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Johnson’s big HS3 gamble – politicalbetting.com

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,723
    edited November 2021
    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT because I took some time to go and find the data:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    King Cole, the bit after the Western Empire falls and before the Norman Conquest (especially pre-Alfred) is not the most popular in history for the general public.

    What annoys me is every single damned documentary or drama (well, the vast majority) are fixated retelling stories of Henry VIII and Elizabeth II when (even just looking at England) there are so many more interesting and neglected events and characters to consider.

    "The Vikings" did rather well from depicting the period, and the spin off "Vikings: Valhalla" covering the later period before the Norman conquest looks promising.

    The period that seems to be lacking is the early post Roman period. In a generation or two, we abandoned roads, towns and the trappings of urban life, turning back to subsistence farming and more egalitarian social structures.
    Perhaps we can find out about the latter in person, second time around? ;)
    The Dark Ages were only dark in the sense of the abandonment of Christianity, and also literacy. It happened between 409 and 450 or so, so a couple of generations. There seems surprisingly little evidence of resistance to going back to a simpler more sustainable communitarian lifestyle once the Romans stopped enforcing the alternative.
    Yes, it was a joke.

    Abandoning Christianity is known as progress ;)
    Abandoning Christianity will not lead to secular, highly educated atheists dominating, indeed atheists globally have a lower birthrate than the religious. If Christianity declines it will be Islam that largely fills the gap, especially in Europe
    I'm not sure that's true: the fastest growing portion of the US population is the ungodly.

    But it is interesting: in religious belief, as in so many areas, we are seeing real bifurcation and the hardening of extremes. There are more atheists than ever before, and also more religious fundamentalists. A body like the Church of England seems rather outdated.
    Globally it very much is true. In 2105 33% of global births were to Christians, 31% to Muslims and 10% to the religiously unaffiliated (including atheists and agnostics).

    By 2060 on current trends 36% of global births will be to Muslims, 35% to Christians and just 9% to the religiously unaffiliated

    https://www.pewforum.org/2017/04/05/the-changing-global-religious-landscape/.

    I do agree on your second paragraph, the fastest growth in religion globally is amongst evangelical Christians and Sunni Islam.

    The relatively liberal Church of England suits the largely secular UK but even there is in decline, the fastest growth in the Anglican church globally is in Africa where even the Anglican church is more evangelical, in the more liberal Anglican wing in the UK, Canada, the US, Australia and New Zealand there is decline. Although there is an evangelical wing of the Church of England it is smaller than the liberal wing now with a handful of Anglo Catholics too
    But @HYUFD - in the 1960s, atheism was much less common in the UK than it is today. Therefore almost everyone was born to religious parents.

    And yet the proportion of atheists has continued to rise.

    That is not entirely true, there were a fair number of atheists and agnostics in the UK in the 1960s. However churchgoing has declined significantly.

    However more significant still is the decline in the UK birthrate, now below replacement level and that means that the agnostic majority currently in the UK could actually decline percentage wise by 2050 as evangelical Christians and Muslims both already in the population and those who arrive as immigrants have significantly more children per head.

    Indeed the less white the UK becomes generally the more religious it will be (with the exception of Orientals)
    Will take quite a while.

    From the ONS, latest figures, religion in GB from 2011-2018:
    image
    Yes and as more and more Muslims from North Africa, South Asia and the Middle East (notice a slight rise on that graph already in the number of Muslims in the UK) and more evangelical Christians from Africa in the UK arrive then as I said the overall decline of the religious in the UK in the last few decades could start to reverse.

    In summary, the less white the UK becomes in turn generally the more religious the UK will start to become again (albeit we did have a fair number of Polish Catholics pre Brexit coming to the UK)
    Your assertions are, as usual, not back by the data. In a generally increasingly secular society even those groups who are observantly religious have also demonstrated an overall trend towards diminishing levels of religious activity. There is no evidence at all of any change in the general trend towards lower religious belief or activity.

    Whether that is a good or bad thing is a matter of opinion, but the facts are the facts.
    The opposite. Christianity in the UK is smaller than it was but more fervent as the more liberal Church of England declines while evangelical Pentecostal and Baptist churches grow and the more rigid Roman Catholic church is boosted by immigration from Eastern Europe. As the chart shows Islam is also growing in the UK and younger Muslims in the UK are often more radical than their elders.

    More evangelical Christian immigrants from Africa and Muslim immigrants from Asia will only expand that trend, in a largely secular society the minority who are religious in the UK will be more fervently religious than those who were religious in the UK 50 years ago even if more white Britons are atheist and agnostic than they were 50 years ago
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,103
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The reports on YCCC are awful, but so is the reporting. We do not need to have Paki and Monkey etc bleeped out - lets hear it. Its not being used as an abuse term now, its being used to call out the racists. Lets hear it so that we can shame them.

    Naive. People have lost careers for using the n word, even when in context - eg to show how the word was used by someone else. That can now get you fired and cancelled

    How is anyone to know if and when this arbitrary rule will be extended to the P word and beyond? They can’t. So they are understandably super cautious

    I recall predicting many years ago that one day racist terms would be seen as much more toxic and offensive than swear words in the 1950s

    And so it is. Perhaps that is a good thing, but my inner libertarian still thinks “they are just words, however stupid and ugly”
    I don't see a binary distinction between words and actions. Words are the result of an action - the action of writing or speaking. And this action, the writing or speaking of words, can do real damage. It can do just as much damage as other types of actions, eg punching and slapping, sometimes more.
    Do you think someone should lose their job for just quoting someone else using the N word?
  • Mr. Leon, by that metric Quentin Tarantino is screwed.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,330
    ping said:

    Gas prices back on the up

    Bloody Brexit !
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,965
    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT because I took some time to go and find the data:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    King Cole, the bit after the Western Empire falls and before the Norman Conquest (especially pre-Alfred) is not the most popular in history for the general public.

    What annoys me is every single damned documentary or drama (well, the vast majority) are fixated retelling stories of Henry VIII and Elizabeth II when (even just looking at England) there are so many more interesting and neglected events and characters to consider.

    "The Vikings" did rather well from depicting the period, and the spin off "Vikings: Valhalla" covering the later period before the Norman conquest looks promising.

    The period that seems to be lacking is the early post Roman period. In a generation or two, we abandoned roads, towns and the trappings of urban life, turning back to subsistence farming and more egalitarian social structures.
    Perhaps we can find out about the latter in person, second time around? ;)
    The Dark Ages were only dark in the sense of the abandonment of Christianity, and also literacy. It happened between 409 and 450 or so, so a couple of generations. There seems surprisingly little evidence of resistance to going back to a simpler more sustainable communitarian lifestyle once the Romans stopped enforcing the alternative.
    Yes, it was a joke.

    Abandoning Christianity is known as progress ;)
    Abandoning Christianity will not lead to secular, highly educated atheists dominating, indeed atheists globally have a lower birthrate than the religious. If Christianity declines it will be Islam that largely fills the gap, especially in Europe
    I'm not sure that's true: the fastest growing portion of the US population is the ungodly.

    But it is interesting: in religious belief, as in so many areas, we are seeing real bifurcation and the hardening of extremes. There are more atheists than ever before, and also more religious fundamentalists. A body like the Church of England seems rather outdated.
    Globally it very much is true. In 2105 33% of global births were to Christians, 31% to Muslims and 10% to the religiously unaffiliated (including atheists and agnostics).

    By 2060 on current trends 36% of global births will be to Muslims, 35% to Christians and just 9% to the religiously unaffiliated

    https://www.pewforum.org/2017/04/05/the-changing-global-religious-landscape/.

    I do agree on your second paragraph, the fastest growth in religion globally is amongst evangelical Christians and Sunni Islam.

    The relatively liberal Church of England suits the largely secular UK but even there is in decline, the fastest growth in the Anglican church globally is in Africa where even the Anglican church is more evangelical, in the more liberal Anglican wing in the UK, Canada, the US, Australia and New Zealand there is decline. Although there is an evangelical wing of the Church of England it is smaller than the liberal wing now with a handful of Anglo Catholics too
    But @HYUFD - in the 1960s, atheism was much less common in the UK than it is today. Therefore almost everyone was born to religious parents.

    And yet the proportion of atheists has continued to rise.

    That is not entirely true, there were a fair number of atheists and agnostics in the UK in the 1960s. However churchgoing has declined significantly.

    However more significant still is the decline in the UK birthrate, now below replacement level and that means that the agnostic majority currently in the UK could actually decline percentage wise by 2050 as evangelical Christians and Muslims both already in the population and those who arrive as immigrants have significantly more children per head.

    Indeed the less white the UK becomes generally the more religious it will be (with the exception of Orientals)
    Will take quite a while.

    From the ONS, latest figures, religion in GB from 2011-2018:
    image
    Yes and as more and more Muslims from North Africa, South Asia and the Middle East (notice a slight rise on that graph already in the number of Muslims in the UK) and more evangelical Christians from Africa in the UK arrive then as I said the overall decline of the religious in the UK in the last few decades could start to reverse.

    In summary, the less white the UK becomes in turn generally the more religious the UK will start to become again (albeit we did have a fair number of Polish Catholics pre Brexit coming to the UK)
    Your assertions are, as usual, not back by the data. In a generally increasingly secular society even those groups who are observantly religious have also demonstrated an overall trend towards diminishing levels of religious activity. There is no evidence at all of any change in the general trend towards lower religious belief or activity.

    Whether that is a good or bad thing is a matter of opinion, but the facts are the facts.
    The opposite, Christianity in the UK is smaller than it was but more fervent as the more liberal Church of England declines while evangelical Pentecostal and Baptist churches grow and the more rigid Roman Catholic church is boosted by immigration from Eastern Europe. As the chart shows Islam is also growing in the UK and younger Muslims in the UK are often more radical than their elders.

    More evangelical Christian immigrants from Africa and Muslim immigrants from Asia will only expand that trend, in a largely secular society the minority who are religious in the UK will be more fervently religious than they were 50 years ago even if more white Britons are atheist and agnostic than they were 50 years ago
    Back to the eroded mountain range metaphor. What you're seeing is the pious granite outcrops left over after whole mountainsides of mainstream religious limestone have crumbled and washed away into the valleys.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,088
    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    From the Guardian blog:

    “Rooty is a good man, he’s never engaged in racist language,” says Rafiq. “I found [his comments] hurtful. He was Gary’s flatmate. He was involved in social nights out during which I was called a Paki. He might not remember [the incidents of racism] but it shows how normal it was that even a good man like him doesn’t see it for what it is.”

