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The LDs could be worth a punt in North Shropshire – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,893
    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Very good COVID stats again today. England cases down significantly compared to last week, R value of around 0.7 and falling.

    As with yesterday, I'm at a loss to explain why cases are dropping so fast other than the nation crossing the herd immunity threshold for all age groups.

    Well quite. With zero npi really, and life pretty as normal, and into the depth of autumn, to see cases fall points to herd immunity being reached. And when you get there, cases can suddenly start to fall away, as in the kids right now.
    Indeed, and what gives me the cautious optimism is the real time Google mobility data I saw on Friday which shows more people are travelling into city centres on public transport and spending more time indoors than they were three weeks ago when cases were at the autumn peak. There hasn't been any behavioural change driving this and anecdotally there are fewer people wearing masks indoors than I've ever noticed.
    I still find it interesting though that London is such an outlier. It could of course be HIT being met earlier, but there is still a hell of a lot WfH going on, particularly in the Public Sector. At least two days a week i'm regularly the only person in an office of 70 odd. And anecdotally i've heard there are increasing concerns about levels of productivity (that held up pretty well in the first year of the pandemic) such that there is increasing urgency to get people back in greater numbers.
    It's almost certainly herd immunity in London, the first wave in London was absolutely devastating, just mostly unrecorded. The vaccination level is also a lot higher than the dashboard implies, maybe even higher than using the ONS as a denominator.
    If it’s anything like what happened out here, the point at which herd immunity is reached is like hitting the proverbial brick wall.



    Today, 70 cases from 250k tests of a 10m population. It’s as good as over.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,161
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    What is everyone doing on here and not watching The Cruel Sea on iPlayer.

    Waiting for the Grand Prix to start.
    Watching Dr Who.
  • Options

    Origi!

    This is a great game, even if we are 3-2 down. Come on, would love a comeback here.

    As a West Ham fan I am of course delighted.
    Following on from that I just looked at the schedule for West Ham for December. 9 Games!! 7 Premier League, 1 Europa Cup and 1 League Cup game. And that is even with Christmas in there. Bloody hell that's a full schedule.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Very good COVID stats again today. England cases down significantly compared to last week, R value of around 0.7 and falling.

    As with yesterday, I'm at a loss to explain why cases are dropping so fast other than the nation crossing the herd immunity threshold for all age groups.

    Well quite. With zero npi really, and life pretty as normal, and into the depth of autumn, to see cases fall points to herd immunity being reached. And when you get there, cases can suddenly start to fall away, as in the kids right now.
    Indeed, and what gives me the cautious optimism is the real time Google mobility data I saw on Friday which shows more people are travelling into city centres on public transport and spending more time indoors than they were three weeks ago when cases were at the autumn peak. There hasn't been any behavioural change driving this and anecdotally there are fewer people wearing masks indoors than I've ever noticed.
    I still find it interesting though that London is such an outlier. It could of course be HIT being met earlier, but there is still a hell of a lot WfH going on, particularly in the Public Sector. At least two days a week i'm regularly the only person in an office of 70 odd. And anecdotally i've heard there are increasing concerns about levels of productivity (that held up pretty well in the first year of the pandemic) such that there is increasing urgency to get people back in greater numbers.
    It's almost certainly herd immunity in London, the first wave in London was absolutely devastating, just mostly unrecorded. The vaccination level is also a lot higher than the dashboard implies, maybe even higher than using the ONS as a denominator.
    Yeah i suppose it's true that there was significant depopulation from Brexit/Covid returnees that wouldn't be picked up in the numbers. Which also makes sense that the case numbers now are skewed towards the wealthier areas with less transient populations where data might be more reliable. The above could also mean that London's position as an outlier is somewhat skewed by exaggerated population denominator.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,295
    edited November 2021
    Bloody hell Denholm Elliott looks young. Actually looks a bit like Craig Revel-Horwood.
  • Options
    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    With regards to North Shropshire and remain vs leave there is a basic question.

    Is a 5 year old vote most important? Or a corrupt party taking money from the pockets of North Shropshire voters and handing it to their mates?

    Remember folks - if the Tories win these by-elections, the corruption continues.

    I think @algarkirk said it best earlier, this doesn’t feel like one of those shock results. No HS2, no changes to the planning laws, voted Brexit.

    FYI, this is the local newspaper site. It doesn’t really suggest Owen Paterson is dominating too many people’s thoughts:

    https://www.bordercountiesadvertizer.co.uk/news/
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056
    TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell Denholm Elliott looks young. Actually looks a bit like Craig Revel-Horwood.

    He would have been about 20 years younger than Craig Revel-Horwood at the time he made that film.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Scotland's figures are interesting though. Do they indicate that they haven't hit herd immunity but current measures are "controlling" the virus at a relatively high level - or they have and this is the endemic level that would be picked up by mass testing.

    The answer to that would give a clue as to where England is ultimately headed. Can't quite see how we're going to get down to levels of a few '000 a day on the current trends, unless we are materially different to Scotland.


  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Very good COVID stats again today. England cases down significantly compared to last week, R value of around 0.7 and falling.

    As with yesterday, I'm at a loss to explain why cases are dropping so fast other than the nation crossing the herd immunity threshold for all age groups.

    Well quite. With zero npi really, and life pretty as normal, and into the depth of autumn, to see cases fall points to herd immunity being reached. And when you get there, cases can suddenly start to fall away, as in the kids right now.
    Indeed, and what gives me the cautious optimism is the real time Google mobility data I saw on Friday which shows more people are travelling into city centres on public transport and spending more time indoors than they were three weeks ago when cases were at the autumn peak. There hasn't been any behavioural change driving this and anecdotally there are fewer people wearing masks indoors than I've ever noticed.
    I still find it interesting though that London is such an outlier. It could of course be HIT being met earlier, but there is still a hell of a lot WfH going on, particularly in the Public Sector. At least two days a week i'm regularly the only person in an office of 70 odd. And anecdotally i've heard there are increasing concerns about levels of productivity (that held up pretty well in the first year of the pandemic) such that there is increasing urgency to get people back in greater numbers.
    It's almost certainly herd immunity in London, the first wave in London was absolutely devastating, just mostly unrecorded. The vaccination level is also a lot higher than the dashboard implies, maybe even higher than using the ONS as a denominator.
    Yeah i suppose it's true that there was significant depopulation from Brexit/Covid returnees that wouldn't be picked up in the numbers. Which also makes sense that the case numbers now are skewed towards the wealthier areas with less transient populations where data might be more reliable. The above could also mean that London's position as an outlier is somewhat skewed by exaggerated population denominator.
    I think it's probably because there are fewer families in London compared to the rest of the country because family houses are so expensive. Where my parents live in zone 4 a four bedroom semi sold on their road for just over £1.5m, I think it just means that there aren't as many kids as elsewhere per capita.
  • Options

    To make it entirely clear, I am not down because Labour isn't in Government, I am down because of other mental health issues and the bet I had placed I was just hoping might give me some temporary happiness. I am seeking help

    All the best CHB. I'm glad you're seeking help. Take care of yourself.
  • Options
    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    MaxPB said:

    To make it entirely clear, I am not down because Labour isn't in Government, I am down because of other mental health issues and the bet I had placed I was just hoping might give me some temporary happiness. I am seeking help

    Hey mate, hope you get the help you need, if you're in or around the square mile in the week happy to catch up over a drink/coffee if you just want someone to talk to.
    Ditto on what Max said, @CorrectHorseBattery, if you do happen to be in London and want someone to talk to if it helps. I hope it is all ok.
  • Options
    JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 1,254
    Okay - I'm listening to 5 Live.

    Signing off for the day.

    Catch you all tomorrow.
  • Options
    Things would have to be absolutely desperate if the LD's are serious candidates in this byelection. Over the last few months they have had nothing worthwhile to say about anything. They seem to be obseessed with trans issues to the exclusion of anything else.
  • Options
    MrEd said:

    With regards to North Shropshire and remain vs leave there is a basic question.

    Is a 5 year old vote most important? Or a corrupt party taking money from the pockets of North Shropshire voters and handing it to their mates?

    Remember folks - if the Tories win these by-elections, the corruption continues.

    I think @algarkirk said it best earlier, this doesn’t feel like one of those shock results. No HS2, no changes to the planning laws, voted Brexit.

    FYI, this is the local newspaper site. It doesn’t really suggest Owen Paterson is dominating too many people’s thoughts:

    https://www.bordercountiesadvertizer.co.uk/news/
    So they'll vote for more corruption and more of their money to be usurped?

