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Johnson gets his worst English approval ratings in the Midlands – politicalbetting.com

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  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792
    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I see on the previous thread that @HYUFD has now switched his support the retention of masking, because he has read that that is the government's plan.

    Is they guy even capable of independent thought?

    No I have always supported masking. It is just a small practical measure to contain the spread of Covid in winter on public transport and crowded shops.

    Further restrictions on the vaccinated in terms of closing pubs, restaurants and large events and nightclubs is what I am opposed to
    So if compulsory masks on trains are scrapped next week, you'll be writing to your MP to complain?
    They can be moved in Spring from compulsory to voluntary
    Why not now? Masking does very little and numbers of positives are declining precipitously: it would appear we are past the peak of hospitalisations too.

    Now, I'm pretty fundamentally against masks for the reasons @pigeon spells out - but I recognise most people have a more conditional approach to them. At what level of which indicator would you support this?

    I think Nick P - who is more up the cautious end of the spectrum - suggested a level of daily positives o around 20,000 at which he'd be happy with this (apologies if I'm misrepresenting you, @NickPalmer ) - what is your level?
    Indeed that's Nick's position (I double checked with him yesterday).

    As it happens, we are now in a situation where Nick is more liberal on restrictions than the current rules – he confirmed yesterday that he's abolish masking in theatres and cinemas right now.
    I think its not a good idea to peg it to a number of positive tests, as this is dependent on other factors than just how much covid is out there. If you had to peg it to something, then hospital admission for covid (not with) would maybe work, or total covid patients. Just doing it for cases make no sense if the idea is to protect the hospitals.
    Well, I agree - I was just trying to coax from HYUFD what metrics he'd use to decide when he would no longer support masking. Nick suggested 20,000 positive tests, but I think largely from a position of 'that sort of level' - I expect he would also have a similar gut feeling about what level of hospitalisations if that metric was thought better.


    Masking is not really to protect hospitals though, that would be another lockdown or mandatory vaxports.

    Masking is just a way to help reduce case spread, as case rates will always be highest in winter
    So would you be keen for masks every winter?
    Or is there a level of prevalence of covid at which you would support demasking?

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Penny Mordaunt has emerged as a dark horse candidate to succeed Boris Johnson, @politicshome is told

    The trade minister is backed by multiple Tories elected in 2019 amid a belief she can unify the party

    An ally says she's "focused on doing her job"...

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/penny-mordaunt-emerges-as-dark-horse-candidate-to-succeed-boris-johnson
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited January 2022
    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    The thing is the BBC have already basically set this structure up with BBC Studios and UKTV....its just they don't like to shout about it, in case somebody might suggest your approach...

    Most people I talk to have no idea that UKTV is 100% owned by the BBC, many don't even have a clue the BBC have any ownership of the likes of Dave.

    And then you have the opposite, some things branded BBC aren't BBC at all. BBC Good Food isn't the BBC.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited January 2022
    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.

    Of an AYCE at the current license fee level.


  • Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    Including funding out of general taxation? Are they strongly opposed to that?
    I'd support funding from general taxation I think - we can't have a system when some pay and some don't and get away with it. If general taxation - the big salaries would have to be capped.
    There's always the risk of greater state interference with funding it from general taxaton, though.
    That is often voiced but need this necessarily be the case?
    Bears, Popes etc.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    I see on the previous thread that @HYUFD has now switched his support the retention of masking, because he has read that that is the government's plan.

    Is they guy even capable of independent thought?

    No I have always supported masking. It is just a small practical measure to contain the spread of Covid in winter on public transport and crowded shops.

    Further restrictions on the vaccinated in terms of closing pubs, restaurants and large events and nightclubs is what I am opposed to
    But less than a week ago you were saying that those opposed to plan B measures would stick with the Conservatives because they have nowhere else to go.
    Now it seems they don't have the Conservatives either.

    Masking is not a small practical measure, it is a) pointless theatre which does little or nothing to stop spread of omicron, and b) economically and societally damaging.

    And no matter what polling on the matter says, I don't believe it is popular or beneficial for the government.
    When given the choice, most people don't mask. If they genuinely supported masking, voluntary masking would be much more prevalent.
    Masking appears to be more effective against Omicron that against Delta.

    How is masking economically and societally damaging? I can see big debates over lockdowns or vaccine passports or compulsory vaccination, but masking produces big benefits at pretty minimal costs.
    Economically: because people don't do stuff when they have to wear masks to do so.
    Societally: because it's pretty dystopian to have everyone walking around hidden by a face mask. It does no good for levels of trust or communication. It's damaging to children. It's bad news for the deaf. It contributes to the climate of fear, which does the country no good.
    I find it bizarre that some people continue to believe that masks are non-damaging and have to have this explained to them. If you support masking as a transmission mitigation, fine. That's arguable. But recognise that it's imposition that has major trade-offs.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I see on the previous thread that @HYUFD has now switched his support the retention of masking, because he has read that that is the government's plan.

    Is they guy even capable of independent thought?

    No I have always supported masking. It is just a small practical measure to contain the spread of Covid in winter on public transport and crowded shops.

    Further restrictions on the vaccinated in terms of closing pubs, restaurants and large events and nightclubs is what I am opposed to
    So if compulsory masks on trains are scrapped next week, you'll be writing to your MP to complain?
    They can be moved in Spring from compulsory to voluntary
    Why not now? Masking does very little and numbers of positives are declining precipitously: it would appear we are past the peak of hospitalisations too.

    Now, I'm pretty fundamentally against masks for the reasons @pigeon spells out - but I recognise most people have a more conditional approach to them. At what level of which indicator would you support this?

    I think Nick P - who is more up the cautious end of the spectrum - suggested a level of daily positives o around 20,000 at which he'd be happy with this (apologies if I'm misrepresenting you, @NickPalmer ) - what is your level?
    Indeed that's Nick's position (I double checked with him yesterday).

    As it happens, we are now in a situation where Nick is more liberal on restrictions than the current rules – he confirmed yesterday that he's abolish masking in theatres and cinemas right now.
    I think its not a good idea to peg it to a number of positive tests, as this is dependent on other factors than just how much covid is out there. If you had to peg it to something, then hospital admission for covid (not with) would maybe work, or total covid patients. Just doing it for cases make no sense if the idea is to protect the hospitals.
    Well, I agree - I was just trying to coax from HYUFD what metrics he'd use to decide when he would no longer support masking. Nick suggested 20,000 positive tests, but I think largely from a position of 'that sort of level' - I expect he would also have a similar gut feeling about what level of hospitalisations if that metric was thought better.


    Masking is not really to protect hospitals though, that would be another lockdown or mandatory vaxports.

    Masking is just a way to help reduce case spread, as case rates will always be highest in winter
    So would you be keen for masks every winter?
    Or is there a level of prevalence of covid at which you would support demasking?

    Yep. Anyone who didn't wear a mask during the winter in years gone by and perhaps even not and continued "as is" when they had a flu previously is a glaring hypocrite in calling for masks now (and forever).
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    edited January 2022
    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19852978.nicola-sturgeon-calls-douglas-ross-enabling-boris-johnson-sky-interview/?ref=ebbn

    Ms Sturgeon being rather unkind to poor Mr Ross:

    '“It’s not just about Boris Johnson the individual,” she said. “It’s about a Conservative Party that enabled and facilitated somebody like Boris Johnson becoming Prime Minister in the first place.

    “It’s not as if these character flaws that people are now seeing very clearly in Boris Johnson weren’t known about before.

    “So yeah, Douglas Ross has now called for his resignation. But Douglas Ross enthusiastically supported Boris Johnson in his attempt to become leader of the Conservative Party and Prime Minister.”

    Back in 2019, during the Tory leadership election, Ross announced he would be voting for Johnson in the second round of the contest. His preference in the first round was Mark Harper, who was eliminated after securing support from just 3.2% of MPs.

    Ross said in a tweet: “Since the first round result I've spoken with many of the candidates and decided, with the breadth of support they have across the party and their vision for the future of our country, today I will @BackBoris."

    He also wrote for the Scotsman setting out how Johnson would "strengthen the Union by delivering Brexit".'

    But it's a good point already made by some on PB as regards the Tories generally. Cock crowing thrice, and all that, except for a few loyalists.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    I see on the previous thread that @HYUFD has now switched his support the retention of masking, because he has read that that is the government's plan.

    Is they guy even capable of independent thought?

    No I have always supported masking. It is just a small practical measure to contain the spread of Covid in winter on public transport and crowded shops.

    Further restrictions on the vaccinated in terms of closing pubs, restaurants and large events and nightclubs is what I am opposed to
    But less than a week ago you were saying that those opposed to plan B measures would stick with the Conservatives because they have nowhere else to go.
    Now it seems they don't have the Conservatives either.

    Masking is not a small practical measure, it is a) pointless theatre which does little or nothing to stop spread of omicron, and b) economically and societally damaging.

    And no matter what polling on the matter says, I don't believe it is popular or beneficial for the government.
    When given the choice, most people don't mask. If they genuinely supported masking, voluntary masking would be much more prevalent.
    Masking appears to be more effective against Omicron that against Delta.

    How is masking economically and societally damaging? I can see big debates over lockdowns or vaccine passports or compulsory vaccination, but masking produces big benefits at pretty minimal costs.
    Economically: because people don't do stuff when they have to wear masks to do so.
    Societally: because it's pretty dystopian to have everyone walking around hidden by a face mask. It does no good for levels of trust or communication. It's damaging to children. It's bad news for the deaf. It contributes to the climate of fear, which does the country no good.
    I find it bizarre that some people continue to believe that masks are non-damaging and have to have this explained to them. If you support masking as a transmission mitigation, fine. That's arguable. But recognise that it's imposition that has major trade-offs.
    There is a group of people who believe that masks are harmless what's all the fuss about it doesn't affect me at all so everyone should keep on wearing them, just in case (ie beyond the need to "protect" the NHS).

    The collective noun for such people is: selfish.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    I find it interesting that possibly the two most respected, admired, established institutions in the UK (apart from the Monarchy) - the NHS and the BBC both really do need major change in what they do, what they can be expected to do and how it’s paid for.

    The problem is that the one party that seems to actively want to make the necessary changes is the Tory party however by virtue of it being the Tory party it creates an almost reflexive resistance to change from anyone on the other side who might realise that both institutions are far from perfect but cannot demand change because it’s Tory.

    Somewhat amusing that Tories are the “conservative” party who are supposed to value the status quo more than the progressives who should be tearing up the status quo to improve life for the masses!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I see on the previous thread that @HYUFD has now switched his support the retention of masking, because he has read that that is the government's plan.

    Is they guy even capable of independent thought?

    No I have always supported masking. It is just a small practical measure to contain the spread of Covid in winter on public transport and crowded shops.

    Further restrictions on the vaccinated in terms of closing pubs, restaurants and large events and nightclubs is what I am opposed to
    So if compulsory masks on trains are scrapped next week, you'll be writing to your MP to complain?
    They can be moved in Spring from compulsory to voluntary
    Why not now? Masking does very little and numbers of positives are declining precipitously: it would appear we are past the peak of hospitalisations too.

    Now, I'm pretty fundamentally against masks for the reasons @pigeon spells out - but I recognise most people have a more conditional approach to them. At what level of which indicator would you support this?

    I think Nick P - who is more up the cautious end of the spectrum - suggested a level of daily positives o around 20,000 at which he'd be happy with this (apologies if I'm misrepresenting you, @NickPalmer ) - what is your level?
    Indeed that's Nick's position (I double checked with him yesterday).

    As it happens, we are now in a situation where Nick is more liberal on restrictions than the current rules – he confirmed yesterday that he's abolish masking in theatres and cinemas right now.
    I think its not a good idea to peg it to a number of positive tests, as this is dependent on other factors than just how much covid is out there. If you had to peg it to something, then hospital admission for covid (not with) would maybe work, or total covid patients. Just doing it for cases make no sense if the idea is to protect the hospitals.
    Well, I agree - I was just trying to coax from HYUFD what metrics he'd use to decide when he would no longer support masking. Nick suggested 20,000 positive tests, but I think largely from a position of 'that sort of level' - I expect he would also have a similar gut feeling about what level of hospitalisations if that metric was thought better.


    Masking is not really to protect hospitals though, that would be another lockdown or mandatory vaxports.

    Masking is just a way to help reduce case spread, as case rates will always be highest in winter
    So would you be keen for masks every winter?
    Or is there a level of prevalence of covid at which you would support demasking?

    Yep. Anyone who didn't wear a mask during the winter in years gone by and perhaps even not and continued "as is" when they had a flu previously is a glaring hypocrite in calling for masks now (and forever).
    Option wasn't available then, in real life (but staying at home when one had flu certainly was, and some of us did that).
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I see on the previous thread that @HYUFD has now switched his support the retention of masking, because he has read that that is the government's plan.

    Is they guy even capable of independent thought?

    No I have always supported masking. It is just a small practical measure to contain the spread of Covid in winter on public transport and crowded shops.

    Further restrictions on the vaccinated in terms of closing pubs, restaurants and large events and nightclubs is what I am opposed to
    So if compulsory masks on trains are scrapped next week, you'll be writing to your MP to complain?
    They can be moved in Spring from compulsory to voluntary
    Why not now? Masking does very little and numbers of positives are declining precipitously: it would appear we are past the peak of hospitalisations too.

    Now, I'm pretty fundamentally against masks for the reasons @pigeon spells out - but I recognise most people have a more conditional approach to them. At what level of which indicator would you support this?

    I think Nick P - who is more up the cautious end of the spectrum - suggested a level of daily positives o around 20,000 at which he'd be happy with this (apologies if I'm misrepresenting you, @NickPalmer ) - what is your level?
    Indeed that's Nick's position (I double checked with him yesterday).

