I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
your sentiment may be good in theory...but i dont think its wise to inflame tensions in the ethnic communities....these are good people just like you
Exactly how is it inflaming tensions when the majority of ethnic populations have taken the vaccine?
Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
So being Jewish makes Mandelson a "friend" of Epstein? Dear God thats awful even for you.
There are photos of Mandelson and Epstein together, but I don't think there's any indication that Mandelson actually stayed with Epstein or went to one of his parties. Indeed, there don't seem to be any suggestions that I'm aware of that there were young boys at these parties.
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
your sentiment may be good in theory...but i dont think its wise to inflame tensions in the ethnic communities....these are good people just like you
Exactly how is it inflaming tensions when the majority of ethnic populations have taken the vaccine?
because a significantly lower proportion of our ethnic communities have taken the vaccine...hence the discrimination...its quite simple
The complaint in the action settled by the 2009 agreement
This is really interesting: the matters complained of are all in the nature of trafficking, procuring, crossing state lines, making pornographic images etc. Anyone who was merely an end user was NOT a "potential defendant" unless the claim were amended; but if you have to read the release as covering "potential defendant including to an amended claim" you are broadening it to a ludicrous extent to cover anyone who had ever wronged the plaintiff in any way, ever.
Judging from their performance in his police interviews, where they objected to every single police question on the most ludicrous imaginable grounds, that would be about par for the course from his lawyers.
Is this available online?
Bear in mind they are playing a fancy game whose rules we do not know. They may be constrained to be ludicrous.
The complaint in the action settled by the 2009 agreement
This is really interesting: the matters complained of are all in the nature of trafficking, procuring, crossing state lines, making pornographic images etc. Anyone who was merely an end user was NOT a "potential defendant" unless the claim were amended; but if you have to read the release as covering "potential defendant including to an amended claim" you are broadening it to a ludicrous extent to cover anyone who had ever wronged the plaintiff in any way, ever.
Judging from their performance in his police interviews, where they objected to every single police question on the most ludicrous imaginable grounds, that would be about par for the course from his lawyers.
Is this available online?
Bear in mind they are playing a fancy game whose rules we do not know. They may be constrained to be ludicrous.
The interviews? Excerpts are in the Netflix documentary on Epstein, at the start of each episode. They include things like 'objection. Harassing. Inappropriate tone.'
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
your sentiment may be good in theory...but i dont think its wise to inflame tensions in the ethnic communities....these are good people just like you
Exactly how is it inflaming tensions when the majority of ethnic populations have taken the vaccine?
because a significantly lower proportion of our ethnic communities have taken the vaccine...hence the discrimination...its quite simple
I’m a bit thick, how is it discrimination if people choose not to have a free vaccine and then suffer the consquences?
Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
Hmmm. I don't think anyone has ever accused Mandelson of paedophilia.
Apparently he is guilty of being Jewish. .
In your tiny little warped mind.
Petey was a close friend of Epstein nothing more as far as we no so far
I think that's stretching it: you can find a pictures of the two of them in a shop together from 2005, and it is assumed they were there together. Likewise I believe there is evidence of at least one phone call.
Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
Hmmm. I don't think anyone has ever accused Mandelson of paedophilia.
Apparently he is guilty of being Jewish. .
In your tiny little warped mind.
Petey was a close friend of Epstein nothing more as far as we no so far
Stephen bloody Hawking was a friend of Epstein, you banana, and the reason why we know Jeremy definitely wasn't is not something you really want to be putting front and centre.
Apropos of nothing, what’s happened to @CorrectHorseBattery? Annoying as I find him, this place isn’t quite the same without his endless postings of the same thing, over and over, and then denying it.
I must confess I've had two or three glimpses down the rabbit hole that is QAnon and similar conspiracy theorists.
Apparently, the Great Global Currency Reset happened on Saturday - probably all those punters following my selections.
It's the way unrelated events such as forest fires in Colorado and the national bank closure in Iraq are all part of some huge "dark state" thing to bring about something .
As I've said before, I understand the primal desire to make order out of chaos but it's much easier to accept the world is chaotic and go from there.
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
your sentiment may be good in theory...but i dont think its wise to inflame tensions in the ethnic communities....these are good people just like you
Exactly how is it inflaming tensions when the majority of ethnic populations have taken the vaccine?
because a significantly lower proportion of our ethnic communities have taken the vaccine...hence the discrimination...its quite simple
I’m a bit thick, how is it discrimination if people choose not to have a free vaccine and then suffer the consquences?
because you fail to take account of the history especially of the black community with regards to vaccines and the reasons for their suspicions....try and be more considerate to these communities and please dont other them
Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
Hmmm. I don't think anyone has ever accused Mandelson of paedophilia.
Apparently he is guilty of being Jewish. .
In your tiny little warped mind.
Petey was a close friend of Epstein nothing more as far as we no so far
I think that's stretching it: you can find a pictures of the two of them in a shop together from 2005, and it is assumed they were there together. Likewise I believe there is evidence of at least one phone call.
But that's a long way way from "close friend".
Epstein called him Petey
I assume you would also think he wasnt a close friend of Ms Maxwell?
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
I think you'll find that we are all of "ethnic extraction". Though I agree with the sentiment of your comment.
Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
So being Jewish makes Mandelson a "friend" of Epstein? Dear God thats awful even for you.
I have a vague memory he was either on the private plane or may be just in the little black book. So an association but nothing worse (and given what I believe are his preferences, there isn’t much likelihood of worse having occurred)
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
Othering is a very bad thing
Better that than imposing new restrictions on the vaccinated which I would refuse to accept. At the moment however I think the current government rules are fine
"In the document, Ms Giuffre, also referred to by her unmarried name Roberts, agreed to "release, acquit, satisfy, and forever discharge" Epstein and "any other person or entity who could have been included as a potential defendant".
The settlement's wording says she discharges "potential defendants" from any US legal action, including damages claims dating "from the beginning of the world"."
Whatever the merits of this particular case, I have a distinct dislike of the US system of both plea bargaining and of 'deals'. I don't know if it exists in British law but it just seems wrong to me.
Remember that this is a civil action - in UK law the parties can always make a "deal" and agree to finish the case with an arrangement 'certified' (correct word?) by the Court.
In her previous activities afaik Giuffre has always been after compensation not convictions.
In UK Criminal Law the deals AIUI are normally a little subliminal and revolve around what you are charged with eg "plead guilty to a lesser offence", or the police offering a caution if they are not confident of a conviction.
I have to say that if that agreement was before a Scottish or English court this case would be over. Indeed, it should never have started.
Meaning, the court would chuck her out on the basis of the release? You are the successful practising lawyer, not me, but I hae me doots. You really, really can't tell what the scope of "any other person or entity who could have been included as a potential defendant" is without seeing the statement of claim, but if it says, say, people did stuff to me in Florida and the BVI, I don't see that it begins to cover stuff alleged to be done in NY or London.
Yes, it would be chucked out. Her whole story is how Epstein trafficked her and set her up to be used by Andrew. How on earth could it not be connected? If it wasn't for Epstein what on earth was she doing there? If it was of her own volition with no trafficking why on earth would she have a claim?
OK, but courts aren't going to be falling over themselves to interpret ambiguities in his favour. If the 2009 settled case says "stuff in florida" and the instant claim says "stuff in UK/NY" he has to say, in effect, yebbut actually I did stuff to her in Florida too. Attractive line of argument.,
No he doesn't. He simply needs to argue that this settlement was intended to cover all potential defendants which included "Royalty", allegedly.
OK. Let's see.
My view is simply how a UK court would construe such an agreement. I have no knowledge or expertise as to how an American court will address it but surely even if they let this proceed there is a nailed on appeal point?
don't really understand that. The US reckons it's a Common Law jurisdiction, so if as a Scots lawyer you think you can tell how a generic UK court would construe it, you should also be able to have a stab at US courts. It's about strict construction of the "anyone who could be a defendant," and privity of contract, I'd have thought.
US contract law is usually found in their Universal Commercial Contract provisions which are adopted to varying degrees by the various states and can be applied to contracts falling outwith its terms by the agreement of the parties. It is wrong to think that all common law jurisdictions interpret contracts the same way. Hence my hesitation.