    I expect the Tories will win it. But don't write off a "shock" - contentious by-elections produce such results now and then. As for the local rag, they don't always capture what is going on quickly
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274
    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Very good COVID stats again today. England cases down significantly compared to last week, R value of around 0.7 and falling.

    As with yesterday, I'm at a loss to explain why cases are dropping so fast other than the nation crossing the herd immunity threshold for all age groups.

    Well quite. With zero npi really, and life pretty as normal, and into the depth of autumn, to see cases fall points to herd immunity being reached. And when you get there, cases can suddenly start to fall away, as in the kids right now.
    Indeed, and what gives me the cautious optimism is the real time Google mobility data I saw on Friday which shows more people are travelling into city centres on public transport and spending more time indoors than they were three weeks ago when cases were at the autumn peak. There hasn't been any behavioural change driving this and anecdotally there are fewer people wearing masks indoors than I've ever noticed.
    I still find it interesting though that London is such an outlier. It could of course be HIT being met earlier, but there is still a hell of a lot WfH going on, particularly in the Public Sector. At least two days a week i'm regularly the only person in an office of 70 odd. And anecdotally i've heard there are increasing concerns about levels of productivity (that held up pretty well in the first year of the pandemic) such that there is increasing urgency to get people back in greater numbers.
    It's almost certainly herd immunity in London, the first wave in London was absolutely devastating, just mostly unrecorded. The vaccination level is also a lot higher than the dashboard implies, maybe even higher than using the ONS as a denominator.
    Yeah i suppose it's true that there was significant depopulation from Brexit/Covid returnees that wouldn't be picked up in the numbers. Which also makes sense that the case numbers now are skewed towards the wealthier areas with less transient populations where data might be more reliable. The above could also mean that London's position as an outlier is somewhat skewed by exaggerated population denominator.
    I think it's probably because there are fewer families in London compared to the rest of the country because family houses are so expensive. Where my parents live in zone 4 a four bedroom semi sold on their road for just over £1.5m, I think it just means that there aren't as many kids as elsewhere per capita.
    That’s certainly not true of the ethnic parts of London. My old council in London couldn’t open (or more commonly expand) schools fast enough, and we had primaries with over 1,000 places completely full.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,218
    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Very good COVID stats again today. England cases down significantly compared to last week, R value of around 0.7 and falling.

    As with yesterday, I'm at a loss to explain why cases are dropping so fast other than the nation crossing the herd immunity threshold for all age groups.

    Well quite. With zero npi really, and life pretty as normal, and into the depth of autumn, to see cases fall points to herd immunity being reached. And when you get there, cases can suddenly start to fall away, as in the kids right now.
    Indeed, and what gives me the cautious optimism is the real time Google mobility data I saw on Friday which shows more people are travelling into city centres on public transport and spending more time indoors than they were three weeks ago when cases were at the autumn peak. There hasn't been any behavioural change driving this and anecdotally there are fewer people wearing masks indoors than I've ever noticed.
    I still find it interesting though that London is such an outlier. It could of course be HIT being met earlier, but there is still a hell of a lot WfH going on, particularly in the Public Sector. At least two days a week i'm regularly the only person in an office of 70 odd. And anecdotally i've heard there are increasing concerns about levels of productivity (that held up pretty well in the first year of the pandemic) such that there is increasing urgency to get people back in greater numbers.
    It's almost certainly herd immunity in London, the first wave in London was absolutely devastating, just mostly unrecorded. The vaccination level is also a lot higher than the dashboard implies, maybe even higher than using the ONS as a denominator.
    Well, it would be herd immunity at this level of social mixing, working from home, etc. If you went back to pre-pandemic levels of commuting and social mixing you'd expect a bit of a bump in spread.

    Back in Edinburgh I find that the local library is still closed (too small to be abide by Covid-19 regulations), our office is still closed until at least January, and I think I might try to see if I can go to the pub for knit group for the first time in 21 months despite still having to wear a mask to do so.
  • Options

    Things would have to be absolutely desperate if the LD's are serious candidates in this byelection. Over the last few months they have had nothing worthwhile to say about anything. They seem to be obseessed with trans issues to the exclusion of anything else.

    Quite right. Having had their MP hounded out of parliament for egregious toughing, people must vote for more of the same because trans rights.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,284
    edited November 2021

    With regards to North Shropshire and remain vs leave there is a basic question.

    Is a 5 year old vote most important? Or a corrupt party taking money from the pockets of North Shropshire voters and handing it to their mates?

    Remember folks - if the Tories win these by-elections, the corruption continues.

    Ultimately it is for the opposition to make a case for government, guilt tripping the electorate may not be enough

    Marr did query Starmer this morning over why 7 of his mps had been given jail sentences in the last 10 years

    '7 Labour MPs given jail sentences!' Marr skewers Starmer over attacks on Tory sleaze

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1517721/andrew-marr-keir-starmer-claudia-webb-seven-labour-mps-jail-sentence-tory-sleaze-vn-1517721#ICID=Android_ExpressNewApp_AppShare
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,295

    TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell Denholm Elliott looks young. Actually looks a bit like Craig Revel-Horwood.

    He would have been about 20 years younger than Craig Revel-Horwood at the time he made that film.
    There's definitely something there.
  • Options
    LIBDEMS - SPINNING HERE!

    :lol:
  • Options

    With regards to North Shropshire and remain vs leave there is a basic question.

    Is a 5 year old vote most important? Or a corrupt party taking money from the pockets of North Shropshire voters and handing it to their mates?

    Remember folks - if the Tories win these by-elections, the corruption continues.

    Ultimately it is for the opposition to make a case for government, guilt tripping the electorate may not be enough

    Marr did query Starmer this morning over why 7 of his mps had been given jail sentences in the last 10 years
    Its a by-election, not about programs for government. Nor does this (or the other one) make a material difference to the government's majority. So both are prime for a protest if people decide they want to make one.

    On your latter comment you do have to wonder how parties don't do proper due diligence. There have been some absolutely shocking MPs in recent times...
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274
    The Sunday Rawnsley:

    His housemaster at Eton noted his belief that he should be treated as “an exception, one who should be free of the network of obligation which binds everyone else”. He rarely encounters a rule without feeling the urge to break it. Know this and you are well on the way to understanding why the government engaged in grubby scheming to undermine parliament’s anti-corruption safeguards, then brutish bullying of Tory MPs to make them follow the prime minister’s orders.

    This could have been a very small footnote in the life of this parliament. It was choices made in Downing Street that turned a lobbying affair involving one former cabinet minister into an utterly disreputable episode for the entire government…highly aggressive whipping, which is alleged to have included threats to cut funding to the constituencies of any Tory MP who refused to fall in with the plot. That’s not parliamentary government – that’s government as an extortion racket.

    It was predictable to anyone living outside the Boris Johnson bubble that fiddling with the rules in this nakedly partisan fashion would trigger a tsunami of condemnation. Someone extremely close to events says: “I think it was when he saw the headlines on Wednesday night that Boris decided he had to order the retreat.” All those Tories who went along with the attempt to subvert the standards regime have been left looking stupid for making themselves complicit with the squalid scheme.

    People close to Mr Johnson confirm that he ditched the attempt to meddle with the anti-corruption rules because he was taken aback by the scale of the opposition. That is very telling. He failed to appreciate why others would attach importance to standards in public life because he cares so little about them himself. In comparison with many other democracies, and in the absence of a written constitution, Britain lacks all that many checks and balances to curb bad behaviour by the ruling party. The forced retreat over the Paterson affair is not only a very deserved humiliation, it is also a very necessary defeat.
  • Options

    With regards to North Shropshire and remain vs leave there is a basic question.

    Is a 5 year old vote most important? Or a corrupt party taking money from the pockets of North Shropshire voters and handing it to their mates?

    Remember folks - if the Tories win these by-elections, the corruption continues.

    Ultimately it is for the opposition to make a case for government, guilt tripping the electorate may not be enough

    Marr did query Starmer this morning over why 7 of his mps had been given jail sentences in the last 10 years
    Its a by-election, not about programs for government. Nor does this (or the other one) make a material difference to the government's majority. So both are prime for a protest if people decide they want to make one.

    On your latter comment you do have to wonder how parties don't do proper due diligence. There have been some absolutely shocking MPs in recent times...
    And the sad thing is most mps are decent hard working representatives of their community
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,295
    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Very good COVID stats again today. England cases down significantly compared to last week, R value of around 0.7 and falling.

    As with yesterday, I'm at a loss to explain why cases are dropping so fast other than the nation crossing the herd immunity threshold for all age groups.

