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What should the Met do now? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited February 2022 in General
imageWhat should the Met do now? – politicalbetting.com

When an organisation in trouble loses its leadership, there is a tendency for the new management to embark on a reorganisation. This is usually a mistake. It’s not that reorganisation isn’t needed. It’s rather that it should not be the priority. It destabilises and distracts from the work which is needed.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    The Met for all is strengths, is perhaps too big for its own good. It has become politically driven at a time when there is a serious polarisation in the UK and despite some progress it is dominated by a male culture (silverback gorillas is a metaphor I have heard used to describe the alpha male driven culture).
    that intelligent young men and women want to join is a good sign though the hierarchy needs some sort of dismantlement. its beyond the control of an elected London mayor...... and I suspect a Home Secretary who herself has politicised a lot of functions (as have her predecessors)
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    Joining PCs could probably do with a decent pay rise as well......
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    Second.

    But deadly.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    Bigger does not always mean better - Police Scotland hasnt exactly been a roaring success I believe.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Bigger does not always mean better - Police Scotland hasnt exactly been a roaring success I believe.

    What does a good police service look like?

    I feel like there is a gross lack of examples anywhere…
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    "The tragedy of Boris Johnson
    He had the chance to save Britain — and squandered it
    By Aris Roussinos"

    https://unherd.com/2022/02/the-tragedy-of-boris-johnson/
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,890
    edited February 2022
    Central specialised squads have denuded local stations of talent and expertise. There needs to be some reversal of that.

    ETA the header mentions the Stephen Port scandal which imo was due in part to there being no murder experts locally and nothing to trigger the specialist murder squad.

    What I expect, and fear, we will see is the government making a power grab and moving some functions under Home Office or other central control.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    edited February 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    "The tragedy of Boris Johnson
    He had the chance to save Britain — and squandered it
    By Aris Roussinos"

    https://unherd.com/2022/02/the-tragedy-of-boris-johnson/

    That article sums up both what I love and hate about UnHerd.

    It's a generally good analysis, that is well written, and well argued, but also contains this utter horse-shit:

    As with Trump, Johnson’s political foes, the liberal establishment he had betrayed, stymied his rule with all the stunts and tricks liberalism deploys to arrest democracy, here directly imported from the imperial metropole: the fictitious parallel institutions of liberal shadow governance such as Independent Sage, the same pointless, time-consuming lawfare of Twitter barristers calling themselves defenders of the rule of law, the same mass demonstrations of fevered identity warriors stoked by the opposition press for narrow political gain. No scandal was too petty, no wild accusation of fascism or dictatorial tendencies too overblown in the liberal para-state’s mission to save democracy from the voters.

    As if Independent Sage had any role in anything, or is part of some organised conspiracy. Independent Sage was a joke: but it was a joke that went out and published forecasts, and they were wrong. And it wasn't part of any "para-state", it was simply the fact that the person with the most outlandish views is the most newsworthy.

    This throwing together of a bunch of disparate people, with nothing in common and no connection to each other, as if it were part of some global conspiracy is so absurd as to be barely believeable.

    Does the author really believe that the members of iSage were in cahoots with the identity warriors of BLM? Ridiculous and absurd.

    But what's worse is that this horse-shit distracts and devalues what is basically good analysis.

    Rant over.
  • Question-begging from the Times or realism from Boris?

    Boris Johnson to get private lawyer for questions on Downing Street parties
    ... ...
    The Times has been told that the prime minister has lined up a legal expert on coronavirus regulations who will help him to defend his participation in the parties.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-get-private-lawyer-questions-downing-street-parties-h3r7ts6bx (£££)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    edited February 2022
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The tragedy of Boris Johnson
    He had the chance to save Britain — and squandered it
    By Aris Roussinos"

    https://unherd.com/2022/02/the-tragedy-of-boris-johnson/

    That article sums up both what I love and hate about UnHerd.

    It's a generally good analysis, that is well written, and well argued, but also contains this utter horse-shit:

    As with Trump, Johnson’s political foes, the liberal establishment he had betrayed, stymied his rule with all the stunts and tricks liberalism deploys to arrest democracy, here directly imported from the imperial metropole: the fictitious parallel institutions of liberal shadow governance such as Independent Sage, the same pointless, time-consuming lawfare of Twitter barristers calling themselves defenders of the rule of law, the same mass demonstrations of fevered identity warriors stoked by the opposition press for narrow political gain. No scandal was too petty, no wild accusation of fascism or dictatorial tendencies too overblown in the liberal para-state’s mission to save democracy from the voters.

    As if Independent Sage had any role in anything, or is part of some organised conspiracy. Independent Sage was a joke: but it was a joke that went out and published forecasts, and they were wrong. And it wasn't part of any "para-state", it was simply the fact that the person with the most outlandish views is the most newsworthy.

    This throwing together of a bunch of disparate people, with nothing in common and no connection to each other, as if it were part of some global conspiracy is so absurd as to be barely believeable.

    Does the author really believe that the members of iSage were in cahoots with the identity warriors of BLM? Ridiculous and absurd.

    But what's worse is that this horse-shit distracts and devalues what is basically good analysis.

    Rant over.
    It's not as outlandish as you might think. Independent Sage is run by an organsiation called 'The Citizens' that was set up to 'hold the government to account' and funds activism from the likes of Carole Cadwalladr and Femi Oluwole who says that 'all 357 Tory MPs' are fascists because they voted for the policing bill.

    This is another one of their offshoots, which is an explicit copy of a US organisation that is documenting 'the end of democracy':

    "In Britain, we are witnessing a systematic assault on our democracy... Every institution is under attack: the NHS, the BBC, the Electoral Commission, Ofcom."

    https://keepingthereceipts.substack.com/about
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The tragedy of Boris Johnson
    He had the chance to save Britain — and squandered it
    By Aris Roussinos"

    https://unherd.com/2022/02/the-tragedy-of-boris-johnson/

    That article sums up both what I love and hate about UnHerd.

    It's a generally good analysis, that is well written, and well argued, but also contains this utter horse-shit:

    As with Trump, Johnson’s political foes, the liberal establishment he had betrayed, stymied his rule with all the stunts and tricks liberalism deploys to arrest democracy, here directly imported from the imperial metropole: the fictitious parallel institutions of liberal shadow governance such as Independent Sage, the same pointless, time-consuming lawfare of Twitter barristers calling themselves defenders of the rule of law, the same mass demonstrations of fevered identity warriors stoked by the opposition press for narrow political gain. No scandal was too petty, no wild accusation of fascism or dictatorial tendencies too overblown in the liberal para-state’s mission to save democracy from the voters.

    As if Independent Sage had any role in anything, or is part of some organised conspiracy. Independent Sage was a joke: but it was a joke that went out and published forecasts, and they were wrong. And it wasn't part of any "para-state", it was simply the fact that the person with the most outlandish views is the most newsworthy.

    This throwing together of a bunch of disparate people, with nothing in common and no connection to each other, as if it were part of some global conspiracy is so absurd as to be barely believeable.

    Does the author really believe that the members of iSage were in cahoots with the identity warriors of BLM? Ridiculous and absurd.

    But what's worse is that this horse-shit distracts and devalues what is basically good analysis.

    Rant over.
    It's not as outlandish as you might think. Independent Sage is run by an organsiation called 'The Citizens' that was set up to 'hold the government to account' and funds activism from the likes of Carole Cadwalladr and Femi Oluwole who says that 'all 357 Tory MPs' are fascists because they voted for the policing bill.

    This is another one of their offshoots, which is an explicit copy of a US organisation that is documenting 'the end of democracy':

    "In Britain, we are witnessing a systematic assault on our democracy... Every institution is under attack: the NHS, the BBC, the Electoral Commission, Ofcom."

    https://keepingthereceipts.substack.com/about
    The Johnson administration is a genuine threat to all our freedoms. There is no history of any modern British government trying to pass measures like those in the Policing Bill, and no other modern Western nation nation is doing so. Likewise there is no other Western government, right or left, trying to pass measures on voting inspired by Trumpite Republicanism.

    These are not imaginary threats.
    "Measures on voting inspired by Trumpite Republicanism"? You mean like photo ID, as most European democracies already require? Personally I would regret losing one of the symbols of a high trust society, but it would hardly make us an anomaly.

    Every government in living memory has passed controversial legislation on policing measures for public gatherings. The hysteria is absurdly disproportionate.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The tragedy of Boris Johnson
    He had the chance to save Britain — and squandered it
    By Aris Roussinos"

    https://unherd.com/2022/02/the-tragedy-of-boris-johnson/

    That article sums up both what I love and hate about UnHerd.

    It's a generally good analysis, that is well written, and well argued, but also contains this utter horse-shit:

    As with Trump, Johnson’s political foes, the liberal establishment he had betrayed, stymied his rule with all the stunts and tricks liberalism deploys to arrest democracy, here directly imported from the imperial metropole: the fictitious parallel institutions of liberal shadow governance such as Independent Sage, the same pointless, time-consuming lawfare of Twitter barristers calling themselves defenders of the rule of law, the same mass demonstrations of fevered identity warriors stoked by the opposition press for narrow political gain. No scandal was too petty, no wild accusation of fascism or dictatorial tendencies too overblown in the liberal para-state’s mission to save democracy from the voters.

    As if Independent Sage had any role in anything, or is part of some organised conspiracy. Independent Sage was a joke: but it was a joke that went out and published forecasts, and they were wrong. And it wasn't part of any "para-state", it was simply the fact that the person with the most outlandish views is the most newsworthy.

    This throwing together of a bunch of disparate people, with nothing in common and no connection to each other, as if it were part of some global conspiracy is so absurd as to be barely believeable.

    Does the author really believe that the members of iSage were in cahoots with the identity warriors of BLM? Ridiculous and absurd.

    But what's worse is that this horse-shit distracts and devalues what is basically good analysis.

    Rant over.
    Apart from anything else, that there is some terrible writing. Wtf is a fictitious parallel institution of liberal shadow governance?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited February 2022

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The tragedy of Boris Johnson
    He had the chance to save Britain — and squandered it
    By Aris Roussinos"

    https://unherd.com/2022/02/the-tragedy-of-boris-johnson/

    That article sums up both what I love and hate about UnHerd.

    It's a generally good analysis, that is well written, and well argued, but also contains this utter horse-shit:

    As with Trump, Johnson’s political foes, the liberal establishment he had betrayed, stymied his rule with all the stunts and tricks liberalism deploys to arrest democracy, here directly imported from the imperial metropole: the fictitious parallel institutions of liberal shadow governance such as Independent Sage, the same pointless, time-consuming lawfare of Twitter barristers calling themselves defenders of the rule of law, the same mass demonstrations of fevered identity warriors stoked by the opposition press for narrow political gain. No scandal was too petty, no wild accusation of fascism or dictatorial tendencies too overblown in the liberal para-state’s mission to save democracy from the voters.

    As if Independent Sage had any role in anything, or is part of some organised conspiracy. Independent Sage was a joke: but it was a joke that went out and published forecasts, and they were wrong. And it wasn't part of any "para-state", it was simply the fact that the person with the most outlandish views is the most newsworthy.

    This throwing together of a bunch of disparate people, with nothing in common and no connection to each other, as if it were part of some global conspiracy is so absurd as to be barely believeable.

    Does the author really believe that the members of iSage were in cahoots with the identity warriors of BLM? Ridiculous and absurd.

    But what's worse is that this horse-shit distracts and devalues what is basically good analysis.

