The "woke" might be the loudest but they are not the majority of the left by any way, just as the hang them all crowd on Twitter don't represent the right.
I continue to be of the view that most people sit in the centre, hence why Labour has now recovered
Let us never forget @CorrectHorseBattery that "The Woke" as an entity is entirely a self-serving invention of right-wingers, to give themselves something to rail against.
It’s not. Just look at the mess at the American School for example
I’m very happy with @Benpointer’s view. The more the left clings to the view is that wokeness is a made up concept, the more they will get hammered at the next elections both in the U.K. and US
When did I ever say 'wokeness' is a made up concept?
What has been invented by the Right is "The Woke" as some malevolent social engineering sect.
Just read the wiki entry, it is spot on about woke.
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
They voted for Boris to get Brexit done and to beat Corbyn. If Boris goes they will not vote for libertarian Remainer Truss, they will either vote Labour again or go ReformUK
Why did they vote for Boris?
Boris is upbeat and speaks the language of opportunity. He spoke about building up and levelling up communities and seeking opportunities post-Brexit.
Truss does the same thing. Thatcher and Cameron did the same thing.
Its what good leaders do and Truss has it.
Rubbish, they voted for Boris as he was a Leaver who they knew would get Brexit done.
Red Wallers also tend to be economically big state but socially conservative. hence Boris needed to promise big spending and an end to austerity to win them as well as to deliver Brexit. Remember most of them did not vote for Cameron or even Thatcher let alone May, Boris was the first Tory leader they ever voted for.
Red Wallers will not vote for an economically small state, socially liberal ex Remainer like Truss. They will either go back to Labour or vote ReformUK
Again you're talking total bollocks and don't understand a thing about the Red Wall. When was the last time you went canvassing in the Red Wall?
Actually over the past decade there's been a swing in these parts from Labour to Tory.
I have friends, colleagues and neighbours up here who've transitioned to voting Tory in the past decade but please lecture me some more about how those where I live are all wanting your style of Remain voting Southern Conservative politics.
The "woke" might be the loudest but they are not the majority of the left by any way, just as the hang them all crowd on Twitter don't represent the right.
I continue to be of the view that most people sit in the centre, hence why Labour has now recovered
Let us never forget @CorrectHorseBattery that "The Woke" as an entity is entirely a self-serving invention of right-wingers, to give themselves something to rail against.
It’s not. Just look at the mess at the American School for example
How does that prove the existence of The Woke as an entitity?
'Head teacher of exclusive private school implementing some crazy ideas and forced to resign' is hardly the end of civilisation as we know it.
All this reminds me of MultiCulturalism.
"That one wacky instance doesn't mean there is any such thing as MultiCultrailism in the real world"
and at the same time
"If you are against MultiCultuiralism, you are against multiple cultures in the same country. Therefore you are literally Hitler."
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
They voted for Boris to get Brexit done and to beat Corbyn. If Boris goes they will not vote for libertarian Remainer Truss, they will either vote Labour again or go ReformUK
Why did they vote for Boris?
Boris is upbeat and speaks the language of opportunity. He spoke about building up and levelling up communities and seeking opportunities post-Brexit.
Truss does the same thing. Thatcher and Cameron did the same thing.
Its what good leaders do and Truss has it.
Rubbish, they voted for Boris as he was a Leaver who they knew would get Brexit done.
Red Wallers also tend to be economically big state but socially conservative. hence Boris needed to promise big spending and an end to austerity to win them as well as to deliver Brexit. Remember most of them did not vote for Cameron or even Thatcher let alone May, Boris was the first Tory leader they ever voted for.
Red Wallers will not vote for an economically small state, socially liberal ex Remainer like Truss. They will either go back to Labour or vote ReformUK
Again you're talking total bollocks and don't understand a thing about the Red Wall. When was the last time you went canvassing in the Red Wall?
Actually over the past decade there's been a swing in these parts from Labour to Tory.
I have friends, colleagues and neighbours up here who've transitioned to voting Tory in the past decade but please lecture me some more about how those where I live are all wanting your style of Remain voting Southern Conservative politics.
Truss was a Remainer.
Most of these Red Wall seats voted for Kinnock, Brown and Ed Miliband and even Corbyn in 2017, they are traditional Labour seats not swing seats Blair or the LDs won which went Tory in 2010 and 2015.
To hold them the Tories would need a leader who is economically big state but was a Leaver like Boris, they are not going to vote for a leader who is economically small state but was a Remainer like Truss
The thing about the Israelis, highly technically advanced in medicine and computer science....I would put a lot more faith on them than the plonkers from Warwick University or Professor Pantsdown with their models using massively outdated ML.
The Israelis have consistently been amongst the best at testing, tracing, treating, vaccination and so on. That they have reacted the way they have suggests that they see a potential catastrophe, even if they are still as uncertain as the rest of the world.
I’d like to meet one of these legendary salt-of-the-earth red wall voters some day. They appear to have very well known and homogenous views on all current political issues, despite their varied ages, socio-economic levels and prior voting records.
If you are ever in the Nottingham area I will take you down my allotment where at least 5 of my close neighbours are former Labour voters - now they vote Ashfield Independents in the locals and Boris in the nationals - why? Brexit
How long do you think Brexit will continue to drive your fellow allotment holders' voting for?
As long as Boris is there - he can do no wrong
Thanks - you've ruined my evening.
But I do believe you've highlighted the way a sector of the country feels about Johnson. Sadly.
Woke has never really been the right thing to describe the underlying philosophy of the more nuttier examples. Intersectionality is actually the framework which is the root of this, and which the nuttier examples take way too far, that everybody and everything is some how rooted in oppression, discrimination and power dynamics. And then that everything is a hierarchy of who is more oppressed or discriminated than others.
Which then leads some to see absolutely everything through that lens and also how it is then ok to discriminate against one person who belongs to a particular group, because another is more oppressed or marginalized e.g. the academic at Sussex, its ok to hound a female lesbian academic because she is making statements which trans people disagree with.
I’d like to meet one of these legendary salt-of-the-earth red wall voters some day. They appear to have very well known and homogenous views on all current political issues, despite their varied ages, socio-economic levels and prior voting records.
If you are ever in the Nottingham area I will take you down my allotment where at least 5 of my close neighbours are former Labour voters - now they vote Ashfield Independents in the locals and Boris in the nationals - why? Brexit
How long do you think Brexit will continue to drive your fellow allotment holders' voting for?
As long as Boris is there - he can do no wrong
Well the polling says otherwise, never mind your sample size of 5.
See Labour vote in Ashfield DC election results 2021
I'm surprised at HY having such a downer on The Truss.
She's exactly the sort of swivel eyed loon that I thought he'd drool over.
JRM I can swoon over as he is actually a conservative unlike Truss
In the event that Boris is defenestrated or demits office of his own accord, what do you think of the chances that a low-key John Major-like figure emerges? Someone like Steve Barclay or Ben Wallace for example?
I'm surprised at HY having such a downer on The Truss.
She's exactly the sort of swivel eyed loon that I thought he'd drool over.
Liz Truss was once a Lib Dem - so in HYUFD’s world she’s persona non grata
The funny thing is HYUFD has a hard on for these mythical Red Wall voters he's invented in his head who never voted Tory before but are the hardest of hardcore Tories in his eyes - rather than viewing those voters as persona non grata.
The "woke" might be the loudest but they are not the majority of the left by any way, just as the hang them all crowd on Twitter don't represent the right.
I continue to be of the view that most people sit in the centre, hence why Labour has now recovered
Let us never forget @CorrectHorseBattery that "The Woke" as an entity is entirely a self-serving invention of right-wingers, to give themselves something to rail against.
It’s not. Just look at the mess at the American School for example
I’m very happy with @Benpointer’s view. The more the left clings to the view is that wokeness is a made up concept, the more they will get hammered at the next elections both in the U.K. and US
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
They voted for Boris to get Brexit done and to beat Corbyn. If Boris goes they will not vote for libertarian Remainer Truss, they will either vote Labour again or go ReformUK
Why did they vote for Boris?
Boris is upbeat and speaks the language of opportunity. He spoke about building up and levelling up communities and seeking opportunities post-Brexit.
Truss does the same thing. Thatcher and Cameron did the same thing.
Its what good leaders do and Truss has it.
Rubbish, they voted for Boris as he was a Leaver who they knew would get Brexit done.
Red Wallers also tend to be economically big state but socially conservative. hence Boris needed to promise big spending and an end to austerity to win them as well as to deliver Brexit. Remember most of them did not vote for Cameron or even Thatcher let alone May, Boris was the first Tory leader they ever voted for.
Red Wallers will not vote for an economically small state, socially liberal ex Remainer like Truss. They will either go back to Labour or vote ReformUK
Again you're talking total bollocks and don't understand a thing about the Red Wall. When was the last time you went canvassing in the Red Wall?
Actually over the past decade there's been a swing in these parts from Labour to Tory.