Full text. I'd be astonished if it had incorporated Universal Commercial Contract provisions, and it doesn't. And if it had done, English common law would have recognised the incorporation just as US common law would have.
I repeat that I am not an American lawyer but my understanding is that it is commonplace for the UCC to be referred to as authority as to how contracts should be construed, whether it is incorporated or not. It is used as a textbook.
The question in our law would be whether the agreement was clearly intended to be in full settlement of the claimant's loss. If it was then she cannot make a claim against others. If it wasn't such a claim may be possible. Having looked at the full version of the agreement, and specifically the definition of second parties, it is possible that a court might construe "other defendants" narrowly so as to only include those potentially within the definition of second parties and it might be hard to argue that this included everyone for whom Epstein arranged sexual services. So, as you said, we shall have to see.
"In the document, Ms Giuffre, also referred to by her unmarried name Roberts, agreed to "release, acquit, satisfy, and forever discharge" Epstein and "any other person or entity who could have been included as a potential defendant".
The settlement's wording says she discharges "potential defendants" from any US legal action, including damages claims dating "from the beginning of the world"."
Whatever the merits of this particular case, I have a distinct dislike of the US system of both plea bargaining and of 'deals'. I don't know if it exists in British law but it just seems wrong to me.
Remember that this is a civil action - in UK law the parties can always make a "deal" and agree to finish the case with an arrangement 'certified' (correct word?) by the Court.
In her previous activities afaik Giuffre has always been after compensation not convictions.
In UK Criminal Law the deals AIUI are normally a little subliminal and revolve around what you are charged with eg "plead guilty to a lesser offence", or the police offering a caution if they are not confident of a conviction.
I have to say that if that agreement was before a Scottish or English court this case would be over. Indeed, it should never have started.
Meaning, the court would chuck her out on the basis of the release? You are the successful practising lawyer, not me, but I hae me doots. You really, really can't tell what the scope of "any other person or entity who could have been included as a potential defendant" is without seeing the statement of claim, but if it says, say, people did stuff to me in Florida and the BVI, I don't see that it begins to cover stuff alleged to be done in NY or London.
Yes, it would be chucked out. Her whole story is how Epstein trafficked her and set her up to be used by Andrew. How on earth could it not be connected? If it wasn't for Epstein what on earth was she doing there? If it was of her own volition with no trafficking why on earth would she have a claim?
OK, but courts aren't going to be falling over themselves to interpret ambiguities in his favour. If the 2009 settled case says "stuff in florida" and the instant claim says "stuff in UK/NY" he has to say, in effect, yebbut actually I did stuff to her in Florida too. Attractive line of argument.,
No he doesn't. He simply needs to argue that this settlement was intended to cover all potential defendants which included "Royalty", allegedly.
OK. Let's see.
My view is simply how a UK court would construe such an agreement. I have no knowledge or expertise as to how an American court will address it but surely even if they let this proceed there is a nailed on appeal point?
don't really understand that. The US reckons it's a Common Law jurisdiction, so if as a Scots lawyer you think you can tell how a generic UK court would construe it, you should also be able to have a stab at US courts. It's about strict construction of the "anyone who could be a defendant," and privity of contract, I'd have thought.
US contract law is usually found in their Universal Commercial Contract provisions which are adopted to varying degrees by the various states and can be applied to contracts falling outwith its terms by the agreement of the parties. It is wrong to think that all common law jurisdictions interpret contracts the same way. Hence my hesitation.
Full text. I'd be astonished if it had incorporated Universal Commercial Contract provisions, and it doesn't. And if it had done, English common law would have recognised the incorporation just as US common law would have.
I am probably being dumb here but my reading of that settlement is that it commits Giuffre to:
"HEREBY remise, release, acquit, satisfy, and forever discharge the said Second Parties and any other person or entity who could have been included as a potential defendant (“Other Potential Defendants”)"
Second parties are: "Jeffrey Epstein and his agent(s), attorney(s), predecessor(s), successor(s), heir(s), administrator(s), assign(s) and/or employee(s)" ..so not Andrew.
Could Andrew be another 'Potential Defendant' in the suit against Epstein? I don't see how, since this is about Epstein's actions and those who assisted Epstein in his sexual abuse and prostitution of Giuffre (two are mentioned in the original suit: Haley Robson and Sarah Kellen).
Was Andrew helping Epstein abuse Giuffre? I don't think anyone's suggesting that.
Was Andrew helping Epstein prostitute Giuffre? I think that's a stretch too - it would surely be akin to suggesting the buyer of a fake painting is aiding the faker.
So my non-lawyerly reading of the Giuffre - Epstein settlement is that it doesn't let Andrew off the hook.
Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
Hmmm. I don't think anyone has ever accused Mandelson of paedophilia.
Apparently he is guilty of being Jewish. .
In your tiny little warped mind.
Petey was a close friend of Epstein nothing more as far as we no so far
I think that's stretching it: you can find a pictures of the two of them in a shop together from 2005, and it is assumed they were there together. Likewise I believe there is evidence of at least one phone call.
But that's a long way way from "close friend".
Epstein called him Petey
I assume you would also think he wasnt a close friend of Ms Maxwell?
Its deeply desperately funny. "Must stop Starmer". I know - lets try and associate them with the Epstein scandal! That will make people vote Tory and that way lies True Socialism.
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
your sentiment may be good in theory...but i dont think its wise to inflame tensions in the ethnic communities....these are good people just like you
Exactly how is it inflaming tensions when the majority of ethnic populations have taken the vaccine?
because a significantly lower proportion of our ethnic communities have taken the vaccine...hence the discrimination...its quite simple
I’m a bit thick, how is it discrimination if people choose not to have a free vaccine and then suffer the consquences?
because you fail to take account of the history especially of the black community with regards to vaccines and the reasons for their suspicions....try and be more considerate to these communities and please dont other them
I have no idea what othering is. I understand people have had concerns about the vaccines. @TOPPING of this parish, and @Dura_Ace, are two who have expressed concerns. But after more than a year, with 40 million people vaccinated in the U.K., with very few negative incidents, certainly compared with the 150K or so who have died of covid, and the proven efficacy, there are no excuses left. I believe in community, but all have to play their part. I don’t want to forcebably vaccinate people, but if restrictions have to be imposed then those who have chosen not to do the right thing should be the first ones to have curtails on what they can do imposed. If that is vaccine passports then so be it.
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Even most ethnic minority are now vaccinated
not in the same proportion as the whites though...hence the discrimination
It’s not discrimination. There has been enough time, and more than enough evidence of safety and effectiveness. No excuses left now.
As Quark and Grand Negus Zek both so rightly said, 'stupidity is no excuse.'
We don't have enough Ferengi quotes on this forum.
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
I think you'll find that we are all of "ethnic extraction". Though I agree with the sentiment of your comment.
I was trying and failing to phrase things in a way to avoid upsetting people. I’m not very good at choosing the ‘correct’ terms...
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
your sentiment may be good in theory...but i dont think its wise to inflame tensions in the ethnic communities....these are good people just like you
Exactly how is it inflaming tensions when the majority of ethnic populations have taken the vaccine?
because a significantly lower proportion of our ethnic communities have taken the vaccine...hence the discrimination...its quite simple
I’m a bit thick, how is it discrimination if people choose not to have a free vaccine and then suffer the consquences?
because you fail to take account of the history especially of the black community with regards to vaccines and the reasons for their suspicions....try and be more considerate to these communities and please dont other them
If I thought that you were genuinely concerned about racial discrimination/injustice, then I'd listen. But I don't believe you are, for a moment. So I won't.
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
The government exists to serve the people, not to say “you lot over there can go f*ck yourselves”.
If you want to charge them more then do so, but don’t other them
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
The government exists to serve the people, not to say “you lot over there can go f*ck yourselves”.
If you want to charge them more then do so, but don’t other them
Genuine question, what do you mean by othering? Have other nations othered people by your terms?
Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
Hmmm. I don't think anyone has ever accused Mandelson of paedophilia.
