It's clear that we should have followed New Zealand and Taiwan.
Oddly, Taiwan has wide use of masks and has done since the beginning but what would they know?
Nobody is allowed into Taiwan without 14 day strict quaratine....as soon as they stopped it, they got a spike in cases. Masks in that case are irrelevant.
@Farooq your problem is you seem to be, like Rochdale, incapable of seeing past "cases = BAD".
For me, as many cases as happen naturally occur is a GOOD thing. Especially if those who are bothered about the virus are protected by wearing a quality FFP2 etc mask while those who aren't, are not wearing one.
That segments the risk so that the right people are getting immunity more, which raises the herd immunity levels for the benefit of everyone including those having to wear a mask because they're afraid.
I don't accept the premise that preventing "cases" is a good thing. It may have been early on in the pandemic pre vaccines but it isn't anymore. I don't want cases reduced by NPIs, so them being reduced by NPIs isn't a benefit.
The BMJ article says how states (and nations) with mask mandates have had lower case rates. That is an argument AGAINST mask mandates for me. Those states have failed to get immunity.
No, you're just attacking straw men now. The only point I'm trying to make is that masks work. This is in response to your repeated false assertions that they do not. At no point have I said masks should be mandated, I'm just trying to bring some truth in to usurp your lies.
You seem on the verge in the above post of saying that NPIs do, in fact, work. Alongside a separate argument which is saying that, to paraphrase, "they are bad BECAUSE they work".
Well, it's progress, I guess. I hope you'll stop with your anti-science premises now. I won't even attempt to tackle your argument that it's good to let this spread, not now at least.
No shit Sherlock that masks work. That's why I advocated for them last year.
I dispute that mask mandates work post vaccines because inhibiting those who are not bothered about catching Covid and putting them on the same footing as those who are bothered is a terrible idea.
The only way out of this is immunity. The best way to get immunity is vaccines, we've done that.
The second best way to get immunity is for those who don't care if they get infected, to naturally get infected before those who do care if they do.
Inhibiting the spread of the virus post vaccines is stupid. The sane solution is those who are bothered wear masks to protect themselves and nobody else does.
So you've gone on journey from being right about the facts of masks to being wrong about them. What do you want, part credit? Most people prefer to go the other way but horses for courses I guess.
If you were confident in your justification that masks shouldn't be mandated, why go around spreading misinformation about mask efficacy? Why lie?
I never said masks have no efficacy.
I said mask mandates are bad.
There's a difference. I've said that many times now. How many different ways do I need to say it?
'Sadly there is a bullshit idea that has been spread that "your mask protects others"'
'If mask mandates had efficacy, we should surely have studies demonstrating that by now. Where are they?'
You, just in the last few days. I remember older stuff too, but I'm not doing your homework for you a third time. You've been trying to get people to think masks don't work for several weeks. It would be better if you used honest means to push your agenda. Philip, you've lied repeatedly.
Mask mandates. Mask mandates not masks. 🤦♂️
"If mask mandates had efficacy"
They don't. Mask mandates don't work because they suppress the virus for everyone but the virus is still endemic. It doesn't ensure those capable of defeating the virus get immunity. It doesn't suppress the virus away from those vulnerable, since the virus remains endemic.
Mandates don't work. Name any state or nation with mask mandates that has better immunity now than we do?
Mask mandates do work. It's right there in one of the studies I sent you earlier that you claim to have read. Jesus fucking Christ, how is it possible you cram so much stupid into just one head? You're like a fucking goldfish.
Define "work".
Working is getting out of restrictions and our normal life with high immunity so the virus isn't causing problems. How do mask mandates achieve that end?
They are counterproductive as they prevent the right people from getting infected, postponing the infection until down the road. They don't prevent infections, they just delay them for everyone which is not working.
But if you don't have mask mandates then you can have more infections amongst the low-risk, but if you are high-risk you can be better protected than everyone else.
