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Trust matters. – politicalbetting.com

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  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,280
    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,280

    Heathener said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Been watching the team figure skating.

    Oh my oh my Kamila Valieva is just astonishing. If you get a chance, do watch her performance today. At 15 she's the second youngest competitor at Beijing and the youngest figure skater but she has such presence on the ice and, as Robin Cousins said, such a believable honest performance. It's breathtaking to watch.

    If you need a filip and escape from the arguing and a reaffirmation about human creativity ... watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135

    Sadly not a real sport. If you need judges to tell you who won, it doesn’t count.
    The Olympic motto is “Faster, Higher, Stronger”, not “Impress The Judges”.
    Also slightly harder to rig things if someone, say, crosses a line first...
    Formula 1 had a pretty good go at it, a couple of months back.

    But yes, sporting results should be decided with a stopwatch or a tape measure.
    You really are being an utter dick

    So ... erm cricket?

    Figure skating has a huge technical merit component.

    But you know what ... I can't be bothered to sit here in a pointless argument with an old bit of gammon who knows nothing about culture and aesthetic beauty, creativity and human endeavour, sport and achievement.

    Or indeed very much about anything in the world beyond their computer screen.

    It really is quite bizarre how some old gammons just sit on here for a fight. Get a life.
    There are lines all over the place in cricket - the boundary, the popping crease, three great big sticks of wood stuck into the ground. It's all lines, so that it's all categorical judgements rather than qualitative ones.
    LBW?
    Now mostly checked if any doubt using ball tracking etc.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,247
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    Been watching the team figure skating.

    Oh my oh my Kamila Valieva is just astonishing. If you get a chance, do watch her performance today. At 15 she's the second youngest competitor at Beijing and the youngest figure skater but she has such presence on the ice and, as Robin Cousins said, such a believable honest performance. It's breathtaking to watch.

    If you need a filip and escape from the arguing and a reaffirmation about human creativity ... watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135

    Sadly not a real sport. If you need judges to tell you who won, it doesn’t count.
    At least it's not as boring as fucking Cricket!

    Standing around in a field for five days on the trot is NOT a REAL SPORT :lol:
    Fucking cricket? Sounds interesting. I'd be well up for that.

    And I daresay England could field a team that would be quite good at it, led by Ian Botham...
    Now there’s a man who can play well with his middle stump.
    He once bowled with it on full display:

    https://www.cricketcountry.com/articles/ian-botham-lets-the-old-man-out-on-his-final-day-in-first-class-cricket-159325
  • tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I know very little about figure skating, but that looked amazing.

    What’s the racism angle here?
    Heathener is one of those sad sacks who thinks everything is racist if it is done by a white man.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,143

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    She’s a figure skater, not a dancer like Torvill and Dean were.

    I get the sense that judges in the Olympics are honest.

    Boxing judges on the other hand...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,600

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Indeed. We might just as well have ballroom dancing in the Olympics.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,058

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Do you consider boxing a sport ?
  • @Sandpit

    '...Cricket is really easy, you count runs and the team with the most of them is the winner.'

    Careful, Sandy. What about the LBW law?

    And then there's the occasional dodgy catch, run out, no ball etc.

    I've no doubt that Cricket is a proper sport, but there is definitely a subjective element in many decisions.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,600

    Heathener said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Been watching the team figure skating.

    Oh my oh my Kamila Valieva is just astonishing. If you get a chance, do watch her performance today. At 15 she's the second youngest competitor at Beijing and the youngest figure skater but she has such presence on the ice and, as Robin Cousins said, such a believable honest performance. It's breathtaking to watch.

    If you need a filip and escape from the arguing and a reaffirmation about human creativity ... watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135

    Sadly not a real sport. If you need judges to tell you who won, it doesn’t count.
    The Olympic motto is “Faster, Higher, Stronger”, not “Impress The Judges”.
    Also slightly harder to rig things if someone, say, crosses a line first...
    Formula 1 had a pretty good go at it, a couple of months back.

    But yes, sporting results should be decided with a stopwatch or a tape measure.
    You really are being an utter dick

    So ... erm cricket?

    Figure skating has a huge technical merit component.

    But you know what ... I can't be bothered to sit here in a pointless argument with an old bit of gammon who knows nothing about culture and aesthetic beauty, creativity and human endeavour, sport and achievement.

    Or indeed very much about anything in the world beyond their computer screen.

    It really is quite bizarre how some old gammons just sit on here for a fight. Get a life.
    There are lines all over the place in cricket - the boundary, the popping crease, three great big sticks of wood stuck into the ground. It's all lines, so that it's all categorical judgements rather than qualitative ones.
    LBW?
    Is a decision made based on lines again. And these days because it is difficult to do with just the naked eye at the highest level it is backed up by technology. There is no decision based on artistic merit.
    Gymnastics would have to go too of course.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,280
    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    Been watching the team figure skating.

    Oh my oh my Kamila Valieva is just astonishing. If you get a chance, do watch her performance today. At 15 she's the second youngest competitor at Beijing and the youngest figure skater but she has such presence on the ice and, as Robin Cousins said, such a believable honest performance. It's breathtaking to watch.

    If you need a filip and escape from the arguing and a reaffirmation about human creativity ... watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135

    Sadly not a real sport. If you need judges to tell you who won, it doesn’t count.
    At least it's not as boring as fucking Cricket!

    Standing around in a field for five days on the trot is NOT a REAL SPORT :lol:
    Fucking cricket? Sounds interesting. I'd be well up for that.

    And I daresay England could field a team that would be quite good at it, led by Ian Botham...
    Also Graeme Thorpe, apparently.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,217
    Pulpstar said:

    Qualitative judgements

    Are we on about the scrum in the rugby ?

    Rugby Union would probably be better without the scrum.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,979
    edited February 2022
    Pulpstar said:

    Qualitative judgements

    Are we on about the scrum in the rugby ?

    That's not a qualitative judgement in general, it's just a scam that for some reason everyone ignores. Individual occasions I leave to the viewer.
  • Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    Her performance is indeed brilliant. Yours ? Less so.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,280

    Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Been watching the team figure skating.

    Oh my oh my Kamila Valieva is just astonishing. If you get a chance, do watch her performance today. At 15 she's the second youngest competitor at Beijing and the youngest figure skater but she has such presence on the ice and, as Robin Cousins said, such a believable honest performance. It's breathtaking to watch.

    If you need a filip and escape from the arguing and a reaffirmation about human creativity ... watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135

    Sadly not a real sport. If you need judges to tell you who won, it doesn’t count.
    The Olympic motto is “Faster, Higher, Stronger”, not “Impress The Judges”.
    Also slightly harder to rig things if someone, say, crosses a line first...
    Formula 1 had a pretty good go at it, a couple of months back.

    But yes, sporting results should be decided with a stopwatch or a tape measure.
    You really are being an utter dick

    So ... erm cricket?

    Figure skating has a huge technical merit component.

    But you know what ... I can't be bothered to sit here in a pointless argument with an old bit of gammon who knows nothing about culture and aesthetic beauty, creativity and human endeavour, sport and achievement.

    Or indeed very much about anything in the world beyond their computer screen.

    It really is quite bizarre how some old gammons just sit on here for a fight. Get a life.
    Glad to know what you really think, at least it isn’t me with the unhealty obsession with young ladies in sport.

    Cricket is really easy, you count runs and the team with the most of them is the winner. You have umpires to make sure the runs are counted fairly, and that batsmen walk when they’re out. There’s very little subjectivity, especially now we use TV camera replays and ball tracking software.

    Figure skating is now quite literally reality TV, alongside ballroom dancing. It doesn’t mean it’s not hard work, but as a sport it’s a waste of a good ice hockey rink.
    Quite a lot of sports include human judgement of form - gymnastics, dressage, I think diving too.
    I refer the right honourable gentleman to the answer I gave above. These are not sports, at least in the turbotubbs world.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,892
    edited February 2022

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Indeed. We might just as well have ballroom dancing in the Olympics.
    Breakdancing is being trialed in 2024.
  • Roger said:

    Cicero said:

    malcolmg said:

    Cicero said:

    malcolmg said:

    Aslan said:

    Scottish deficit: 22% of GDP
    UK deficit: 14% of GDP

    Nobody knows the real numbers, certainly not the crooks running teh show. They use fag packets to work it out. Anyone thinking otherwise is not right in the head.
    Well, you can work out quite a lot from OECD, IMF and World Bank numbers and they are pretty consistent. So, while you might not like the numbers, the reality is that Scotland would need to go through at least 2 decades of restructuring which would be difficult and painful and you can´t just wish that away. You may think it is worth the pain and that is fair enough, but too many Nats just pretend that its unicorns and rainbows all the way from the day we go it alone, and the "RUK will pay our pensions at no cost to the Scottish government" is just the latest example of wildly wishful thinking. I´d respect the Nat position a lot more if they were honest: "it will be hard, but worth it" rather than "we are so fantastic that it will be easy and the gold rolls in from day one", which is nonsense on stilts and as dishonest as the Tories over Brexit.
    The wishful thinking on pensions here is all by unionists, no Scottish person has said anything of the sort.I am happy to go with the fact that all small countries are doing very well with far less resources than Scotland and as you say given we have been ripped off for so long in UK , it will take a while to build up infrastructure, however again I look at all th eeastern European countries who started from scratch not so long ago and nearly all have better livin standards than the UK, so no real issue there either.
    You lot should be more concerned how rump UK will survive and be able to pay its debts once all the services are gone abroad and there is little left other than flipping burgers or civil service/council jobs.
    There you go again... It is not the case that any of the CEE states has yet acheived economic numbers anywhere close to the UK, and I have been involved in this region for over 40 years in one way or another. Slovenia, the wealthiest CEE economy per capita had in 2020 a GDP/capita of USD 25,459 and the UK USD 40, 428. Bulgaria´s 2020 GDP/capita was only USD 10,006. These by the way are pretty good numbers and reflect nearly 3 decades of economic restructuring and growth.

    So nice try, but provably untrue. Scotland and the rest of the UK may have significant structural issues, but the UK economy remains large, diverse and, depending on your source, is between the fifth and seventh largest economy in the world. Again I´d have a bit more respect for the Nat position if they did not keep spouting such mince. Bad tempered bollocks is not a credible economic or political argument. Sure Scotland "could" be an independent country, but the price is high and in my view is not worth it. If, instead of dismissing the facts, you admitted them and told us how you were going to deal with them then maybe you could make a case, but the truth is that pretending these serious problems don´t exist destroys the credibility of any other arguement you make.
    A very persuasive and fact filled argument by Cicero but being dragged out of the EU against the wishes of a vast majority of their countrymen is not acceptable in 2022. If 'sovereignty' trumps the damage Brexit does to the rest of the UK why shouldn't it in Scotland?