    Well quite. With zero npi really, and life pretty as normal, and into the depth of autumn, to see cases fall points to herd immunity being reached. And when you get there, cases can suddenly start to fall away, as in the kids right now.
    Indeed, and what gives me the cautious optimism is the real time Google mobility data I saw on Friday which shows more people are travelling into city centres on public transport and spending more time indoors than they were three weeks ago when cases were at the autumn peak. There hasn't been any behavioural change driving this and anecdotally there are fewer people wearing masks indoors than I've ever noticed.
    I still find it interesting though that London is such an outlier. It could of course be HIT being met earlier, but there is still a hell of a lot WfH going on, particularly in the Public Sector. At least two days a week i'm regularly the only person in an office of 70 odd. And anecdotally i've heard there are increasing concerns about levels of productivity (that held up pretty well in the first year of the pandemic) such that there is increasing urgency to get people back in greater numbers.
    It's almost certainly herd immunity in London, the first wave in London was absolutely devastating, just mostly unrecorded. The vaccination level is also a lot higher than the dashboard implies, maybe even higher than using the ONS as a denominator.
    Yeah i suppose it's true that there was significant depopulation from Brexit/Covid returnees that wouldn't be picked up in the numbers. Which also makes sense that the case numbers now are skewed towards the wealthier areas with less transient populations where data might be more reliable. The above could also mean that London's position as an outlier is somewhat skewed by exaggerated population denominator.
    I think it's probably because there are fewer families in London compared to the rest of the country because family houses are so expensive. Where my parents live in zone 4 a four bedroom semi sold on their road for just over £1.5m, I think it just means that there aren't as many kids as elsewhere per capita.
    That’s certainly not true of the ethnic parts of London. My old council in London couldn’t open (or more commonly expand) schools fast enough, and we had primaries with over 1,000 places completely full.
    Blimey what are ethnic parts of London now?
  • Options

    With regards to North Shropshire and remain vs leave there is a basic question.

    Is a 5 year old vote most important? Or a corrupt party taking money from the pockets of North Shropshire voters and handing it to their mates?

    Remember folks - if the Tories win these by-elections, the corruption continues.

    Ultimately it is for the opposition to make a case for government, guilt tripping the electorate may not be enough

    Marr did query Starmer this morning over why 7 of his mps had been given jail sentences in the last 10 years

    '7 Labour MPs given jail sentences!' Marr skewers Starmer over attacks on Tory sleaze

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1517721/andrew-marr-keir-starmer-claudia-webb-seven-labour-mps-jail-sentence-tory-sleaze-vn-1517721#ICID=Android_ExpressNewApp_AppShare
    Only 7?
    7?

    Complete amateurs compared to the Indian Parliament :lol:

    https://www.indiatoday.in/elections/lok-sabha-2019/story/50-per-cent-mps-new-lok-sabha-criminal-records-1534465-2019-05-25
  • Options
    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Rawnsley:

    His housemaster at Eton noted his belief that he should be treated as “an exception, one who should be free of the network of obligation which binds everyone else”. He rarely encounters a rule without feeling the urge to break it. Know this and you are well on the way to understanding why the government engaged in grubby scheming to undermine parliament’s anti-corruption safeguards, then brutish bullying of Tory MPs to make them follow the prime minister’s orders.

    This could have been a very small footnote in the life of this parliament. It was choices made in Downing Street that turned a lobbying affair involving one former cabinet minister into an utterly disreputable episode for the entire government…highly aggressive whipping, which is alleged to have included threats to cut funding to the constituencies of any Tory MP who refused to fall in with the plot. That’s not parliamentary government – that’s government as an extortion racket.

    It was predictable to anyone living outside the Boris Johnson bubble that fiddling with the rules in this nakedly partisan fashion would trigger a tsunami of condemnation. Someone extremely close to events says: “I think it was when he saw the headlines on Wednesday night that Boris decided he had to order the retreat.” All those Tories who went along with the attempt to subvert the standards regime have been left looking stupid for making themselves complicit with the squalid scheme.

    People close to Mr Johnson confirm that he ditched the attempt to meddle with the anti-corruption rulecause he was taken aback by the scale of the opposition. That is very telling. He failed to appreciate why others would attach importance to standards in public life because he cares so little about them himself. In comparison with many other democracies, and in the absence of a written constitution, Britain lacks all that many checks and balances to curb bad behaviour by the ruling party. The forced retreat over the Paterson affair is not only a very deserved humiliation, it is also a very necessary defeat.

    I cannot disagree with that but he may still win GE24
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    Well, that was quite spectacular.
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    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    Bottas really is disgracefully shit.

    3 cars side by side - the only 1 with nothing to lose was the first on the breaks!

    He should have been going as deep as he needed to block max, ideally making them both super slow. Dreadful as usual and now no chance of a good race.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    JBriskin3 said:

    To make it entirely clear, I am not down because Labour isn't in Government, I am down because of other mental health issues and the bet I had placed I was just hoping might give me some temporary happiness. I am seeking help

    This may be trite advice, but focusing on physical things that you can control can be an effective way to bring psychological things that seem beyond control into some kind of order. Eat healthily, get some exercise, regularise sleep patterns, etc.
    +1 for this.

    Get outside and enjoy the outside world. I have found this, personally, very helpful in the past.
    Fuck that - I think the best advice to give CHB is to ask for benzos from his phychiastrist. Benzos cheer everyone up.
    Even in jest that is unseemly
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,376
    Completely off topic - saw the Bond film yesterday. Utterly shit.

    I feel like the producers should apologise to George Lazenby for dragging his effort into their mess...
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    Muppets. Don't put the fastest lap sign up when they haven't had a full lap yet!
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    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    All 3 of Max's teammates would have made it their business to disrupt Lewis there, but good old Bottas decided to nope out of the situation and slam the breaks on early. Struggling to believe Sauber even want him.
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    I assume the by election will be next year now
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    maaarsh said:

    All 3 of Max's teammates would have made it their business to disrupt Lewis there, but good old Bottas decided to nope out of the situation and slam the breaks on early. Struggling to believe Sauber even want him.

    I'm just amazed that Bottas, Verstappen and Hamilton were all side by side and it was somebody else caused the crash!
  • Options
    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    ydoethur said:

    maaarsh said:

    All 3 of Max's teammates would have made it their business to disrupt Lewis there, but good old Bottas decided to nope out of the situation and slam the breaks on early. Struggling to believe Sauber even want him.

    I'm just amazed that Bottas, Verstappen and Hamilton were all side by side and it was somebody else caused the crash!
    Well it's saved me 90 minutes at least, rest of this will be a procession.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,574
    .
    maaarsh said:

    Bottas really is disgracefully shit.

    3 cars side by side - the only 1 with nothing to lose was the first on the breaks!

    He should have been going as deep as he needed to block max, ideally making them both super slow. Dreadful as usual and now no chance of a good race.

    Bottas is quick, but never really been any good racing.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,111
    HYUFD said:

    Staff at one of the world’s largest investment companies now have to get special approval if they want to hire a white man, rather than a woman or an ethnic minority candidate
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1457337470337617924?s=20

    Grotesque. I would vote for Trump over this
  • Options
    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Staff at one of the world’s largest investment companies now have to get special approval if they want to hire a white man, rather than a woman or an ethnic minority candidate
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1457337470337617924?s=20

    Grotesque. I would vote for Trump over this

    Bruno Maçães
    @MacaesBruno
    ·
    26m
    Incredible to think very serious people were discussing the Russian collusion idea every day for years, then we find out it was all false but everyone has moved on without being in any way troubled by any of it
  • Options
    maaarsh said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Staff at one of the world’s largest investment companies now have to get special approval if they want to hire a white man, rather than a woman or an ethnic minority candidate
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1457337470337617924?s=20

    Grotesque. I would vote for Trump over this

    Bruno Maçães
    @MacaesBruno
    ·
    26m
    Incredible to think very serious people were discussing the Russian collusion idea every day for years, then we find out it was all false but everyone has moved on without being in any way troubled by any of it
    It wasn't false. Multiple people went to jail for it.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,295
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Staff at one of the world’s largest investment companies now have to get special approval if they want to hire a white man, rather than a woman or an ethnic minority candidate
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1457337470337617924?s=20

    Grotesque. I would vote for Trump over this
    Because you are a twat.