Work in that they reduce transmission of the virus. And, in the right circumstances, they can keep the R below 1. That's it. It's a perfectly simple fact.
Once again I'm trying not to involve myself in the argument you're making beyond that which is "is that even desirable?" You make your case well but I'll note that there are arguments against what you're saying too. But I'm not going to enter into those right now, especially not with you because you have a tendency to resort easily to fallacies and even lies. And partially because I would be exploring an issue where I haven't decided where I stand. And you are a very poor person to do that with, for the reasons stated above: I don't trust you not to lie.
The one thing that concerns me most about what you're saying is I think high incidence leads to higher chances of mutations.I haven't read into it or thought much about it, but it "feels" like it's a gamble. But again, I'm not pushing a point of view there. I need to know more facts.
Then you have a completely different and in my view faintly ridiculous definition of working.
Using your logic, lockdowns work, so we should be under lockdown still.
Why is suppressing cases the aim? Suppressing cases should only ever be a means to an end.
My definition for working would be getting to the other side and out of restrictions with as few restrictions, hospitalisations and deaths as possible.
If you end up with more restrictions which suppresses cases in the short term, but overall leads to more hospitalisations and deaths, then you have failed all three of my tests but passed yours.
Do you really think fewer cases in the short term, but more restrictions, more deaths and more hospitalisations over the long term is "working"?
Yes, lockdowns DO work. That is not the same as advocating their use. Masks work. The whole point of them is to prevent transmission of infections. If you prefer everyone to become infected, don't use masks. What you do with the facts is up to you.
Working should be more than just preventing infections in the short term.
If you stop someone from getting infected today but they get infected next Thursday instead, then what purpose has that served?
You're missing the fact that life goes on for longer than today. Mask mandates don't work because they just kick the can with no solution.
You keep asking me to get into the other argument with you, Philip, and I keep telling you no. No means no.
That's fine, then don't complain when others say mask mandates don't work. Because they don't.
Preventing 'cases' is not the goal. It should never be the goal. Preventing 'cases' is never any more than a means to an end.
If you want to claim mask mandates work then they need to do more than just postpone infections from today to tomorrow.
And we're back to the start again. You're impervious to reason, and concretely anti-science on this. I'm done trying to dig you out. You have the science, you can wallow in your own stupidity.
I'm pro-science.
I have different goals than you. You've set a goal of preventing 'cases' today which the science shows doesn't even prevent future cases.
I have set a goal of reducing restrictions, hospitalisations and deaths as much as possible.
Preventing 'cases' today doesn't achieve that goal if that results in more hospitalisations and deaths tomorrow.
I wrote this the other day but Farooq would do well to look at daily case rates before and after the Nov lockdown. All that happened was cases were displaced in time. No sombrero was squished, the spike just got pushed to the right.
As you are calling for the wives and daughters of others to die to preserve the "liberty" of yourself and your own wife and daughter, I will take your perspectives on virtue under advisement.
I haven't called for anyone to die.
But do you have any evidence that mask mandates prevent deaths over the course of the pandemic, post-vaccines?
Give over. Your attitude consistently is "people die, so what?" You assume *others* will die.
Why do you assume he assumes that? Unless he has wholly irrational delusions of preferential immunity, he must be saying: these are risks we should all, including me and mine, be living with.
Because nobody goes out saying "let people die of Covid so I can do what I like in liberty" assuming it will be they and their own doing the dying.
What makes you say that? It's just wrong. I support the motorway speed limit being 70 vs 20 despite the additional risk of fatal crashes, on a convenience vs risk basis, in the knowledge that the enhanced risk applies to me every bit as much as it applies to everyone else. Presumably, so do you.
It's clear that we should have followed New Zealand and Taiwan.
Oddly, Taiwan has wide use of masks and has done since the beginning but what would they know?
Nobody is allowed into Taiwan without 14 day strict quaratine....as soon as they stopped it, they got a spike in cases. Masks in that case are irrelevant.