    Brexit is screwing all of us. Scotland unlike the rest of the UK have a slim window to avoid the self serving decision made by Johnson and his cronies. If I was Scottish I'd certainly take it. It's got to be worth the risks
    You, me and Brian, Rog.


  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,346
    edited February 2022
    The discussion about pensions has also reminded me of what a stupid and unfair tax National Insurance is. I would have a lot more confidence in paying it, if there was some guarantee as to what I will ultimately recieve in retirement, by way of the state pension. But there is no such guarantee and no contract, as others have pointed out. It all essentially relies on the policies of whatever government is in power when I retire. It is too uncertain to rely on.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,600
    glw said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Indeed. We might just as well have ballroom dancing in the Olympics.
    Breakdancing is being trialed in 2024.
    Oops yes, so it is. I forgot that.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,280
    Pulpstar said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Do you consider boxing a sport ?
    That’s a tricky one. In the sense that scoring is allegedly done when a punch connects and is agreed by two out of three judges, then at least I get the mechanism. But in truth for me, unless it’s to a knock out, no. It’s also regularly a laughing stock for bent judges, even at Olympic level.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,145
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    pigeon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    malcolmg said:

    Applicant said:

    Reposting FPT, because this exquisite example of begging the question, in the traditional sense, deserves better than being left on the tail end of a dead thread.

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    I'm really struggling to understand the viewpoint of those who think rump UK would retain a liability to pay Scottish State Pensions. Another poster made the point quite simply when they asked: "Who would set the rate at which the Scottish State Pension was paid?"

    Suppose that inflation was higher in Scotland than in the rump UK - would Scottish politicians really be happy with seeing pension payments to Scottish pensioners decline in real terms? What if Scottish politicians didn't want to increase the State Pension Retirement age as quickly as in the rump UK - would they really cede this area of policy-making to the rump UK Parliament?

    And there's no way that rump UK could sign a blank cheque to pay any level of increase to a Scottish State Pension - what if Scottish politicians wanted to increase it towards the Western European average?

    Scottish politicians would have to find the money for Scottish state pensions in the Scottish budget if they wanted the independence to make Scottish political decisions over what the level of the pension should be. That's the essence of the Nationalist argument for Independence anyway, so strange for them to try to argue otherwise.

    In what currency would the Scottish State Pension be paid?
    The currency of Scotland Doh!
    Well done, Malc!
    It is hard to believe how stupid these unionists get at times, makes you wonder if they are as bad as they make out or if they just get red rage when Scotland leaving is mentioned. They lose all sense of reality.
    Question from an emigrant as well who has no part to play in it.
    I don't see why the UK would get out of funding the Scot's partial entitlements to our state pension - but I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise.
    Because there isn’t a “fund” of National Insurance money like there is for a private pension (not strictly true, there’s enough to cover 2 weeks worth of pensions, but that’s it) so state pensions are paid out of current taxation.

    So the SNP are arguing that English tax payers would be paying for Scottish pensions.

    Why?
    The fund issue is a red herring. If I owe you money I owe you money, and it makes not the slightest difference whether I have a pot set aside to pay you or have to make the payment out of income. The one situation where it makes all the difference in the world is if I go bankrupt, because a simple debt gets pro rated down along with other debts whereas a specific fund may be earmarked for you in is entirety. Governments with their own currency cannot go bankrupt.

    Here is how absurd the fund argument is: you say there is no fund, only an unsecured promise by the government to pay. But if you have a pension fund which you want to be as secure as possible where do you invest it? You invest it in gilts. What are gilts? They are unsecured promises by the government to pay.

    Additionally it is misleading to say English taxpayers would be paying Scottish pensions. The government would be paying. The money might originate from English taxpayers, but so what? If I pay you a debt out of earned income the money originates with my employers. That doesn't mean they are paying you. I am.
    Why shouldn't the Scottish Taxpayers take responsibility to pay the state pensions of Scottish Pensioners.

    Would MalcolmG and co deem it fair if we offered the reverse terms to Scotland - you can have a referendum if you accept that on separation you pay the state pension of all rUK pensioners.
    Because Scottish pensioners had a bargain with the UK government: they paid ni contributions in exchange for a future pension. If the UK splits and the obligation is split pro rata to size of country 95% of the obligation stays with rUK, and conversely iS is liable for 5% of e and w pensions.
    No. They may have thought that they were paying NI contributions in exchange for a pension, but they were actually paying tax.

    You're making the fundamental mistake of confusing private sector pensions (in which there exists a contractual obligation for the employer or provider to whom the contributions are being made to stump up on retirement) and the state pension (which is a social security benefit, no different at all to child benefit or JSA, for example, and which the Government can amend, and could theoretically decide to withdraw or replace entirely, at any time.)

    Many British voters labour under the false assumption that national insurance payments all go into a massive pot to pay out contributory pensions to them, personally. Many British politicians have found it convenient from time to time to harp on about the contributory principle. But, to borrow a phrase, it's all rhubarb.

    Therefore, whilst there are indeed pension complexities to be resolved (e.g. in respect of occupational pensions paid to UK state employees, or in cases where people have lived and worked for some time on both sides of the border,) for the majority of Scots who have never lived or worked outside of Scotland, the entire liability for funding their social security benefits - including state pensions - will be assumed by the Scottish Government upon independence. Nothing else makes any sense at all.
    No, you are making the mistake. It makes no difference whether there is a pot or not *unless the paying party goes broke.* The UK cannot go broke.

    NI contributions are effectively a contract under which UK has existing obligations which are not abrogated by Scindy. What is rhubarb, is saying that they are not contributions, they are just a thing which the naive and uninitiated might be misled into thinking were contributions, because of their slightly misleading name "contributions." Even if there were merit in the argument, which there isn't, would you be proud to live in a country which took such an unbelievably shitty point against poor, elderly individuals?
    A lawyer claiming something is “effectively a contract” is admitting it *isn’t* a contract…
    Yes. So what? If you want it spelled out, it would be a contract if the parties were private entities or corporations.
    And if my auntie had balls she’d be my uncle
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,456
    geoffw said:

    Good explanation of Scotland's currency options by an expert (Ronnie MacDonald): What would the currency options be for an independent Scotland?
    https://www.economicsobservatory.com/what-would-the-currency-options-be-for-an-independent-scotland

    it concludes:

    For a newly independent Scotland with a balance of payments deficit and fiscal deficit, the initial currency depreciation could be steep, with knock-on implications for the value of assets and liabilities denominated in sterling. Issues of redenomination and transactions costs would loom large.

    But this currency thistle of redenomination has to be grasped at some point on the journey to Scottish independence. The message of this article is that if Scotland is to become independent, the sooner this is addressed, the better given the way that capital markets operate in a globalised economy.

    That’s a good piece. Also:

    As other countries’ experiences demonstrate, the only sustainable way to preserve the fixed exchange rate relationship would be to run a fiscal surplus (see Tetlow and Soter, 2021). But this would require a significant programme of fiscal consolidation from Scotland’s likely initial starting position (with knock-on implications for policy choices post-independence).

    In practice, the only way the currency issue gets resolved without a large depreciation, is a peg to the Euro on Day 1, with the ECB standing behind that peg.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Do you consider boxing a sport ?
    That's an interesting and complex one.

    The further back in history you go the less subjectivity there was in deciding who won. Time was when you just kept going until the opponent was senseless, if not actually dead.

    Judges giving decisions 'on points' is a relatively modern devlopment.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,287
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    Been watching the team figure skating.

    Oh my oh my Kamila Valieva is just astonishing. If you get a chance, do watch her performance today. At 15 she's the second youngest competitor at Beijing and the youngest figure skater but she has such presence on the ice and, as Robin Cousins said, such a believable honest performance. It's breathtaking to watch.

    If you need a filip and escape from the arguing and a reaffirmation about human creativity ... watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135

    Sadly not a real sport. If you need judges to tell you who won, it doesn’t count.
    At least it's not as boring as fucking Cricket!

    Standing around in a field for five days on the trot is NOT a REAL SPORT :lol:
    Fucking cricket? Sounds interesting. I'd be well up for that.

    And I daresay England could field a team that would be quite good at it, led by Ian Botham...
    Now there’s a man who can play well with his middle stump.
    He once bowled with it on full display:

    https://www.cricketcountry.com/articles/ian-botham-lets-the-old-man-out-on-his-final-day-in-first-class-cricket-159325
    Wasn’t it posted on Twitter too, his old man.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Do you consider boxing a sport ?
    That’s a tricky one. In the sense that scoring is allegedly done when a punch connects and is agreed by two out of three judges, then at least I get the mechanism. But in truth for me, unless it’s to a knock out, no. It’s also regularly a laughing stock for bent judges, even at Olympic level.
    It has actually been dropped from the LA Olymics 2028 because the IOC got fed up with the rigging.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,217

    @Sandpit

    '...Cricket is really easy, you count runs and the team with the most of them is the winner.'

    Careful, Sandy. What about the LBW law?

    And then there's the occasional dodgy catch, run out, no ball etc.

    I've no doubt that Cricket is a proper sport, but there is definitely a subjective element in many decisions.

    Even in the 100m the two fastest runners can sometimes be so evenly matched that there is a subjective element to who crossed the line first - hence a photo finish. But the judgement to be made is still a categorical one, one runner or the other was first, the catch was taken before the ball hit the ground, no part of the heel was behind the line, etc.

    This is very different to deciding whether one skater executed the double-twist in a more pleasing way than another, or had a better sequence of moves, etc. Those are judgements where two performances can often be reasonably judged differently - which is why often a panel of judges is used, rather than a singular judge - and so there is not necessarily a truth as to which performance was best. While, with a catch, though it might be hard to say with certainty whether it was grassed or not, we know that it either was, or wasn't, if only we could observe it accurately.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,287

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    Her performance is indeed brilliant. Yours ? Less so.
    True but that performance is consistent.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,979
    edited February 2022

    @Sandpit

    '...Cricket is really easy, you count runs and the team with the most of them is the winner.'

    Careful, Sandy. What about the LBW law?

    And then there's the occasional dodgy catch, run out, no ball etc.

    I've no doubt that Cricket is a proper sport, but there is definitely a subjective element in many decisions.

    Even in the 100m the two fastest runners can sometimes be so evenly matched that there is a subjective element to who crossed the line first - hence a photo finish. But the judgement to be made is still a categorical one, one runner or the other was first, the catch was taken before the ball hit the ground, no part of the heel was behind the line, etc.