    A brief view of the details says that they can hire whomever they want but must show that they have also interviewed other candidates who are female, black, etc.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,295
    Leon said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    To make it entirely clear, I am not down because Labour isn't in Government, I am down because of other mental health issues and the bet I had placed I was just hoping might give me some temporary happiness. I am seeking help

    This may be trite advice, but focusing on physical things that you can control can be an effective way to bring psychological things that seem beyond control into some kind of order. Eat healthily, get some exercise, regularise sleep patterns, etc.
    +1 for this.

    Get outside and enjoy the outside world. I have found this, personally, very helpful in the past.
    Fuck that - I think the best advice to give CHB is to ask for benzos from his phychiastrist. Benzos cheer everyone up.
    Benzos is really BAD advice, especially Xanax, unless they are literally staving off suicidality

    A Benzo/xanax habit is seriously dangerous for someone with pre-existent mental health issues
    Oh and there you go proving yourself slightly less twattish.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,295
    Interesting part of The Cruel Sea when in order to destroy a suspected U-boat they had to kill some British troops also.

    Today no doubt the ship's captain would be subject to criminal charges.
  • Options
    . . . meanwhile back at the ranch . . .

    Here in Seattle & King Co, Washington, one of America's Whitest major metro areas, the following were elected to major office this year:

    > Black/Korean mayor (who defeated Latina opponent) who is Emerald City's second Black elected mayor.

    > First woman city attorney, defeating another woman for the job (together they knocked the male incumbent out in the primary)

    > for city council, a Latina was re-elected at-large, while a White woman defeated Black woman for the other citywide seat.

    > Somali American immigrant woman as (countywide) Port of Seattle commissioner (she is the second Somali American elected to major office in King County in last two elections, both defeating incumbents).

    > Japanese American woman also elected port commissioner, defeating incumbent & long-time politico

    Should be noted that race & ethnicity were NOT significant factors in any of these races. But clearly none of the winners was harmed by their personal heritage.

    Once again, King Co voters from the city of Seattle to the suburbs to the exurbs have demonstrated their willingness to vote for qualified (in voters eyes anyway) candidates of color.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,923
    alex_ said:

    Scotland's figures are interesting though. Do they indicate that they haven't hit herd immunity but current measures are "controlling" the virus at a relatively high level - or they have and this is the endemic level that would be picked up by mass testing.

    The answer to that would give a clue as to where England is ultimately headed. Can't quite see how we're going to get down to levels of a few '000 a day on the current trends, unless we are materially different to Scotland.


    England has had 7,901,039 known cases (14.05%), 42.128,167 1st dose (74.93%); 38,425,760 2nd (68.3%); 8,449,161 boosters (15.0%), pop 56.223 mill

    Scotland 662,644 known cases (12.01%); 4,322,157 1st (78.34%); 3,915,116 2nd (70.9%); 957,945 boosters (17.3%), population 5.517 mill

    Pop figures https://www.ukpopulation.org/ - Scotland & England much of a muchness really

    Current English daily cases are 23,779 (0.042%)
    Scottish 2,908 (0.053%)

    So actually per head England looks like it may well have dipped below Scotland for cases now !

    With hidden cases, Vaccine induced immunity wane, natural immunity wane, hybrid immunity wane it's likely very hard to calculate herd/endemic immunity. But if you're going for it you want as few NPIs, as many previous cases and as much vaccination as possible - England specifically is probably the closest country to these ideals.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,111
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Staff at one of the world’s largest investment companies now have to get special approval if they want to hire a white man, rather than a woman or an ethnic minority candidate
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1457337470337617924?s=20

    Grotesque. I would vote for Trump over this
    Because you are a twat.

    A brief view of the details says that they can hire whomever they want but must show that they have also interviewed other candidates who are female, black, etc.
    By *this* I meant the whole of Woke, with the above being merely the latest example

    It edges close to outright racism against white people. In fact I would say it has crossed the line, big time. And it is anti male, anti feminist, and crazy

    As I say, if I were an American and given the choice between Wokeness and Trump, I might go for Trump

    Hopefully the Republicans can see sense and offer America a better choice than Trump. If they do they will sweep to victory
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,295
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Staff at one of the world’s largest investment companies now have to get special approval if they want to hire a white man, rather than a woman or an ethnic minority candidate
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1457337470337617924?s=20

    Grotesque. I would vote for Trump over this
    Because you are a twat.

    A brief view of the details says that they can hire whomever they want but must show that they have also interviewed other candidates who are female, black, etc.
    By *this* I meant the whole of Woke, with the above being merely the latest example

    It edges close to outright racism against white people. In fact I would say it has crossed the line, big time. And it is anti male, anti feminist, and crazy

    As I say, if I were an American and given the choice between Wokeness and Trump, I might go for Trump

    Hopefully the Republicans can see sense and offer America a better choice than Trump. If they do they will sweep to victory
    Bolleaux.

    They (State Street) are just ensuring everyone gets a fair chance.

    You can write long, involved posts about woke/political correctness gone mad/nothing much at all but them's the facts.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Met with my first Covid conspiracist ever today, which was exciting. They seemed to ease into it with some general questions about how many people I knew had actually had Covid, and by the end of it they were stating in all seriousness that it makes no sense that people can have a virus with no symptoms, and that covid testing centres just throw kits away and randomly mark people as positive or negativ.e
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,161
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Staff at one of the world’s largest investment companies now have to get special approval if they want to hire a white man, rather than a woman or an ethnic minority candidate
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1457337470337617924?s=20

    Grotesque. I would vote for Trump over this
    Because you are a twat.

    A brief view of the details says that they can hire whomever they want but must show that they have also interviewed other candidates who are female, black, etc.
    Ha ha, I don’t agree with ‘Leon’ one bit but so much for your ‘be kind, we’re a family’ stuff earlier in the thread.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    maaarsh said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Staff at one of the world’s largest investment companies now have to get special approval if they want to hire a white man, rather than a woman or an ethnic minority candidate
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1457337470337617924?s=20

    Grotesque. I would vote for Trump over this

    Bruno Maçães
    @MacaesBruno
    ·
    26m
    Incredible to think very serious people were discussing the Russian collusion idea every day for years, then we find out it was all false but everyone has moved on without being in any way troubled by any of it
    Macaes is a Trumpist. And it wasn't "all false", and certainly not the Russian interference aspect. There was even a GOP committee that investigated and produced a damning report on it FGS! The extent to which the Trump campaign was involved is uncertain.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,111
    Talking of Woke and - in Britain - the particular example of the Trans-TERF wars, where Britain has it worse than anyone else, coincidentally this evening I had my first really intense discussion of the issue: with my one and only Trans friend, who is in her late 50s, who transitioned in her 30s

    She is one of my oldest friends. We met at UCL nearly 40 years back! Used to be super male (snooker and football) became a woman in the late 1990s, after a rigorous procedure. I went to visit her in Charing X hospital just after her operation

    She is fiercely against the militant Trans Activists. Hates the discord, rancour and threats against J K Rowling etc, thinks the horror show is setting back the cause "decades" (her precise word).

    She says: "I never menstruated. I never grew up as a girl. I am different to a biological woman, that is just a fact."

    Pretty powerful
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,111
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Staff at one of the world’s largest investment companies now have to get special approval if they want to hire a white man, rather than a woman or an ethnic minority candidate
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1457337470337617924?s=20

    Grotesque. I would vote for Trump over this
    Because you are a twat.

    A brief view of the details says that they can hire whomever they want but must show that they have also interviewed other candidates who are female, black, etc.
    By *this* I meant the whole of Woke, with the above being merely the latest example

    It edges close to outright racism against white people. In fact I would say it has crossed the line, big time. And it is anti male, anti feminist, and crazy

    As I say, if I were an American and given the choice between Wokeness and Trump, I might go for Trump

    Hopefully the Republicans can see sense and offer America a better choice than Trump. If they do they will sweep to victory
    Bolleaux.

    They (State Street) are just ensuring everyone gets a fair chance.

    You can write long, involved posts about woke/political correctness gone mad/nothing much at all but them's the facts.
    We shall see, I reckon the American voters have had enough, and they will kick this bullshit into touch, every opportunity they can, and it is ultimately a disaster for the Left.

    The only thing preventing the Republicans winning every election until 2030 is Trump
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Very good COVID stats again today. England cases down significantly compared to last week, R value of around 0.7 and falling.

    As with yesterday, I'm at a loss to explain why cases are dropping so fast other than the nation crossing the herd immunity threshold for all age groups.

    Well, if that is the explanation that would be very good news indeed.

