Since the pandemic began excess deaths represent a meagre 0.2% of the population, almost all of that was pre-vaccinations. Two years of disruption is not a price worth paying for 0.2% of people.
Post-vaccinations its simply not worth putting life on hold any longer. The NHS should abolish all distancing etc, restore its capacity, and get on with life.
If the NHS is under pressure its because its restricted its capacity. We should stop trying to stop the spread of the virus and let nature take its course, relying on vaccines to prevent the worst of it.
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Presenters response was to comment that it showed how misguided many callers were.
The Groupthink is strong that "something must be done, this is something, so this must be done".
To even suggest that death is a part of the circle of life and not to be prevented at all costs is now viewed as a monstrous suggestion by some people.
You don't think a thousand extra deaths a week, many of them avoidable, is enough?
I don't think its too many.
Most deaths are either the unvaccinated who can own their own choices, or people who are very vulnerable and could die from the common cold or flu or anything else.
NPIs made sense pre-PIs, not anymore. If a thousand 'extra' deaths is the 'new normal' then that's the new normal and that's what we have to live with, though I'm sceptical that excess deaths actually are a thousand a week.
You seemed concerned about people drowning in the channel in far smaller numbers.
They're healthy young people dying a horrible and preventable death and there's a simple solution to stop it happening that doesn't restrict the rights of anyone living here.
So you're a "zero crossings" believer then? Well, good luck with that.
I think crossings should be made safely and legally via humane routes, via proper planes or boats and not dinghies.
If anyone who crosses in a dinghy is instantly deported to a third party nation like Rwanda then the dinghies would stop overnight.
We should then offer MORE asylum to more people, but via proper and safe routes not via people smugglers.
I don't mind the zero covid crew. They have their own, internally logical, world view which prioritises stamping down on the spread of the disease at the expense of most other things. It is based on at least a version / interpretation of science and the facts. I don't agree with them but they are an important part of the conversation.
Likewise the libertarians / anti-maskers on the backbenches. They have their own internally logical world view which prioritises individual liberty and resisting the long arm of the state at the expense of controlling the spread of the virus. I don't agree with them either and think they're indulging somewhat in histrionics, but we need that voice in there too.
This is how government and public opinion gets the ability to triangulate and bring the public with it. What is more objectionable, and needs to be countered wherever it arises, is basic misinformation and pseudo-science. That includes anti-vax conspiracy theories but also the idea that the government has a cunning plan to lock us all down forever, or that this is some kind of eugenics experiment by the Tories, as well as a lot of the nonsense and moral panic around things like people gathering outdoors, or fist and elbow pumps (over a year since it became evident this thing mainly spreads in the air not from fomites)
Good post, but point of order. Some of the anti-maskers are also purveyors of misinformation. Masks work. The arguments against mandating them are forceful enough that they don't need to rely on fake news, yet they do.
Went to see my GP this morning because of headaches. Getting an "emergency" CT scan some time before Christmas and advised to go private for my respiratory issues because nothing is going to happen soon. Told by the GP that the waiting time for gynaecology (not for me, of course) is now 2 years. He sees no prospects of anything improving in the foreseeable.
My GP is an excellent chap and expressed frustration at how many times he is now recommending private health care. He said he is a strong believer in the NHS but the long term underfunding (in his view) has simply meant it cannot cope with something like Covid and the reductions in capacity that the safeguards bring about.
Pretty sobering way to start the day.
'Underfunding' is the suggestion about NHS, as here, and more or less everything else the tax payer pays for.
But curiously we are at a moment of record highs in: tax levels, tax take, tax proportions of GDP, public spending, borrowing and debt.
Every issue, taken one at a time, required increased tax and spend - try listening for a few days to Today on R4 and count up the times it is the answer.
So something is missing in this discussion. And it feels insufficiently wide in its scope. It isn't possible or practicable that more tax take/borrowing is the universal panacea.
I also think that there are 2 tiers of the NHS as well. Front line crisis services generally run flat out with phenomenal efforts by those involved. But there are also large sections where productivity seems astonishingly low and where money seeps away. Poor management allows this to be tolerated for far too long. We simply cannot afford this anymore.
Surge capacity for emergencies comes from depleting capacity for routine elective work. So the radiologists doing Thoracic CTPA scans are not doing head scans etc.
The problem is more to do with physical resources than funding though. We cannot catch up on outpatients without more clinic space, nor staff maternity units without trained midwives, nor run extra operating lists without theatre staff.
Went to see my GP this morning because of headaches. Getting an "emergency" CT scan some time before Christmas and advised to go private for my respiratory issues because nothing is going to happen soon. Told by the GP that the waiting time for gynaecology (not for me, of course) is now 2 years. He sees no prospects of anything improving in the foreseeable.
My GP is an excellent chap and expressed frustration at how many times he is now recommending private health care. He said he is a strong believer in the NHS but the long term underfunding (in his view) has simply meant it cannot cope with something like Covid and the reductions in capacity that the safeguards bring about.
Pretty sobering way to start the day.
'Underfunding' is the suggestion about NHS, as here, and more or less everything else the tax payer pays for.
But curiously we are at a moment of record highs in: tax levels, tax take, tax proportions of GDP, public spending, borrowing and debt.
Every issue, taken one at a time, required increased tax and spend - try listening for a few days to Today on R4 and count up the times it is the answer.
So something is missing in this discussion. And it feels insufficiently wide in its scope. It isn't possible or practicable that more tax take/borrowing is the universal panacea.
I also think that there are 2 tiers of the NHS as well. Front line crisis services generally run flat out with phenomenal efforts by those involved. But there are also large sections where productivity seems astonishingly low and where money seeps away. Poor management allows this to be tolerated for far too long. We simply cannot afford this anymore.
The entire structure is an absurd waste of money. Abolish the marketisation and save a fortune which can be reinvested back into front line health.
In the meantime why can't the government pay private providers to clear the backlog? If Labour can hire the private sector why can't the Tories...?
There is no simple way of managing 1.3m employees and over £150bn of expenditure. Trying to claim that there are simple or simplistic solutions like that dodges the much more difficult choices we face.
Very true - but we can streamline it. We don't need to pay GPs to form CCGs and spend all their time procuring healthcare just for their specific CCG from a market.
Went to see my GP this morning because of headaches. Getting an "emergency" CT scan some time before Christmas and advised to go private for my respiratory issues because nothing is going to happen soon. Told by the GP that the waiting time for gynaecology (not for me, of course) is now 2 years. He sees no prospects of anything improving in the foreseeable.
My GP is an excellent chap and expressed frustration at how many times he is now recommending private health care. He said he is a strong believer in the NHS but the long term underfunding (in his view) has simply meant it cannot cope with something like Covid and the reductions in capacity that the safeguards bring about.
Pretty sobering way to start the day.
'Underfunding' is the suggestion about NHS, as here, and more or less everything else the tax payer pays for.
But curiously we are at a moment of record highs in: tax levels, tax take, tax proportions of GDP, public spending, borrowing and debt.
Every issue, taken one at a time, required increased tax and spend - try listening for a few days to Today on R4 and count up the times it is the answer.
So something is missing in this discussion. And it feels insufficiently wide in its scope. It isn't possible or practicable that more tax take/borrowing is the universal panacea.
I also think that there are 2 tiers of the NHS as well. Front line crisis services generally run flat out with phenomenal efforts by those involved. But there are also large sections where productivity seems astonishingly low and where money seeps away. Poor management allows this to be tolerated for far too long. We simply cannot afford this anymore.
The entire structure is an absurd waste of money. Abolish the marketisation and save a fortune which can be reinvested back into front line health.
In the meantime why can't the government pay private providers to clear the backlog? If Labour can hire the private sector why can't the Tories...?
There is no simple way of managing 1.3m employees and over £150bn of expenditure. Trying to claim that there are simple or simplistic solutions like that dodges the much more difficult choices we face.
Quite right. There are a number of simplistic dodges that avoid real issues. The BBC should dedicate itself to never allowing anyone in public life to get away with them.
Top among them are 'spend more money' without having to account for raising it, where it should stand among all the other priorities and why, or what to stop doing to find it
and
focussing on something called 'front line services' as if we can pay indefinite amounts to paramedics and nurses and doctors in A&E while allowing the roof to fall in, the ambulances to be unmaintained ,the electrics to catch fire and the payroll to be ignored.
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Presenters response was to comment that it showed how misguided many callers were.
The Groupthink is strong that "something must be done, this is something, so this must be done".
To even suggest that death is a part of the circle of life and not to be prevented at all costs is now viewed as a monstrous suggestion by some people.
You don't think a thousand extra deaths a week, many of them avoidable, is enough?
I don't think its too many.
Most deaths are either the unvaccinated who can own their own choices, or people who are very vulnerable and could die from the common cold or flu or anything else.
NPIs made sense pre-PIs, not anymore. If a thousand 'extra' deaths is the 'new normal' then that's the new normal and that's what we have to live with, though I'm sceptical that excess deaths actually are a thousand a week.
You seemed concerned about people drowning in the channel in far smaller numbers.
They're healthy young people dying a horrible and preventable death and there's a simple solution to stop it happening that doesn't restrict the rights of anyone living here.
So you're a "zero crossings" believer then? Well, good luck with that.
I think crossings should be made safely and legally via humane routes, via proper planes or boats and not dinghies.
If anyone who crosses in a dinghy is instantly deported to a third party nation like Rwanda then the dinghies would stop overnight.
We should then offer MORE asylum to more people, but via proper and safe routes not via people smugglers.
Went to see my GP this morning because of headaches. Getting an "emergency" CT scan some time before Christmas and advised to go private for my respiratory issues because nothing is going to happen soon. Told by the GP that the waiting time for gynaecology (not for me, of course) is now 2 years. He sees no prospects of anything improving in the foreseeable.
My GP is an excellent chap and expressed frustration at how many times he is now recommending private health care. He said he is a strong believer in the NHS but the long term underfunding (in his view) has simply meant it cannot cope with something like Covid and the reductions in capacity that the safeguards bring about.
Pretty sobering way to start the day.
NHS, of course, is devolved to the Scottish Govt in your part of the world. Perhaps if they spent less on ramping up salaries, providing "free" baby-boxes, free bikes, free tuition fees, and various other perks for the middle-classes, there'd be a bit more for front-line health provision.
But, as we know, Nicola is politically bullet-proof, and nothing much will change however bad services get.
Rant over!
Her Teflon shielding is starting to wear a little thin. Interesting article in the Courier today be Jim Spence: "Is independence a busted flush?" The response to their virtual conference has been pretty negative well beyond the usual suspects (like me). Subscription only unfortunately.
Spence is of the Albanian persuasion isn’t he? I suspect he would prefer Indy to be a busted flush rather than the woke hell of cops dancing at Pride and non binary pronouns that inhabits his fevered imaginings.
I don't mind the zero covid crew. They have their own, internally logical, world view which prioritises stamping down on the spread of the disease at the expense of most other things. It is based on at least a version / interpretation of science and the facts. I don't agree with them but they are an important part of the conversation.
Likewise the libertarians / anti-maskers on the backbenches. They have their own internally logical world view which prioritises individual liberty and resisting the long arm of the state at the expense of controlling the spread of the virus. I don't agree with them either and think they're indulging somewhat in histrionics, but we need that voice in there too.
This is how government and public opinion gets the ability to triangulate and bring the public with it. What is more objectionable, and needs to be countered wherever it arises, is basic misinformation and pseudo-science. That includes anti-vax conspiracy theories but also the idea that the government has a cunning plan to lock us all down forever, or that this is some kind of eugenics experiment by the Tories, as well as a lot of the nonsense and moral panic around things like people gathering outdoors, or fist and elbow pumps (over a year since it became evident this thing mainly spreads in the air not from fomites)
I agree in principle, but the problem you have here is that both the 'zero covid ' and 'libertarian' visions have become deeply politicised and thrive on easy answers and misinformation; in their most extreme forms they are not that different to the mad conspiracy theories that circulate amongst parts of the population.
Edit - this is a good twitter account of a zero covid fundamentalist (probably a parody, but who knows)
Went to see my GP this morning because of headaches. Getting an "emergency" CT scan some time before Christmas and advised to go private for my respiratory issues because nothing is going to happen soon. Told by the GP that the waiting time for gynaecology (not for me, of course) is now 2 years. He sees no prospects of anything improving in the foreseeable.
My GP is an excellent chap and expressed frustration at how many times he is now recommending private health care. He said he is a strong believer in the NHS but the long term underfunding (in his view) has simply meant it cannot cope with something like Covid and the reductions in capacity that the safeguards bring about.
Pretty sobering way to start the day.
NHS, of course, is devolved to the Scottish Govt in your part of the world. Perhaps if they spent less on ramping up salaries, providing "free" baby-boxes, free bikes, free tuition fees, and various other perks for the middle-classes, there'd be a bit more for front-line health provision.
But, as we know, Nicola is politically bullet-proof, and nothing much will change however bad services get.