I have friends, colleagues and neighbours up here who've transitioned to voting Tory in the past decade but please lecture me some more about how those where I live are all wanting your style of Remain voting Southern Conservative politics.
I'm surprised at HY having such a downer on The Truss.
She's exactly the sort of swivel eyed loon that I thought he'd drool over.
Liz Truss was once a Lib Dem - so in HYUFD’s world she’s persona non grata
The funny thing is HYUFD has a hard on for these mythical Red Wall voters he's invented in his head who never voted Tory before but are the hardest of hardcore Tories in his eyes - rather than viewing those voters as persona non grata.
I'm surprised at HY having such a downer on The Truss.
She's exactly the sort of swivel eyed loon that I thought he'd drool over.
Liz Truss was once a Lib Dem - so in HYUFD’s world she’s persona non grata
Yebbut JRM is a Catholic* - how can he be a true Tory in HY's eyes?
(*Yes I know Johnson is too, nominally, but let's be honest no one thinks he takes it seriously)
There are plenty of Catholic conservatives, you can be a Catholic conservative in the UK as long as you back the Monarchy as Head of the Church of England as JRM and Boris do.
Matthew Goodwin made a good point on the woke/social justice issue. Around 15% of the population in the UK has a negative view of Britain/it's past etc. They are disproportionately vocal on social media, in universities and generally very censorious in their behaviour. Labour probably needs the support of a lot of them but if they pander to these voters they're doomed.
Yes, that sounds about right. 15% of the country but about 70% of really active Labour members and MPs
This is why they cannot win, at the moment. The Dems are in a similar position in America, and entirely reliant on Trump standing again to have a chance in 2024
The telegraph today has a theory that Biden will send Kamala to SCOTUS so he can have a second go at succession planning.
Is there a SCOTUS vacancy imminent?
As many as he wants prior to mid terms. After that no.
Biden doesn't have a majority to expand the court, Joe Manchin won't vote for it.
The thing about the Israelis, highly technically advanced in medicine and computer science....I would put a lot more faith on them than the plonkers from Warwick University or Professor Pantsdown with their models using massively outdated ML.
The Israelis have consistently been amongst the best at testing, tracing, treating, vaccination and so on. That they have reacted the way they have suggests that they see a potential catastrophe, even if they are still as uncertain as the rest of the world.
If I remember correctly, they were world beating in keeping it under control, but had to turn off their app because people were complaining it was basically state spying (even though everybody knows they do that already).
In my experience of computer science / machine learning world, Israeli academics punch miles above their weight, consistently pumping out top quality papers.
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
They voted for Boris to get Brexit done and to beat Corbyn. If Boris goes they will not vote for libertarian Remainer Truss, they will either vote Labour again or go ReformUK
Why did they vote for Boris?
Boris is upbeat and speaks the language of opportunity. He spoke about building up and levelling up communities and seeking opportunities post-Brexit.
Truss does the same thing. Thatcher and Cameron did the same thing.
Its what good leaders do and Truss has it.
Rubbish, they voted for Boris as he was a Leaver who they knew would get Brexit done.
Red Wallers also tend to be economically big state but socially conservative. hence Boris needed to promise big spending and an end to austerity to win them as well as to deliver Brexit. Remember most of them did not vote for Cameron or even Thatcher let alone May, Boris was the first Tory leader they ever voted for.
Red Wallers will not vote for an economically small state, socially liberal ex Remainer like Truss. They will either go back to Labour or vote ReformUK
Again you're talking total bollocks and don't understand a thing about the Red Wall. When was the last time you went canvassing in the Red Wall?
Actually over the past decade there's been a swing in these parts from Labour to Tory.
I have friends, colleagues and neighbours up here who've transitioned to voting Tory in the past decade but please lecture me some more about how those where I live are all wanting your style of Remain voting Southern Conservative politics.
Wondered when BJO would be back to say Starmer must resign.
Leading in polls and more popular than Johnson, still let's get Corbyn back and give the Tories another landslide
You are in for a terrible realisation after the next GE.
Who said owt about get Corbyn back?
Who would you like instead of Starmer?
I would like Andy Burnham but I suspect SKS will now make it impossible for him to become a by election candidate as he would be such an obvious replacement for SKS if he did.
Burnham polls worse than Starmer in literally every way
I’d like to meet one of these legendary salt-of-the-earth red wall voters some day. They appear to have very well known and homogenous views on all current political issues, despite their varied ages, socio-economic levels and prior voting records.
If you are ever in the Nottingham area I will take you down my allotment where at least 5 of my close neighbours are former Labour voters - now they vote Ashfield Independents in the locals and Boris in the nationals - why? Brexit
What do you think the allotment holders think will change in their lives now we have Boris and Brexit?
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
They voted for Boris to get Brexit done and to beat Corbyn. If Boris goes they will not vote for libertarian Remainer Truss, they will either vote Labour again or go ReformUK
Why did they vote for Boris?
Boris is upbeat and speaks the language of opportunity. He spoke about building up and levelling up communities and seeking opportunities post-Brexit.
Truss does the same thing. Thatcher and Cameron did the same thing.
Its what good leaders do and Truss has it.
Rubbish, they voted for Boris as he was a Leaver who they knew would get Brexit done.
Red Wallers also tend to be economically big state but socially conservative. hence Boris needed to promise big spending and an end to austerity to win them as well as to deliver Brexit. Remember most of them did not vote for Cameron or even Thatcher let alone May, Boris was the first Tory leader they ever voted for.
Red Wallers will not vote for an economically small state, socially liberal ex Remainer like Truss. They will either go back to Labour or vote ReformUK
Again you're talking total bollocks and don't understand a thing about the Red Wall. When was the last time you went canvassing in the Red Wall?
Actually over the past decade there's been a swing in these parts from Labour to Tory.
I have friends, colleagues and neighbours up here who've transitioned to voting Tory in the past decade but please lecture me some more about how those where I live are all wanting your style of Remain voting Southern Conservative politics.
Truss was a Remainer.
So was HYUFD if memory serves...
I am not putting myself forward as a leader designed to appeal to the RedWall like Truss would be.
I also have always backed the monarchy unlike Truss and I was never a member of the LDs unlike Truss either
The "woke" might be the loudest but they are not the majority of the left by any way, just as the hang them all crowd on Twitter don't represent the right.
I continue to be of the view that most people sit in the centre, hence why Labour has now recovered
Let us never forget @CorrectHorseBattery that "The Woke" as an entity is entirely a self-serving invention of right-wingers, to give themselves something to rail against.
It’s not. Just look at the mess at the American School for example
I’m very happy with @Benpointer’s view. The more the left clings to the view is that wokeness is a made up concept, the more they will get hammered at the next elections both in the U.K. and US
Yep
Haha! You're pissing into the wind, and the wind is: the long sweep of human history.
Carry on pissing but you're going to get drenched!
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
They voted for Boris to get Brexit done and to beat Corbyn. If Boris goes they will not vote for libertarian Remainer Truss, they will either vote Labour again or go ReformUK
Why did they vote for Boris?
Boris is upbeat and speaks the language of opportunity. He spoke about building up and levelling up communities and seeking opportunities post-Brexit.
Truss does the same thing. Thatcher and Cameron did the same thing.
Its what good leaders do and Truss has it.
Rubbish, they voted for Boris as he was a Leaver who they knew would get Brexit done.
Red Wallers also tend to be economically big state but socially conservative. hence Boris needed to promise big spending and an end to austerity to win them as well as to deliver Brexit. Remember most of them did not vote for Cameron or even Thatcher let alone May, Boris was the first Tory leader they ever voted for.
Red Wallers will not vote for an economically small state, socially liberal ex Remainer like Truss. They will either go back to Labour or vote ReformUK
Again you're talking total bollocks and don't understand a thing about the Red Wall. When was the last time you went canvassing in the Red Wall?
Actually over the past decade there's been a swing in these parts from Labour to Tory.
I have friends, colleagues and neighbours up here who've transitioned to voting Tory in the past decade but please lecture me some more about how those where I live are all wanting your style of Remain voting Southern Conservative politics.
Truss was a Remainer.
So was HYUFD if memory serves...
I am not putting myself forward as a leader designed to appeal to the RedWall like Truss would be.
I also have always backed the monarchy unlike Truss and I was never a member of the LDs unlike Truss either
Because having a 100% voting record for the Conservatives is exactly what is important in RedWall circles. 🤦♂️
I’d like to meet one of these legendary salt-of-the-earth red wall voters some day. They appear to have very well known and homogenous views on all current political issues, despite their varied ages, socio-economic levels and prior voting records.
If you are ever in the Nottingham area I will take you down my allotment where at least 5 of my close neighbours are former Labour voters - now they vote Ashfield Independents in the locals and Boris in the nationals - why? Brexit
How long do you think Brexit will continue to drive your fellow allotment holders' voting for?