    Certainly it isn't easy to explain the near 50% drop in cases among teenagers just by half term.
    Have you had vaccinations at your school yet?
  • Options
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    To make it entirely clear, I am not down because Labour isn't in Government, I am down because of other mental health issues and the bet I had placed I was just hoping might give me some temporary happiness. I am seeking help

    This may be trite advice, but focusing on physical things that you can control can be an effective way to bring psychological things that seem beyond control into some kind of order. Eat healthily, get some exercise, regularise sleep patterns, etc.
    +1 for this.

    Get outside and enjoy the outside world. I have found this, personally, very helpful in the past.
    Fuck that - I think the best advice to give CHB is to ask for benzos from his phychiastrist. Benzos cheer everyone up.
    Benzos is really BAD advice, especially Xanax, unless they are literally staving off suicidality

    A Benzo/xanax habit is seriously dangerous for someone with pre-existent mental health issues
    Oh and there you go proving yourself slightly less twattish.
    "Fuck that - I think the best advice to give CHB is to ask for benzos from his phychiastrist."

    Is this a serious comment or just drunk Sunday evening bollx?

    a) Good luck with a psychiatrist getting benzos beyond an immediate crisis of two weeks.

    b) Benzos are for anxiety not "cheering" you up. You may feel less depressed because you are less anxious but that's not the same thing.

    c) Even more good luck getting Xanax via NHS, which as an institution has decided, wisely or not, to not go down the US route with this very high strength tablet.



  • Options
    TresTres Posts: 2,225
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Staff at one of the world’s largest investment companies now have to get special approval if they want to hire a white man, rather than a woman or an ethnic minority candidate
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1457337470337617924?s=20

    Grotesque. I would vote for Trump over this
    Because you are a twat.

    A brief view of the details says that they can hire whomever they want but must show that they have also interviewed other candidates who are female, black, etc.
    By *this* I meant the whole of Woke, with the above being merely the latest example

    It edges close to outright racism against white people. In fact I would say it has crossed the line, big time. And it is anti male, anti feminist, and crazy

    As I say, if I were an American and given the choice between Wokeness and Trump, I might go for Trump

    Hopefully the Republicans can see sense and offer America a better choice than Trump. If they do they will sweep to victory
    Bolleaux.

    They (State Street) are just ensuring everyone gets a fair chance.

    You can write long, involved posts about woke/political correctness gone mad/nothing much at all but them's the facts.
    We shall see, I reckon the American voters have had enough, and they will kick this bullshit into touch, every opportunity they can, and it is ultimately a disaster for the Left.

    The only thing preventing the Republicans winning every election until 2030 is Trump
    This story isn't true though. You are just getting your knickers in a twist because you gleefully like to stir false culture war bollocks.
  • Options

    I assume the by election will be next year now

    Sunday Times says just before Xmas, so the Labour turn out is shit.

    Seems an old fashioned approach - i.e. the blue collar voters can't afford a car you know, so wont vote on a wet and cold December afternoon etc etc.

  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,111

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    To make it entirely clear, I am not down because Labour isn't in Government, I am down because of other mental health issues and the bet I had placed I was just hoping might give me some temporary happiness. I am seeking help

    This may be trite advice, but focusing on physical things that you can control can be an effective way to bring psychological things that seem beyond control into some kind of order. Eat healthily, get some exercise, regularise sleep patterns, etc.
    +1 for this.

    Get outside and enjoy the outside world. I have found this, personally, very helpful in the past.
    Fuck that - I think the best advice to give CHB is to ask for benzos from his phychiastrist. Benzos cheer everyone up.
    Benzos is really BAD advice, especially Xanax, unless they are literally staving off suicidality

    A Benzo/xanax habit is seriously dangerous for someone with pre-existent mental health issues
    Oh and there you go proving yourself slightly less twattish.
    "Fuck that - I think the best advice to give CHB is to ask for benzos from his phychiastrist."

    Is this a serious comment or just drunk Sunday evening bollx?

    a) Good luck with a psychiatrist getting benzos beyond an immediate crisis of two weeks.

    b) Benzos are for anxiety not "cheering" you up. You may feel less depressed because you are less anxious but that's not the same thing.

    c) Even more good luck getting Xanax via NHS, which as an institution has decided, wisely or not, to not go down the US route with this very high strength tablet.



    Xanax - Alprazolam - is a wonderful drug. A proper high. Unfortunately the addictive potential is enormous, and the withdrawal is potentially the worst in all of pharmacology. People have died during a Xanax withdrawal
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,660
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Staff at one of the world’s largest investment companies now have to get special approval if they want to hire a white man, rather than a woman or an ethnic minority candidate
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1457337470337617924?s=20

    Grotesque. I would vote for Trump over this
    Because you are a twat.

    A brief view of the details says that they can hire whomever they want but must show that they have also interviewed other candidates who are female, black, etc.
    By *this* I meant the whole of Woke, with the above being merely the latest example

    It edges close to outright racism against white people. In fact I would say it has crossed the line, big time. And it is anti male, anti feminist, and crazy

    As I say, if I were an American and given the choice between Wokeness and Trump, I might go for Trump

    Hopefully the Republicans can see sense and offer America a better choice than Trump. If they do they will sweep to victory
    Let's face it Leon, you're just desperate to vote for Trump.
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Very good COVID stats again today. England cases down significantly compared to last week, R value of around 0.7 and falling.

    As with yesterday, I'm at a loss to explain why cases are dropping so fast other than the nation crossing the herd immunity threshold for all age groups.

    Well quite. With zero npi really, and life pretty as normal, and into the depth of autumn, to see cases fall points to herd immunity being reached. And when you get there, cases can suddenly start to fall away, as in the kids right now.
    Indeed, and what gives me the cautious optimism is the real time Google mobility data I saw on Friday which shows more people are travelling into city centres on public transport and spending more time indoors than they were three weeks ago when cases were at the autumn peak. There hasn't been any behavioural change driving this and anecdotally there are fewer people wearing masks indoors than I've ever noticed.
    I still find it interesting though that London is such an outlier. It could of course be HIT being met earlier, but there is still a hell of a lot WfH going on, particularly in the Public Sector. At least two days a week i'm regularly the only person in an office of 70 odd. And anecdotally i've heard there are increasing concerns about levels of productivity (that held up pretty well in the first year of the pandemic) such that there is increasing urgency to get people back in greater numbers.
    It's almost certainly herd immunity in London, the first wave in London was absolutely devastating, just mostly unrecorded. The vaccination level is also a lot higher than the dashboard implies, maybe even higher than using the ONS as a denominator.
    If it’s anything like what happened out here, the point at which herd immunity is reached is like hitting the proverbial brick wall.



    Today, 70 cases from 250k tests of a 10m population. It’s as good as over.
    Another example would be Florida, which went form a 7 day average of 21,000 at the start of September, to 1,500 now, and the lowest 7 day average per million of any US state.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/
  • Options
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Staff at one of the world’s largest investment companies now have to get special approval if they want to hire a white man, rather than a woman or an ethnic minority candidate
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1457337470337617924?s=20

    Grotesque. I would vote for Trump over this
    Because you are a twat.

    A brief view of the details says that they can hire whomever they want but must show that they have also interviewed other candidates who are female, black, etc.
    By *this* I meant the whole of Woke, with the above being merely the latest example

    It edges close to outright racism against white people. In fact I would say it has crossed the line, big time. And it is anti male, anti feminist, and crazy

    As I say, if I were an American and given the choice between Wokeness and Trump, I might go for Trump

    Hopefully the Republicans can see sense and offer America a better choice than Trump. If they do they will sweep to victory
    Bolleaux.

    They (State Street) are just ensuring everyone gets a fair chance.

    You can write long, involved posts about woke/political correctness gone mad/nothing much at all but them's the facts.
    We shall see, I reckon the American voters have had enough, and they will kick this bullshit into touch, every opportunity they can, and it is ultimately a disaster for the Left.

    The only thing preventing the Republicans winning every election until 2030 is Trump
    You are probably right but, and this is the ironic part, State Street will not be doing this to further the revolution; they will probably be happy if it does cause a thousand year GOP hegemony, but because diverse teams have been shown to perform better than homogenous ones, being less prone to groupthink and more open to insights from left-field (whatever that means).
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    edited November 2021

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Very good COVID stats again today. England cases down significantly compared to last week, R value of around 0.7 and falling.

    As with yesterday, I'm at a loss to explain why cases are dropping so fast other than the nation crossing the herd immunity threshold for all age groups.

    Well, if that is the explanation that would be very good news indeed.

    Certainly it isn't easy to explain the near 50% drop in cases among teenagers just by half term.
    Have you had vaccinations at your school yet?
    We finally had some.