Rant over!
Her Teflon shielding is starting to wear a little thin. Interesting article in the Courier today be Jim Spence: "Is independence a busted flush?" The response to their virtual conference has been pretty negative well beyond the usual suspects (like me). Subscription only unfortunately.
Spence is of the Albanian persuasion isn’t he? I suspect he would prefer Indy to be a busted flush rather than the woke hell of cops dancing at Pride and non binary pronouns that inhabits his fevered imaginings.
Since the pandemic began excess deaths represent a meagre 0.2% of the population, almost all of that was pre-vaccinations. Two years of disruption is not a price worth paying for 0.2% of people.
Post-vaccinations its simply not worth putting life on hold any longer. The NHS should abolish all distancing etc, restore its capacity, and get on with life.
If the NHS is under pressure its because its restricted its capacity. We should stop trying to stop the spread of the virus and let nature take its course, relying on vaccines to prevent the worst of it.
There does seem to be a burgeoning crisis in the NHS which is a direct function of its internal distancing measures (I hadn't even realised it was still subject to such measures, but have recently read a number of articles outlining this). As you imply, if covid distancing measures are preventing people from getting cancer treatments, CT scans, x-rays and the like that seems to me to a be a stupid trade-off that we shouldn't be making. I would be interested in the views of @Foxy on this, and any other front-line medics on the site.
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Presenters response was to comment that it showed how misguided many callers were.
The Groupthink is strong that "something must be done, this is something, so this must be done".
To even suggest that death is a part of the circle of life and not to be prevented at all costs is now viewed as a monstrous suggestion by some people.
You don't think a thousand extra deaths a week, many of them avoidable, is enough?
I don't think its too many.
Most deaths are either the unvaccinated who can own their own choices, or people who are very vulnerable and could die from the common cold or flu or anything else.
NPIs made sense pre-PIs, not anymore. If a thousand 'extra' deaths is the 'new normal' then that's the new normal and that's what we have to live with, though I'm sceptical that excess deaths actually are a thousand a week.
You seemed concerned about people drowning in the channel in far smaller numbers.
They're healthy young people dying a horrible and preventable death and there's a simple solution to stop it happening that doesn't restrict the rights of anyone living here.
So you're a "zero crossings" believer then? Well, good luck with that.
I think crossings should be made safely and legally via humane routes, via proper planes or boats and not dinghies.
If anyone who crosses in a dinghy is instantly deported to a third party nation like Rwanda then the dinghies would stop overnight.
We should then offer MORE asylum to more people, but via proper and safe routes not via people smugglers.
It's touching when your naivety is so openly on display. You can't completely stop people entering the country illegally, even with the policy you describe. Oh you might be able to reduce it at a certain cost, but dinghies and stowaways and overstaying visas and even people walking across the Irish border will still happen. And sometimes people will die in the attempt. You can't legislate it away, you can't public awareness it away. Zero illegal immigration is a myth.
Went to see my GP this morning because of headaches. Getting an "emergency" CT scan some time before Christmas and advised to go private for my respiratory issues because nothing is going to happen soon. Told by the GP that the waiting time for gynaecology (not for me, of course) is now 2 years. He sees no prospects of anything improving in the foreseeable.
My GP is an excellent chap and expressed frustration at how many times he is now recommending private health care. He said he is a strong believer in the NHS but the long term underfunding (in his view) has simply meant it cannot cope with something like Covid and the reductions in capacity that the safeguards bring about.
Pretty sobering way to start the day.
Hope things work out for you. On the NHS - something needs to change. I pay to go to the vet for my animals. Its expensive, but thats the cost. Visiting the GP is 'free', except its not really free, we just don't see the price. I have come to believe that we need private GP's that can prescribe NHS medication (pay your 40 quid, or whatever the GP visit is, pick up a prescription, take it Boots/Lloyds/Well etc). Plus I also think patients need to be made more aware of what medical care costs - GP visits should still be free, but you get a note saying how much it has 'cost'. That and prescription medicine - the true cost should be shown somewhere.
We need a politically neutral debate on the NHS, but sadly its been a political football for too long.
How can you have a politically neutral debate on the NHS? Resource allocation and service funding is core politics.
You cannot. But you might just have a more honest and informed one (I confess to being an incorrigible optimist)...
And it doesn't even require both sides to agree, just for one or other to see the benefit to themselves of this approach.
Really interesting read, thanks.
But that would require politicians to admit that they are really arguing about whether we should spend 35% or 40%* of GDP on public spending.
Rather than a Moral Crusade Against The Heretic Unbelievers opposite.
*Randomly selected numbers.
It would - but the point of the research referenced in the article seems to be that such honesty might actually benefit them electorally, even if their opponents don't reciprocate.
Went to see my GP this morning because of headaches. Getting an "emergency" CT scan some time before Christmas and advised to go private for my respiratory issues because nothing is going to happen soon. Told by the GP that the waiting time for gynaecology (not for me, of course) is now 2 years. He sees no prospects of anything improving in the foreseeable.
My GP is an excellent chap and expressed frustration at how many times he is now recommending private health care. He said he is a strong believer in the NHS but the long term underfunding (in his view) has simply meant it cannot cope with something like Covid and the reductions in capacity that the safeguards bring about.
Pretty sobering way to start the day.
NHS, of course, is devolved to the Scottish Govt in your part of the world. Perhaps if they spent less on ramping up salaries, providing "free" baby-boxes, free bikes, free tuition fees, and various other perks for the middle-classes, there'd be a bit more for front-line health provision.
But, as we know, Nicola is politically bullet-proof, and nothing much will change however bad services get.
Rant over!
Her Teflon shielding is starting to wear a little thin. Interesting article in the Courier today be Jim Spence: "Is independence a busted flush?" The response to their virtual conference has been pretty negative well beyond the usual suspects (like me). Subscription only unfortunately.
Spence is of the Albanian persuasion isn’t he? I suspect he would prefer Indy to be a busted flush rather than the woke hell of cops dancing at Pride and non binary pronouns that inhabits his fevered imaginings.
Albanian?
= Alba
Diminutive of the Albagensian heresy.
Kill them all! God will know his own.
Alternatively, they're hardly breaking 2% in the polls so just let them get on with it.
Work Christmas do cancelled. The Robert Smithson Law in action.
Julia HB was on Talk Radio earlier saying this is what would now happen. Either mass cancellations "to be on safe side"and/or individuals just not going in the end because they don't want to be pinged by T&T just before xmas break.
Went to see my GP this morning because of headaches. Getting an "emergency" CT scan some time before Christmas and advised to go private for my respiratory issues because nothing is going to happen soon. Told by the GP that the waiting time for gynaecology (not for me, of course) is now 2 years. He sees no prospects of anything improving in the foreseeable.
My GP is an excellent chap and expressed frustration at how many times he is now recommending private health care. He said he is a strong believer in the NHS but the long term underfunding (in his view) has simply meant it cannot cope with something like Covid and the reductions in capacity that the safeguards bring about.
Pretty sobering way to start the day.
NHS, of course, is devolved to the Scottish Govt in your part of the world. Perhaps if they spent less on ramping up salaries, providing "free" baby-boxes, free bikes, free tuition fees, and various other perks for the middle-classes, there'd be a bit more for front-line health provision.
But, as we know, Nicola is politically bullet-proof, and nothing much will change however bad services get.
Rant over!
Her Teflon shielding is starting to wear a little thin. Interesting article in the Courier today be Jim Spence: "Is independence a busted flush?" The response to their virtual conference has been pretty negative well beyond the usual suspects (like me). Subscription only unfortunately.
Spence is of the Albanian persuasion isn’t he? I suspect he would prefer Indy to be a busted flush rather than the woke hell of cops dancing at Pride and non binary pronouns that inhabits his fevered imaginings.
Albanian?
= Alba
Oh, I thought that they were the ones who really wanted independence as opposed to those wanting to make a living campaigning about it.
This fits in with my pretty close observations of the scene. People are talking about the election in shops and win or lose you get the firm impression the Lib Dems are doing well, borne out by the betting which still has them coming in well. However anything can happen, bad weather on polling day, a Labour win tomorrow to stiffen their vote, a Conservative hard campaign in the last week, many factors at play.
I don't mind the zero covid crew. They have their own, internally logical, world view which prioritises stamping down on the spread of the disease at the expense of most other things. It is based on at least a version / interpretation of science and the facts. I don't agree with them but they are an important part of the conversation.
Likewise the libertarians / anti-maskers on the backbenches. They have their own internally logical world view which prioritises individual liberty and resisting the long arm of the state at the expense of controlling the spread of the virus. I don't agree with them either and think they're indulging somewhat in histrionics, but we need that voice in there too.
This is how government and public opinion gets the ability to triangulate and bring the public with it. What is more objectionable, and needs to be countered wherever it arises, is basic misinformation and pseudo-science. That includes anti-vax conspiracy theories but also the idea that the government has a cunning plan to lock us all down forever, or that this is some kind of eugenics experiment by the Tories, as well as a lot of the nonsense and moral panic around things like people gathering outdoors, or fist and elbow pumps (over a year since it became evident this thing mainly spreads in the air not from fomites)
I agree in principle, but the problem you have here is that both the 'zero covid ' and 'libertarian' visions have become deeply politicised and thrive on easy answers and misinformation; in their most extreme forms they are not that different to the mad conspiracy theories that circulate amongst parts of the population.
There may be some similarities in thinking now between libertarians and conspiracy Covid denialists but that doesn't mean they're the same thing at all.
I have argued here with people spreading conspiracies, claiming Ivermictin (sp?) works, that Covid isn't real etc . . . these people are crazy.
The libertarian thinking is in my humble opinion to recognise that Covid is real, not deny that, but to say that doesn't justify having restrictions. I fully accept and do not deny that may mean more people may die that would have without Covid, that is simply reality and it is something we can live with.
The denialists and the libertarians both want no restrictions, but for very different reasons.
Since the pandemic began excess deaths represent a meagre 0.2% of the population, almost all of that was pre-vaccinations. Two years of disruption is not a price worth paying for 0.2% of people.
Post-vaccinations its simply not worth putting life on hold any longer. The NHS should abolish all distancing etc, restore its capacity, and get on with life.
If the NHS is under pressure its because its restricted its capacity. We should stop trying to stop the spread of the virus and let nature take its course, relying on vaccines to prevent the worst of it.
There does seem to be a burgeoning crisis in the NHS which is a direct function of its internal distancing measures (I hadn't even realised it was still subject to such measures, but have recently read a number of articles outlining this). As you imply, if covid distancing measures are preventing people from getting cancer treatments, CT scans, x-rays and the like that seems to me to a be a stupid trade-off that we shouldn't be making. I would be interested in the views of @Foxy on this, and any other front-line medics on the site.
In my department it isn't social distancing measures that are slowing things down, it is staff shortages. People have left, retired, long term sick, reduced hours etc, while trainees are over a year behind and not yet ready to be released onto the Great British Public.
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Presenters response was to comment that it showed how misguided many callers were.
The Groupthink is strong that "something must be done, this is something, so this must be done".
To even suggest that death is a part of the circle of life and not to be prevented at all costs is now viewed as a monstrous suggestion by some people.
You don't think a thousand extra deaths a week, many of them avoidable, is enough?
I don't think its too many.
Most deaths are either the unvaccinated who can own their own choices, or people who are very vulnerable and could die from the common cold or flu or anything else.
NPIs made sense pre-PIs, not anymore. If a thousand 'extra' deaths is the 'new normal' then that's the new normal and that's what we have to live with, though I'm sceptical that excess deaths actually are a thousand a week.
You seemed concerned about people drowning in the channel in far smaller numbers.
They're healthy young people dying a horrible and preventable death and there's a simple solution to stop it happening that doesn't restrict the rights of anyone living here.
So you're a "zero crossings" believer then? Well, good luck with that.
I think crossings should be made safely and legally via humane routes, via proper planes or boats and not dinghies.
If anyone who crosses in a dinghy is instantly deported to a third party nation like Rwanda then the dinghies would stop overnight.
We should then offer MORE asylum to more people, but via proper and safe routes not via people smugglers.
It's touching when your naivety is so openly on display. You can't completely stop people entering the country illegally, even with the policy you describe. Oh you might be able to reduce it at a certain cost, but dinghies and stowaways and overstaying visas and even people walking across the Irish border will still happen. And sometimes people will die in the attempt. You can't legislate it away, you can't public awareness it away. Zero illegal immigration is a myth.
People don't drown in the sea if they overstay visas, people don't die walking across the border, people don't die if they've got here on a plane. I don't care about any of that, I'm OK with that.
I don't care if we don't have zero illegal immigration. People smugglers on a deadly crossing is a different matter.
Work Christmas do cancelled. The Robert Smithson Law in action.
Julia HB was on Talk Radio earlier saying this is what would now happen. Either mass cancellations "to be on safe side"and/or individuals just not going in the end because they don't want to be pinged by T&T just before xmas break.