As long as Boris is there - he can do no wrong
Thanks - you've ruined my evening.
But I do believe you've highlighted the way a sector of the country feels about Johnson. Sadly.
Sorry - but as I said in my first post a lot of posters here do not understand how popular Boris is despite being a buffoon
The thing about the Israelis, highly technically advanced in medicine and computer science....I would put a lot more faith on them than the plonkers from Warwick University or Professor Pantsdown with their models using massively outdated ML.
The Israelis have consistently been amongst the best at testing, tracing, treating, vaccination and so on. That they have reacted the way they have suggests that they see a potential catastrophe, even if they are still as uncertain as the rest of the world.
If I remember correctly, they were world beating in keeping it under control, but had to turn off their app because people were complaining it was basically state spying (even though everybody knows they do that already).
In my experience of computer science / machine learning world, Israeli academics punch miles above their weight, consistently pumping out top quality papers.
Israel is turning the mobile phone tracking back "on" to deal with Omicron.
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
They voted for Boris to get Brexit done and to beat Corbyn. If Boris goes they will not vote for libertarian Remainer Truss, they will either vote Labour again or go ReformUK
Why did they vote for Boris?
Boris is upbeat and speaks the language of opportunity. He spoke about building up and levelling up communities and seeking opportunities post-Brexit.
Truss does the same thing. Thatcher and Cameron did the same thing.
Its what good leaders do and Truss has it.
Rubbish, they voted for Boris as he was a Leaver who they knew would get Brexit done.
Red Wallers also tend to be economically big state but socially conservative. hence Boris needed to promise big spending and an end to austerity to win them as well as to deliver Brexit. Remember most of them did not vote for Cameron or even Thatcher let alone May, Boris was the first Tory leader they ever voted for.
Red Wallers will not vote for an economically small state, socially liberal ex Remainer like Truss. They will either go back to Labour or vote ReformUK
Again you're talking total bollocks and don't understand a thing about the Red Wall. When was the last time you went canvassing in the Red Wall?
Actually over the past decade there's been a swing in these parts from Labour to Tory.
I have friends, colleagues and neighbours up here who've transitioned to voting Tory in the past decade but please lecture me some more about how those where I live are all wanting your style of Remain voting Southern Conservative politics.
Truss was a Remainer.
Most of these Red Wall seats voted for Kinnock, Brown and Ed Miliband and even Corbyn in 2017, they are traditional Labour seats not swing seats Blair or the LDs won which went Tory in 2010 and 2015.
To hold them the Tories would need a leader who is economically big state but was a Leaver like Boris, they are not going to vote for a leader who is economically small state but was a Remainer like Truss
Historically speaking, they might vote Truss if she is the Socialist you claim.
I’d like to meet one of these legendary salt-of-the-earth red wall voters some day. They appear to have very well known and homogenous views on all current political issues, despite their varied ages, socio-economic levels and prior voting records.
If you are ever in the Nottingham area I will take you down my allotment where at least 5 of my close neighbours are former Labour voters - now they vote Ashfield Independents in the locals and Boris in the nationals - why? Brexit
How long do you think Brexit will continue to drive your fellow allotment holders' voting for?
As long as Boris is there - he can do no wrong
Thanks - you've ruined my evening.
But I do believe you've highlighted the way a sector of the country feels about Johnson. Sadly.
Sorry - but as I said in my first post a lot of posters here do not understand how popular Boris is despite being a buffoon
Wondered when BJO would be back to say Starmer must resign.
Leading in polls and more popular than Johnson, still let's get Corbyn back and give the Tories another landslide
You are in for a terrible realisation after the next GE.
Who said owt about get Corbyn back?
Who would you like instead of Starmer?
I would like Andy Burnham but I suspect SKS will now make it impossible for him to become a by election candidate as he would be such an obvious replacement for SKS if he did.
Burnham polls worse than Starmer in literally every way
I’d like to meet one of these legendary salt-of-the-earth red wall voters some day. They appear to have very well known and homogenous views on all current political issues, despite their varied ages, socio-economic levels and prior voting records.
If you are ever in the Nottingham area I will take you down my allotment where at least 5 of my close neighbours are former Labour voters - now they vote Ashfield Independents in the locals and Boris in the nationals - why? Brexit
What do you think the allotment holders think will change in their lives now we have Boris and Brexit?
Nothing - He got Brexit sorted out that's all that counts
Johnson could lose narrowly his majority in 2023/24 if he dips below 10% ahead of Starmer in the best PM rating. Theresa May was 9% ahead of Corbyn by that metric in the last poll before 2017. Although The Tories are still likely to end up on around 315 seats and will likely carry on.
Starmer's problem is he has struggled to get more than 30-35% in the best PM rating and I can't see that changing.
The thing about the Israelis, highly technically advanced in medicine and computer science....I would put a lot more faith on them than the plonkers from Warwick University or Professor Pantsdown with their models using massively outdated ML.
The Israelis have consistently been amongst the best at testing, tracing, treating, vaccination and so on. That they have reacted the way they have suggests that they see a potential catastrophe, even if they are still as uncertain as the rest of the world.
If I remember correctly, they were world beating in keeping it under control, but had to turn off their app because people were complaining it was basically state spying (even though everybody knows they do that already).
In my experience of computer science / machine learning world, Israeli academics punch miles above their weight, consistently pumping out top quality papers.
Israel is turning the mobile phone tracking back "on" to deal with Omicron.
I haven't read that, but if that's true, I would put that down as another red flag......
The "woke" might be the loudest but they are not the majority of the left by any way, just as the hang them all crowd on Twitter don't represent the right.
I continue to be of the view that most people sit in the centre, hence why Labour has now recovered
Let us never forget @CorrectHorseBattery that "The Woke" as an entity is entirely a self-serving invention of right-wingers, to give themselves something to rail against.
It’s not. Just look at the mess at the American School for example
How does that prove the existence of The Woke as an entitity?
'Head teacher of exclusive private school implementing some crazy ideas and forced to resign' is hardly the end of civilisation as we know it.
All this reminds me of MultiCulturalism.
"That one wacky instance doesn't mean there is any such thing as MultiCultrailism in the real world"
and at the same time
"If you are against MultiCultuiralism, you are against multiple cultures in the same country. Therefore you are literally Hitler."
Here's an exclusive private school head teacher talking a lot of sense on the subject:
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
True that Kim Campbell was grossly over-promoted and ended up going splat in spectacular fashion in 1993 general election.
However, that defeat was NOT her fault, it was a massive vote AGAINST her predecessor, Brian Mulroney - the same guy who scored a landslide majority in 1988.
I remember both of these elections quite well. In 1988 yours truly drove up from West Virginia to Ontario, and visited the local riding headquarters of all three main candidates - Liberal, NDP and Progressive Conservative) in the Niagara Falls riding. Mulroney was riding high and signs of impending Tory victory were everywhere, including in the atmosphere at all three campaign offices.
In 1993, I drove up from Seattle to Vancouver, British Columbia a few weeks before the election. The mood was quite different. Then the words on every other lip were "Lyin' Brian" and the fact that Kim Campbell was a fresh, young-ish face from BC cut no ice there or anywhere else.
Interestingly the last hurrah of the formerly-dominant provincial BC Social Credit Party had taken place two years earlier in 1991. At that time disgraced Premier Bill Vander Zalm was replaced by Rita Johnson. She went on to lose that year's provincial election big-time; her party was reduced to a wretched rump in the legislature and has never recovered, being replaced provincially on the center-right by the BC Liberals (a separate organization the federal Liberal Party that is dominated by people who are Tories federally).
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
They voted for Boris to get Brexit done and to beat Corbyn. If Boris goes they will not vote for libertarian Remainer Truss, they will either vote Labour again or go ReformUK
Why did they vote for Boris?
Boris is upbeat and speaks the language of opportunity. He spoke about building up and levelling up communities and seeking opportunities post-Brexit.
Truss does the same thing. Thatcher and Cameron did the same thing.
Its what good leaders do and Truss has it.
Rubbish, they voted for Boris as he was a Leaver who they knew would get Brexit done.
Red Wallers also tend to be economically big state but socially conservative. hence Boris needed to promise big spending and an end to austerity to win them as well as to deliver Brexit. Remember most of them did not vote for Cameron or even Thatcher let alone May, Boris was the first Tory leader they ever voted for.
Red Wallers will not vote for an economically small state, socially liberal ex Remainer like Truss. They will either go back to Labour or vote ReformUK
I’m going to agree with @HYUFD here, I don’t think Truss is going to appeal to them, she comes across as the sort of Conservative leader who would backslide on Brexit by saying how important it is to sign trade deals with Europe. She also comes across as a middle class “I know what’s best” type which also wouldn’t go down well.
It's a good question though. In the event that BoJo does blow up, who keeps the current Conservative coalition together?
Not Rishi, because he will cut spending to balance the books and cut taxes. Red Wallers won't like spending cuts.