    This is very different to deciding whether one skater executed the double-twist in a more pleasing way than another, or had a better sequence of moves, etc. Those are judgements where two performances can often be reasonably judged differently - which is why often a panel of judges is used, rather than a singular judge - and so there is not necessarily a truth as to which performance was best. While, with a catch, though it might be hard to say with certainty whether it was grassed or not, we know that it either was, or wasn't, if only we could observe it accurately.
    Wouldn't be so much of an issue if artistic endeavours were recognised in the Olympics alongside sport again, as that would capture highly physical yet problematicallty subjective events.

    Once you know people won Olympic Gold Medals for Town Planning, you don't really look at the competition the same way.
  • @Sandpit

    '...Cricket is really easy, you count runs and the team with the most of them is the winner.'

    Careful, Sandy. What about the LBW law?

    And then there's the occasional dodgy catch, run out, no ball etc.

    I've no doubt that Cricket is a proper sport, but there is definitely a subjective element in many decisions.

    Even in the 100m the two fastest runners can sometimes be so evenly matched that there is a subjective element to who crossed the line first - hence a photo finish. But the judgement to be made is still a categorical one, one runner or the other was first, the catch was taken before the ball hit the ground, no part of the heel was behind the line, etc.

    This is very different to deciding whether one skater executed the double-twist in a more pleasing way than another, or had a better sequence of moves, etc. Those are judgements where two performances can often be reasonably judged differently - which is why often a panel of judges is used, rather than a singular judge - and so there is not necessarily a truth as to which performance was best. While, with a catch, though it might be hard to say with certainty whether it was grassed or not, we know that it either was, or wasn't, if only we could observe it accurately.
    And LBW? And no-balls?

    Some bowlers have distinctly dodgy actions - Muralitharan for example - and deciding whether they are legal is a highly subjective matter.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,287

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    Been watching the team figure skating.

    Oh my oh my Kamila Valieva is just astonishing. If you get a chance, do watch her performance today. At 15 she's the second youngest competitor at Beijing and the youngest figure skater but she has such presence on the ice and, as Robin Cousins said, such a believable honest performance. It's breathtaking to watch.

    If you need a filip and escape from the arguing and a reaffirmation about human creativity ... watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135

    Sadly not a real sport. If you need judges to tell you who won, it doesn’t count.
    At least it's not as boring as fucking Cricket!

    Standing around in a field for five days on the trot is NOT a REAL SPORT :lol:
    Fucking cricket? Sounds interesting. I'd be well up for that.

    And I daresay England could field a team that would be quite good at it, led by Ian Botham...
    '''Who once very famously got his leg over out in the middle. :)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsVTpX7LdZQ
    The legendary Inzi did the same and was, given his ample size, far from elegant too.

    One of may favourite cricketers of all time. Wonderful batsman
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    Loving the way you get a derogatory white, and racism, into the same 4 sentence post. And the assumption that anyone can be arsed to click your link to ascertain the colour of the skater. Is she a white gammon?
  • Taz said:



    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    Been watching the team figure skating.

    Oh my oh my Kamila Valieva is just astonishing. If you get a chance, do watch her performance today. At 15 she's the second youngest competitor at Beijing and the youngest figure skater but she has such presence on the ice and, as Robin Cousins said, such a believable honest performance. It's breathtaking to watch.

    If you need a filip and escape from the arguing and a reaffirmation about human creativity ... watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135

    Sadly not a real sport. If you need judges to tell you who won, it doesn’t count.
    At least it's not as boring as fucking Cricket!

    Standing around in a field for five days on the trot is NOT a REAL SPORT :lol:
    Fucking cricket? Sounds interesting. I'd be well up for that.

    And I daresay England could field a team that would be quite good at it, led by Ian Botham...
    '''Who once very famously got his leg over out in the middle. :)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsVTpX7LdZQ
    The legendary Inzi did the same and was, given his ample size, far from elegant too.

    One of may favourite cricketers of all time. Wonderful batsman
    Bowlers around the world had almost as little chance of survival as his pudding.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,517
    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    Lovely - and she makes it look easy!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,979
    edited February 2022

    @Sandpit

    '...Cricket is really easy, you count runs and the team with the most of them is the winner.'

    Careful, Sandy. What about the LBW law?

    And then there's the occasional dodgy catch, run out, no ball etc.

    I've no doubt that Cricket is a proper sport, but there is definitely a subjective element in many decisions.

    Even in the 100m the two fastest runners can sometimes be so evenly matched that there is a subjective element to who crossed the line first - hence a photo finish. But the judgement to be made is still a categorical one, one runner or the other was first, the catch was taken before the ball hit the ground, no part of the heel was behind the line, etc.

    This is very different to deciding whether one skater executed the double-twist in a more pleasing way than another, or had a better sequence of moves, etc. Those are judgements where two performances can often be reasonably judged differently - which is why often a panel of judges is used, rather than a singular judge - and so there is not necessarily a truth as to which performance was best. While, with a catch, though it might be hard to say with certainty whether it was grassed or not, we know that it either was, or wasn't, if only we could observe it accurately.
    And LBW? And no-balls?

    Some bowlers have distinctly dodgy actions - Muralitharan for example - and deciding whether they are legal is a highly subjective matter.
    I suppose a question here is whether subjective judgements are part of the discipline, and whether these are capable of challenge/verification, or if the entire outcome is solely a subjective determination.

    I find the lind a bit blurry. I think diving qualifies, as though I struggle to know why one routine is a precise level more highly rated than another I can usually at least see it is challenging and can tell if it was well executed to some degree, but others would dispute that one. Gymnastics routines are judged subjectively but I'd feel excluding what is such impressive physical displays to feel a bit off. Horse Dancing may well be technically difficult to do, but I'd cut.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,443
    edited February 2022
    Sandpit said:

    geoffw said:

    Good explanation of Scotland's currency options by an expert (Ronnie MacDonald): What would the currency options be for an independent Scotland?
    https://www.economicsobservatory.com/what-would-the-currency-options-be-for-an-independent-scotland

    it concludes:

    For a newly independent Scotland with a balance of payments deficit and fiscal deficit, the initial currency depreciation could be steep, with knock-on implications for the value of assets and liabilities denominated in sterling. Issues of redenomination and transactions costs would loom large.

    But this currency thistle of redenomination has to be grasped at some point on the journey to Scottish independence. The message of this article is that if Scotland is to become independent, the sooner this is addressed, the better given the way that capital markets operate in a globalised economy.

    That’s a good piece. Also:

    As other countries’ experiences demonstrate, the only sustainable way to preserve the fixed exchange rate relationship would be to run a fiscal surplus (see Tetlow and Soter, 2021). But this would require a significant programme of fiscal consolidation from Scotland’s likely initial starting position (with knock-on implications for policy choices post-independence).

    In practice, the only way the currency issue gets resolved without a large depreciation, is a peg to the Euro on Day 1, with the ECB standing behind that peg.
    An independent currency pegged to another which 'stands behind it' is not an independent currency. And an independent Scotland with a currency that is not independent is not an independent Scotland.

    It's all part of a barmy charade in which Scotland (some of it) values its links with Lithuania more than with England, and wants to be free of wicked old England while losing its independence.

    England is its largest market.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857
    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    geoffw said:

    Good explanation of Scotland's currency options by an expert (Ronnie MacDonald): What would the currency options be for an independent Scotland?
    https://www.economicsobservatory.com/what-would-the-currency-options-be-for-an-independent-scotland

    it concludes:

    For a newly independent Scotland with a balance of payments deficit and fiscal deficit, the initial currency depreciation could be steep, with knock-on implications for the value of assets and liabilities denominated in sterling. Issues of redenomination and transactions costs would loom large.

    But this currency thistle of redenomination has to be grasped at some point on the journey to Scottish independence. The message of this article is that if Scotland is to become independent, the sooner this is addressed, the better given the way that capital markets operate in a globalised economy.

    That’s a good piece. Also:

    As other countries’ experiences demonstrate, the only sustainable way to preserve the fixed exchange rate relationship would be to run a fiscal surplus (see Tetlow and Soter, 2021). But this would require a significant programme of fiscal consolidation from Scotland’s likely initial starting position (with knock-on implications for policy choices post-independence).

    In practice, the only way the currency issue gets resolved without a large depreciation, is a peg to the Euro on Day 1, with the ECB standing behind that peg.
    An independent currency pegged to another which 'stands behind it' is not an independent currency.

    The fate of various countries who tried pegging their currencies to the dollar, over the years, would be instructive.
  • glw said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Indeed. We might just as well have ballroom dancing in the Olympics.
    Breakdancing is being trialed in 2024.
    "They're breakdance-fighting!"
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,304
    edited February 2022
    kle4 said:

    @Sandpit

    '...Cricket is really easy, you count runs and the team with the most of them is the winner.'

    Careful, Sandy. What about the LBW law?

    And then there's the occasional dodgy catch, run out, no ball etc.

    I've no doubt that Cricket is a proper sport, but there is definitely a subjective element in many decisions.

    Even in the 100m the two fastest runners can sometimes be so evenly matched that there is a subjective element to who crossed the line first - hence a photo finish. But the judgement to be made is still a categorical one, one runner or the other was first, the catch was taken before the ball hit the ground, no part of the heel was behind the line, etc.

    This is very different to deciding whether one skater executed the double-twist in a more pleasing way than another, or had a better sequence of moves, etc. Those are judgements where two performances can often be reasonably judged differently - which is why often a panel of judges is used, rather than a singular judge - and so there is not necessarily a truth as to which performance was best. While, with a catch, though it might be hard to say with certainty whether it was grassed or not, we know that it either was, or wasn't, if only we could observe it accurately.
    And LBW? And no-balls?

    Some bowlers have distinctly dodgy actions - Muralitharan for example - and deciding whether they are legal is a highly subjective matter.
    I suppose a question here is whether subjective judgements are part of the discipline, and whether these are capable of challenge/verification, or if the entire outcome is solely a subjective

    I find the lind a bit blurry. I think diving qualifies, as though I struggle to know why one routine is a precise level more highly rated than another I can usually at least see it is challenging and can tell if it was well executed to some degree, but others would dispute that one. Gymnastics routines are judged subjectively but I'd feel excluding what is such impressive physical displays to feel a bit off. Horse Dancing may well be technically difficult to do, but I'd cut.
    Yes it's a question of degree, and a continuum I would suggest. Foot races would be at one end, and syncronised swimming at the other (preferably off it, imo.)