    Amazingly, this time they turned up - good start - then found they had forgotten the actual fecking vaccines. So they had to go back to fetch them.

    Cue frantic emailing and rewriting of schedules and lessons on the fly...and only 50% done.

    I was tempted to get on the grand piano and play the theme from The Goodies at them...
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,111

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Staff at one of the world’s largest investment companies now have to get special approval if they want to hire a white man, rather than a woman or an ethnic minority candidate
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1457337470337617924?s=20

    Grotesque. I would vote for Trump over this
    Because you are a twat.

    A brief view of the details says that they can hire whomever they want but must show that they have also interviewed other candidates who are female, black, etc.
    By *this* I meant the whole of Woke, with the above being merely the latest example

    It edges close to outright racism against white people. In fact I would say it has crossed the line, big time. And it is anti male, anti feminist, and crazy

    As I say, if I were an American and given the choice between Wokeness and Trump, I might go for Trump

    Hopefully the Republicans can see sense and offer America a better choice than Trump. If they do they will sweep to victory
    Let's face it Leon, you're just desperate to vote for Trump.
    Then the Left would be mad to indulge the Id of people like me
  • Options
    alex_ said:

    maaarsh said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Staff at one of the world’s largest investment companies now have to get special approval if they want to hire a white man, rather than a woman or an ethnic minority candidate
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1457337470337617924?s=20

    Grotesque. I would vote for Trump over this

    Bruno Maçães
    @MacaesBruno
    ·
    26m
    Incredible to think very serious people were discussing the Russian collusion idea every day for years, then we find out it was all false but everyone has moved on without being in any way troubled by any of it
    Macaes is a Trumpist. And it wasn't "all false", and certainly not the Russian interference aspect. There was even a GOP committee that investigated and produced a damning report on it FGS! The extent to which the Trump campaign was involved is uncertain.
    "The extent to which the Trump campaign was involved is uncertain" = from the mullet down
  • Options

    I assume the by election will be next year now

    Sunday Times says just before Xmas, so the Labour turn out is shit.

    Seems an old fashioned approach - i.e. the blue collar voters can't afford a car you know, so wont vote on a wet and cold December afternoon etc etc.

    Same reasoning behind expecting a winter 2023 general election, rather than waiting for 2024.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Very good COVID stats again today. England cases down significantly compared to last week, R value of around 0.7 and falling.

    As with yesterday, I'm at a loss to explain why cases are dropping so fast other than the nation crossing the herd immunity threshold for all age groups.

    Well, if that is the explanation that would be very good news indeed.

    Certainly it isn't easy to explain the near 50% drop in cases among teenagers just by half term.
    Have you had vaccinations at your school yet?
    We finally had some.

    Amazingly, this time they turned up - good start - then found they had forgotten the actual fecking vaccines. So they had to go back to fetch them.

    Cue frantic emailing and rewriting of schedules and lessons on the fly...and only 50% done.

    I was tempted to get on the grand piano and play the theme from The Goodies at them...
    Ours was originally supposed to done in one day, but only a fraction of the expected nurses turned up. Friday was the catch up day, but they seem to have got everybody now.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,137
    Noticed Sir Kier giving big props to Sir John on Marr. Maybe a defection is in the offing. Or not.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Very good COVID stats again today. England cases down significantly compared to last week, R value of around 0.7 and falling.

    As with yesterday, I'm at a loss to explain why cases are dropping so fast other than the nation crossing the herd immunity threshold for all age groups.

    Well, if that is the explanation that would be very good news indeed.

    Certainly it isn't easy to explain the near 50% drop in cases among teenagers just by half term.
    Have you had vaccinations at your school yet?
    We finally had some.

    Amazingly, this time they turned up - good start - then found they had forgotten the actual fecking vaccines. So they had to go back to fetch them.

    Cue frantic emailing and rewriting of schedules and lessons on the fly...and only 50% done.

    I was tempted to get on the grand piano and play the theme from The Goodies at them...
    Ours was originally supposed to done in one day, but only a fraction of the expected nurses turned up. Friday was the catch up day, but they seem to have got everybody now.
    Anecdotally, I don't get the feeling this rollout in schools is proving a dazzling success so far.

    Hopefully it will not prove costly.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    DougSeal said:

    Noticed Sir Kier giving big props to Sir John on Marr. Maybe a defection is in the offing. Or not.

    Hmmm. Seems unlikely. Why he would want to give up being party leader to serve under Johnson?
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    edited November 2021
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Very good COVID stats again today. England cases down significantly compared to last week, R value of around 0.7 and falling.

    As with yesterday, I'm at a loss to explain why cases are dropping so fast other than the nation crossing the herd immunity threshold for all age groups.

    Well, if that is the explanation that would be very good news indeed.

    Certainly it isn't easy to explain the near 50% drop in cases among teenagers just by half term.
    Have you had vaccinations at your school yet?
    We finally had some.

    Amazingly, this time they turned up - good start - then found they had forgotten the actual fecking vaccines. So they had to go back to fetch them.

    Cue frantic emailing and rewriting of schedules and lessons on the fly...and only 50% done.

    I was tempted to get on the grand piano and play the theme from The Goodies at them...
    Ours was originally supposed to done in one day, but only a fraction of the expected nurses turned up. Friday was the catch up day, but they seem to have got everybody now.
    Anecdotally, I don't get the feeling this rollout in schools is proving a dazzling success so far.

    Hopefully it will not prove costly.
    I agree, and hope the same thing.

    Edit to add:
    Having said that, I wonder if the fall in numbers of cases shows the school vaccinations finally having an effect.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    To make it entirely clear, I am not down because Labour isn't in Government, I am down because of other mental health issues and the bet I had placed I was just hoping might give me some temporary happiness. I am seeking help

    This may be trite advice, but focusing on physical things that you can control can be an effective way to bring psychological things that seem beyond control into some kind of order. Eat healthily, get some exercise, regularise sleep patterns, etc.
    +1 for this.

    Get outside and enjoy the outside world. I have found this, personally, very helpful in the past.
    Fuck that - I think the best advice to give CHB is to ask for benzos from his phychiastrist. Benzos cheer everyone up.
    Benzos is really BAD advice, especially Xanax, unless they are literally staving off suicidality

    A Benzo/xanax habit is seriously dangerous for someone with pre-existent mental health issues
    Oh and there you go proving yourself slightly less twattish.
    "Fuck that - I think the best advice to give CHB is to ask for benzos from his phychiastrist."

    Is this a serious comment or just drunk Sunday evening bollx?

    a) Good luck with a psychiatrist getting benzos beyond an immediate crisis of two weeks.

    b) Benzos are for anxiety not "cheering" you up. You may feel less depressed because you are less anxious but that's not the same thing.

    c) Even more good luck getting Xanax via NHS, which as an institution has decided, wisely or not, to not go down the US route with this very high strength tablet.



    Xanax - Alprazolam - is a wonderful drug. A proper high. Unfortunately the addictive potential is enormous, and the withdrawal is potentially the worst in all of pharmacology. People have died during a Xanax withdrawal
    Yep.

    "Alprazolam tablets are not prescribable in NHS primary care." - BNF


    So you need to get to hospital out patients level before it is even a possibility.
  • Options
    On Xanax, I have read of US cases where the patient literally died of a seizure on way to hospital to get more tablets.

    The half life is a nightmare.

    Sadly, I believe the kids are buying them over the Internet for partying.

  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited November 2021
    BigRich said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Very good COVID stats again today. England cases down significantly compared to last week, R value of around 0.7 and falling.

    As with yesterday, I'm at a loss to explain why cases are dropping so fast other than the nation crossing the herd immunity threshold for all age groups.

    Well quite. With zero npi really, and life pretty as normal, and into the depth of autumn, to see cases fall points to herd immunity being reached. And when you get there, cases can suddenly start to fall away, as in the kids right now.
    Indeed, and what gives me the cautious optimism is the real time Google mobility data I saw on Friday which shows more people are travelling into city centres on public transport and spending more time indoors than they were three weeks ago when cases were at the autumn peak. There hasn't been any behavioural change driving this and anecdotally there are fewer people wearing masks indoors than I've ever noticed.
    I still find it interesting though that London is such an outlier. It could of course be HIT being met earlier, but there is still a hell of a lot WfH going on, particularly in the Public Sector. At least two days a week i'm regularly the only person in an office of 70 odd. And anecdotally i've heard there are increasing concerns about levels of productivity (that held up pretty well in the first year of the pandemic) such that there is increasing urgency to get people back in greater numbers.
    It's almost certainly herd immunity in London, the first wave in London was absolutely devastating, just mostly unrecorded. The vaccination level is also a lot higher than the dashboard implies, maybe even higher than using the ONS as a denominator.
    If it’s anything like what happened out here, the point at which herd immunity is reached is like hitting the proverbial brick wall.