Apparently he is guilty of being Jewish. .
In your tiny little warped mind.
Petey was a close friend of Epstein nothing more as far as we no so far
I think that's stretching it: you can find a pictures of the two of them in a shop together from 2005, and it is assumed they were there together. Likewise I believe there is evidence of at least one phone call.
But that's a long way way from "close friend".
Epstein called him Petey
I assume you would also think he wasnt a close friend of Ms Maxwell?
We have dozens of photos of Donald Trump with Epstein and Ghislane. Ditto Bill Gates, Bill Clinton. And let's not even start with Alan Dershowitz.
Google images has a single photo of Epstein and Mandelson together. And by together, I mean "in the same shop". There are no photos that a cursory Google image search finds of Mandelson and Maxwell.
You are making some fairly wild accusations off incredibly sparse evidence.
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
Like the majority of people who disapprove of drink driving?
Because that is what sane, voluntarily, healthy unjabbed people are. Drink drivers, about to mow down dozens who will be refused hospital treatment if the NHS collapses
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
The government exists to serve the people, not to say “you lot over there can go f*ck yourselves”.
If you want to charge them more then do so, but don’t other them
Genuine question, what do you mean by othering? Have other nations othered people by your terms?
Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
Hmmm. I don't think anyone has ever accused Mandelson of paedophilia.
Apparently he is guilty of being Jewish. .
In your tiny little warped mind.
Petey was a close friend of Epstein nothing more as far as we no so far
I think that's stretching it: you can find a pictures of the two of them in a shop together from 2005, and it is assumed they were there together. Likewise I believe there is evidence of at least one phone call.
But that's a long way way from "close friend".
Epstein called him Petey
I assume you would also think he wasnt a close friend of Ms Maxwell?
We have dozens of photos of Donald Trump with Epstein and Ghislane. Ditto Bill Gates, Bill Clinton. And let's not even start with Alan Dershowitz.
Google images has a single photo of Epstein and Mandelson together. And by together, I mean "in the same shop". There are no photos that a cursory Google image search finds of Mandelson and Maxwell.
You are making some fairly wild accusations off incredibly sparse evidence.
But he has to end Starmer! And this is a brilliant opportunity...
Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
Hmmm. I don't think anyone has ever accused Mandelson of paedophilia.
Apparently he is guilty of being Jewish. .
In your tiny little warped mind.
Petey was a close friend of Epstein nothing more as far as we no so far
Fine. So, to join the dots
Mandelson is a Labour centrist
Mandelson says Labour now ready for government
Mandelson allegedly is "a close friend of Epstein"
So we can sweep away any suggestion that Labour are now ready for government because....?
Its deeply tragically desperate. Even for you.
No lets join the dots
I posted Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
Petey was a friend of Epstein and reckons Labour is ready for Government
You ploughed in with "So being Jewish makes Mandelson a "friend" of Epstein? Dear God thats awful even for you".
The end.
If you want to post a link to a reputable source with evidence that Epstein and Mandelson were "close friends", go ahead. Otherwise, I would suggest you try and avoid libelling Peter Mandelson.
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
your sentiment may be good in theory...but i dont think its wise to inflame tensions in the ethnic communities....these are good people just like you
Exactly how is it inflaming tensions when the majority of ethnic populations have taken the vaccine?
because a significantly lower proportion of our ethnic communities have taken the vaccine...hence the discrimination...its quite simple
I’m a bit thick, how is it discrimination if people choose not to have a free vaccine and then suffer the consquences?
because you fail to take account of the history especially of the black community with regards to vaccines and the reasons for their suspicions....try and be more considerate to these communities and please dont other them
If I thought that you were genuinely concerned about racial discrimination/injustice, then I'd listen. But I don't believe you are, for a moment. So I won't.
its whether you are concerned about racial injustice not me....by the tone of your reply it appears you arent bothered about racial injustice....fair enough
Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
So being Jewish makes Mandelson a "friend" of Epstein? Dear God thats awful even for you.
I have a vague memory he was either on the private plane or may be just in the little black book. So an association but nothing worse (and given what I believe are his preferences, there isn’t much likelihood of worse having occurred)
His name was in the Black Book (but then a lot of peoples' names were in the "Black Book"). And there is a single photo of them in the same shop in St Barts dating back to 2005. Peter Mandelson's office also tried to use Jeffrey Epstein to get a call with Jamie Dimon.
None of which is evidence of a "close friendship". Either that, or I have about 12,000 close friends.
"In the document, Ms Giuffre, also referred to by her unmarried name Roberts, agreed to "release, acquit, satisfy, and forever discharge" Epstein and "any other person or entity who could have been included as a potential defendant".
The settlement's wording says she discharges "potential defendants" from any US legal action, including damages claims dating "from the beginning of the world"."
Whatever the merits of this particular case, I have a distinct dislike of the US system of both plea bargaining and of 'deals'. I don't know if it exists in British law but it just seems wrong to me.
Remember that this is a civil action - in UK law the parties can always make a "deal" and agree to finish the case with an arrangement 'certified' (correct word?) by the Court.
In her previous activities afaik Giuffre has always been after compensation not convictions.
In UK Criminal Law the deals AIUI are normally a little subliminal and revolve around what you are charged with eg "plead guilty to a lesser offence", or the police offering a caution if they are not confident of a conviction.
I have to say that if that agreement was before a Scottish or English court this case would be over. Indeed, it should never have started.
Meaning, the court would chuck her out on the basis of the release? You are the successful practising lawyer, not me, but I hae me doots. You really, really can't tell what the scope of "any other person or entity who could have been included as a potential defendant" is without seeing the statement of claim, but if it says, say, people did stuff to me in Florida and the BVI, I don't see that it begins to cover stuff alleged to be done in NY or London.
Yes, it would be chucked out. Her whole story is how Epstein trafficked her and set her up to be used by Andrew. How on earth could it not be connected? If it wasn't for Epstein what on earth was she doing there? If it was of her own volition with no trafficking why on earth would she have a claim?
OK, but courts aren't going to be falling over themselves to interpret ambiguities in his favour. If the 2009 settled case says "stuff in florida" and the instant claim says "stuff in UK/NY" he has to say, in effect, yebbut actually I did stuff to her in Florida too. Attractive line of argument.,
No he doesn't. He simply needs to argue that this settlement was intended to cover all potential defendants which included "Royalty", allegedly.
OK. Let's see.
My view is simply how a UK court would construe such an agreement. I have no knowledge or expertise as to how an American court will address it but surely even if they let this proceed there is a nailed on appeal point?
don't really understand that. The US reckons it's a Common Law jurisdiction, so if as a Scots lawyer you think you can tell how a generic UK court would construe it, you should also be able to have a stab at US courts. It's about strict construction of the "anyone who could be a defendant," and privity of contract, I'd have thought.
US contract law is usually found in their Universal Commercial Contract provisions which are adopted to varying degrees by the various states and can be applied to contracts falling outwith its terms by the agreement of the parties. It is wrong to think that all common law jurisdictions interpret contracts the same way. Hence my hesitation.
Full text. I'd be astonished if it had incorporated Universal Commercial Contract provisions, and it doesn't. And if it had done, English common law would have recognised the incorporation just as US common law would have.
I repeat that I am not an American lawyer but my understanding is that it is commonplace for the UCC to be referred to as authority as to how contracts should be construed, whether it is incorporated or not. It is used as a textbook.
The question in our law would be whether the agreement was clearly intended to be in full settlement of the claimant's loss. If it was then she cannot make a claim against others. If it wasn't such a claim may be possible. Having looked at the full version of the agreement, and specifically the definition of second parties, it is possible that a court might construe "other defendants" narrowly so as to only include those potentially within the definition of second parties and it might be hard to argue that this included everyone for whom Epstein arranged sexual services. So, as you said, we shall have to see.
Surely though, Giuffre may have had full settlement for her loss regarding what Epstein did to her but sill has the right to pursue Andrew for compensation for what she alleges he (not Epstein) did to her?
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
Like the majority of people who disapprove of drink driving?