    Rant over.
    It's not as outlandish as you might think. Independent Sage is run by an organsiation called 'The Citizens' that was set up to 'hold the government to account' and funds activism from the likes of Carole Cadwalladr and Femi Oluwole who says that 'all 357 Tory MPs' are fascists because they voted for the policing bill.

    This is another one of their offshoots, which is an explicit copy of a US organisation that is documenting 'the end of democracy':

    "In Britain, we are witnessing a systematic assault on our democracy... Every institution is under attack: the NHS, the BBC, the Electoral Commission, Ofcom."

    https://keepingthereceipts.substack.com/about
    The Johnson administration is a genuine threat to all our freedoms. There is no history of any modern British government trying to pass measures like those in the Policing Bill, and no other modern Western nation nation is doing so. Likewise there is no other Western government, right or left, trying to pass measures on voting inspired by Trumpite Republicanism.

    These are not imaginary threats.
    "Measures on voting inspired by Trumpite Republicanism"? You mean like photo ID, as most European democracies already require? Personally I would regret losing one of the symbols of a high trust society, but it would hardly make us an anomaly.

    Every government in living memory has passed controversial legislation on policing measures for public gatherings. The hysteria is absurdly disproportionate.
    The supposed measures against the large-scale threat of voter fraud, which isn't supported by any evidence, are clearly and shamelessly out of the Trumpite playbook.

    Likewise the point on the Policing Bill is nonsense. The government has tried to place a potential ban on any demonstrations that are "disruptive", for instance, with noise often classed legally as disruption. There's no history of anything like this in modern Britain, and none of our neighbours have tried to do anything like it either.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    edited February 2022

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The tragedy of Boris Johnson
    He had the chance to save Britain — and squandered it
    By Aris Roussinos"

    https://unherd.com/2022/02/the-tragedy-of-boris-johnson/

    That article sums up both what I love and hate about UnHerd.

    It's a generally good analysis, that is well written, and well argued, but also contains this utter horse-shit:

    As with Trump, Johnson’s political foes, the liberal establishment he had betrayed, stymied his rule with all the stunts and tricks liberalism deploys to arrest democracy, here directly imported from the imperial metropole: the fictitious parallel institutions of liberal shadow governance such as Independent Sage, the same pointless, time-consuming lawfare of Twitter barristers calling themselves defenders of the rule of law, the same mass demonstrations of fevered identity warriors stoked by the opposition press for narrow political gain. No scandal was too petty, no wild accusation of fascism or dictatorial tendencies too overblown in the liberal para-state’s mission to save democracy from the voters.

    As if Independent Sage had any role in anything, or is part of some organised conspiracy. Independent Sage was a joke: but it was a joke that went out and published forecasts, and they were wrong. And it wasn't part of any "para-state", it was simply the fact that the person with the most outlandish views is the most newsworthy.

    This throwing together of a bunch of disparate people, with nothing in common and no connection to each other, as if it were part of some global conspiracy is so absurd as to be barely believeable.

    Does the author really believe that the members of iSage were in cahoots with the identity warriors of BLM? Ridiculous and absurd.

    But what's worse is that this horse-shit distracts and devalues what is basically good analysis.

    Rant over.
    It's not as outlandish as you might think. Independent Sage is run by an organsiation called 'The Citizens' that was set up to 'hold the government to account' and funds activism from the likes of Carole Cadwalladr and Femi Oluwole who says that 'all 357 Tory MPs' are fascists because they voted for the policing bill.

    This is another one of their offshoots, which is an explicit copy of a US organisation that is documenting 'the end of democracy':

    "In Britain, we are witnessing a systematic assault on our democracy... Every institution is under attack: the NHS, the BBC, the Electoral Commission, Ofcom."

    https://keepingthereceipts.substack.com/about
    The Johnson administration is a genuine threat to all our freedoms. There is no history of any modern British government trying to pass measures like those in the Policing Bill, and no other modern Western nation nation is doing so. Likewise there is no other Western government, right or left, trying to pass measures on voting inspired by Trumpite Republicanism.

    These are not imaginary threats.
    "Measures on voting inspired by Trumpite Republicanism"? You mean like photo ID, as most European democracies already require? Personally I would regret losing one of the symbols of a high trust society, but it would hardly make us an anomaly.

    Every government in living memory has passed controversial legislation on policing measures for public gatherings. The hysteria is absurdly disproportionate.
    The supposed measures against the large-scale threat of voter fraud, which isn't supported by any evidence, are clearly and shamelessly out of the Trumpite playbook.

    Likewise the point on the Policing Bill is nonsense. The government has tried to place a potential ban on any demonstrations that are "disruptive", for instance, with noise often classed legally as disruption. There's no history of anything like this in modern Britain, and none of our neighbours have tried to do anything like it either.
    Do you think France is a Trumpite hellhole?

    I believe Michael Howard's Criminal Justice Act is still in force and it criminalised a whole host of civil offences and gave the police pretty sweeping powers to deal with any crowds they "reasonably believe" will play loud music. Controversy over policing legislation is nothing new.

    Incidentally, calling it "the Johnson administration" is a linguistic tell that you are echoing American rhetoric.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited February 2022

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The tragedy of Boris Johnson
    He had the chance to save Britain — and squandered it
    By Aris Roussinos"

    https://unherd.com/2022/02/the-tragedy-of-boris-johnson/

    That article sums up both what I love and hate about UnHerd.

    It's a generally good analysis, that is well written, and well argued, but also contains this utter horse-shit:

    As with Trump, Johnson’s political foes, the liberal establishment he had betrayed, stymied his rule with all the stunts and tricks liberalism deploys to arrest democracy, here directly imported from the imperial metropole: the fictitious parallel institutions of liberal shadow governance such as Independent Sage, the same pointless, time-consuming lawfare of Twitter barristers calling themselves defenders of the rule of law, the same mass demonstrations of fevered identity warriors stoked by the opposition press for narrow political gain. No scandal was too petty, no wild accusation of fascism or dictatorial tendencies too overblown in the liberal para-state’s mission to save democracy from the voters.

    As if Independent Sage had any role in anything, or is part of some organised conspiracy. Independent Sage was a joke: but it was a joke that went out and published forecasts, and they were wrong. And it wasn't part of any "para-state", it was simply the fact that the person with the most outlandish views is the most newsworthy.

    This throwing together of a bunch of disparate people, with nothing in common and no connection to each other, as if it were part of some global conspiracy is so absurd as to be barely believeable.

    Does the author really believe that the members of iSage were in cahoots with the identity warriors of BLM? Ridiculous and absurd.

    But what's worse is that this horse-shit distracts and devalues what is basically good analysis.

    Rant over.
    It's not as outlandish as you might think. Independent Sage is run by an organsiation called 'The Citizens' that was set up to 'hold the government to account' and funds activism from the likes of Carole Cadwalladr and Femi Oluwole who says that 'all 357 Tory MPs' are fascists because they voted for the policing bill.

    This is another one of their offshoots, which is an explicit copy of a US organisation that is documenting 'the end of democracy':

    "In Britain, we are witnessing a systematic assault on our democracy... Every institution is under attack: the NHS, the BBC, the Electoral Commission, Ofcom."

    https://keepingthereceipts.substack.com/about
    The Johnson administration is a genuine threat to all our freedoms. There is no history of any modern British government trying to pass measures like those in the Policing Bill, and no other modern Western nation nation is doing so. Likewise there is no other Western government, right or left, trying to pass measures on voting inspired by Trumpite Republicanism.

    These are not imaginary threats.
    "Measures on voting inspired by Trumpite Republicanism"? You mean like photo ID, as most European democracies already require? Personally I would regret losing one of the symbols of a high trust society, but it would hardly make us an anomaly.

    Every government in living memory has passed controversial legislation on policing measures for public gatherings. The hysteria is absurdly disproportionate.
    The supposed measures against the large-scale threat of voter fraud, which isn't supported by any evidence, are clearly and shamelessly out of the Trumpite playbook.

    Likewise the point on the Policing Bill is nonsense. The government has tried to place a potential ban on any demonstrations that are "disruptive", for instance, with noise often classed legally as disruption. There's no history of anything like this in modern Britain, and none of our neighbours have tried to do anything like it either.
    Do you think France is a Trumpite hellhole?

    I believe Michael Howard's Criminal Justice Act is still in force and it criminalised a whole host of civil offences and gave the police pretty sweeping powers to deal with any crowds they "reasonably believe" will play loud music. Controversy over policing legislation is nothing new.

    Incidentally, calling it "the Johnson administration" is a linguistic tell that you are echoing American rhetoric.
    I regularly talk about the May administration too, for instance, when discussing her piviot towards Hard Brexit, so I'm not sure what the particular concern is there. Rees-Mogg himself seems to want to the make that kind of concept even more common, and our system even more Presidential, which is very telling in the context of his support for Johnson.

    On the Criminal Justice Ac, it did not address all forms of protest. It was aimed at destroying one very specific youth subculture, which it did very effectively. The Policing Bill covers all forms of protest, not a limited type of public gatherings.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The tragedy of Boris Johnson
    He had the chance to save Britain — and squandered it
    By Aris Roussinos"

    https://unherd.com/2022/02/the-tragedy-of-boris-johnson/

    That article sums up both what I love and hate about UnHerd.

    It's a generally good analysis, that is well written, and well argued, but also contains this utter horse-shit:

    As with Trump, Johnson’s political foes, the liberal establishment he had betrayed, stymied his rule with all the stunts and tricks liberalism deploys to arrest democracy, here directly imported from the imperial metropole: the fictitious parallel institutions of liberal shadow governance such as Independent Sage, the same pointless, time-consuming lawfare of Twitter barristers calling themselves defenders of the rule of law, the same mass demonstrations of fevered identity warriors stoked by the opposition press for narrow political gain. No scandal was too petty, no wild accusation of fascism or dictatorial tendencies too overblown in the liberal para-state’s mission to save democracy from the voters.

    As if Independent Sage had any role in anything, or is part of some organised conspiracy. Independent Sage was a joke: but it was a joke that went out and published forecasts, and they were wrong. And it wasn't part of any "para-state", it was simply the fact that the person with the most outlandish views is the most newsworthy.

    This throwing together of a bunch of disparate people, with nothing in common and no connection to each other, as if it were part of some global conspiracy is so absurd as to be barely believeable.

    Does the author really believe that the members of iSage were in cahoots with the identity warriors of BLM? Ridiculous and absurd.

    But what's worse is that this horse-shit distracts and devalues what is basically good analysis.

    Rant over.
    It's not as outlandish as you might think. Independent Sage is run by an organsiation called 'The Citizens' that was set up to 'hold the government to account' and funds activism from the likes of Carole Cadwalladr and Femi Oluwole who says that 'all 357 Tory MPs' are fascists because they voted for the policing bill.

    This is another one of their offshoots, which is an explicit copy of a US organisation that is documenting 'the end of democracy':

    "In Britain, we are witnessing a systematic assault on our democracy... Every institution is under attack: the NHS, the BBC, the Electoral Commission, Ofcom."

    https://keepingthereceipts.substack.com/about
    The Johnson administration is a genuine threat to all our freedoms. There is no history of any modern British government trying to pass measures like those in the Policing Bill, and no other modern Western nation nation is doing so. Likewise there is no other Western government, right or left, trying to pass measures on voting inspired by Trumpite Republicanism.

    These are not imaginary threats.
    "Measures on voting inspired by Trumpite Republicanism"? You mean like photo ID, as most European democracies already require? Personally I would regret losing one of the symbols of a high trust society, but it would hardly make us an anomaly.