In order to get pinged you have to have come into contact with an omicronian don’t you? The odds of that must be infinitesimal - yet the public don’t understand odds.
This fits in with my pretty close observations of the scene. People are talking about the election in shops and win or lose you get the firm impression the Lib Dems are doing well, borne out by the betting which still has them coming in well. However anything can happen, bad weather on polling day, a Labour win tomorrow to stiffen their vote, a Conservative hard campaign in the last week, many factors at play.
Equally, another CBI-type speech from you-know-who.....
This fits in with my pretty close observations of the scene. People are talking about the election in shops and win or lose you get the firm impression the Lib Dems are doing well, borne out by the betting which still has them coming in well. However anything can happen, bad weather on polling day, a Labour win tomorrow to stiffen their vote, a Conservative hard campaign in the last week, many factors at play.
The media seem to be in full lock everyone down mood today and apart from undermining thousands of small businesses at their busiest time of the year they will only be content when everyone is kept at home
Then when they succeed they will be asking why is the economy tanking and it is time to get things back to normal
Went to see my GP this morning because of headaches. Getting an "emergency" CT scan some time before Christmas and advised to go private for my respiratory issues because nothing is going to happen soon. Told by the GP that the waiting time for gynaecology (not for me, of course) is now 2 years. He sees no prospects of anything improving in the foreseeable.
My GP is an excellent chap and expressed frustration at how many times he is now recommending private health care. He said he is a strong believer in the NHS but the long term underfunding (in his view) has simply meant it cannot cope with something like Covid and the reductions in capacity that the safeguards bring about.
Pretty sobering way to start the day.
'Underfunding' is the suggestion about NHS, as here, and more or less everything else the tax payer pays for.
But curiously we are at a moment of record highs in: tax levels, tax take, tax proportions of GDP, public spending, borrowing and debt.
Every issue, taken one at a time, required increased tax and spend - try listening for a few days to Today on R4 and count up the times it is the answer.
So something is missing in this discussion. And it feels insufficiently wide in its scope. It isn't possible or practicable that more tax take/borrowing is the universal panacea.
I also think that there are 2 tiers of the NHS as well. Front line crisis services generally run flat out with phenomenal efforts by those involved. But there are also large sections where productivity seems astonishingly low and where money seeps away. Poor management allows this to be tolerated for far too long. We simply cannot afford this anymore.
Surge capacity for emergencies comes from depleting capacity for routine elective work. So the radiologists doing Thoracic CTPA scans are not doing head scans etc.
The problem is more to do with physical resources than funding though. We cannot catch up on outpatients without more clinic space, nor staff maternity units without trained midwives, nor run extra operating lists without theatre staff.
But sorting that takes years, and planning. Promising an extra X billion in spending is instant gratification for the politicians.
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Except given the coronaphiliacs' penchant for making things up, what the virologist really said probably bears no relation to that.
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Presenters response was to comment that it showed how misguided many callers were.
The Groupthink is strong that "something must be done, this is something, so this must be done".
To even suggest that death is a part of the circle of life and not to be prevented at all costs is now viewed as a monstrous suggestion by some people.
You don't think a thousand extra deaths a week, many of them avoidable, is enough?
I don't think its too many.
Most deaths are either the unvaccinated who can own their own choices, or people who are very vulnerable and could die from the common cold or flu or anything else.
NPIs made sense pre-PIs, not anymore. If a thousand 'extra' deaths is the 'new normal' then that's the new normal and that's what we have to live with, though I'm sceptical that excess deaths actually are a thousand a week.
You seemed concerned about people drowning in the channel in far smaller numbers.
They're healthy young people dying a horrible and preventable death and there's a simple solution to stop it happening that doesn't restrict the rights of anyone living here.
Yes, set up asylum/Visa application centres in France. Then transport the winners here.
Email just arrived from Lib Dem HQ. Nice festive title: "It's beginning to feel a lot like Chesham"
Hubris. I wonder whether the new Conservative MP will be wishing his opponents a Merry Nemesis and a Happy New Year.
The rest of the email wasn't hubris, just classic Lib Dem campaigning. Essentially:
- It's excitingly close - The Tories are in trouble and people are saying nice things to us on the doorstep - However, it won't be easy and we need to you to pour into the constituency to help close the gap
Went to see my GP this morning because of headaches. Getting an "emergency" CT scan some time before Christmas and advised to go private for my respiratory issues because nothing is going to happen soon. Told by the GP that the waiting time for gynaecology (not for me, of course) is now 2 years. He sees no prospects of anything improving in the foreseeable.
My GP is an excellent chap and expressed frustration at how many times he is now recommending private health care. He said he is a strong believer in the NHS but the long term underfunding (in his view) has simply meant it cannot cope with something like Covid and the reductions in capacity that the safeguards bring about.
Pretty sobering way to start the day.
NHS, of course, is devolved to the Scottish Govt in your part of the world. Perhaps if they spent less on ramping up salaries, providing "free" baby-boxes, free bikes, free tuition fees, and various other perks for the middle-classes, there'd be a bit more for front-line health provision.
But, as we know, Nicola is politically bullet-proof, and nothing much will change however bad services get.
Rant over!
Her Teflon shielding is starting to wear a little thin. Interesting article in the Courier today be Jim Spence: "Is independence a busted flush?" The response to their virtual conference has been pretty negative well beyond the usual suspects (like me). Subscription only unfortunately.
Spence is of the Albanian persuasion isn’t he? I suspect he would prefer Indy to be a busted flush rather than the woke hell of cops dancing at Pride and non binary pronouns that inhabits his fevered imaginings.
I don't mind the zero covid crew. They have their own, internally logical, world view which prioritises stamping down on the spread of the disease at the expense of most other things. It is based on at least a version / interpretation of science and the facts. I don't agree with them but they are an important part of the conversation.
Likewise the libertarians / anti-maskers on the backbenches. They have their own internally logical world view which prioritises individual liberty and resisting the long arm of the state at the expense of controlling the spread of the virus. I don't agree with them either and think they're indulging somewhat in histrionics, but we need that voice in there too.
This is how government and public opinion gets the ability to triangulate and bring the public with it. What is more objectionable, and needs to be countered wherever it arises, is basic misinformation and pseudo-science. That includes anti-vax conspiracy theories but also the idea that the government has a cunning plan to lock us all down forever, or that this is some kind of eugenics experiment by the Tories, as well as a lot of the nonsense and moral panic around things like people gathering outdoors, or fist and elbow pumps (over a year since it became evident this thing mainly spreads in the air not from fomites)
I agree in principle, but the problem you have here is that both the 'zero covid ' and 'libertarian' visions have become deeply politicised and thrive on easy answers and misinformation; in their most extreme forms they are not that different to the mad conspiracy theories that circulate amongst parts of the population.
There may be some similarities in thinking now between libertarians and conspiracy Covid denialists but that doesn't mean they're the same thing at all.
I have argued here with people spreading conspiracies, claiming Ivermictin (sp?) works, that Covid isn't real etc . . . these people are crazy.
The libertarian thinking is in my humble opinion to recognise that Covid is real, not deny that, but to say that doesn't justify having restrictions. I fully accept and do not deny that may mean more people may die that would have without Covid, that is simply reality and it is something we can live with.
The denialists and the libertarians both want no restrictions, but for very different reasons.
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Presenters response was to comment that it showed how misguided many callers were.
The Groupthink is strong that "something must be done, this is something, so this must be done".
To even suggest that death is a part of the circle of life and not to be prevented at all costs is now viewed as a monstrous suggestion by some people.
You don't think a thousand extra deaths a week, many of them avoidable, is enough?
I don't think its too many.
Most deaths are either the unvaccinated who can own their own choices, or people who are very vulnerable and could die from the common cold or flu or anything else.
NPIs made sense pre-PIs, not anymore. If a thousand 'extra' deaths is the 'new normal' then that's the new normal and that's what we have to live with, though I'm sceptical that excess deaths actually are a thousand a week.
You seemed concerned about people drowning in the channel in far smaller numbers.
They're healthy young people dying a horrible and preventable death and there's a simple solution to stop it happening that doesn't restrict the rights of anyone living here.
So you're a "zero crossings" believer then? Well, good luck with that.
I think crossings should be made safely and legally via humane routes, via proper planes or boats and not dinghies.
If anyone who crosses in a dinghy is instantly deported to a third party nation like Rwanda then the dinghies would stop overnight.
We should then offer MORE asylum to more people, but via proper and safe routes not via people smugglers.
It's touching when your naivety is so openly on display. You can't completely stop people entering the country illegally, even with the policy you describe. Oh you might be able to reduce it at a certain cost, but dinghies and stowaways and overstaying visas and even people walking across the Irish border will still happen. And sometimes people will die in the attempt. You can't legislate it away, you can't public awareness it away. Zero illegal immigration is a myth.
People don't drown in the sea if they overstay visas, people don't die walking across the border, people don't die if they've got here on a plane. I don't care about any of that, I'm OK with that.
I don't care if we don't have zero illegal immigration. People smugglers on a deadly crossing is a different matter.
It'll still happen though. People get through barbed wire, cross raging torrents, choose longer routes etc to avoid being caught. The error you're making is that you think the consequences of being caught will deter everyone. It's the same "hang 'em high" error that headchoppers and thief danglers make. They think perpetrators focus on the outcome if they're apprehended. But we know that very often people don't think they will get caught at all. That's why people slow down for speed cameras and then speed up when they think they're clear.
People will still board dinghies elsewhere no matter how diligently you patrol Dover or how assiduously you punish them when they're caught. And perhaps a higher percentage of them will drown trying from Cherbourg than Calais, who knows?
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Presenters response was to comment that it showed how misguided many callers were.
The Groupthink is strong that "something must be done, this is something, so this must be done".
To even suggest that death is a part of the circle of life and not to be prevented at all costs is now viewed as a monstrous suggestion by some people.
You don't think a thousand extra deaths a week, many of them avoidable, is enough?
I don't think its too many.
Most deaths are either the unvaccinated who can own their own choices, or people who are very vulnerable and could die from the common cold or flu or anything else.
NPIs made sense pre-PIs, not anymore. If a thousand 'extra' deaths is the 'new normal' then that's the new normal and that's what we have to live with, though I'm sceptical that excess deaths actually are a thousand a week.
You seemed concerned about people drowning in the channel in far smaller numbers.
They're healthy young people dying a horrible and preventable death and there's a simple solution to stop it happening that doesn't restrict the rights of anyone living here.
Yes, set up asylum/Visa application centres in France. Then transport the winners here.
Immigrants will be socially accepted through this route because they've queued properly
It was interesting reading Sean McGlynn's account of the Albigensian Crusade (Kill Them All!). Seems to have actually been a period when heavy cavalry was the dominant force, something the French rather liked (Contamine certainly thought that was generally the case which does slightly overlook the longbow).
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Presenters response was to comment that it showed how misguided many callers were.
The Groupthink is strong that "something must be done, this is something, so this must be done".
To even suggest that death is a part of the circle of life and not to be prevented at all costs is now viewed as a monstrous suggestion by some people.
You don't think a thousand extra deaths a week, many of them avoidable, is enough?
I don't think its too many.
Most deaths are either the unvaccinated who can own their own choices, or people who are very vulnerable and could die from the common cold or flu or anything else.
NPIs made sense pre-PIs, not anymore. If a thousand 'extra' deaths is the 'new normal' then that's the new normal and that's what we have to live with, though I'm sceptical that excess deaths actually are a thousand a week.
You seemed concerned about people drowning in the channel in far smaller numbers.
They're healthy young people dying a horrible and preventable death and there's a simple solution to stop it happening that doesn't restrict the rights of anyone living here.
Yes, set up asylum/Visa application centres in France. Then transport the winners here.
So long as everyone who makes the journey without being transported from France is instantly deported back to France (and told they'll never be accepted now), then yes that works. The dinghies would stop overnight if that happens.
But there's no need for it to be in France. The processing centres should be closer to the frontline than France, which is exactly what David Cameron said about six years ago and nothing has changed since.
I don't mind the zero covid crew. They have their own, internally logical, world view which prioritises stamping down on the spread of the disease at the expense of most other things. It is based on at least a version / interpretation of science and the facts. I don't agree with them but they are an important part of the conversation.
Likewise the libertarians / anti-maskers on the backbenches. They have their own internally logical world view which prioritises individual liberty and resisting the long arm of the state at the expense of controlling the spread of the virus. I don't agree with them either and think they're indulging somewhat in histrionics, but we need that voice in there too.
This is how government and public opinion gets the ability to triangulate and bring the public with it. What is more objectionable, and needs to be countered wherever it arises, is basic misinformation and pseudo-science. That includes anti-vax conspiracy theories but also the idea that the government has a cunning plan to lock us all down forever, or that this is some kind of eugenics experiment by the Tories, as well as a lot of the nonsense and moral panic around things like people gathering outdoors, or fist and elbow pumps (over a year since it became evident this thing mainly spreads in the air not from fomites)
I agree in principle, but the problem you have here is that both the 'zero covid ' and 'libertarian' visions have become deeply politicised and thrive on easy answers and misinformation; in their most extreme forms they are not that different to the mad conspiracy theories that circulate amongst parts of the population.