    As it happens, we are now in a situation where Nick is more liberal on restrictions than the current rules – he confirmed yesterday that he's abolish masking in theatres and cinemas right now.
    I think its not a good idea to peg it to a number of positive tests, as this is dependent on other factors than just how much covid is out there. If you had to peg it to something, then hospital admission for covid (not with) would maybe work, or total covid patients. Just doing it for cases make no sense if the idea is to protect the hospitals.
    Well, I agree - I was just trying to coax from HYUFD what metrics he'd use to decide when he would no longer support masking. Nick suggested 20,000 positive tests, but I think largely from a position of 'that sort of level' - I expect he would also have a similar gut feeling about what level of hospitalisations if that metric was thought better.


    Idle pondering: how many "cases" of the flu occur each year.
    Nobody knows, because we don't test for influenza. Asymptomatic flu is, however, a thing ISTR.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited January 2022
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    I don't see why it shouldn't become a smaller, more focused entity. There is no divine right to have a state broadcaster. Its news would be worth perhaps £4.99/month of anyone's money.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:


    Andrew Lilico
    @andrew_lilico
    ·
    2h
    Epi to English translation:

    "Without a new lockdown there'll be at least 3k deaths/day" = With a bit of WFH advice & masking, we can tough it out

    "If schools open there'll be 2k-7k hospitalisations/day" = Do nothing & hospitalisations will peak at ~1k/day - it'll be no problem+

    There are tentative signs cases might turn soon" = Cases started falling a week ago & are now dropping 20%/week

    "If numbers carry on like this for another week I'll be hopeful the wave has turned" = Case have been falling for several weeks & are now dropping 45%/week

    It's hard to understand how these SAGE figures think they're helping by denying reality - the bottom 2 examples here are going on right now and it just makes them look ridiculous. Combined with the top 2, it doesn't make them look like honest brokers of facts and advice.
    Their response is to say that the 3k deaths/day was a worst case scenario. They will say that the models were right and point to the current situation as included as their best case scenario. They will avoid discussing why the current situation was not closer to their central case.
    I've just had a look at the LSHTM paper again:
    https://cmmid.github.io/topics/covid19/reports/omicron_england/report_23_dec_2021.pdf

    Page 8 says that, under their most optimistic scenario (low immune escape, high booster efficacy), and no further control measures beyond the initial Plan B measures, the 95% confidence interval of deaths from December 2021 - April 2022 would be 19,500–28,700. That assumes no reduction in severity being Delta and Omicron, beyond the fact that much more of the population now has immunity.

    We are currently at around 6k deaths from 1 December, running at just over 200/day, which will probably peak soon and then decline.

    Let's assume:
    - next two weeks: 350 per day over the peak of the wave (5k total)
    - February: similar to first half of wave, 150 per day on average (4k total)
    - March/April: attritional rate of say 50 per day (3k total)

    That is 18k total. So, it would be simple for the modellers to argue that the current situation was (just about) included in their model, allowing for say a 10% reduction in actual underlying severity.

    The "most optimistic scenario" median estimate of 2.4k hospitalisations per day currently looks bang on.

    The problem is, that they modelled four different possible scenarios for immune escape and booster efficacy, and we had no way of knowing which one was "right". When you merge together all four confidence intervals, you get something like a peak of hospitalisations of anything from 1,760 to 10,040 - or less than half the previous record to more than double it. With such a massive range of possible outcomes, the modelling is essentially useless for decision making, unless you take the view that you must assume the worst reasonable case scenario. This is effectively what the press did, and it seems what some figures in the DoH did as well.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    dixiedean said:

    Think Rashford may have made a lot of money by playing for Manchester United.


    Even by @MrEd 's bizarre standards that one stood out.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Scott_xP said:

    Penny Mordaunt has emerged as a dark horse candidate to succeed Boris Johnson, @politicshome is told

    The trade minister is backed by multiple Tories elected in 2019 amid a belief she can unify the party

    An ally says she's "focused on doing her job"...

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/penny-mordaunt-emerges-as-dark-horse-candidate-to-succeed-boris-johnson

    An impressively tough backstory, Ms Mordaunt

    Certainly not stockbrokers and Eton


    "Mordaunt was born on 4 March 1973 in Torquay, Devon. The daughter of a former paratrooper, one of twins, she was named after the Arethusa-class cruiser HMS Penelope.[10] Her father, John Mordaunt, born at Hilsea Barracks, served in the Parachute Regiment before retraining as a teacher. Mordaunt has two brothers: James and a younger brother, Edward.[11]... Mordaunt was educated at Oaklands Roman Catholic Academy School [state, co-ed]

    "When Mordaunt was 15 her mother died of breast cancer. Mordaunt's twin brother left school, so she became Edward's prime caregiver. The following year her father was diagnosed with cancer, from which he recovered. To pay her way through sixth-form college, Mordaunt became a magician's assistant to Portsmouth magician Will Ayling, who was once president of The Magic Circle.[15]"

    Wiki
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I see on the previous thread that @HYUFD has now switched his support the retention of masking, because he has read that that is the government's plan.

    Is they guy even capable of independent thought?

    No I have always supported masking. It is just a small practical measure to contain the spread of Covid in winter on public transport and crowded shops.

    Further restrictions on the vaccinated in terms of closing pubs, restaurants and large events and nightclubs is what I am opposed to
    So if compulsory masks on trains are scrapped next week, you'll be writing to your MP to complain?
    They can be moved in Spring from compulsory to voluntary
    Why not now? Masking does very little and numbers of positives are declining precipitously: it would appear we are past the peak of hospitalisations too.

    Now, I'm pretty fundamentally against masks for the reasons @pigeon spells out - but I recognise most people have a more conditional approach to them. At what level of which indicator would you support this?

    I think Nick P - who is more up the cautious end of the spectrum - suggested a level of daily positives o around 20,000 at which he'd be happy with this (apologies if I'm misrepresenting you, @NickPalmer ) - what is your level?
    Indeed that's Nick's position (I double checked with him yesterday).

    As it happens, we are now in a situation where Nick is more liberal on restrictions than the current rules – he confirmed yesterday that he's abolish masking in theatres and cinemas right now.
    I think its not a good idea to peg it to a number of positive tests, as this is dependent on other factors than just how much covid is out there. If you had to peg it to something, then hospital admission for covid (not with) would maybe work, or total covid patients. Just doing it for cases make no sense if the idea is to protect the hospitals.
    Well, I agree - I was just trying to coax from HYUFD what metrics he'd use to decide when he would no longer support masking. Nick suggested 20,000 positive tests, but I think largely from a position of 'that sort of level' - I expect he would also have a similar gut feeling about what level of hospitalisations if that metric was thought better.


    Masking is not really to protect hospitals though, that would be another lockdown or mandatory vaxports.

    Masking is just a way to help reduce case spread, as case rates will always be highest in winter
    So would you be keen for masks every winter?
    Or is there a level of prevalence of covid at which you would support demasking?

    Yep. Anyone who didn't wear a mask during the winter in years gone by and perhaps even not and continued "as is" when they had a flu previously is a glaring hypocrite in calling for masks now (and forever).
    Option wasn't available then, in real life (but staying at home when one had flu certainly was, and some of us did that).
    You wear a mask primarily to prevent infecting others. It was always available. As evidenced by the bizarre if quaint sight of Japanese tourists for the past X years walking around in masks.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited January 2022
    boulay said:

    I find it interesting that possibly the two most respected, admired, established institutions in the UK (apart from the Monarchy) - the NHS and the BBC both really do need major change in what they do, what they can be expected to do and how it’s paid for.

    The problem is that the one party that seems to actively want to make the necessary changes is the Tory party however by virtue of it being the Tory party it creates an almost reflexive resistance to change from anyone on the other side who might realise that both institutions are far from perfect but cannot demand change because it’s Tory.

    Somewhat amusing that Tories are the “conservative” party who are supposed to value the status quo more than the progressives who should be tearing up the status quo to improve life for the masses!

    I think there is also a big public misunderstanding about the reality of both of these organisations.

    I think most people think that the BBC produces most of its own programmes in house, that it never runs any adverts nor owns a commercial ad funded network of channels. When in fact it outsources most of the production, it has a vast commercial arm already, runs ads on its website for overseas visitors and owns UKTV.

    As we found out yesterday somebody popped up and said well look the BBC make Call the Midwife, they wouldn't do that if the BBC was commercial, and then it was pointed out, it isn't made by the BBC at all.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    The thing is the BBC have already basically set this structure up with BBC Studios and UKTV....its just they don't like to shout about it, in case somebody might suggest your approach...

    Most people I talk to have no idea that UKTV is 100% owned by the BBC, many don't even have a clue the BBC have any ownership of the likes of Dave.

    And then you have the opposite, some things branded BBC aren't BBC at all. BBC Good Food isn't the BBC.
    I knew the BBC had a stake in UKTV but didn’t realise it was wholly one owned by the BBC. It explains why they premiere some new stuff on the channel.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    I think you would also need the Government to throw some money in to the initial funding but yep - the plan should be to offer a BBC subscription streaming service worldwide.

    The name alone would give it a fighting chance of surviving but it will need the content of Britbox and others to provide a core critical mass of content to compensate for the recent shows that are currently licensed / shown elsewhere abroad.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    boulay said:

    The problem is that the one party that seems to actively want to make the necessary changes is the Tory party

    If the Tories wanted necessary change that would be one thing.

    Their track record though suggests the only change they actually want is privatisation.

    It's no coincidence that the institutions the Tories hate the most are Nationalised
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited January 2022
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    But the purpose of the BBC, most fundamentally, is also to meet the needs of the British pubic, rather than to become the largest possible global corporation. It can also continue to do that, and raise revenue from some new sources, without becoming as large as netflix.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    edited January 2022

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:


    Andrew Lilico
    @andrew_lilico
    ·
    2h
    Epi to English translation:

    "Without a new lockdown there'll be at least 3k deaths/day" = With a bit of WFH advice & masking, we can tough it out

    "If schools open there'll be 2k-7k hospitalisations/day" = Do nothing & hospitalisations will peak at ~1k/day - it'll be no problem+

    There are tentative signs cases might turn soon" = Cases started falling a week ago & are now dropping 20%/week

    "If numbers carry on like this for another week I'll be hopeful the wave has turned" = Case have been falling for several weeks & are now dropping 45%/week

    It's hard to understand how these SAGE figures think they're helping by denying reality - the bottom 2 examples here are going on right now and it just makes them look ridiculous. Combined with the top 2, it doesn't make them look like honest brokers of facts and advice.
    Their response is to say that the 3k deaths/day was a worst case scenario. They will say that the models were right and point to the current situation as included as their best case scenario. They will avoid discussing why the current situation was not closer to their central case.
    The spectator data tracker is of interest. Looking at it with severity of omicron at 50% of delta it looks ridiculous. Flick to 10% and its a different story - pretty good match for cases. However for deaths, its still too high even at 10%.
    Now you can argue that lots of other mitigations happened because of the fear/worry over omicron, and thats true to a point. But realistically the modelling in this case was extremely poor.

    Have a play -

    https://data.spectator.co.uk/category/sage-scenarios
    I think you're looking at the "Warwick model", which is clearly total crap, and nothing to do with SAGE. The LHSTM is the one on which the SAGE modelling is based.

    Edit: I'm no longer sure SAGE were not looking at the Warwick model as well. If they were, that's a... problem.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    TOPPING said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I see on the previous thread that @HYUFD has now switched his support the retention of masking, because he has read that that is the government's plan.

    Is they guy even capable of independent thought?

    No I have always supported masking. It is just a small practical measure to contain the spread of Covid in winter on public transport and crowded shops.

    Further restrictions on the vaccinated in terms of closing pubs, restaurants and large events and nightclubs is what I am opposed to
    So if compulsory masks on trains are scrapped next week, you'll be writing to your MP to complain?
    They can be moved in Spring from compulsory to voluntary
    Why not now? Masking does very little and numbers of positives are declining precipitously: it would appear we are past the peak of hospitalisations too.

    Now, I'm pretty fundamentally against masks for the reasons @pigeon spells out - but I recognise most people have a more conditional approach to them. At what level of which indicator would you support this?

    I think Nick P - who is more up the cautious end of the spectrum - suggested a level of daily positives o around 20,000 at which he'd be happy with this (apologies if I'm misrepresenting you, @NickPalmer ) - what is your level?
    Indeed that's Nick's position (I double checked with him yesterday).

    As it happens, we are now in a situation where Nick is more liberal on restrictions than the current rules – he confirmed yesterday that he's abolish masking in theatres and cinemas right now.
    I think its not a good idea to peg it to a number of positive tests, as this is dependent on other factors than just how much covid is out there. If you had to peg it to something, then hospital admission for covid (not with) would maybe work, or total covid patients. Just doing it for cases make no sense if the idea is to protect the hospitals.
    Well, I agree - I was just trying to coax from HYUFD what metrics he'd use to decide when he would no longer support masking. Nick suggested 20,000 positive tests, but I think largely from a position of 'that sort of level' - I expect he would also have a similar gut feeling about what level of hospitalisations if that metric was thought better.


    Masking is not really to protect hospitals though, that would be another lockdown or mandatory vaxports.

    Masking is just a way to help reduce case spread, as case rates will always be highest in winter
    So would you be keen for masks every winter?
    Or is there a level of prevalence of covid at which you would support demasking?

    Yep. Anyone who didn't wear a mask during the winter in years gone by and perhaps even not and continued "as is" when they had a flu previously is a glaring hypocrite in calling for masks now (and forever).
    Option wasn't available then, in real life (but staying at home when one had flu certainly was, and some of us did that).
    You wear a mask primarily to prevent infecting others. It was always available. As evidenced by the bizarre if quaint sight of Japanese tourists for the past X years walking around in masks.
    Not where I live, actually. Don't ever remember that in Edinburgh (apart from an American visitor during the anthrax scare). Maybe a London thing?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    On the tennis betting, so as expected Djoko bets were voided by betfair exchange and a new market formed without him. Therefore I also expected the equivalent of a Rule 4 deduction on bets matched on other players prior to the withdrawal. A chunky one too since the 'horse' pulled out was a short price. But it's not the case. No adjustment was made. Great for me as a backer - of Zverev and Sinner if you're interested - but I'd feel rather pissed off if I had lay bets.