    Every government in living memory has passed controversial legislation on policing measures for public gatherings. The hysteria is absurdly disproportionate.
    The supposed measures against the large-scale threat of voter fraud, which isn't supported by any evidence, are clearly and shamelessly out of the Trumpite playbook.

    Likewise the point on the Policing Bill is nonsense. The government has tried to place a potential ban on any demonstrations that are "disruptive", for instance, with noise often classed legally as disruption. There's no history of anything like this in modern Britain, and none of our neighbours have tried to do anything like it either.
    Do you think France is a Trumpite hellhole?

    I believe Michael Howard's Criminal Justice Act is still in force and it criminalised a whole host of civil offences and gave the police pretty sweeping powers to deal with any crowds they "reasonably believe" will play loud music. Controversy over policing legislation is nothing new.

    Incidentally, calling it "the Johnson administration" is a linguistic tell that you are echoing American rhetoric.
    I regularly talk about the May administration too, for instance, when discussing her piviot towards Hard Brexit, so I'm not sure what the particular concern is there. Rees-Mogg himself seems to want to the make that kind of concept even more common, and our system even more Presidential, which is very telling in the context of his support for Johnson.

    On the Criminal Justice Ac, it did not address all forms of protest. It was aimed at destroying one very specific youth subculture, which it did. The Policing Bill covers all forms of protest.
    The Labour Government had made provision for the introduction of individual electoral
    registration (IER) in the Political Parties and Elections Act 2009 to help combat fraud.
    Following a commitment in the Coalition’s Programme for government to speed up its
    implementation, the Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013 made provision
    for the introduction of IER by 2015. IER was introduced from 10 June 2014 in England
    and Wales and from 19 September 2014 in Scotland. For further information see Library
    Briefing Paper 6764, Individual Electoral Registration.

    http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06255/SN06255.pdf
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited February 2022
    *want to make that kind of concept*, it should say there.

    On voter identfication laws in France, their laws on this, as in other places in Europe, go back a long time. They have no modern history of abrupt sweeping changes to these frameworks for partisan purposes.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    *want to make that kind of concept*, it should say there.

    On voter identfication laws in France, their laws on this, as in other places in Europe, go back a long time. They have no modern history of abrupt sweeping changes to these frameworks for partisan purposes.

    And the Labour party?

    The Labour Government had made provision for the introduction of individual electoral
    registration (IER) in the Political Parties and Elections Act 2009 to help combat fraud.
    Following a commitment in the Coalition’s Programme for government to speed up its
    implementation, the Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013 made provision
    for the introduction of IER by 2015. IER was introduced from 10 June 2014 in England
    and Wales and from 19 September 2014 in Scotland. For further information see Library
    Briefing Paper 6764, Individual Electoral Registration.

    http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06255/SN06255.pdf
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    *want to make that kind of concept*, it should say there.

    On voter identfication laws in France, their laws on this, as in other places in Europe, go back a long time. They have no modern history of abrupt sweeping changes to these frameworks for partisan purposes.

    One would think you'd be pleased to see the UK catching up with our European friends on this issue. But no it's so much easier to peddle nonsensical conspiracy theories.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited February 2022
    philiph said:

    *want to make that kind of concept*, it should say there.

    On voter identfication laws in France, their laws on this, as in other places in Europe, go back a long time. They have no modern history of abrupt sweeping changes to these frameworks for partisan purposes.

    And the Labour party?

    The Labour Government had made provision for the introduction of individual electoral
    registration (IER) in the Political Parties and Elections Act 2009 to help combat fraud.
    Following a commitment in the Coalition’s Programme for government to speed up its
    implementation, the Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013 made provision
    for the introduction of IER by 2015. IER was introduced from 10 June 2014 in England
    and Wales and from 19 September 2014 in Scotland. For further information see Library
    Briefing Paper 6764, Individual Electoral Registration.

    http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06255/SN06255.pdf
    This was the new system of registration that is is already in place now, to address the level of need that was thought to have been suggested by the Electoral Commission. The new proposals are about the criteria for voting itself, and aren't the result of pressure from the Electoral Commission.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Andy_JS said:

    "The tragedy of Boris Johnson
    He had the chance to save Britain — and squandered it
    By Aris Roussinos"

    https://unherd.com/2022/02/the-tragedy-of-boris-johnson/

    Did you read that article? That it suggests Johnson is done is the only welcome thing in it; the rest of it both anticipates and advocates a nastier future.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The tragedy of Boris Johnson
    He had the chance to save Britain — and squandered it
    By Aris Roussinos"

    https://unherd.com/2022/02/the-tragedy-of-boris-johnson/

    That article sums up both what I love and hate about UnHerd.

    It's a generally good analysis, that is well written, and well argued, but also contains this utter horse-shit:

    As with Trump, Johnson’s political foes, the liberal establishment he had betrayed, stymied his rule with all the stunts and tricks liberalism deploys to arrest democracy, here directly imported from the imperial metropole: the fictitious parallel institutions of liberal shadow governance such as Independent Sage, the same pointless, time-consuming lawfare of Twitter barristers calling themselves defenders of the rule of law, the same mass demonstrations of fevered identity warriors stoked by the opposition press for narrow political gain. No scandal was too petty, no wild accusation of fascism or dictatorial tendencies too overblown in the liberal para-state’s mission to save democracy from the voters.

    As if Independent Sage had any role in anything, or is part of some organised conspiracy. Independent Sage was a joke: but it was a joke that went out and published forecasts, and they were wrong. And it wasn't part of any "para-state", it was simply the fact that the person with the most outlandish views is the most newsworthy.

    This throwing together of a bunch of disparate people, with nothing in common and no connection to each other, as if it were part of some global conspiracy is so absurd as to be barely believeable.

    Does the author really believe that the members of iSage were in cahoots with the identity warriors of BLM? Ridiculous and absurd.

    But what's worse is that this horse-shit distracts and devalues what is basically good analysis.

    Rant over.
    Is it even a good analysis? It is a bit Cummings meets Trump for my taste. Everything bad and Boris's failure to mend it is the fault of the blob, the deep state, aided and abetted by Labour's tabloid press (what?).
    I agree, it contains a lot of conspiracy theory nonsense and finishes by coming very close to suggesting that fascism is both coming and is the answer.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited February 2022
    felix said:

    *want to make that kind of concept*, it should say there.

    On voter identfication laws in France, their laws on this, as in other places in Europe, go back a long time. They have no modern history of abrupt sweeping changes to these frameworks for partisan purposes.

    One would think you'd be pleased to see the UK catching up with our European friends on this issue. But no it's so much easier to peddle nonsensical conspiracy theories.
    It's no more nonsensical than Paterson was a pattern, or Johnson making his own brother a Lord was a pattern, or parts of the Policing Bill are a pattern, for instance.

    If the government doesn't want to be seen an unusually antidemocratic menace, it's its own responsibility to shape up.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Question-begging from the Times or realism from Boris?

    Boris Johnson to get private lawyer for questions on Downing Street parties
    ... ...
    The Times has been told that the prime minister has lined up a legal expert on coronavirus regulations who will help him to defend his participation in the parties.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-get-private-lawyer-questions-downing-street-parties-h3r7ts6bx (£££)

    This suggests to me Johnson really doesn't get it.

    If Mr Loophole can get Johnson off on a technicality, does that mean he didn't attend the parties? No it doesn't. Does it mean he didn't conceive the thought that there was one rule for him and another for the rest of us? No, infact it reinforces that view.

    If Johnson rejects the fixed penalty notices can he elect to ,contest the ticket (s) in a Crown Court by a jury of his peers? A jury of the little people.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    philiph said:

    *want to make that kind of concept*, it should say there.

    On voter identfication laws in France, their laws on this, as in other places in Europe, go back a long time. They have no modern history of abrupt sweeping changes to these frameworks for partisan purposes.

    And the Labour party?

    The Labour Government had made provision for the introduction of individual electoral
    registration (IER) in the Political Parties and Elections Act 2009 to help combat fraud.
    Following a commitment in the Coalition’s Programme for government to speed up its
    implementation, the Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013 made provision
    for the introduction of IER by 2015. IER was introduced from 10 June 2014 in England
    and Wales and from 19 September 2014 in Scotland. For further information see Library
    Briefing Paper 6764, Individual Electoral Registration.

    http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06255/SN06255.pdf
    This was the new system of registration that is is already in place now, to address the level of need that was thought to have been suggested by the Electoral Commission. The new proposals are about the criteria for voting itself, and aren't the result of pressure from the Electoral Commission.
    The EC did, however, get cold feet and urge a pause during the implementation, whereas the government pressed ahead, amid lots of expressed concern about the risks - I haven’t seen anything to suggest that these warned-of risks with IER ever came to pass?
  • philiph said:

    *want to make that kind of concept*, it should say there.

    On voter identfication laws in France, their laws on this, as in other places in Europe, go back a long time. They have no modern history of abrupt sweeping changes to these frameworks for partisan purposes.

    And the Labour party?

    The Labour Government had made provision for the introduction of individual electoral
    registration (IER) in the Political Parties and Elections Act 2009 to help combat fraud.
    Following a commitment in the Coalition’s Programme for government to speed up its
    implementation, the Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013 made provision
    for the introduction of IER by 2015. IER was introduced from 10 June 2014 in England
    and Wales and from 19 September 2014 in Scotland. For further information see Library
    Briefing Paper 6764, Individual Electoral Registration.

    http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06255/SN06255.pdf
    Whether or not you think it is a good idea, individual electoral registration has nothing to do with requiring photo ID to vote. If you look at your link, then photo ID to vote is aimed at preventing or reducing personation, which is pretending to be someone else and in effect, stealing their vote. Because Labour's attempt to introduce ID cards failed, not everyone has photo ID, and so requiring photo ID to vote will act to suppress voting by that group which, by and large, is thought to support Labour, hence its appeal to some on the right. Personation, as your link shows, is rare, although there was a history of it in Northern Ireland.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The tragedy of Boris Johnson
    He had the chance to save Britain — and squandered it
    By Aris Roussinos"

    https://unherd.com/2022/02/the-tragedy-of-boris-johnson/

    That article sums up both what I love and hate about UnHerd.

    It's a generally good analysis, that is well written, and well argued, but also contains this utter horse-shit:

    As with Trump, Johnson’s political foes, the liberal establishment he had betrayed, stymied his rule with all the stunts and tricks liberalism deploys to arrest democracy, here directly imported from the imperial metropole: the fictitious parallel institutions of liberal shadow governance such as Independent Sage, the same pointless, time-consuming lawfare of Twitter barristers calling themselves defenders of the rule of law, the same mass demonstrations of fevered identity warriors stoked by the opposition press for narrow political gain. No scandal was too petty, no wild accusation of fascism or dictatorial tendencies too overblown in the liberal para-state’s mission to save democracy from the voters.

    As if Independent Sage had any role in anything, or is part of some organised conspiracy. Independent Sage was a joke: but it was a joke that went out and published forecasts, and they were wrong. And it wasn't part of any "para-state", it was simply the fact that the person with the most outlandish views is the most newsworthy.

    This throwing together of a bunch of disparate people, with nothing in common and no connection to each other, as if it were part of some global conspiracy is so absurd as to be barely believeable.

    Does the author really believe that the members of iSage were in cahoots with the identity warriors of BLM? Ridiculous and absurd.

    But what's worse is that this horse-shit distracts and devalues what is basically good analysis.

    Rant over.
    It's not as outlandish as you might think. Independent Sage is run by an organsiation called 'The Citizens' that was set up to 'hold the government to account' and funds activism from the likes of Carole Cadwalladr and Femi Oluwole who says that 'all 357 Tory MPs' are fascists because they voted for the policing bill.