There may be some similarities in thinking now between libertarians and conspiracy Covid denialists but that doesn't mean they're the same thing at all.
I have argued here with people spreading conspiracies, claiming Ivermictin (sp?) works, that Covid isn't real etc . . . these people are crazy.
The libertarian thinking is in my humble opinion to recognise that Covid is real, not deny that, but to say that doesn't justify having restrictions. I fully accept and do not deny that may mean more people may die that would have without Covid, that is simply reality and it is something we can live with.
The denialists and the libertarians both want no restrictions, but for very different reasons.
....we can live with dying?....
shome mishtake shurely.
No mistake. We all live with death. Death is a part of life.
Since the pandemic began excess deaths represent a meagre 0.2% of the population, almost all of that was pre-vaccinations. Two years of disruption is not a price worth paying for 0.2% of people.
Post-vaccinations its simply not worth putting life on hold any longer. The NHS should abolish all distancing etc, restore its capacity, and get on with life.
If the NHS is under pressure its because its restricted its capacity. We should stop trying to stop the spread of the virus and let nature take its course, relying on vaccines to prevent the worst of it.
There does seem to be a burgeoning crisis in the NHS which is a direct function of its internal distancing measures (I hadn't even realised it was still subject to such measures, but have recently read a number of articles outlining this). As you imply, if covid distancing measures are preventing people from getting cancer treatments, CT scans, x-rays and the like that seems to me to a be a stupid trade-off that we shouldn't be making. I would be interested in the views of @Foxy on this, and any other front-line medics on the site.
In my department it isn't social distancing measures that are slowing things down, it is staff shortages. People have left, retired, long term sick, reduced hours etc, while trainees are over a year behind and not yet ready to be released onto the Great British Public.
How about unleashing the trainees onto the voluntarily unvaxxed?
House prices have risen to almost 15% above levels seen in March 2020 when the coronavirus pandemic first struck the UK, Nationwide said.
The continuing rising prices appear to be in part down to a reduction in the supply of houses available to buyers. The October property market was the quietest for almost a decade, according to data from HM Revenue and Customs, as house sales were 28% lower in October than a year earlier after a record surge in activity earlier in 2021.
Just had a quick look on Right Move and there does seem to be very few properties on the market around where I live.
Email just arrived from Lib Dem HQ. Nice festive title: "It's beginning to feel a lot like Chesham"
Hubris. I wonder whether the new Conservative MP will be wishing his opponents a Merry Nemesis and a Happy New Year.
The rest of the email wasn't hubris, just classic Lib Dem campaigning. Essentially:
- It's excitingly close - The Tories are in trouble and people are saying nice things to us on the doorstep - However, it won't be easy and we need to you to pour into the constituency to help close the gap
Well, I hope it is close. I hope whatever the result it scares the shit out of the Conservative Party and leads to them behaving better than they have recently.
Jim Pickard @PickardJE · 1h the number of people wearing masks in shops and on public transport seems to be…about the same as last week
Anecdotally in Waitrose on Tuesday there were more wearing masks than last week, especially among the staff (the ones who weren't, never have through exemptions). Not 100% though. If the rumours of the slight increases in transmissability for omicron, and slight decline in effectiveness hold out to be right, and numbers don't increase rapidly, I think we may see an earlier release of the England only mask mandate.
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Presenters response was to comment that it showed how misguided many callers were.
The Groupthink is strong that "something must be done, this is something, so this must be done".
To even suggest that death is a part of the circle of life and not to be prevented at all costs is now viewed as a monstrous suggestion by some people.
You don't think a thousand extra deaths a week, many of them avoidable, is enough?
I don't think its too many.
Most deaths are either the unvaccinated who can own their own choices, or people who are very vulnerable and could die from the common cold or flu or anything else.
NPIs made sense pre-PIs, not anymore. If a thousand 'extra' deaths is the 'new normal' then that's the new normal and that's what we have to live with, though I'm sceptical that excess deaths actually are a thousand a week.
You seemed concerned about people drowning in the channel in far smaller numbers.
They're healthy young people dying a horrible and preventable death and there's a simple solution to stop it happening that doesn't restrict the rights of anyone living here.
Yes, set up asylum/Visa application centres in France. Then transport the winners here.
So long as everyone who makes the journey without being transported from France is instantly deported back to France (and told they'll never be accepted now), then yes that works. The dinghies would stop overnight if that happens.
But there's no need for it to be in France. The processing centres should be closer to the frontline than France, which is exactly what David Cameron said about six years ago and nothing has changed since.
The processing centre is either going to be in Calais or Kent. Take the Calais option combined with a crackdown & return to the processing centre
If the Lib Dems do win then in my view it shows that Boris has stopped being pull-factor for the Tories and instead is holding them back. If I were a Conservative MP I would be starting very much to think of how to replace Boris with someone more appealing.
Governments do not go one forever and the Tories will lose at some point. Personally I think that the next election after having been in power for ~14 years is one that would not be bad for the Tories to lose so long as they keep it close. There is no Corbyn as the alternative now.
Work Christmas do cancelled. The Robert Smithson Law in action.
What reason was given for the do being cancelled? This is absolute madness.
The “changed environment”. Basically a lot of people started cancelling so they decided to rearrange it for spring or summer.
At least in that case they have effectively ben forced into it by the reluctance of their guests.
My question is why are the guests cancelling? Nothing has materially changed since this time last week, when presumably they were happy to attend? Omicron poses an uncertain threat for the future but not an immediate threat, as far as I can see. Works parties will be done and dusted within a fortnight, So the Christmas thing is a charade. Presumably the rational concern is for what might happen later in the winter?
Work Christmas do cancelled. The Robert Smithson Law in action.
What reason was given for the do being cancelled? This is absolute madness.
The “changed environment”. Basically a lot of people started cancelling so they decided to rearrange it for spring or summer.
Thankfully after our voting button email earlier this week there was an overwhelming vote to keep the Christmas party, so it's still on. The only thing stopping it now will be further government restrictions, or a corporate edict from the centre to stop all Christmas dos.
We'd lose a pretty big deposit with the venue if we cancel without government rules changing, so that focuses the mind a bit.
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Presenters response was to comment that it showed how misguided many callers were.
The Groupthink is strong that "something must be done, this is something, so this must be done".
To even suggest that death is a part of the circle of life and not to be prevented at all costs is now viewed as a monstrous suggestion by some people.
You don't think a thousand extra deaths a week, many of them avoidable, is enough?
I don't think its too many.
Most deaths are either the unvaccinated who can own their own choices, or people who are very vulnerable and could die from the common cold or flu or anything else.
NPIs made sense pre-PIs, not anymore. If a thousand 'extra' deaths is the 'new normal' then that's the new normal and that's what we have to live with, though I'm sceptical that excess deaths actually are a thousand a week.
You seemed concerned about people drowning in the channel in far smaller numbers.
They're healthy young people dying a horrible and preventable death and there's a simple solution to stop it happening that doesn't restrict the rights of anyone living here.
So you're a "zero crossings" believer then? Well, good luck with that.
I think crossings should be made safely and legally via humane routes, via proper planes or boats and not dinghies.
If anyone who crosses in a dinghy is instantly deported to a third party nation like Rwanda then the dinghies would stop overnight.
We should then offer MORE asylum to more people, but via proper and safe routes not via people smugglers.
It's touching when your naivety is so openly on display. You can't completely stop people entering the country illegally, even with the policy you describe. Oh you might be able to reduce it at a certain cost, but dinghies and stowaways and overstaying visas and even people walking across the Irish border will still happen. And sometimes people will die in the attempt. You can't legislate it away, you can't public awareness it away. Zero illegal immigration is a myth.
People don't drown in the sea if they overstay visas, people don't die walking across the border, people don't die if they've got here on a plane. I don't care about any of that, I'm OK with that.
I don't care if we don't have zero illegal immigration. People smugglers on a deadly crossing is a different matter.
It'll still happen though. People get through barbed wire, cross raging torrents, choose longer routes etc to avoid being caught. The error you're making is that you think the consequences of being caught will deter everyone. It's the same "hang 'em high" error that headchoppers and thief danglers make. They think perpetrators focus on the outcome if they're apprehended. But we know that very often people don't think they will get caught at all. That's why people slow down for speed cameras and then speed up when they think they're clear.
People will still board dinghies elsewhere no matter how diligently you patrol Dover or how assiduously you punish them when they're caught. And perhaps a higher percentage of them will drown trying from Cherbourg than Calais, who knows?
Went to see my GP this morning because of headaches. Getting an "emergency" CT scan some time before Christmas and advised to go private for my respiratory issues because nothing is going to happen soon. Told by the GP that the waiting time for gynaecology (not for me, of course) is now 2 years. He sees no prospects of anything improving in the foreseeable.
My GP is an excellent chap and expressed frustration at how many times he is now recommending private health care. He said he is a strong believer in the NHS but the long term underfunding (in his view) has simply meant it cannot cope with something like Covid and the reductions in capacity that the safeguards bring about.
Pretty sobering way to start the day.
NHS, of course, is devolved to the Scottish Govt in your part of the world. Perhaps if they spent less on ramping up salaries, providing "free" baby-boxes, free bikes, free tuition fees, and various other perks for the middle-classes, there'd be a bit more for front-line health provision.
But, as we know, Nicola is politically bullet-proof, and nothing much will change however bad services get.
Rant over!
Her Teflon shielding is starting to wear a little thin. Interesting article in the Courier today be Jim Spence: "Is independence a busted flush?" The response to their virtual conference has been pretty negative well beyond the usual suspects (like me). Subscription only unfortunately.
Spence is of the Albanian persuasion isn’t he? I suspect he would prefer Indy to be a busted flush rather than the woke hell of cops dancing at Pride and non binary pronouns that inhabits his fevered imaginings.
This fits in with my pretty close observations of the scene. People are talking about the election in shops and win or lose you get the firm impression the Lib Dems are doing well, borne out by the betting which still has them coming in well. However anything can happen, bad weather on polling day, a Labour win tomorrow to stiffen their vote, a Conservative hard campaign in the last week, many factors at play.
The media seem to be in full lock everyone down mood today and apart from undermining thousands of small businesses at their busiest time of the year they will only be content when everyone is kept at home
Then when they succeed they will be asking why is the economy tanking and it is time to get things back to normal
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Presenters response was to comment that it showed how misguided many callers were.
The Groupthink is strong that "something must be done, this is something, so this must be done".
To even suggest that death is a part of the circle of life and not to be prevented at all costs is now viewed as a monstrous suggestion by some people.
You don't think a thousand extra deaths a week, many of them avoidable, is enough?
I don't think its too many.
Most deaths are either the unvaccinated who can own their own choices, or people who are very vulnerable and could die from the common cold or flu or anything else.
NPIs made sense pre-PIs, not anymore. If a thousand 'extra' deaths is the 'new normal' then that's the new normal and that's what we have to live with, though I'm sceptical that excess deaths actually are a thousand a week.
You seemed concerned about people drowning in the channel in far smaller numbers.
They're healthy young people dying a horrible and preventable death and there's a simple solution to stop it happening that doesn't restrict the rights of anyone living here.
Yes, set up asylum/Visa application centres in France. Then transport the winners here.
So long as everyone who makes the journey without being transported from France is instantly deported back to France (and told they'll never be accepted now), then yes that works. The dinghies would stop overnight if that happens.
But there's no need for it to be in France. The processing centres should be closer to the frontline than France, which is exactly what David Cameron said about six years ago and nothing has changed since.
The processing centre is either going to be in Calais or Kent. Take the Calais option combined with a crackdown & return to the processing centre
This fits in with my pretty close observations of the scene. People are talking about the election in shops and win or lose you get the firm impression the Lib Dems are doing well, borne out by the betting which still has them coming in well. However anything can happen, bad weather on polling day, a Labour win tomorrow to stiffen their vote, a Conservative hard campaign in the last week, many factors at play.
The media seem to be in full lock everyone down mood today and apart from undermining thousands of small businesses at their busiest time of the year they will only be content when everyone is kept at home
Then when they succeed they will be asking why is the economy tanking and it is time to get things back to normal
Jenny Harries' unguarded comments on Monday were absolutely stupid: she has probably cost the hospitality trade several millions of pounds, and possibly thousands of jobs, just by opening her mouth. Boris and Javid's attempts to roll it back will probably only have had a limited effect, judging by the anecdotal evidence.
Went to see my GP this morning because of headaches. Getting an "emergency" CT scan some time before Christmas and advised to go private for my respiratory issues because nothing is going to happen soon. Told by the GP that the waiting time for gynaecology (not for me, of course) is now 2 years. He sees no prospects of anything improving in the foreseeable.