Not Liz, too libertarian.
Who is there, apart from BoJo, with the degree of chutzpah to keep both Hartlepool and Hampshire on board?
- New cases: 2,858 - Average: 1,975 (+310) - Positivity rate: 9.8% (+0.6) - In hospital: 2,232 (+3) - In ICU: 231 (-2) - New deaths: 6 - Average: 32 (+1)
That doesn't look like a cytokine storm of the South African state. It actually looks like an infectious new strain with no increased virulence. Modestly encouraging
Its a Sunday in a country that doesn't test that much....
I'm talking about the hospital/ICU stats
Come you know the deal. It takes time for it to feed through to hospitalizations. A week ago positivity was low, now its 10%.
Is PB really critting me for being faintly optimistic?!
Jeeez Denise
for posting any old rubbish without even thinking about it.
- New cases: 2,858 - Average: 1,975 (+310) - Positivity rate: 9.8% (+0.6) - In hospital: 2,232 (+3) - In ICU: 231 (-2) - New deaths: 6 - Average: 32 (+1)
That doesn't look like a cytokine storm of the South African state. It actually looks like an infectious new strain with no increased virulence. Modestly encouraging
Its a Sunday in a country that doesn't test that much....
I'm talking about the hospital/ICU stats
Come you know the deal. It takes time for it to feed through to hospitalizations. A week ago positivity was low, now its 10%.
Is PB really critting me for being faintly optimistic?!
Jeeez Denise
for posting any old rubbish without even thinking about it.
Hope you are well Ian, thanks for your kind words of late.
An urgent hunt for contacts of the three UK cases continued today as members of a church congregation and staff, customers and delivery workers at a KFC outlet have been told to get a PCR test for the Omicron variant after it was detected in Brentwood.
Essex County Council said the targeted testing affects anyone who visited the KFC in Brentwood High Street on November 19, between 1pm and 5pm. The authority said it also affects people who attended Trinity Church in Pilgrims Hatch on November 21.
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
They voted for Boris to get Brexit done and to beat Corbyn. If Boris goes they will not vote for libertarian Remainer Truss, they will either vote Labour again or go ReformUK
Why did they vote for Boris?
Boris is upbeat and speaks the language of opportunity. He spoke about building up and levelling up communities and seeking opportunities post-Brexit.
Truss does the same thing. Thatcher and Cameron did the same thing.
Its what good leaders do and Truss has it.
Rubbish, they voted for Boris as he was a Leaver who they knew would get Brexit done.
Red Wallers also tend to be economically big state but socially conservative. hence Boris needed to promise big spending and an end to austerity to win them as well as to deliver Brexit. Remember most of them did not vote for Cameron or even Thatcher let alone May, Boris was the first Tory leader they ever voted for.
Red Wallers will not vote for an economically small state, socially liberal ex Remainer like Truss. They will either go back to Labour or vote ReformUK
I’m going to agree with @HYUFD here, I don’t think Truss is going to appeal to them, she comes across as the sort of Conservative leader who would backslide on Brexit by saying how important it is to sign trade deals with Europe. She also comes across as a middle class “I know what’s best” type which also wouldn’t go down well.
It's a good question though. In the event that BoJo does blow up, who keeps the current Conservative coalition together?
Not Rishi, because he will cut spending to balance the books and cut taxes. Red Wallers won't like spending cuts.
Not Liz, too libertarian.
Who is there, apart from BoJo, with the degree of chutzpah to keep both Hartlepool and Hampshire on board?
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
They voted for Boris to get Brexit done and to beat Corbyn. If Boris goes they will not vote for libertarian Remainer Truss, they will either vote Labour again or go ReformUK
Why did they vote for Boris?
Boris is upbeat and speaks the language of opportunity. He spoke about building up and levelling up communities and seeking opportunities post-Brexit.
Truss does the same thing. Thatcher and Cameron did the same thing.
Its what good leaders do and Truss has it.
Rubbish, they voted for Boris as he was a Leaver who they knew would get Brexit done.
Red Wallers also tend to be economically big state but socially conservative. hence Boris needed to promise big spending and an end to austerity to win them as well as to deliver Brexit. Remember most of them did not vote for Cameron or even Thatcher let alone May, Boris was the first Tory leader they ever voted for.
Red Wallers will not vote for an economically small state, socially liberal ex Remainer like Truss. They will either go back to Labour or vote ReformUK
Again you're talking total bollocks and don't understand a thing about the Red Wall. When was the last time you went canvassing in the Red Wall?
Actually over the past decade there's been a swing in these parts from Labour to Tory.
I have friends, colleagues and neighbours up here who've transitioned to voting Tory in the past decade but please lecture me some more about how those where I live are all wanting your style of Remain voting Southern Conservative politics.
Truss was a Remainer.
Most of these Red Wall seats voted for Kinnock, Brown and Ed Miliband and even Corbyn in 2017, they are traditional Labour seats not swing seats Blair or the LDs won which went Tory in 2010 and 2015.
To hold them the Tories would need a leader who is economically big state but was a Leaver like Boris, they are not going to vote for a leader who is economically small state but was a Remainer like Truss
I understand Jeremy Corbyn is at a loose end at the moment.
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
True that Kim Campbell was grossly over-promoted and ended up going splat in spectacular fashion in 1993 general election.
However, that defeat was NOT her fault, it was a massive vote AGAINST her predecessor, Brian Mulroney - the same guy who scored a landslide majority in 1988.
I remember both of these elections quite well. In 1988 yours truly drove up from West Virginia to Ontario, and visited the local riding headquarters of all three main candidates - Liberal, NDP and Progressive Conservative) in the Niagara Falls riding. Mulroney was riding high and signs of impending Tory victory were everywhere, including in the atmosphere at all three campaign offices.
In 1993, I drove up from Seattle to Vancouver, British Columbia a few weeks before the election. The mood was quite different. Then the words on every other lip were "Lyin' Brian" and the fact that Kim Campbell was a fresh, young-ish face from BC cut no ice there or anywhere else.
Interestingly the last hurrah of the formerly-dominant provincial BC Social Credit Party had taken place two years earlier in 1991. At that time disgraced Premier Bill Vander Zalm was replaced by Rita Johnson. She went on to lose that year's provincial election big-time; her party was reduced to a wretched rump in the legislature and has never recovered, being replaced provincially on the center-right by the BC Liberals (a separate organization the federal Liberal Party that is dominated by people who are Tories federally).
It wasn't, Mulroney was a charismatic leader who won 2 landslides victories in 1984 and 1988. Indeed he was the most successful Canadian Conservative leader since WW2 and indeed still is, having won 2 majorities to Harper's 1.
Campbell however not only led the PCs to a landslide defeat she also enabled it to be so bad a defeat she lost most of her core vote to the Canadian Reform Party who overtook the PCs as the main party of the right, winning more votes and seats than the PCs did.
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
They voted for Boris to get Brexit done and to beat Corbyn. If Boris goes they will not vote for libertarian Remainer Truss, they will either vote Labour again or go ReformUK
Why did they vote for Boris?
Boris is upbeat and speaks the language of opportunity. He spoke about building up and levelling up communities and seeking opportunities post-Brexit.
Truss does the same thing. Thatcher and Cameron did the same thing.
Its what good leaders do and Truss has it.
Rubbish, they voted for Boris as he was a Leaver who they knew would get Brexit done.
Red Wallers also tend to be economically big state but socially conservative. hence Boris needed to promise big spending and an end to austerity to win them as well as to deliver Brexit. Remember most of them did not vote for Cameron or even Thatcher let alone May, Boris was the first Tory leader they ever voted for.
Red Wallers will not vote for an economically small state, socially liberal ex Remainer like Truss. They will either go back to Labour or vote ReformUK
I’m going to agree with @HYUFD here, I don’t think Truss is going to appeal to them, she comes across as the sort of Conservative leader who would backslide on Brexit by saying how important it is to sign trade deals with Europe. She also comes across as a middle class “I know what’s best” type which also wouldn’t go down well.
It's a good question though. In the event that BoJo does blow up, who keeps the current Conservative coalition together?
Not Rishi, because he will cut spending to balance the books and cut taxes. Red Wallers won't like spending cuts.
Not Liz, too libertarian.
Who is there, apart from BoJo, with the degree of chutzpah to keep both Hartlepool and Hampshire on board?
Priti
My sense is that Priti is very, very unpopular in the Blue Wall
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
They voted for Boris to get Brexit done and to beat Corbyn. If Boris goes they will not vote for libertarian Remainer Truss, they will either vote Labour again or go ReformUK
Why did they vote for Boris?
Boris is upbeat and speaks the language of opportunity. He spoke about building up and levelling up communities and seeking opportunities post-Brexit.
Truss does the same thing. Thatcher and Cameron did the same thing.
Its what good leaders do and Truss has it.
Rubbish, they voted for Boris as he was a Leaver who they knew would get Brexit done.