Masks are not irrelevant. You cannot conclude this.
The UK should have closed its borders months ago, I called for this over and over and I was shouted down.
Off the top of my head, how about something like a National Vaccination Day? Massive advertising campaign, vaccines available in as many locations as capacity can cope with, free public transport to get to a vaccination site, mobile vaccination units cruising around, employers and schools etc. have agreed to give time off work for vaccinations etc.... You get the idea.
Yes, a few big publicity events and days to get it done.
When New Zealand did a National Vaccination Day, 130,000 doses were administered across the country. That would be the equivalent of not far off 1.5 million here so it shows what is possible.
There was an all-day Jabathon on the television - that might be a step too far.
Today's Anecdata:
1) Around 1% wearing masks at a packed football game.
2) Mrs Foxys friend at the vax booster clinic says getting a lot of no shows (and not done elsewhere as would show on the screens)
3) I was pinged today (asymptomatic) so have been for a PCR. LFT negative. Not required to isolate as fully vaxxed, but will wear an FFP3* for this week.
4) Antivax friend of my neighbour died of covid this week.
Looks bad to me. Leicester shaping up for a horrible holiday period. Stay safe out there...
*a correctly fitted FFP3 filters out aerosol viruses, an FFP2 larger droplets. They are far better and the results from Addenbrookes show that they should be used more by staff.
Can I comment about 2? I am now post 6 months from jab 2 by 6 days, yet in Wales we still have to wait for an invite from our health board in Wales. This is so infuriating especially in the light of Mrs Foxy's clinic turnout.
After watching Strictly - beautiful people in great shape wearing gorgeous costumes and fake tan - going straight to this fat pasty faced bastard, a bloke who can't even use a hairbrush and looks like he's slept a fortnight in his clothes, is pretty jarring. Just go, man.
It's clear that we should have followed New Zealand and Taiwan.
Oddly, Taiwan has wide use of masks and has done since the beginning but what would they know?
Nobody is allowed into Taiwan without 14 day strict quaratine....as soon as they stopped it, they got a spike in cases. Masks in that case are irrelevant.
Masks are not irrelevant. You cannot conclude this.
The UK should have closed its borders months ago, I called for this over and over and I was shouted down.
We are an island.
Nobody can get into society of Taiwan without effectively being negative. As soon as they got rid of that, they saw a big spike and they reinstated it.
It's clear that we should have followed New Zealand and Taiwan.
Oddly, Taiwan has wide use of masks and has done since the beginning but what would they know?
Nobody is allowed into Taiwan without 14 day strict quaratine....as soon as they stopped it, they got a spike in cases. Masks in that case are irrelevant.
Masks are not irrelevant. You cannot conclude this.
The UK should have closed its borders months ago, I called for this over and over and I was shouted down.
We are an island.
Nobody can go out into society in Taiwan effectively without being negative.
That is absolutely the approach we should take. It's clearly the only one that works.
It's clear that we should have followed New Zealand and Taiwan.
Oddly, Taiwan has wide use of masks and has done since the beginning but what would they know?
Nobody is allowed into Taiwan without 14 day strict quaratine....as soon as they stopped it, they got a spike in cases. Masks in that case are irrelevant.
Masks are not irrelevant. You cannot conclude this.
The UK should have closed its borders months ago, I called for this over and over and I was shouted down.
We are an island.
Nobody can go out into society in Taiwan effectively without being negative.
Nor in the UK, the PM’s reputation having sunk so low.
Mrs Capitano's year 5s+6s are suffering: several cases of kids off for a fortnight, coming back pale and having lost weight. Covid has ripped through several primary schools in our local area.
After watching Strictly - beautiful people in great shape wearing gorgeous costumes and fake tan - going straight to this fat pasty faced bastard, a bloke who can't even use a hairbrush and looks like he's slept a fortnight in his clothes, is pretty jarring. Just go, man.