    Does Root keep the England captaincy?

    One of my white friends always wonders why with so much Indian cricketing talent in England and Wales so few Indian players go professional and here we have the answer. I feel sorry for all of the Pakistani people who have forged this path.
    I heard a paper reviewer say how shocked they were that this sort of thing was going on in cricket. I'm not. Cricket has a dick-ish culture in it that can make it not a particularly pleasant environment to be.
    Indeed, cricket is "lad banter culture" the sport. Anyone who has played it at any serious amateur or professional level will know this. At uni I quit in my second year because it was obvious that the captain was pitting the Indians against the Pakistanis just to get a rise out of us, for the bants.
    How do you find the City now for this sort of thing?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,088
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The reports on YCCC are awful, but so is the reporting. We do not need to have Paki and Monkey etc bleeped out - lets hear it. Its not being used as an abuse term now, its being used to call out the racists. Lets hear it so that we can shame them.

    Naive. People have lost careers for using the n word, even when in context - eg to show how the word was used by someone else. That can now get you fired and cancelled

    How is anyone to know if and when this arbitrary rule will be extended to the P word and beyond? They can’t. So they are understandably super cautious

    I recall predicting many years ago that one day racist terms would be seen as much more toxic and offensive than swear words in the 1950s

    And so it is. Perhaps that is a good thing, but my inner libertarian still thinks “they are just words, however stupid and ugly”
    I don't see a binary distinction between words and actions. Words are the result of an action - the action of writing or speaking. And this action, the writing or speaking of words, can do real damage. It can do just as much damage as other types of actions, eg punching and slapping, sometimes more.
    Do you think someone should lose their job for just quoting someone else using the N word?
    Maybe. I'd have to know the circumstances. Also 'lose their job' would need clarifying. Eg fired vs feeling shamed out vs loss of freelance income, these are different.

    General point, though, is that I sometimes hear "it's only words" as if words exist in a separate milder dimension to actions, and I don't really view it like that myself.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,965
    edited November 2021
    Taz said:

    ping said:

    Gas prices back on the up

    Bloody Brexit !
    Interesting exercise in voter psychology to keep an eye on. My expectation is that to the extent the public views Brexit as a reasonably positive move and something to get behind, then lots of things that are actually triggered or made worse by Brexit will be blamed on other things. If as now the public remains split then one half will blame nothing on Brexit, the other half will blame everything. But if the public decides collectively that Brexit was a bad idea then the majority will start to see the hand of Brexit in everything that goes wrong.

    Given support for Brexit has really started to drop and may do more so if its reputation is damaged by association with Boris, I could see more and more bad things being "unfairly" but conveniently blamed on it. Same happened with the poll tax, same with Britain in the ERM, same with Britain getting involved in Iraq. Once a policy becomes unpopular by public consensus it also becomes a convenient scapegoat.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,636
    edited November 2021
    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    From the Guardian blog:

    “Rooty is a good man, he’s never engaged in racist language,” says Rafiq. “I found [his comments] hurtful. He was Gary’s flatmate. He was involved in social nights out during which I was called a Paki. He might not remember [the incidents of racism] but it shows how normal it was that even a good man like him doesn’t see it for what it is.”

    Does Root keep the England captaincy?

    One of my white friends always wonders why with so much Indian cricketing talent in England and Wales so few Indian players go professional and here we have the answer. I feel sorry for all of the Pakistani people who have forged this path.
    I heard a paper reviewer say how shocked they were that this sort of thing was going on in cricket. I'm not. Cricket has a dick-ish culture in it that can make it not a particularly pleasant environment to be.
    Indeed, cricket is "lad banter culture" the sport. Anyone who has played it at any serious amateur or professional level will know this. At uni I quit in my second year because it was obvious that the captain was pitting the Indians against the Pakistanis just to get a rise out of us, for the bants.
    "Lad banter culture" is surely common across a lot of sports.

    I played golf at uni and gave it up after a year. Loved the game, hated the laddish stuff. No racism, though, because, well...it wasn't exactly a diverse group.

    It might be different these days though.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The reports on YCCC are awful, but so is the reporting. We do not need to have Paki and Monkey etc bleeped out - lets hear it. Its not being used as an abuse term now, its being used to call out the racists. Lets hear it so that we can shame them.

    Naive. People have lost careers for using the n word, even when in context - eg to show how the word was used by someone else. That can now get you fired and cancelled

    How is anyone to know if and when this arbitrary rule will be extended to the P word and beyond? They can’t. So they are understandably super cautious

    I recall predicting many years ago that one day racist terms would be seen as much more toxic and offensive than swear words in the 1950s

    And so it is. Perhaps that is a good thing, but my inner libertarian still thinks “they are just words, however stupid and ugly”
    I don't see a binary distinction between words and actions. Words are the result of an action - the action of writing or speaking. And this action, the writing or speaking of words, can do real damage. It can do just as much damage as other types of actions, eg punching and slapping, sometimes more.
    Do you think someone should lose their job for just quoting someone else using the N word?
    There was an example I saw not long ago where a reporter was doorstepping a politician who had used it, and the reporter used it in asking them about it. I think it was the right call, I think when putting someone's feet to the fire the full force of what they said should not be hidden away behind a euphemism, even though we all know what it means. But the piece I saw it on took the opposite view, and was basically 'You cannot say that just because he said it'.

    I'd never do it myself despite thinking that is the right approach as I am too cowardly, even with less awful epithets (such as that is a thing), but it's on the same basis it should be reported, even if asterisked, in news reporting, as sometimes it's unclear how offended we are supposed to be because we don't know what was said as the stories won't tell us.
  • MP: What does the Fletcher report mean to you?
    YCCC Chairman: Nothing.
    MP: You don't know the report?
    YCCC Chairman: Not heard of it.
    MP: It was a report into racism in YCCC in 2014.
    YCC Chairman: I hadn't heard of it.


    That's fairly damning.
  • Cookie said:

    On another subject, another thing this shows is that local media isn't dead yet.
    My view - and this is blether rather than me knowing what I'm talking about - is that the MEN is more influential in GM than any of the national papers. I'm sure the same is true of the Echo on Merseyside, the Chronicle in the North East, the Yorkshire Post in Yorkshire, and so on.
    This makes me happy and slightly proud for reasons I can't quite place.

    And frequently have greater circulations (and better reporters and writers) than the nationals in their regions. For example, the Aberdeen Press & Journal and Dundee Courier combined have six times the circulation of the NatRag Nat Onal.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Has the BoE told the govt it is going to hike interest rates through the roof, and the govt has had another look at the cost of borrowing for all this stuff? And Rishi has teamed up with the BoE to undermine Johnson? I just fundamentally do not see what Johnson is up to. He dreamed of bridging the Irish sea, and now can't afford a piddling rail link Manchester-Leeds?

    He's the wonky shopping trolley, veering in which ever direction the last person pushed him.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    This is another terrible terrible terrible mistake by Johnson.

    Regardless of the cost, he relies on his new friends up north.

    He risks losing the south and the north. I'm beginning to think a repeat of the Mayday 1997 carnage is on the cards.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    Mr. Richard, that's true, but the fact money's found for southern infrastructure but Yorkshire can do without is still a very damaging story.

    Yes, and with rail supply creates its own demand. Probably many people choose the car because the rail services are shit.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sinn Fein VI at 37% in the Republic of Ireland: a record high.

    SF also leading VI in Northern Ireland. Irish politics in both north and south are undergoing dramatic change.

    Completely ignoring the fact the governing FF and FG combined are on 41% in the latest Irish poll still comfortably ahead of SF.

    Michael Martin has said he's open to a FF/SF coalition after the next election. He probably regrets not doing it after the last one.
    Franco’s tank commander completely ignoring facts = good

    Sane, rational human beings completely ignoring facts = bad
    “That said, at the moment, I think Sinn Féin’s policy platform on a range of issues would make it very difficult for us to coalesce with them.”
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ff-tds-would-not-exclude-sinn-féin-coalition-after-next-election-1.4478483
    And? All parties say things like that prior to coalition talks. Bog standard negotiation strategy. You never want to be a pushover.
    It's quite likely FF will be the junior partner in an SF led coalition in 2025.
    Highly unlikely as that would largely kill off FF.

    Most FF voters would go to FG in such a scenario, leaving FG and SF as by far the 2 largest parties with FG as the main party of the centre right and SF the main party of the left.

    FF doing a deal with SF would be as bad for FF as the LDs doing a deal with the Tories was for the LDs. The only benefit for FF is they would become effective kingmakers in Irish politics between FG and SF going forward but they would be a far smaller party than they were
    It is easy to dismiss the Civil War as a century ago but it is still a very raw feature in Irish politics. Look at the whole kerfuffle about remembering RIC policemen or the controversy over the Irish President not turning up to the anniversary of NI’s founding. In that regards, it is much easier for FF / SF voters and parties to cross over than with FG given FF came from anti-Treaty forces. Within 10-15 years, I’d expect FF and SF to be merged with SF trimming some of its more socially liberal attributes to get a deal done
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,254
    edited November 2021
    Heathener said:

    This is another terrible terrible terrible mistake by Johnson.

    Regardless of the cost, he relies on his new friends up north.

    He risks losing the south and the north. I'm beginning to think a repeat of the Mayday 1997 carnage is on the cards.

    I did originally think that the influx of northern MPs might lead to a realignment of the Tory party, at the lasting expense of Labour.

    But now it seems that Johnson is determined to dump these voters at the first opportunity. What happens to a Tory party that has pissed off both its previous core vote in London & the home counties /and/ it’s new voters in the north is anyone’s guess, but I don’t think it can be anything good.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    In the real world the vast majority of people in the North travel by car.

    This is especially so in the constituencies that the Conservatives have or could win.