Red Wallers also tend to be economically big state but socially conservative. hence Boris needed to promise big spending and an end to austerity to win them as well as to deliver Brexit. Remember most of them did not vote for Cameron or even Thatcher let alone May, Boris was the first Tory leader they ever voted for.
Red Wallers will not vote for an economically small state, socially liberal ex Remainer like Truss. They will either go back to Labour or vote ReformUK
Again you're talking total bollocks and don't understand a thing about the Red Wall. When was the last time you went canvassing in the Red Wall?
Actually over the past decade there's been a swing in these parts from Labour to Tory.
I have friends, colleagues and neighbours up here who've transitioned to voting Tory in the past decade but please lecture me some more about how those where I live are all wanting your style of Remain voting Southern Conservative politics.
Truss was a Remainer.
Most of these Red Wall seats voted for Kinnock, Brown and Ed Miliband and even Corbyn in 2017, they are traditional Labour seats not swing seats Blair or the LDs won which went Tory in 2010 and 2015.
To hold them the Tories would need a leader who is economically big state but was a Leaver like Boris, they are not going to vote for a leader who is economically small state but was a Remainer like Truss
Historically speaking, they might vote Truss if she is the Socialist you claim.
I never said she was a Socialist, she is a Libertarian Liberal which is also not a Conservative
An urgent hunt for contacts of the three UK cases continued today as members of a church congregation and staff, customers and delivery workers at a KFC outlet have been told to get a PCR test for the Omicron variant after it was detected in Brentwood.
Essex County Council said the targeted testing affects anyone who visited the KFC in Brentwood High Street on November 19, between 1pm and 5pm. The authority said it also affects people who attended Trinity Church in Pilgrims Hatch on November 21.
In other news, horse owners were urged to shut their stable doors after a herd was seen wandering down the High Street.
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
They voted for Boris to get Brexit done and to beat Corbyn. If Boris goes they will not vote for libertarian Remainer Truss, they will either vote Labour again or go ReformUK
Why did they vote for Boris?
Boris is upbeat and speaks the language of opportunity. He spoke about building up and levelling up communities and seeking opportunities post-Brexit.
Truss does the same thing. Thatcher and Cameron did the same thing.
Its what good leaders do and Truss has it.
Rubbish, they voted for Boris as he was a Leaver who they knew would get Brexit done.
Red Wallers also tend to be economically big state but socially conservative. hence Boris needed to promise big spending and an end to austerity to win them as well as to deliver Brexit. Remember most of them did not vote for Cameron or even Thatcher let alone May, Boris was the first Tory leader they ever voted for.
Red Wallers will not vote for an economically small state, socially liberal ex Remainer like Truss. They will either go back to Labour or vote ReformUK
Again you're talking total bollocks and don't understand a thing about the Red Wall. When was the last time you went canvassing in the Red Wall?
Actually over the past decade there's been a swing in these parts from Labour to Tory.
I have friends, colleagues and neighbours up here who've transitioned to voting Tory in the past decade but please lecture me some more about how those where I live are all wanting your style of Remain voting Southern Conservative politics.
Truss was a Remainer.
Most of these Red Wall seats voted for Kinnock, Brown and Ed Miliband and even Corbyn in 2017, they are traditional Labour seats not swing seats Blair or the LDs won which went Tory in 2010 and 2015.
To hold them the Tories would need a leader who is economically big state but was a Leaver like Boris, they are not going to vote for a leader who is economically small state but was a Remainer like Truss
Why would you not want to vote for a Tory leader because of their views on Brexit when you agree with those views.
By the way, who was it who posted this morning that ‘The Wheel of Time’ wasn’t all tits and dragons?
I watched an episode earlier, and there weren’t any!
What a waste of an hour.
It could have been worse, you could have tried watching the Beatles documentary, an hour of watching them tootling trying to play the same chorus inbetween Paul McCartney ordering his lunch.
Breaking: The Dutch #RIVM has confirmed 13 #Omicron cases out of the 61 positives. #coronavirus #Corona
That’s 13 cases of OMICRON THE MIGHTY on just one flight to Europe. How many flights have come from Southern Africa to Europe, N America, Asia, in the last week or so? There must be a few thousand cases seeded worldwide
It depends how it impacts vaccinated populations. Does it put significantly more people in hospitals and morgues? If it doesn't, it's a blip not a gamechanger.
Yes, the evidence so far is that Omicron is only bad news for the non double vaccinated in terms of potential hospitalisation and death, certainly that is true for the young.
Even the older double vaccinated should be protected from it according to most scientists estimations once they have had their boosters which most over 70s now have had
What it certainly does mean is that we need to get on with double vaxxing our younger people as a matter of urgency. Action this day as Boris's hero used to say.
To come back to an earlier point I made - at what stage will the government consider compulsory vaccinations ? Can't be far off if this is as bad as some fear.
They won't do it unless they're absolutely desperate. Can you imagine how much screaming there will be if they go down the route of punitive fines as in Austria, and it takes about five minutes for somebody to crunch the numbers and work out that they're being disproportionately inflicted upon black people with low incomes?
Yes.
But - how many of those vote Tory?
Given a choice between kicking a lot of Labour voters and having his own voters suffer due to pressure on the NHS and restrictions on the wider population, given his extremely factional, even transactional approach I wouldn't go bail for Johnson holding out.
The answer has always been no vaccination then no hospital treatment.
Nope. That is callous and sets a horrific precedent for other life choices. The answer (if there has to be one) is to dis/incentivise through the tax system.
Its callous to delay the non-covid medical treatment of others because hospitals are wasting their resources on anti-vaxxers.
But I'd be quite happy to financially dis-incentivise anti-vaxxers firstly through their tax codes and secondly through charging them for any medical treatment they receive.
To save an unvaccinated person from a horrible death by Covid is not a waste of NHS resources.
If it costs the life of someone else who doesn't get treated because the hospital is full of unvaxxed covid victims then yes it is a total and utter waste of time
Just not a take I can get behind at all. Brutalist and simplistic. Eg -
25 year old has serious Covid, not vaxed, listened to antivax propaganda and was swayed, bit thick. Has a 75% chance of pulling through if treated, then normal life expectancy.
75 year old, chain smoker, high BP, now has serious Covid despite being vaxed. Has a 25% chance if treated, then a life expectancy of 82.
Who should be treated if only one can be?
Total bollocks from you as usual as you pit two unequal examples....why not 25 year old anti vaxxer with 75% to live if treated vs 25 year old with something not his fault and with 75% chance to live if treated.....this situation fuck the anti vaxxer letting him die just improves the gene pool. He is a darwin award winner grats him....
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
True that Kim Campbell was grossly over-promoted and ended up going splat in spectacular fashion in 1993 general election.
However, that defeat was NOT her fault, it was a massive vote AGAINST her predecessor, Brian Mulroney - the same guy who scored a landslide majority in 1988.
I remember both of these elections quite well. In 1988 yours truly drove up from West Virginia to Ontario, and visited the local riding headquarters of all three main candidates - Liberal, NDP and Progressive Conservative) in the Niagara Falls riding. Mulroney was riding high and signs of impending Tory victory were everywhere, including in the atmosphere at all three campaign offices.
In 1993, I drove up from Seattle to Vancouver, British Columbia a few weeks before the election. The mood was quite different. Then the words on every other lip were "Lyin' Brian" and the fact that Kim Campbell was a fresh, young-ish face from BC cut no ice there or anywhere else.
Interestingly the last hurrah of the formerly-dominant provincial BC Social Credit Party had taken place two years earlier in 1991. At that time disgraced Premier Bill Vander Zalm was replaced by Rita Johnson. She went on to lose that year's provincial election big-time; her party was reduced to a wretched rump in the legislature and has never recovered, being replaced provincially on the center-right by the BC Liberals (a separate organization the federal Liberal Party that is dominated by people who are Tories federally).
It wasn't, Mulroney was a charismatic leader who won 2 landslides victories in 1984 and 1988. Indeed he was the most successful Canadian Conservative leader since WW2 and indeed still is, having won 2 majorities to Harper's 1.
Campbell however not only led the PCs to a landslide defeat she also enabled it to be so bad a defeat she lost most of her core vote to the Canadian Reform Party who overtook the PCs as the main party of the right, winning more votes and seats than the PCs did.
Matthew Goodwin made a good point on the woke/social justice issue. Around 15% of the population in the UK has a negative view of Britain/it's past etc. They are disproportionately vocal on social media, in universities and generally very censorious in their behaviour. Labour probably needs the support of a lot of them but if they pander to these voters they're doomed.
Yes, that sounds about right. 15% of the country but about 70% of really active Labour members and MPs
This is why they cannot win, at the moment. The Dems are in a similar position in America, and entirely reliant on Trump standing again to have a chance in 2024
The vast majority of them live in seats Labour would never lose anyway, so perhaps they could afford to upset some of them.