    Any subjectivity in the judging is a downer, but altheticism and tradition are positives. This helps gymnastics, and 'Horse Dancing' which I believe was one of the original sports in the ancient Greek Olympiads.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,517
    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    She’s a figure skater, not a dancer like Torvill and Dean were.

    I get the sense that judges in the Olympics are honest.

    Boxing judges on the other hand...
    The rules for figure skating are very precise and very demanding - it's not just judges saying "gosh, that looked nice" like you and me. I'm not a regular fan - just watched this as Heathener was recommending it - but I remember my mother was and she could reel off all the specific performances needed.

    I guess that gymanstics and dressage are comparable - can't remember if dressage is an Olympcic sport, but fans do get excited about gymnastics. I think that it's fine to have a variety of types of physical brilliance at the Olympics, not just track and field. Something for (almost) everybody.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,456
    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    geoffw said:

    Good explanation of Scotland's currency options by an expert (Ronnie MacDonald): What would the currency options be for an independent Scotland?
    https://www.economicsobservatory.com/what-would-the-currency-options-be-for-an-independent-scotland

    it concludes:

    For a newly independent Scotland with a balance of payments deficit and fiscal deficit, the initial currency depreciation could be steep, with knock-on implications for the value of assets and liabilities denominated in sterling. Issues of redenomination and transactions costs would loom large.

    But this currency thistle of redenomination has to be grasped at some point on the journey to Scottish independence. The message of this article is that if Scotland is to become independent, the sooner this is addressed, the better given the way that capital markets operate in a globalised economy.

    That’s a good piece. Also:

    As other countries’ experiences demonstrate, the only sustainable way to preserve the fixed exchange rate relationship would be to run a fiscal surplus (see Tetlow and Soter, 2021). But this would require a significant programme of fiscal consolidation from Scotland’s likely initial starting position (with knock-on implications for policy choices post-independence).

    In practice, the only way the currency issue gets resolved without a large depreciation, is a peg to the Euro on Day 1, with the ECB standing behind that peg.
    An independent currency pegged to another which 'stands behind it' is not an independent currency.

    Indeed not, but the last thing a newly-independent Scotland would want is a floating independent currency. Even the suggestion of it would lead to capital flight, and on launch day it would be smashed to bits.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857

    Pulpstar said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Do you consider boxing a sport ?
    That’s a tricky one. In the sense that scoring is allegedly done when a punch connects and is agreed by two out of three judges, then at least I get the mechanism. But in truth for me, unless it’s to a knock out, no. It’s also regularly a laughing stock for bent judges, even at Olympic level.
    It has actually been dropped from the LA Olymics 2028 because the IOC got fed up with the rigging.
    I think, examining the evidence, WWE wrestling is less staged and fixed than major boxing.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,456

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    geoffw said:

    Good explanation of Scotland's currency options by an expert (Ronnie MacDonald): What would the currency options be for an independent Scotland?
    https://www.economicsobservatory.com/what-would-the-currency-options-be-for-an-independent-scotland

    it concludes:

    For a newly independent Scotland with a balance of payments deficit and fiscal deficit, the initial currency depreciation could be steep, with knock-on implications for the value of assets and liabilities denominated in sterling. Issues of redenomination and transactions costs would loom large.

    But this currency thistle of redenomination has to be grasped at some point on the journey to Scottish independence. The message of this article is that if Scotland is to become independent, the sooner this is addressed, the better given the way that capital markets operate in a globalised economy.

    That’s a good piece. Also:

    As other countries’ experiences demonstrate, the only sustainable way to preserve the fixed exchange rate relationship would be to run a fiscal surplus (see Tetlow and Soter, 2021). But this would require a significant programme of fiscal consolidation from Scotland’s likely initial starting position (with knock-on implications for policy choices post-independence).

    In practice, the only way the currency issue gets resolved without a large depreciation, is a peg to the Euro on Day 1, with the ECB standing behind that peg.
    An independent currency pegged to another which 'stands behind it' is not an independent currency.

    The fate of various countries who tried pegging their currencies to the dollar, over the years, would be instructive.
    The Gulf states do pretty well with a dollar peg - but most of their exports are dollar-denominated minerals.
  • Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Been watching the team figure skating.

    Oh my oh my Kamila Valieva is just astonishing. If you get a chance, do watch her performance today. At 15 she's the second youngest competitor at Beijing and the youngest figure skater but she has such presence on the ice and, as Robin Cousins said, such a believable honest performance. It's breathtaking to watch.

    If you need a filip and escape from the arguing and a reaffirmation about human creativity ... watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135

    Sadly not a real sport. If you need judges to tell you who won, it doesn’t count.
    The Olympic motto is “Faster, Higher, Stronger”, not “Impress The Judges”.
    Also slightly harder to rig things if someone, say, crosses a line first...
    Formula 1 had a pretty good go at it, a couple of months back.

    But yes, sporting results should be decided with a stopwatch or a tape measure.
    You really are being an utter dick

    So ... erm cricket?

    Figure skating has a huge technical merit component.

    But you know what ... I can't be bothered to sit here in a pointless argument with an old bit of gammon who knows nothing about culture and aesthetic beauty, creativity and human endeavour, sport and achievement.

    Or indeed very much about anything in the world beyond their computer screen.

    It really is quite bizarre how some old gammons just sit on here for a fight. Get a life.
    Glad to know what you really think, at least it isn’t me with the unhealty obsession with young ladies in sport.

    Cricket is really easy, you count runs and the team with the most of them is the winner. You have umpires to make sure the runs are counted fairly, and that batsmen walk when they’re out. There’s very little subjectivity, especially now we use TV camera replays and ball tracking software.

    Figure skating is now quite literally reality TV, alongside ballroom dancing. It doesn’t mean it’s not hard work, but as a sport it’s a waste of a good ice hockey rink.
    Quite a lot of sports include human judgement of form - gymnastics, dressage, I think diving too.
    I refer the right honourable gentleman to the answer I gave above. These are not sports, at least in the turbotubbs world.
    And I repeat, cricket is not a REAL SPORT as they stand around in a field for five days on the trot!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,503
    edited February 2022

    kle4 said:

    @Sandpit

    '...Cricket is really easy, you count runs and the team with the most of them is the winner.'

    Careful, Sandy. What about the LBW law?

    And then there's the occasional dodgy catch, run out, no ball etc.

    I've no doubt that Cricket is a proper sport, but there is definitely a subjective element in many decisions.

    Even in the 100m the two fastest runners can sometimes be so evenly matched that there is a subjective element to who crossed the line first - hence a photo finish. But the judgement to be made is still a categorical one, one runner or the other was first, the catch was taken before the ball hit the ground, no part of the heel was behind the line, etc.

    This is very different to deciding whether one skater executed the double-twist in a more pleasing way than another, or had a better sequence of moves, etc. Those are judgements where two performances can often be reasonably judged differently - which is why often a panel of judges is used, rather than a singular judge - and so there is not necessarily a truth as to which performance was best. While, with a catch, though it might be hard to say with certainty whether it was grassed or not, we know that it either was, or wasn't, if only we could observe it accurately.
    And LBW? And no-balls?

    Some bowlers have distinctly dodgy actions - Muralitharan for example - and deciding whether they are legal is a highly subjective matter.
    I suppose a question here is whether subjective judgements are part of the discipline, and whether these are capable of challenge/verification, or if the entire outcome is solely a subjective

    I find the lind a bit blurry. I think diving qualifies, as though I struggle to know why one routine is a precise level more highly rated than another I can usually at least see it is challenging and can tell if it was well executed to some degree, but others would dispute that one. Gymnastics routines are judged subjectively but I'd feel excluding what is such impressive physical displays to feel a bit off. Horse Dancing may well be technically difficult to do, but I'd cut.
    Yes it's a question of degree, and a continuum I would suggest. Foot races would be at one end, and syncronised swimming at the other (preferably off it, imo.)

    Any subjectivity in the judging is a downer, but altheticism and tradition are positives. This helps gymnastics, and 'Horse Dancing' which I believe was one of the original sports in the ancient Greek Olympiads.
    Dressage is based on cavalry drills. More horse marching rather than dancing.

    A rarity too in that men and women compete in the same contest.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Pulpstar said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Do you consider boxing a sport ?
    That's an interesting and complex one.

    The further back in history you go the less subjectivity there was in deciding who won. Time was when you just kept going until the opponent was senseless, if not actually dead.

    Judges giving decisions 'on points' isBy a relatively modern devlopment.
    I think in the pankration the victor actually lost if the loser died before the award ceremony. Mind you I am technically an ancient historian but I got that from a Mary Renault novel
  • glw said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Indeed. We might just as well have ballroom dancing in the Olympics.
    Breakdancing is being trialed in 2024.
    In spite of my comments about cricket, I don't subscribe to the idea that the Olympics has to only be about hard and fast yes and no decision sports. It is worth remembering that artistic endeavour was included in the Olympic Games from 1912 to 1948. There were competitions in painting, sculpture, literature, architecture and music.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,600

    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    She’s a figure skater, not a dancer like Torvill and Dean were.

    I get the sense that judges in the Olympics are honest.

    Boxing judges on the other hand...
    The rules for figure skating are very precise and very demanding - it's not just judges saying "gosh, that looked nice" like you and me. I'm not a regular fan - just watched this as Heathener was recommending it - but I remember my mother was and she could reel off all the specific performances needed.

    I guess that gymanstics and dressage are comparable - can't remember if dressage is an Olympcic sport, but fans do get excited about gymnastics. I think that it's fine to have a variety of types of physical brilliance at the Olympics, not just track and field. Something for (almost) everybody.
    Dressage (aka horse-dancing) is definitely in the Olympics...

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/27/charlotte-dujardin-wins-record-fifth-olympic-medal-in-dressage
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,326
    Surely people aren't suggesting that Strictly Come Dancing isn't a sport?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857

    Pulpstar said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Do you consider boxing a sport ?
    That's an interesting and complex one.

    The further back in history you go the less subjectivity there was in deciding who won. Time was when you just kept going until the opponent was senseless, if not actually dead.

    Judges giving decisions 'on points' is a relatively modern devlopment.
    I've heard it said that there is some interesting (from the MMA types) in bringing a form of Pankration back to the Olympics...
  • Heathener said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Been watching the team figure skating.

    Oh my oh my Kamila Valieva is just astonishing. If you get a chance, do watch her performance today. At 15 she's the second youngest competitor at Beijing and the youngest figure skater but she has such presence on the ice and, as Robin Cousins said, such a believable honest performance. It's breathtaking to watch.