My GP is an excellent chap and expressed frustration at how many times he is now recommending private health care. He said he is a strong believer in the NHS but the long term underfunding (in his view) has simply meant it cannot cope with something like Covid and the reductions in capacity that the safeguards bring about.
Pretty sobering way to start the day.
NHS, of course, is devolved to the Scottish Govt in your part of the world. Perhaps if they spent less on ramping up salaries, providing "free" baby-boxes, free bikes, free tuition fees, and various other perks for the middle-classes, there'd be a bit more for front-line health provision.
But, as we know, Nicola is politically bullet-proof, and nothing much will change however bad services get.
Rant over!
Her Teflon shielding is starting to wear a little thin. Interesting article in the Courier today be Jim Spence: "Is independence a busted flush?" The response to their virtual conference has been pretty negative well beyond the usual suspects (like me). Subscription only unfortunately.
Spence is of the Albanian persuasion isn’t he? I suspect he would prefer Indy to be a busted flush rather than the woke hell of cops dancing at Pride and non binary pronouns that inhabits his fevered imaginings.
Albanian?
= Alba
Oh, I thought that they were the ones who really wanted independence as opposed to those wanting to make a living campaigning about it.
Your insights into the motivations of indy supporters are of course renowned for their clear sighted objectivity.
Work Christmas do cancelled. The Robert Smithson Law in action.
What reason was given for the do being cancelled? This is absolute madness.
The “changed environment”. Basically a lot of people started cancelling so they decided to rearrange it for spring or summer.
Thankfully after our voting button email earlier this week there was an overwhelming vote to keep the Christmas party, so it's still on. The only thing stopping it now will be further government restrictions, or a corporate edict from the centre to stop all Christmas dos.
We'd lose a pretty big deposit with the venue if we cancel without government rules changing, so that focuses the mind a bit.
We never scheduled one in the first place, so haven't cancelled...
I shall miss boogying with the young receptionists in their glad rags.
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Presenters response was to comment that it showed how misguided many callers were.
The Groupthink is strong that "something must be done, this is something, so this must be done".
To even suggest that death is a part of the circle of life and not to be prevented at all costs is now viewed as a monstrous suggestion by some people.
You don't think a thousand extra deaths a week, many of them avoidable, is enough?
I don't think its too many.
Most deaths are either the unvaccinated who can own their own choices, or people who are very vulnerable and could die from the common cold or flu or anything else.
NPIs made sense pre-PIs, not anymore. If a thousand 'extra' deaths is the 'new normal' then that's the new normal and that's what we have to live with, though I'm sceptical that excess deaths actually are a thousand a week.
You seemed concerned about people drowning in the channel in far smaller numbers.
They're healthy young people dying a horrible and preventable death and there's a simple solution to stop it happening that doesn't restrict the rights of anyone living here.
Yes, set up asylum/Visa application centres in France. Then transport the winners here.
So long as everyone who makes the journey without being transported from France is instantly deported back to France (and told they'll never be accepted now), then yes that works. The dinghies would stop overnight if that happens.
But there's no need for it to be in France. The processing centres should be closer to the frontline than France, which is exactly what David Cameron said about six years ago and nothing has changed since.
Sadly we have no say about where these centres are outside the UK....
This fits in with my pretty close observations of the scene. People are talking about the election in shops and win or lose you get the firm impression the Lib Dems are doing well, borne out by the betting which still has them coming in well. However anything can happen, bad weather on polling day, a Labour win tomorrow to stiffen their vote, a Conservative hard campaign in the last week, many factors at play.
The media seem to be in full lock everyone down mood today and apart from undermining thousands of small businesses at their busiest time of the year they will only be content when everyone is kept at home
Then when they succeed they will be asking why is the economy tanking and it is time to get things back to normal
Jenny Harries' unguarded comments on Monday were absolutely stupid: she has probably cost the hospitality trade several millions of pounds, and possibly thousands of jobs, just by opening her mouth. Boris and Javid's attempts to roll it back will probably only have had a limited effect, judging by the anecdotal evidence.
I think that's overegging it.
I expect those who've been spooked would surely be those who were already guarded and easily spooked and so probably weren't going to be engaged much with hospitality anyway.
I expect those who were keen on hospitality would quite rightly be taking her comments with the pinch of salt they very much deserve.
I don't mind the zero covid crew. They have their own, internally logical, world view which prioritises stamping down on the spread of the disease at the expense of most other things. It is based on at least a version / interpretation of science and the facts. I don't agree with them but they are an important part of the conversation.
Likewise the libertarians / anti-maskers on the backbenches. They have their own internally logical world view which prioritises individual liberty and resisting the long arm of the state at the expense of controlling the spread of the virus. I don't agree with them either and think they're indulging somewhat in histrionics, but we need that voice in there too.
This is how government and public opinion gets the ability to triangulate and bring the public with it. What is more objectionable, and needs to be countered wherever it arises, is basic misinformation and pseudo-science. That includes anti-vax conspiracy theories but also the idea that the government has a cunning plan to lock us all down forever, or that this is some kind of eugenics experiment by the Tories, as well as a lot of the nonsense and moral panic around things like people gathering outdoors, or fist and elbow pumps (over a year since it became evident this thing mainly spreads in the air not from fomites)
I agree in principle, but the problem you have here is that both the 'zero covid ' and 'libertarian' visions have become deeply politicised and thrive on easy answers and misinformation; in their most extreme forms they are not that different to the mad conspiracy theories that circulate amongst parts of the population.
There may be some similarities in thinking now between libertarians and conspiracy Covid denialists but that doesn't mean they're the same thing at all.
I have argued here with people spreading conspiracies, claiming Ivermictin (sp?) works, that Covid isn't real etc . . . these people are crazy.
The libertarian thinking is in my humble opinion to recognise that Covid is real, not deny that, but to say that doesn't justify having restrictions. I fully accept and do not deny that may mean more people may die that would have without Covid, that is simply reality and it is something we can live with.
The denialists and the libertarians both want no restrictions, but for very different reasons.
....we can live with dying?....
shome mishtake shurely.
No mistake. We all live with death. Death is a part of life.
I don't mind the zero covid crew. They have their own, internally logical, world view which prioritises stamping down on the spread of the disease at the expense of most other things. It is based on at least a version / interpretation of science and the facts. I don't agree with them but they are an important part of the conversation.
Likewise the libertarians / anti-maskers on the backbenches. They have their own internally logical world view which prioritises individual liberty and resisting the long arm of the state at the expense of controlling the spread of the virus. I don't agree with them either and think they're indulging somewhat in histrionics, but we need that voice in there too.
This is how government and public opinion gets the ability to triangulate and bring the public with it. What is more objectionable, and needs to be countered wherever it arises, is basic misinformation and pseudo-science. That includes anti-vax conspiracy theories but also the idea that the government has a cunning plan to lock us all down forever, or that this is some kind of eugenics experiment by the Tories, as well as a lot of the nonsense and moral panic around things like people gathering outdoors, or fist and elbow pumps (over a year since it became evident this thing mainly spreads in the air not from fomites)
I agree in principle, but the problem you have here is that both the 'zero covid ' and 'libertarian' visions have become deeply politicised and thrive on easy answers and misinformation; in their most extreme forms they are not that different to the mad conspiracy theories that circulate amongst parts of the population.
There may be some similarities in thinking now between libertarians and conspiracy Covid denialists but that doesn't mean they're the same thing at all.
I have argued here with people spreading conspiracies, claiming Ivermictin (sp?) works, that Covid isn't real etc . . . these people are crazy.
The libertarian thinking is in my humble opinion to recognise that Covid is real, not deny that, but to say that doesn't justify having restrictions. I fully accept and do not deny that may mean more people may die that would have without Covid, that is simply reality and it is something we can live with.
The denialists and the libertarians both want no restrictions, but for very different reasons.
....we can live with dying?....
shome mishtake shurely.
No mistake. We all live with death. Death is a part of life.
You save those profound wee aphorisms from Christmas crackers I see.
I don't mind the zero covid crew. They have their own, internally logical, world view which prioritises stamping down on the spread of the disease at the expense of most other things. It is based on at least a version / interpretation of science and the facts. I don't agree with them but they are an important part of the conversation.
Likewise the libertarians / anti-maskers on the backbenches. They have their own internally logical world view which prioritises individual liberty and resisting the long arm of the state at the expense of controlling the spread of the virus. I don't agree with them either and think they're indulging somewhat in histrionics, but we need that voice in there too.
This is how government and public opinion gets the ability to triangulate and bring the public with it. What is more objectionable, and needs to be countered wherever it arises, is basic misinformation and pseudo-science. That includes anti-vax conspiracy theories but also the idea that the government has a cunning plan to lock us all down forever, or that this is some kind of eugenics experiment by the Tories, as well as a lot of the nonsense and moral panic around things like people gathering outdoors, or fist and elbow pumps (over a year since it became evident this thing mainly spreads in the air not from fomites)
I agree in principle, but the problem you have here is that both the 'zero covid ' and 'libertarian' visions have become deeply politicised and thrive on easy answers and misinformation; in their most extreme forms they are not that different to the mad conspiracy theories that circulate amongst parts of the population.
There may be some similarities in thinking now between libertarians and conspiracy Covid denialists but that doesn't mean they're the same thing at all.
I have argued here with people spreading conspiracies, claiming Ivermictin (sp?) works, that Covid isn't real etc . . . these people are crazy.
The libertarian thinking is in my humble opinion to recognise that Covid is real, not deny that, but to say that doesn't justify having restrictions. I fully accept and do not deny that may mean more people may die that would have without Covid, that is simply reality and it is something we can live with.
The denialists and the libertarians both want no restrictions, but for very different reasons.
....we can live with dying?....
shome mishtake shurely.
No mistake. We all live with death. Death is a part of life.
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Presenters response was to comment that it showed how misguided many callers were.
The Groupthink is strong that "something must be done, this is something, so this must be done".
To even suggest that death is a part of the circle of life and not to be prevented at all costs is now viewed as a monstrous suggestion by some people.
You don't think a thousand extra deaths a week, many of them avoidable, is enough?
I don't think its too many.
Most deaths are either the unvaccinated who can own their own choices, or people who are very vulnerable and could die from the common cold or flu or anything else.
NPIs made sense pre-PIs, not anymore. If a thousand 'extra' deaths is the 'new normal' then that's the new normal and that's what we have to live with, though I'm sceptical that excess deaths actually are a thousand a week.
You seemed concerned about people drowning in the channel in far smaller numbers.
They're healthy young people dying a horrible and preventable death and there's a simple solution to stop it happening that doesn't restrict the rights of anyone living here.
Yes, set up asylum/Visa application centres in France. Then transport the winners here.
So long as everyone who makes the journey without being transported from France is instantly deported back to France (and told they'll never be accepted now), then yes that works. The dinghies would stop overnight if that happens.
But there's no need for it to be in France. The processing centres should be closer to the frontline than France, which is exactly what David Cameron said about six years ago and nothing has changed since.
Sadly we have no say about where these centres are outside the UK....
We do if we negotiate them to be elsewhere.
Australia has centres in Nauru, the UN, Denmark and Israel etc have centres in Rwanda. The UK might be able to negotiate one in Calais.
These things are subject to negotiations, like almost anything in life.
I don't mind the zero covid crew. They have their own, internally logical, world view which prioritises stamping down on the spread of the disease at the expense of most other things. It is based on at least a version / interpretation of science and the facts. I don't agree with them but they are an important part of the conversation.
Likewise the libertarians / anti-maskers on the backbenches. They have their own internally logical world view which prioritises individual liberty and resisting the long arm of the state at the expense of controlling the spread of the virus. I don't agree with them either and think they're indulging somewhat in histrionics, but we need that voice in there too.
This is how government and public opinion gets the ability to triangulate and bring the public with it. What is more objectionable, and needs to be countered wherever it arises, is basic misinformation and pseudo-science. That includes anti-vax conspiracy theories but also the idea that the government has a cunning plan to lock us all down forever, or that this is some kind of eugenics experiment by the Tories, as well as a lot of the nonsense and moral panic around things like people gathering outdoors, or fist and elbow pumps (over a year since it became evident this thing mainly spreads in the air not from fomites)
I agree in principle, but the problem you have here is that both the 'zero covid ' and 'libertarian' visions have become deeply politicised and thrive on easy answers and misinformation; in their most extreme forms they are not that different to the mad conspiracy theories that circulate amongst parts of the population.
There may be some similarities in thinking now between libertarians and conspiracy Covid denialists but that doesn't mean they're the same thing at all.
I have argued here with people spreading conspiracies, claiming Ivermictin (sp?) works, that Covid isn't real etc . . . these people are crazy.
The libertarian thinking is in my humble opinion to recognise that Covid is real, not deny that, but to say that doesn't justify having restrictions. I fully accept and do not deny that may mean more people may die that would have without Covid, that is simply reality and it is something we can live with.
The denialists and the libertarians both want no restrictions, but for very different reasons.
....we can live with dying?....
shome mishtake shurely.