    This is another one of their offshoots, which is an explicit copy of a US organisation that is documenting 'the end of democracy':

    "In Britain, we are witnessing a systematic assault on our democracy... Every institution is under attack: the NHS, the BBC, the Electoral Commission, Ofcom."

    https://keepingthereceipts.substack.com/about
    The Johnson administration is a genuine threat to all our freedoms. There is no history of any modern British government trying to pass measures like those in the Policing Bill, and no other modern Western nation nation is doing so. Likewise there is no other Western government, right or left, trying to pass measures on voting inspired by Trumpite Republicanism.

    These are not imaginary threats.
    "Measures on voting inspired by Trumpite Republicanism"? You mean like photo ID, as most European democracies already require? Personally I would regret losing one of the symbols of a high trust society, but it would hardly make us an anomaly.

    Every government in living memory has passed controversial legislation on policing measures for public gatherings. The hysteria is absurdly disproportionate.
    The supposed measures against the large-scale threat of voter fraud, which isn't supported by any evidence, are clearly and shamelessly out of the Trumpite playbook.

    Likewise the point on the Policing Bill is nonsense. The government has tried to place a potential ban on any demonstrations that are "disruptive", for instance, with noise often classed legally as disruption. There's no history of anything like this in modern Britain, and none of our neighbours have tried to do anything like it either.
    It is misleading to blame President Trump for voter suppression in the United States. It has been part of the Republican playbook for years before Trump.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    edited February 2022

    philiph said:

    *want to make that kind of concept*, it should say there.

    On voter identfication laws in France, their laws on this, as in other places in Europe, go back a long time. They have no modern history of abrupt sweeping changes to these frameworks for partisan purposes.

    And the Labour party?

    The Labour Government had made provision for the introduction of individual electoral
    registration (IER) in the Political Parties and Elections Act 2009 to help combat fraud.
    Following a commitment in the Coalition’s Programme for government to speed up its
    implementation, the Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013 made provision
    for the introduction of IER by 2015. IER was introduced from 10 June 2014 in England
    and Wales and from 19 September 2014 in Scotland. For further information see Library
    Briefing Paper 6764, Individual Electoral Registration.

    http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06255/SN06255.pdf
    Whether or not you think it is a good idea, individual electoral registration has nothing to do with requiring photo ID to vote. If you look at your link, then photo ID to vote is aimed at preventing or reducing personation, which is pretending to be someone else and in effect, stealing their vote. Because Labour's attempt to introduce ID cards failed, not everyone has photo ID, and so requiring photo ID to vote will act to suppress voting by that group which, by and large, is thought to support Labour, hence its appeal to some on the right. Personation, as your link shows, is rare, although there was a history of it in Northern Ireland.
    If anything, I would expect mandatory photo IDs to benefit the Lib Dems. This isn't the US.
  • The Met has proven itself beyond saving. Replace it as they did the RUC.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited February 2022
    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The tragedy of Boris Johnson
    He had the chance to save Britain — and squandered it
    By Aris Roussinos"

    https://unherd.com/2022/02/the-tragedy-of-boris-johnson/

    That article sums up both what I love and hate about UnHerd.

    It's a generally good analysis, that is well written, and well argued, but also contains this utter horse-shit:

    As with Trump, Johnson’s political foes, the liberal establishment he had betrayed, stymied his rule with all the stunts and tricks liberalism deploys to arrest democracy, here directly imported from the imperial metropole: the fictitious parallel institutions of liberal shadow governance such as Independent Sage, the same pointless, time-consuming lawfare of Twitter barristers calling themselves defenders of the rule of law, the same mass demonstrations of fevered identity warriors stoked by the opposition press for narrow political gain. No scandal was too petty, no wild accusation of fascism or dictatorial tendencies too overblown in the liberal para-state’s mission to save democracy from the voters.

    As if Independent Sage had any role in anything, or is part of some organised conspiracy. Independent Sage was a joke: but it was a joke that went out and published forecasts, and they were wrong. And it wasn't part of any "para-state", it was simply the fact that the person with the most outlandish views is the most newsworthy.

    This throwing together of a bunch of disparate people, with nothing in common and no connection to each other, as if it were part of some global conspiracy is so absurd as to be barely believeable.

    Does the author really believe that the members of iSage were in cahoots with the identity warriors of BLM? Ridiculous and absurd.

    But what's worse is that this horse-shit distracts and devalues what is basically good analysis.

    Rant over.
    Is it even a good analysis? It is a bit Cummings meets Trump for my taste. Everything bad and Boris's failure to mend it is the fault of the blob, the deep state, aided and abetted by Labour's tabloid press (what?).
    I agree, it contains a lot of conspiracy theory nonsense and finishes by coming very close to suggesting that fascism is both coming and is the answer.
    The conclusions are almost as weak as his ultra-metropolitan compatriot Alex Andreou's are often strong, and I don't usually go in for such obviously partisan comparisons.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    Question-begging from the Times or realism from Boris?

    Boris Johnson to get private lawyer for questions on Downing Street parties
    ... ...
    The Times has been told that the prime minister has lined up a legal expert on coronavirus regulations who will help him to defend his participation in the parties.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-get-private-lawyer-questions-downing-street-parties-h3r7ts6bx (£££)

    Bozo ones again showing he is a clown that doesn’t understand how leadership (let alone moral leadership) really works.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    Russia. Quelle surprise.

    #UPDATE Russian Olympic Committee says Kamila Valieva has right to compete in Beijing and her gold medal should stand, after she failed doping test.

    Valieva has "the right to train and take part in competitions... until the Court of Arbitration for Sport decides otherwise": ROC


    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1492025252427481088

    Meanwhile, the British team continues to make a uniform mess of everything. I think that they've been watching Partygate unfolding with horror, and have resolved not to give Johnson an excuse to throw another one. Downing St can't hold a reception for the medallists if there aren't any.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    I see wrongthink is being attacked, and doubleplusgood too:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-60331962

    [Rights watchdog 'should lose status' over trans row]
  • philiph said:

    *want to make that kind of concept*, it should say there.

    On voter identfication laws in France, their laws on this, as in other places in Europe, go back a long time. They have no modern history of abrupt sweeping changes to these frameworks for partisan purposes.

    And the Labour party?

    The Labour Government had made provision for the introduction of individual electoral
    registration (IER) in the Political Parties and Elections Act 2009 to help combat fraud.
    Following a commitment in the Coalition’s Programme for government to speed up its
    implementation, the Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013 made provision
    for the introduction of IER by 2015. IER was introduced from 10 June 2014 in England
    and Wales and from 19 September 2014 in Scotland. For further information see Library
    Briefing Paper 6764, Individual Electoral Registration.

    http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06255/SN06255.pdf
    Whether or not you think it is a good idea, individual electoral registration has nothing to do with requiring photo ID to vote. If you look at your link, then photo ID to vote is aimed at preventing or reducing personation, which is pretending to be someone else and in effect, stealing their vote. Because Labour's attempt to introduce ID cards failed, not everyone has photo ID, and so requiring photo ID to vote will act to suppress voting by that group which, by and large, is thought to support Labour, hence its appeal to some on the right. Personation, as your link shows, is rare, although there was a history of it in Northern Ireland.
    If anything, I would expect mandatory photo IDs to benefit the Lib Dems. This isn't the US.
    It has been reported that some in CCHQ were having doubts after its Red Wall success meant it might be suppressing its own new supporters in these areas.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633

    Question-begging from the Times or realism from Boris?

    Boris Johnson to get private lawyer for questions on Downing Street parties
    ... ...
    The Times has been told that the prime minister has lined up a legal expert on coronavirus regulations who will help him to defend his participation in the parties.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-get-private-lawyer-questions-downing-street-parties-h3r7ts6bx (£££)

    This suggests to me Johnson really doesn't get it.

    If Mr Loophole can get Johnson off on a technicality, does that mean he didn't attend the parties? No it doesn't. Does it mean he didn't conceive the thought that there was one rule for him and another for the rest of us? No, infact it reinforces that view.

    If Johnson rejects the fixed penalty notices can he elect to ,contest the ticket (s) in a Crown Court by a jury of his peers? A jury of the little people.
    I wonder who is paying for his lawyer.

    Some rich doner perhaps?
  • eek said:

    Question-begging from the Times or realism from Boris?

    Boris Johnson to get private lawyer for questions on Downing Street parties
    ... ...
    The Times has been told that the prime minister has lined up a legal expert on coronavirus regulations who will help him to defend his participation in the parties.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-get-private-lawyer-questions-downing-street-parties-h3r7ts6bx (£££)

    Bozo ones again showing he is a clown that doesn’t understand how leadership (let alone moral leadership) really works.
    It gets worse.

    Johnson will pay for his lawyer, who is expected to focus on the fact that Downing Street is both the prime minister’s workplace and his home. The rules over Covid at the time made it an offence to be outside your home without a reasonable excuse.

    Lawyers have pointed out that he could argue technically that he did not breach the rules by attending the parties at No 10 because he did not leave his home.

    The defence, however, will not apply to claims that a party was held in his flat above No 11 Downing Street to celebrate the departure of Dominic Cummings, his former chief adviser, on November 13, 2020.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633

    philiph said:

    *want to make that kind of concept*, it should say there.

    On voter identfication laws in France, their laws on this, as in other places in Europe, go back a long time. They have no modern history of abrupt sweeping changes to these frameworks for partisan purposes.

    And the Labour party?

    The Labour Government had made provision for the introduction of individual electoral
    registration (IER) in the Political Parties and Elections Act 2009 to help combat fraud.
    Following a commitment in the Coalition’s Programme for government to speed up its
    implementation, the Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013 made provision
    for the introduction of IER by 2015. IER was introduced from 10 June 2014 in England
    and Wales and from 19 September 2014 in Scotland. For further information see Library
    Briefing Paper 6764, Individual Electoral Registration.

    http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06255/SN06255.pdf
    Whether or not you think it is a good idea, individual electoral registration has nothing to do with requiring photo ID to vote. If you look at your link, then photo ID to vote is aimed at preventing or reducing personation, which is pretending to be someone else and in effect, stealing their vote. Because Labour's attempt to introduce ID cards failed, not everyone has photo ID, and so requiring photo ID to vote will act to suppress voting by that group which, by and large, is thought to support Labour, hence its appeal to some on the right. Personation, as your link shows, is rare, although there was a history of it in Northern Ireland.
    If anything, I would expect mandatory photo IDs to benefit the Lib Dems. This isn't the US.
    It has been reported that some in CCHQ were having doubts after its Red Wall success meant it might be suppressing its own new supporters in these areas.
    Yes, older people without passports or driving licences. Though no photo ID required for postal voting. Why not just make that the standard?

    Photo ID works in places where ID cards are mandatory.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633
    edited February 2022

    eek said:

    Question-begging from the Times or realism from Boris?

    Boris Johnson to get private lawyer for questions on Downing Street parties
    ... ...
    The Times has been told that the prime minister has lined up a legal expert on coronavirus regulations who will help him to defend his participation in the parties.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-get-private-lawyer-questions-downing-street-parties-h3r7ts6bx (£££)

    Bozo ones again showing he is a clown that doesn’t understand how leadership (let alone moral leadership) really works.
    It gets worse.

    Johnson will pay for his lawyer, who is expected to focus on the fact that Downing Street is both the prime minister’s workplace and his home. The rules over Covid at the time made it an offence to be outside your home without a reasonable excuse.