    If you need a filip and escape from the arguing and a reaffirmation about human creativity ... watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135

    Sadly not a real sport. If you need judges to tell you who won, it doesn’t count.
    The Olympic motto is “Faster, Higher, Stronger”, not “Impress The Judges”.
    Also slightly harder to rig things if someone, say, crosses a line first...
    Formula 1 had a pretty good go at it, a couple of months back.

    But yes, sporting results should be decided with a stopwatch or a tape measure.
    You really are being an utter dick

    So ... erm cricket?

    Figure skating has a huge technical merit component.

    But you know what ... I can't be bothered to sit here in a pointless argument with an old bit of gammon who knows nothing about culture and aesthetic beauty, creativity and human endeavour, sport and achievement.

    Or indeed very much about anything in the world beyond their computer screen.

    It really is quite bizarre how some old gammons just sit on here for a fight. Get a life.
    There are lines all over the place in cricket - the boundary, the popping crease, three great big sticks of wood stuck into the ground. It's all lines, so that it's all categorical judgements rather than qualitative ones.
    LBW?
    Is a decision made based on lines again. And these days because it is difficult to do with just the naked eye at the highest level it is backed up by technology. There is no decision based on artistic merit.
    Gymnastics would have to go too of course.
    As I just said I don't agree with those who think that there should be no artistic element in sports. I was just correcting Sunil on his profound ignorance and lack of appreciation for the greatest sport on Earth. :)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,600

    glw said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Indeed. We might just as well have ballroom dancing in the Olympics.
    Breakdancing is being trialed in 2024.
    In spite of my comments about cricket, I don't subscribe to the idea that the Olympics has to only be about hard and fast yes and no decision sports. It is worth remembering that artistic endeavour was included in the Olympic Games from 1912 to 1948. There were competitions in painting, sculpture, literature, architecture and music.
    Mrs P. is currently watching The Great Pottery Throw Down, which as we all know is an Olympic sport for 2024.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,833

    Farooq said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    The Sunday Times
    @thesundaytimes
    NEW: Carrie Johnson has accused “bitter ex-officials” of trying to discredit her with explosive claims that her meddling in government has contributed to the chaos engulfing her husband’s premiership

    https://twitter.com/thesundaytimes/status/1490358250902016010

    Her accusation that bitter ex-officials are trying to discredit her can be true without making their claims untrue, though one would hope there is more than rumour or hearsay to substantiate it.
    Quite.

    I think the Sunday times said (but can't find it) that they had THREE sources saying Carrie has now decided enough is enough and wants to throw in the towel. What with that and pressure on MPs to get letters in before the 10 day recess starting Thursday I expect next week to be interesting
    Sorry, but before I get my hopes up I'll remind you that people have been saying "the next few days!" for many weeks.
    That is a pretty exciting rumour though. If Carrie has decided, that's it. Dignified resignation imminent. No point in waiting till he gets fined or Cummings reveals more scandals.
    Surely if Carrie has decided she has had enough, she leaves Boris.

    He's not going to quit - some poor schmuck will feel sorry for him (they may even get their violin out), so he won't be alone for long.
    Nadine would take him in.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,443
    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    geoffw said:

    Good explanation of Scotland's currency options by an expert (Ronnie MacDonald): What would the currency options be for an independent Scotland?
    https://www.economicsobservatory.com/what-would-the-currency-options-be-for-an-independent-scotland

    it concludes:

    For a newly independent Scotland with a balance of payments deficit and fiscal deficit, the initial currency depreciation could be steep, with knock-on implications for the value of assets and liabilities denominated in sterling. Issues of redenomination and transactions costs would loom large.

    But this currency thistle of redenomination has to be grasped at some point on the journey to Scottish independence. The message of this article is that if Scotland is to become independent, the sooner this is addressed, the better given the way that capital markets operate in a globalised economy.

    That’s a good piece. Also:

    As other countries’ experiences demonstrate, the only sustainable way to preserve the fixed exchange rate relationship would be to run a fiscal surplus (see Tetlow and Soter, 2021). But this would require a significant programme of fiscal consolidation from Scotland’s likely initial starting position (with knock-on implications for policy choices post-independence).

    In practice, the only way the currency issue gets resolved without a large depreciation, is a peg to the Euro on Day 1, with the ECB standing behind that peg.
    An independent currency pegged to another which 'stands behind it' is not an independent currency.

    Indeed not, but the last thing a newly-independent Scotland would want is a floating independent currency. Even the suggestion of it would lead to capital flight, and on launch day it would be smashed to bits.
    if you are pegged to the Euro, and the ECB stands behind it (guarantees its equivalent value) then you are in the Euro for all practical purposes.

    Which means

    (a) The Euro is the only option +EU is the only option. No other currency is a candidate and the pound is obviously out

    which also means

    (b) Hard border at Gretna and Berwick for reasons of SM, FOM, currency, smuggling etc.

    From my bit of England, from which Scotland can be clearly seen, this is sub optimal. And maybe not only me.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,600
    IanB2 said:

    Farooq said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    The Sunday Times
    @thesundaytimes
    NEW: Carrie Johnson has accused “bitter ex-officials” of trying to discredit her with explosive claims that her meddling in government has contributed to the chaos engulfing her husband’s premiership

    https://twitter.com/thesundaytimes/status/1490358250902016010

    Her accusation that bitter ex-officials are trying to discredit her can be true without making their claims untrue, though one would hope there is more than rumour or hearsay to substantiate it.
    Quite.

    I think the Sunday times said (but can't find it) that they had THREE sources saying Carrie has now decided enough is enough and wants to throw in the towel. What with that and pressure on MPs to get letters in before the 10 day recess starting Thursday I expect next week to be interesting
    Sorry, but before I get my hopes up I'll remind you that people have been saying "the next few days!" for many weeks.
    That is a pretty exciting rumour though. If Carrie has decided, that's it. Dignified resignation imminent. No point in waiting till he gets fined or Cummings reveals more scandals.
    Surely if Carrie has decided she has had enough, she leaves Boris.

    He's not going to quit - some poor schmuck will feel sorry for him (they may even get their violin out), so he won't be alone for long.
    Nadine would take him in.
    If you have been affected by the issues raised by that post...
  • glw said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Indeed. We might just as well have ballroom dancing in the Olympics.
    Breakdancing is being trialed in 2024.
    Well yes but I think that once you let syncronised swimming in you opened the door to all manner of trash-sport, so it's hard to argue against it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,503
    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    geoffw said:

    Good explanation of Scotland's currency options by an expert (Ronnie MacDonald): What would the currency options be for an independent Scotland?
    https://www.economicsobservatory.com/what-would-the-currency-options-be-for-an-independent-scotland

    it concludes:

    For a newly independent Scotland with a balance of payments deficit and fiscal deficit, the initial currency depreciation could be steep, with knock-on implications for the value of assets and liabilities denominated in sterling. Issues of redenomination and transactions costs would loom large.

    But this currency thistle of redenomination has to be grasped at some point on the journey to Scottish independence. The message of this article is that if Scotland is to become independent, the sooner this is addressed, the better given the way that capital markets operate in a globalised economy.

    That’s a good piece. Also:

    As other countries’ experiences demonstrate, the only sustainable way to preserve the fixed exchange rate relationship would be to run a fiscal surplus (see Tetlow and Soter, 2021). But this would require a significant programme of fiscal consolidation from Scotland’s likely initial starting position (with knock-on implications for policy choices post-independence).

    In practice, the only way the currency issue gets resolved without a large depreciation, is a peg to the Euro on Day 1, with the ECB standing behind that peg.
    An independent currency pegged to another which 'stands behind it' is not an independent currency.

    Indeed not, but the last thing a newly-independent Scotland would want is a floating independent currency. Even the suggestion of it would lead to capital flight, and on launch day it would be smashed to bits.
    if you are pegged to the Euro, and the ECB stands behind it (guarantees its equivalent value) then you are in the Euro for all practical purposes.

    Which means

    (a) The Euro is the only option +EU is the only option. No other currency is a candidate and the pound is obviously out

    which also means

    (b) Hard border at Gretna and Berwick for reasons of SM, FOM, currency, smuggling etc.

    From my bit of England, from which Scotland can be clearly seen, this is sub optimal. And maybe not only me.

    Ireland is in the Ero, yet we insist there be no hard border. Why would Scotland be different?

    Scotland in the Euro seems quite viable to me.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705

    glw said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Indeed. We might just as well have ballroom dancing in the Olympics.
    Breakdancing is being trialed in 2024.
    In spite of my comments about cricket, I don't subscribe to the idea that the Olympics has to only be about hard and fast yes and no decision sports. It is worth remembering that artistic endeavour was included in the Olympic Games from 1912 to 1948. There were competitions in painting, sculpture, literature, architecture and music.
    Mrs P. is currently watching The Great Pottery Throw Down, which as we all know is an Olympic sport for 2024.
    I'm waiting for the horseback on ice pottery throwdown version.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,270

    Surely people aren't suggesting that Strictly Come Dancing isn't a sport?

    Cricket and Rugby BBC commentating legend Peter West used to commentate on "Come Dancing" so that's good enough for me.
  • Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    geoffw said:

    Good explanation of Scotland's currency options by an expert (Ronnie MacDonald): What would the currency options be for an independent Scotland?
    https://www.economicsobservatory.com/what-would-the-currency-options-be-for-an-independent-scotland

    it concludes:

    For a newly independent Scotland with a balance of payments deficit and fiscal deficit, the initial currency depreciation could be steep, with knock-on implications for the value of assets and liabilities denominated in sterling. Issues of redenomination and transactions costs would loom large.

    But this currency thistle of redenomination has to be grasped at some point on the journey to Scottish independence. The message of this article is that if Scotland is to become independent, the sooner this is addressed, the better given the way that capital markets operate in a globalised economy.

    That’s a good piece. Also:

    As other countries’ experiences demonstrate, the only sustainable way to preserve the fixed exchange rate relationship would be to run a fiscal surplus (see Tetlow and Soter, 2021). But this would require a significant programme of fiscal consolidation from Scotland’s likely initial starting position (with knock-on implications for policy choices post-independence).

    In practice, the only way the currency issue gets resolved without a large depreciation, is a peg to the Euro on Day 1, with the ECB standing behind that peg.
    An independent currency pegged to another which 'stands behind it' is not an independent currency.

    Indeed not, but the last thing a newly-independent Scotland would want is a floating independent currency. Even the suggestion of it would lead to capital flight, and on launch day it would be smashed to bits.
    if you are pegged to the Euro, and the ECB stands behind it (guarantees its equivalent value) then you are in the Euro for all practical purposes.