Because that is what sane, voluntarily, healthy unjabbed people are. Drink drivers, about to mow down dozens who will be refused hospital treatment if the NHS collapses
so you are likening many in our ethnic minority communities to drink drivers about to mow down dozens.....i expected better from you Leon....many of these people immigrated to this country in good faith....now they are being spoken about like that
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
The government exists to serve the people, not to say “you lot over there can go f*ck yourselves”.
If you want to charge them more then do so, but don’t other them
But if you accept charging some people more than you charge others, are you not othering the others?
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
Like the majority of people who disapprove of drink driving?
Because that is what sane, voluntarily, healthy unjabbed people are. Drink drivers, about to mow down dozens who will be refused hospital treatment if the NHS collapses
so you are likening many in our ethnic minority communities to drink drivers about to mow down dozens.....i expected better from you Leon....many of these people immigrated to this country in good faith....now they are being spoken about like that
Nope, the Venn diagram circle is unvaccinated. It overlaps with lots of other circles, that includes black, white, brown, gay, straight, whatever. The choice not to be vaccinated is like the decision to be.a drunk driver. Some have suggested we should compare to seatbelts, but drunk drivers is a far better comparison.
Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
Hmmm. I don't think anyone has ever accused Mandelson of paedophilia.
Apparently he is guilty of being Jewish. .
In your tiny little warped mind.
Petey was a close friend of Epstein nothing more as far as we no so far
I think that's stretching it: you can find a pictures of the two of them in a shop together from 2005, and it is assumed they were there together. Likewise I believe there is evidence of at least one phone call.
But that's a long way way from "close friend".
Epstein called him Petey
I assume you would also think he wasnt a close friend of Ms Maxwell?
We have dozens of photos of Donald Trump with Epstein and Ghislane. Ditto Bill Gates, Bill Clinton. And let's not even start with Alan Dershowitz.
Google images has a single photo of Epstein and Mandelson together. And by together, I mean "in the same shop". There are no photos that a cursory Google image search finds of Mandelson and Maxwell.
You are making some fairly wild accusations off incredibly sparse evidence.
To be fair to both @RochdalePioneers and @bigjohnowls, it is likely that BJO's suggestions PM and Epstein were close friends is not correct but also that Rochdale's claim that BJO was raising the issue just because PM was Jewish is also likely wrong.
Also, I wouldn't place too much faith in there being only one photo of PM and Epstein. Knowing what we do about Epstein, I find it hard to believe he wouldn't have tried to lure PM in some way nor that PM is smart enough to know that sometimes it is best not to be photographed with certain people (especially given what happened to PM in the past).
Apropos of nothing, what’s happened to @CorrectHorseBattery? Annoying as I find him, this place isn’t quite the same without his endless postings of the same thing, over and over, and then denying it.
He's fine. Lurking. Taking a break from posting for a while.
Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
Hmmm. I don't think anyone has ever accused Mandelson of paedophilia.
Apparently he is guilty of being Jewish. Not that there was an anti-semitism problem in Jezbollah's Labour you understand. It was all just a smear...
Just on a point of order, his father was Jewish, but his mother wasn't, so he also isn't (and I believe doesn't claim to be).
I don't think that was regarded as not being Jewish by some fairly key 20th century players.
By that logic, we should also just let Epstein and his associates define the age in consent in law, and then this whole argument becomes redundant.
You have a whole 3 minutes left to decide how catastrophically stupid that is, and delete it.
It's a deliberately stupid response to a stupid argument. The idea that Hitler gets to define who is and is not a Jew forever because he killed more of them than anyone else is moronic.
Utter gibberish, smearing a great scientist, and the author does not even understand basic science
Yet is rather worryingly an academic.....who the scientific american think is worthy of publishing an opinion piece.
The article is much discussed on Twitter
The verdict is, this may be the end of "Scientific" American?
An astonishingly stupid column, written by a woman with no basic command of the facts. Trashing a brilliant scientist. I get that E O "Sociobiology" Wilson is not everyone's cup of tea, you can't adduce huge evidence that creatures order themselves according to evolutionary principles, which impact mentality, sociology and behaviour as much as physiology, without annoying the majorly religious or the insanely lefty, but usually the objections need scientific evidence, to be sustained in a major scientific journal
Here there is no evidence. It is Woke opinion which is offended
Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
Hmmm. I don't think anyone has ever accused Mandelson of paedophilia.
Apparently he is guilty of being Jewish. Not that there was an anti-semitism problem in Jezbollah's Labour you understand. It was all just a smear...
Just on a point of order, his father was Jewish, but his mother wasn't, so he also isn't (and I believe doesn't claim to be).
I don't think that was regarded as not being Jewish by some fairly key 20th century players.
By that logic, we should also just let Epstein and his associates define the age in consent in law, and then this whole argument becomes redundant.
There is a similar sort of thing with George Soros in the US, namely that if you criticise his support for funding "progressive" DAs and radical causes you are, ipso facto, anti-semitic according to Soros' backers. So, while there is no doubt that Corbyn's Labour party had nasty traits, bear that in mind.
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
your sentiment may be good in theory...but i dont think its wise to inflame tensions in the ethnic communities....these are good people just like you
Exactly how is it inflaming tensions when the majority of ethnic populations have taken the vaccine?
because a significantly lower proportion of our ethnic communities have taken the vaccine...hence the discrimination...its quite simple
I’m a bit thick, how is it discrimination if people choose not to have a free vaccine and then suffer the consquences?
because you fail to take account of the history especially of the black community with regards to vaccines and the reasons for their suspicions....try and be more considerate to these communities and please dont other them
I have no idea what othering is. I understand people have had concerns about the vaccines. @TOPPING of this parish, and @Dura_Ace, are two who have expressed concerns. But after more than a year, with 40 million people vaccinated in the U.K., with very few negative incidents, certainly compared with the 150K or so who have died of covid, and the proven efficacy, there are no excuses left. I believe in community, but all have to play their part. I don’t want to forcebably vaccinate people, but if restrictions have to be imposed then those who have chosen not to do the right thing should be the first ones to have curtails on what they can do imposed. If that is vaccine passports then so be it.
To view or treat a person or group of people as intrinsically different to yourself
I am deeply uncomfortable with a small segment of society who have decided not to take an optimal medical treatment being identified as primarily to blame for the fact that successive government undervalued resiliency in the health (and other strategic) systems
Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
Hmmm. I don't think anyone has ever accused Mandelson of paedophilia.
Apparently he is guilty of being Jewish. Not that there was an anti-semitism problem in Jezbollah's Labour you understand. It was all just a smear...
Just on a point of order, his father was Jewish, but his mother wasn't, so he also isn't (and I believe doesn't claim to be).
I don't think that was regarded as not being Jewish by some fairly key 20th century players.
By that logic, we should also just let Epstein and his associates define the age in consent in law, and then this whole argument becomes redundant.
There is a similar sort of thing with George Soros in the US, namely that if you criticise his support for funding "progressive" DAs and radical causes you are, ipso facto, anti-semitic according to Soros' backers. So, while there is no doubt that Corbyn's Labour party had nasty traits, bear that in mind.
Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
Hmmm. I don't think anyone has ever accused Mandelson of paedophilia.
Apparently he is guilty of being Jewish. Not that there was an anti-semitism problem in Jezbollah's Labour you understand. It was all just a smear...
Just on a point of order, his father was Jewish, but his mother wasn't, so he also isn't (and I believe doesn't claim to be).
I don't think that was regarded as not being Jewish by some fairly key 20th century players.
By that logic, we should also just let Epstein and his associates define the age in consent in law, and then this whole argument becomes redundant.
You have a whole 3 minutes left to decide how catastrophically stupid that is, and delete it.
It's a deliberately stupid response to a stupid argument. The idea that Hitler gets to define who is and is not a Jew forever because he killed more of them than anyone else is moronic.
No it isn't, you are trying to recover lost ground by playing the irony card. To the extent that being Jewish is genetic, which it just is, you would have to have a pre Aristotelian view of heredity to think it was transmissible via the female line.
Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
Hmmm. I don't think anyone has ever accused Mandelson of paedophilia.