    Today, 70 cases from 250k tests of a 10m population. It’s as good as over.
    Another example would be Florida, which went form a 7 day average of 21,000 at the start of September, to 1,500 now, and the lowest 7 day average per million of any US state.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/
    Florida's numbers are very opaque, so i wouldn't trust them a jot. They only report once a week and you can't pick them up off that site. Their deaths numbers are still rising pretty rapidly (their "per million" figure has risen from 2744 to 2803 in the last two weeks which is, in UK terms, equivalent to around 2k per week i think). The way they do it they give the impression their numbers are miniscule (all you ever see is a handful of deaths in the "daily deaths" column), which is clearly very misleading.

    They also appear to have put an anti-vax witch doctor in charge of their public health system.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Very good COVID stats again today. England cases down significantly compared to last week, R value of around 0.7 and falling.

    As with yesterday, I'm at a loss to explain why cases are dropping so fast other than the nation crossing the herd immunity threshold for all age groups.

    Well, if that is the explanation that would be very good news indeed.

    Certainly it isn't easy to explain the near 50% drop in cases among teenagers just by half term.
    Have you had vaccinations at your school yet?
    We finally had some.

    Amazingly, this time they turned up - good start - then found they had forgotten the actual fecking vaccines. So they had to go back to fetch them.

    Cue frantic emailing and rewriting of schedules and lessons on the fly...and only 50% done.

    I was tempted to get on the grand piano and play the theme from The Goodies at them...
    Ours was originally supposed to done in one day, but only a fraction of the expected nurses turned up. Friday was the catch up day, but they seem to have got everybody now.
    Anecdotally, I don't get the feeling this rollout in schools is proving a dazzling success so far.

    Hopefully it will not prove costly.
    I agree, and hope the same thing.

    Edit to add:
    Having said that, I wonder if the fall in numbers of cases shows the school vaccinations finally having an effect.
    I think it unlikely given the numbers I'm hearing, although it may be part of it. More likely the virus is running out of uninfected people.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,177
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Very good COVID stats again today. England cases down significantly compared to last week, R value of around 0.7 and falling.

    As with yesterday, I'm at a loss to explain why cases are dropping so fast other than the nation crossing the herd immunity threshold for all age groups.

    Well, if that is the explanation that would be very good news indeed.

    Certainly it isn't easy to explain the near 50% drop in cases among teenagers just by half term.
    Have you had vaccinations at your school yet?
    We finally had some.

    Amazingly, this time they turned up - good start - then found they had forgotten the actual fecking vaccines. So they had to go back to fetch them.

    Cue frantic emailing and rewriting of schedules and lessons on the fly...and only 50% done.

    I was tempted to get on the grand piano and play the theme from The Goodies at them...
    Ours was originally supposed to done in one day, but only a fraction of the expected nurses turned up. Friday was the catch up day, but they seem to have got everybody now.
    Anecdotally, I don't get the feeling this rollout in schools is proving a dazzling success so far.

    Hopefully it will not prove costly.
    It won’t be costly as all the kids have had Covid by now...
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056
    Leon said:

    Talking of Woke and - in Britain - the particular example of the Trans-TERF wars, where Britain has it worse than anyone else, coincidentally this evening I had my first really intense discussion of the issue: with my one and only Trans friend, who is in her late 50s, who transitioned in her 30s

    She is one of my oldest friends. We met at UCL nearly 40 years back! Used to be super male (snooker and football) became a woman in the late 1990s, after a rigorous procedure. I went to visit her in Charing X hospital just after her operation

    She is fiercely against the militant Trans Activists. Hates the discord, rancour and threats against J K Rowling etc, thinks the horror show is setting back the cause "decades" (her precise word).

    She says: "I never menstruated. I never grew up as a girl. I am different to a biological woman, that is just a fact."

    Pretty powerful

    It's the difference between seeing it as a question of exercising your free will to do what you want with your body, and believing that your physical body is some kind of imposition that you are 'assigned' at birth but that has no relation to your self.

    The ideology leads to things like this where a mother is desperately trying to brainwash her 4-year-old son into believing he has the wrong body.

    https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1456698253735444483
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    I assume the by election will be next year now

    Sunday Times says just before Xmas, so the Labour turn out is shit.

    Seems an old fashioned approach - i.e. the blue collar voters can't afford a car you know, so wont vote on a wet and cold December afternoon etc etc.

    The 2019 election in December did not seem to dampen the turnout
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Very good COVID stats again today. England cases down significantly compared to last week, R value of around 0.7 and falling.

    As with yesterday, I'm at a loss to explain why cases are dropping so fast other than the nation crossing the herd immunity threshold for all age groups.

    Well, if that is the explanation that would be very good news indeed.

    Certainly it isn't easy to explain the near 50% drop in cases among teenagers just by half term.
    Have you had vaccinations at your school yet?
    We finally had some.

    Amazingly, this time they turned up - good start - then found they had forgotten the actual fecking vaccines. So they had to go back to fetch them.

    Cue frantic emailing and rewriting of schedules and lessons on the fly...and only 50% done.

    I was tempted to get on the grand piano and play the theme from The Goodies at them...
    Ours was originally supposed to done in one day, but only a fraction of the expected nurses turned up. Friday was the catch up day, but they seem to have got everybody now.
    Anecdotally, I don't get the feeling this rollout in schools is proving a dazzling success so far.

    Hopefully it will not prove costly.
    I agree, and hope the same thing.

    Edit to add:
    Having said that, I wonder if the fall in numbers of cases shows the school vaccinations finally having an effect.
    I think it unlikely given the numbers I'm hearing, although it may be part of it. More likely the virus is running out of uninfected people.
    Some estimates suggest that 80% of children have had the virus, so the vaccination programme is basically irrelevant.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,111

    Leon said:

    Talking of Woke and - in Britain - the particular example of the Trans-TERF wars, where Britain has it worse than anyone else, coincidentally this evening I had my first really intense discussion of the issue: with my one and only Trans friend, who is in her late 50s, who transitioned in her 30s

    She is one of my oldest friends. We met at UCL nearly 40 years back! Used to be super male (snooker and football) became a woman in the late 1990s, after a rigorous procedure. I went to visit her in Charing X hospital just after her operation

    She is fiercely against the militant Trans Activists. Hates the discord, rancour and threats against J K Rowling etc, thinks the horror show is setting back the cause "decades" (her precise word).

    She says: "I never menstruated. I never grew up as a girl. I am different to a biological woman, that is just a fact."

    Pretty powerful

    It's the difference between seeing it as a question of exercising your free will to do what you want with your body, and believing that your physical body is some kind of imposition that you are 'assigned' at birth but that has no relation to your self.

    The ideology leads to things like this where a mother is desperately trying to brainwash her 4-year-old son into believing he has the wrong body.

    https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1456698253735444483
    My god. Is that video real?

    That is, absolutely, child abuse. That's as bad as kiddle fiddling by Jimmy Savile. Arguably it is worse, in some ways. Destroying a brain that young
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    Bottas is having an absolute shocker today, isn't he? It couldn't have gone worse.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Very good COVID stats again today. England cases down significantly compared to last week, R value of around 0.7 and falling.

    As with yesterday, I'm at a loss to explain why cases are dropping so fast other than the nation crossing the herd immunity threshold for all age groups.

    Well, if that is the explanation that would be very good news indeed.

    Certainly it isn't easy to explain the near 50% drop in cases among teenagers just by half term.
    Have you had vaccinations at your school yet?
    We finally had some.

    Amazingly, this time they turned up - good start - then found they had forgotten the actual fecking vaccines. So they had to go back to fetch them.

    Cue frantic emailing and rewriting of schedules and lessons on the fly...and only 50% done.

    I was tempted to get on the grand piano and play the theme from The Goodies at them...
    Ours was originally supposed to done in one day, but only a fraction of the expected nurses turned up. Friday was the catch up day, but they seem to have got everybody now.
    Anecdotally, I don't get the feeling this rollout in schools is proving a dazzling success so far.

    Hopefully it will not prove costly.
    I agree, and hope the same thing.