    Which means

    (a) The Euro is the only option +EU is the only option. No other currency is a candidate and the pound is obviously out

    which also means

    (b) Hard border at Gretna and Berwick for reasons of SM, FOM, currency, smuggling etc.

    From my bit of England, from which Scotland can be clearly seen, this is sub optimal. And maybe not only me.

    Ireland is in the Ero, yet we insist there be no hard border. Why would Scotland be different?

    Scotland in the Euro seems quite viable to me.
    Actually the EU do insist there is a hard border. They just insist it is down the Irish Sea. Not an option when it comes to Scotland.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,143

    Surely people aren't suggesting that Strictly Come Dancing isn't a sport?

    Cricket and Rugby BBC commentating legend Peter West used to commentate on "Come Dancing" so that's good enough for me.
    And the late Tony Gubba did dancing on ice (as does Sam Matterface, but he isn’t in Gubba’s class as a commentator).
  • Pulpstar said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Do you consider boxing a sport ?
    That's an interesting and complex one.

    The further back in history you go the less subjectivity there was in deciding who won. Time was when you just kept going until the opponent was senseless, if not actually dead.

    Judges giving decisions 'on points' is a relatively modern devlopment.
    I've heard it said that there is some interesting (from the MMA types) in bringing a form of Pankration back to the Olympics...
    Not an expert on this but I think the Pankration was usually won on a walkover because everybody knew who the toughest guy was and nobody was prepared to risk their life trying to question it.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,688
    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    geoffw said:

    Good explanation of Scotland's currency options by an expert (Ronnie MacDonald): What would the currency options be for an independent Scotland?
    https://www.economicsobservatory.com/what-would-the-currency-options-be-for-an-independent-scotland

    it concludes:

    For a newly independent Scotland with a balance of payments deficit and fiscal deficit, the initial currency depreciation could be steep, with knock-on implications for the value of assets and liabilities denominated in sterling. Issues of redenomination and transactions costs would loom large.

    But this currency thistle of redenomination has to be grasped at some point on the journey to Scottish independence. The message of this article is that if Scotland is to become independent, the sooner this is addressed, the better given the way that capital markets operate in a globalised economy.

    That’s a good piece. Also:

    As other countries’ experiences demonstrate, the only sustainable way to preserve the fixed exchange rate relationship would be to run a fiscal surplus (see Tetlow and Soter, 2021). But this would require a significant programme of fiscal consolidation from Scotland’s likely initial starting position (with knock-on implications for policy choices post-independence).

    In practice, the only way the currency issue gets resolved without a large depreciation, is a peg to the Euro on Day 1, with the ECB standing behind that peg.
    An independent currency pegged to another which 'stands behind it' is not an independent currency.

    Indeed not, but the last thing a newly-independent Scotland would want is a floating independent currency. Even the suggestion of it would lead to capital flight, and on launch day it would be smashed to bits.
    if you are pegged to the Euro, and the ECB stands behind it (guarantees its equivalent value) then you are in the Euro for all practical purposes.

    Which means

    (a) The Euro is the only option +EU is the only option. No other currency is a candidate and the pound is obviously out

    which also means

    (b) Hard border at Gretna and Berwick for reasons of SM, FOM, currency, smuggling etc.

    From my bit of England, from which Scotland can be clearly seen, this is sub optimal. And maybe not only me.

    Ireland is in the Ero, yet we insist there be no hard border. Why would Scotland be different?

    Scotland in the Euro seems quite viable to me.
    Only if rUK has a free trade agreement with the EU.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,456
    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    geoffw said:

    Good explanation of Scotland's currency options by an expert (Ronnie MacDonald): What would the currency options be for an independent Scotland?
    https://www.economicsobservatory.com/what-would-the-currency-options-be-for-an-independent-scotland

    it concludes:

    For a newly independent Scotland with a balance of payments deficit and fiscal deficit, the initial currency depreciation could be steep, with knock-on implications for the value of assets and liabilities denominated in sterling. Issues of redenomination and transactions costs would loom large.

    But this currency thistle of redenomination has to be grasped at some point on the journey to Scottish independence. The message of this article is that if Scotland is to become independent, the sooner this is addressed, the better given the way that capital markets operate in a globalised economy.

    That’s a good piece. Also:

    As other countries’ experiences demonstrate, the only sustainable way to preserve the fixed exchange rate relationship would be to run a fiscal surplus (see Tetlow and Soter, 2021). But this would require a significant programme of fiscal consolidation from Scotland’s likely initial starting position (with knock-on implications for policy choices post-independence).

    In practice, the only way the currency issue gets resolved without a large depreciation, is a peg to the Euro on Day 1, with the ECB standing behind that peg.
    An independent currency pegged to another which 'stands behind it' is not an independent currency.

    Indeed not, but the last thing a newly-independent Scotland would want is a floating independent currency. Even the suggestion of it would lead to capital flight, and on launch day it would be smashed to bits.
    if you are pegged to the Euro, and the ECB stands behind it (guarantees its equivalent value) then you are in the Euro for all practical purposes.

    Which means

    (a) The Euro is the only option +EU is the only option. No other currency is a candidate and the pound is obviously out

    which also means

    (b) Hard border at Gretna and Berwick for reasons of SM, FOM, currency, smuggling etc.

    From my bit of England, from which Scotland can be clearly seen, this is sub optimal. And maybe not only me.

    Yes, Scotland joining the EU leaves a very big question over what the border looks like. As we have seen, the EU have a very strict view of what the external border of their customs union looks like.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,503

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    geoffw said:

    Good explanation of Scotland's currency options by an expert (Ronnie MacDonald): What would the currency options be for an independent Scotland?
    https://www.economicsobservatory.com/what-would-the-currency-options-be-for-an-independent-scotland

    it concludes:

    For a newly independent Scotland with a balance of payments deficit and fiscal deficit, the initial currency depreciation could be steep, with knock-on implications for the value of assets and liabilities denominated in sterling. Issues of redenomination and transactions costs would loom large.

    But this currency thistle of redenomination has to be grasped at some point on the journey to Scottish independence. The message of this article is that if Scotland is to become independent, the sooner this is addressed, the better given the way that capital markets operate in a globalised economy.

    That’s a good piece. Also:

    As other countries’ experiences demonstrate, the only sustainable way to preserve the fixed exchange rate relationship would be to run a fiscal surplus (see Tetlow and Soter, 2021). But this would require a significant programme of fiscal consolidation from Scotland’s likely initial starting position (with knock-on implications for policy choices post-independence).

    In practice, the only way the currency issue gets resolved without a large depreciation, is a peg to the Euro on Day 1, with the ECB standing behind that peg.
    An independent currency pegged to another which 'stands behind it' is not an independent currency.

    Indeed not, but the last thing a newly-independent Scotland would want is a floating independent currency. Even the suggestion of it would lead to capital flight, and on launch day it would be smashed to bits.
    if you are pegged to the Euro, and the ECB stands behind it (guarantees its equivalent value) then you are in the Euro for all practical purposes.

    Which means

    (a) The Euro is the only option +EU is the only option. No other currency is a candidate and the pound is obviously out

    which also means

    (b) Hard border at Gretna and Berwick for reasons of SM, FOM, currency, smuggling etc.

    From my bit of England, from which Scotland can be clearly seen, this is sub optimal. And maybe not only me.

    Ireland is in the Ero, yet we insist there be no hard border. Why would Scotland be different?

    Scotland in the Euro seems quite viable to me.
    Actually the EU do insist there is a hard border. They just insist it is down the Irish Sea. Not an option when it comes to Scotland.
    Yes but the UK insists there needs to be neither, and that there are other ways.

    I actually agree with you, it is just government policy to ignore it.
  • Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    Interesting. Are we being racist towards her because she is Russian, or because she is Tatar? And you choose to use a racist term towards white people.

    Maybe some people just don't get figure skating, just as some people don't get cricket.

    (Personally I think it is a fine performance, and she is a great athlete. You have to be fit to do that sort of thing)
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,287
    tlg86 said:

    Surely people aren't suggesting that Strictly Come Dancing isn't a sport?

    Cricket and Rugby BBC commentating legend Peter West used to commentate on "Come Dancing" so that's good enough for me.
    And the late Tony Gubba did dancing on ice (as does Sam Matterface, but he isn’t in Gubba’s class as a commentator).
    Sams finest moment was an accidental Partridge. https://soundcloud.com/nic-english/sam-matterface-goes-full-alan-partridge
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Do you consider boxing a sport ?
    That's an interesting and complex one.

    The further back in history you go the less subjectivity there was in deciding who won. Time was when you just kept going until the opponent was senseless, if not actually dead.

    Judges giving decisions 'on points' isBy a relatively modern devlopment.
    I think in the pankration the victor actually lost if the loser died before the award ceremony. Mind you I am technically an ancient historian but I got that from a Mary Renault novel
    No, I think you have that slightly the wrong way round. The winner was sometimes so badly injured that he died afetr the event and had to be given his medal posthumously.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861
    Just seen this on BBC News. "Queen backs Camilla to be Queen Consort." Looks a good bet to me. I wonder what odds she got? Mind you. Insider trading?
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,070
    malcolmg said:

    Cicero said:

    malcolmg said:

    Cicero said:

    malcolmg said:

    Aslan said:

    Scottish deficit: 22% of GDP
    UK deficit: 14% of GDP

    Nobody knows the real numbers, certainly not the crooks running teh show. They use fag packets to work it out. Anyone thinking otherwise is not right in the head.
    Well, you can work out quite a lot from OECD, IMF and World Bank numbers and they are pretty consistent. So, while you might not like the numbers, the reality is that Scotland would need to go through at least 2 decades of restructuring which would be difficult and painful and you can´t just wish that away. You may think it is worth the pain and that is fair enough, but too many Nats just pretend that its unicorns and rainbows all the way from the day we go it alone, and the "RUK will pay our pensions at no cost to the Scottish government" is just the latest example of wildly wishful thinking. I´d respect the Nat position a lot more if they were honest: "it will be hard, but worth it" rather than "we are so fantastic that it will be easy and the gold rolls in from day one", which is nonsense on stilts and as dishonest as the Tories over Brexit.
    The wishful thinking on pensions here is all by unionists, no Scottish person has said anything of the sort.I am happy to go with the fact that all small countries are doing very well with far less resources than Scotland and as you say given we have been ripped off for so long in UK , it will take a while to build up infrastructure, however again I look at all th eeastern European countries who started from scratch not so long ago and nearly all have better livin standards than the UK, so no real issue there either.
    You lot should be more concerned how rump UK will survive and be able to pay its debts once all the services are gone abroad and there is little left other than flipping burgers or civil service/council jobs.
    There you go again... It is not the case that any of the CEE states has yet acheived economic numbers anywhere close to the UK, and I have been involved in this region for over 40 years in one way or another. Slovenia, the wealthiest CEE economy per capita had in 2020 a GDP/capita of USD 25,459 and the UK USD 40, 428. Bulgaria´s 2020 GDP/capita was only USD 10,006. These by the way are pretty good numbers and reflect nearly 3 decades of economic restructuring and growth.