No mistake. We all live with death. Death is a part of life.
I don't mind the zero covid crew. They have their own, internally logical, world view which prioritises stamping down on the spread of the disease at the expense of most other things. It is based on at least a version / interpretation of science and the facts. I don't agree with them but they are an important part of the conversation.
Likewise the libertarians / anti-maskers on the backbenches. They have their own internally logical world view which prioritises individual liberty and resisting the long arm of the state at the expense of controlling the spread of the virus. I don't agree with them either and think they're indulging somewhat in histrionics, but we need that voice in there too.
This is how government and public opinion gets the ability to triangulate and bring the public with it. What is more objectionable, and needs to be countered wherever it arises, is basic misinformation and pseudo-science. That includes anti-vax conspiracy theories but also the idea that the government has a cunning plan to lock us all down forever, or that this is some kind of eugenics experiment by the Tories, as well as a lot of the nonsense and moral panic around things like people gathering outdoors, or fist and elbow pumps (over a year since it became evident this thing mainly spreads in the air not from fomites)
I agree in principle, but the problem you have here is that both the 'zero covid ' and 'libertarian' visions have become deeply politicised and thrive on easy answers and misinformation; in their most extreme forms they are not that different to the mad conspiracy theories that circulate amongst parts of the population.
There may be some similarities in thinking now between libertarians and conspiracy Covid denialists but that doesn't mean they're the same thing at all.
I have argued here with people spreading conspiracies, claiming Ivermictin (sp?) works, that Covid isn't real etc . . . these people are crazy.
The libertarian thinking is in my humble opinion to recognise that Covid is real, not deny that, but to say that doesn't justify having restrictions. I fully accept and do not deny that may mean more people may die that would have without Covid, that is simply reality and it is something we can live with.
The denialists and the libertarians both want no restrictions, but for very different reasons.
....we can live with dying?....
shome mishtake shurely.
No mistake. We all live with death. Death is a part of life.
You save those profound wee aphorisms from Christmas crackers I see.
I don't mind the zero covid crew. They have their own, internally logical, world view which prioritises stamping down on the spread of the disease at the expense of most other things. It is based on at least a version / interpretation of science and the facts. I don't agree with them but they are an important part of the conversation.
Likewise the libertarians / anti-maskers on the backbenches. They have their own internally logical world view which prioritises individual liberty and resisting the long arm of the state at the expense of controlling the spread of the virus. I don't agree with them either and think they're indulging somewhat in histrionics, but we need that voice in there too.
This is how government and public opinion gets the ability to triangulate and bring the public with it. What is more objectionable, and needs to be countered wherever it arises, is basic misinformation and pseudo-science. That includes anti-vax conspiracy theories but also the idea that the government has a cunning plan to lock us all down forever, or that this is some kind of eugenics experiment by the Tories, as well as a lot of the nonsense and moral panic around things like people gathering outdoors, or fist and elbow pumps (over a year since it became evident this thing mainly spreads in the air not from fomites)
I agree in principle, but the problem you have here is that both the 'zero covid ' and 'libertarian' visions have become deeply politicised and thrive on easy answers and misinformation; in their most extreme forms they are not that different to the mad conspiracy theories that circulate amongst parts of the population.
There may be some similarities in thinking now between libertarians and conspiracy Covid denialists but that doesn't mean they're the same thing at all.
I have argued here with people spreading conspiracies, claiming Ivermictin (sp?) works, that Covid isn't real etc . . . these people are crazy.
The libertarian thinking is in my humble opinion to recognise that Covid is real, not deny that, but to say that doesn't justify having restrictions. I fully accept and do not deny that may mean more people may die that would have without Covid, that is simply reality and it is something we can live with.
The denialists and the libertarians both want no restrictions, but for very different reasons.
....we can live with dying?....
shome mishtake shurely.
No mistake. We all live with death. Death is a part of life.
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Presenters response was to comment that it showed how misguided many callers were.
The Groupthink is strong that "something must be done, this is something, so this must be done".
To even suggest that death is a part of the circle of life and not to be prevented at all costs is now viewed as a monstrous suggestion by some people.
You don't think a thousand extra deaths a week, many of them avoidable, is enough?
I don't think its too many.
Most deaths are either the unvaccinated who can own their own choices, or people who are very vulnerable and could die from the common cold or flu or anything else.
NPIs made sense pre-PIs, not anymore. If a thousand 'extra' deaths is the 'new normal' then that's the new normal and that's what we have to live with, though I'm sceptical that excess deaths actually are a thousand a week.
You seemed concerned about people drowning in the channel in far smaller numbers.
They're healthy young people dying a horrible and preventable death and there's a simple solution to stop it happening that doesn't restrict the rights of anyone living here.
So you're a "zero crossings" believer then? Well, good luck with that.
I think crossings should be made safely and legally via humane routes, via proper planes or boats and not dinghies.
If anyone who crosses in a dinghy is instantly deported to a third party nation like Rwanda then the dinghies would stop overnight.
We should then offer MORE asylum to more people, but via proper and safe routes not via people smugglers.
It's touching when your naivety is so openly on display. You can't completely stop people entering the country illegally, even with the policy you describe. Oh you might be able to reduce it at a certain cost, but dinghies and stowaways and overstaying visas and even people walking across the Irish border will still happen. And sometimes people will die in the attempt. You can't legislate it away, you can't public awareness it away. Zero illegal immigration is a myth.
People don't drown in the sea if they overstay visas, people don't die walking across the border, people don't die if they've got here on a plane. I don't care about any of that, I'm OK with that.
I don't care if we don't have zero illegal immigration. People smugglers on a deadly crossing is a different matter.
It'll still happen though. People get through barbed wire, cross raging torrents, choose longer routes etc to avoid being caught. The error you're making is that you think the consequences of being caught will deter everyone. It's the same "hang 'em high" error that headchoppers and thief danglers make. They think perpetrators focus on the outcome if they're apprehended. But we know that very often people don't think they will get caught at all. That's why people slow down for speed cameras and then speed up when they think they're clear.
People will still board dinghies elsewhere no matter how diligently you patrol Dover or how assiduously you punish them when they're caught. And perhaps a higher percentage of them will drown trying from Cherbourg than Calais, who knows?
Except this has already worked in the real world.
"Worked" as in zero migrants? If you are talking about Australia then no, no it hasn't.
This fits in with my pretty close observations of the scene. People are talking about the election in shops and win or lose you get the firm impression the Lib Dems are doing well, borne out by the betting which still has them coming in well. However anything can happen, bad weather on polling day, a Labour win tomorrow to stiffen their vote, a Conservative hard campaign in the last week, many factors at play.
The media seem to be in full lock everyone down mood today and apart from undermining thousands of small businesses at their busiest time of the year they will only be content when everyone is kept at home
Then when they succeed they will be asking why is the economy tanking and it is time to get things back to normal
Jenny Harries' unguarded comments on Monday were absolutely stupid: she has probably cost the hospitality trade several millions of pounds, and possibly thousands of jobs, just by opening her mouth. Boris and Javid's attempts to roll it back will probably only have had a limited effect, judging by the anecdotal evidence.
I think that's overegging it.
I expect those who've been spooked would surely be those who were already guarded and easily spooked and so probably weren't going to be engaged much with hospitality anyway.
I expect those who were keen on hospitality would quite rightly be taking her comments with the pinch of salt they very much deserve.
Lots of unilateral cancellations going on though Philip, at least anecdotally. Organisers just cancelling parties for no numerical reason this week. Spooked. As you say.
Work Christmas do cancelled. The Robert Smithson Law in action.
What reason was given for the do being cancelled? This is absolute madness.
Omnicron?
There are 13 (thirteen, one-three) confirmed omicron cases in England. Meantime, overall cases, hospitalisations and deaths are falling.
That is true, ...at the moment...
Most works' Christmas parties will be done and dusted within a fortnight. Do you want to hazard a guess at what the level of confirmed omicron cases will be by the end of the works' party season on 17 Dec?
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Presenters response was to comment that it showed how misguided many callers were.
The Groupthink is strong that "something must be done, this is something, so this must be done".
To even suggest that death is a part of the circle of life and not to be prevented at all costs is now viewed as a monstrous suggestion by some people.
You don't think a thousand extra deaths a week, many of them avoidable, is enough?
I don't think its too many.
Most deaths are either the unvaccinated who can own their own choices, or people who are very vulnerable and could die from the common cold or flu or anything else.
NPIs made sense pre-PIs, not anymore. If a thousand 'extra' deaths is the 'new normal' then that's the new normal and that's what we have to live with, though I'm sceptical that excess deaths actually are a thousand a week.
You seemed concerned about people drowning in the channel in far smaller numbers.
They're healthy young people dying a horrible and preventable death and there's a simple solution to stop it happening that doesn't restrict the rights of anyone living here.
So you're a "zero crossings" believer then? Well, good luck with that.
I think crossings should be made safely and legally via humane routes, via proper planes or boats and not dinghies.
If anyone who crosses in a dinghy is instantly deported to a third party nation like Rwanda then the dinghies would stop overnight.
We should then offer MORE asylum to more people, but via proper and safe routes not via people smugglers.
It's touching when your naivety is so openly on display. You can't completely stop people entering the country illegally, even with the policy you describe. Oh you might be able to reduce it at a certain cost, but dinghies and stowaways and overstaying visas and even people walking across the Irish border will still happen. And sometimes people will die in the attempt. You can't legislate it away, you can't public awareness it away. Zero illegal immigration is a myth.
People don't drown in the sea if they overstay visas, people don't die walking across the border, people don't die if they've got here on a plane. I don't care about any of that, I'm OK with that.
I don't care if we don't have zero illegal immigration. People smugglers on a deadly crossing is a different matter.
It'll still happen though. People get through barbed wire, cross raging torrents, choose longer routes etc to avoid being caught. The error you're making is that you think the consequences of being caught will deter everyone. It's the same "hang 'em high" error that headchoppers and thief danglers make. They think perpetrators focus on the outcome if they're apprehended. But we know that very often people don't think they will get caught at all. That's why people slow down for speed cameras and then speed up when they think they're clear.
People will still board dinghies elsewhere no matter how diligently you patrol Dover or how assiduously you punish them when they're caught. And perhaps a higher percentage of them will drown trying from Cherbourg than Calais, who knows?
Except this has already worked in the real world.
"Worked" as in zero migrants? If you are talking about Australia then no, no it hasn't.
Who said anything about zero migrants?
It worked as in dealing with the boats. If people come via safe means then I welcome that!
If the Lib Dems do win then in my view it shows that Boris has stopped being pull-factor for the Tories and instead is holding them back. If I were a Conservative MP I would be starting very much to think of how to replace Boris with someone more appealing.
Governments do not go one forever and the Tories will lose at some point. Personally I think that the next election after having been in power for ~14 years is one that would not be bad for the Tories to lose so long as they keep it close. There is no Corbyn as the alternative now.
Johnson was pretty brutal two years ago with those who didn't see things his way. Would he take the view with someone who put their head above the parapet "If you don't like my leadership, find another party!" Could be a concern, especially for the first one or two. Sir Anthony Meyer was chucked out, IIRC, for being the stalking horse against Thatcher.
Work Christmas do cancelled. The Robert Smithson Law in action.
What reason was given for the do being cancelled? This is absolute madness.
The “changed environment”. Basically a lot of people started cancelling so they decided to rearrange it for spring or summer.
At least in that case they have effectively ben forced into it by the reluctance of their guests.
My question is why are the guests cancelling? Nothing has materially changed since this time last week, when presumably they were happy to attend? Omicron poses an uncertain threat for the future but not an immediate threat, as far as I can see. Works parties will be done and dusted within a fortnight, So the Christmas thing is a charade. Presumably the rational concern is for what might happen later in the winter?
For nearly two years the government has deliberately deployed psychological manipulation against the population to try and keep average daily contacts down. Ring a bell and the doggy sits. Blow a whistle and the doggy rolls over. It should not be a surprise that it will prove very hard to undo this in a lot of people.
I don't mind the zero covid crew. They have their own, internally logical, world view which prioritises stamping down on the spread of the disease at the expense of most other things. It is based on at least a version / interpretation of science and the facts. I don't agree with them but they are an important part of the conversation.
Likewise the libertarians / anti-maskers on the backbenches. They have their own internally logical world view which prioritises individual liberty and resisting the long arm of the state at the expense of controlling the spread of the virus. I don't agree with them either and think they're indulging somewhat in histrionics, but we need that voice in there too.
This is how government and public opinion gets the ability to triangulate and bring the public with it. What is more objectionable, and needs to be countered wherever it arises, is basic misinformation and pseudo-science. That includes anti-vax conspiracy theories but also the idea that the government has a cunning plan to lock us all down forever, or that this is some kind of eugenics experiment by the Tories, as well as a lot of the nonsense and moral panic around things like people gathering outdoors, or fist and elbow pumps (over a year since it became evident this thing mainly spreads in the air not from fomites)
I agree in principle, but the problem you have here is that both the 'zero covid ' and 'libertarian' visions have become deeply politicised and thrive on easy answers and misinformation; in their most extreme forms they are not that different to the mad conspiracy theories that circulate amongst parts of the population.