Apparently he is guilty of being Jewish. .
In your tiny little warped mind.
Petey was a close friend of Epstein nothing more as far as we no so far
I think that's stretching it: you can find a pictures of the two of them in a shop together from 2005, and it is assumed they were there together. Likewise I believe there is evidence of at least one phone call.
But that's a long way way from "close friend".
Epstein called him Petey
I assume you would also think he wasnt a close friend of Ms Maxwell?
We have dozens of photos of Donald Trump with Epstein and Ghislane. Ditto Bill Gates, Bill Clinton. And let's not even start with Alan Dershowitz.
Google images has a single photo of Epstein and Mandelson together. And by together, I mean "in the same shop". There are no photos that a cursory Google image search finds of Mandelson and Maxwell.
You are making some fairly wild accusations off incredibly sparse evidence.
To be fair to both @RochdalePioneers and @bigjohnowls, it is likely that BJO's suggestions PM and Epstein were close friends is not correct but also that Rochdale's claim that BJO was raising the issue just because PM was Jewish is also likely wrong.
Also, I wouldn't place too much faith in there being only one photo of PM and Epstein. Knowing what we do about Epstein, I find it hard to believe he wouldn't have tried to lure PM in some way nor that PM is smart enough to know that sometimes it is best not to be photographed with certain people (especially given what happened to PM in the past).
My view - fwiw - is that there may be dodgy photos of PM. But if there are, they won't be with someone who hosted parties with underage girls.
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
The government exists to serve the people, not to say “you lot over there can go f*ck yourselves”.
If you want to charge them more then do so, but don’t other them
Genuine question, what do you mean by othering? Have other nations othered people by your terms?
I’ve answered in another question. It is used by historians to describe a process with troubling implications
Utter gibberish, smearing a great scientist, and the author does not even understand basic science
Yet is rather worryingly an academic.....who the scientific american think is worthy of publishing an opinion piece.
The article is much discussed on Twitter
The verdict is, this may be the end of "Scientific" American?
An astonishingly stupid column, written by a woman with no basic command of the facts. Trashing a brilliant scientist. I get that E O "Sociobiology" Wilson is not everyone's cup of tea, you can't adduce huge evidence that creatures order themselves according to evolutionary principles, which impact mentality, sociology and behaviour as much as physiology, without annoying the majorly religious or the insanely lefty, but usually the objections need scientific evidence, to be sustained in a major scientific journal
Here there is no evidence. It is Woke opinion which is offended
People who view the world in this way, it must be incredibly tiring in which you are seeing absolutely everything ever as racist discrimination.
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
your sentiment may be good in theory...but i dont think its wise to inflame tensions in the ethnic communities....these are good people just like you
Exactly how is it inflaming tensions when the majority of ethnic populations have taken the vaccine?
because a significantly lower proportion of our ethnic communities have taken the vaccine...hence the discrimination...its quite simple
I’m a bit thick, how is it discrimination if people choose not to have a free vaccine and then suffer the consquences?
because you fail to take account of the history especially of the black community with regards to vaccines and the reasons for their suspicions....try and be more considerate to these communities and please dont other them
I have no idea what othering is. I understand people have had concerns about the vaccines. @TOPPING of this parish, and @Dura_Ace, are two who have expressed concerns. But after more than a year, with 40 million people vaccinated in the U.K., with very few negative incidents, certainly compared with the 150K or so who have died of covid, and the proven efficacy, there are no excuses left. I believe in community, but all have to play their part. I don’t want to forcebably vaccinate people, but if restrictions have to be imposed then those who have chosen not to do the right thing should be the first ones to have curtails on what they can do imposed. If that is vaccine passports then so be it.
To view or treat a person or group of people as intrinsically different to yourself
I am deeply uncomfortable with a small segment of society who have decided not to take an optimal medical treatment being identified as primarily to blame for the fact that successive government undervalued resiliency in the health (and other strategic) systems
But surely your solution to charge them more is exactly the same? (As @IshmaelZ pointed out)
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
your sentiment may be good in theory...but i dont think its wise to inflame tensions in the ethnic communities....these are good people just like you
Exactly how is it inflaming tensions when the majority of ethnic populations have taken the vaccine?
because a significantly lower proportion of our ethnic communities have taken the vaccine...hence the discrimination...its quite simple
I’m a bit thick, how is it discrimination if people choose not to have a free vaccine and then suffer the consquences?
because you fail to take account of the history especially of the black community with regards to vaccines and the reasons for their suspicions....try and be more considerate to these communities and please dont other them
I have no idea what othering is. I understand people have had concerns about the vaccines. @TOPPING of this parish, and @Dura_Ace, are two who have expressed concerns. But after more than a year, with 40 million people vaccinated in the U.K., with very few negative incidents, certainly compared with the 150K or so who have died of covid, and the proven efficacy, there are no excuses left. I believe in community, but all have to play their part. I don’t want to forcebably vaccinate people, but if restrictions have to be imposed then those who have chosen not to do the right thing should be the first ones to have curtails on what they can do imposed. If that is vaccine passports then so be it.
To view or treat a person or group of people as intrinsically different to yourself
I am deeply uncomfortable with a small segment of society who have decided not to take an optimal medical treatment being identified as primarily to blame for the fact that successive government undervalued resiliency in the health (and other strategic) systems
"I am deeply uncomfortable with a small segment of society who have decide not to take an optimal medical treatment - ie, those people who are determined to be completely hammered on 3 bottles of wine when they take the wheel of their car - being as primarily to blame for the - subsequent huge increase in pedestrian deaths on the road - and I object to them being stigmatised blah blah fucking blah"
it is now fucking obvious that if you drink and drive, you kill people. As it is obvious that if you refuse the jab, and go about your business, you kill people. Probably many more than any drink driver
Religion, culture, ethnicity, whatever, it is no excuse. Even if your stupid church or ridiculous mosque teaches you that drink driving is your right, we do not tolerate these people when it comes to drink driving. And plague is much more pressing a concern than road deaths.
Utter gibberish, smearing a great scientist, and the author does not even understand basic science
Yet is rather worryingly an academic.....who the scientific american think is worthy of publishing an opinion piece.
That would be a great argument if all you knew about the piece was that it got published by the SA. As it happens though, it is accessible online, so surely the better approach would be to read it and judge it on its merits?
Indeed. At 1 pm I was eating my lunch on a bench enjoying the brilliant, warmish sunshine. Came down at 5:30 to find a blanket of lying snow. Still falling steadily. You? It's beginning to look a lot like January.
Utter gibberish, smearing a great scientist, and the author does not even understand basic science
Yet is rather worryingly an academic.....who the scientific american think is worthy of publishing an opinion piece.
That would be a great argument if all you knew about the piece was that it got published by the SA. As it happens though, it is accessible online, so surely the better approach would be to read it and judge it on its merits?
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
The government exists to serve the people, not to say “you lot over there can go f*ck yourselves”.
If you want to charge them more then do so, but don’t other them
Genuine question, what do you mean by othering? Have other nations othered people by your terms?
I’ve answered in another question. It is used by historians to describe a process with troubling implications
Don’t you see a difference here though? If it was based on something inherent in a population then I’d agree, but it’s not. They are choosing not to be vaccinated. I’d support a change to the law that brings in vaccine passports, and give a certain amount of time to get the vaccine. I don’t share your concern here.
Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
Hmmm. I don't think anyone has ever accused Mandelson of paedophilia.
Apparently he is guilty of being Jewish. Not that there was an anti-semitism problem in Jezbollah's Labour you understand. It was all just a smear...
Just on a point of order, his father was Jewish, but his mother wasn't, so he also isn't (and I believe doesn't claim to be).
I don't think that was regarded as not being Jewish by some fairly key 20th century players.
By that logic, we should also just let Epstein and his associates define the age in consent in law, and then this whole argument becomes redundant.
You have a whole 3 minutes left to decide how catastrophically stupid that is, and delete it.
It's a deliberately stupid response to a stupid argument. The idea that Hitler gets to define who is and is not a Jew forever because he killed more of them than anyone else is moronic.