    In the real world the vast majority of people in the North travel by car, because public transport is so crap that there's little alternative.
    In the real world, people only get the train to work in London because there is no car parking available.
    Ever tried driving into central London? thought not
    I have. It's obviously not an option for 99.9% of people who work there. But when people start to have the choice, well, the car has a habit of winning.
    Bollocks. I have a lovely Audi but the train wins for me for trips into town every single time. It’s faster and far easier.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,723
    edited November 2021
    MrEd said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sinn Fein VI at 37% in the Republic of Ireland: a record high.

    SF also leading VI in Northern Ireland. Irish politics in both north and south are undergoing dramatic change.

    Completely ignoring the fact the governing FF and FG combined are on 41% in the latest Irish poll still comfortably ahead of SF.

    Michael Martin has said he's open to a FF/SF coalition after the next election. He probably regrets not doing it after the last one.
    Franco’s tank commander completely ignoring facts = good

    Sane, rational human beings completely ignoring facts = bad
    “That said, at the moment, I think Sinn Féin’s policy platform on a range of issues would make it very difficult for us to coalesce with them.”
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ff-tds-would-not-exclude-sinn-féin-coalition-after-next-election-1.4478483
    And? All parties say things like that prior to coalition talks. Bog standard negotiation strategy. You never want to be a pushover.
    It's quite likely FF will be the junior partner in an SF led coalition in 2025.
    Highly unlikely as that would largely kill off FF.

    Most FF voters would go to FG in such a scenario, leaving FG and SF as by far the 2 largest parties with FG as the main party of the centre right and SF the main party of the left.

    FF doing a deal with SF would be as bad for FF as the LDs doing a deal with the Tories was for the LDs. The only benefit for FF is they would become effective kingmakers in Irish politics between FG and SF going forward but they would be a far smaller party than they were
    It is easy to dismiss the Civil War as a century ago but it is still a very raw feature in Irish politics. Look at the whole kerfuffle about remembering RIC policemen or the controversy over the Irish President not turning up to the anniversary of NI’s founding. In that regards, it is much easier for FF / SF voters and parties to cross over than with FG given FF came from anti-Treaty forces. Within 10-15 years, I’d expect FF and SF to be merged with SF trimming some of its more socially liberal attributes to get a deal done
    Most of the most leftwing and nationalist former voters of FF are already voting SF. Remember FF only got 22% at the last Irish election but FF got 41% as recently as 2007 under Ahern when SF were only on 6% compared to 24% for SF in 2020. FG has seen far less of a decline, it got 27% in 2007 and 20% in 2020.

    Most of the FF voters who remain are economically centre right and closer to FG than SF and also more socially conservative than SF, if they went it would be to FG not SF
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738

    Cookie said:

    On another subject, another thing this shows is that local media isn't dead yet.
    My view - and this is blether rather than me knowing what I'm talking about - is that the MEN is more influential in GM than any of the national papers. I'm sure the same is true of the Echo on Merseyside, the Chronicle in the North East, the Yorkshire Post in Yorkshire, and so on.
    This makes me happy and slightly proud for reasons I can't quite place.

    And frequently have greater circulations (and better reporters and writers) than the nationals in their regions. For example, the Aberdeen Press & Journal and Dundee Courier combined have six times the circulation of the NatRag Nat Onal.
    The only reason for the existence of the National is that the Glasgow Herald - itdself a major paper for its own area - screwed up by going all relentlessly Britnat, and had to do something to keep some of the customers it lost.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,254
    edited November 2021

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    In the real world the vast majority of people in the North travel by car.

    This is especially so in the constituencies that the Conservatives have or could win.

    In the real world the vast majority of people in the North travel by car, because public transport is so crap that there's little alternative.
    In the real world, people only get the train to work in London because there is no car parking available.
    Ever tried driving into central London? thought not
    I have. It's obviously not an option for 99.9% of people who work there. But when people start to have the choice, well, the car has a habit of winning.
    Bollocks. I have a lovely Audi but the train wins for me for trips into town every single time. It’s faster and far easier.
    I think by “choice” tlg might perhaps mean “the option to drive without queuing for hours in traffic because every other bugger has made the same choice” ?

    To which, sure: this is the promise of the car advert after all. To be able to drive freely wherever the will takes you. In reality as we all know, road space is inevitably limited & public transport is a far more efficient use of the avaialble space, especially if the cars can be removed first. There is something of a chicken & egg problem there of course...

    (Trains have the distinct advantage of not having to compete with cars for access to the same transport infrastructure.)
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,404
    MrEd said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sinn Fein VI at 37% in the Republic of Ireland: a record high.

    SF also leading VI in Northern Ireland. Irish politics in both north and south are undergoing dramatic change.

    Completely ignoring the fact the governing FF and FG combined are on 41% in the latest Irish poll still comfortably ahead of SF.

    Michael Martin has said he's open to a FF/SF coalition after the next election. He probably regrets not doing it after the last one.
    Franco’s tank commander completely ignoring facts = good

    Sane, rational human beings completely ignoring facts = bad
    “That said, at the moment, I think Sinn Féin’s policy platform on a range of issues would make it very difficult for us to coalesce with them.”
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ff-tds-would-not-exclude-sinn-féin-coalition-after-next-election-1.4478483
    And? All parties say things like that prior to coalition talks. Bog standard negotiation strategy. You never want to be a pushover.
    It's quite likely FF will be the junior partner in an SF led coalition in 2025.
    Highly unlikely as that would largely kill off FF.

    Most FF voters would go to FG in such a scenario, leaving FG and SF as by far the 2 largest parties with FG as the main party of the centre right and SF the main party of the left.

    FF doing a deal with SF would be as bad for FF as the LDs doing a deal with the Tories was for the LDs. The only benefit for FF is they would become effective kingmakers in Irish politics between FG and SF going forward but they would be a far smaller party than they were
    It is easy to dismiss the Civil War as a century ago but it is still a very raw feature in Irish politics. Look at the whole kerfuffle about remembering RIC policemen or the controversy over the Irish President not turning up to the anniversary of NI’s founding. In that regards, it is much easier for FF / SF voters and parties to cross over than with FG given FF came from anti-Treaty forces. Within 10-15 years, I’d expect FF and SF to be merged with SF trimming some of its more socially liberal attributes to get a deal done
    Quite right. In these matters, a century isn't really a long time ago; 'casual' chats round the fireplace, across the dining table and so on carry such matters onwards.
  • Leon said:

    A live stream of the chaos on the Belarus border


    https://twitter.com/dtsp17/status/1460549567120826368?s=21

    The Polish forces not taking any shit. I thought they’d buckle. Not gonna happen

    Which means two other possible outcomes. Lukashenko/Putin give up and send the migrants back to Syria, or so many of the migrants start dying in the wet and cold they disperse of their own accord

    It would be horribly karmic if Belarus ended up with a migrant problem.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,340
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Talking of standards debate, I see that Kwasi Kwarteng has given an apology - of sorts - to the Standards Commissioner.

    Perhaps that'll teach him to stop being Johnson's nodding dog in future.

    He didn't apologise at all, for all it included the word sorry. He pretended he had not meant what he said, without proferring an alternative explanation for what he said because he could not, blamed that others had 'interpreted' what he said that way and was sorry for the 'impression' that he had not maintained high standards.

    I'm sure you've read even more weaselly letters than his in your time, but it was still a shameful example of a non-apology and by implication suggesting everyone is a fool if they believe his words.

    So I doubt he'll have learned a thing.
    Yes, Kwarteng's letter to Stone is an absolute shocker - a load of disingenuous bullshit. It's a disgrace, and if I were Stone I'd reply and say 'apology not sincere and therefore not accepted'. Anybody who wants to learn how to write a non-apology apology can read it here:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1033600/sos-letter-kathryn-stone.pdf
  • I think I may vote Palpatine next time. He has an excellent sense of commitment to major infrastructure projects. Not to mention he's got a strong track record of long term planning.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,103
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The reports on YCCC are awful, but so is the reporting. We do not need to have Paki and Monkey etc bleeped out - lets hear it. Its not being used as an abuse term now, its being used to call out the racists. Lets hear it so that we can shame them.

    Naive. People have lost careers for using the n word, even when in context - eg to show how the word was used by someone else. That can now get you fired and cancelled

    How is anyone to know if and when this arbitrary rule will be extended to the P word and beyond? They can’t. So they are understandably super cautious

    I recall predicting many years ago that one day racist terms would be seen as much more toxic and offensive than swear words in the 1950s

    And so it is. Perhaps that is a good thing, but my inner libertarian still thinks “they are just words, however stupid and ugly”
    I don't see a binary distinction between words and actions. Words are the result of an action - the action of writing or speaking. And this action, the writing or speaking of words, can do real damage. It can do just as much damage as other types of actions, eg punching and slapping, sometimes more.
    Do you think someone should lose their job for just quoting someone else using the N word?
    Maybe. I'd have to know the circumstances. Also 'lose their job' would need clarifying. Eg fired vs feeling shamed out vs loss of freelance income, these are different.

    General point, though, is that I sometimes hear "it's only words" as if words exist in a separate milder dimension to actions, and I don't really view it like that myself.
    You're so tediously myopic. Do you never do any research? Explore? Find out stuff? Or is it just easier to sit in a contented little bien pensant bubble in your leafy Belsize Park pub.

    I'm bored of educating you, and I shall stop interacting with you shortly. But there are countless examples of people being sacked for using the N word

    Netflix executive fired

    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/jonathan-friedland-exits-netflix-1122675/

    Teacher suspended in Georgia

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/14/georgia-teacher-n-word-classroom

    One of my favourites, a professor replaced for using a Chinese word that SOUNDS like the N word

    "In a controversial decision, the University of Southern California replaced a professor of business communication with another instructor in one of his classes for saying a Chinese word that sounds like an English slur."

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/09/08/professor-suspended-saying-chinese-word-sounds-english-slur

    UK council worker sacked (eventually reinstated)

    https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/news/articles/council-worker-racial-slur-during-training-unfairly-dismissed-tribunal-rules#gref

    Black school officer fired

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/black-school-resource-officer-fired-tampa-police-using-n-word-n1259650


    Sports coach fired

    https://www.revolt.tv/2021/5/11/22430786/kansas-coach-fired-n-word-black-student

    College professor fired

    https://www.pennlive.com/crime/2020/10/pa-college-professor-fired-for-using-n-word-3-times-in-online-class.html


    There's hundreds. That's 2 minutes Googling. Which you are apparently unable to do
  • eekeek Posts: 28,304
    Phil said:

    Heathener said:

    This is another terrible terrible terrible mistake by Johnson.