There may be some similarities in thinking now between libertarians and conspiracy Covid denialists but that doesn't mean they're the same thing at all.
I have argued here with people spreading conspiracies, claiming Ivermictin (sp?) works, that Covid isn't real etc . . . these people are crazy.
The libertarian thinking is in my humble opinion to recognise that Covid is real, not deny that, but to say that doesn't justify having restrictions. I fully accept and do not deny that may mean more people may die that would have without Covid, that is simply reality and it is something we can live with.
The denialists and the libertarians both want no restrictions, but for very different reasons.
....we can live with dying?....
shome mishtake shurely.
No mistake. We all live with death. Death is a part of life.
I don't mind the zero covid crew. They have their own, internally logical, world view which prioritises stamping down on the spread of the disease at the expense of most other things. It is based on at least a version / interpretation of science and the facts. I don't agree with them but they are an important part of the conversation.
Likewise the libertarians / anti-maskers on the backbenches. They have their own internally logical world view which prioritises individual liberty and resisting the long arm of the state at the expense of controlling the spread of the virus. I don't agree with them either and think they're indulging somewhat in histrionics, but we need that voice in there too.
This is how government and public opinion gets the ability to triangulate and bring the public with it. What is more objectionable, and needs to be countered wherever it arises, is basic misinformation and pseudo-science. That includes anti-vax conspiracy theories but also the idea that the government has a cunning plan to lock us all down forever, or that this is some kind of eugenics experiment by the Tories, as well as a lot of the nonsense and moral panic around things like people gathering outdoors, or fist and elbow pumps (over a year since it became evident this thing mainly spreads in the air not from fomites)
I agree in principle, but the problem you have here is that both the 'zero covid ' and 'libertarian' visions have become deeply politicised and thrive on easy answers and misinformation; in their most extreme forms they are not that different to the mad conspiracy theories that circulate amongst parts of the population.
There may be some similarities in thinking now between libertarians and conspiracy Covid denialists but that doesn't mean they're the same thing at all.
I have argued here with people spreading conspiracies, claiming Ivermictin (sp?) works, that Covid isn't real etc . . . these people are crazy.
The libertarian thinking is in my humble opinion to recognise that Covid is real, not deny that, but to say that doesn't justify having restrictions. I fully accept and do not deny that may mean more people may die that would have without Covid, that is simply reality and it is something we can live with.
The denialists and the libertarians both want no restrictions, but for very different reasons.
....we can live with dying?....
shome mishtake shurely.
No mistake. We all live with death. Death is a part of life.
You save those profound wee aphorisms from Christmas crackers I see.
As I recall it, life is a sexually transmitted, terminal condition.
Work Christmas do cancelled. The Robert Smithson Law in action.
What reason was given for the do being cancelled? This is absolute madness.
The “changed environment”. Basically a lot of people started cancelling so they decided to rearrange it for spring or summer.
Thankfully after our voting button email earlier this week there was an overwhelming vote to keep the Christmas party, so it's still on. The only thing stopping it now will be further government restrictions, or a corporate edict from the centre to stop all Christmas dos.
We'd lose a pretty big deposit with the venue if we cancel without government rules changing, so that focuses the mind a bit.
Good to hear. Maybe the death of rationality has been greatly exaggerated, after all.
I don't mind the zero covid crew. They have their own, internally logical, world view which prioritises stamping down on the spread of the disease at the expense of most other things. It is based on at least a version / interpretation of science and the facts. I don't agree with them but they are an important part of the conversation.
Likewise the libertarians / anti-maskers on the backbenches. They have their own internally logical world view which prioritises individual liberty and resisting the long arm of the state at the expense of controlling the spread of the virus. I don't agree with them either and think they're indulging somewhat in histrionics, but we need that voice in there too.
This is how government and public opinion gets the ability to triangulate and bring the public with it. What is more objectionable, and needs to be countered wherever it arises, is basic misinformation and pseudo-science. That includes anti-vax conspiracy theories but also the idea that the government has a cunning plan to lock us all down forever, or that this is some kind of eugenics experiment by the Tories, as well as a lot of the nonsense and moral panic around things like people gathering outdoors, or fist and elbow pumps (over a year since it became evident this thing mainly spreads in the air not from fomites)
I agree in principle, but the problem you have here is that both the 'zero covid ' and 'libertarian' visions have become deeply politicised and thrive on easy answers and misinformation; in their most extreme forms they are not that different to the mad conspiracy theories that circulate amongst parts of the population.
Edit - this is a good twitter account of a zero covid fundamentalist (probably a parody, but who knows)
This fits in with my pretty close observations of the scene. People are talking about the election in shops and win or lose you get the firm impression the Lib Dems are doing well, borne out by the betting which still has them coming in well. However anything can happen, bad weather on polling day, a Labour win tomorrow to stiffen their vote, a Conservative hard campaign in the last week, many factors at play.
The media seem to be in full lock everyone down mood today and apart from undermining thousands of small businesses at their busiest time of the year they will only be content when everyone is kept at home
Then when they succeed they will be asking why is the economy tanking and it is time to get things back to normal
Jenny Harries' unguarded comments on Monday were absolutely stupid: she has probably cost the hospitality trade several millions of pounds, and possibly thousands of jobs, just by opening her mouth. Boris and Javid's attempts to roll it back will probably only have had a limited effect, judging by the anecdotal evidence.
I'd just like consistency. Either the government are Following the Science or they are making the decisions where the science is only one consideration. We've been told both depending on circumstances.
Work Christmas do cancelled. The Robert Smithson Law in action.
What reason was given for the do being cancelled? This is absolute madness.
The “changed environment”. Basically a lot of people started cancelling so they decided to rearrange it for spring or summer.
At least in that case they have effectively ben forced into it by the reluctance of their guests.
My question is why are the guests cancelling? Nothing has materially changed since this time last week, when presumably they were happy to attend? Omicron poses an uncertain threat for the future but not an immediate threat, as far as I can see. Works parties will be done and dusted within a fortnight, So the Christmas thing is a charade. Presumably the rational concern is for what might happen later in the winter?
For nearly two years the government has deliberately deployed psychological manipulation against the population to try and keep average daily contacts down. Ring a bell and the doggy sits. Blow a whistle and the doggy rolls over. It should not be a surprise that it will prove very hard to undo this in a lot of people.
In this particular case, I think Harries just went rogue. I'm not at all certain that the government knew much about it until she piped up on Radio 4 and her comments went viral.
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Presenters response was to comment that it showed how misguided many callers were.
The Groupthink is strong that "something must be done, this is something, so this must be done".
To even suggest that death is a part of the circle of life and not to be prevented at all costs is now viewed as a monstrous suggestion by some people.
You don't think a thousand extra deaths a week, many of them avoidable, is enough?
I don't think its too many.
Most deaths are either the unvaccinated who can own their own choices, or people who are very vulnerable and could die from the common cold or flu or anything else.
NPIs made sense pre-PIs, not anymore. If a thousand 'extra' deaths is the 'new normal' then that's the new normal and that's what we have to live with, though I'm sceptical that excess deaths actually are a thousand a week.
You seemed concerned about people drowning in the channel in far smaller numbers.
They're healthy young people dying a horrible and preventable death and there's a simple solution to stop it happening that doesn't restrict the rights of anyone living here.
So you're a "zero crossings" believer then? Well, good luck with that.
I think crossings should be made safely and legally via humane routes, via proper planes or boats and not dinghies.
If anyone who crosses in a dinghy is instantly deported to a third party nation like Rwanda then the dinghies would stop overnight.
We should then offer MORE asylum to more people, but via proper and safe routes not via people smugglers.
It's touching when your naivety is so openly on display. You can't completely stop people entering the country illegally, even with the policy you describe. Oh you might be able to reduce it at a certain cost, but dinghies and stowaways and overstaying visas and even people walking across the Irish border will still happen. And sometimes people will die in the attempt. You can't legislate it away, you can't public awareness it away. Zero illegal immigration is a myth.
People don't drown in the sea if they overstay visas, people don't die walking across the border, people don't die if they've got here on a plane. I don't care about any of that, I'm OK with that.
I don't care if we don't have zero illegal immigration. People smugglers on a deadly crossing is a different matter.
It'll still happen though. People get through barbed wire, cross raging torrents, choose longer routes etc to avoid being caught. The error you're making is that you think the consequences of being caught will deter everyone. It's the same "hang 'em high" error that headchoppers and thief danglers make. They think perpetrators focus on the outcome if they're apprehended. But we know that very often people don't think they will get caught at all. That's why people slow down for speed cameras and then speed up when they think they're clear.
People will still board dinghies elsewhere no matter how diligently you patrol Dover or how assiduously you punish them when they're caught. And perhaps a higher percentage of them will drown trying from Cherbourg than Calais, who knows?
Except this has already worked in the real world.
"Worked" as in zero migrants? If you are talking about Australia then no, no it hasn't.
Who said anything about zero migrants?
It worked as in dealing with the boats. If people come via safe means then I welcome that!
Sorry, I meant zero illegal boat crossings attempted.
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Presenters response was to comment that it showed how misguided many callers were.
The Groupthink is strong that "something must be done, this is something, so this must be done".
To even suggest that death is a part of the circle of life and not to be prevented at all costs is now viewed as a monstrous suggestion by some people.
You don't think a thousand extra deaths a week, many of them avoidable, is enough?
I don't think its too many.
Most deaths are either the unvaccinated who can own their own choices, or people who are very vulnerable and could die from the common cold or flu or anything else.
NPIs made sense pre-PIs, not anymore. If a thousand 'extra' deaths is the 'new normal' then that's the new normal and that's what we have to live with, though I'm sceptical that excess deaths actually are a thousand a week.
You seemed concerned about people drowning in the channel in far smaller numbers.
They're healthy young people dying a horrible and preventable death and there's a simple solution to stop it happening that doesn't restrict the rights of anyone living here.
So you're a "zero crossings" believer then? Well, good luck with that.
I think crossings should be made safely and legally via humane routes, via proper planes or boats and not dinghies.
If anyone who crosses in a dinghy is instantly deported to a third party nation like Rwanda then the dinghies would stop overnight.
We should then offer MORE asylum to more people, but via proper and safe routes not via people smugglers.
It's touching when your naivety is so openly on display. You can't completely stop people entering the country illegally, even with the policy you describe. Oh you might be able to reduce it at a certain cost, but dinghies and stowaways and overstaying visas and even people walking across the Irish border will still happen. And sometimes people will die in the attempt. You can't legislate it away, you can't public awareness it away. Zero illegal immigration is a myth.
People don't drown in the sea if they overstay visas, people don't die walking across the border, people don't die if they've got here on a plane. I don't care about any of that, I'm OK with that.
I don't care if we don't have zero illegal immigration. People smugglers on a deadly crossing is a different matter.
It'll still happen though. People get through barbed wire, cross raging torrents, choose longer routes etc to avoid being caught. The error you're making is that you think the consequences of being caught will deter everyone. It's the same "hang 'em high" error that headchoppers and thief danglers make. They think perpetrators focus on the outcome if they're apprehended. But we know that very often people don't think they will get caught at all. That's why people slow down for speed cameras and then speed up when they think they're clear.
People will still board dinghies elsewhere no matter how diligently you patrol Dover or how assiduously you punish them when they're caught. And perhaps a higher percentage of them will drown trying from Cherbourg than Calais, who knows?
Except this has already worked in the real world.
"Worked" as in zero migrants? If you are talking about Australia then no, no it hasn't.
Who said anything about zero migrants?
It worked as in dealing with the boats. If people come via safe means then I welcome that!
The problem being that there is no legal or safe route for most of the boat people to get here. If there was they wouldn't be on a boat.
I don't mind the zero covid crew. They have their own, internally logical, world view which prioritises stamping down on the spread of the disease at the expense of most other things. It is based on at least a version / interpretation of science and the facts. I don't agree with them but they are an important part of the conversation.
Likewise the libertarians / anti-maskers on the backbenches. They have their own internally logical world view which prioritises individual liberty and resisting the long arm of the state at the expense of controlling the spread of the virus. I don't agree with them either and think they're indulging somewhat in histrionics, but we need that voice in there too.
This is how government and public opinion gets the ability to triangulate and bring the public with it. What is more objectionable, and needs to be countered wherever it arises, is basic misinformation and pseudo-science. That includes anti-vax conspiracy theories but also the idea that the government has a cunning plan to lock us all down forever, or that this is some kind of eugenics experiment by the Tories, as well as a lot of the nonsense and moral panic around things like people gathering outdoors, or fist and elbow pumps (over a year since it became evident this thing mainly spreads in the air not from fomites)
I agree in principle, but the problem you have here is that both the 'zero covid ' and 'libertarian' visions have become deeply politicised and thrive on easy answers and misinformation; in their most extreme forms they are not that different to the mad conspiracy theories that circulate amongst parts of the population.