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
They voted for Boris to get Brexit done and to beat Corbyn. If Boris goes they will not vote for libertarian Remainer Truss, they will either vote Labour again or go ReformUK
Why did they vote for Boris?
Boris is upbeat and speaks the language of opportunity. He spoke about building up and levelling up communities and seeking opportunities post-Brexit.
Truss does the same thing. Thatcher and Cameron did the same thing.
Its what good leaders do and Truss has it.
Rubbish, they voted for Boris as he was a Leaver who they knew would get Brexit done.
Red Wallers also tend to be economically big state but socially conservative. hence Boris needed to promise big spending and an end to austerity to win them as well as to deliver Brexit. Remember most of them did not vote for Cameron or even Thatcher let alone May, Boris was the first Tory leader they ever voted for.
Red Wallers will not vote for an economically small state, socially liberal ex Remainer like Truss. They will either go back to Labour or vote ReformUK
Again you're talking total bollocks and don't understand a thing about the Red Wall. When was the last time you went canvassing in the Red Wall?
Actually over the past decade there's been a swing in these parts from Labour to Tory.
I have friends, colleagues and neighbours up here who've transitioned to voting Tory in the past decade but please lecture me some more about how those where I live are all wanting your style of Remain voting Southern Conservative politics.
Truss was a Remainer.
Most of these Red Wall seats voted for Kinnock, Brown and Ed Miliband and even Corbyn in 2017, they are traditional Labour seats not swing seats Blair or the LDs won which went Tory in 2010 and 2015.
To hold them the Tories would need a leader who is economically big state but was a Leaver like Boris, they are not going to vote for a leader who is economically small state but was a Remainer like Truss
Why would you not want to vote for a Tory leader because of their views on Brexit when you agree with those views.
She is also a former republican ex LD. She is not a Conservative whatever her views on Brexit and many traditional Conservatives would go ReformUK if she became leader
The "woke" might be the loudest but they are not the majority of the left by any way, just as the hang them all crowd on Twitter don't represent the right.
I continue to be of the view that most people sit in the centre, hence why Labour has now recovered
Let us never forget @CorrectHorseBattery that "The Woke" as an entity is entirely a self-serving invention of right-wingers, to give themselves something to rail against.
It’s not. Just look at the mess at the American School for example
How does that prove the existence of The Woke as an entitity?
'Head teacher of exclusive private school implementing some crazy ideas and forced to resign' is hardly the end of civilisation as we know it.
All this reminds me of MultiCulturalism.
"That one wacky instance doesn't mean there is any such thing as MultiCultrailism in the real world"
and at the same time
"If you are against MultiCultuiralism, you are against multiple cultures in the same country. Therefore you are literally Hitler."
Here's an exclusive private school head teacher talking a lot of sense on the subject:
This woman is wrong. It is one thing to take children's ideas about changing the world seriously, which all teachers should do. But if they then allow children to set the terms of speech, the teachers will ultimately lose all their respect and authority.
It is amazing how fast these schools seem to have fallen.
@HYUFD remember if you voted Refuck even once you could never call yourself a real Tory ever again. You’d be in the same club as @Philip_Thompson@Big_G_NorthWales and god forbid Liz Truss.
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
They voted for Boris to get Brexit done and to beat Corbyn. If Boris goes they will not vote for libertarian Remainer Truss, they will either vote Labour again or go ReformUK
Why did they vote for Boris?
Boris is upbeat and speaks the language of opportunity. He spoke about building up and levelling up communities and seeking opportunities post-Brexit.
Truss does the same thing. Thatcher and Cameron did the same thing.
Its what good leaders do and Truss has it.
Rubbish, they voted for Boris as he was a Leaver who they knew would get Brexit done.
Red Wallers also tend to be economically big state but socially conservative. hence Boris needed to promise big spending and an end to austerity to win them as well as to deliver Brexit. Remember most of them did not vote for Cameron or even Thatcher let alone May, Boris was the first Tory leader they ever voted for.
Red Wallers will not vote for an economically small state, socially liberal ex Remainer like Truss. They will either go back to Labour or vote ReformUK
Again you're talking total bollocks and don't understand a thing about the Red Wall. When was the last time you went canvassing in the Red Wall?
Actually over the past decade there's been a swing in these parts from Labour to Tory.
I have friends, colleagues and neighbours up here who've transitioned to voting Tory in the past decade but please lecture me some more about how those where I live are all wanting your style of Remain voting Southern Conservative politics.
Truss was a Remainer.
Most of these Red Wall seats voted for Kinnock, Brown and Ed Miliband and even Corbyn in 2017, they are traditional Labour seats not swing seats Blair or the LDs won which went Tory in 2010 and 2015.
To hold them the Tories would need a leader who is economically big state but was a Leaver like Boris, they are not going to vote for a leader who is economically small state but was a Remainer like Truss
Why would you not want to vote for a Tory leader because of their views on Brexit when you agree with those views.
She is also a former republican ex LD. She is not a Conservative whatever her views on Brexit and many traditional Conservatives would go ReformUK if she became leader
Many traditional Conservatives would grumble and put an X in the blue box. Just as they do now. Because woke or summat.
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
They voted for Boris to get Brexit done and to beat Corbyn. If Boris goes they will not vote for libertarian Remainer Truss, they will either vote Labour again or go ReformUK
Why did they vote for Boris?
Boris is upbeat and speaks the language of opportunity. He spoke about building up and levelling up communities and seeking opportunities post-Brexit.
Truss does the same thing. Thatcher and Cameron did the same thing.
Its what good leaders do and Truss has it.
Rubbish, they voted for Boris as he was a Leaver who they knew would get Brexit done.
Red Wallers also tend to be economically big state but socially conservative. hence Boris needed to promise big spending and an end to austerity to win them as well as to deliver Brexit. Remember most of them did not vote for Cameron or even Thatcher let alone May, Boris was the first Tory leader they ever voted for.
Red Wallers will not vote for an economically small state, socially liberal ex Remainer like Truss. They will either go back to Labour or vote ReformUK
Again you're talking total bollocks and don't understand a thing about the Red Wall. When was the last time you went canvassing in the Red Wall?
Actually over the past decade there's been a swing in these parts from Labour to Tory.
I have friends, colleagues and neighbours up here who've transitioned to voting Tory in the past decade but please lecture me some more about how those where I live are all wanting your style of Remain voting Southern Conservative politics.
Truss was a Remainer.
Most of these Red Wall seats voted for Kinnock, Brown and Ed Miliband and even Corbyn in 2017, they are traditional Labour seats not swing seats Blair or the LDs won which went Tory in 2010 and 2015.
To hold them the Tories would need a leader who is economically big state but was a Leaver like Boris, they are not going to vote for a leader who is economically small state but was a Remainer like Truss
Why would you not want to vote for a Tory leader because of their views on Brexit when you agree with those views.
She is also a former republican ex LD. She is not a Conservative whatever her views on Brexit and many traditional Conservatives would go ReformUK if she became leader
Former. Whereas you still think Brexit was a mistake.
Canada has confirmed two cases of the Omicron variant in federal capital Ottawa, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation reports. Both cases were recent arrivals from Nigeria and are Canada’s first from the new variant.
I presume they didn't catch it in Nigeria, as that is country that never has any covid ever.
@HYUFD remember if you voted Refuck even once you could never call yourself a real Tory ever again. You’d be in the same club as @Philip_Thompson@Big_G_NorthWales and god forbid Liz Truss.
No, as a republican libertarian like Truss is by definition not a Tory.
So there would no longer be a Tory party or Conservative party to vote for, hence a vote for RefUK would be to cleanse the party of Truss libertarian liberalism so it can then go back to core values and a traditional conservative party in opposition.
I am not saying I would do that but many conservatives would
Rundown of how the table felt about the UK's virus situation. Almost all were very positive, one person wasn't, now an academic, the pharma people universally disagreed with that person's assessment. The other two academics were sympathetic to the position but overall still thought we were in a favourable place to maintain our current freedom level and roll back the masks again in a few weeks.
The pharma people all said their internal modelling agreed with the LSHTM model on hospitalisations across Europe. They think Omicron will be very difficult in nations that suppressed the delta exit wave, all three academics said that they disagreed with the government's initial stance of unlock hard in July, but all have been won over by the data.
The big one - vaccine efficacy dilution. Much more mixed, but overall confidence from the pharma people that the vaccines will work to a good enough degree to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. The AZ person said that the UK will benefit from doing the majority of over 50s with two AZ doses and a Moderna/Pfizer booster. Their own study shows it gives the best broad spectrum t-cell and b-cell response which won't prevent any infections but will significantly reduce infection severity to the point that they said even with immune escape those people with 2x AZ and 1x Moderna/Pfizer have little to worry about. The table tended to agree that AZ/AZ/Moderna is probably the best combination. Someone suggested that the government should bring AZ back for 30+ booster shots. Another said that the WHO should make the standard three shot course mRNA/AZ/mRNA and that everyone in the UK who had three mRNA doses should be given the option of an AZ booster in the new year for the t/b-cell immunity that mRNA vaccines don't provide to as high a degree.