    I don't think a new market has been formed. Just the old market with Djokovic removed and bets refunded as per their rules.
    Per the rules, yes, and quite a loophole as I see it. If Djok had started the other prices wouldn't have moved much because they were quoted on the basis he would start. It was a complete market, all runners quoted 'with a run'. So, you could have gone in and backed all the contenders where there was decent liquidity, lose little or nothing if Djok won his 2nd appeal, but if he lost it - which was close to a certainty - end up with a raft of juicy longs that could be closed or traded to taste. I failed to deduce this upfront. I've benefited because of the 2 bets I had made but I do feel I've missed a trick.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Before we all celebrate the Death of Covid, maintain a mild frown - but no more than that - as you stare in the direction of Denmark, where they have the new sub-variant, Omicron FFS, AKA Omicron BA2:



    "Tim White
    @TWMCLtd

    Meanwhile #Denmark sets a new all-time record and its 7-day infection rate hits 4,000 AD/M for the first time. France + Ireland are the only other major countries to reach this level.

    28,780 new #Covid19 cases today, almost exactly double last Monday. 11 more have died.
    The figures from #Denmark obviously concerning as we watch the BA.2 strain of #Omicron.

    I also have to report the number of Danish #Covid19 patients hospitalised is now at its highest level for almost exactly a year (18 Jan 2021)
    A rise of 68 today to 802
    But in ICU just 52 (-7)

    #Denmark's rise in #Covid19 hospitalisations could well be in line with the increase and rapid growth of infections in the wider community. So people needing treatment for something else, happen to test positive.

    If BA2 became dominant 2 weeks ago it's good ICU numbers are low"


    https://twitter.com/TWMCLtd/status/1483065330939437058?s=20
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    But the purpose of the BBC, most fundamentally, is also to meet the needs of the British pubic, rather than become the largest possible global corporation. It can also continue to do that, and raise revenue from some new sources, without becoming as large as netflix.
    It can't though because the BBC cannot afford to purchase content outright anymore. See for instance the number of Netflix and Amazon co-productions that the BBC have to do to avoid a program looking cheap.

    Were we to go back 10 years Around the World in 80 days would look brilliant, now we can spot the areas in which shortcuts were taken to save money - just compare it to a Netflix / Amazon / HBO production.
  • Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    The thing is the BBC have already basically set this structure up with BBC Studios and UKTV....its just they don't like to shout about it, in case somebody might suggest your approach...

    Most people I talk to have no idea that UKTV is 100% owned by the BBC, many don't even have a clue the BBC have any ownership of the likes of Dave.

    And then you have the opposite, some things branded BBC aren't BBC at all. BBC Good Food isn't the BBC.
    I knew the BBC had a stake in UKTV but didn’t realise it was wholly one owned by the BBC. It explains why they premiere some new stuff on the channel.
    The BBC have a long history of this sort of thing e.g. they bought the Lonely Planet publisher.

    That's all fine, but it makes a mockery of well we couldn't possibly run any ads or be involved in commercial activities, it would compromise our integrity.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I see on the previous thread that @HYUFD has now switched his support the retention of masking, because he has read that that is the government's plan.

    Is they guy even capable of independent thought?

    No I have always supported masking. It is just a small practical measure to contain the spread of Covid in winter on public transport and crowded shops.

    Further restrictions on the vaccinated in terms of closing pubs, restaurants and large events and nightclubs is what I am opposed to
    So if compulsory masks on trains are scrapped next week, you'll be writing to your MP to complain?
    They can be moved in Spring from compulsory to voluntary
    Why not now? Masking does very little and numbers of positives are declining precipitously: it would appear we are past the peak of hospitalisations too.

    Now, I'm pretty fundamentally against masks for the reasons @pigeon spells out - but I recognise most people have a more conditional approach to them. At what level of which indicator would you support this?

    I think Nick P - who is more up the cautious end of the spectrum - suggested a level of daily positives o around 20,000 at which he'd be happy with this (apologies if I'm misrepresenting you, @NickPalmer ) - what is your level?
    Indeed that's Nick's position (I double checked with him yesterday).

    As it happens, we are now in a situation where Nick is more liberal on restrictions than the current rules – he confirmed yesterday that he's abolish masking in theatres and cinemas right now.
    I think its not a good idea to peg it to a number of positive tests, as this is dependent on other factors than just how much covid is out there. If you had to peg it to something, then hospital admission for covid (not with) would maybe work, or total covid patients. Just doing it for cases make no sense if the idea is to protect the hospitals.
    Well, I agree - I was just trying to coax from HYUFD what metrics he'd use to decide when he would no longer support masking. Nick suggested 20,000 positive tests, but I think largely from a position of 'that sort of level' - I expect he would also have a similar gut feeling about what level of hospitalisations if that metric was thought better.


    Masking is not really to protect hospitals though, that would be another lockdown or mandatory vaxports.

    Masking is just a way to help reduce case spread, as case rates will always be highest in winter
    So would you be keen for masks every winter?
    Or is there a level of prevalence of covid at which you would support demasking?

    Yep. Anyone who didn't wear a mask during the winter in years gone by and perhaps even not and continued "as is" when they had a flu previously is a glaring hypocrite in calling for masks now (and forever).
    Option wasn't available then, in real life (but staying at home when one had flu certainly was, and some of us did that).
    Of course the option was available. You've been able to buy medical facemasks since the Year Dot.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited January 2022
    I've always though Mordaunt has been one to watch. She's just immediately obviously different in style, even before knew her backstory below as paratrooper's daugter, teenage caregiver, and magician's assistant.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    I don't see why it shouldn't become a smaller, more focused entity. There is no divine right to have a state broadcaster. Its news would be worth perhaps £4.99/month of anyone's money.
    The issue is that you're still thinking in the same outmoded way that the BBC is. A £4.99/m service would be competing with Sky News which is free and GB News which is also free. Are we really saying that people will pay up £4.99 on their Sky bill just to get BBC News? I find that extremely unlikely.

    The channels are going the way of the dodo, the TV is primarily becoming the household's main streaming device after years of mobiles and tablets eating into its share. TVs getting bigger is a huge part of this and again, the modern TV watcher with a 55" or 65" one wants content that will wow them and they are willing to pay £12 per month to Netflix to get it. The reality where the BBC is still bound to produce news or sports coverage on a commercial basis doesn't exist, there's just no money in it without live sport.

    The public service element can be stripped back to bare essentials and funded from general taxation, the commercial parts should be able to properly use commercial avenues to compete.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    The thing is the BBC have already basically set this structure up with BBC Studios and UKTV....its just they don't like to shout about it, in case somebody might suggest your approach...

    Most people I talk to have no idea that UKTV is 100% owned by the BBC, many don't even have a clue the BBC have any ownership of the likes of Dave.

    And then you have the opposite, some things branded BBC aren't BBC at all. BBC Good Food isn't the BBC.
    I knew the BBC had a stake in UKTV but didn’t realise it was wholly one owned by the BBC. It explains why they premiere some new stuff on the channel.
    The BBC have a long history of this sort of thing e.g. they bought the Lonely Planet publisher.

    That's all fine, but it makes a mockery of well we couldn't possibly run any ads or be involved in commercial activities, it would compromise our integrity.
    They also sold it at a whopping great loss because the world moved on and travel guides shifted to the internet with crowd sourced data updated in real time rather than year old books printed on paper.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I see on the previous thread that @HYUFD has now switched his support the retention of masking, because he has read that that is the government's plan.

    Is they guy even capable of independent thought?

    No I have always supported masking. It is just a small practical measure to contain the spread of Covid in winter on public transport and crowded shops.

    Further restrictions on the vaccinated in terms of closing pubs, restaurants and large events and nightclubs is what I am opposed to
    So if compulsory masks on trains are scrapped next week, you'll be writing to your MP to complain?
    They can be moved in Spring from compulsory to voluntary
    Why not now? Masking does very little and numbers of positives are declining precipitously: it would appear we are past the peak of hospitalisations too.

    Now, I'm pretty fundamentally against masks for the reasons @pigeon spells out - but I recognise most people have a more conditional approach to them. At what level of which indicator would you support this?

    I think Nick P - who is more up the cautious end of the spectrum - suggested a level of daily positives o around 20,000 at which he'd be happy with this (apologies if I'm misrepresenting you, @NickPalmer ) - what is your level?
    Indeed that's Nick's position (I double checked with him yesterday).

    As it happens, we are now in a situation where Nick is more liberal on restrictions than the current rules – he confirmed yesterday that he's abolish masking in theatres and cinemas right now.
    I think its not a good idea to peg it to a number of positive tests, as this is dependent on other factors than just how much covid is out there. If you had to peg it to something, then hospital admission for covid (not with) would maybe work, or total covid patients. Just doing it for cases make no sense if the idea is to protect the hospitals.
    Well, I agree - I was just trying to coax from HYUFD what metrics he'd use to decide when he would no longer support masking. Nick suggested 20,000 positive tests, but I think largely from a position of 'that sort of level' - I expect he would also have a similar gut feeling about what level of hospitalisations if that metric was thought better.


    Masking is not really to protect hospitals though, that would be another lockdown or mandatory vaxports.

    Masking is just a way to help reduce case spread, as case rates will always be highest in winter
    So would you be keen for masks every winter?
    Or is there a level of prevalence of covid at which you would support demasking?

    Yep. Anyone who didn't wear a mask during the winter in years gone by and perhaps even not and continued "as is" when they had a flu previously is a glaring hypocrite in calling for masks now (and forever).
    Option wasn't available then, in real life (but staying at home when one had flu certainly was, and some of us did that).
    You wear a mask primarily to prevent infecting others. It was always available. As evidenced by the bizarre if quaint sight of Japanese tourists for the past X years walking around in masks.
    Not where I live, actually. Don't ever remember that in Edinburgh (apart from an American visitor during the anthrax scare). Maybe a London thing?
    Yep was certainly a London thing (is the only experience I have of seeing it). Not rare at all if not uniformly for every Japanese tourist.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    I don't see why it shouldn't become a smaller, more focused entity. There is no divine right to have a state broadcaster. Its news would be worth perhaps £4.99/month of anyone's money.
    As @MaxPB suggests, you end up with a small and focussed public service broadcaster funded by taxation, showing news, arts, religious, childrens, regional etc; and a larger entertainment organisation funded by a combination of subscription, advertising, the back catalogue, share issues or any other way they care to raise cash.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited January 2022
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    The thing is the BBC have already basically set this structure up with BBC Studios and UKTV....its just they don't like to shout about it, in case somebody might suggest your approach...

    Most people I talk to have no idea that UKTV is 100% owned by the BBC, many don't even have a clue the BBC have any ownership of the likes of Dave.

    And then you have the opposite, some things branded BBC aren't BBC at all. BBC Good Food isn't the BBC.
    I knew the BBC had a stake in UKTV but didn’t realise it was wholly one owned by the BBC. It explains why they premiere some new stuff on the channel.
    The BBC have a long history of this sort of thing e.g. they bought the Lonely Planet publisher.

    That's all fine, but it makes a mockery of well we couldn't possibly run any ads or be involved in commercial activities, it would compromise our integrity.
    They also sold it at a whopping great loss because the world moved on and travel guides shifted to the internet with crowd sourced data updated in real time rather than year old books printed on paper.
    Oh yes they balls up royally, again. My point was they try to ride these two horses, while saying but no we are the BBC, we are above being comprised by such grubby things as adverts or having to work with brands to make any money.....as I flick over to Dave, where some panel show is in association with Cobra beer or whoever they have doing product placement these days.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited January 2022
    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    But the purpose of the BBC, most fundamentally, is also to meet the needs of the British pubic, rather than become the largest possible global corporation. It can also continue to do that, and raise revenue from some new sources, without becoming as large as netflix.
    It can't though because the BBC cannot afford to purchase content outright anymore. See for instance the number of Netflix and Amazon co-productions that the BBC have to do to avoid a program looking cheap.

    Were we to go back 10 years Around the World in 80 days would look brilliant, now we can spot the areas in which shortcuts were taken to save money - just compare it to a Netflix / Amazon / HBO production.
    I agree on the funding points, but this also presupposes that budget, and the power to purchase resources outside, is by far the most important, or only, criterion to success. In the BBC's heyday, in fact it wasn't. It obviously helps enormously, but there's much more.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    OT Amazon seems to have suspended its planned cancellation of Visa credit cards.

    I only learnt of this possibility on here.
    If Amazon had been serious, they'd have been informing customers (they weren't) and telling them they needed another way to pay. Given many are wedded to their bank and credit cards, it simply would've meant losing nearly half their customer base.

    If I was VISA, I'd have simply called their bluff.....
    I got constant warning e-mails from Amazon
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Penny Mordaunt has emerged as a dark horse candidate to succeed Boris Johnson, @politicshome is told

    The trade minister is backed by multiple Tories elected in 2019 amid a belief she can unify the party

    An ally says she's "focused on doing her job"...

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/penny-mordaunt-emerges-as-dark-horse-candidate-to-succeed-boris-johnson

    An impressively tough backstory, Ms Mordaunt

    Certainly not stockbrokers and Eton


    "Mordaunt was born on 4 March 1973 in Torquay, Devon. The daughter of a former paratrooper, one of twins, she was named after the Arethusa-class cruiser HMS Penelope.[10] Her father, John Mordaunt, born at Hilsea Barracks, served in the Parachute Regiment before retraining as a teacher. Mordaunt has two brothers: James and a younger brother, Edward.[11]... Mordaunt was educated at Oaklands Roman Catholic Academy School [state, co-ed]

    "When Mordaunt was 15 her mother died of breast cancer. Mordaunt's twin brother left school, so she became Edward's prime caregiver. The following year her father was diagnosed with cancer, from which he recovered. To pay her way through sixth-form college, Mordaunt became a magician's assistant to Portsmouth magician Will Ayling, who was once president of The Magic Circle.[15]"

    Wiki
    She’s also a big fan of cock.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=hvLcYUXBBuc
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    Including funding out of general taxation? Are they strongly opposed to that?
    It would make them dependent on the state for their funding.