    So nice try, but provably untrue. Scotland and the rest of the UK may have significant structural issues, but the UK economy remains large, diverse and, depending on your source, is between the fifth and seventh largest economy in the world. Again I´d have a bit more respect for the Nat position if they did not keep spouting such mince. Bad tempered bollocks is not a credible economic or political argument. Sure Scotland "could" be an independent country, but the price is high and in my view is not worth it. If, instead of dismissing the facts, you admitted them and told us how you were going to deal with them then maybe you could make a case, but the truth is that pretending these serious problems don´t exist destroys the credibility of any other arguement you make.
    I am not sure who these "Nats" you speak of , however on CEE you need to get a grip, what does GDP have to do with it , why did you omit standard of living. One little example, in Bulgaria you can have 3 years maternity leave, full pay yaer 1 , minimum wage year 2 , self funded year 3. Poor indeed compared to our wonderful UK deal. Your other mince re how I am going to deal with tehm, hint , I am not and never will be in teh Government running Scotland. The government running Scotland after independence will publish their plans which you will be able to read. Not wild swivelled eyed ramblings of half witted numpties who think they are experts on the world, but teh real peole enacting it.
    OK "Nats" are "the parties that advocate Scottish independence", and while I appreciate that you left the SNP it is still a reasonable short hand.

    Your point about "living standards" still does not hold water, since there is an economic number that adjusts national income based on lower levels of costs overall in less developed economies, GDP at "purchasing power parity" (PPP), and it is true that the CEE states are a bit closer to the UK GDP/capita based on PPP, but still not that much closer. Economists argue over how much social welfare legislation can be said to improve economic well being, but with regards to Bulgaria, its a moot point because the country still has a very low GDP/capita overall, so even if such things did improve "living standards" its nowhere near enough to bring the Bulgarian GDP/capita anywhere close to the UK. On a PPP basis the Bulgarian GDP/capita is c USD 17,200 versus the UK´s USD 32,077.

    And, just to make a further point, I have been an analyst and economic advisor to several governments in the region over the years and do in fact speak several of the local languages, so I am not sure what kind of further grip you are looking for concerning CEE. I have worked very closely with "real people" in developing polcies that have generally worked. Obviously I therefore take a personal interest in the policy documents put out so far in Scotland and I have to say that they consistently fail to address critical economic issues. The reality is that Scottish independence comes at a significant economic price, and if basic questions of policy: currency management, deficit financing and the structure of economic growth are not addressed then it can hardly be a surprise that any programme for the economy of an independent Scotland is greeted with scepticism. Its not good enough to say "you´ll see it when we enact it", the Scottish voters deserve to see, understand and engage with a separatist economic programme. You are right that the SNP programme put forward in the white paper at the referendum was wooly wish fulfillment. As of now, I see no eveidence that this has moved on towards a responsible and coherrent economic programme. The fact that the SNP in particular try and avoid discussing, for example, the future of the financial sector is simply stupid.

    So there we are, unless you can tell us what the menu with prices offers in your economic programme, then we are perfectly entitled to dismiss it as either mistaken or dishonest. As I keep saying, if the Nats were prepared to come clean and say that separation would be difficult for quite some time but that it would be worth it then at least you´d get respect, but deriding people who have genuine and legitimate concerns about the economic impact of breaking up the UK eocnomy just makes the whole project look like a racket.
  • tlg86 said:

    Surely people aren't suggesting that Strictly Come Dancing isn't a sport?

    Cricket and Rugby BBC commentating legend Peter West used to commentate on "Come Dancing" so that's good enough for me.
    And the late Tony Gubba did dancing on ice (as does Sam Matterface, but he isn’t in Gubba’s class as a commentator).
    Jonathan Pearce did Robot Wars!!
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,443

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    geoffw said:

    Good explanation of Scotland's currency options by an expert (Ronnie MacDonald): What would the currency options be for an independent Scotland?
    https://www.economicsobservatory.com/what-would-the-currency-options-be-for-an-independent-scotland

    it concludes:

    For a newly independent Scotland with a balance of payments deficit and fiscal deficit, the initial currency depreciation could be steep, with knock-on implications for the value of assets and liabilities denominated in sterling. Issues of redenomination and transactions costs would loom large.

    But this currency thistle of redenomination has to be grasped at some point on the journey to Scottish independence. The message of this article is that if Scotland is to become independent, the sooner this is addressed, the better given the way that capital markets operate in a globalised economy.

    That’s a good piece. Also:

    As other countries’ experiences demonstrate, the only sustainable way to preserve the fixed exchange rate relationship would be to run a fiscal surplus (see Tetlow and Soter, 2021). But this would require a significant programme of fiscal consolidation from Scotland’s likely initial starting position (with knock-on implications for policy choices post-independence).

    In practice, the only way the currency issue gets resolved without a large depreciation, is a peg to the Euro on Day 1, with the ECB standing behind that peg.
    An independent currency pegged to another which 'stands behind it' is not an independent currency.

    Indeed not, but the last thing a newly-independent Scotland would want is a floating independent currency. Even the suggestion of it would lead to capital flight, and on launch day it would be smashed to bits.
    if you are pegged to the Euro, and the ECB stands behind it (guarantees its equivalent value) then you are in the Euro for all practical purposes.

    Which means

    (a) The Euro is the only option +EU is the only option. No other currency is a candidate and the pound is obviously out

    which also means

    (b) Hard border at Gretna and Berwick for reasons of SM, FOM, currency, smuggling etc.

    From my bit of England, from which Scotland can be clearly seen, this is sub optimal. And maybe not only me.

    Ireland is in the Ero, yet we insist there be no hard border. Why would Scotland be different?

    Scotland in the Euro seems quite viable to me.
    Actually the EU do insist there is a hard border. They just insist it is down the Irish Sea. Not an option when it comes to Scotland.
    Agree. There is a further hidden point that the current EU/UK anomaly about the island of Ireland can be tolerated because everyone knows that in a secularising world where RoI is not a theocracy and most NI people are sane despite their leaders eventual unification of the single island is inevitable and Brexit is a spur to this outbreak of sanity. Whereas the splitting of Britain would cause a permanent anomaly with regard to both the island of Britain (look at a map) and EU/UK if Scotland was daft enough to go both independent and EU.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,422
    Heathener said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Been watching the team figure skating.

    Oh my oh my Kamila Valieva is just astonishing. If you get a chance, do watch her performance today. At 15 she's the second youngest competitor at Beijing and the youngest figure skater but she has such presence on the ice and, as Robin Cousins said, such a believable honest performance. It's breathtaking to watch.

    If you need a filip and escape from the arguing and a reaffirmation about human creativity ... watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135

    Sadly not a real sport. If you need judges to tell you who won, it doesn’t count.
    The Olympic motto is “Faster, Higher, Stronger”, not “Impress The Judges”.
    Also slightly harder to rig things if someone, say, crosses a line first...
    Formula 1 had a pretty good go at it, a couple of months back.

    But yes, sporting results should be decided with a stopwatch or a tape measure.
    You really are being an utter dick

    So ... erm cricket?

    Figure skating has a huge technical merit component.

    But you know what ... I can't be bothered to sit here in a pointless argument with an old bit of gammon who knows nothing about culture and aesthetic beauty, creativity and human endeavour, sport and achievement.

    Or indeed very much about anything in the world beyond their computer screen.

    It really is quite bizarre how some old gammons just sit on here for a fight. Get a life.
    Are you a sad old gammon yourself?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,443

    IshmaelZ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Do you consider boxing a sport ?
    That's an interesting and complex one.

    The further back in history you go the less subjectivity there was in deciding who won. Time was when you just kept going until the opponent was senseless, if not actually dead.

    Judges giving decisions 'on points' isBy a relatively modern devlopment.
    I think in the pankration the victor actually lost if the loser died before the award ceremony. Mind you I am technically an ancient historian but I got that from a Mary Renault novel
    No, I think you have that slightly the wrong way round. The winner was sometimes so badly injured that he died afetr the event and had to be given his medal posthumously.
    Much less posh than Mary Renault but the ancient Greek tec novels of Gary Corby, pretty bad books but very readable, cover the pankration issue. Sacred Games is the one I think. Good mindless fun.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,979
    edited February 2022

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    just as some people don't get cricket.

    Someday science will find a cure for this malady. Most current cures have a side effect of making people find political minutiae more interesting, though that also occurs naturally.

    #nevergiveup
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,907
    Funny how all the British Nationalists on here assume that the Scots currency will plummet but the £Britnat will be ok. It’s as if you all believe the Britnat propaganda about you being asset rich, whereas you are an underresourced, overpopulated rump of a disappeared empire. Fortunately, IndyScot will be able to bail you out.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Do you consider boxing a sport ?
    That's an interesting and complex one.

    The further back in history you go the less subjectivity there was in deciding who won. Time was when you just kept going until the opponent was senseless, if not actually dead.

    Judges giving decisions 'on points' isBy a relatively modern devlopment.
    I think in the pankration the victor actually lost if the loser died before the award ceremony. Mind you I am technically an ancient historian but I got that from a Mary Renault novel
    No, I think you have that slightly the wrong way round. The winner was sometimes so badly injured that he died afetr the event and had to be given his medal posthumously.
    Much less posh than Mary Renault but the ancient Greek tec novels of Gary Corby, pretty bad books but very readable, cover the pankration issue. Sacred Games is the one I think. Good mindless fun.

    wiki has this

    In an odd turn of events, a pankration fighter named Arrhichion (Ἀρριχίων) of Phigalia won the pankration competition at the Olympic Games despite being dead. His opponent had locked him in a chokehold and Arrhichion, desperate to loosen it, broke his opponent's toe (some records say his ankle). The opponent nearly passed out from pain and submitted. As the referee raised Arrhichion's hand, it was discovered that he had died from the chokehold. His body was crowned with the olive wreath and returned to Phigaleia as a hero.[citation needed]

    [citation needed] indeed
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,737
    Why is the use of the word gammon as a pejorative considered acceptable? Normally by the very same people who would keel over in shock at the hint of racial based language being used in any other instance?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,600
    Breaking:

    "Queen backs Carrie to be PM Consort"

    ...or maybe I am getting a bit muddled.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    moonshine said:

    Why is the use of the word gammon as a pejorative considered acceptable? Normally by the very same people who would keel over in shock at the hint of racial based language being used in any other instance?