    Edit to add:
    Having said that, I wonder if the fall in numbers of cases shows the school vaccinations finally having an effect.
    I think it unlikely given the numbers I'm hearing, although it may be part of it. More likely the virus is running out of uninfected people.
    Some estimates suggest that 80% of children have had the virus, so the vaccination programme is basically irrelevant.
    Surely it would heighten their immunity and make them less likely to become reinfected? That's not a negligible gain in itself.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,859
    Just seen Marr what a useless nonentity Starmer is.

    Attacking sleaze you need to be squeaky clean Lab isnt

    Moron
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191

    Just seen Marr what a useless nonentity Starmer is.

    Attacking sleaze you need to be squeaky clean Lab isnt

    Moron

    If he defected to the Tories would you vote Labour again?
  • Options

    Just seen Marr what a useless nonentity Starmer is.

    Attacking sleaze you need to be squeaky clean Lab isnt

    Moron

    Glad to see Jezbollah cultists supporting Tory corruption. There's been quite a few of you lot on it on Twitter.

    Piss funny.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,177
    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Very good COVID stats again today. England cases down significantly compared to last week, R value of around 0.7 and falling.

    As with yesterday, I'm at a loss to explain why cases are dropping so fast other than the nation crossing the herd immunity threshold for all age groups.

    Well, if that is the explanation that would be very good news indeed.

    Certainly it isn't easy to explain the near 50% drop in cases among teenagers just by half term.
    Have you had vaccinations at your school yet?
    We finally had some.

    Amazingly, this time they turned up - good start - then found they had forgotten the actual fecking vaccines. So they had to go back to fetch them.

    Cue frantic emailing and rewriting of schedules and lessons on the fly...and only 50% done.

    I was tempted to get on the grand piano and play the theme from The Goodies at them...
    Ours was originally supposed to done in one day, but only a fraction of the expected nurses turned up. Friday was the catch up day, but they seem to have got everybody now.
    Anecdotally, I don't get the feeling this rollout in schools is proving a dazzling success so far.

    Hopefully it will not prove costly.
    I agree, and hope the same thing.

    Edit to add:
    Having said that, I wonder if the fall in numbers of cases shows the school vaccinations finally having an effect.
    I think it unlikely given the numbers I'm hearing, although it may be part of it. More likely the virus is running out of uninfected people.
    Some estimates suggest that 80% of children have had the virus, so the vaccination programme is basically irrelevant.
    Surely it would heighten their immunity and make them less likely to become reinfected? That's not a negligible gain in itself.
    Re-infection is likely minimal for kids, but getting a vaccine after initial infection is no issue. And getting as many as possible covered either way is going to choke the source of cases pretty fast. The cases in the 30-50 age group have certainly come from their kids in the main.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    Bottas is having an absolute shocker today, isn't he? It couldn't have gone worse.

    Arse can't race. gets stuck behind everyone despite the car. Sauber are losing Kimi who overtakes as a hobby and replacing him with Arse. Not the best move.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    edited November 2021
    Four years of Trump didn't stop any of these naughty meanie woke types, but make him dictator for life anyway!
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited November 2021
    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Very good COVID stats again today. England cases down significantly compared to last week, R value of around 0.7 and falling.

    As with yesterday, I'm at a loss to explain why cases are dropping so fast other than the nation crossing the herd immunity threshold for all age groups.

    Well, if that is the explanation that would be very good news indeed.

    Certainly it isn't easy to explain the near 50% drop in cases among teenagers just by half term.
    Have you had vaccinations at your school yet?
    We finally had some.

    Amazingly, this time they turned up - good start - then found they had forgotten the actual fecking vaccines. So they had to go back to fetch them.

    Cue frantic emailing and rewriting of schedules and lessons on the fly...and only 50% done.

    I was tempted to get on the grand piano and play the theme from The Goodies at them...
    Ours was originally supposed to done in one day, but only a fraction of the expected nurses turned up. Friday was the catch up day, but they seem to have got everybody now.
    Anecdotally, I don't get the feeling this rollout in schools is proving a dazzling success so far.

    Hopefully it will not prove costly.
    I agree, and hope the same thing.

    Edit to add:
    Having said that, I wonder if the fall in numbers of cases shows the school vaccinations finally having an effect.
    I think it unlikely given the numbers I'm hearing, although it may be part of it. More likely the virus is running out of uninfected people.
    Some estimates suggest that 80% of children have had the virus, so the vaccination programme is basically irrelevant.
    Surely it would heighten their immunity and make them less likely to become reinfected? That's not a negligible gain in itself.
    There is a bit of an unspoken issue around all this. Governments in general seem desperate to discourage the belief in 'natural immunity', presumably because it undermines vaccination campaigns (why they would do this depends on how conspiratorial you are). But they also say that levels of re-infection are believed to be "negligible" (hence for example government report only includes people who test positive for the first time - so report no re-infections). These two positions do not align.

    If there were substantial levels of reinfection of course, then the current government reporting of cases is potentially massively understated.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    Just seen Marr what a useless nonentity Starmer is.

    Attacking sleaze you need to be squeaky clean Lab isnt

    Moron

    If he defected to the Tories would you vote Labour again?
    I thought BJO had defected to the Tories. Only by voting for the Tories can he bring about True Socialism or some bollox.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,660
    ydoethur said:

    Just seen Marr what a useless nonentity Starmer is.

    Attacking sleaze you need to be squeaky clean Lab isnt

    Moron

    If he defected to the Tories would you vote Labour again?
    I thought BJO was the one defecting to the Tories?
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,859

    Just seen Marr what a useless nonentity Starmer is.

    Attacking sleaze you need to be squeaky clean Lab isnt

    Moron

    Glad to see Jezbollah cultists supporting Tory corruption. There's been quite a few of you lot on it on Twitter.

    Piss funny.
    Not supporting Tory corruption but "THEYRE ALL THE SAME" is back big time.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    TOPPING said:

    What is everyone doing on here and not watching The Cruel Sea on iPlayer.

    That would require a TV license, so I'm stuck with you lot instead :neutral:
  • Options
    TOPPING said:

    Interesting part of The Cruel Sea when in order to destroy a suspected U-boat they had to kill some British troops also.

    Today no doubt the ship's captain would be subject to criminal charges.

    Watched it yesterday afternoon, I'd forgotten how much of it revolves around what we'd now call PTSD. My latest crackpot theory is that much if not most 20thC art relating to war centers on their perception of PSTD.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    ydoethur said:

    Just seen Marr what a useless nonentity Starmer is.

    Attacking sleaze you need to be squeaky clean Lab isnt

    Moron

    If he defected to the Tories would you vote Labour again?
    I thought BJO had defected to the Tories. Only by voting for the Tories can he bring about True Socialism or some bollox.
    ???

    BJO defecting to the Tories? Has the world gone mad? What next - Malc defecting to the LibDems?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191

    ydoethur said:

    Just seen Marr what a useless nonentity Starmer is.

    Attacking sleaze you need to be squeaky clean Lab isnt

    Moron

    If he defected to the Tories would you vote Labour again?
    I thought BJO was the one defecting to the Tories?
    Well, yes, but if as hinted upthread Starmer is laying the groundwork to follow, would BJO go back?

    I don't think it very likely. A serving party leader hasn't crossed the floor since 1931.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,208
    edited November 2021
    ydoethur said:

    Just seen Marr what a useless nonentity Starmer is.

    Attacking sleaze you need to be squeaky clean Lab isnt

    Moron

    If he defected to the Tories would you vote Labour again?
    I don't get why the Cult hate Starmer so much. If he was Blair it would be war to end all wars on Corbyn and fellows - certainly as far as policy goes and positions in party, but Starmer isn't like that.

    As the recent documentary highlighted.

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191

    ydoethur said:

    Just seen Marr what a useless nonentity Starmer is.

    Attacking sleaze you need to be squeaky clean Lab isnt

    Moron

    If he defected to the Tories would you vote Labour again?
    I don't get why the Cult hate Starmer so much. If he was Blair it would be war to end all wars on Corbyn and fellows, but Starmer isn't like that.

    As the recent documentary highlighted.

    Because he has not been a slave to the Corbyn cult. Nor has he shown starry-eyed hero worship for the Great Man.

    It's that easy, I think.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just seen Marr what a useless nonentity Starmer is.

    Attacking sleaze you need to be squeaky clean Lab isnt

    Moron

    If he defected to the Tories would you vote Labour again?
    I thought BJO had defected to the Tories. Only by voting for the Tories can he bring about True Socialism or some bollox.
    ???

    BJO defecting to the Tories? Has the world gone mad? What next - Malc defecting to the LibDems?
    Can you make sandals out of turnips?
This discussion has been closed.