    Regardless of the cost, he relies on his new friends up north.

    He risks losing the south and the north. I'm beginning to think a repeat of the Mayday 1997 carnage is on the cards.

    I did originally think that the influx of northern MPs might lead to a realignment of the Tory party, at the lasting expense of Labour.

    But now it seems that Johnson is determined to dump these voters at the first opportunity. What happens to a Tory party that has pissed off both its previous core vote in London & the home counties /and/ it’s new voters in the north is anyone’s guess, but I don’t think it can be anything good.
    And worse the opposition has 2 separate parties both of whom can target different issues in the respective areas.

    The Lib Dems will make inroads into the Tory's southern safe seats via Nimbyism and other local factors, Labour will recover some of their northern seats and the Tories will have little choice but to move further right.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738

    I think I may vote Palpatine next time. He has an excellent sense of commitment to major infrastructure projects. Not to mention he's got a strong track record of long term planning.

    I think he'd be even more efficient than Mr Johnson - wouldn't bother with all this hooray henry man of the people scarecrow thing to get elected.

    BTW I enjoyed the piece on caligae the other day!
  • The Indie has it in for the PM's Dad; like son, like father?
    'Two women — including Tory MP Caroline Nokes — have accused Boris Johnson’s father Stanley of inappropriately touching them.

    Ms Nokes, who is the chair of the parliamentary women and equalities committee, said the 81-year-old smacked her “on the backside about as hard as he could” during a party conference in 2003.

    The elder Mr Johnson declined to comment about her allegation made to Sky News, other than to say he has “no recollection of Caroline Nokes at all”.'

    Stanley’s response has very much a feel(!) of ‘I’ve slapped so many arses, how am I supposed to remember this filly?’.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738

    The Indie has it in for the PM's Dad; like son, like father?
    'Two women — including Tory MP Caroline Nokes — have accused Boris Johnson’s father Stanley of inappropriately touching them.

    Ms Nokes, who is the chair of the parliamentary women and equalities committee, said the 81-year-old smacked her “on the backside about as hard as he could” during a party conference in 2003.

    The elder Mr Johnson declined to comment about her allegation made to Sky News, other than to say he has “no recollection of Caroline Nokes at all”.'

    Stanley’s response has very much a feel(!) of ‘I’ve slapped so many arses, how am I supposed to remember this filly?’.
    He was looking at the wrong end, so to speak, to be able to recognise her from her photo in the papers.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,103

    Mr. Leon, by that metric Quentin Tarantino is screwed.

    I do wonder about Pulp Fiction. Would it get made now? Not in that form, and the scene where Tarantino drops Nbombs constantly would surely be excised
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    I think I may vote Palpatine next time. He has an excellent sense of commitment to major infrastructure projects. Not to mention he's got a strong track record of long term planning.

    Given the history of war and mismanagement before and after his reign in the Star Wars canon, if he could just dial down the evil a notch or two he'd unquestionably be the greatest ruler in galactic history. His administrative capabilities were more phenomenal than his force powers.
  • Mr. Carnyx, cheers. It's ironic that one of the best known emperors isn't even known by his actual name.

    The Conservatives need to rediscover their killer instinct and defenestrate the jester before he causes even more lasting damage to them.

    Mr. Leon, quite. And his whiteness might get Tarantino cancelled.

    This censorious atmosphere is poison for healthy discourse and quality media.
  • Phil said:

    Heathener said:

    This is another terrible terrible terrible mistake by Johnson.

    Regardless of the cost, he relies on his new friends up north.

    He risks losing the south and the north. I'm beginning to think a repeat of the Mayday 1997 carnage is on the cards.

    I did originally think that the influx of northern MPs might lead to a realignment of the Tory party, at the lasting expense of Labour.

    But now it seems that Johnson is determined to dump these voters at the first opportunity. What happens to a Tory party that has pissed off both its previous core vote in London & the home counties /and/ it’s new voters in the north is anyone’s guess, but I don’t think it can be anything good.
    And this is all before rampant inflation fully detonates.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,958
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Talking of standards debate, I see that Kwasi Kwarteng has given an apology - of sorts - to the Standards Commissioner.

    Perhaps that'll teach him to stop being Johnson's nodding dog in future.

    He didn't apologise at all, for all it included the word sorry. He pretended he had not meant what he said, without proferring an alternative explanation for what he said because he could not, blamed that others had 'interpreted' what he said that way and was sorry for the 'impression' that he had not maintained high standards.

    I'm sure you've read even more weaselly letters than his in your time, but it was still a shameful example of a non-apology and by implication suggesting everyone is a fool if they believe his words.

    So I doubt he'll have learned a thing.
    I regret my remarks and would like to apologise for them up to - but, to be clear, not including - the point at which doing so would imply any obligation to resign.
    https://twitter.com/thhamilton/status/1460314679293665283
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    Mr. Carnyx, cheers. It's ironic that one of the best known emperors isn't even known by his actual name.
    .

    Given what his name actually was I think that was pretty inevitable.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,103


    Leon said:

    A live stream of the chaos on the Belarus border


    https://twitter.com/dtsp17/status/1460549567120826368?s=21

    The Polish forces not taking any shit. I thought they’d buckle. Not gonna happen

    Which means two other possible outcomes. Lukashenko/Putin give up and send the migrants back to Syria, or so many of the migrants start dying in the wet and cold they disperse of their own accord

    It would be horribly karmic if Belarus ended up with a migrant problem.
    One theory floating around is that the Belarussian forces are trying to get the migrants to storm the border, so that the Polish troops overreact, or panic, and open fire, thereby slaughtering dozens

    Then the moral outrage would be so great the Poles would have to open the frontier and many thousands would flood across, destabilising Europe, esp the East

    Lukashenko really is a piece of work
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,716
    Leon said:

    Mr. Leon, by that metric Quentin Tarantino is screwed.

    I do wonder about Pulp Fiction. Would it get made now? Not in that form, and the scene where Tarantino drops Nbombs constantly would surely be excised
    The Wire also comes to mind. A bunch of white writers too and a white director and show runner.
  • Oh....



    Harriet Sergeant
    @HarrietSergeant
    ·
    11m
    Immigration officials spot Swealmeen is a Jordanian economic migrant and not a Syrian refugee as he claims. Then what happens? Nothing. He still stays in this country. Our asylum system is in free fall.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,404
    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sinn Fein VI at 37% in the Republic of Ireland: a record high.

    SF also leading VI in Northern Ireland. Irish politics in both north and south are undergoing dramatic change.

    Completely ignoring the fact the governing FF and FG combined are on 41% in the latest Irish poll still comfortably ahead of SF.

    Michael Martin has said he's open to a FF/SF coalition after the next election. He probably regrets not doing it after the last one.
    Franco’s tank commander completely ignoring facts = good

    Sane, rational human beings completely ignoring facts = bad
    “That said, at the moment, I think Sinn Féin’s policy platform on a range of issues would make it very difficult for us to coalesce with them.”
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ff-tds-would-not-exclude-sinn-féin-coalition-after-next-election-1.4478483
    And? All parties say things like that prior to coalition talks. Bog standard negotiation strategy. You never want to be a pushover.
    It's quite likely FF will be the junior partner in an SF led coalition in 2025.
    Highly unlikely as that would largely kill off FF.

    Most FF voters would go to FG in such a scenario, leaving FG and SF as by far the 2 largest parties with FG as the main party of the centre right and SF the main party of the left.

    FF doing a deal with SF would be as bad for FF as the LDs doing a deal with the Tories was for the LDs. The only benefit for FF is they would become effective kingmakers in Irish politics between FG and SF going forward but they would be a far smaller party than they were
    It is easy to dismiss the Civil War as a century ago but it is still a very raw feature in Irish politics. Look at the whole kerfuffle about remembering RIC policemen or the controversy over the Irish President not turning up to the anniversary of NI’s founding. In that regards, it is much easier for FF / SF voters and parties to cross over than with FG given FF came from anti-Treaty forces. Within 10-15 years, I’d expect FF and SF to be merged with SF trimming some of its more socially liberal attributes to get a deal done
    Most of the most leftwing and nationalist former voters of FF are already voting SF. Remember FF only got 22% at the last Irish election but FF got 41% as recently as 2007 under Ahern when SF were only on 6% compared to 24% for SF in 2020. FG has seen far less of a decline, it got 27% in 2007 and 20% in 2020.

    Most of the FF voters who remain are economically centre right and closer to FG than SF and also more socially conservative than SF, if they went it would be to FG not SF
    You may be right. FF left rather in the wilderness like the Liberals were in the 40's.That's not comparing the economic positions, but, crudely, the electoral ones.

    Although, since the Irish Republic has a considerably more democratic and representative system than we do maybe they won't be as badly squeezed.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,723
    edited November 2021
    eek said:

    Phil said:

    Heathener said:

    This is another terrible terrible terrible mistake by Johnson.

    Regardless of the cost, he relies on his new friends up north.

    He risks losing the south and the north. I'm beginning to think a repeat of the Mayday 1997 carnage is on the cards.

    I did originally think that the influx of northern MPs might lead to a realignment of the Tory party, at the lasting expense of Labour.

    But now it seems that Johnson is determined to dump these voters at the first opportunity. What happens to a Tory party that has pissed off both its previous core vote in London & the home counties /and/ it’s new voters in the north is anyone’s guess, but I don’t think it can be anything good.
    And worse the opposition has 2 separate parties both of whom can target different issues in the respective areas.

    The Lib Dems will make inroads into the Tory's southern safe seats via Nimbyism and other local factors, Labour will recover some of their northern seats and the Tories will have little choice but to move further right.
    That is possible. If Starmer becomes PM in 2023/24 in a hung parliament with some gains from the Tories in the Redwall and London, a few LD gains from the Tories in Remain and NIMBY areas of the South and some SNP gains from the Tories in Scotland then the Tories will move right in opposition.