You feel beautiful people in great shape wearing gorgeous costumes and fake tan are inherently suited to government?
Per the central thesis of our rulers for the last 18 months, given those numbers South Africa will have no functioning health system within 10 days. Lets see.
The South Africans themselves seem insanely relaxed about the gathering apocalypse.
I may have missed something, but aren't they faring better because of the good weather? As I recall the plan earlier in the year (in the UK) was to let the virus spread in the warm months; so perhaps this is a factor in SA
After watching Strictly - beautiful people in great shape wearing gorgeous costumes and fake tan - going straight to this fat pasty faced bastard, a bloke who can't even use a hairbrush and looks like he's slept a fortnight in his clothes, is pretty jarring. Just go, man.
You feel beautiful people in great shape wearing gorgeous costumes and fake tan are inherently suited to government?
Couldn't be much worse than the current Cabinet tbf.
I suspected something was up. All of my relatives in their 30s booked in last night for boosters before Christmas. Today they went to check out the local walk in centres, and all came home jabbed.
Telling people they can walk in for a jab at some vaccine centres is going to lead to every vaccine centre overwhelmed with walk ins.
It’s that queue theory innit! When you walk past a bar and there’s a queue you want to be in there - everyone wants a vaccine because everyone wants one…..!! Sneaky!
Per the central thesis of our rulers for the last 18 months, given those numbers South Africa will have no functioning health system within 10 days. Lets see.
The South Africans themselves seem insanely relaxed about the gathering apocalypse.
Edit - not being negative, I'd be really happy if that was achieved, of course.
I don't see how given only 1/3 of vaccine centres are operating from previius push. Even with more opening, not going to exceed what we did even at peak jabbing.
Edit - not being negative, I'd be really happy if that was achieved, of course.
It's much less ambitious than it looks. You can't have your booster if you have symptoms, and if you ask them every 20 something in the country will have Covid by xmas day anyway.
Telling people they can walk in for a jab at some vaccine centres is going to lead to every vaccine centre overwhelmed with walk ins.
I think getting people to queue makes sense, it increases capacity utilisation quite substantially and it also creates an environment of scarcity of a popular product which encourages people to queue up for fear of missing out.
JCVI need a solid arse kicking for their possing around with child doses and boosters.
Yes, at the time I said I thought it was the wrong call but it was a marginal decision. Hindsight is proving it was both wrong and anything but marginal unfortunately.
Off the top of my head, how about something like a National Vaccination Day? Massive advertising campaign, vaccines available in as many locations as capacity can cope with, free public transport to get to a vaccination site, mobile vaccination units cruising around, employers and schools etc. have agreed to give time off work for vaccinations etc.... You get the idea.
Yes, a few big publicity events and days to get it done.
When New Zealand did a National Vaccination Day, 130,000 doses were administered across the country. That would be the equivalent of not far off 1.5 million here so it shows what is possible.
There was an all-day Jabathon on the television - that might be a step too far.
Today's Anecdata:
1) Around 1% wearing masks at a packed football game.
2) Mrs Foxys friend at the vax booster clinic says getting a lot of no shows (and not done elsewhere as would show on the screens)
3) I was pinged today (asymptomatic) so have been for a PCR. LFT negative. Not required to isolate as fully vaxxed, but will wear an FFP3* for this week.
4) Antivax friend of my neighbour died of covid this week.
Looks bad to me. Leicester shaping up for a horrible holiday period. Stay safe out there...
*a correctly fitted FFP3 filters out aerosol viruses, an FFP2 larger droplets. They are far better and the results from Addenbrookes show that they should be used more by staff.
I may be shouting in the wind, but I would like to see a lot of effort put into reusable mask systems that are designed to be worn continuously in medical settings. Stuff that has *no* gaps, blown, cool air, excellent vision and auditory compatibility. It can be done - I've used stuff for welding high chrome steels that was actually pleasant to wear.