No it isn't, you are trying to recover lost ground by playing the irony card. To the extent that being Jewish is genetic, which it just is, you would have to have a pre Aristotelian view of heredity to think it was transmissible via the female line.
Ok good, now we're back onto more-or-less sensible ground. There are four plausible ways of defining who is and is not Jewish:
Mandelson does not qualify under 4, to the best of my knowledge. 1) is a little more complicated, but the Orthodox definition excludes him, and (again, to the the best of my knowledge) he's never shown any interest in any of the others, so it's moot. 3) is very subjective - hence why it's not a very good definition - but on the whole, probably not. That leaves 2), under which he's 50% Jewish - but then you get into the argument as to whether being Jewish qualifies as an ethnicity in the first place, and this is a complete mess of an argument, eg see here: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/judge-rules-judaism-not-race-jewish-people-can-be-targeted-ncna896806
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
Like the majority of people who disapprove of drink driving?
Because that is what sane, voluntarily, healthy unjabbed people are. Drink drivers, about to mow down dozens who will be refused hospital treatment if the NHS collapses
so you are likening many in our ethnic minority communities to drink drivers about to mow down dozens.....i expected better from you Leon....many of these people immigrated to this country in good faith....now they are being spoken about like that
You are trying to cause division. It’s not working.
But worse than that you are dull.
But I can see you have avoided answering @rcs1000 ’s questions
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
your sentiment may be good in theory...but i dont think its wise to inflame tensions in the ethnic communities....these are good people just like you
Exactly how is it inflaming tensions when the majority of ethnic populations have taken the vaccine?
because a significantly lower proportion of our ethnic communities have taken the vaccine...hence the discrimination...its quite simple
I’m a bit thick, how is it discrimination if people choose not to have a free vaccine and then suffer the consquences?
because you fail to take account of the history especially of the black community with regards to vaccines and the reasons for their suspicions....try and be more considerate to these communities and please dont other them
I have no idea what othering is. I understand people have had concerns about the vaccines. @TOPPING of this parish, and @Dura_Ace, are two who have expressed concerns. But after more than a year, with 40 million people vaccinated in the U.K., with very few negative incidents, certainly compared with the 150K or so who have died of covid, and the proven efficacy, there are no excuses left. I believe in community, but all have to play their part. I don’t want to forcebably vaccinate people, but if restrictions have to be imposed then those who have chosen not to do the right thing should be the first ones to have curtails on what they can do imposed. If that is vaccine passports then so be it.
To view or treat a person or group of people as intrinsically different to yourself
I am deeply uncomfortable with a small segment of society who have decided not to take an optimal medical treatment being identified as primarily to blame for the fact that successive government undervalued resiliency in the health (and other strategic) systems
How is that what is happening? Aren't people arguing on a basis of 'freedom to face consequences for their own actions' kind of thing?
Can't say I agree with all suggestions on this one, I'm unsure of the approach which does the least harm, but it does appear to me there is overcaution in respect of responding to people who, even now, refuse vaccination. Given the societal impacts there are many things short of forcing people that could be done to strongly encourage.
Given the things people whinge is an attempt to force them to do things (as has been pointed out your own solution would likely be decried as no different), some harsh encouragement at this point may as well be done.
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
The government exists to serve the people, not to say “you lot over there can go f*ck yourselves”.
If you want to charge them more then do so, but don’t other them
But if you accept charging some people more than you charge others, are you not othering the others?
No because a person’s taxes are private between them and the government
This Mandelson photo is ludicrous stuff. There are photos of Jimmy Savile with all and sundry of the great and good. That's what manipulative paedophiles do. Ingratiate themselves with folk of influence.
Utter gibberish, smearing a great scientist, and the author does not even understand basic science
Yet is rather worryingly an academic.....who the scientific american think is worthy of publishing an opinion piece.
That would be a great argument if all you knew about the piece was that it got published by the SA. As it happens though, it is accessible online, so surely the better approach would be to read it and judge it on its merits?
Which I did
Yes I wasn't talking to you, I was responding to, but possibly misunderstanding, FrancisUrquhart
This Mandelson photo is ludicrous stuff. There are photos of Jimmy Savile with all and sundry of the great and good. That's what manipulative paedophiles do. Ingratiate themselves with folk of influence.
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
The government exists to serve the people, not to say “you lot over there can go f*ck yourselves”.
If you want to charge them more then do so, but don’t other them
But if you accept charging some people more than you charge others, are you not othering the others?
No because a person’s taxes are private between them and the government
Huh? I mean that’s a wierd response. By your definition they are being treated differently, just not in public.
Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
Hmmm. I don't think anyone has ever accused Mandelson of paedophilia.
Apparently he is guilty of being Jewish. .
In your tiny little warped mind.
Petey was a close friend of Epstein nothing more as far as we no so far
I think that's stretching it: you can find a pictures of the two of them in a shop together from 2005, and it is assumed they were there together. Likewise I believe there is evidence of at least one phone call.
But that's a long way way from "close friend".
Epstein called him Petey
I assume you would also think he wasnt a close friend of Ms Maxwell?
We have dozens of photos of Donald Trump with Epstein and Ghislane. Ditto Bill Gates, Bill Clinton. And let's not even start with Alan Dershowitz.
Google images has a single photo of Epstein and Mandelson together. And by together, I mean "in the same shop". There are no photos that a cursory Google image search finds of Mandelson and Maxwell.
You are making some fairly wild accusations off incredibly sparse evidence.
To be fair to both @RochdalePioneers and @bigjohnowls, it is likely that BJO's suggestions PM and Epstein were close friends is not correct but also that Rochdale's claim that BJO was raising the issue just because PM was Jewish is also likely wrong.
Also, I wouldn't place too much faith in there being only one photo of PM and Epstein. Knowing what we do about Epstein, I find it hard to believe he wouldn't have tried to lure PM in some way nor that PM is smart enough to know that sometimes it is best not to be photographed with certain people (especially given what happened to PM in the past).
My view - fwiw - is that there may be dodgy photos of PM. But if there are, they won't be with someone who hosted parties with underage girls.
Not unless his tastes have changed.
Although, that does raise an interesting question. If Epstein's aim in this was to blackmail powerful people, then why would he restrict his activities to girls? The obvious answer is that he was focused on his own pleasure and, if others used them, then that would be an additional benefit if they could be blackmailed. Still, might be worth asking.
This Mandelson photo is ludicrous stuff. There are photos of Jimmy Savile with all and sundry of the great and good. That's what manipulative paedophiles do. Ingratiate themselves with folk of influence.
The complaint in the action settled by the 2009 agreement
This is really interesting: the matters complained of are all in the nature of trafficking, procuring, crossing state lines, making pornographic images etc. Anyone who was merely an end user was NOT a "potential defendant" unless the claim were amended; but if you have to read the release as covering "potential defendant including to an amended claim" you are broadening it to a ludicrous extent to cover anyone who had ever wronged the plaintiff in any way, ever.
That sort of absurdity has never stopped the American legal system before.
Why will it now?
A third world legal system is a third world legal system.
Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
Hmmm. I don't think anyone has ever accused Mandelson of paedophilia.
Apparently he is guilty of being Jewish. .
In your tiny little warped mind.
Petey was a close friend of Epstein nothing more as far as we no so far
I think that's stretching it: you can find a pictures of the two of them in a shop together from 2005, and it is assumed they were there together. Likewise I believe there is evidence of at least one phone call.
But that's a long way way from "close friend".
Epstein called him Petey
I assume you would also think he wasnt a close friend of Ms Maxwell?
We have dozens of photos of Donald Trump with Epstein and Ghislane. Ditto Bill Gates, Bill Clinton. And let's not even start with Alan Dershowitz.
Google images has a single photo of Epstein and Mandelson together. And by together, I mean "in the same shop". There are no photos that a cursory Google image search finds of Mandelson and Maxwell.
You are making some fairly wild accusations off incredibly sparse evidence.
To be fair to both @RochdalePioneers and @bigjohnowls, it is likely that BJO's suggestions PM and Epstein were close friends is not correct but also that Rochdale's claim that BJO was raising the issue just because PM was Jewish is also likely wrong.