    It is not hard to see Patel or JRM becoming Tory Leader of the Opposition in a few years in a purer more rightwing Tory party in opposition much as Labour moved left in opposition to Ed Miliband and then Corbyn after losing power in 2010
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,103
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Mr. Leon, by that metric Quentin Tarantino is screwed.

    I do wonder about Pulp Fiction. Would it get made now? Not in that form, and the scene where Tarantino drops Nbombs constantly would surely be excised
    The Wire also comes to mind. A bunch of white writers too and a white director and show runner.
    One of the latest evolutions of this debate is that BLACK people are now getting fired for using the word - see below. And there's more online.

    It is a kind of hysteria; it is Victorian prudery applied to race
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,464

    I think I may vote Palpatine next time. He has an excellent sense of commitment to major infrastructure projects. Not to mention he's got a strong track record of long term planning.

    He is the Law and Order option too!

    And the interplanetary shuttles always run on time.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    The BBC are apologising to viewers who may be offended by the language being used - by an Asian man telling a parliamentary committee that he was called the P word.

    I am offended by the fact that he was on the receiving end of racism - not by the fact that he is calling it out in public.

    Well quite, it's just absurd. If you are watching a news report about a discussion of racism then offensive terms and actions are going to come up, it's inevitable and, for once, the appropriate place for it to come up.
  • Mr. Rabbit, not to mention he can easily hit energy policy targets due to UNLIMITED POWER!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,053

    Oh....



    Harriet Sergeant
    @HarrietSergeant
    ·
    11m
    Immigration officials spot Swealmeen is a Jordanian economic migrant and not a Syrian refugee as he claims. Then what happens? Nothing. He still stays in this country. Our asylum system is in free fall.

    I thought the chap was now dead, having blown himself up?

    What am I missing?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,103
    Migrants shouting

    "Fuck Europe!", "Allahu Akbar" and then "Let us in!"

    I see a tiny problem here


    https://twitter.com/FELASTORY/status/1460584656215101445?s=20
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,157
    SNP MP on politics live keeps saying whatabboutery.

    That word should be banned.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,089
    Colleague's son has just lifted 200 Kg @ 14 yrs old / 66 Kg bodyweight. Smashing it.
  • Mr. Leon, nonsense, I'm sure there are no examples of that sort of thing leading to any prob-

    Oh.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,950
    QAnon supporters gather in downtown Dallas expecting JFK Jr. to reappear
    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2021/11/02/qanon-supporters-gather-in-downtown-dallas-expecting-jfk-jr-to-reappear/
    ...JFK Jr. has been a popular figure among QAnon conspiracy theorists. In 2019, some members believed he would return on July 4 as Trump’s vice president, Forbes reported. Another theory posits that JFK Jr. is “Q,” the group’s anonymous leader, according to Forbes.

    After a few hours of standing on the Grassy Knoll, waving at passing cars and reciting the pledge of allegiance, the crowd retreated from heavy rains. Some said they expected a revelation Tuesday night at the Rolling Stones concert in Dallas. Others vowed to return at midnight to the Grassy Knoll, where they believe JFK Jr. will appear.

    Micki Larson-Olson, who wore a QAnon-themed Captain America costume Tuesday, said she not only believes JFK Jr. is alive — she also believes that his father was never assassinated and that the 104-year-old former president will appear to help usher in a Trump-JFK Jr. administration.

    How will she react when the former president and his dead son do not show up?

    “We’ll figure that something happened in the plan that made it not safe to do it,” she said. “If it doesn’t go down how I believe it will, that’s OK. We’ll figure it just wasn’t the right time.”...
  • Leon said:


    Leon said:

    A live stream of the chaos on the Belarus border


    https://twitter.com/dtsp17/status/1460549567120826368?s=21

    The Polish forces not taking any shit. I thought they’d buckle. Not gonna happen

    Which means two other possible outcomes. Lukashenko/Putin give up and send the migrants back to Syria, or so many of the migrants start dying in the wet and cold they disperse of their own accord

    It would be horribly karmic if Belarus ended up with a migrant problem.
    One theory floating around is that the Belarussian forces are trying to get the migrants to storm the border, so that the Polish troops overreact, or panic, and open fire, thereby slaughtering dozens

    Then the moral outrage would be so great the Poles would have to open the frontier and many thousands would flood across, destabilising Europe, esp the East

    Lukashenko really is a piece of work
    Sooner rather than later he will fall foul of Putin and then he's done.
  • 2019 wallers are getting pissed off...


    Mark Higgie
    @MarkHiggie1
    ·
    4h
    Matthew Goodwin argues it’s not sleaze which will undo Boris Johnson but a more general disenchantment with him. In polling which should terrify the Tories, only a little over half their 2019 voters would vote again for the party at an election tomorrow.
  • Why is the name of the law firm that carried out the Rafiq investigation a secret? It must be public knowledge, after all Roger Hutton used to work for them, but they are being referred to as the International Law Firm.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,606
    edited November 2021
    Curious to see a lot of support for Palpatine upthread. I suspect many Home Counties Coruscentian Tories will never accept someone with such a strong regional Naboovian accent and who didn't go to the right academy. For others he will simply be not right wing enough.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,723
    Leon said:


    Leon said:

    A live stream of the chaos on the Belarus border


    https://twitter.com/dtsp17/status/1460549567120826368?s=21

    The Polish forces not taking any shit. I thought they’d buckle. Not gonna happen

    Which means two other possible outcomes. Lukashenko/Putin give up and send the migrants back to Syria, or so many of the migrants start dying in the wet and cold they disperse of their own accord

    It would be horribly karmic if Belarus ended up with a migrant problem.
    One theory floating around is that the Belarussian forces are trying to get the migrants to storm the border, so that the Polish troops overreact, or panic, and open fire, thereby slaughtering dozens

    Then the moral outrage would be so great the Poles would have to open the frontier and many thousands would flood across, destabilising Europe, esp the East

    Lukashenko really is a piece of work
    Poland will not open the border regardless, its government and President are from the hard right Law and Justice party and its troops have shown restraint so far while holding the line
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,281
    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT because I took some time to go and find the data:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    King Cole, the bit after the Western Empire falls and before the Norman Conquest (especially pre-Alfred) is not the most popular in history for the general public.

    What annoys me is every single damned documentary or drama (well, the vast majority) are fixated retelling stories of Henry VIII and Elizabeth II when (even just looking at England) there are so many more interesting and neglected events and characters to consider.

    "The Vikings" did rather well from depicting the period, and the spin off "Vikings: Valhalla" covering the later period before the Norman conquest looks promising.

    The period that seems to be lacking is the early post Roman period. In a generation or two, we abandoned roads, towns and the trappings of urban life, turning back to subsistence farming and more egalitarian social structures.
    Perhaps we can find out about the latter in person, second time around? ;)
    The Dark Ages were only dark in the sense of the abandonment of Christianity, and also literacy. It happened between 409 and 450 or so, so a couple of generations. There seems surprisingly little evidence of resistance to going back to a simpler more sustainable communitarian lifestyle once the Romans stopped enforcing the alternative.
    Yes, it was a joke.

    Abandoning Christianity is known as progress ;)
    Abandoning Christianity will not lead to secular, highly educated atheists dominating, indeed atheists globally have a lower birthrate than the religious. If Christianity declines it will be Islam that largely fills the gap, especially in Europe
    I'm not sure that's true: the fastest growing portion of the US population is the ungodly.

    But it is interesting: in religious belief, as in so many areas, we are seeing real bifurcation and the hardening of extremes. There are more atheists than ever before, and also more religious fundamentalists. A body like the Church of England seems rather outdated.
    Globally it very much is true. In 2105 33% of global births were to Christians, 31% to Muslims and 10% to the religiously unaffiliated (including atheists and agnostics).

    By 2060 on current trends 36% of global births will be to Muslims, 35% to Christians and just 9% to the religiously unaffiliated

    https://www.pewforum.org/2017/04/05/the-changing-global-religious-landscape/.

    I do agree on your second paragraph, the fastest growth in religion globally is amongst evangelical Christians and Sunni Islam.

    The relatively liberal Church of England suits the largely secular UK but even there is in decline, the fastest growth in the Anglican church globally is in Africa where even the Anglican church is more evangelical, in the more liberal Anglican wing in the UK, Canada, the US, Australia and New Zealand there is decline. Although there is an evangelical wing of the Church of England it is smaller than the liberal wing now with a handful of Anglo Catholics too
    But @HYUFD - in the 1960s, atheism was much less common in the UK than it is today. Therefore almost everyone was born to religious parents.

    And yet the proportion of atheists has continued to rise.

    That is not entirely true, there were a fair number of atheists and agnostics in the UK in the 1960s. However churchgoing has declined significantly.

    However more significant still is the decline in the UK birthrate, now below replacement level and that means that the agnostic majority currently in the UK could actually decline percentage wise by 2050 as evangelical Christians and Muslims both already in the population and those who arrive as immigrants have significantly more children per head.

    Indeed the less white the UK becomes generally the more religious it will be (with the exception of Orientals)
    Will take quite a while.

    From the ONS, latest figures, religion in GB from 2011-2018:
    image
    Yes and as more and more Muslims from North Africa, South Asia and the Middle East (notice a slight rise on that graph already in the number of Muslims in the UK) and more evangelical Christians from Africa in the UK arrive then as I said the overall decline of the religious in the UK in the last few decades could start to reverse.

    In summary, the less white the UK becomes in turn generally the more religious the UK will start to become again (albeit we did have a fair number of Polish Catholics pre Brexit coming to the UK)
    Your assertions are, as usual, not back by the data. In a generally increasingly secular society even those groups who are observantly religious have also demonstrated an overall trend towards diminishing levels of religious activity. There is no evidence at all of any change in the general trend towards lower religious belief or activity.

    Whether that is a good or bad thing is a matter of opinion, but the facts are the facts.
    The opposite, Christianity in the UK is smaller than it was but more fervent as the more liberal Church of England declines while evangelical Pentecostal and Baptist churches grow and the more rigid Roman Catholic church is boosted by immigration from Eastern Europe. As the chart shows Islam is also growing in the UK and younger Muslims in the UK are often more radical than their elders.

