusing implied that they had somehow managed to corner the market in crooked staff. Surely somebody at some point must have said 'This can't be right'. How could any organisation manage to recruit so many fraudelent staff? It would be very difficult even if that's what they were trying to do.

    Never mind all the other obvious failures. The failure to apply common sense seems to be one of the most obvious, extreme and inexplicable.
    Although it does rather presuppose these people had common sense.
    It's easy to make cutting remarks like that but in a way that trivialsie a genuine and serious question.

    I would say it was statistically impossible to find that many crooks in a normal population of people. That in itself should have rung the alarm bells.
    Maybe the assumption was that many people will resort to fraud when given the opportunity, and that the computer system provided a means of identifying them. After all, we don't know how many people commit fraud, just how many are caught.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The Post Office’s Horizon IT system should “never have seen the light of day” and bosses at supplier Fujitsu allowed it to be rolled out into the Post Office network despite being told it was not fit for purpose, according to a senior developer who worked on the project before it went live.

    The developer, who has not previously talked publicly about his experiences on the project, told Computer Weekly that in the months leading up to its launch, Horizon’s problems were well known inside Fujitsu.

    “Everybody in the building by the time I got there knew it was a bag of s**t”, he said. “It had gone through the test labs God knows how many times, and the testers were raising bugs by the thousand.”"

    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider

    This story gets worse and worse.

    And what's really appalling is that the incompetence at Fujitsu-ICL was so severe that a number of postmasters went to prison for crimes they did not commit. And Fujitsu-UCL tried to cover it up.
    Not only that people took their own lives.

    It was not only Fujitsu, the high ups in the Post Office also knew but still allowed prosecutions to take place.

    Absolutely disgusting. These people allowed lives to be lost and ruined for a failed IT system they knew about.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The Post Office’s Horizon IT system should “never have seen the light of day” and bosses at supplier Fujitsu allowed it to be rolled out into the Post Office network despite being told it was not fit for purpose, according to a senior developer who worked on the project before it went live.

    The developer, who has not previously talked publicly about his experiences on the project, told Computer Weekly that in the months leading up to its launch, Horizon’s problems were well known inside Fujitsu.

    “Everybody in the building by the time I got there knew it was a bag of s**t”, he said. “It had gone through the test labs God knows how many times, and the testers were raising bugs by the thousand.”"

    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider

    What a total sh!t-show of a project from start to finish. Those in charge, from PO and the suppliers, need to be held accountable for the failure.

    Senior people at the PO knew the project was a bug-riddled disaster, yet proceeded to hold this sub-postmasters, small business franchisees, legally liable for the accounting errors it was generating.

    That the result was a number of these small businesssmen ending up in prison, and others committing suicide, really needs a public enquiry.
    I disagree.

    It needs a criminal inquiry, followed by prosecutions.
    What baffles me about the behaviour of the PO management is the apparent lack of common sense.

    They recruited staff from a very wide range of backgrounds, few if any of whom had any kind of criminal record. Yet the sheer number the PO was accusing implied that they had somehow managed to corner the market in crooked staff. Surely somebody at some point must have said 'This can't be right'. How could any organisation manage to recruit so many fraudelent staff? It would be very difficult even if that's what they were trying to do.

    Never mind all the other obvious failures. The failure to apply common sense seems to be one of the most obvious, extreme and inexplicable.
    Although it does rather presuppose these people had common sense.
    Mr P-t-P makes a very good point. Not only did these people not have any kind of criminal record but they had references as to their good character.

    I hope the judge gets, and makes public, the minutes of the Board meeting when this issue was discussed.
    As it must have been. Surely.
    There ought to have been many meetings, since this dragged on for years. It will not be a quick enquiry, I think.
  • If Dick is looking for another police job how about Chief Constable of Cleveland Police? She would be less controversial and gaffe-prone than most of the recent incumbents. Whats more she is guaranteed that a vacancy is around the corner because Chief Constables are forced to resign / get fired on a regular basis.

    She'd also enjoy the political environment, with the local Tory PCC under police investigation for a serious offence.
  • tlg86 said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60371282

    Kamila Valieva can compete again at the Winter Olympics after the Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas) decided that no provisional suspension should be imposed on the 15-year-old after she failed a drugs test.

    Cas said preventing the Russian figure skater from competing would have caused her "irreparable harm".


    What a mess. The other competitors should consider boycotting the individual event.

    The Russians should have been barred altogether and not have this stupid rebranding of ROC.

    Only that would get them to stop this industrial scale state sponsored doping.
This discussion has been closed.