More generally - the group agreed that Chris Whitty was right that every single person in the country will eventually get COVID. One said that the government lulled itself into a false sense of security with the 95% efficacy on three doses but Omicron proves that we will all get it, probably multiple times over the course of life. They said the thinking in government reflects that but the masks have probably been brought back to "purchase" an R reduction of ~0.1 for a couple of weeks just in case Omicron explodes among the unvaccinated young and unboosted old in the run up to Xmas. This person is probably closest to the government and they said the the way NPIs are now rated is almost like a budget, each one is rated with its R value reduction and it is put against the cost of implementing it from an economic and social perspective. Masks have a low economic and medium social cost but also a very low R reduction. Closing schools has got a very high economic and social cost and also a very high R reduction, lockdown is rated as the highest for costs but a bit less than closing schools for R reduction.
Rundown of how the table felt about the UK's virus situation. Almost all were very positive, one person wasn't, now an academic, the pharma people universally disagreed with that person's assessment. The other two academics were sympathetic to the position but overall still thought we were in a favourable place to maintain our current freedom level and roll back the masks again in a few weeks.
The pharma people all said their internal modelling agreed with the LSHTM model on hospitalisations across Europe. They think Omicron will be very difficult in nations that suppressed the delta exit wave, all three academics said that they disagreed with the government's initial stance of unlock hard in July, but all have been won over by the data.
The big one - vaccine efficacy dilution. Much more mixed, but overall confidence from the pharma people that the vaccines will work to a good enough degree to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. The AZ person said that the UK will benefit from doing the majority of over 50s with two AZ doses and a Moderna/Pfizer booster. Their own study shows it gives the best broad spectrum t-cell and b-cell response which won't prevent any infections but will significantly reduce infection severity to the point that they said even with immune escape those people with 2x AZ and 1x Moderna/Pfizer have little to worry about. The table tended to agree that AZ/AZ/Moderna is probably the best combination. Someone suggested that the government should bring AZ back for 30+ booster shots. Another said that the WHO should make the standard three shot course mRNA/AZ/mRNA and that everyone in the UK who had three mRNA doses should be given the option of an AZ booster in the new year for the t/b-cell immunity that mRNA vaccines don't provide to as high a degree.
More generally - the group agreed that Chris Whitty was right that every single person in the country will eventually get COVID. One said that the government lulled itself into a false sense of security with the 95% efficacy on three doses but Omicron proves that we will all get it, probably multiple times over the course of life. They said the thinking in government reflects that but the masks have probably been brought back to "purchase" an R reduction of ~0.1 for a couple of weeks just in case Omicron explodes among the unvaccinated young and unboosted old in the run up to Xmas. This person is probably closest to the government and he said the the way NPIs are now rated is almost like a budget, each one is rated with its R value reduction and it is put against the cost of implementing it from an economic and social perspective. Masks have a low economic and medium social cost but also a very low R reduction. Closing schools has got a very high economic and social cost and also a very high R reduction, lockdown is rated as the highest for costs but a bit less than closing schools for R reduction.
Invaluable, and thanks again
Were there any opinions on the Reinfection issue? That's one of my primary worries, particularly re the UK
In 2015 I was told by a poster on here that if I wanted a referendum on Europe to vote Tory - I'm not a natural Conservative being Labour in principal. So I did - voting for Cameron then Cameron again and then Boris who finally enacted the Referendum result. All the time on this forum I was told by Labour posters that I was a racist for voting Leave and they wanted another referendum. When Boris goes my vote will go with him but to Labour? I think not. To Reform? No Most probably to the Greens.
@HYUFD remember if you voted Refuck even once you could never call yourself a real Tory ever again. You’d be in the same club as @Philip_Thompson@Big_G_NorthWales and god forbid Liz Truss.
No, as a republican libertarian like Truss is by definition not a Tory.
So there would no longer be a Tory party or Conservative party to vote for, hence a vote for RefUK would be to cleanse the party of Truss libertarian liberalism so it can then go back to core values and a traditional conservative party in opposition.
I am not saying I would do that but many conservatives would
On the other hand, I for one would be happy to vote for a true Liberal
If the Tories want to hand the RedWall back to Starmer on a plate then a libertarian, ex LD, ex Remainer, ex republican like Truss is the way to do it.
Not happening and indeed it would lead to large scale movement of traditional Conservatives to ReformUK too if Truss did become Tory leader
Speaking as someone who lives in the RedWall and whose vote is up for grabs next time, I think the like of Truss could go down well here.
What would not go down well is Conservatives banging on about how important inheriting a million pounds is in Essex.
She has Kim Campbell, Canadian Conservative PM in 1993, written all over her. A leader who led the Canadian Tories from a landslide majority inherited from her predecessor to a landslide defeat by the Canadian Liberals and even being overtaken on the right as the main party of opposition by the populist Canadian Reform Party
Balderdash and codswallop.
Its funny how your view of the Red Wall seems to be that Red Wall voters are all your own style of hardcore Essex longstanding Conservative voters. If that's the case, why weren't we all voting Tory for decades already?
True that Kim Campbell was grossly over-promoted and ended up going splat in spectacular fashion in 1993 general election.
However, that defeat was NOT her fault, it was a massive vote AGAINST her predecessor, Brian Mulroney - the same guy who scored a landslide majority in 1988.
I remember both of these elections quite well. In 1988 yours truly drove up from West Virginia to Ontario, and visited the local riding headquarters of all three main candidates - Liberal, NDP and Progressive Conservative) in the Niagara Falls riding. Mulroney was riding high and signs of impending Tory victory were everywhere, including in the atmosphere at all three campaign offices.
In 1993, I drove up from Seattle to Vancouver, British Columbia a few weeks before the election. The mood was quite different. Then the words on every other lip were "Lyin' Brian" and the fact that Kim Campbell was a fresh, young-ish face from BC cut no ice there or anywhere else.
Interestingly the last hurrah of the formerly-dominant provincial BC Social Credit Party had taken place two years earlier in 1991. At that time disgraced Premier Bill Vander Zalm was replaced by Rita Johnson. She went on to lose that year's provincial election big-time; her party was reduced to a wretched rump in the legislature and has never recovered, being replaced provincially on the center-right by the BC Liberals (a separate organization the federal Liberal Party that is dominated by people who are Tories federally).
It wasn't, Mulroney was a charismatic leader who won 2 landslides victories in 1984 and 1988. Indeed he was the most successful Canadian Conservative leader since WW2 and indeed still is, having won 2 majorities to Harper's 1.
Campbell however not only led the PCs to a landslide defeat she also enabled it to be so bad a defeat she lost most of her core vote to the Canadian Reform Party who overtook the PCs as the main party of the right, winning more votes and seats than the PCs did.
What I'm telling you, is that by 1993 Brian Mulroney was widely hated from coast to freaking coast. His charisma that had been so brilliant before was held AGAINST him.
HE was the problem, not his hapless, hopeless successor.
Strikes me that your argument is (somewhat) like blaming the collapse of the Third Reich on Admiral Dönitz. And crediting Hitler's triumphs while ignoring the backwash.
In 2015 I was told by a poster on here that if I wanted a referendum on Europe to vote Tory - I'm not a natural Conservative being Labour in principal. So I did - voting for Cameron then Cameron again and then Boris who finally enacted the Referendum result. All the time on this forum I was told by Labour posters that I was a racist for voting Leave and they wanted another referendum. When Boris goes my vote will go with him but to Labour? I think not. To Reform? No Most probably to the Greens.
Those people are idiots and I hope Labour might win your vote back one day
In 2015 I was told by a poster on here that if I wanted a referendum on Europe to vote Tory - I'm not a natural Conservative being Labour in principal. So I did - voting for Cameron then Cameron again and then Boris who finally enacted the Referendum result. All the time on this forum I was told by Labour posters that I was a racist for voting Leave and they wanted another referendum. When Boris goes my vote will go with him but to Labour? I think not. To Reform? No Most probably to the Greens.
Those people are idiots and I hope Labour might win your vote back one day
Your views and mine on politics are not that far apart
@HYUFD remember if you voted Refuck even once you could never call yourself a real Tory ever again. You’d be in the same club as @Philip_Thompson@Big_G_NorthWales and god forbid Liz Truss.
No, as a republican libertarian like Truss is by definition not a Tory.
So there would no longer be a Tory party or Conservative party to vote for, hence a vote for RefUK would be to cleanse the party of Truss libertarian liberalism so it can then go back to core values and a traditional conservative party in opposition.