    More evangelical Christian immigrants from Africa and Muslim immigrants from Asia will only expand that trend, in a largely secular society the minority who are religious in the UK will be more fervently religious than they were 50 years ago even if more white Britons are atheist and agnostic than they were 50 years ago
    Back to the eroded mountain range metaphor. What you're seeing is the pious granite outcrops left over after whole mountainsides of mainstream religious limestone have crumbled and washed away into the valleys.
    In principle this could be a bit like the growth of Delta Covid earlier in the year. The prevalence of Delta increased rapidly even as overall Covid cases declined, but then overall Covid cases increased again once Delta was dominant.

    It's not impossible. Religious revivals have happened before. And secular ideas are having a rough time of it, even while they produce successful outcomes like Covid vaccines.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,950

    Why is the name of the law firm that carried out the Rafiq investigation a secret? It must be public knowledge, after all Roger Hutton used to work for them, but they are being referred to as the International Law Firm.

    Is it ?
    A quick Google throws it up:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/azeem-rafiq-yorkshire-julian-knight-gary-ballance-sajid-javid-b1952287.html
    ...Independent law firm Squire Patton Boggs is hired by Yorkshire to lead an investigation and review into the racism experienced by Rafiq...
  • Leon said:


    Leon said:

    A live stream of the chaos on the Belarus border


    https://twitter.com/dtsp17/status/1460549567120826368?s=21

    The Polish forces not taking any shit. I thought they’d buckle. Not gonna happen

    Which means two other possible outcomes. Lukashenko/Putin give up and send the migrants back to Syria, or so many of the migrants start dying in the wet and cold they disperse of their own accord

    It would be horribly karmic if Belarus ended up with a migrant problem.
    One theory floating around is that the Belarussian forces are trying to get the migrants to storm the border, so that the Polish troops overreact, or panic, and open fire, thereby slaughtering dozens

    Then the moral outrage would be so great the Poles would have to open the frontier and many thousands would flood across, destabilising Europe, esp the East

    Lukashenko really is a piece of work
    Sooner rather than later he will fall foul of Putin and then he's done.
    There were rumours he had already pissed off Putin. For example, relaxing visa requirements for westerners when he is supposed to be in a sort of Schengen with Russia. He then let the opposition get out of hand at the recent elections. I presume he had Russian support to put the opposition down. This is probably what he has to do in return. I can't imagine he thought it up on his own.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,464
    Jonathan said:

    Curious to see a lot of support for Palpatine upthread. I suspect many Home Counties Coruscentian Tories will never accept someone with such a strong regional Naboovian accent and who didn't go to the right academy. For others he will simply be not right wing enough.

    Maybe. Maybe not. It depends as always what the choice is? Keeping the Empires lamps on or chaos under the Jedi.

    It sounds like near perfect government under Palpatine, especially long term planning and delivering big infrastructure projects, so you have to wonder why the films told the story from perspective of the villains, trying to take everything back to days of liaises faire mystical rulers.

    Liberal hippy Hollywood pushing its own agenda.
  • Mr. Jonathan, hey, Palpatine's a very open-minded fellow. Just look how he made Thrawn a grand admiral.
  • Nigelb said:

    Why is the name of the law firm that carried out the Rafiq investigation a secret? It must be public knowledge, after all Roger Hutton used to work for them, but they are being referred to as the International Law Firm.

    Is it ?
    A quick Google throws it up:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/azeem-rafiq-yorkshire-julian-knight-gary-ballance-sajid-javid-b1952287.html
    ...Independent law firm Squire Patton Boggs is hired by Yorkshire to lead an investigation and review into the racism experienced by Rafiq...
    So why is the Commons Committee referring to it as The International Law Firm?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Pulpstar said:

    Colleague's son has just lifted 200 Kg @ 14 yrs old / 66 Kg bodyweight. Smashing it.

    Do you even lift?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,606

    Mr. Jonathan, hey, Palpatine's a very open-minded fellow. Just look how he made Thrawn a grand admiral.

    A darling of the blue rinse brigade.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Jonathan said:

    Curious to see a lot of support for Palpatine upthread. I suspect many Home Counties Coruscentian Tories will never accept someone with such a strong regional Naboovian accent and who didn't go to the right academy. For others he will simply be not right wing enough.

    Maybe. Maybe not. It depends as always what the choice is? Keeping the Empires lamps on or chaos under the Jedi.

    It sounds like near perfect government under Palpatine, especially long term planning and delivering big infrastructure projects, so you have to wonder why the films told the story from perspective of the villains, trying to take everything back to days of liaises faire mystical rulers.

    Liberal hippy Hollywood pushing its own agenda.
    Say what you want about Palpatine but he did push through some sorely needed radical constitutional reform.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,278
    Leon said:

    A live stream of the chaos on the Belarus border


    https://twitter.com/dtsp17/status/1460549567120826368?s=21

    The Polish forces not taking any shit. I thought they’d buckle. Not gonna happen

    Which means two other possible outcomes. Lukashenko/Putin give up and send the migrants back to Syria, or so many of the migrants start dying in the wet and cold they disperse of their own accord

    If the Poles give in the EU is finished , so will not happen. They need to blockade Belarus and tell Putin to stick his gas up his own pipe. Wishy washy woke stuff does not work with these type of people, a good kick in the bollox and a couple of black eyes are required.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,278
    Roger said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/16/stanley-johnson-accused-of-inappropriately-touching-tory-mp

    The prime minister’s father, Stanley Johnson, has been accused of inappropriately touching a former cabinet minister as well as a senior political journalist.

    Not impressed. For sure, report the story - and it's very much of interest to hear what Tory Party conferences used to be like (I hope they aren't like that now) - but saying "PM's dad..." is pretty disgraceful. It doesn't make the story any more significant.

    Exactly! Where's Guido's scoop about the Shadow Home Secretary writing too many letters to the HoC authorities about Tory sleaze? I've scoured the papers and can't find it anywhere
    Sounds like the apple did not fall far from the tree
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,773
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    Phil said:

    Heathener said:

    This is another terrible terrible terrible mistake by Johnson.

    Regardless of the cost, he relies on his new friends up north.

    He risks losing the south and the north. I'm beginning to think a repeat of the Mayday 1997 carnage is on the cards.

    I did originally think that the influx of northern MPs might lead to a realignment of the Tory party, at the lasting expense of Labour.

    But now it seems that Johnson is determined to dump these voters at the first opportunity. What happens to a Tory party that has pissed off both its previous core vote in London & the home counties /and/ it’s new voters in the north is anyone’s guess, but I don’t think it can be anything good.
    And worse the opposition has 2 separate parties both of whom can target different issues in the respective areas.

    The Lib Dems will make inroads into the Tory's southern safe seats via Nimbyism and other local factors, Labour will recover some of their northern seats and the Tories will have little choice but to move further right.
    That is possible. If Starmer becomes PM in 2023/24 in a hung parliament with some gains from the Tories in the Redwall and London, a few LD gains from the Tories in Remain and NIMBY areas of the South and some SNP gains from the Tories in Scotland then the Tories will move right in opposition.

    It is not hard to see Patel or JRM becoming Tory Leader of the Opposition in a few years in a purer more rightwing Tory party in opposition much as Labour moved left in opposition to Ed Miliband and then Corbyn after losing power in 2010
    I don't know if that is correct (none of us do), but it is a reasonable analysis. If it happens will you still support the party HYUFD?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,606
    Jabba the Hutt, ruling the outer-rim Holyrood, is an invaluable ally to Palpatine in his ongoing war against the Jedi.
  • Nigelb said:

    QAnon supporters gather in downtown Dallas expecting JFK Jr. to reappear
    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2021/11/02/qanon-supporters-gather-in-downtown-dallas-expecting-jfk-jr-to-reappear/
    ...JFK Jr. has been a popular figure among QAnon conspiracy theorists. In 2019, some members believed he would return on July 4 as Trump’s vice president, Forbes reported. Another theory posits that JFK Jr. is “Q,” the group’s anonymous leader, according to Forbes.

    After a few hours of standing on the Grassy Knoll, waving at passing cars and reciting the pledge of allegiance, the crowd retreated from heavy rains. Some said they expected a revelation Tuesday night at the Rolling Stones concert in Dallas. Others vowed to return at midnight to the Grassy Knoll, where they believe JFK Jr. will appear.

    Micki Larson-Olson, who wore a QAnon-themed Captain America costume Tuesday, said she not only believes JFK Jr. is alive — she also believes that his father was never assassinated and that the 104-year-old former president will appear to help usher in a Trump-JFK Jr. administration.

    How will she react when the former president and his dead son do not show up?

    “We’ll figure that something happened in the plan that made it not safe to do it,” she said. “If it doesn’t go down how I believe it will, that’s OK. We’ll figure it just wasn’t the right time.”...

    Ok, it's mad but is there any reason they believe that the son of a liberal former President would want to support Trump if he were alive?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,773
    On first sight I thought those newspapers in the article were the infamous LD newspapers.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,157
    Ian Dale on Politics Live says that members of staff at Sky were livid that they were cutting the sound on the Rafiq testimony today. Apparently Sky played it unfiltered after they had complaints from their staff.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    Mr. Leon, by that metric Quentin Tarantino is screwed.

    I do wonder about Pulp Fiction. Would it get made now? Not in that form, and the scene where Tarantino drops Nbombs constantly would surely be excised
    I think he says it twice, to be fair, and Samuel Jackson addresses
    Ving Rhames as "n*gro."

    There's scenes in True Romance and hateful 8 which try to exploit the repetition of n*gger for comic effect, and fail dreadfully.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,773

    Nigelb said:

    QAnon supporters gather in downtown Dallas expecting JFK Jr. to reappear
    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2021/11/02/qanon-supporters-gather-in-downtown-dallas-expecting-jfk-jr-to-reappear/
    ...JFK Jr. has been a popular figure among QAnon conspiracy theorists. In 2019, some members believed he would return on July 4 as Trump’s vice president, Forbes reported. Another theory posits that JFK Jr. is “Q,” the group’s anonymous leader, according to Forbes.

    After a few hours of standing on the Grassy Knoll, waving at passing cars and reciting the pledge of allegiance, the crowd retreated from heavy rains. Some said they expected a revelation Tuesday night at the Rolling Stones concert in Dallas. Others vowed to return at midnight to the Grassy Knoll, where they believe JFK Jr. will appear.