    Lawyers have pointed out that he could argue technically that he did not breach the rules by attending the parties at No 10 because he did not leave his home.

    The defence, however, will not apply to claims that a party was held in his flat above No 11 Downing Street to celebrate the departure of Dominic Cummings, his former chief adviser, on November 13, 2020.
    Yes, but gatherings indoors, in a home, were also restricted.
  • On topic, defund The Met then abolish it.

    Bring back the Peelers, and make me Head of the Police Service of London.
  • Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Question-begging from the Times or realism from Boris?

    Boris Johnson to get private lawyer for questions on Downing Street parties
    ... ...
    The Times has been told that the prime minister has lined up a legal expert on coronavirus regulations who will help him to defend his participation in the parties.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-get-private-lawyer-questions-downing-street-parties-h3r7ts6bx (£££)

    Bozo ones again showing he is a clown that doesn’t understand how leadership (let alone moral leadership) really works.
    It gets worse.

    Johnson will pay for his lawyer, who is expected to focus on the fact that Downing Street is both the prime minister’s workplace and his home. The rules over Covid at the time made it an offence to be outside your home without a reasonable excuse.

    Lawyers have pointed out that he could argue technically that he did not breach the rules by attending the parties at No 10 because he did not leave his home.

    The defence, however, will not apply to claims that a party was held in his flat above No 11 Downing Street to celebrate the departure of Dominic Cummings, his former chief adviser, on November 13, 2020.
    Yes, but gatherings indoors, in a home, were also restricted.
    Indeed but Boris Johnson is speshul.

    He's such an innocent he gets ambushed by cake, lord knows what Vladimir Putin might ambush him with.
  • Mr. Eagles, if the police tell him he was at a party, will the lawyer's job be to tell him he wasn't?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    Good night for the Lib Dems so far (one defence to come).

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1491911334493147137?s=21
    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1491909948187553796?s=21

    They’ve been seemingly outperforming polls in local council by-elections and Labour have been under-performing, consistently. Odd pattern: polls wrong, or just council elections dynamics (only the very politically engaged vote, most float et s stay at home)?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Question-begging from the Times or realism from Boris?

    Boris Johnson to get private lawyer for questions on Downing Street parties
    ... ...
    The Times has been told that the prime minister has lined up a legal expert on coronavirus regulations who will help him to defend his participation in the parties.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-get-private-lawyer-questions-downing-street-parties-h3r7ts6bx (£££)

    Bozo ones again showing he is a clown that doesn’t understand how leadership (let alone moral leadership) really works.
    It gets worse.

    Johnson will pay for his lawyer, who is expected to focus on the fact that Downing Street is both the prime minister’s workplace and his home. The rules over Covid at the time made it an offence to be outside your home without a reasonable excuse.

    Lawyers have pointed out that he could argue technically that he did not breach the rules by attending the parties at No 10 because he did not leave his home.

    The defence, however, will not apply to claims that a party was held in his flat above No 11 Downing Street to celebrate the departure of Dominic Cummings, his former chief adviser, on November 13, 2020.
    Yes, but gatherings indoors, in a home, were also restricted.
    Good morning. Cold but clear here; pleasant winter morning.

    I suspect our PM getting off on some sort of technicality, especially if junior staff don't (not in their own home, or something) will be worse for him, publicity-wise than not. It will underline 'one rule for them, another for us'.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Question-begging from the Times or realism from Boris?

    Boris Johnson to get private lawyer for questions on Downing Street parties
    ... ...
    The Times has been told that the prime minister has lined up a legal expert on coronavirus regulations who will help him to defend his participation in the parties.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-get-private-lawyer-questions-downing-street-parties-h3r7ts6bx (£££)

    Bozo ones again showing he is a clown that doesn’t understand how leadership (let alone moral leadership) really works.
    It gets worse.

    Johnson will pay for his lawyer, who is expected to focus on the fact that Downing Street is both the prime minister’s workplace and his home. The rules over Covid at the time made it an offence to be outside your home without a reasonable excuse.

    Lawyers have pointed out that he could argue technically that he did not breach the rules by attending the parties at No 10 because he did not leave his home.

    The defence, however, will not apply to claims that a party was held in his flat above No 11 Downing Street to celebrate the departure of Dominic Cummings, his former chief adviser, on November 13, 2020.
    Yes, but gatherings indoors, in a home, were also restricted.
    Good morning. Cold but clear here; pleasant winter morning.

    I suspect our PM getting off on some sort of technicality, especially if junior staff don't (not in their own home, or something) will be worse for him, publicity-wise than not. It will underline 'one rule for them, another for us'.
    One rule for him......?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60342814

    The US State Department urged Americans in Ukraine to leave immediately.

    "American citizens should leave now," Mr Biden told NBC News.

    "We're dealing with one of the largest armies in the world. It's a very different situation and things could go crazy quickly."

    Asked whether there was a scenario that could prompt him to send troops to rescue fleeing Americans, Mr Biden replied: "There's not. That's a world war when Americans and Russia start shooting at one another. We're in a very different world than we've ever been."
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Excellent header, Cyclefree. I suspect you have this ready to go for some time ?

    As far as external stakeholders who put and keep sustained pressure on it to make that change; and... goes, we've already had the Chair of the London Assembly Police and Crime Committee on R4 this morning criticising the decision to terminate Dick, and claiming that '99% of officers are brave and good'...
    Not a great start.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    On topic, defund The Met then abolish it.

    Bring back the Peelers, and make me Head of the Police Service of London.

    The new uniform would be ... interesting.
  • philiph said:

    *want to make that kind of concept*, it should say there.

    On voter identfication laws in France, their laws on this, as in other places in Europe, go back a long time. They have no modern history of abrupt sweeping changes to these frameworks for partisan purposes.

    And the Labour party?

    The Labour Government had made provision for the introduction of individual electoral
    registration (IER) in the Political Parties and Elections Act 2009 to help combat fraud.
    Following a commitment in the Coalition’s Programme for government to speed up its
    implementation, the Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013 made provision
    for the introduction of IER by 2015. IER was introduced from 10 June 2014 in England
    and Wales and from 19 September 2014 in Scotland. For further information see Library
    Briefing Paper 6764, Individual Electoral Registration.

    http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06255/SN06255.pdf
    Whether or not you think it is a good idea, individual electoral registration has nothing to do with requiring photo ID to vote. If you look at your link, then photo ID to vote is aimed at preventing or reducing personation, which is pretending to be someone else and in effect, stealing their vote. Because Labour's attempt to introduce ID cards failed, not everyone has photo ID, and so requiring photo ID to vote will act to suppress voting by that group which, by and large, is thought to support Labour, hence its appeal to some on the right. Personation, as your link shows, is rare, although there was a history of it in Northern Ireland.
    If anything, I would expect mandatory photo IDs to benefit the Lib Dems. This isn't the US.
    It has been reported that some in CCHQ were having doubts after its Red Wall success meant it might be suppressing its own new supporters in these areas.
    It's OK, they're not going to vote Tory again anyway.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633

    Mr. Eagles, if the police tell him he was at a party, will the lawyer's job be to tell him he wasn't?

    One of the great ironies is that I don't think Johnson actually likes parties. To him they are business; to flatter, to plot, to seduce. I don't think he actually enjoys them as much as drinking alone.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633
    Great review of the new Farage biography. Interesting similarities to Johnsons life too:

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2022/02/how-nigel-farage-became-king-of-the-trolls
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The tragedy of Boris Johnson
    He had the chance to save Britain — and squandered it
    By Aris Roussinos"

    https://unherd.com/2022/02/the-tragedy-of-boris-johnson/

    That article sums up both what I love and hate about UnHerd.

    It's a generally good analysis, that is well written, and well argued, but also contains this utter horse-shit:

    As with Trump, Johnson’s political foes, the liberal establishment he had betrayed, stymied his rule with all the stunts and tricks liberalism deploys to arrest democracy, here directly imported from the imperial metropole: the fictitious parallel institutions of liberal shadow governance such as Independent Sage, the same pointless, time-consuming lawfare of Twitter barristers calling themselves defenders of the rule of law, the same mass demonstrations of fevered identity warriors stoked by the opposition press for narrow political gain. No scandal was too petty, no wild accusation of fascism or dictatorial tendencies too overblown in the liberal para-state’s mission to save democracy from the voters.

    As if Independent Sage had any role in anything, or is part of some organised conspiracy. Independent Sage was a joke: but it was a joke that went out and published forecasts, and they were wrong. And it wasn't part of any "para-state", it was simply the fact that the person with the most outlandish views is the most newsworthy.

    This throwing together of a bunch of disparate people, with nothing in common and no connection to each other, as if it were part of some global conspiracy is so absurd as to be barely believeable.

    Does the author really believe that the members of iSage were in cahoots with the identity warriors of BLM? Ridiculous and absurd.

    But what's worse is that this horse-shit distracts and devalues what is basically good analysis.

    Rant over.
    Apart from anything else, that there is some terrible writing. Wtf is a fictitious parallel institution of liberal shadow governance?
    Hadn't you heard about the hard line centrist conspiracy ?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Nigelb said:

    Excellent header, Cyclefree. I suspect you have this ready to go for some time ?

    As far as external stakeholders who put and keep sustained pressure on it to make that change; and... goes, we've already had the Chair of the London Assembly Police and Crime Committee on R4 this morning criticising the decision to terminate Dick, and claiming that '99% of officers are brave and good'...
    Not a great start.

    Part of the problem, of course. I have no doubt that many of the homophobic etc officers are physical;y brave and, where homophobia isn't an issue, competent.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited February 2022

    Nigelb said:

    Excellent header, Cyclefree. I suspect you have this ready to go for some time ?

    As far as external stakeholders who put and keep sustained pressure on it to make that change; and... goes, we've already had the Chair of the London Assembly Police and Crime Committee on R4 this morning criticising the decision to terminate Dick, and claiming that '99% of officers are brave and good'...
    Not a great start.

    Part of the problem, of course. I have no doubt that many of the homophobic etc officers are physical;y brave and, where homophobia isn't an issue, competent.
    I listened to the interview, and it was very much a 'just a few bad apples' argument.
    And on what basis can you claim that 99% of officers are brave, or good, or even competent ?
    It's just rhetorical bullshit.

    How can you even begin to reform an organisation if you start out with those assumptions ?
  • The next Commissioner of the Met will be recommended by the Home Secretary. Given Ms Patel's record in office is anyone seriously expecting the selection of a policing genius?

    We need Sam Vimes. We are more likely to get the Keystone Cops.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    eek said:

    Question-begging from the Times or realism from Boris?

    Boris Johnson to get private lawyer for questions on Downing Street parties
    ... ...
    The Times has been told that the prime minister has lined up a legal expert on coronavirus regulations who will help him to defend his participation in the parties.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-get-private-lawyer-questions-downing-street-parties-h3r7ts6bx (£££)

    Bozo ones again showing he is a clown that doesn’t understand how leadership (let alone moral leadership) really works.
    It gets worse.

    Johnson will pay for his lawyer, who is expected to focus on the fact that Downing Street is both the prime minister’s workplace and his home. The rules over Covid at the time made it an offence to be outside your home without a reasonable excuse.

    Lawyers have pointed out that he could argue technically that he did not breach the rules by attending the parties at No 10 because he did not leave his home.

    The defence, however, will not apply to claims that a party was held in his flat above No 11 Downing Street to celebrate the departure of Dominic Cummings, his former chief adviser, on November 13, 2020.
    To be fair, if I was about to get interviewed by the police over something that, although relatively minor, could cost me my job, I wouldn’t say anything without my own lawyer either.