    This was the last poll I can find. The license fee is supported by less than a quarter of all people but the other alternatives aren’t massively supported either.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/media/trackers/how-should-the-bbc-be-funded
    It would. But they are now really. The govt sets and enforces the LF. But I was just picking up on your comment that the BBC itself is opposed to anything but the LF. And wondering if that meant they - the BBC not the public - were opposed to being funded out of general taxation. Maybe they would be. Not so much because of state interference, imo, but because they don't like to think of themselves as public sector.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    TOPPING said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I see on the previous thread that @HYUFD has now switched his support the retention of masking, because he has read that that is the government's plan.

    Is they guy even capable of independent thought?

    No I have always supported masking. It is just a small practical measure to contain the spread of Covid in winter on public transport and crowded shops.

    Further restrictions on the vaccinated in terms of closing pubs, restaurants and large events and nightclubs is what I am opposed to
    So if compulsory masks on trains are scrapped next week, you'll be writing to your MP to complain?
    They can be moved in Spring from compulsory to voluntary
    Why not now? Masking does very little and numbers of positives are declining precipitously: it would appear we are past the peak of hospitalisations too.

    Now, I'm pretty fundamentally against masks for the reasons @pigeon spells out - but I recognise most people have a more conditional approach to them. At what level of which indicator would you support this?

    I think Nick P - who is more up the cautious end of the spectrum - suggested a level of daily positives o around 20,000 at which he'd be happy with this (apologies if I'm misrepresenting you, @NickPalmer ) - what is your level?
    Indeed that's Nick's position (I double checked with him yesterday).

    As it happens, we are now in a situation where Nick is more liberal on restrictions than the current rules – he confirmed yesterday that he's abolish masking in theatres and cinemas right now.
    I think its not a good idea to peg it to a number of positive tests, as this is dependent on other factors than just how much covid is out there. If you had to peg it to something, then hospital admission for covid (not with) would maybe work, or total covid patients. Just doing it for cases make no sense if the idea is to protect the hospitals.
    Well, I agree - I was just trying to coax from HYUFD what metrics he'd use to decide when he would no longer support masking. Nick suggested 20,000 positive tests, but I think largely from a position of 'that sort of level' - I expect he would also have a similar gut feeling about what level of hospitalisations if that metric was thought better.


    Masking is not really to protect hospitals though, that would be another lockdown or mandatory vaxports.

    Masking is just a way to help reduce case spread, as case rates will always be highest in winter
    So would you be keen for masks every winter?
    Or is there a level of prevalence of covid at which you would support demasking?

    Yep. Anyone who didn't wear a mask during the winter in years gone by and perhaps even not and continued "as is" when they had a flu previously is a glaring hypocrite in calling for masks now (and forever).
    Option wasn't available then, in real life (but staying at home when one had flu certainly was, and some of us did that).
    You wear a mask primarily to prevent infecting others. It was always available. As evidenced by the bizarre if quaint sight of Japanese tourists for the past X years walking around in masks.
    Not where I live, actually. Don't ever remember that in Edinburgh (apart from an American visitor during the anthrax scare). Maybe a London thing?
    Yep was certainly a London thing (is the only experience I have of seeing it). Not rare at all if not uniformly for every Japanese tourist.
    Not Japan - all of East Asia

    I've seen them for many years in Singapore, HK, Korea, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, richer bits of China. It is viewed as common courtesy that, if you think you have a cold or flu or some other respiratory bug, you mask up, so you don't cough or sneeze your germs over everyone else. As you should, frankly

    It is one of several ways in which they are simply more civilised than us.

    Cf bum guns
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    But the purpose of the BBC, most fundamentally, is also to meet the needs of the British pubic, rather than to become the largest possible global corporation. It can also continue to do that, and raise revenue from some new sources, without becoming as large as netflix.
    Why can't it do both? The largest buyer of UK made TV is currently Netflix (American), the largest seller of UK made TV is currently Sony (Japanese). That's pretty shameful.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213
    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    On the tennis betting, so as expected Djoko bets were voided by betfair exchange and a new market formed without him. Therefore I also expected the equivalent of a Rule 4 deduction on bets matched on other players prior to the withdrawal. A chunky one too since the 'horse' pulled out was a short price. But it's not the case. No adjustment was made. Great for me as a backer - of Zverev and Sinner if you're interested - but I'd feel rather pissed off if I had lay bets.

    I don't think a new market has been formed. Just the old market with Djokovic removed and bets refunded as per their rules.
    Per the rules, yes, and quite a loophole as I see it. If Djok had started the other prices wouldn't have moved much because they were quoted on the basis he would start. It was a complete market, all runners quoted 'with a run'. So, you could have gone in and backed all the contenders where there was decent liquidity, lose little or nothing if Djok won his 2nd appeal, but if he lost it - which was close to a certainty - end up with a raft of juicy longs that could be closed or traded to taste. I failed to deduce this upfront. I've benefited because of the 2 bets I had made but I do feel I've missed a trick.
    The prices were formed on the basis that the contenders may or may not start, with provision in the rules that if they didn't then those bets would be voided. This is why Djokovic's price was in my view a tad too high, because his start was in doubt and some punters hadn't read the rules and didn't realise that the bets would be voided if a no show.

    This meant that the value was in backing Djokovic at a good price in the knowledge you would get your money back if he didn't start. Which is what I did.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    I don't see why it shouldn't become a smaller, more focused entity. There is no divine right to have a state broadcaster. Its news would be worth perhaps £4.99/month of anyone's money.
    The issue is that you're still thinking in the same outmoded way that the BBC is. A £4.99/m service would be competing with Sky News which is free and GB News which is also free. Are we really saying that people will pay up £4.99 on their Sky bill just to get BBC News? I find that extremely unlikely.

    The channels are going the way of the dodo, the TV is primarily becoming the household's main streaming device after years of mobiles and tablets eating into its share. TVs getting bigger is a huge part of this and again, the modern TV watcher with a 55" or 65" one wants content that will wow them and they are willing to pay £12 per month to Netflix to get it. The reality where the BBC is still bound to produce news or sports coverage on a commercial basis doesn't exist, there's just no money in it without live sport.

    The public service element can be stripped back to bare essentials and funded from general taxation, the commercial parts should be able to properly use commercial avenues to compete.
    Hmm interesting. Sky and GBN both being free (but of course the former subsidised by Sky subscriptions). Is the reach of those really comparable? I'm not sure there is a Sky Cambridgeshire, for example. There would imo be plenty of people happy to pay a fiver a month for a trusted non-aligned news broadcaster. And how is Sky radio doing these days.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited January 2022

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    But the purpose of the BBC, most fundamentally, is also to meet the needs of the British pubic, rather than become the largest possible global corporation. It can also continue to do that, and raise revenue from some new sources, without becoming as large as netflix.
    It can't though because the BBC cannot afford to purchase content outright anymore. See for instance the number of Netflix and Amazon co-productions that the BBC have to do to avoid a program looking cheap.

    Were we to go back 10 years Around the World in 80 days would look brilliant, now we can spot the areas in which shortcuts were taken to save money - just compare it to a Netflix / Amazon / HBO production.
    I agree on the funding points, but this also presupposes that budget is by far the most important criterion to success. In the BBC's heyday in fact it wasn't.
    The problem is now actors, producers, writer, etc etc etc have competition who they can go to for big bucks. So a lot of bigger names who still do BBC work are doing it as a favour around their "proper" work.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Scott_xP said:

    boulay said:

    The problem is that the one party that seems to actively want to make the necessary changes is the Tory party

    If the Tories wanted necessary change that would be one thing.

    Their track record though suggests the only change they actually want is privatisation.

    It's no coincidence that the institutions the Tories hate the most are Nationalised
    The only institutions left to privatise really are the BBC and the NHS and Network Rail after Thatcher, Major and Cameron privatised the rest.

    The NHS is untouchable and the Tories are not going to do down a US style private insurance model. The latter only became Network Rail as the privatised Railtrack was such a disaster.

    So that only leaves the BBC to privatise and fund by ads and subscription, ending the licence fee, certainly exclusive to the BBC
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    IshmaelZ said:

    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson_MP/status/1481952575238852608

    Sue Gray is totally independent, so it is entirely up to her whether or not she wants to become Baroness Sue Gray in the near future.
    #BorisJohnsonResign

    The attacks on Sue Gray's integrity are unwarranted
    How many gallons of whitewash has she ordered is the question
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,149
    edited January 2022

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    The thing is the BBC have already basically set this structure up with BBC Studios and UKTV....its just they don't like to shout about it, in case somebody might suggest your approach...

    Most people I talk to have no idea that UKTV is 100% owned by the BBC, many don't even have a clue the BBC have any ownership of the likes of Dave.
    I think the proposal being made is essentially to flip the power situation. So at the moment, BBC Studios is a subsidiary (and UKTV a subsidiary of Studios). So it is producing content for the public service arm (and others) and monetising content produced by the public service arm either outside the UK or at later date after first broadcast (re-runs on Dave and so on).

    But the proposal from Max is, essentially, to spin off Studios through flotation with a deal for a period with BBC public service but essentially a private concern with commercial revenues through ads and subs. So, rather like Ocado being spun off by Waitrose but no longer acting for them, in ten years time you essentially have a rump BBC doing minority stuff.

    I think it's deeply flawed for many reasons. These include that spinning off tends to immediately destroy value in Studios (i.e. not a very attractive investment without the public service side link), that the revenues are lost to public service broadcasting (Dave ad revenues do in fact help pay for BBC services), and that the BBC itself becomes a husk if it just does a bit of netball and news local news (much of the argument for the BBC is you can slip people a bit of this precisely because they are watching for the popular shows). In reality, I think it is two proposals masquerading as one - firstly slash BBC funding and, secondly, spin off a production company raising a few quid and recreating some of the momentary drama and excitement of "tell Sid" for those of a certain age.

    However, I see that it is different from the current commercial arm arrangements.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    I don't see why it shouldn't become a smaller, more focused entity. There is no divine right to have a state broadcaster. Its news would be worth perhaps £4.99/month of anyone's money.
    As @MaxPB suggests, you end up with a small and focussed public service broadcaster funded by taxation, showing news, arts, religious, childrens, regional etc; and a larger entertainment organisation funded by a combination of subscription, advertising, the back catalogue, share issues or any other way they care to raise cash.
    I have no particular objection to that - I just think that the BBC is probably good value atm although I am a fully signed up member of the it shouldn't be compulsory club.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375
    edited January 2022
    Regardless of the rights/wrongs of the Nadine Dorries BBC announcement, it should have been made to Parliament first - not via the Mail and a tweet.

    I expect yet another bollocking for the Tories from the Speaker.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    The thing is the BBC have already basically set this structure up with BBC Studios and UKTV....its just they don't like to shout about it, in case somebody might suggest your approach...

    Most people I talk to have no idea that UKTV is 100% owned by the BBC, many don't even have a clue the BBC have any ownership of the likes of Dave.

    And then you have the opposite, some things branded BBC aren't BBC at all. BBC Good Food isn't the BBC.
    I knew the BBC had a stake in UKTV but didn’t realise it was wholly one owned by the BBC. It explains why they premiere some new stuff on the channel.
    The BBC have a long history of this sort of thing e.g. they bought the Lonely Planet publisher.

    That's all fine, but it makes a mockery of well we couldn't possibly run any ads or be involved in commercial activities, it would compromise our integrity.
    BBC Good Food is another prime example

    When the BBC was thinking of axing it everyone said OH no, how can they do that, these evil Tories where will they stop.......

    Until it was pointed out that BBC Good Food was handed out "free" (actually not free, of course, but funded by almost every taxpayer in the land whether we like it or not) AND meanwhile, because it was "free" BBC Good Food was driving paid-for cooking magazines out of business, so seriously damaging the ecosystem and destroying journalistic jobs

    It is bollocks like this that needs to be sorted FIRST
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    IshmaelZ said:

    OT Amazon seems to have suspended its planned cancellation of Visa credit cards.

    I only learnt of this possibility on here.
    If Amazon had been serious, they'd have been informing customers (they weren't) and telling them they needed another way to pay. Given many are wedded to their bank and credit cards, it simply would've meant losing nearly half their customer base.

    If I was VISA, I'd have simply called their bluff.....
    They for sure were informing customers, they bullied me into substituting a debit card.
    Ahhhh. That might be why then. We don't (my wife or I) have credit cards. I'd misread it as any VISA cards (debit cards included).
    Mine is a Visa debit and I got shedloads of e-mails, and I also had a mastercard on to boot so totally unecessary
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    But the purpose of the BBC, most fundamentally, is also to meet the needs of the British pubic, rather than to become the largest possible global corporation. It can also continue to do that, and raise revenue from some new sources, without becoming as large as netflix.
    Why can't it do both? The largest buyer of UK made TV is currently Netflix (American), the largest seller of UK made TV is currently Sony (Japanese). That's pretty shameful.
    I agree. But the BBC still needs to most fundamentally remain a British public service, somehow. Otherwise there's no justification for government help.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:
    That's interesting - they were trailing £860m expected. Still a nice wedge, however, and a welcome further boost for offshore wind.
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/24/scottish-seabed-windfarm-auction-set-to-bring-in-860m

    Time to review the Barnett Formula :smile:
    They steal it all anyway , we will get piss all out of it
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    I don't see why it shouldn't become a smaller, more focused entity. There is no divine right to have a state broadcaster. Its news would be worth perhaps £4.99/month of anyone's money.
    The issue is that you're still thinking in the same outmoded way that the BBC is. A £4.99/m service would be competing with Sky News which is free and GB News which is also free. Are we really saying that people will pay up £4.99 on their Sky bill just to get BBC News? I find that extremely unlikely.