Also, I wouldn't place too much faith in there being only one photo of PM and Epstein. Knowing what we do about Epstein, I find it hard to believe he wouldn't have tried to lure PM in some way nor that PM is smart enough to know that sometimes it is best not to be photographed with certain people (especially given what happened to PM in the past).
My view - fwiw - is that there may be dodgy photos of PM. But if there are, they won't be with someone who hosted parties with underage girls.
Not unless his tastes have changed.
Although, that does raise an interesting question. If Epstein's aim in this was to blackmail powerful people, then why would he restrict his activities to girls? The obvious answer is that he was focused on his own pleasure and, if others used them, then that would be an additional benefit if they could be blackmailed. Still, might be worth asking.
I think there will be a parallel Epstein, whose tastes run differently. We just don't know who that is yet.
Those who hang out and sleep with young girls, probably like to spend time with other people who do similarly. And I suspect this is also true of those whose interests lie in the other direction.
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
your sentiment may be good in theory...but i dont think its wise to inflame tensions in the ethnic communities....these are good people just like you
Exactly how is it inflaming tensions when the majority of ethnic populations have taken the vaccine?
because a significantly lower proportion of our ethnic communities have taken the vaccine...hence the discrimination...its quite simple
I’m a bit thick, how is it discrimination if people choose not to have a free vaccine and then suffer the consquences?
because you fail to take account of the history especially of the black community with regards to vaccines and the reasons for their suspicions....try and be more considerate to these communities and please dont other them
I have no idea what othering is. I understand people have had concerns about the vaccines. @TOPPING of this parish, and @Dura_Ace, are two who have expressed concerns. But after more than a year, with 40 million people vaccinated in the U.K., with very few negative incidents, certainly compared with the 150K or so who have died of covid, and the proven efficacy, there are no excuses left. I believe in community, but all have to play their part. I don’t want to forcebably vaccinate people, but if restrictions have to be imposed then those who have chosen not to do the right thing should be the first ones to have curtails on what they can do imposed. If that is vaccine passports then so be it.
To view or treat a person or group of people as intrinsically different to yourself
I am deeply uncomfortable with a small segment of society who have decided not to take an optimal medical treatment being identified as primarily to blame for the fact that successive government undervalued resiliency in the health (and other strategic) systems
But surely your solution to charge them more is exactly the same? (As @IshmaelZ pointed out)
My solution would be to do nothing, but if you are worried about excess costs you can charge them. I would prefer to defend the principle that the NHS is free at the point of need. But taxation is a private matter rather than publicly treating a defined group as different
This Mandelson photo is ludicrous stuff. There are photos of Jimmy Savile with all and sundry of the great and good. That's what manipulative paedophiles do. Ingratiate themselves with folk of influence.
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
your sentiment may be good in theory...but i dont think its wise to inflame tensions in the ethnic communities....these are good people just like you
Exactly how is it inflaming tensions when the majority of ethnic populations have taken the vaccine?
because a significantly lower proportion of our ethnic communities have taken the vaccine...hence the discrimination...its quite simple
I’m a bit thick, how is it discrimination if people choose not to have a free vaccine and then suffer the consquences?
because you fail to take account of the history especially of the black community with regards to vaccines and the reasons for their suspicions....try and be more considerate to these communities and please dont other them
I have no idea what othering is. I understand people have had concerns about the vaccines. @TOPPING of this parish, and @Dura_Ace, are two who have expressed concerns. But after more than a year, with 40 million people vaccinated in the U.K., with very few negative incidents, certainly compared with the 150K or so who have died of covid, and the proven efficacy, there are no excuses left. I believe in community, but all have to play their part. I don’t want to forcebably vaccinate people, but if restrictions have to be imposed then those who have chosen not to do the right thing should be the first ones to have curtails on what they can do imposed. If that is vaccine passports then so be it.
To view or treat a person or group of people as intrinsically different to yourself
I am deeply uncomfortable with a small segment of society who have decided not to take an optimal medical treatment being identified as primarily to blame for the fact that successive government undervalued resiliency in the health (and other strategic) systems
How is that what is happening? Aren't people arguing on a basis of 'freedom to face consequences for their own actions' kind of thing?
Can't say I agree with all suggestions on this one, I'm unsure of the approach which does the least harm, but it does appear to me there is overcaution in respect of responding to people who, even now, refuse vaccination. Given the societal impacts there are many things short of forcing people that could be done to strongly encourage.
Given the things people whinge is an attempt to force them to do things (as has been pointed out your own solution would likely be decried as no different), some harsh encouragement at this point may as well be done.
They are looking to exclude a group from the full benefits of being citizens.
A drink driver is breaking the law and can be prosecuted for it.
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
your sentiment may be good in theory...but i dont think its wise to inflame tensions in the ethnic communities....these are good people just like you
Exactly how is it inflaming tensions when the majority of ethnic populations have taken the vaccine?
because a significantly lower proportion of our ethnic communities have taken the vaccine...hence the discrimination...its quite simple
I’m a bit thick, how is it discrimination if people choose not to have a free vaccine and then suffer the consquences?
because you fail to take account of the history especially of the black community with regards to vaccines and the reasons for their suspicions....try and be more considerate to these communities and please dont other them
I have no idea what othering is. I understand people have had concerns about the vaccines. @TOPPING of this parish, and @Dura_Ace, are two who have expressed concerns. But after more than a year, with 40 million people vaccinated in the U.K., with very few negative incidents, certainly compared with the 150K or so who have died of covid, and the proven efficacy, there are no excuses left. I believe in community, but all have to play their part. I don’t want to forcebably vaccinate people, but if restrictions have to be imposed then those who have chosen not to do the right thing should be the first ones to have curtails on what they can do imposed. If that is vaccine passports then so be it.
To view or treat a person or group of people as intrinsically different to yourself
I am deeply uncomfortable with a small segment of society who have decided not to take an optimal medical treatment being identified as primarily to blame for the fact that successive government undervalued resiliency in the health (and other strategic) systems
But surely your solution to charge them more is exactly the same? (As @IshmaelZ pointed out)
My solution would be to do nothing, but if you are worried about excess costs you can charge them. I would prefer to defend the principle that the NHS is free at the point of need. But taxation is a private matter rather than publicly treating a defined group as different
I’ve not suggested that unvaccinated don’t get the same nhs care as everyone else. Absolutely keeping the nhs free at the point of need is a touchstone, even if it’s not totally true anymore (dentistry, opticians etc). But calling things like vaccine passports othering, but not differential taxation just seems like semantics.
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
The government exists to serve the people, not to say “you lot over there can go f*ck yourselves”.
If you want to charge them more then do so, but don’t other them
But if you accept charging some people more than you charge others, are you not othering the others?
No because a person’s taxes are private between them and the government
Huh? I mean that’s a wierd response. By your definition they are being treated differently, just not in public.
Othering is all about public segregation and differentiation
I could not care less. Post vaccination we are now in a clear ideological divide of statist leftwingers who want to impose Covid restrictions forever and rightwingers and libertarians who want us to largely live our lives freely again.
Boris has correctly positioned himself on the right side of that divide to motivate his base
Many more Conservative MPs supported the move to introduce covid certification for entry to nightclubs and large venues than opposed it yet all we hear are the "96 rebels". The last I saw, there are 364 Conservative MPs so the 96 represent a minority viewpoint it would seem.
All Liberal Democrats who voted opposed the measure so in effect if you want an end to restrictions and a return to a normal life you should leave the Conservative Party and join the Liberal Democrats.
There is a difference between vaxports to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, who make up most of those in hospital with Covid and imposing restrictions again on the vaccinated majority. I have no problem with the former, I do have a problem with the latter
Classic bully
Line up with the majority and beat up the rest
No, beating up the rest would be mandatory vaccination and forcibly holding down the unvaccinated and jabbing them
“I have no problem with [imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated]”
Lock up anyone that disagrees with me!