    Because it's against white people and the people you are talking about are fine with racism against white people. It is why no Labour MP calls for the ousting of Diane Abbott.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,833

    glw said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Indeed. We might just as well have ballroom dancing in the Olympics.
    Breakdancing is being trialed in 2024.
    Well yes but I think that once you let syncronised swimming in you opened the door to all manner of trash-sport, so it's hard to argue against it.
    Talking of which, can you believe they are still trying to get cricket into the summer games?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,247

    Funny how all the British Nationalists on here assume that the Scots currency will plummet but the £Britnat will be ok. It’s as if you all believe the Britnat propaganda about you being asset rich, whereas you are an underresourced, overpopulated rump of a disappeared empire. Fortunately, IndyScot will be able to bail you out.

    Popualtion of Scotland is 8% of that of the UK, economy just 7% of it.

    I don't think it's England would have the 'underresourced, overpopulated rump' problem...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Do you consider boxing a sport ?
    That's an interesting and complex one.

    The further back in history you go the less subjectivity there was in deciding who won. Time was when you just kept going until the opponent was senseless, if not actually dead.

    Judges giving decisions 'on points' isBy a relatively modern devlopment.
    I think in the pankration the victor actually lost if the loser died before the award ceremony. Mind you I am technically an ancient historian but I got that from a Mary Renault novel
    No, I think you have that slightly the wrong way round. The winner was sometimes so badly injured that he died afetr the event and had to be given his medal posthumously.
    Not what Renault says in Last of the Wine. Don't have the text to hand but an online synopsis which accords with my memory says "Lysis is defeated and almost killed by an opponent who has no grace of form nor, apparently, any honor -- he has allowed himself to be shaped into a man with one purpose only, to win, and his concern for Lysis after their bout is only that if Lysis dies, he will be disqualified as victor." https://www.rambles.net/renault_lastwine56.html
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    Funny how all the British Nationalists on here assume that the Scots currency will plummet but the £Britnat will be ok. It’s as if you all believe the Britnat propaganda about you being asset rich, whereas you are an underresourced, overpopulated rump of a disappeared empire. Fortunately, IndyScot will be able to bail you out.

    It is the Scottish government's own figures that show you with a massive fiscal deficit. But of course Scottish Nats are often equivalent to Trump supporters in finding their own alternative facts.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,280
    IanB2 said:

    glw said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Indeed. We might just as well have ballroom dancing in the Olympics.
    Breakdancing is being trialed in 2024.
    Well yes but I think that once you let syncronised swimming in you opened the door to all manner of trash-sport, so it's hard to argue against it.
    Talking of which, can you believe they are still trying to get cricket into the summer games?
    Are the french not still the reigning Olympic champions?
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Aslan said:

    moonshine said:

    Why is the use of the word gammon as a pejorative considered acceptable? Normally by the very same people who would keel over in shock at the hint of racial based language being used in any other instance?

    Because it's against white people and the people you are talking about are fine with racism against white people. It is why no Labour MP calls for the ousting of Diane Abbott.
    It's even worse than that - they don't even believe that racism against white people is racism.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,892
    moonshine said:

    Why is the use of the word gammon as a pejorative considered acceptable? Normally by the very same people who would keel over in shock at the hint of racial based language being used in any other instance?

    I doesn't even mean much as it seems to be applied to all sorts of people. Mind you "boomer" is the worst for that, rather than just meaning baby boomers is now seems to apply to anyone older than a teenager.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    Maybe we could turn the Olympics debate on its head a bit. What's not in the Winter Games that should or could be? I like the Winter Olympics in a more-fun-less-serious alternative sort of way but in comparison to the Summer equivalent it's lacking a lot of depth in the variety of events involved.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,143

    Maybe we could turn the Olympics debate on its head a bit. What's not in the Winter Games that should or could be? I like the Winter Olympics in a more-fun-less-serious alternative sort of way but in comparison to the Summer equivalent it's lacking a lot of depth in the variety of events involved.

    Snowman building
    Snowball fighting
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,503
    edited February 2022

    Maybe we could turn the Olympics debate on its head a bit. What's not in the Winter Games that should or could be? I like the Winter Olympics in a more-fun-less-serious alternative sort of way but in comparison to the Summer equivalent it's lacking a lot of depth in the variety of events involved.

    Snowshoe races across country.

    Dog sleighs too...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,600
    Aslan said:

    moonshine said:

    Why is the use of the word gammon as a pejorative considered acceptable? Normally by the very same people who would keel over in shock at the hint of racial based language being used in any other instance?

    Because it's against white people and the people you are talking about are fine with racism against white people. It is why no Labour MP calls for the ousting of Diane Abbott.
    1. It's not racism though is it? It's directed at a group of people who choose to think and act in a particular way. The important word here is 'choose'. Comparable to calling someone a white-supremacist, a label no doubt only ever aimed at white people, but who would suggest to call someone a white-supremacist is racist?

    2. You think racism is not called out if it's directed against white people? Check out the Holocaust.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,503
    tlg86 said:

    Maybe we could turn the Olympics debate on its head a bit. What's not in the Winter Games that should or could be? I like the Winter Olympics in a more-fun-less-serious alternative sort of way but in comparison to the Summer equivalent it's lacking a lot of depth in the variety of events involved.

    Snowman building
    Snowball fighting
    Driveway clearing with a snow shovel.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,287
    IanB2 said:

    glw said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, for those of you who aren't sad old lumps of white male gammon, here it is again.

    A quite wonderful piece of technical brilliance and artistic aesthetic merit:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60277135


    p.s. The subtext behind the criticism of the performance is (of course) racism. The sad old gammon Brexiteers have demeaned themselves and this country.

    I’ve not commented on the performance. The word itself is making my point. Ice dancing is just that - dancing. Astonishingly well executed dancing, but dancing none the less, and requiring judges, that may or may not be bent, to determine who won.
    Indeed. We might just as well have ballroom dancing in the Olympics.
    Breakdancing is being trialed in 2024.
    Well yes but I think that once you let syncronised swimming in you opened the door to all manner of trash-sport, so it's hard to argue against it.
    Talking of which, can you believe they are still trying to get cricket into the summer games?

    Yes, it would help develop the sport globally and would mean additional state funding in some nations as an Olympic sport.

    It has featured in the commonwealth games before.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,600
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Maybe we could turn the Olympics debate on its head a bit. What's not in the Winter Games that should or could be? I like the Winter Olympics in a more-fun-less-serious alternative sort of way but in comparison to the Summer equivalent it's lacking a lot of depth in the variety of events involved.

    Snowman building
    Snowball fighting
    Driveway clearing with a snow shovel.
    Point of order: curling is already an olympic sport.
  • Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Maybe we could turn the Olympics debate on its head a bit. What's not in the Winter Games that should or could be? I like the Winter Olympics in a more-fun-less-serious alternative sort of way but in comparison to the Summer equivalent it's lacking a lot of depth in the variety of events involved.

    Snowman building
    Snowball fighting
    Driveway clearing with a snow shovel.
    Dogwalking in the rain.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,688
    Aslan said:

    Funny how all the British Nationalists on here assume that the Scots currency will plummet but the £Britnat will be ok. It’s as if you all believe the Britnat propaganda about you being asset rich, whereas you are an underresourced, overpopulated rump of a disappeared empire. Fortunately, IndyScot will be able to bail you out.

    It is the Scottish government's own figures that show you with a massive fiscal deficit. But of course Scottish Nats are often equivalent to Trump supporters in finding their own alternative facts.
    "But facts are chiels that winna ding, An' downa be disputed"
    Translation: ScotNat facts are beyond criticism.

  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,737
    https://twitter.com/nadinedorries/status/1490410663541452805?s=21

    Chuckle. Nadine Dorries has been sent to Saudi Arabia.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    2. You think racism is not called out if it's directed against white people? Check out the Holocaust.

    W. Goldberg.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,503

    Aslan said:

    moonshine said:

    Why is the use of the word gammon as a pejorative considered acceptable? Normally by the very same people who would keel over in shock at the hint of racial based language being used in any other instance?

    Because it's against white people and the people you are talking about are fine with racism against white people. It is why no Labour MP calls for the ousting of Diane Abbott.
    1. It's not racism though is it? It's directed at a group of people who choose to think and act in a particular way. The important word here is 'choose'. Comparable to calling someone a white-supremacist, a label no doubt only ever aimed at white people, but who would suggest to call someone a white-supremacist is racist?

    2. You think racism is not called out if it's directed against white people? Check out the Holocaust.
    It's not a descriptive word that I use. It is offensive without having any substance in refuting what is said.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,600
    Applicant said:

    2. You think racism is not called out if it's directed against white people? Check out the Holocaust.

    W. Goldberg.
    Proves my point exactly - that's been well and truly called out. Correctly so.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/06/whoopi-goldberg-holocaust-remarks-were-born-of-ignorance-not-racism

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60209527
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,280
    edited February 2022

    Aslan said:

    moonshine said:

    Why is the use of the word gammon as a pejorative considered acceptable? Normally by the very same people who would keel over in shock at the hint of racial based language being used in any other instance?

    Because it's against white people and the people you are talking about are fine with racism against white people. It is why no Labour MP calls for the ousting of Diane Abbott.
    1. It's not racism though is it? It's directed at a group of people who choose to think and act in a particular way. The important word here is 'choose'. Comparable to calling someone a white-supremacist, a label no doubt only ever aimed at white people, but who would suggest to call someone a white-supremacist is racist?

    2. You think racism is not called out if it's directed against white people? Check out the Holocaust.
    But isn’t that the issue with Whooping Goldbergs attitude? She seems to believe that the holocaust wasn’t racist as it was ‘whites’ on ‘whites’.
    And calling any one by a set of characteristics, saying they think and act in a certain way, is the root of racism issues too. If it’s wrong to think that all those of Indian descent think and behave in the same way, then why apply that thinking to a group of people who have different opinions to you?
    Edit typos...
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,287

    Maybe we could turn the Olympics debate on its head a bit. What's not in the Winter Games that should or could be? I like the Winter Olympics in a more-fun-less-serious alternative sort of way but in comparison to the Summer equivalent it's lacking a lot of depth in the variety of events involved.

    Under ice swimming.


    https://youtu.be/x3afBjZnV6c
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