I am not saying I would do that but many conservatives would
On the other hand, I for one would be happy to vote for a true Liberal
As would most of the 10% of the electorate who are Libertarians, however if most of the remaining 43% of the electorate who voted Tory in 2019 went RefUK because of a Truss Tory leadership, then RefUK would end up the main opposition party to a Starmer government
In 2015 I was told by a poster on here that if I wanted a referendum on Europe to vote Tory - I'm not a natural Conservative being Labour in principal. So I did - voting for Cameron then Cameron again and then Boris who finally enacted the Referendum result. All the time on this forum I was told by Labour posters that I was a racist for voting Leave and they wanted another referendum. When Boris goes my vote will go with him but to Labour? I think not. To Reform? No Most probably to the Greens.
Those people are idiots and I hope Labour might win your vote back one day
Your views and mine on politics are not that far apart
I vote tension and wanted to overturn your vote and I see that was the wrong decision now although I’d still like EEA. I’d vote to stay out if asked now
In 2015 I was told by a poster on here that if I wanted a referendum on Europe to vote Tory - I'm not a natural Conservative being Labour in principal. So I did - voting for Cameron then Cameron again and then Boris who finally enacted the Referendum result. All the time on this forum I was told by Labour posters that I was a racist for voting Leave and they wanted another referendum. When Boris goes my vote will go with him but to Labour? I think not. To Reform? No Most probably to the Greens.
Those people are idiots and I hope Labour might win your vote back one day
Your views and mine on politics are not that far apart
I vote tension and wanted to overturn your vote and I see that was the wrong decision now although I’d still like EEA. I’d vote to stay out if asked now
After the Referendum Brexit dominated my political views - my only wish was to get it done - I can only speak of myself but I'm sure my view was shared by other Labour voting brexit supporters - we were let down by the Party and especially the MPs - this is something I cannot forgive
Comments
What has been invented by the Right is "The Woke" as some malevolent social engineering sect.
Just read the wiki entry, it is spot on about woke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke
Actually over the past decade there's been a swing in these parts from Labour to Tory.
I have friends, colleagues and neighbours up here who've transitioned to voting Tory in the past decade but please lecture me some more about how those where I live are all wanting your style of Remain voting Southern Conservative politics.
"That one wacky instance doesn't mean there is any such thing as MultiCultrailism in the real world"
and at the same time
"If you are against MultiCultuiralism, you are against multiple cultures in the same country. Therefore you are literally Hitler."
If you don't like Truss just say so, stop trying to drag us in as an argument on your behalf.
Most of these Red Wall seats voted for Kinnock, Brown and Ed Miliband and even Corbyn in 2017, they are traditional Labour seats not swing seats Blair or the LDs won which went Tory in 2010 and 2015.
To hold them the Tories would need a leader who is economically big state but was a Leaver like Boris, they are not going to vote for a leader who is economically small state but was a Remainer like Truss
But I do believe you've highlighted the way a sector of the country feels about Johnson. Sadly.
Which then leads some to see absolutely everything through that lens and also how it is then ok to discriminate against one person who belongs to a particular group, because another is more oppressed or marginalized e.g. the academic at Sussex, its ok to hound a female lesbian academic because she is making statements which trans people disagree with.
(*Yes I know Johnson is too, nominally, but let's be honest no one thinks he takes it seriously)
In my experience of computer science / machine learning world, Israeli academics punch miles above their weight, consistently pumping out top quality papers.
I also have always backed the monarchy unlike Truss and I was never a member of the LDs unlike Truss either
Its here, its there, its every f##king where, Ohhhhh Mike Ron.....
Carry on pissing but you're going to get drenched!
I would probably vote Conservative as usual but I would have serious hesitations before putting the cross on my ballot paper
He's pretty strict on that bit.
Now you have shocked me!
Starmer's problem is he has struggled to get more than 30-35% in the best PM rating and I can't see that changing.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/22/dismiss-children-woke-will-give-dreams-headteacher-warns/
@hendopolis
·
37s
MAIL: Booster for ALL over 18s #TomorrowsPapersToday
However, that defeat was NOT her fault, it was a massive vote AGAINST her predecessor, Brian Mulroney - the same guy who scored a landslide majority in 1988.
I remember both of these elections quite well. In 1988 yours truly drove up from West Virginia to Ontario, and visited the local riding headquarters of all three main candidates - Liberal, NDP and Progressive Conservative) in the Niagara Falls riding. Mulroney was riding high and signs of impending Tory victory were everywhere, including in the atmosphere at all three campaign offices.
In 1993, I drove up from Seattle to Vancouver, British Columbia a few weeks before the election. The mood was quite different. Then the words on every other lip were "Lyin' Brian" and the fact that Kim Campbell was a fresh, young-ish face from BC cut no ice there or anywhere else.
Interestingly the last hurrah of the formerly-dominant provincial BC Social Credit Party had taken place two years earlier in 1991. At that time disgraced Premier Bill Vander Zalm was replaced by Rita Johnson. She went on to lose that year's provincial election big-time; her party was reduced to a wretched rump in the legislature and has never recovered, being replaced provincially on the center-right by the BC Liberals (a separate organization the federal Liberal Party that is dominated by people who are Tories federally).
Not Rishi, because he will cut spending to balance the books and cut taxes. Red Wallers won't like spending cuts.
Not Liz, too libertarian.
Who is there, apart from BoJo, with the degree of chutzpah to keep both Hartlepool and Hampshire on board?
Essex County Council said the targeted testing affects anyone who visited the KFC in Brentwood High Street on November 19, between 1pm and 5pm. The authority said it also affects people who attended Trinity Church in Pilgrims Hatch on November 21.
Campbell however not only led the PCs to a landslide defeat she also enabled it to be so bad a defeat she lost most of her core vote to the Canadian Reform Party who overtook the PCs as the main party of the right, winning more votes and seats than the PCs did.
I watched an episode earlier, and there weren’t any!
What a waste of an hour.
The person he should be compared against is Cameron at this stage in the Parliament, anyone done the numbeers, @TSE, @MikeSmithson?
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/11/28/fauci_responds_to_critics_when_people_criticize_me_they_are_criticizing_science.html
Be patient with yourself.
It is amazing how fast these schools seem to have fallen.
(Or me, for that matter.)
Just as they do now.
Because woke or summat.
I presume they didn't catch it in Nigeria, as that is country that never has any covid ever.
So there would no longer be a Tory party or Conservative party to vote for, hence a vote for RefUK would be to cleanse the party of Truss libertarian liberalism so it can then go back to core values and a traditional conservative party in opposition.
I am not saying I would do that but many conservatives would
The pharma people all said their internal modelling agreed with the LSHTM model on hospitalisations across Europe. They think Omicron will be very difficult in nations that suppressed the delta exit wave, all three academics said that they disagreed with the government's initial stance of unlock hard in July, but all have been won over by the data.
The big one - vaccine efficacy dilution. Much more mixed, but overall confidence from the pharma people that the vaccines will work to a good enough degree to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. The AZ person said that the UK will benefit from doing the majority of over 50s with two AZ doses and a Moderna/Pfizer booster. Their own study shows it gives the best broad spectrum t-cell and b-cell response which won't prevent any infections but will significantly reduce infection severity to the point that they said even with immune escape those people with 2x AZ and 1x Moderna/Pfizer have little to worry about. The table tended to agree that AZ/AZ/Moderna is probably the best combination. Someone suggested that the government should bring AZ back for 30+ booster shots. Another said that the WHO should make the standard three shot course mRNA/AZ/mRNA and that everyone in the UK who had three mRNA doses should be given the option of an AZ booster in the new year for the t/b-cell immunity that mRNA vaccines don't provide to as high a degree.
More generally - the group agreed that Chris Whitty was right that every single person in the country will eventually get COVID. One said that the government lulled itself into a false sense of security with the 95% efficacy on three doses but Omicron proves that we will all get it, probably multiple times over the course of life. They said the thinking in government reflects that but the masks have probably been brought back to "purchase" an R reduction of ~0.1 for a couple of weeks just in case Omicron explodes among the unvaccinated young and unboosted old in the run up to Xmas. This person is probably closest to the government and they said the the way NPIs are now rated is almost like a budget, each one is rated with its R value reduction and it is put against the cost of implementing it from an economic and social perspective. Masks have a low economic and medium social cost but also a very low R reduction. Closing schools has got a very high economic and social cost and also a very high R reduction, lockdown is rated as the highest for costs but a bit less than closing schools for R reduction.
Were there any opinions on the Reinfection issue? That's one of my primary worries, particularly re the UK
So I did - voting for Cameron then Cameron again and then Boris who finally enacted the Referendum result.
All the time on this forum I was told by Labour posters that I was a racist for voting Leave and they wanted another referendum.
When Boris goes my vote will go with him but to Labour? I think not. To Reform? No
Most probably to the Greens.
HE was the problem, not his hapless, hopeless successor.
Strikes me that your argument is (somewhat) like blaming the collapse of the Third Reich on Admiral Dönitz. And crediting Hitler's triumphs while ignoring the backwash.