    Micki Larson-Olson, who wore a QAnon-themed Captain America costume Tuesday, said she not only believes JFK Jr. is alive — she also believes that his father was never assassinated and that the 104-year-old former president will appear to help usher in a Trump-JFK Jr. administration.

    How will she react when the former president and his dead son do not show up?

    “We’ll figure that something happened in the plan that made it not safe to do it,” she said. “If it doesn’t go down how I believe it will, that’s OK. We’ll figure it just wasn’t the right time.”...

    Ok, it's mad but is there any reason they believe that the son of a liberal former President would want to support Trump if he were alive?
    What is the point of asking a QAon supporter a rational question?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,487

    I'm glad I stopped playing cricket aged 14.

    But went on to support a racist club for many years after?
    You supported a party with an anti-Semitic leader. In fact, you only grew disillusioned with the party once the anti-Semite was replaced with someone who was not ...
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,187
    kle4 said:

    The BBC are apologising to viewers who may be offended by the language being used - by an Asian man telling a parliamentary committee that he was called the P word.

    I am offended by the fact that he was on the receiving end of racism - not by the fact that he is calling it out in public.

    Well quite, it's just absurd. If you are watching a news report about a discussion of racism then offensive terms and actions are going to come up, it's inevitable and, for once, the appropriate place for it to come up.
    Depends though doesn't it. These are taboo words. Even though "fuck" is only mildly taboo these days, I wouldn't be surprised if the BBC still apologised if someone used the word "fuck" in a news report - especially before the watershed, even if the news report was about people using swear words.

    Has someone got a link to the apology? Just curious whether it really is absurd.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,053
    edited November 2021
    Roger said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/16/stanley-johnson-accused-of-inappropriately-touching-tory-mp

    The prime minister’s father, Stanley Johnson, has been accused of inappropriately touching a former cabinet minister as well as a senior political journalist.

    Not impressed. For sure, report the story - and it's very much of interest to hear what Tory Party conferences used to be like (I hope they aren't like that now) - but saying "PM's dad..." is pretty disgraceful. It doesn't make the story any more significant.

    Exactly! Where's Guido's scoop about the Shadow Home Secretary writing too many letters to the HoC authorities about Tory sleaze? I've scoured the papers and can't find it anywhere
    Missed that one :wink:

    The current one seems to be about David Lammy earning £125k £153k on the side.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,464
    DougSeal said:

    Jonathan said:

    Curious to see a lot of support for Palpatine upthread. I suspect many Home Counties Coruscentian Tories will never accept someone with such a strong regional Naboovian accent and who didn't go to the right academy. For others he will simply be not right wing enough.

    Maybe. Maybe not. It depends as always what the choice is? Keeping the Empires lamps on or chaos under the Jedi.

    It sounds like near perfect government under Palpatine, especially long term planning and delivering big infrastructure projects, so you have to wonder why the films told the story from perspective of the villains, trying to take everything back to days of liaises faire mystical rulers.

    Liberal hippy Hollywood pushing its own agenda.
    Say what you want about Palpatine but he did push through some sorely needed radical constitutional reform.
    Death Stars of mass destruction ensure a peaceful galaxy.

    Look how much jobs the Death Star alone created? Proper high skill high wage jobs. Business as usual engineering. A small army of inventory officers to keep it going. And Cleaners. Canteen staff.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv5iEK-IEzw&list=PLsb7Jk3kBX-gh2qDGFalqpXaSfL6YmSaw&index=3
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,723
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    Phil said:

    Heathener said:

    This is another terrible terrible terrible mistake by Johnson.

    Regardless of the cost, he relies on his new friends up north.

    He risks losing the south and the north. I'm beginning to think a repeat of the Mayday 1997 carnage is on the cards.

    I did originally think that the influx of northern MPs might lead to a realignment of the Tory party, at the lasting expense of Labour.

    But now it seems that Johnson is determined to dump these voters at the first opportunity. What happens to a Tory party that has pissed off both its previous core vote in London & the home counties /and/ it’s new voters in the north is anyone’s guess, but I don’t think it can be anything good.
    And worse the opposition has 2 separate parties both of whom can target different issues in the respective areas.

    The Lib Dems will make inroads into the Tory's southern safe seats via Nimbyism and other local factors, Labour will recover some of their northern seats and the Tories will have little choice but to move further right.
    That is possible. If Starmer becomes PM in 2023/24 in a hung parliament with some gains from the Tories in the Redwall and London, a few LD gains from the Tories in Remain and NIMBY areas of the South and some SNP gains from the Tories in Scotland then the Tories will move right in opposition.

    It is not hard to see Patel or JRM becoming Tory Leader of the Opposition in a few years in a purer more rightwing Tory party in opposition much as Labour moved left in opposition to Ed Miliband and then Corbyn after losing power in 2010
    I don't know if that is correct (none of us do), but it is a reasonable analysis. If it happens will you still support the party HYUFD?
    Of course, as I always do
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    Jonathan said:

    Jabba the Hutt, ruling the outer-rim Holyrood, is an invaluable ally to Palpatine in his ongoing war against the Jedi.

    He seemed to be a much diminished figure under the Empire, order brought to lawless regions with tanksstarships.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,850
    edited November 2021
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    Phil said:

    Heathener said:

    This is another terrible terrible terrible mistake by Johnson.

    Regardless of the cost, he relies on his new friends up north.

    He risks losing the south and the north. I'm beginning to think a repeat of the Mayday 1997 carnage is on the cards.

    I did originally think that the influx of northern MPs might lead to a realignment of the Tory party, at the lasting expense of Labour.

    But now it seems that Johnson is determined to dump these voters at the first opportunity. What happens to a Tory party that has pissed off both its previous core vote in London & the home counties /and/ it’s new voters in the north is anyone’s guess, but I don’t think it can be anything good.
    And worse the opposition has 2 separate parties both of whom can target different issues in the respective areas.

    The Lib Dems will make inroads into the Tory's southern safe seats via Nimbyism and other local factors, Labour will recover some of their northern seats and the Tories will have little choice but to move further right.
    That is possible. If Starmer becomes PM in 2023/24 in a hung parliament with some gains from the Tories in the Redwall and London, a few LD gains from the Tories in Remain and NIMBY areas of the South and some SNP gains from the Tories in Scotland then the Tories will move right in opposition.

    It is not hard to see Patel or JRM becoming Tory Leader of the Opposition in a few years in a purer more rightwing Tory party in opposition much as Labour moved left in opposition to Ed Miliband and then Corbyn after losing power in 2010
    Ooh..touting JRM for leader again. We all made a fortune laying him, the last time Tories starting suggesting he should lead.

    Weird, the first thought parties seem to have when they get turfed out of government (in this case prospective) is “if we’re going to lose, let’s lose big!”.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Mr. Leon, by that metric Quentin Tarantino is screwed.

    I do wonder about Pulp Fiction. Would it get made now? Not in that form, and the scene where Tarantino drops Nbombs constantly would surely be excised
    I think he says it twice, to be fair, and Samuel Jackson addresses
    Ving Rhames as "n*gro."

    There's scenes in True Romance and hateful 8 which try to exploit the repetition of n*gger for comic effect, and fail dreadfully.
    'Luke Cage' on Netflix uses it all the time.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    edited November 2021
    kamski said:

    kle4 said:

    The BBC are apologising to viewers who may be offended by the language being used - by an Asian man telling a parliamentary committee that he was called the P word.

    I am offended by the fact that he was on the receiving end of racism - not by the fact that he is calling it out in public.

    Well quite, it's just absurd. If you are watching a news report about a discussion of racism then offensive terms and actions are going to come up, it's inevitable and, for once, the appropriate place for it to come up.
    Depends though doesn't it. These are taboo words. Even though "fuck" is only mildly taboo these days, I wouldn't be surprised if the BBC still apologised if someone used the word "fuck" in a news report - especially before the watershed, even if the news report was about people using swear words.

    Has someone got a link to the apology? Just curious whether it really is absurd.
    Yes, but an obscenity is not quite the same thing as a racial insult in a discussion about racist behaviour. Perhaps if that is the concern they should not play live footage on the main news sites, but where it is being shown it should be unfiltered, including with obscenities, because it isn't people just blasting out random obscenities which is still inappropriate, its testimony.

    On the balance of not broadcasting rightly taboo words and topics and providing a full picture of what is going on, for a parliamentary committee the latter should win out over whether we're past the watershed or not for example.
  • tomfantomfan Posts: 21
    Daily Mail has a nice picture of a maskless Mark Drakeford letting his hair down at a packed party.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    edited November 2021

    2019 wallers are getting pissed off...


    Mark Higgie
    @MarkHiggie1
    ·
    4h
    Matthew Goodwin argues it’s not sleaze which will undo Boris Johnson but a more general disenchantment with him.

    The former may help cause or accelerate the latter.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    Mr. Jonathan, hey, Palpatine's a very open-minded fellow. Just look how he made Thrawn a grand admiral.

    Some of his best friends are Chiss?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,088
    edited November 2021
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The reports on YCCC are awful, but so is the reporting. We do not need to have Paki and Monkey etc bleeped out - lets hear it. Its not being used as an abuse term now, its being used to call out the racists. Lets hear it so that we can shame them.

    Naive. People have lost careers for using the n word, even when in context - eg to show how the word was used by someone else. That can now get you fired and cancelled

    How is anyone to know if and when this arbitrary rule will be extended to the P word and beyond? They can’t. So they are understandably super cautious

    I recall predicting many years ago that one day racist terms would be seen as much more toxic and offensive than swear words in the 1950s

    And so it is. Perhaps that is a good thing, but my inner libertarian still thinks “they are just words, however stupid and ugly”
    I don't see a binary distinction between words and actions. Words are the result of an action - the action of writing or speaking. And this action, the writing or speaking of words, can do real damage. It can do just as much damage as other types of actions, eg punching and slapping, sometimes more.
    Do you think someone should lose their job for just quoting someone else using the N word?
    Maybe. I'd have to know the circumstances. Also 'lose their job' would need clarifying. Eg fired vs feeling shamed out vs loss of freelance income, these are different.