Couldn't he for once have found a suit that fits him and been a bit more professional? This is honestly pathetic
It shouldn’t matter but it does. It’s a national embarrassment how slovenly and scruffy he looks.
The hair doesn’t make sense as he won’t be doing it himself, but image experts. Tbf there’s not much you can do with a few long clumps hanging from a decaying cheese. The front and right was actually okay, had he messed the left himself after it was done, he is a bit nervous fidgeter with his hands.
Clearly SAGE have told him Omicron isnt much milder, or not sufficiently milder to not overwhelm the NHS.
We are back to flatten the curve.
Indeed.
I am afraid it is quite ridiculous not to extend restrictions into the hospitality industry and large gatherings. Masks should be compulsory throughout at the moment.
Perhaps if the Government hadn't installed complacency and been utterly useless yet again over the summer we wouldn't be in this mess
Your partisanship is showing.
You call it partisanship, I call it the truth.
I have warned about this for months. Complacency setting in again.
No politician would over rule the JCVI, not Boris, not Starmer. Its the equivalent of expecting a leader to advocate taking unregulated medicines ala Trump.
Is that feasible? Everyone over 18 offered a booster by December 31st?
Yes. I know how these targets work. Everyone will be invited*, and therefore offered a booster. They might well not get them by 31st of course, they will have been offered though...
* only those more than 3 months after their second, and not if they test positive in the last month, etc
JCVI need a solid arse kicking for their possing around with child doses and boosters.
Yes, at the time I said I thought it was the wrong call but it was a marginal decision. Hindsight is proving it was both wrong and anything but marginal unfortunately.
It was only marginal when JCVI used a 5% total infection rate (IIRC) for children. Yes, they seriously were trying to say that 5% of children would get COVID over the total course of the epidemic....
Comments
Desperate performance.
Who thought this was a good idea?
The UK should have closed its borders months ago, I called for this over and over and I was shouted down.
We are an island.
Everyone over 18 who is eligible to be offered a booster jab by the end of December
https://twitter.com/catherine_mayer/status/1470122520351318019
Mrs Capitano's year 5s+6s are suffering: several cases of kids off for a fortnight, coming back pale and having lost weight. Covid has ripped through several primary schools in our local area.
Johnson saves his job. Get boosted now!
Telling people they can walk in for a jab at some vaccine centres is going to lead to every vaccine centre overwhelmed with walk ins.
Edit - not being negative, I'd be really happy if that was achieved, of course.
Nobody can honestly have said that this was a good way to present this
"'Get Brexit Done' worked. It was our great success. Can't we just do that again?"
"What, 'Get Covid Done'?"
"Bit negative."
"'Get Shot For The Third Time'?"
"Bit American."
"How about 'Get Boosted Now'?"
"Genius! A snappy slogan and everything will fall into place, just like last time."
For the good of the nation, as the Japanese PM did, he should resign.
We are back to flatten the curve.
"Two jabs to normality" they said and the faithful lapped it up
Like he has anything to do with looking after the baby (!)
Strange that Tim M on Twitter said the same thing
I hope they have good queue management in place.
Boris actually sounded OK on the radio. Perhaps the medium suits him better.
Still unlikely, but if we see 15m that'd still be great given the holiday period. If the ramp up is underwhelming we'll end up with 10m more.
If everyone can be boosted by the end of the year that would be incredible.
He doesn't give a toss, what an embarrassing man
I am afraid it is quite ridiculous not to extend restrictions into the hospitality industry and large gatherings. Masks should be compulsory throughout at the moment.
I have warned about this for months. Complacency setting in again.
When they miss it will be OUR fault when he locks us down on Boxing Day
The NHS collapsing will put the Tories out for decades.
* only those more than 3 months after their second, and not if they test positive in the last month, etc
As I said to my wife - why is he telling us we need more boosters, rather than actually frigging delivering more boosters.
If it was so super important why did he put Maggie 'literally unknown' Throup as vax minister?