    The channels are going the way of the dodo, the TV is primarily becoming the household's main streaming device after years of mobiles and tablets eating into its share. TVs getting bigger is a huge part of this and again, the modern TV watcher with a 55" or 65" one wants content that will wow them and they are willing to pay £12 per month to Netflix to get it. The reality where the BBC is still bound to produce news or sports coverage on a commercial basis doesn't exist, there's just no money in it without live sport.

    The public service element can be stripped back to bare essentials and funded from general taxation, the commercial parts should be able to properly use commercial avenues to compete.
    Hmm interesting. Sky and GBN both being free (but of course the former subsidised by Sky subscriptions). Is the reach of those really comparable? I'm not sure there is a Sky Cambridgeshire, for example. There would imo be plenty of people happy to pay a fiver a month for a trusted non-aligned news broadcaster. And how is Sky radio doing these days.
    Sky News is free on Freeview and YouTube, I'm not sure about GBN as I've never watched it or tried to.

    I think you're missing my point, there's no money in local news or local radio, it's a market that is completely propped up by the licence fee payer and is why the commercial aspects of BBC productions are utterly incapable of competing with the firepower that Netflix, Sony or Disney have got. They can't expand their revenue lines easily, they have got very high fixed costs for what is essentially perpetually loss making TV and radio production and they also have a public which wants to be wowed by production quality that we see in The Crown or The Witcher.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited January 2022
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    The thing is the BBC have already basically set this structure up with BBC Studios and UKTV....its just they don't like to shout about it, in case somebody might suggest your approach...

    Most people I talk to have no idea that UKTV is 100% owned by the BBC, many don't even have a clue the BBC have any ownership of the likes of Dave.

    And then you have the opposite, some things branded BBC aren't BBC at all. BBC Good Food isn't the BBC.
    I knew the BBC had a stake in UKTV but didn’t realise it was wholly one owned by the BBC. It explains why they premiere some new stuff on the channel.
    The BBC have a long history of this sort of thing e.g. they bought the Lonely Planet publisher.

    That's all fine, but it makes a mockery of well we couldn't possibly run any ads or be involved in commercial activities, it would compromise our integrity.
    BBC Good Food is another prime example

    When the BBC was thinking of axing it everyone said OH no, how can they do that, these evil Tories where will they stop.......

    Until it was pointed out that BBC Good Food was handed out "free" (actually not free, of course, but funded by almost every taxpayer in the land whether we like it or not) AND meanwhile, because it was "free" BBC Good Food was driving paid-for cooking magazines out of business, so seriously damaging the ecosystem and destroying journalistic jobs

    It is bollocks like this that needs to be sorted FIRST
    Yes that's a good example where the BBC eat others lunch....so they have in the past hollowed out any competition by getting into sectors they really shouldn't be in.

    The problem now of course that model is changing itself. YouTube allows people to do global cooking and it very popular. So the BBC have in the past put a load of other people out of business, now they are continuing to ask for money to fund this vast empire for "public good", when I can go on YouTube and find everybody from Gordon Ramsey to a bloke from Weston Super Mare showing me how to cook recipes. There is no need for BBC to be doing free recipes.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    Regardless of the rights/wrongs of the Nadine Dorries BBC announcement, it should have been made to Parliament first - not via the Mail and a tweet.

    I expect yet another bollocking for the Tories from the Speaker.

    The problem is that the punishment for announcing outside Parliament isn't serious enough.

    A 10 day suspension from Parliament would be the minimum required to stop a minister from performing such a trick and even that only works at times like this where the consequences would be a successful recall petition.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    I don't see why it shouldn't become a smaller, more focused entity. There is no divine right to have a state broadcaster. Its news would be worth perhaps £4.99/month of anyone's money.
    The issue is that you're still thinking in the same outmoded way that the BBC is. A £4.99/m service would be competing with Sky News which is free and GB News which is also free. Are we really saying that people will pay up £4.99 on their Sky bill just to get BBC News? I find that extremely unlikely.

    The channels are going the way of the dodo, the TV is primarily becoming the household's main streaming device after years of mobiles and tablets eating into its share. TVs getting bigger is a huge part of this and again, the modern TV watcher with a 55" or 65" one wants content that will wow them and they are willing to pay £12 per month to Netflix to get it. The reality where the BBC is still bound to produce news or sports coverage on a commercial basis doesn't exist, there's just no money in it without live sport.

    The public service element can be stripped back to bare essentials and funded from general taxation, the commercial parts should be able to properly use commercial avenues to compete.
    Not against this in theory, but some reservations:

    * News at Six is still regularly in the 10 most-watched live broadcasts. It's a mistake to think that people no longer bother. By contrast, Sky, GBTV etc have small audiences.
    * How confident are we that the part covered by general taxation (presumably news, Panomara etc.) would not be stripped back if it was perceived as being critical? Even if the government was utterly scrupulous, might it not have a chilling effect?
    * Just personally, I think BBC programming is vastly superior to the overwhelming majority of stuff on Sky. I'm not sure why - perhaps they just cater for my old-fashioned taste. But I'd worry that commercialing would lead them into the same (IMO) pit of crapness.

    Declasration of interest - I sub to Netflix at £5.99, and watch their stuff occasionally. Their range is generally downmarket too, though that doesn't mean I don't enjoy it.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Endillion said:

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:


    Andrew Lilico
    @andrew_lilico
    ·
    2h
    Epi to English translation:

    "Without a new lockdown there'll be at least 3k deaths/day" = With a bit of WFH advice & masking, we can tough it out

    "If schools open there'll be 2k-7k hospitalisations/day" = Do nothing & hospitalisations will peak at ~1k/day - it'll be no problem+

    There are tentative signs cases might turn soon" = Cases started falling a week ago & are now dropping 20%/week

    "If numbers carry on like this for another week I'll be hopeful the wave has turned" = Case have been falling for several weeks & are now dropping 45%/week

    It's hard to understand how these SAGE figures think they're helping by denying reality - the bottom 2 examples here are going on right now and it just makes them look ridiculous. Combined with the top 2, it doesn't make them look like honest brokers of facts and advice.
    Their response is to say that the 3k deaths/day was a worst case scenario. They will say that the models were right and point to the current situation as included as their best case scenario. They will avoid discussing why the current situation was not closer to their central case.
    The spectator data tracker is of interest. Looking at it with severity of omicron at 50% of delta it looks ridiculous. Flick to 10% and its a different story - pretty good match for cases. However for deaths, its still too high even at 10%.
    Now you can argue that lots of other mitigations happened because of the fear/worry over omicron, and thats true to a point. But realistically the modelling in this case was extremely poor.

    Have a play -

    https://data.spectator.co.uk/category/sage-scenarios
    I think you're looking at the "Warwick model", which is clearly total crap, and nothing to do with SAGE. The LHSTM is the one on which the SAGE modelling is based.

    Edit: I'm no longer sure SAGE were not looking at the Warwick model as well. If they were, that's a... problem.
    Your edit is surely correct. I note that a certain Mike Tildesley is both a Warwick epidemic modeller and on SAGE...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    But the purpose of the BBC, most fundamentally, is also to meet the needs of the British pubic, rather than to become the largest possible global corporation. It can also continue to do that, and raise revenue from some new sources, without becoming as large as netflix.
    Why can't it do both? The largest buyer of UK made TV is currently Netflix (American), the largest seller of UK made TV is currently Sony (Japanese). That's pretty shameful.
    I agree. But the BBC still needs to most fundamentally remain a British public service, somehow. Otherwise there's no justification for government help.
    Keeping UK production studios in UK ownership is a pretty big public service, it's going to be a £20bn industry that is entirely foreign owned in the next 5 years. I think people need to start separating the public service aspect of what the BBC does from the commercial "ratings" aspect. The licence fee is never going to be enough for the BBC to do both, not in the long term. The fixed costs of the public service part of what they do is rising and eating up the licence fee income and basically can't be cut but the "ratings" bit is rising even faster and can be cut. So what we end up with is the BBC eventually going the way I'm saying anyway, with a husk of an organisation which does a few glitzy shows but is basically just churning out local news, radio and sports coverage that a lot of people don't care about anyway.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Penny Mordaunt has emerged as a dark horse candidate to succeed Boris Johnson, @politicshome is told

    The trade minister is backed by multiple Tories elected in 2019 amid a belief she can unify the party

    An ally says she's "focused on doing her job"...

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/penny-mordaunt-emerges-as-dark-horse-candidate-to-succeed-boris-johnson

    An impressively tough backstory, Ms Mordaunt

    Certainly not stockbrokers and Eton


    "Mordaunt was born on 4 March 1973 in Torquay, Devon. The daughter of a former paratrooper, one of twins, she was named after the Arethusa-class cruiser HMS Penelope.[10] Her father, John Mordaunt, born at Hilsea Barracks, served in the Parachute Regiment before retraining as a teacher. Mordaunt has two brothers: James and a younger brother, Edward.[11]... Mordaunt was educated at Oaklands Roman Catholic Academy School [state, co-ed]

    "When Mordaunt was 15 her mother died of breast cancer. Mordaunt's twin brother left school, so she became Edward's prime caregiver. The following year her father was diagnosed with cancer, from which he recovered. To pay her way through sixth-form college, Mordaunt became a magician's assistant to Portsmouth magician Will Ayling, who was once president of The Magic Circle.[15]"

    Wiki
    And I remember her doing SPLASH!

    image
  • MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    I don't see why it shouldn't become a smaller, more focused entity. There is no divine right to have a state broadcaster. Its news would be worth perhaps £4.99/month of anyone's money.
    The issue is that you're still thinking in the same outmoded way that the BBC is. A £4.99/m service would be competing with Sky News which is free and GB News which is also free. Are we really saying that people will pay up £4.99 on their Sky bill just to get BBC News? I find that extremely unlikely.

    The channels are going the way of the dodo, the TV is primarily becoming the household's main streaming device after years of mobiles and tablets eating into its share. TVs getting bigger is a huge part of this and again, the modern TV watcher with a 55" or 65" one wants content that will wow them and they are willing to pay £12 per month to Netflix to get it. The reality where the BBC is still bound to produce news or sports coverage on a commercial basis doesn't exist, there's just no money in it without live sport.

    The public service element can be stripped back to bare essentials and funded from general taxation, the commercial parts should be able to properly use commercial avenues to compete.
    Hmm interesting. Sky and GBN both being free (but of course the former subsidised by Sky subscriptions). Is the reach of those really comparable? I'm not sure there is a Sky Cambridgeshire, for example. There would imo be plenty of people happy to pay a fiver a month for a trusted non-aligned news broadcaster. And how is Sky radio doing these days.
    Sky News is free on Freeview and YouTube, I'm not sure about GBN as I've never watched it or tried to.

    I think you're missing my point, there's no money in local news or local radio, it's a market that is completely propped up by the licence fee payer and is why the commercial aspects of BBC productions are utterly incapable of competing with the firepower that Netflix, Sony or Disney have got. They can't expand their revenue lines easily, they have got very high fixed costs for what is essentially perpetually loss making TV and radio production and they also have a public which wants to be wowed by production quality that we see in The Crown or The Witcher.
    This totally misunderstands how BBC produces content NOW. Well over half of network hours are externally produced and under a quarter are BBC public service productions (the balance is "contestable" content which could be externally produced but where the work is won by BBC Studios as the commercial arm).
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:
    That's interesting - they were trailing £860m expected. Still a nice wedge, however, and a welcome further boost for offshore wind.
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/24/scottish-seabed-windfarm-auction-set-to-bring-in-860m

    Time to review the Barnett Formula :smile:
    They steal it all anyway , we will get piss all out of it
    Nope, it's Scotland's money to do with as it wishes

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2019/1/contents
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Regardless of the rights/wrongs of the Nadine Dorries BBC announcement, it should have been made to Parliament first - not via the Mail and a tweet.

    I expect yet another bollocking for the Tories from the Speaker.

    That’s a fair point. Policy announcements should be always be made to Parliament first, even though every government since 1997 has been terrible at doing so.

    The Speaker needs to censure ministers who do this, irrespective of the nature of the announcement or what we personally think of it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    That at least is more coherent that anything Mad Nad has proposed.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited January 2022

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Penny Mordaunt has emerged as a dark horse candidate to succeed Boris Johnson, @politicshome is told

    The trade minister is backed by multiple Tories elected in 2019 amid a belief she can unify the party

    An ally says she's "focused on doing her job"...

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/penny-mordaunt-emerges-as-dark-horse-candidate-to-succeed-boris-johnson

    An impressively tough backstory, Ms Mordaunt

    Certainly not stockbrokers and Eton


    "Mordaunt was born on 4 March 1973 in Torquay, Devon. The daughter of a former paratrooper, one of twins, she was named after the Arethusa-class cruiser HMS Penelope.[10] Her father, John Mordaunt, born at Hilsea Barracks, served in the Parachute Regiment before retraining as a teacher. Mordaunt has two brothers: James and a younger brother, Edward.[11]... Mordaunt was educated at Oaklands Roman Catholic Academy School [state, co-ed]

    "When Mordaunt was 15 her mother died of breast cancer. Mordaunt's twin brother left school, so she became Edward's prime caregiver. The following year her father was diagnosed with cancer, from which he recovered. To pay her way through sixth-form college, Mordaunt became a magician's assistant to Portsmouth magician Will Ayling, who was once president of The Magic Circle.[15]"

    Wiki
    And I remember her doing SPLASH!

    image
    Being a rare attractive politician also doesn't do any harm either. Male favourites Rory Stewart and Ivan Massow have departed the scene for now, and she doesn't seem to have any female challengers for that crown, although Angela Rayner and Lisa Nandy seem to be popular with some voters on that basis.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    edited January 2022
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    I don't see why it shouldn't become a smaller, more focused entity. There is no divine right to have a state broadcaster. Its news would be worth perhaps £4.99/month of anyone's money.
    The issue is that you're still thinking in the same outmoded way that the BBC is. A £4.99/m service would be competing with Sky News which is free and GB News which is also free. Are we really saying that people will pay up £4.99 on their Sky bill just to get BBC News? I find that extremely unlikely.