If by their choice they are now taking the majority of hospital beds as a result of Covid they must be the ones to face any new restrictions. Not the vaccinated
again that is good in theory but could be very racially divisive....i dont think we want racial divisions in this country
Sorry, I don’t give a shit if it’s racially divisive. I don’t know what more can be done to persuade people to be jabbed. It’s totally free, effective, safe, taken up by over 90 % of adults already, including most of ethnic extraction. The vast majority who have done what was asked and protected themselves should not be restricted for the benefit of the idiots, even those with ‘genuine’ concerns. Get of Facebook, get of Twitter and look into the real world data.
The government exists to serve the people, not to say “you lot over there can go f*ck yourselves”.
If you want to charge them more then do so, but don’t other them
But if you accept charging some people more than you charge others, are you not othering the others?
No because a person’s taxes are private between them and the government
Huh? I mean that’s a wierd response. By your definition they are being treated differently, just not in public.
Othering is all about public segregation and differentiation
Oh so it’s only if it’s done in public? It’s ok to discriminate in private?
Comments
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10173558/peter-mandelson-phoned-jeffrey-epstein-while-paedo-tycoon-was-in-jail-for-sex-offences-bombshell-documentary-claims/
Petey was a close friend of Epstein nothing more as far as we no so far
Bear in mind they are playing a fancy game whose rules we do not know. They may be constrained to be ludicrous.
Of course that doesnt apply for Left Wing Jews
But that's a long way way from "close friend".
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10364503/Denmark-health-chief-says-Omicron-bringing-END-pandemic.html
Mandelson is a Labour centrist
Mandelson says Labour now ready for government
Mandelson allegedly is "a close friend of Epstein"
So we can sweep away any suggestion that Labour are now ready for government because....?
Its deeply tragically desperate. Even for you.
Apparently, the Great Global Currency Reset happened on Saturday - probably all those punters following my selections.
It's the way unrelated events such as forest fires in Colorado and the national bank closure in Iraq are all part of some huge "dark state" thing to bring about something .
As I've said before, I understand the primal desire to make order out of chaos but it's much easier to accept the world is chaotic and go from there.
Have a good evening.
https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1478059576893259777?s=20
I assume you would also think he wasnt a close friend of Ms Maxwell?
The question in our law would be whether the agreement was clearly intended to be in full settlement of the claimant's loss. If it was then she cannot make a claim against others. If it wasn't such a claim may be possible. Having looked at the full version of the agreement, and specifically the definition of second parties, it is possible that a court might construe "other defendants" narrowly so as to only include those potentially within the definition of second parties and it might be hard to argue that this included everyone for whom Epstein arranged sexual services. So, as you said, we shall have to see.
"HEREBY remise, release, acquit, satisfy, and forever discharge the said Second Parties and any other person or entity who could have been included as a potential defendant (“Other Potential Defendants”)"
Second parties are: "Jeffrey Epstein and his agent(s), attorney(s), predecessor(s), successor(s), heir(s), administrator(s), assign(s) and/or employee(s)" ..so not Andrew.
Could Andrew be another 'Potential Defendant' in the suit against Epstein? I don't see how, since this is about Epstein's actions and those who assisted Epstein in his sexual abuse and prostitution of Giuffre (two are mentioned in the original suit: Haley Robson and Sarah Kellen).
Was Andrew helping Epstein abuse Giuffre? I don't think anyone's suggesting that.
Was Andrew helping Epstein prostitute Giuffre? I think that's a stretch too - it would surely be akin to suggesting the buyer of a fake painting is aiding the faker.
So my non-lawyerly reading of the Giuffre - Epstein settlement is that it doesn't let Andrew off the hook.
Here's the original suit:
https://casetext.com/case/doe-v-epstein
If that is vaccine passports then so be it.
But I don't believe you are, for a moment.
So I won't.
If you want to charge them more then do so, but don’t other them
Have other nations othered people by your terms?
I posted Labour Friends of Epstein reckon they are ready for Government
Petey was a friend of Epstein and reckons Labour is ready for Government
You ploughed in with "So being Jewish makes Mandelson a "friend" of Epstein? Dear God thats awful even for you".
The end.
Google images has a single photo of Epstein and Mandelson together. And by together, I mean "in the same shop". There are no photos that a cursory Google image search finds of Mandelson and Maxwell.
You are making some fairly wild accusations off incredibly sparse evidence.
Because that is what sane, voluntarily, healthy unjabbed people are. Drink drivers, about to mow down dozens who will be refused hospital treatment if the NHS collapses
None of which is evidence of a "close friendship". Either that, or I have about 12,000 close friends.
David Bowie: Singer's estate sells rights to his entire body of work to WCM
https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-59860096
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022
Also, I wouldn't place too much faith in there being only one photo of PM and Epstein. Knowing what we do about Epstein, I find it hard to believe he wouldn't have tried to lure PM in some way nor that PM is smart enough to know
that sometimes it is best not to be photographed with certain people (especially given what happened to PM in the past).
The verdict is, this may be the end of "Scientific" American?
An astonishingly stupid column, written by a woman with no basic command of the facts. Trashing a brilliant scientist. I get that E O "Sociobiology" Wilson is not everyone's cup of tea, you can't adduce huge evidence that creatures order themselves according to evolutionary principles, which impact mentality, sociology and behaviour as much as physiology, without annoying the majorly religious or the insanely lefty, but usually the objections need scientific evidence, to be sustained in a major scientific journal
Here there is no evidence. It is Woke opinion which is offended
I am deeply uncomfortable with a small segment of society who have decided not to take an optimal medical treatment being identified as primarily to blame for the fact that successive government undervalued resiliency in the health (and other strategic) systems
Normal distribution....racist.....
Doc Brown "Everybody's Racist"
https://youtu.be/JrK_HVGOnUo
it is now fucking obvious that if you drink and drive, you kill people. As it is obvious that if you refuse the jab, and go about your business, you kill people. Probably many more than any drink driver
Religion, culture, ethnicity, whatever, it is no excuse. Even if your stupid church or ridiculous mosque teaches you that drink driving is your right, we do not tolerate these people when it comes to drink driving. And plague is much more pressing a concern than road deaths.
Have the jab or hide at home, forever. Enuff
Came down at 5:30 to find a blanket of lying snow. Still falling steadily. You?
It's beginning to look a lot like January.
1) Religiously
2) Ethnically
3) Culturally
3) "Self ID"
Mandelson does not qualify under 4, to the best of my knowledge. 1) is a little more complicated, but the Orthodox definition excludes him, and (again, to the the best of my knowledge) he's never shown any interest in any of the others, so it's moot. 3) is very subjective - hence why it's not a very good definition - but on the whole, probably not. That leaves 2), under which he's 50% Jewish - but then you get into the argument as to whether being Jewish qualifies as an ethnicity in the first place, and this is a complete mess of an argument, eg see here:
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/judge-rules-judaism-not-race-jewish-people-can-be-targeted-ncna896806
Very few political developments in the last 2 weeks
There have been enough that I feel exhausted.
But worse than that you are dull.
But I can see you have avoided answering @rcs1000 ’s questions
As the old saying goes: “the end is nigh”
Can't say I agree with all suggestions on this one, I'm unsure of the approach which does the least harm, but it does appear to me there is overcaution in respect of responding to people who, even now, refuse vaccination. Given the societal impacts there are many things short of forcing people that could be done to strongly encourage.
Given the things people whinge is an attempt to force them to do things (as has been pointed out your own solution would likely be decried as no different), some harsh encouragement at this point may as well be done.
There are photos of Jimmy Savile with all and sundry of the great and good.
That's what manipulative paedophiles do. Ingratiate themselves with folk of influence.
Although, that does raise an interesting question. If Epstein's aim in this was to blackmail powerful people, then why would he restrict his activities to girls? The obvious answer is that he was focused on his own pleasure and, if others used them, then that would be an additional benefit if they could be blackmailed. Still, might be worth asking.
Why will it now?
A third world legal system is a third world legal system.
Those who hang out and sleep with young girls, probably like to spend time with other people who do similarly. And I suspect this is also true of those whose interests lie in the other direction.
It seems to be form conspiracy ridden parts of the internet.
A drink driver is breaking the law and can be prosecuted for it.