    I would hope that the civil service union are also providing legal representation to their members.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    The next Commissioner of the Met will be recommended by the Home Secretary. Given Ms Patel's record in office is anyone seriously expecting the selection of a policing genius?

    We need Sam Vimes. We are more likely to get the Keystone Cops.

    In consultation with Khan, which will be an interesting process. Note this has apparently come as a complete surprise to Patel, so it's unlikely she has anyone pencilled in ?
    It's possible they might pick someone really good by accident, but I'm not holding my breath.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    As for the Met, disband it and start again. It’s too big, covers too many functions, and has a massive culture problem that can only be fixed with a clear-out of the top management. Get in a total outsider with the remit to gain the confidence of the public that the police are on their side.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    Nigelb said:

    The next Commissioner of the Met will be recommended by the Home Secretary. Given Ms Patel's record in office is anyone seriously expecting the selection of a policing genius?

    We need Sam Vimes. We are more likely to get the Keystone Cops.

    In consultation with Khan, which will be an interesting process. Note this has apparently come as a complete surprise to Patel, so it's unlikely she has anyone pencilled in ?
    It's possible they might pick someone really good by accident, but I'm not holding my breath.
    I thought the entire point of Patel renewing Dicks contract was to ensure that some of the likely duffers retired and give a chance for some (better, other, newer) likely candidates to get enough experience so they were in a position to take the job.

    The resignation so soon after the 2 year extension tells me that plan (if it existed, but I see little reason why it didn't) has now been completely scuppered
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    edited February 2022
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Question-begging from the Times or realism from Boris?

    Boris Johnson to get private lawyer for questions on Downing Street parties
    ... ...
    The Times has been told that the prime minister has lined up a legal expert on coronavirus regulations who will help him to defend his participation in the parties.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-get-private-lawyer-questions-downing-street-parties-h3r7ts6bx (£££)

    Bozo ones again showing he is a clown that doesn’t understand how leadership (let alone moral leadership) really works.
    It gets worse.

    Johnson will pay for his lawyer, who is expected to focus on the fact that Downing Street is both the prime minister’s workplace and his home. The rules over Covid at the time made it an offence to be outside your home without a reasonable excuse.

    Lawyers have pointed out that he could argue technically that he did not breach the rules by attending the parties at No 10 because he did not leave his home.

    The defence, however, will not apply to claims that a party was held in his flat above No 11 Downing Street to celebrate the departure of Dominic Cummings, his former chief adviser, on November 13, 2020.
    To be fair, if I was about to get interviewed by the police over something that, although relatively minor, could cost me my job, I wouldn’t say anything without my own lawyer either.

    I would hope that the civil service union are also providing legal representation to their members.
    Recently there were several posts on here about not accepting Fixed Penalty Notices or Police Cautions without on-site legal advice.

    However, I rather doubt that 'Johnson will pay for his lawyer'. Someone else will, or some Tory arse-licker will do it 'pro bono'. (Or pro honour!)
  • Mr. B, maybe.

    I can believe Patel's so incompetent she tries to appoint someone inappropriate and accidentally picks someone capable.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Question-begging from the Times or realism from Boris?

    Boris Johnson to get private lawyer for questions on Downing Street parties
    ... ...
    The Times has been told that the prime minister has lined up a legal expert on coronavirus regulations who will help him to defend his participation in the parties.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-get-private-lawyer-questions-downing-street-parties-h3r7ts6bx (£££)

    Bozo ones again showing he is a clown that doesn’t understand how leadership (let alone moral leadership) really works.
    It gets worse.

    Johnson will pay for his lawyer, who is expected to focus on the fact that Downing Street is both the prime minister’s workplace and his home. The rules over Covid at the time made it an offence to be outside your home without a reasonable excuse.

    Lawyers have pointed out that he could argue technically that he did not breach the rules by attending the parties at No 10 because he did not leave his home.

    The defence, however, will not apply to claims that a party was held in his flat above No 11 Downing Street to celebrate the departure of Dominic Cummings, his former chief adviser, on November 13, 2020.
    To be fair, if I was about to get interviewed by the police over something that, although relatively minor, could cost me my job, I wouldn’t say anything without my own lawyer either.

    I would hope that the civil service union are also providing legal representation to their members.
    They will probably give legal representation to the senior people who ask for it but not the junior people who don't ask (because hey the senior civil servants need fall guys as much as Bozo does).
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Isn't Sajid Javid's brother a senior policeman?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Question-begging from the Times or realism from Boris?

    Boris Johnson to get private lawyer for questions on Downing Street parties
    ... ...
    The Times has been told that the prime minister has lined up a legal expert on coronavirus regulations who will help him to defend his participation in the parties.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-get-private-lawyer-questions-downing-street-parties-h3r7ts6bx (£££)

    Bozo ones again showing he is a clown that doesn’t understand how leadership (let alone moral leadership) really works.
    It gets worse.

    Johnson will pay for his lawyer, who is expected to focus on the fact that Downing Street is both the prime minister’s workplace and his home. The rules over Covid at the time made it an offence to be outside your home without a reasonable excuse.

    Lawyers have pointed out that he could argue technically that he did not breach the rules by attending the parties at No 10 because he did not leave his home.

    The defence, however, will not apply to claims that a party was held in his flat above No 11 Downing Street to celebrate the departure of Dominic Cummings, his former chief adviser, on November 13, 2020.
    To be fair, if I was about to get interviewed by the police over something that, although relatively minor, could cost me my job, I wouldn’t say anything without my own lawyer either.

    I would hope that the civil service union are also providing legal representation to their members.
    They will probably give legal representation to the senior people who ask for it but not the junior people who don't ask (because hey the senior civil servants need fall guys as much as Bozo does).
    The Trade Union should, surely, make no distinction.
  • Interesting thread:

    The inconvenient truth of the present crisis is that behind all the rhetoric about NATO, Moscow's beef is fundamentally with the EU.

    https://twitter.com/samagreene/status/1491837537949736975?s=20&t=CsScW1ZzbBeOe2-NcgqJqg
  • The bullying & sense of entitlement of Stonewall appears to know no bounds.

    The @EHRC & @EHRCChair are insisting on balancing everyone's rights, including the rights of women & LGB people.

    Hold firm. You enjoy huge support.


    https://twitter.com/BluskyeAllison/status/1492029901708447744?s=20&t=CsScW1ZzbBeOe2-NcgqJqg
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Morning all.

    Well, looks like I was wrong that this was an agreement between Khan and Patel. It seems as if Sadiq effectively forced her out, which is quite surprising and really rather impressive.

    Where does this leave Boris Johnson?
    A really good piece in the Telegraph:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/02/10/cressida-dicks-resignation-means-boris-johnson-partygate-investigation/
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Andy_JS said:

    "The tragedy of Boris Johnson
    He had the chance to save Britain — and squandered it
    By Aris Roussinos"

    https://unherd.com/2022/02/the-tragedy-of-boris-johnson/

    An absolutely absurd thesis, channelling the thoughts of Chairman Bannon.

    I am assuming it didn't get any less ridiculous in the final third. The third that I couldn't be bothered to read.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    edited February 2022

    The bullying & sense of entitlement of Stonewall appears to know no bounds.

    The @EHRC & @EHRCChair are insisting on balancing everyone's rights, including the rights of women & LGB people.

    Hold firm. You enjoy huge support.


    https://twitter.com/BluskyeAllison/status/1492029901708447744?s=20&t=CsScW1ZzbBeOe2-NcgqJqg

    The article on the BBC site is clearly very pro the lobbyists and Stonewall attacking the EHRC.

    From reading it you wouldn't get any sense of balance over the issues.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-60331962
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633
    Interesting article on the 12 month risk of vascular events after covid. Significantly up across the board, even in those (like me) who didn't need hospital care. Those cardiology colleagues of mine are going to be busy.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01689-3
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    Nigelb said:

    Excellent header, Cyclefree. I suspect you have this ready to go for some time ?

    As far as external stakeholders who put and keep sustained pressure on it to make that change; and... goes, we've already had the Chair of the London Assembly Police and Crime Committee on R4 this morning criticising the decision to terminate Dick, and claiming that '99% of officers are brave and good'...
    Not a great start.

    This is my bread and butter. I have been doing this stuff for years.

  • Nigelb said:

    Excellent header, Cyclefree. I suspect you have this ready to go for some time ?

    As far as external stakeholders who put and keep sustained pressure on it to make that change; and... goes, we've already had the Chair of the London Assembly Police and Crime Committee on R4 this morning criticising the decision to terminate Dick, and claiming that '99% of officers are brave and good'...
    Not a great start.

    Part of the problem, of course. I have no doubt that many of the homophobic etc officers are physical;y brave and, where homophobia isn't an issue, competent.
    With society being more open than in the past, gay people form a sizeable percentage of the population (about 5%). That makes homophobia a career issue for people like the Police.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    Heathener said:

    Morning all.

    Well, looks like I was wrong that this was an agreement between Khan and Patel. It seems as if Sadiq effectively forced her out, which is quite surprising and really rather impressive.

    Where does this leave Boris Johnson?
    A really good piece in the Telegraph:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/02/10/cressida-dicks-resignation-means-boris-johnson-partygate-investigation/

    Basically the same as Boris did with Sir Ian Blair but the difference is that Boris did this pretty much straight away and Sadiq has dithered for years. It also makes the job somewhat unattractive in that you are constantly left torn between 2 political masters, often of different political persuasions, and with different priorities. This will need sorted out, I do not think it is sustainable.

    But there is plenty of blame to go around here. She was an extraordinary appointment in the first place. The results of the inquiry (I slightly lose track of which one) where she personally was named as seeking to undermine the inquiries efforts and investigations should have been instant dismissal. How could anyone have thought that someone with those flaws was the person to change the culture at the Met?
    The decision of Patel to renew her mandate remains even more bewildering than the original appointment. All of her many weaknesses had been manifest for years by that point. An extremely poor decision on her part.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    Isn't Sajid Javid's brother a senior policeman?

    Bas Javid. Pretty high up.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Question-begging from the Times or realism from Boris?

    Boris Johnson to get private lawyer for questions on Downing Street parties
    ... ...
    The Times has been told that the prime minister has lined up a legal expert on coronavirus regulations who will help him to defend his participation in the parties.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-get-private-lawyer-questions-downing-street-parties-h3r7ts6bx (£££)

    Bozo ones again showing he is a clown that doesn’t understand how leadership (let alone moral leadership) really works.
    It gets worse.

    Johnson will pay for his lawyer, who is expected to focus on the fact that Downing Street is both the prime minister’s workplace and his home. The rules over Covid at the time made it an offence to be outside your home without a reasonable excuse.

    Lawyers have pointed out that he could argue technically that he did not breach the rules by attending the parties at No 10 because he did not leave his home.

    The defence, however, will not apply to claims that a party was held in his flat above No 11 Downing Street to celebrate the departure of Dominic Cummings, his former chief adviser, on November 13, 2020.
    To be fair, if I was about to get interviewed by the police over something that, although relatively minor, could cost me my job, I wouldn’t say anything without my own lawyer either.

    I would hope that the civil service union are also providing legal representation to their members.
    They will probably give legal representation to the senior people who ask for it but not the junior people who don't ask (because hey the senior civil servants need fall guys as much as Bozo does).
    The Trade Union should, surely, make no distinction.
    Might be different Trade Unions. The FDA for the officer class and Unite for the poor bloody infantry. Those who aren't in a Union are like lambs to the slaughter when this sort of thing happens.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The tragedy of Boris Johnson
    He had the chance to save Britain — and squandered it
    By Aris Roussinos"

    https://unherd.com/2022/02/the-tragedy-of-boris-johnson/

    That article sums up both what I love and hate about UnHerd.