    General point, though, is that I sometimes hear "it's only words" as if words exist in a separate milder dimension to actions, and I don't really view it like that myself.
    You're so tediously myopic. Do you never do any research? Explore? Find out stuff? Or is it just easier to sit in a contented little bien pensant bubble in your leafy Belsize Park pub.

    I'm bored of educating you, and I shall stop interacting with you shortly. But there are countless examples of people being sacked for using the N word

    Netflix executive fired

    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/jonathan-friedland-exits-netflix-1122675/

    Teacher suspended in Georgia

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/14/georgia-teacher-n-word-classroom

    One of my favourites, a professor replaced for using a Chinese word that SOUNDS like the N word

    "In a controversial decision, the University of Southern California replaced a professor of business communication with another instructor in one of his classes for saying a Chinese word that sounds like an English slur."

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/09/08/professor-suspended-saying-chinese-word-sounds-english-slur

    UK council worker sacked (eventually reinstated)

    https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/news/articles/council-worker-racial-slur-during-training-unfairly-dismissed-tribunal-rules#gref

    Black school officer fired

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/black-school-resource-officer-fired-tampa-police-using-n-word-n1259650

    Sports coach fired

    https://www.revolt.tv/2021/5/11/22430786/kansas-coach-fired-n-word-black-student

    College professor fired

    https://www.pennlive.com/crime/2020/10/pa-college-professor-fired-for-using-n-word-3-times-in-online-class.html

    There's hundreds. That's 2 minutes Googling. Which you are apparently unable to do
    I'm aware there are sometimes false accusations of racism which can lead to injustices to the individuals on the receiving end. However imo the problem of real and actual racism in society dwarfs that of false accusations of racism or hair trigger sensitivity to it. So I simply cannot get as animated as you do about the latter stuff. Indeed I find it pretty odd when people do. I also disagree that 'words' are inherently and always less harmful than actions and that the 'policing' of them is an affront to liberty. I find that view pretty odd too. So, you know, fine, you plough on in your 'space', but don't pretend you're educating anybody on this. All you're doing is riding a hobby horse.
  • tlg86 said:

    Ian Dale on Politics Live says that members of staff at Sky were livid that they were cutting the sound on the Rafiq testimony today. Apparently Sky played it unfiltered after they had complaints from their staff.

    Did they cover the bit when Rafiq criticised David Lloyd?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,187
    kle4 said:

    kamski said:

    kle4 said:

    The BBC are apologising to viewers who may be offended by the language being used - by an Asian man telling a parliamentary committee that he was called the P word.

    I am offended by the fact that he was on the receiving end of racism - not by the fact that he is calling it out in public.

    Well quite, it's just absurd. If you are watching a news report about a discussion of racism then offensive terms and actions are going to come up, it's inevitable and, for once, the appropriate place for it to come up.
    Depends though doesn't it. These are taboo words. Even though "fuck" is only mildly taboo these days, I wouldn't be surprised if the BBC still apologised if someone used the word "fuck" in a news report - especially before the watershed, even if the news report was about people using swear words.

    Has someone got a link to the apology? Just curious whether it really is absurd.
    Yes, but an obscenity is not quite the same thing as a racial insult in a discussion about racist behaviour. Perhaps if that is the concern they should not play it on the main news sites, but where it is being shown it should be unfiltered, including with obscenities, because it isn't people just blasting out random obscenities which is still in appropriate, its testimony.
    Sure, I haven't seen or heard this apology so I can't judge if it's absurd or not. I can see they have livestream that has a warning- "may contain offensive language" on it, which seems fair enough?
  • tomfan said:

    Daily Mail has a nice picture of a maskless Mark Drakeford letting his hair down at a packed party.

    Doesn't matter, the Welsh will not forsake the Drake.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,053
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    King Cole, the bit after the Western Empire falls and before the Norman Conquest (especially pre-Alfred) is not the most popular in history for the general public.

    What annoys me is every single damned documentary or drama (well, the vast majority) are fixated retelling stories of Henry VIII and Elizabeth II when (even just looking at England) there are so many more interesting and neglected events and characters to consider.

    "The Vikings" did rather well from depicting the period, and the spin off "Vikings: Valhalla" covering the later period before the Norman conquest looks promising.

    The period that seems to be lacking is the early post Roman period. In a generation or two, we abandoned roads, towns and the trappings of urban life, turning back to subsistence farming and more egalitarian social structures.
    Perhaps we can find out about the latter in person, second time around? ;)
    The Dark Ages were only dark in the sense of the abandonment of Christianity, and also literacy. It happened between 409 and 450 or so, so a couple of generations. There seems surprisingly little evidence of resistance to going back to a simpler more sustainable communitarian lifestyle once the Romans stopped enforcing the alternative.
    Who abandoned Christianity in 409->450 or so? Not really my period.

    (or is that the joke I just edited out?)
    (Blockquote maybe borked warning)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,509
    Armenia is reportedly invoking the CSTO's collective defence treaty since Azerbaijan has attacked Syunik Province with gun fire, artillery and missile fire.

    https://twitter.com/oulosP/status/1460583460771356678
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/pensions-retirement/news/government-abandons-pensioners-triple-lock-suspension-confirmed/

    "More than 12 million pensioners will be hundreds of pounds worse off next year, as pensions will fail to keep pace with surging inflation."

    So that's the red wall and the pensioners. Homeowners next?
  • Leon said:

    <
    You're so tediously myopic. Do you never do any research? Explore? Find out stuff? Or is it just easier to sit in a contented little bien pensant bubble in your leafy Belsize Park pub.

    I'm bored of educating you, and I shall stop interacting with you shortly. But there are countless examples of people being sacked for using the N word

    Netflix executive fired

    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/jonathan-friedland-exits-netflix-1122675/

    Teacher suspended in Georgia

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/14/georgia-teacher-n-word-classroom

    One of my favourites, a professor replaced for using a Chinese word that SOUNDS like the N word

    "In a controversial decision, the University of Southern California replaced a professor of business communication with another instructor in one of his classes for saying a Chinese word that sounds like an English slur."

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/09/08/professor-suspended-saying-chinese-word-sounds-english-slur

    UK council worker sacked (eventually reinstated)

    https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/news/articles/council-worker-racial-slur-during-training-unfairly-dismissed-tribunal-rules#gref

    Black school officer fired

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/black-school-resource-officer-fired-tampa-police-using-n-word-n1259650


    Sports coach fired

    https://www.revolt.tv/2021/5/11/22430786/kansas-coach-fired-n-word-black-student

    College professor fired

    https://www.pennlive.com/crime/2020/10/pa-college-professor-fired-for-using-n-word-3-times-in-online-class.html


    There's hundreds. That's 2 minutes Googling. Which you are apparently unable to do

    Wasn't there a case in the UK about someone who got into big trouble for using the word 'niggardly'?
  • Mr. Richard, that's true, but the fact money's found for southern infrastructure but Yorkshire can do without is still a very damaging story.

    That depends on whether they invest in infrastructure which is useful in Yorkshire.

    And there's a lot more to Yorkshire than Leeds and Sheffield.

    I'll say this for the Cameron government - it built some useful roads in South Yorkshire.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738
    Jonathan said:

    Jabba the Hutt, ruling the outer-rim Holyrood, is an invaluable ally to Palpatine in his ongoing war against the Jedi.

    THat's a bit unkind, comparing Mr Hutt to the Sec of State for Scotland.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,773
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    Phil said:

    Heathener said:

    This is another terrible terrible terrible mistake by Johnson.

    Regardless of the cost, he relies on his new friends up north.

    He risks losing the south and the north. I'm beginning to think a repeat of the Mayday 1997 carnage is on the cards.

    I did originally think that the influx of northern MPs might lead to a realignment of the Tory party, at the lasting expense of Labour.

    But now it seems that Johnson is determined to dump these voters at the first opportunity. What happens to a Tory party that has pissed off both its previous core vote in London & the home counties /and/ it’s new voters in the north is anyone’s guess, but I don’t think it can be anything good.
    And worse the opposition has 2 separate parties both of whom can target different issues in the respective areas.

    The Lib Dems will make inroads into the Tory's southern safe seats via Nimbyism and other local factors, Labour will recover some of their northern seats and the Tories will have little choice but to move further right.
    That is possible. If Starmer becomes PM in 2023/24 in a hung parliament with some gains from the Tories in the Redwall and London, a few LD gains from the Tories in Remain and NIMBY areas of the South and some SNP gains from the Tories in Scotland then the Tories will move right in opposition.

    It is not hard to see Patel or JRM becoming Tory Leader of the Opposition in a few years in a purer more rightwing Tory party in opposition much as Labour moved left in opposition to Ed Miliband and then Corbyn after losing power in 2010
    I don't know if that is correct (none of us do), but it is a reasonable analysis. If it happens will you still support the party HYUFD?
    Of course, as I always do
    Presumably there is a point where you won't? If they became a socialist, liberal or fascist party. The first is unlikely, but the latter two are possible under the right circumstances.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    Jonathan said:

    Curious to see a lot of support for Palpatine upthread. I suspect many Home Counties Coruscentian Tories will never accept someone with such a strong regional Naboovian accent and who didn't go to the right academy. For others he will simply be not right wing enough.

    Maybe. Maybe not. It depends as always what the choice is? Keeping the Empires lamps on or chaos under the Jedi.

    It sounds like near perfect government under Palpatine, especially long term planning and delivering big infrastructure projects, so you have to wonder why the films told the story from perspective of the villains, trying to take everything back to days of liaises faire mystical rulers.

    Liberal hippy Hollywood pushing its own agenda.
    Say what you want about Palpatine but he did push through some sorely needed radical constitutional reform.
    Death Stars of mass destruction ensure a peaceful galaxy.

    Look how much jobs the Death Star alone created? Proper high skill high wage jobs. Business as usual engineering. A small army of inventory officers to keep it going. And Cleaners. Canteen staff.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv5iEK-IEzw&list=PLsb7Jk3kBX-gh2qDGFalqpXaSfL6YmSaw&index=3
    And how many died when they blew up the first one, not to mention all the construction workers, as famously observed in Clerks, who were slaughtered when the second was destroyed?
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