    The channels are going the way of the dodo, the TV is primarily becoming the household's main streaming device after years of mobiles and tablets eating into its share. TVs getting bigger is a huge part of this and again, the modern TV watcher with a 55" or 65" one wants content that will wow them and they are willing to pay £12 per month to Netflix to get it. The reality where the BBC is still bound to produce news or sports coverage on a commercial basis doesn't exist, there's just no money in it without live sport.

    The public service element can be stripped back to bare essentials and funded from general taxation, the commercial parts should be able to properly use commercial avenues to compete.
    Hmm interesting. Sky and GBN both being free (but of course the former subsidised by Sky subscriptions). Is the reach of those really comparable? I'm not sure there is a Sky Cambridgeshire, for example. There would imo be plenty of people happy to pay a fiver a month for a trusted non-aligned news broadcaster. And how is Sky radio doing these days.
    Sky News is free on Freeview and YouTube, I'm not sure about GBN as I've never watched it or tried to.

    I think you're missing my point, there's no money in local news or local radio, it's a market that is completely propped up by the licence fee payer and is why the commercial aspects of BBC productions are utterly incapable of competing with the firepower that Netflix, Sony or Disney have got. They can't expand their revenue lines easily, they have got very high fixed costs for what is essentially perpetually loss making TV and radio production and they also have a public which wants to be wowed by production quality that we see in The Crown or The Witcher.
    Worth saying that for local commercial radio - local radio stations are now local for breakfast and evening rush hours only with a single national broadcast the rest of the time.

    There isn't even enough money in local advertising to pay for more than 6-8 hours of local content a day.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    The thing is the BBC have already basically set this structure up with BBC Studios and UKTV....its just they don't like to shout about it, in case somebody might suggest your approach...

    Most people I talk to have no idea that UKTV is 100% owned by the BBC, many don't even have a clue the BBC have any ownership of the likes of Dave.

    And then you have the opposite, some things branded BBC aren't BBC at all. BBC Good Food isn't the BBC.
    I knew the BBC had a stake in UKTV but didn’t realise it was wholly one owned by the BBC. It explains why they premiere some new stuff on the channel.
    The BBC have a long history of this sort of thing e.g. they bought the Lonely Planet publisher.

    That's all fine, but it makes a mockery of well we couldn't possibly run any ads or be involved in commercial activities, it would compromise our integrity.
    BBC Good Food is another prime example

    When the BBC was thinking of axing it everyone said OH no, how can they do that, these evil Tories where will they stop.......

    Until it was pointed out that BBC Good Food was handed out "free" (actually not free, of course, but funded by almost every taxpayer in the land whether we like it or not) AND meanwhile, because it was "free" BBC Good Food was driving paid-for cooking magazines out of business, so seriously damaging the ecosystem and destroying journalistic jobs

    It is bollocks like this that needs to be sorted FIRST
    Yes that's a good example where the BBC eat others lunch....so they have in the past hollowed out any competition by getting into sectors they really shouldn't be in.

    The problem now of course that model is changing itself. YouTube allows people to do global cooking and it very popular. So the BBC have in the past put a load of other people out of business, now they are continuing to ask for money to fund this vast empire for "public good", when I can go on YouTube and find everybody from Gordon Ramsey to a bloke from Weston Super Mare showing me how to cook recipes. There is no need for BBC to be doing free recipes.
    The BBC recipes online are very often excellent, easily accessible and easy to read. Unlike the bullshit videos on YouTube which are ad-ridden talky vehicles for wannabe chefs and which are frequently a faffy nightmare to actually cook from.

    Video, generally, is a pain. Give me a recipe book or simple printed recipe any bloody day.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,747
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Penny Mordaunt has emerged as a dark horse candidate to succeed Boris Johnson, @politicshome is told

    The trade minister is backed by multiple Tories elected in 2019 amid a belief she can unify the party

    An ally says she's "focused on doing her job"...

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/penny-mordaunt-emerges-as-dark-horse-candidate-to-succeed-boris-johnson

    An impressively tough backstory, Ms Mordaunt

    Certainly not stockbrokers and Eton


    "Mordaunt was born on 4 March 1973 in Torquay, Devon. The daughter of a former paratrooper, one of twins, she was named after the Arethusa-class cruiser HMS Penelope.[10] Her father, John Mordaunt, born at Hilsea Barracks, served in the Parachute Regiment before retraining as a teacher. Mordaunt has two brothers: James and a younger brother, Edward.[11]... Mordaunt was educated at Oaklands Roman Catholic Academy School [state, co-ed]

    "When Mordaunt was 15 her mother died of breast cancer. Mordaunt's twin brother left school, so she became Edward's prime caregiver. The following year her father was diagnosed with cancer, from which he recovered. To pay her way through sixth-form college, Mordaunt became a magician's assistant to Portsmouth magician Will Ayling, who was once president of The Magic Circle.[15]"

    Wiki
    She’s also a big fan of cock.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=hvLcYUXBBuc
    Yeah, apparently she lost a bet...

    She is, I think, pretty anti-Boris despite being pro-Brexit. I remember her face when the result of the leadership contest was announced when Boris won - she had a front row seat at the declaration. Looked like she'd swallowed a wasp. She was then summarily sacked as Defence Secretary, her dream job, despite having only being in post for a few weeks. Has been rehabilitated a bit since, by being made Paymaster General. If Rishi blows up she is certainly a very interesting alternative - much more presentable than Liz Truss. One to watch.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Masks and the BBC?
    I think the government will be delighted by this.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    But the purpose of the BBC, most fundamentally, is also to meet the needs of the British pubic, rather than to become the largest possible global corporation. It can also continue to do that, and raise revenue from some new sources, without becoming as large as netflix.
    Why can't it do both? The largest buyer of UK made TV is currently Netflix (American), the largest seller of UK made TV is currently Sony (Japanese). That's pretty shameful.
    I agree. But the BBC still needs to most fundamentally remain a British public service, somehow. Otherwise there's no justification for government help.
    Keeping UK production studios in UK ownership is a pretty big public service, it's going to be a £20bn industry that is entirely foreign owned in the next 5 years. I think people need to start separating the public service aspect of what the BBC does from the commercial "ratings" aspect. The licence fee is never going to be enough for the BBC to do both, not in the long term. The fixed costs of the public service part of what they do is rising and eating up the licence fee income and basically can't be cut but the "ratings" bit is rising even faster and can be cut. So what we end up with is the BBC eventually going the way I'm saying anyway, with a husk of an organisation which does a few glitzy shows but is basically just churning out local news, radio and sports coverage that a lot of people don't care about anyway.
    It's a nettle that should have been grasped up to a decade ago. But the Tories have been more interested in degrading the organisation than developing it.
    (And, to be fair, the opposition haven't offered much in the way of constructive thought beyond 'save the BBC.)

    Another few years and it will be too late.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    MrEd said:

    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer said he wants Gary Neville to stand as a Labour MP after he joined the Labour Party and he would have him in his Shadow Cabinet

    https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1483033445295136768?s=20

    I wonder how lifelong labour activists on the candidates list and his shadow cabinet feel about that.

    What a ridiculous thing to say. He’s hardly proven as a political campaigner or a politician. He’s just another blue tick spouting crap on twitter for likes and retweets. People,left and right do it all the time.
    Agreed, Gary Neville was happy to not be a Labour member under Ed Miliband and Corbyn when Labour were losing. Hard working local Labour party activists and councillors were. Now Labour look like winning it seems he will be on the Labour candidate list as Starmer starts his version of Cameron's pre 2010 A list.

    Neville is just a glory hunter, much like fans of his old club, Manchester United in the late 1990s and 2000s
    Its a political party not a football team
    His actions point in that direction. He has been making increasingly political comments for months and it has been clear he is left-wing in his leanings. But he never thought to join the Labour Party under Starmer.

    Then, lo and behold, literally one or two weeks into when the polls turn decisively against the Govt and a Labour Govt looks more likely post the next GE, he declares he is joining Labour and then there is the talk of him becoming a MP.

    He has probably looked at Rashford and thought "he's made a lot of money by pushing his causes, what's my equivalent?" He obviously can't do the adverts side because who is going to hire a middle-aged white man to push a message of inclusion and diversity. Plus he's got his money already and is not at the same stage of his career. Politics is the next best thing.
    Could this be jaundiced drivel masquerading as bracing 'man of the world' wisdom?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    This site is being shamefully dead catted, 4 threads I think now off topicing about licence fees.

    PENNY MORDAUNT is the topic du jour

    #johnsonout
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    I don't see why it shouldn't become a smaller, more focused entity. There is no divine right to have a state broadcaster. Its news would be worth perhaps £4.99/month of anyone's money.
    The issue is that you're still thinking in the same outmoded way that the BBC is. A £4.99/m service would be competing with Sky News which is free and GB News which is also free. Are we really saying that people will pay up £4.99 on their Sky bill just to get BBC News? I find that extremely unlikely.

    The channels are going the way of the dodo, the TV is primarily becoming the household's main streaming device after years of mobiles and tablets eating into its share. TVs getting bigger is a huge part of this and again, the modern TV watcher with a 55" or 65" one wants content that will wow them and they are willing to pay £12 per month to Netflix to get it. The reality where the BBC is still bound to produce news or sports coverage on a commercial basis doesn't exist, there's just no money in it without live sport.

    The public service element can be stripped back to bare essentials and funded from general taxation, the commercial parts should be able to properly use commercial avenues to compete.
    Not against this in theory, but some reservations:

    * News at Six is still regularly in the 10 most-watched live broadcasts. It's a mistake to think that people no longer bother. By contrast, Sky, GBTV etc have small audiences.
    * How confident are we that the part covered by general taxation (presumably news, Panomara etc.) would not be stripped back if it was perceived as being critical? Even if the government was utterly scrupulous, might it not have a chilling effect?
    * Just personally, I think BBC programming is vastly superior to the overwhelming majority of stuff on Sky. I'm not sure why - perhaps they just cater for my old-fashioned taste. But I'd worry that commercialing would lead them into the same (IMO) pit of crapness.

    Declasration of interest - I sub to Netflix at £5.99, and watch their stuff occasionally. Their range is generally downmarket too, though that doesn't mean I don't enjoy it.
    As I've suggested, I'd split the BBC into two, one which is taxpayer funded out of general taxation and covers news, some sports, local news, local radio and a few other bits and bobs which aren't commercially viable. BBC News gets high ratings by virtue of its channel position, if you stuck GB News in at the number 1 slot for that 30 mins it would also get very high ratings and I'm also not proposing to change that BBC Public Service gets the first channel slot, BBC Commercial gets slot 2 for as long as it wants it.

    As for your personal tastes, that's fine but at the same time I'd be pretty sure that what you're watching on the BBC isn't in fact made by them, they just licence the UK broadcasting rights. Line of Duty is the one that people get really confused by, it's made by ITV, so was The Bodyguard, The Fall was a subsidiary of EndemolShine. It's actually very rare for any high end BBC show to actually be made in house these days. The Bake Off was the one where people actually discovered it. A programme that the whole nation associated with the BBC was actually made by some outside company that wasn't the BBC.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Scottish Covid Numbers for Today

    6,221 Cases
    Only 2300 are PCR tests.

    OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT FIGURES are going to very rapidly show Scotland with zero covid at this rate.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    My final comment on this increasingly boring subject: I'd leave the Beeb as it is but find it from general taxation and hypothecate its funding. No point faffing around with a licence fee which is a) regressive and b) harder to enforce.

    I may have answered differently had the woeful Laura K decided to stick around.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    MaxPB said:


    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.

    I must confess I'm fairly agnostic about all of this.

    I do detect a hint of political "revenge" from many on the Right (the BBC has never been "one of us") but to be fair the Left also feels habitually wronged by the Beeb and part of me thinks if you are annoying both sides you're doing a good job.

    I presume the problem is the enforced annual subscription known as the licence fee. Unfortunately, that looks a relic of a bygone age. Television is as much a commodity as anything else. You can have as much or as little tv as you want or are willing to pay for.

    Perhaps we should treat television like the Health Service - basically free at point of viewing but with a few extra channels available (call it BUPA-vision) for those who want to pay. As long as we have a basic entitlement of entertainment, education and information available to all free of charge, those who want the frills or thills of Netflix or Racing TV and the like can pay.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Where social science academics sit on the left-right continuum
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1483035105098616832?s=20
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    Including funding out of general taxation? Are they strongly opposed to that?
    I'd support funding from general taxation I think - we can't have a system when some pay and some don't and get away with it. If general taxation - the big salaries would have to be capped.
    Yep, end of all that. So that's another tick.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,747
    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:
    That's interesting - they were trailing £860m expected. Still a nice wedge, however, and a welcome further boost for offshore wind.
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/24/scottish-seabed-windfarm-auction-set-to-bring-in-860m

    Time to review the Barnett Formula :smile:
    They steal it all anyway , we will get piss all out of it
    Nope, it's Scotland's money to do with as it wishes

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2019/1/contents
    Wonder what's left that can be handed out for free, now that bicycles, baby-boxes, tuition fees, prescriptions, etc, are all available at no cost (at least, to the recipients). Hypodermics, perhaps?
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,337

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    The thing is the BBC have already basically set this structure up with BBC Studios and UKTV....its just they don't like to shout about it, in case somebody might suggest your approach...

    Most people I talk to have no idea that UKTV is 100% owned by the BBC, many don't even have a clue the BBC have any ownership of the likes of Dave.

    And then you have the opposite, some things branded BBC aren't BBC at all. BBC Good Food isn't the BBC.
    I knew the BBC had a stake in UKTV but didn’t realise it was wholly one owned by the BBC. It explains why they premiere some new stuff on the channel.
    The BBC have a long history of this sort of thing e.g. they bought the Lonely Planet publisher.