    It's a generally good analysis, that is well written, and well argued, but also contains this utter horse-shit:

    As with Trump, Johnson’s political foes, the liberal establishment he had betrayed, stymied his rule with all the stunts and tricks liberalism deploys to arrest democracy, here directly imported from the imperial metropole: the fictitious parallel institutions of liberal shadow governance such as Independent Sage, the same pointless, time-consuming lawfare of Twitter barristers calling themselves defenders of the rule of law, the same mass demonstrations of fevered identity warriors stoked by the opposition press for narrow political gain. No scandal was too petty, no wild accusation of fascism or dictatorial tendencies too overblown in the liberal para-state’s mission to save democracy from the voters.

    As if Independent Sage had any role in anything, or is part of some organised conspiracy. Independent Sage was a joke: but it was a joke that went out and published forecasts, and they were wrong. And it wasn't part of any "para-state", it was simply the fact that the person with the most outlandish views is the most newsworthy.

    This throwing together of a bunch of disparate people, with nothing in common and no connection to each other, as if it were part of some global conspiracy is so absurd as to be barely believeable.

    Does the author really believe that the members of iSage were in cahoots with the identity warriors of BLM? Ridiculous and absurd.

    But what's worse is that this horse-shit distracts and devalues what is basically good analysis.

    Rant over.
    I disagree

    In passing themselves off as a quasi-government institution, drawing on the brand name (and undermining them with the implication that they were not independent) they were trying to aggregate - successfully - authority they didn’t deserve.

    This had the net impact of weakening the ability of the government to get its message out. The media played along with it because they liked a story but that doesn’t let iSage off the hook
  • Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Question-begging from the Times or realism from Boris?

    Boris Johnson to get private lawyer for questions on Downing Street parties
    ... ...
    The Times has been told that the prime minister has lined up a legal expert on coronavirus regulations who will help him to defend his participation in the parties.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-get-private-lawyer-questions-downing-street-parties-h3r7ts6bx (£££)

    Bozo ones again showing he is a clown that doesn’t understand how leadership (let alone moral leadership) really works.
    It gets worse.

    Johnson will pay for his lawyer, who is expected to focus on the fact that Downing Street is both the prime minister’s workplace and his home. The rules over Covid at the time made it an offence to be outside your home without a reasonable excuse.

    Lawyers have pointed out that he could argue technically that he did not breach the rules by attending the parties at No 10 because he did not leave his home.

    The defence, however, will not apply to claims that a party was held in his flat above No 11 Downing Street to celebrate the departure of Dominic Cummings, his former chief adviser, on November 13, 2020.
    To be fair, if I was about to get interviewed by the police over something that, although relatively minor, could cost me my job, I wouldn’t say anything without my own lawyer either.

    I would hope that the civil service union are also providing legal representation to their members.
    This legal advice is rubbish surely? Even if it is his home, you were not allowed to have social gatherings indoors with others for many of the times they did and you were not allowed to meet more than one person in an outdoor space. During some of lockdown, which probably includes at least one party, you could only meet one other person outdoors whilst walking or running. People were fined for stopping to sit on a bench and chat.
  • Thanks Cyclefree for a typical thoughtful and well-informed piece.

    When I were a lad growing up in the East End of London it was widely assumed the cops were bent. This was accepted as inevitable because pay was so poor and conditions were bad even when not distinctly dangerous. These conditions no longer apply. Thanks to the work of the Police Federation, perhaps the strongest Union in the Country, pay and conditions are now pretty good.

    Surely this makes reform of the Police generally (and the Met in particular) relatively easy. Polcing is generally a well sought after job. Those in it will want to keep it and if they go there are plenty standing in line ready to replace them. In these circumstances the existing members might bridle, but they will ultimately accept change because it is better than the alternative.

    Doesn't the next head of the Met have a great opportunity?
  • Taz said:

    The bullying & sense of entitlement of Stonewall appears to know no bounds.

    The @EHRC & @EHRCChair are insisting on balancing everyone's rights, including the rights of women & LGB people.

    Hold firm. You enjoy huge support.


    https://twitter.com/BluskyeAllison/status/1492029901708447744?s=20&t=CsScW1ZzbBeOe2-NcgqJqg

    The article on the BBC site is clearly very pro the lobbyists and Stonewall attacking the EHRC.

    From reading it you wouldn't get any sense of balance over the issues.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-60331962
    Institutional capture by Stonewall - Nancy Kelly interviewed on R4 brushed aside the point that part of what was going on was that the former head of the EHCR had been chair of Stonewall and they didn’t like the challenge the new head was bringing to the table.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    Taz said:

    The bullying & sense of entitlement of Stonewall appears to know no bounds.

    The @EHRC & @EHRCChair are insisting on balancing everyone's rights, including the rights of women & LGB people.

    Hold firm. You enjoy huge support.


    https://twitter.com/BluskyeAllison/status/1492029901708447744?s=20&t=CsScW1ZzbBeOe2-NcgqJqg

    The article on the BBC site is clearly very pro the lobbyists and Stonewall attacking the EHRC.

    From reading it you wouldn't get any sense of balance over the issues.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-60331962
    The issue is that the EHRC have a legal duty to take into account the interests of all those with one of the 9 protected characteristics, not just one of them (and one which often incorrectly describes the characteristic which is protected under the Equality Act - it is gender recognition not simply claiming to be transgender). What it is doing is correctly applying the law. This does not please those who have misunderstood or deliberately misdescribed the law or who want it changed. Tough.

    The EHRC was attacked by Corbynites when it dared point out problems in the Labour Party. So this is the normal playbook when it points out some uncomfortable truths. It now has people in charge who are not ex-Stonewall people which no doubt annoys them. But regulatory capture of a body with an important and wide-ranging remit by a lobby group with a narrow focus is never a good thing.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Excellent header, Cyclefree. I suspect you have this ready to go for some time ?

    As far as external stakeholders who put and keep sustained pressure on it to make that change; and... goes, we've already had the Chair of the London Assembly Police and Crime Committee on R4 this morning criticising the decision to terminate Dick, and claiming that '99% of officers are brave and good'...
    Not a great start.

    This is my bread and butter. I have been doing this stuff for years.

    Very good at it you are too. I always enjoy your columns here.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812

    Interesting thread:

    The inconvenient truth of the present crisis is that behind all the rhetoric about NATO, Moscow's beef is fundamentally with the EU.

    https://twitter.com/samagreene/status/1491837537949736975?s=20&t=CsScW1ZzbBeOe2-NcgqJqg

    Yes, basically Ukraine wants to orientate its economy westwards and have a close trading relationship with the EU. Russia wants it to orientate eastwards and focus on supplying the Russian economy and zone of economic influence. The puppet they had before the current leader sought to do that but it is just economically mad and offers far fewer opportunities or growth. Russia has a very basic economy focused on the production of raw materials. There is not much Putin can do about that.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The tragedy of Boris Johnson
    He had the chance to save Britain — and squandered it
    By Aris Roussinos"

    https://unherd.com/2022/02/the-tragedy-of-boris-johnson/

    That article sums up both what I love and hate about UnHerd.

    It's a generally good analysis, that is well written, and well argued, but also contains this utter horse-shit:

    As with Trump, Johnson’s political foes, the liberal establishment he had betrayed, stymied his rule with all the stunts and tricks liberalism deploys to arrest democracy, here directly imported from the imperial metropole: the fictitious parallel institutions of liberal shadow governance such as Independent Sage, the same pointless, time-consuming lawfare of Twitter barristers calling themselves defenders of the rule of law, the same mass demonstrations of fevered identity warriors stoked by the opposition press for narrow political gain. No scandal was too petty, no wild accusation of fascism or dictatorial tendencies too overblown in the liberal para-state’s mission to save democracy from the voters.

    As if Independent Sage had any role in anything, or is part of some organised conspiracy. Independent Sage was a joke: but it was a joke that went out and published forecasts, and they were wrong. And it wasn't part of any "para-state", it was simply the fact that the person with the most outlandish views is the most newsworthy.

    This throwing together of a bunch of disparate people, with nothing in common and no connection to each other, as if it were part of some global conspiracy is so absurd as to be barely believeable.

    Does the author really believe that the members of iSage were in cahoots with the identity warriors of BLM? Ridiculous and absurd.

    But what's worse is that this horse-shit distracts and devalues what is basically good analysis.

    Rant over.
    I disagree

    In passing themselves off as a quasi-government institution, drawing on the brand name (and undermining them with the implication that they were not independent) they were trying to aggregate - successfully - authority they didn’t deserve.

    This had the net impact of weakening the ability of the government to get its message out. The media played along with it because they liked a story but that doesn’t let iSage off the hook
    There are always groups of muppets out there, but the media made a specific choice to give this particular group of self-appointed ‘expert’ muppets a shedload of airtime during the pandemic, to the detriment of the actual public health professionals who were trying to get their message out.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    The bullying & sense of entitlement of Stonewall appears to know no bounds.

    The @EHRC & @EHRCChair are insisting on balancing everyone's rights, including the rights of women & LGB people.

    Hold firm. You enjoy huge support.


    https://twitter.com/BluskyeAllison/status/1492029901708447744?s=20&t=CsScW1ZzbBeOe2-NcgqJqg

    I don't mind reasoned debate on this topic but unfortunately there are massive amounts of vile, poisonous, comments from all quarters.

    And, worse, childish throwaway 'jokes' which aren't remotely funny, combined with pernicious phobic remarks. This forum is sadly not immune from them.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633

    Nigelb said:

    Excellent header, Cyclefree. I suspect you have this ready to go for some time ?

    As far as external stakeholders who put and keep sustained pressure on it to make that change; and... goes, we've already had the Chair of the London Assembly Police and Crime Committee on R4 this morning criticising the decision to terminate Dick, and claiming that '99% of officers are brave and good'...
    Not a great start.

    Part of the problem, of course. I have no doubt that many of the homophobic etc officers are physical;y brave and, where homophobia isn't an issue, competent.
    With society being more open than in the past, gay people form a sizeable percentage of the population (about 5%). That makes homophobia a career issue for people like the Police.

    2.7% including Bisexuals and Other, albeit higher in London and younger age groups.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/sexuality/bulletins/sexualidentityuk/2019
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    DavidL said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning all.

    Well, looks like I was wrong that this was an agreement between Khan and Patel. It seems as if Sadiq effectively forced her out, which is quite surprising and really rather impressive.

    Where does this leave Boris Johnson?
    A really good piece in the Telegraph:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/02/10/cressida-dicks-resignation-means-boris-johnson-partygate-investigation/

    Basically the same as Boris did with Sir Ian Blair but the difference is that Boris did this pretty much straight away and Sadiq has dithered for years. It also makes the job somewhat unattractive in that you are constantly left torn between 2 political masters, often of different political persuasions, and with different priorities. This will need sorted out, I do not think it is sustainable.

    But there is plenty of blame to go around here. She was an extraordinary appointment in the first place. The results of the inquiry (I slightly lose track of which one) where she personally was named as seeking to undermine the inquiries efforts and investigations should have been instant dismissal. How could anyone have thought that someone with those flaws was the person to change the culture at the Met?
    The decision of Patel to renew her mandate remains even more bewildering than the original appointment. All of her many weaknesses had been manifest for years by that point. An extremely poor decision on her part.
    The Daniel Morgan Inquiry. Dick was found to have obstructed it. Grounds for instant dismissal IMO. I wrote about it here - https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/06/16/the-rise-and-fall-of-cressida-dick/
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786

    Nigelb said:

    Excellent header, Cyclefree. I suspect you have this ready to go for some time ?