Edit - this is a good twitter account of a zero covid fundamentalist (probably a parody, but who knows)
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Presenters response was to comment that it showed how misguided many callers were.
The Groupthink is strong that "something must be done, this is something, so this must be done".
To even suggest that death is a part of the circle of life and not to be prevented at all costs is now viewed as a monstrous suggestion by some people.
You don't think a thousand extra deaths a week, many of them avoidable, is enough?
I don't think its too many.
Most deaths are either the unvaccinated who can own their own choices, or people who are very vulnerable and could die from the common cold or flu or anything else.
NPIs made sense pre-PIs, not anymore. If a thousand 'extra' deaths is the 'new normal' then that's the new normal and that's what we have to live with, though I'm sceptical that excess deaths actually are a thousand a week.
You seemed concerned about people drowning in the channel in far smaller numbers.
They're healthy young people dying a horrible and preventable death and there's a simple solution to stop it happening that doesn't restrict the rights of anyone living here.
So you're a "zero crossings" believer then? Well, good luck with that.
I think crossings should be made safely and legally via humane routes, via proper planes or boats and not dinghies.
If anyone who crosses in a dinghy is instantly deported to a third party nation like Rwanda then the dinghies would stop overnight.
We should then offer MORE asylum to more people, but via proper and safe routes not via people smugglers.
It's touching when your naivety is so openly on display. You can't completely stop people entering the country illegally, even with the policy you describe. Oh you might be able to reduce it at a certain cost, but dinghies and stowaways and overstaying visas and even people walking across the Irish border will still happen. And sometimes people will die in the attempt. You can't legislate it away, you can't public awareness it away. Zero illegal immigration is a myth.
People don't drown in the sea if they overstay visas, people don't die walking across the border, people don't die if they've got here on a plane. I don't care about any of that, I'm OK with that.
I don't care if we don't have zero illegal immigration. People smugglers on a deadly crossing is a different matter.
It'll still happen though. People get through barbed wire, cross raging torrents, choose longer routes etc to avoid being caught. The error you're making is that you think the consequences of being caught will deter everyone. It's the same "hang 'em high" error that headchoppers and thief danglers make. They think perpetrators focus on the outcome if they're apprehended. But we know that very often people don't think they will get caught at all. That's why people slow down for speed cameras and then speed up when they think they're clear.
People will still board dinghies elsewhere no matter how diligently you patrol Dover or how assiduously you punish them when they're caught. And perhaps a higher percentage of them will drown trying from Cherbourg than Calais, who knows?
Except this has already worked in the real world.
"Worked" as in zero migrants? If you are talking about Australia then no, no it hasn't.
Indeed the rhetoric on this from Australia doesn't match reality.
Tens of thousands are on Bridging Visa E (which permits employment) in Australian communities, and only a few hundred on Nauru.
This fits in with my pretty close observations of the scene. People are talking about the election in shops and win or lose you get the firm impression the Lib Dems are doing well, borne out by the betting which still has them coming in well. However anything can happen, bad weather on polling day, a Labour win tomorrow to stiffen their vote, a Conservative hard campaign in the last week, many factors at play.
The media seem to be in full lock everyone down mood today and apart from undermining thousands of small businesses at their busiest time of the year they will only be content when everyone is kept at home
Then when they succeed they will be asking why is the economy tanking and it is time to get things back to normal
Jenny Harries' unguarded comments on Monday were absolutely stupid: she has probably cost the hospitality trade several millions of pounds, and possibly thousands of jobs, just by opening her mouth. Boris and Javid's attempts to roll it back will probably only have had a limited effect, judging by the anecdotal evidence.
I think that's overegging it.
I expect those who've been spooked would surely be those who were already guarded and easily spooked and so probably weren't going to be engaged much with hospitality anyway.
I expect those who were keen on hospitality would quite rightly be taking her comments with the pinch of salt they very much deserve.
For what it's worth: the curry house was empty last night when I went with a couple of mates.
Radio Scotland phone in has been fun this morning.
Callers flat out refusing to cancel any Christmas plans, asking how many more variants there will be and whether this will the case every Christmas for evermore.
Virologist comes on and responds with zero-covid strategy: "we must stop this variant in its tracks".
"We should not learn to live with it. We must eradicate it now"
To which the next question should be how do you do that? And drill the person down to he turns silent at which point the interviewer should say "so that would be impossible"...
Presenters response was to comment that it showed how misguided many callers were.
The Groupthink is strong that "something must be done, this is something, so this must be done".
To even suggest that death is a part of the circle of life and not to be prevented at all costs is now viewed as a monstrous suggestion by some people.
You don't think a thousand extra deaths a week, many of them avoidable, is enough?
I don't think its too many.
Most deaths are either the unvaccinated who can own their own choices, or people who are very vulnerable and could die from the common cold or flu or anything else.
NPIs made sense pre-PIs, not anymore. If a thousand 'extra' deaths is the 'new normal' then that's the new normal and that's what we have to live with, though I'm sceptical that excess deaths actually are a thousand a week.
You seemed concerned about people drowning in the channel in far smaller numbers.
They're healthy young people dying a horrible and preventable death and there's a simple solution to stop it happening that doesn't restrict the rights of anyone living here.
So you're a "zero crossings" believer then? Well, good luck with that.
I think crossings should be made safely and legally via humane routes, via proper planes or boats and not dinghies.
If anyone who crosses in a dinghy is instantly deported to a third party nation like Rwanda then the dinghies would stop overnight.
We should then offer MORE asylum to more people, but via proper and safe routes not via people smugglers.
It's touching when your naivety is so openly on display. You can't completely stop people entering the country illegally, even with the policy you describe. Oh you might be able to reduce it at a certain cost, but dinghies and stowaways and overstaying visas and even people walking across the Irish border will still happen. And sometimes people will die in the attempt. You can't legislate it away, you can't public awareness it away. Zero illegal immigration is a myth.
People don't drown in the sea if they overstay visas, people don't die walking across the border, people don't die if they've got here on a plane. I don't care about any of that, I'm OK with that.
I don't care if we don't have zero illegal immigration. People smugglers on a deadly crossing is a different matter.
It'll still happen though. People get through barbed wire, cross raging torrents, choose longer routes etc to avoid being caught. The error you're making is that you think the consequences of being caught will deter everyone. It's the same "hang 'em high" error that headchoppers and thief danglers make. They think perpetrators focus on the outcome if they're apprehended. But we know that very often people don't think they will get caught at all. That's why people slow down for speed cameras and then speed up when they think they're clear.
People will still board dinghies elsewhere no matter how diligently you patrol Dover or how assiduously you punish them when they're caught. And perhaps a higher percentage of them will drown trying from Cherbourg than Calais, who knows?
Except this has already worked in the real world.
"Worked" as in zero migrants? If you are talking about Australia then no, no it hasn't.
Who said anything about zero migrants?
It worked as in dealing with the boats. If people come via safe means then I welcome that!
The problem being that there is no legal or safe route for most of the boat people to get here. If there was they wouldn't be on a boat.
Didn't David Cameron take steps to have people able to claim asylum and be resettled from abroad?
No guarantees they'd get a place via that, but that's a different matter.
Or they can claim asylum in France or Germany or anywhere else they've safely reached.
Comments
Post-vaccinations its simply not worth putting life on hold any longer. The NHS should abolish all distancing etc, restore its capacity, and get on with life.
If the NHS is under pressure its because its restricted its capacity. We should stop trying to stop the spread of the virus and let nature take its course, relying on vaccines to prevent the worst of it.
If anyone who crosses in a dinghy is instantly deported to a third party nation like Rwanda then the dinghies would stop overnight.
We should then offer MORE asylum to more people, but via proper and safe routes not via people smugglers.
@PickardJE
·
1h
the number of people wearing masks in shops and on public transport seems to be…about the same as last week
The problem is more to do with physical resources than funding though. We cannot catch up on outpatients without more clinic space, nor staff maternity units without trained midwives, nor run extra operating lists without theatre staff.
Top among them are 'spend more money' without having to account for raising it, where it should stand among all the other priorities and why, or what to stop doing to find it
and
focussing on something called 'front line services' as if we can pay indefinite amounts to paramedics and nurses and doctors in A&E while allowing the roof to fall in, the ambulances to be unmaintained ,the electrics to catch fire and the payroll to be ignored.
Edit - this is a good twitter account of a zero covid fundamentalist (probably a parody, but who knows)
https://twitter.com/zerocovidzoe
Alternatively, they're hardly breaking 2% in the polls so just let them get on with it.
People are talking about the election in shops and win or lose you get the firm impression the Lib Dems are doing well, borne out by the betting which still has them coming in well.
However anything can happen, bad weather on polling day, a Labour win tomorrow to stiffen their vote, a Conservative hard campaign in the last week, many factors at play.
I have argued here with people spreading conspiracies, claiming Ivermictin (sp?) works, that Covid isn't real etc . . . these people are crazy.
The libertarian thinking is in my humble opinion to recognise that Covid is real, not deny that, but to say that doesn't justify having restrictions. I fully accept and do not deny that may mean more people may die that would have without Covid, that is simply reality and it is something we can live with.
The denialists and the libertarians both want no restrictions, but for very different reasons.
The tactic of putting a statement out that shows you behind but within catching distance is an old and effective trick.
It took us longer than it ought to realise that they are an extremely effective public health (rather than diagnostic) device, but we got there in the end:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/technologies-validation-group-using-tests-to-detect-covid-19
I don't care if we don't have zero illegal immigration. People smugglers on a deadly crossing is a different matter.
Then when they succeed they will be asking why is the economy tanking and it is time to get things back to normal
Promising an extra X billion in spending is instant gratification for the politicians.
- It's excitingly close
- The Tories are in trouble and people are saying nice things to us on the doorstep
- However, it won't be easy and we need to you to pour into the constituency to help close the gap
shome mishtake shurely.
People get through barbed wire, cross raging torrents, choose longer routes etc to avoid being caught.
The error you're making is that you think the consequences of being caught will deter everyone. It's the same "hang 'em high" error that headchoppers and thief danglers make. They think perpetrators focus on the outcome if they're apprehended. But we know that very often people don't think they will get caught at all. That's why people slow down for speed cameras and then speed up when they think they're clear.
People will still board dinghies elsewhere no matter how diligently you patrol Dover or how assiduously you punish them when they're caught. And perhaps a higher percentage of them will drown trying from Cherbourg than Calais, who knows?
But there's no need for it to be in France. The processing centres should be closer to the frontline than France, which is exactly what David Cameron said about six years ago and nothing has changed since.
House prices have risen to almost 15% above levels seen in March 2020 when the coronavirus pandemic first struck the UK, Nationwide said.
The continuing rising prices appear to be in part down to a reduction in the supply of houses available to buyers. The October property market was the quietest for almost a decade, according to data from HM Revenue and Customs, as house sales were 28% lower in October than a year earlier after a record surge in activity earlier in 2021.
Just had a quick look on Right Move and there does seem to be very few properties on the market around where I live.
If the rumours of the slight increases in transmissability for omicron, and slight decline in effectiveness hold out to be right, and numbers don't increase rapidly, I think we may see an earlier release of the England only mask mandate.
Governments do not go one forever and the Tories will lose at some point. Personally I think that the next election after having been in power for ~14 years is one that would not be bad for the Tories to lose so long as they keep it close. There is no Corbyn as the alternative now.
My question is why are the guests cancelling? Nothing has materially changed since this time last week, when presumably they were happy to attend? Omicron poses an uncertain threat for the future but not an immediate threat, as far as I can see. Works parties will be done and dusted within a fortnight, So the Christmas thing is a charade. Presumably the rational concern is for what might happen later in the winter?
We'd lose a pretty big deposit with the venue if we cancel without government rules changing, so that focuses the mind a bit.
I shall miss boogying with the young receptionists in their glad rags.
I expect those who've been spooked would surely be those who were already guarded and easily spooked and so probably weren't going to be engaged much with hospitality anyway.
I expect those who were keen on hospitality would quite rightly be taking her comments with the pinch of salt they very much deserve.
Australia has centres in Nauru, the UN, Denmark and Israel etc have centres in Rwanda. The UK might be able to negotiate one in Calais.
These things are subject to negotiations, like almost anything in life.
Most works' Christmas parties will be done and dusted within a fortnight. Do you want to hazard a guess at what the level of confirmed omicron cases will be by the end of the works' party season on 17 Dec?
It worked as in dealing with the boats. If people come via safe means then I welcome that!
Could be a concern, especially for the first one or two. Sir Anthony Meyer was chucked out, IIRC, for being the stalking horse against Thatcher.
Tens of thousands are on Bridging Visa E (which permits employment) in Australian communities, and only a few hundred on Nauru.
@AVMikhailova
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No guarantees they'd get a place via that, but that's a different matter.
Or they can claim asylum in France or Germany or anywhere else they've safely reached.