    That's all fine, but it makes a mockery of well we couldn't possibly run any ads or be involved in commercial activities, it would compromise our integrity.
    BBC Good Food is another prime example

    When the BBC was thinking of axing it everyone said OH no, how can they do that, these evil Tories where will they stop.......

    Until it was pointed out that BBC Good Food was handed out "free" (actually not free, of course, but funded by almost every taxpayer in the land whether we like it or not) AND meanwhile, because it was "free" BBC Good Food was driving paid-for cooking magazines out of business, so seriously damaging the ecosystem and destroying journalistic jobs

    It is bollocks like this that needs to be sorted FIRST
    Yes that's a good example where the BBC eat others lunch....so they have in the past hollowed out any competition by getting into sectors they really shouldn't be in.

    The problem now of course that model is changing itself. YouTube allows people to do global cooking and it very popular. So the BBC have in the past put a load of other people out of business, now they are continuing to ask for money to fund this vast empire for "public good", when I can go on YouTube and find everybody from Gordon Ramsey to a bloke from Weston Super Mare showing me how to cook recipes. There is no need for BBC to be doing free recipes.
    BBC Good Food magazine/website is owned by Immediate Media and has a licence to use the BBC brand from BBC Worldwide.

    That might represent a blurred line about the use of the brand.. but it isn't (nor I think has it ever been) subsidised from the licence fee.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited January 2022
    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:


    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.

    I must confess I'm fairly agnostic about all of this.

    I do detect a hint of political "revenge" from many on the Right (the BBC has never been "one of us") but to be fair the Left also feels habitually wronged by the Beeb and part of me thinks if you are annoying both sides you're doing a good job.

    I presume the problem is the enforced annual subscription known as the licence fee. Unfortunately, that looks a relic of a bygone age. Television is as much a commodity as anything else. You can have as much or as little tv as you want or are willing to pay for.

    Perhaps we should treat television like the Health Service - basically free at point of viewing but with a few extra channels available (call it BUPA-vision) for those who want to pay. As long as we have a basic entitlement of entertainment, education and information available to all free of charge, those who want the frills or thills of Netflix or Racing TV and the like can pay.
    The crux of the problem I keep coming back to, the licence fee itself is totally unenforceable in this modern age. It is only total idiots who get caught watching tv without, they can't check anything, and Capita have no real powers. This idea of connecting a licence to a physical property that receives a signal is totally outdated.

    And that before you get onto the totally outdated idea that I have to buy one even if I don't want to watch any of the BBC output rather the 100s of other channels, but on the flipside I don't need one to watch all non-live "tv" except iPlayer.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    I don't see why it shouldn't become a smaller, more focused entity. There is no divine right to have a state broadcaster. Its news would be worth perhaps £4.99/month of anyone's money.
    The issue is that you're still thinking in the same outmoded way that the BBC is. A £4.99/m service would be competing with Sky News which is free and GB News which is also free. Are we really saying that people will pay up £4.99 on their Sky bill just to get BBC News? I find that extremely unlikely.

    The channels are going the way of the dodo, the TV is primarily becoming the household's main streaming device after years of mobiles and tablets eating into its share. TVs getting bigger is a huge part of this and again, the modern TV watcher with a 55" or 65" one wants content that will wow them and they are willing to pay £12 per month to Netflix to get it. The reality where the BBC is still bound to produce news or sports coverage on a commercial basis doesn't exist, there's just no money in it without live sport.

    The public service element can be stripped back to bare essentials and funded from general taxation, the commercial parts should be able to properly use commercial avenues to compete.
    Not against this in theory, but some reservations:

    * News at Six is still regularly in the 10 most-watched live broadcasts. It's a mistake to think that people no longer bother. By contrast, Sky, GBTV etc have small audiences.
    * How confident are we that the part covered by general taxation (presumably news, Panomara etc.) would not be stripped back if it was perceived as being critical? Even if the government was utterly scrupulous, might it not have a chilling effect?
    * Just personally, I think BBC programming is vastly superior to the overwhelming majority of stuff on Sky. I'm not sure why - perhaps they just cater for my old-fashioned taste. But I'd worry that commercialing would lead them into the same (IMO) pit of crapness.

    Declasration of interest - I sub to Netflix at £5.99, and watch their stuff occasionally. Their range is generally downmarket too, though that doesn't mean I don't enjoy it.
    I am buggered if I can tell any qualitative difference between the BBC and Sky in terms of "crapness". They are equally crap, in general, but Sky has more choice and can sometimes be great

    Tonight on BBC one: The One Show, Britain's Killer Roads, Eastenders, Kelvin's Big Farming Adventure, Who Do You Think You Are, News

    So: mediocre magazine pap, ludicrous "documentary", really awful badly acted soap opera, mad shit trying to copy Jeremy Clarkson, tired formulaic personal history, news

    ie Not a single thing here that I will ever ever watch, apart from maybe the News but only IF there is a major national/international news story, but even then I would watch it on the BBC 24 News Channel immediately, or Sky News, or Fox, or CNN, or Al Jazeera, or wherever, I won't "wait for News at Ten"

    Sky no longer has a premium channel like BBC One, it is split into multiple channels you can stream, and I can find sad old repeats, more old repeats, some good repeats, but also Sky Comedy, Sky Nature, Sky History, Sky Arts, with a billion programmes of which I could certainly tolerate a couple of dozen

    This is the thing. It is only old or incurious people who still "tune into BBC One" and settle down to watch it. Most people just don't do that anymore. I can't remember the last time I turned on the TV and "selected BBC One". It is not how I consume TV any more, and no one under 40 even understands the idea of channel selection
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Penny Mordaunt has emerged as a dark horse candidate to succeed Boris Johnson, @politicshome is told

    The trade minister is backed by multiple Tories elected in 2019 amid a belief she can unify the party

    An ally says she's "focused on doing her job"...

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/penny-mordaunt-emerges-as-dark-horse-candidate-to-succeed-boris-johnson

    An impressively tough backstory, Ms Mordaunt

    Certainly not stockbrokers and Eton


    "Mordaunt was born on 4 March 1973 in Torquay, Devon. The daughter of a former paratrooper, one of twins, she was named after the Arethusa-class cruiser HMS Penelope.[10] Her father, John Mordaunt, born at Hilsea Barracks, served in the Parachute Regiment before retraining as a teacher. Mordaunt has two brothers: James and a younger brother, Edward.[11]... Mordaunt was educated at Oaklands Roman Catholic Academy School [state, co-ed]

    "When Mordaunt was 15 her mother died of breast cancer. Mordaunt's twin brother left school, so she became Edward's prime caregiver. The following year her father was diagnosed with cancer, from which he recovered. To pay her way through sixth-form college, Mordaunt became a magician's assistant to Portsmouth magician Will Ayling, who was once president of The Magic Circle.[15]"

    Wiki
    Mmm... Certainly tough compared with Johnson, Sunak, Rees-Mogg, and most of the other Tory patricians, but more like the experience of many from the summary above. Hard for any child to lose a parent so young. Not sure about the "paying her way through sixth-form college" - no fees at that time.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    HYUFD said:

    Where social science academics sit on the left-right continuum
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1483035105098616832?s=20

    Interesting and not surprising, but rather puzzled about the 1% at the extreme right.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,747
    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:


    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.

    I must confess I'm fairly agnostic about all of this.

    I do detect a hint of political "revenge" from many on the Right (the BBC has never been "one of us") but to be fair the Left also feels habitually wronged by the Beeb and part of me thinks if you are annoying both sides you're doing a good job.

    I presume the problem is the enforced annual subscription known as the licence fee. Unfortunately, that looks a relic of a bygone age. Television is as much a commodity as anything else. You can have as much or as little tv as you want or are willing to pay for.

    Perhaps we should treat television like the Health Service - basically free at point of viewing but with a few extra channels available (call it BUPA-vision) for those who want to pay. As long as we have a basic entitlement of entertainment, education and information available to all free of charge, those who want the frills or thills of Netflix or Racing TV and the like can pay.
    There is a legitimate "conservative" argument for the BBC. Great, national, unifying institution. Also important for "soft" power projection given its unimpeachable reputation for journalistic integrity. And, somehow, intrinsically, British. Whether that's an argument for the licence fee is moot, but care for its future is important. It's a significant national asset.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited January 2022

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    The thing is the BBC have already basically set this structure up with BBC Studios and UKTV....its just they don't like to shout about it, in case somebody might suggest your approach...

    Most people I talk to have no idea that UKTV is 100% owned by the BBC, many don't even have a clue the BBC have any ownership of the likes of Dave.

    And then you have the opposite, some things branded BBC aren't BBC at all. BBC Good Food isn't the BBC.
    I knew the BBC had a stake in UKTV but didn’t realise it was wholly one owned by the BBC. It explains why they premiere some new stuff on the channel.
    The BBC have a long history of this sort of thing e.g. they bought the Lonely Planet publisher.

    That's all fine, but it makes a mockery of well we couldn't possibly run any ads or be involved in commercial activities, it would compromise our integrity.
    BBC Good Food is another prime example

    When the BBC was thinking of axing it everyone said OH no, how can they do that, these evil Tories where will they stop.......

    Until it was pointed out that BBC Good Food was handed out "free" (actually not free, of course, but funded by almost every taxpayer in the land whether we like it or not) AND meanwhile, because it was "free" BBC Good Food was driving paid-for cooking magazines out of business, so seriously damaging the ecosystem and destroying journalistic jobs

    It is bollocks like this that needs to be sorted FIRST
    Yes that's a good example where the BBC eat others lunch....so they have in the past hollowed out any competition by getting into sectors they really shouldn't be in.

    The problem now of course that model is changing itself. YouTube allows people to do global cooking and it very popular. So the BBC have in the past put a load of other people out of business, now they are continuing to ask for money to fund this vast empire for "public good", when I can go on YouTube and find everybody from Gordon Ramsey to a bloke from Weston Super Mare showing me how to cook recipes. There is no need for BBC to be doing free recipes.
    BBC Good Food magazine/website is owned by Immediate Media and has a licence to use the BBC brand from BBC Worldwide.

    That might represent a blurred line about the use of the brand.. but it isn't (nor I think has it ever been) subsidised from the licence fee.
    No, you are confusing two things. BBC Good Food and BBC Food....

    I mentioned this exact fact down thread....people think BBC Good Food is the BBC, it isn't. At one point it was a BBC worldwide owned operations, but they sold it....

    However, https://www.bbc.co.uk/food is the BBC.

    So they eat other lunch, then spun off the BBC Good Food brand. But they also eat try to eat others lunch with the BBC website food.

    The problem is that both are getting eaten by the likes of YouTube.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    The thing is the BBC have already basically set this structure up with BBC Studios and UKTV....its just they don't like to shout about it, in case somebody might suggest your approach...

    Most people I talk to have no idea that UKTV is 100% owned by the BBC, many don't even have a clue the BBC have any ownership of the likes of Dave.

    And then you have the opposite, some things branded BBC aren't BBC at all. BBC Good Food isn't the BBC.
    I knew the BBC had a stake in UKTV but didn’t realise it was wholly one owned by the BBC. It explains why they premiere some new stuff on the channel.
    The BBC have a long history of this sort of thing e.g. they bought the Lonely Planet publisher.

    That's all fine, but it makes a mockery of well we couldn't possibly run any ads or be involved in commercial activities, it would compromise our integrity.
    BBC Good Food is another prime example

    When the BBC was thinking of axing it everyone said OH no, how can they do that, these evil Tories where will they stop.......

    Until it was pointed out that BBC Good Food was handed out "free" (actually not free, of course, but funded by almost every taxpayer in the land whether we like it or not) AND meanwhile, because it was "free" BBC Good Food was driving paid-for cooking magazines out of business, so seriously damaging the ecosystem and destroying journalistic jobs

    It is bollocks like this that needs to be sorted FIRST
    Yes that's a good example where the BBC eat others lunch....so they have in the past hollowed out any competition by getting into sectors they really shouldn't be in.

    The problem now of course that model is changing itself. YouTube allows people to do global cooking and it very popular. So the BBC have in the past put a load of other people out of business, now they are continuing to ask for money to fund this vast empire for "public good", when I can go on YouTube and find everybody from Gordon Ramsey to a bloke from Weston Super Mare showing me how to cook recipes. There is no need for BBC to be doing free recipes.
    BBC Good Food magazine/website is owned by Immediate Media and has a licence to use the BBC brand from BBC Worldwide.

    That might represent a blurred line about the use of the brand.. but it isn't (nor I think has it ever been) subsidised from the licence fee.
    But you can - or you could - just go on the BBC website and download any BBC Good Food recipe. That's the point

    So cooking magazines were fucked. Of course you could argue they were fucked anyway by free content on the internet, but the BBC happily accelerated that process

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    Declasration of interest - I sub to Netflix at £5.99, and watch their stuff occasionally. Their range is generally downmarket too, though that doesn't mean I don't enjoy it.