    As far as external stakeholders who put and keep sustained pressure on it to make that change; and... goes, we've already had the Chair of the London Assembly Police and Crime Committee on R4 this morning criticising the decision to terminate Dick, and claiming that '99% of officers are brave and good'...
    Not a great start.

    Part of the problem, of course. I have no doubt that many of the homophobic etc officers are physical;y brave and, where homophobia isn't an issue, competent.
    Whereas that might be true we can say that about many things eg 'where race isn't an issue', where misogyny isn't an issue', etc.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Question-begging from the Times or realism from Boris?

    Boris Johnson to get private lawyer for questions on Downing Street parties
    ... ...
    The Times has been told that the prime minister has lined up a legal expert on coronavirus regulations who will help him to defend his participation in the parties.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-get-private-lawyer-questions-downing-street-parties-h3r7ts6bx (£££)

    Bozo ones again showing he is a clown that doesn’t understand how leadership (let alone moral leadership) really works.
    It gets worse.

    Johnson will pay for his lawyer, who is expected to focus on the fact that Downing Street is both the prime minister’s workplace and his home. The rules over Covid at the time made it an offence to be outside your home without a reasonable excuse.

    Lawyers have pointed out that he could argue technically that he did not breach the rules by attending the parties at No 10 because he did not leave his home.

    The defence, however, will not apply to claims that a party was held in his flat above No 11 Downing Street to celebrate the departure of Dominic Cummings, his former chief adviser, on November 13, 2020.
    To be fair, if I was about to get interviewed by the police over something that, although relatively minor, could cost me my job, I wouldn’t say anything without my own lawyer either.

    I would hope that the civil service union are also providing legal representation to their members.
    They will probably give legal representation to the senior people who ask for it but not the junior people who don't ask (because hey the senior civil servants need fall guys as much as Bozo does).
    The Trade Union should, surely, make no distinction.
    Might be different Trade Unions. The FDA for the officer class and Unite for the poor bloody infantry. Those who aren't in a Union are like lambs to the slaughter when this sort of thing happens.
    It will look even worse to everyone except Johnson if the minions get hit with accumulated multiplier penalty notices and Bozza escapes punishment on points of legal technicality.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    🚨 Scoop from @EleniCourea: Boris Johnson risks wrath of MPs by restarting trade talks with China that have been on ice for years https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-uk-china-trade-economy/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Biden confirms he will not send any US troops to Ukraine if Russia invades, even to rescue any US citizens left there. He urges all Americans left in Ukraine to get out now

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60342814
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    Thanks Cyclefree for a typical thoughtful and well-informed piece.

    When I were a lad growing up in the East End of London it was widely assumed the cops were bent. This was accepted as inevitable because pay was so poor and conditions were bad even when not distinctly dangerous. These conditions no longer apply. Thanks to the work of the Police Federation, perhaps the strongest Union in the Country, pay and conditions are now pretty good.

    Surely this makes reform of the Police generally (and the Met in particular) relatively easy. Polcing is generally a well sought after job. Those in it will want to keep it and if they go there are plenty standing in line ready to replace them. In these circumstances the existing members might bridle, but they will ultimately accept change because it is better than the alternative.

    Doesn't the next head of the Met have a great opportunity?

    Not unless it becomes easier to remove police officers.

    Although @Sandpit may be correct in saying that the police were happy to keep the dodgy people in place, it's equally possible that they are there because it's near impossible to get rid of them, so leaving you with the choice of:-

    1) suspending on full pay and working with 1 (or x) less officer(s)
    2) keeping a close eye on him

    I suspect 2 quickly becomes the preferred option given the amount of work required from the public expecting police officers on the street.

    And I don't know how you fix that without giving the police a lot of extra money or the public accepting an even worse service.

    And the public are irrational. Custody suites are being centralised in County Durham in a scheme designed to save millions up front (everywhere needs to be improved) and save money year on year. Yet the locals protested because someone said custody suites need to be local (even though it doesn't actually work).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Question-begging from the Times or realism from Boris?

    Boris Johnson to get private lawyer for questions on Downing Street parties
    ... ...
    The Times has been told that the prime minister has lined up a legal expert on coronavirus regulations who will help him to defend his participation in the parties.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-get-private-lawyer-questions-downing-street-parties-h3r7ts6bx (£££)

    Bozo ones again showing he is a clown that doesn’t understand how leadership (let alone moral leadership) really works.
    It gets worse.

    Johnson will pay for his lawyer, who is expected to focus on the fact that Downing Street is both the prime minister’s workplace and his home. The rules over Covid at the time made it an offence to be outside your home without a reasonable excuse.

    Lawyers have pointed out that he could argue technically that he did not breach the rules by attending the parties at No 10 because he did not leave his home.

    The defence, however, will not apply to claims that a party was held in his flat above No 11 Downing Street to celebrate the departure of Dominic Cummings, his former chief adviser, on November 13, 2020.
    To be fair, if I was about to get interviewed by the police over something that, although relatively minor, could cost me my job, I wouldn’t say anything without my own lawyer either.

    I would hope that the civil service union are also providing legal representation to their members.
    They will probably give legal representation to the senior people who ask for it but not the junior people who don't ask (because hey the senior civil servants need fall guys as much as Bozo does).
    The Trade Union should, surely, make no distinction.
    Might be different Trade Unions. The FDA for the officer class and Unite for the poor bloody infantry. Those who aren't in a Union are like lambs to the slaughter when this sort of thing happens.
    It will look even worse to everyone except Johnson if the minions get hit with accumulated multiplier penalty notices and Bozza escapes punishment on points of legal technicality.
    Which is why everyone involved needs a lawyer. The junior staff shouldn’t be accepting fixed penalty notices, everyone should ask for their day in court. It’s in the interests of the seniors, to make sure the juniors get representation, for exactly the reasons you state.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    eek said:

    Thanks Cyclefree for a typical thoughtful and well-informed piece.

    When I were a lad growing up in the East End of London it was widely assumed the cops were bent. This was accepted as inevitable because pay was so poor and conditions were bad even when not distinctly dangerous. These conditions no longer apply. Thanks to the work of the Police Federation, perhaps the strongest Union in the Country, pay and conditions are now pretty good.

    Surely this makes reform of the Police generally (and the Met in particular) relatively easy. Polcing is generally a well sought after job. Those in it will want to keep it and if they go there are plenty standing in line ready to replace them. In these circumstances the existing members might bridle, but they will ultimately accept change because it is better than the alternative.

    Doesn't the next head of the Met have a great opportunity?

    Not unless it becomes easier to remove police officers.

    Although @Sandpit may be correct in saying that the police were happy to keep the dodgy people in place, it's equally possible that they are there because it's near impossible to get rid of them, so leaving you with the choice of:-

    1) suspending on full pay and working with 1 (or x) less officer(s)
    2) keeping a close eye on him

    I suspect 2 quickly becomes the preferred option given the amount of work required from the public expecting police officers on the street.

    And I don't know how you fix that without giving the police a lot of extra money or the public accepting an even worse service.

    And the public are irrational. Custody suites are being centralised in County Durham in a scheme designed to save millions up front (everywhere needs to be improved) and save money year on year. Yet the locals protested because someone said custody suites need to be local (even though it doesn't actually work).
    Hence this piece of advice - "If more powers are needed to ensure that disciplinary measures are not obstructed or slowed down unnecessarily, these should be granted."
  • rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The tragedy of Boris Johnson
    He had the chance to save Britain — and squandered it
    By Aris Roussinos"

    https://unherd.com/2022/02/the-tragedy-of-boris-johnson/

    That article sums up both what I love and hate about UnHerd.

    It's a generally good analysis, that is well written, and well argued, but also contains this utter horse-shit:

    As with Trump, Johnson’s political foes, the liberal establishment he had betrayed, stymied his rule with all the stunts and tricks liberalism deploys to arrest democracy, here directly imported from the imperial metropole: the fictitious parallel institutions of liberal shadow governance such as Independent Sage, the same pointless, time-consuming lawfare of Twitter barristers calling themselves defenders of the rule of law, the same mass demonstrations of fevered identity warriors stoked by the opposition press for narrow political gain. No scandal was too petty, no wild accusation of fascism or dictatorial tendencies too overblown in the liberal para-state’s mission to save democracy from the voters.

    As if Independent Sage had any role in anything, or is part of some organised conspiracy. Independent Sage was a joke: but it was a joke that went out and published forecasts, and they were wrong. And it wasn't part of any "para-state", it was simply the fact that the person with the most outlandish views is the most newsworthy.

    This throwing together of a bunch of disparate people, with nothing in common and no connection to each other, as if it were part of some global conspiracy is so absurd as to be barely believeable.

    Does the author really believe that the members of iSage were in cahoots with the identity warriors of BLM? Ridiculous and absurd.

    But what's worse is that this horse-shit distracts and devalues what is basically good analysis.

    Rant over.
    I disagree

    In passing themselves off as a quasi-government institution, drawing on the brand name (and undermining them with the implication that they were not independent) they were trying to aggregate - successfully - authority they didn’t deserve.

    This had the net impact of weakening the ability of the government to get its message out. The media played along with it because they liked a story but that doesn’t let iSage off the hook
    I don't think we should overthink this. Academics/Scientists can be rather precious with some huge egos. The more senior they become, the more they buy into their own hype (the ones so inclined, that is). I can easily see a scenario where a bunch of people with a particular mindset coming together, thinking they're right about the course of the Pandemic and forming iSAGE to promote that (perhaps, deep down, for some of them, because they weren't on SAGE). Essentially, iSAGE was just a public taste of University politics.

    I don't think it was about passing themselves off a semi-governmental organisation, just standard self-aggrandisement with a dash of 'I know more than these other idiots'.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited February 2022
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Excellent header, Cyclefree. I suspect you have this ready to go for some time ?

    As far as external stakeholders who put and keep sustained pressure on it to make that change; and... goes, we've already had the Chair of the London Assembly Police and Crime Committee on R4 this morning criticising the decision to terminate Dick, and claiming that '99% of officers are brave and good'...
    Not a great start.

    Part of the problem, of course. I have no doubt that many of the homophobic etc officers are physical;y brave and, where homophobia isn't an issue, competent.
    With society being more open than in the past, gay people form a sizeable percentage of the population (about 5%). That makes homophobia a career issue for people like the Police.

    2.7% including Bisexuals and Other, albeit higher in London and younger age groups.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/sexuality/bulletins/sexualidentityuk/2019
    Yes 6.6% LGB amongst 16 to 24 year olds, 3.8% LGB in London. Both clearly above the UK average
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Mr and Mrs Johnson are likely recipients of the letters. Anybody getting one had seven days to offer a “reasonable excuse” for suspected criminal behaviour. After that, a fixed penalty notice would follow.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/02/10/cressida-dicks-resignation-means-boris-johnson-partygate-investigation/

    We could be 7 days from FPN time
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    HYUFD said:

    Biden confirms he will not send any US troops to Ukraine if Russia invades, even to rescue any US citizens left there. He urges all Americans left in Ukraine to get out now

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60342814

    More troops, no.

    Those four B-52s that just turned up at Fairford, for ‘pre-planned exercises that have nothing to do with the Ukranian situation’ on the other hand. Maybe they came to admire the English countryside.
This discussion has been closed.