    LOL - man of the people Nick Palmer speaks.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    edited January 2022

    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:
    That's interesting - they were trailing £860m expected. Still a nice wedge, however, and a welcome further boost for offshore wind.
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/24/scottish-seabed-windfarm-auction-set-to-bring-in-860m

    Time to review the Barnett Formula :smile:
    They steal it all anyway , we will get piss all out of it
    Nope, it's Scotland's money to do with as it wishes

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2019/1/contents
    Wonder what's left that can be handed out for free, now that bicycles, baby-boxes, tuition fees, prescriptions, etc, are all available at no cost (at least, to the recipients). Hypodermics, perhaps?
    Farooq said:

    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:
    That's interesting - they were trailing £860m expected. Still a nice wedge, however, and a welcome further boost for offshore wind.
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/24/scottish-seabed-windfarm-auction-set-to-bring-in-860m

    Time to review the Barnett Formula :smile:
    They steal it all anyway , we will get piss all out of it
    Nope, it's Scotland's money to do with as it wishes

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2019/1/contents
    Wonder what's left that can be handed out for free, now that bicycles, baby-boxes, tuition fees, prescriptions, etc, are all available at no cost (at least, to the recipients). Hypodermics, perhaps?
    My guess is that diabetes sufferers already avail themselves of this method of insulin delivery, yes.
    Not for druggies, who get oral methadone. Though not allowing them to buy the things was how an Edinburgh police chief started the HIV epidemic in that city in the Trainspotting 1 era. One could get them from a little medical supplies shop in the Pubic Triangle until boss polis leant on the shop, AIUI.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Where social science academics sit on the left-right continuum
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1483035105098616832?s=20

    Interesting and not surprising, but rather puzzled about the 1% at the extreme right.
    Perhaps it’s Jordan Peterson or Brett Weinstein, saying it for effect.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Penny Mordaunt has emerged as a dark horse candidate to succeed Boris Johnson, @politicshome is told

    The trade minister is backed by multiple Tories elected in 2019 amid a belief she can unify the party

    An ally says she's "focused on doing her job"...

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/penny-mordaunt-emerges-as-dark-horse-candidate-to-succeed-boris-johnson

    An impressively tough backstory, Ms Mordaunt

    Certainly not stockbrokers and Eton


    "Mordaunt was born on 4 March 1973 in Torquay, Devon. The daughter of a former paratrooper, one of twins, she was named after the Arethusa-class cruiser HMS Penelope.[10] Her father, John Mordaunt, born at Hilsea Barracks, served in the Parachute Regiment before retraining as a teacher. Mordaunt has two brothers: James and a younger brother, Edward.[11]... Mordaunt was educated at Oaklands Roman Catholic Academy School [state, co-ed]

    "When Mordaunt was 15 her mother died of breast cancer. Mordaunt's twin brother left school, so she became Edward's prime caregiver. The following year her father was diagnosed with cancer, from which he recovered. To pay her way through sixth-form college, Mordaunt became a magician's assistant to Portsmouth magician Will Ayling, who was once president of The Magic Circle.[15]"

    Wiki
    Mmm... Certainly tough compared with Johnson, Sunak, Rees-Mogg, and most of the other Tory patricians, but more like the experience of many from the summary above. Hard for any child to lose a parent so young. Not sure about the "paying her way through sixth-form college" - no fees at that time.
    Be fantastic if someone neutralised Truss's "I'm a woman, remind you of anyone?" shtick.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    On the tennis betting, so as expected Djoko bets were voided by betfair exchange and a new market formed without him. Therefore I also expected the equivalent of a Rule 4 deduction on bets matched on other players prior to the withdrawal. A chunky one too since the 'horse' pulled out was a short price. But it's not the case. No adjustment was made. Great for me as a backer - of Zverev and Sinner if you're interested - but I'd feel rather pissed off if I had lay bets.

    I've been left with a tenner on Nadal at 14 (now 7).
    A gift. And my Sinner is 30 instead of 60.
    So in fact the whole premise of your first point was wrong. The prices did indeed adjust.
    But no adjustment to the price of matched bets on other players prior to Djoko's withdrawal. This is the point I'm making.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    edited January 2022
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    I don't see why it shouldn't become a smaller, more focused entity. There is no divine right to have a state broadcaster. Its news would be worth perhaps £4.99/month of anyone's money.
    The issue is that you're still thinking in the same outmoded way that the BBC is. A £4.99/m service would be competing with Sky News which is free and GB News which is also free. Are we really saying that people will pay up £4.99 on their Sky bill just to get BBC News? I find that extremely unlikely.

    The channels are going the way of the dodo, the TV is primarily becoming the household's main streaming device after years of mobiles and tablets eating into its share. TVs getting bigger is a huge part of this and again, the modern TV watcher with a 55" or 65" one wants content that will wow them and they are willing to pay £12 per month to Netflix to get it. The reality where the BBC is still bound to produce news or sports coverage on a commercial basis doesn't exist, there's just no money in it without live sport.

    The public service element can be stripped back to bare essentials and funded from general taxation, the commercial parts should be able to properly use commercial avenues to compete.
    Not against this in theory, but some reservations:

    * News at Six is still regularly in the 10 most-watched live broadcasts. It's a mistake to think that people no longer bother. By contrast, Sky, GBTV etc have small audiences.
    * How confident are we that the part covered by general taxation (presumably news, Panomara etc.) would not be stripped back if it was perceived as being critical? Even if the government was utterly scrupulous, might it not have a chilling effect?
    * Just personally, I think BBC programming is vastly superior to the overwhelming majority of stuff on Sky. I'm not sure why - perhaps they just cater for my old-fashioned taste. But I'd worry that commercialing would lead them into the same (IMO) pit of crapness.

    Declasration of interest - I sub to Netflix at £5.99, and watch their stuff occasionally. Their range is generally downmarket too, though that doesn't mean I don't enjoy it.
    I am buggered if I can tell any qualitative difference between the BBC and Sky in terms of "crapness". They are equally crap, in general, but Sky has more choice and can sometimes be great

    Tonight on BBC one: The One Show, Britain's Killer Roads, Eastenders, Kelvin's Big Farming Adventure, Who Do You Think You Are, News

    So: mediocre magazine pap, ludicrous "documentary", really awful badly acted soap opera, mad shit trying to copy Jeremy Clarkson, tired formulaic personal history, news

    ie Not a single thing here that I will ever ever watch, apart from maybe the News but only IF there is a major national/international news story, but even then I would watch it on the BBC 24 News Channel immediately, or Sky News, or Fox, or CNN, or Al Jazeera, or wherever, I won't "wait for News at Ten"

    Sky no longer has a premium channel like BBC One, it is split into multiple channels you can stream, and I can find sad old repeats, more old repeats, some good repeats, but also Sky Comedy, Sky Nature, Sky History, Sky Arts, with a billion programmes of which I could certainly tolerate a couple of dozen

    This is the thing. It is only old or incurious people who still "tune into BBC One" and settle down to watch it. Most people just don't do that anymore. I can't remember the last time I turned on the TV and "selected BBC One". It is not how I consume TV any more, and no one under 40 even understands the idea of channel selection
    Agree generally.
    But Who do you Think you are? Is one of my guilty pleasures.
    At its best it is random social history. Often on topics no one would ever commission a programme about.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    TOPPING said:

    Declasration of interest - I sub to Netflix at £5.99, and watch their stuff occasionally. Their range is generally downmarket too, though that doesn't mean I don't enjoy it.

    LOL - man of the people Nick Palmer speaks.
    I bet Nick Palmer watches BBC about eight times a year. The News, and maybe the odd Nature documentary

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    What determines your class? A third (33 per cent) responded that the greatest indicator of someone’s class in the UK is their income level, while 23 per cent think it is their inherited wealth, 13 per cent their education, and 12 per cent their profession (19 per cent didn’t know).
    https://twitter.com/NewStatesman/status/1483076164231041029?s=20
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:


    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.

    I must confess I'm fairly agnostic about all of this.

    I do detect a hint of political "revenge" from many on the Right (the BBC has never been "one of us") but to be fair the Left also feels habitually wronged by the Beeb and part of me thinks if you are annoying both sides you're doing a good job.

    I presume the problem is the enforced annual subscription known as the licence fee. Unfortunately, that looks a relic of a bygone age. Television is as much a commodity as anything else. You can have as much or as little tv as you want or are willing to pay for.

    Perhaps we should treat television like the Health Service - basically free at point of viewing but with a few extra channels available (call it BUPA-vision) for those who want to pay. As long as we have a basic entitlement of entertainment, education and information available to all free of charge, those who want the frills or thills of Netflix or Racing TV and the like can pay.
    That is more or less what Max is suggesting.

    I'd differ from him in that I'd retain a bit more of programming/commissioning within the public service rump. With a brief to develop only new UK talent/productions.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    "There are big, big issues of trust and integrity at stake now".

    Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon calls on the PM to "resign" over the Downing St parties, adding that he has "not been honest and truthful".

    https://news.sky.com/

    📺 Sky 501, Virgin 602, Freeview 233
    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1483023954377953282/video/1

    BoZo clings on and opposition politicians call him a liar in every TV interview until he does go

    It’s open season.

    Felling lazy, stupid, dishevelled water-buffalo might not be the prettiest sport, but hey, it’s tremendous fun.
    Bloody dangerous quarry, second only to Cape buffalo. Their skulls are so thick they are effectively bullet proof, and if they charge you that's pretty much the only available target.
    I once went on a safari drive/walk with a Zimbo guide whose partner was killed by a Cape buffalo the year before

    It turned out the buffalo bore a grudge. The guy who died had aimed a shot at the buffalo, for some reason, a year or two before THAT. The buffalo remembered, and as soon as he saw the man again, he charged

    Not only are they hard to kill, they are cantankerous, resentful and they nurture a grievance for aeons. Bit like some of the older chaps on here
    I resemble that remark!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    Taz said:

    Incidentally, I fear the failure to make good decisions might prove fatal for the BBC, if the licence fee ends and their attempted alternative is a catastrophe.

    That's why talk of the licence fee ending (from the Government) is stupid until they and/or the BBC have conceived of a well-considered alternative.

    However, given the political class' answer to Scottish nationalism has seen the union come within a whisker of being destroyed at the ballot box I am not confident such a thing will happen.

    When it has previously been raised with the BBC they have never been willing to consider any alternative though. Other means of extra funding but the license fee had to stay.
    An Audiovisual Tax is probably the best approach because it can be graduated according to income and is already used elsewhere. Yes, it means another tax but, given the licence fee is regressive, there is a good argument for it.
    Split off BBC Public Service and BBC Commercial Limited. The former can be funded out of general taxation and covers radio, local news and sports coverage that isn't football, cricket or rugby. BBC Commercial becomes a the primary owner of all BBC content ever produced and all of the current relationships and is floated on the LSE with the state holding a parliamentary bound golden share (as in, it would need an act of parliament to sell it) to prevent a foreign takeover. BBC Commercial Limited becomes a subscription and advertising funded company, it also gives up BBC1 to the public service channel which doesn't have adverts and can show select BBC Commercial shows for a period of 10 years for a fixed fee (shit like EastEnders that no one would pay to watch but is still fairly popular). BBC Commercial Limited keeps all of the funds from the IPO and uses it to buyout scads of UK production companies it's already partnered with and from then on it reserves global rights to all of its shows to put on a globally facing streaming service, all existing rights that have been sold piecemeal are allowed to expire so 4-6 years from now iPlayer is able to have a standard offering of all BBC content like Disney+ across the whole world.

    That's how I would restructure the BBC. One commercial channel, pushing everyone to streaming as much as possible and eventually even getting rid of the one broadcast channel.
    Split it up into modules:

    News & traffic
    Weather
    Sport
    Childrens
    Light Entertainment & drama
    Natural History
    Radio
    Arts
    etc

    And charge a monthly sub per module - a pick and mix.
    No, that's never going to work. It needs to be a catch all service like Netflix. Local news/weather/sport/radio can be funded out of general taxation. Everything should be done commercially and not limited by the licence fee.

    The BBC needs to be able to get to £10bn in revenue in 5 years time, that's a 2.5x per year increase from today. The licence fee or keeping its current structure with some modular basis won't work. If it can't do that it becomes a small inwardly facing producer of EastEnders and Strictly Come Dancing.
    I don't see why it shouldn't become a smaller, more focused entity. There is no divine right to have a state broadcaster. Its news would be worth perhaps £4.99/month of anyone's money.
    The issue is that you're still thinking in the same outmoded way that the BBC is. A £4.99/m service would be competing with Sky News which is free and GB News which is also free. Are we really saying that people will pay up £4.99 on their Sky bill just to get BBC News? I find that extremely unlikely.

    The channels are going the way of the dodo, the TV is primarily becoming the household's main streaming device after years of mobiles and tablets eating into its share. TVs getting bigger is a huge part of this and again, the modern TV watcher with a 55" or 65" one wants content that will wow them and they are willing to pay £12 per month to Netflix to get it. The reality where the BBC is still bound to produce news or sports coverage on a commercial basis doesn't exist, there's just no money in it without live sport.

    The public service element can be stripped back to bare essentials and funded from general taxation, the commercial parts should be able to properly use commercial avenues to compete.
    Hmm interesting. Sky and GBN both being free (but of course the former subsidised by Sky subscriptions). Is the reach of those really comparable? I'm not sure there is a Sky Cambridgeshire, for example. There would imo be plenty of people happy to pay a fiver a month for a trusted non-aligned news broadcaster. And how is Sky radio doing these days.
    Sky News is free on Freeview and YouTube, I'm not sure about GBN as I've never watched it or tried to.

    I think you're missing my point, there's no money in local news or local radio, it's a market that is completely propped up by the licence fee payer and is why the commercial aspects of BBC productions are utterly incapable of competing with the firepower that Netflix, Sony or Disney have got. They can't expand their revenue lines easily, they have got very high fixed costs for what is essentially perpetually loss making TV and radio production and they also have a public which wants to be wowed by production quality that we see in The Crown or The Witcher.
    This totally misunderstands how BBC produces content NOW. Well over half of network hours are externally produced and under a quarter are BBC public service productions (the balance is "contestable" content which could be externally produced but where the work is won by BBC Studios as the commercial arm).
    I absolutely understand that, it's why I'm suggesting the BBC be split. The externally produced shows are just another way of saying licence fee payer money gets sent to America or Japan right now. Why not allow the BBC to be commercially viable, raise billions of pounds in an IPO and bring production of shows in-house and then sell subscriptions globally to those great shows?

    Sony offered The Crown to the BBC and ITV, Netflix completely blew them both out of the water. How does the BBC compete with that? At least ITV has a pretty huge production arm which is now relies on for reasonably good shows.

    I want the BBC to be successful, I want it to be our globally facing, soft power generating company that is able to fund UK TV for the next 30 years and keep it UK owned. I can't see how it does that within the bounds of the licence fee.
This discussion has been closed.