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Last stop before the midterms: Virginia 2021 – politicalbetting.com

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  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,145

    MattW said:

    ping said:

    Just been shopping at ALDI. Noticeably more missing items, compared to usual.

    I'm due at Aldi at 8pm, when it's dark. Will see.

    No shortages last time, but they did admit to juggling some items.
    Shop at Aldi under cover of darkness, then make a big show of unloading the Waitrose carrier bags from your car when you get home?
    Why would I have a Waitrose carrier bag? Grrr.

    Closest W is about 18 miles (except for the sandwich shop on the motorway.)

    That's even further away than the closest Lib Dem Councillor.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,914
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Real value on backing Brighton to win at Anfield 40/1 over on Betfair.

    I'm on them to win 4-2 :wink:
    Hope you've got 500/1 for that. Brighton to score 3 in the last half hour???
    It's just a joke. A back reference to my bet on Man U to beat Liverpool by that score that turned out to be somewhat less than prescient.
    But that's in its own special way extremely impressive. To go for 5/0 and it turns out 0/5 takes a hell of a lot of doing. Being wrong is ten a penny, being utterly and diametrically wrong, that's something else. Many never manage it.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,605

    I'm sad

    Get the cricket on!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,279

    I'm sad

    What would cheer you up? Drinks with friends? A lady? Sunshine?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,507
    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Real value on backing Brighton to win at Anfield 40/1 over on Betfair.

    I'm on them to win 4-2 :wink:
    Hope you've got 500/1 for that. Brighton to score 3 in the last half hour???
    It's just a joke. A back reference to my bet on Man U to beat Liverpool by that score that turned out to be somewhat less than prescient.
    But that's in its own special way extremely impressive. To go for 5/0 and it turns out 0/5 takes a hell of a lot of doing. Being wrong is ten a penny, being utterly and diametrically wrong, that's something else. Many never manage it.
    It wasn’t quite that, his bet was 4-2 to Utd. Still a big ‘turnaround’
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,640
    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Real value on backing Brighton to win at Anfield 40/1 over on Betfair.

    I'm on them to win 4-2 :wink:
    Hope you've got 500/1 for that. Brighton to score 3 in the last half hour???
    It's just a joke. A back reference to my bet on Man U to beat Liverpool by that score that turned out to be somewhat less than prescient.
    But that's in its own special way extremely impressive. To go for 5/0 and it turns out 0/5 takes a hell of a lot of doing. Being wrong is ten a penny, being utterly and diametrically wrong, that's something else. Many never manage it.
    I went for 4-2, not 5-0. I was "only" 7 goals off!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433
    edited October 2021
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    A better second half from the convicts, 126 the target, which still seems about 30 short of where it could have been.

    England fans the happy ones in the stadium at half time.

    The stadium atmos seems a bit lacklustre on the telly. Is it better there?

    I'm still well jel. I'd love to be there in the warmth, with a cold beer!
    General admission areas are packed and having a party, great atmosphere here.

    Lots of no-shows in the sponsors and hospitality though, probably Indians and Pakistanis who went to that match and will go to the final. Shame.

    Am now in a long queue for the bar!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,145
    edited October 2021
    ..
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    A better second half from the convicts, 126 the target, which still seems about 30 short of where it could have been.

    England fans the happy ones in the stadium at half time.

    The stadium atmos seems a bit lacklustre on the telly. Is it better there?

    I'm still well jel. I'd love to be there in the warmth, with a cold beer!
    General admission areas are packed and having a party, great atmosphere here.

    Lots of no-shows in the sponsors and hospitality though, probably Indians and Pakistanis who went to that match and will go to the final. Shame.

    Am now in a long queue for the bar!
    Ah. Good to hear. Enjoy!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,230
    7/4 Newcastle to be relegated looks value to me.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,507
    MattW said:

    ..

    All I’m thinking is that 6-12 nano metres is a bit tight...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,914
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    BigRich said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Oh God, here it comes. Flower of Scotland

    How did Scotland end up with this terrible dirge? It makes God Save the Queen look like Men of Harlech

    They could have gone for Sunshine on Leith. Wonderful song

    The First Big Weekend by Arab Strap.
    There is a tendency for nations to choose dutiful, pompous dirges when they have superb popular melodies

    How did Australia end up with Advance Australia Fair when they could have had Waltzing Matilda, which, when sung by 100,000 Aussies in a Melbourne stadium sends shivers down the spine. The official anthem, to be polite, does not

    Ditto Ireland with that awful Ireland Ireland anthem, when they had Molly Malone in the wings

    Advance Australia Fair is terrible, but still leaps ahead of the dirge that is GSTQ.

    The problem for me with Waltzing Matilda is as a teenager when down under, it was the dirty lyrics that got stuck in my head. Which kind of makes it hard to take seriously after that.

    Waltzing Matilda
    Who bloody killed her?
    Lying in the grass
    With her finger up her arse
    The Fijian anthem when the men’s rugby sevens team sang it at the Olympics was just magnificent
    God Save the Queen is OK. It has the advantage of being short, memorable, easy to sing, and modestly rousing - SEND HER VICTORIOUS

    But it is no masterpiece. There are many better anthems

    When you think of the songs we could have had, from Jerusalem to Land of Hope and Glory to Rule Britannia to Hey Jude to the very greatest song of all, Bohemian Rhapsody

    Which I see has now been adopted as a kind of global anthem (helped by Green Day). Makes yer praaaad


    America:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdDimyd6cj4


    Argentina:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfCcYxMhq5w


    Canada:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A6Pp_kqTqE

    There's a hundred of these, from Mexico to Croatia, Italy to Poland


    But the best remains the famous one in Hyde Park

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZnBNuqqz5g
    Those are amazing I had not seen them before!

    Lets hope with the end of COVID we can have more of that type of stuff.
    This also happened at my niece's wedding in Rhodes, Greece, in 2019 (sob, it all seems so innocent and far away now).

    During the dinner someone started singing Bohemian Rhapsody and then half the entire wedding party joined in and we carried it all the way to end, word perfect. It is a miraculous song in its ability to do that, over 6 minutes. It is partly because it is so varied, and also because it has three or four moments of very different ecstasy. That makes it easy to remember and sing, somehow, and it is always moving when sung with passion
    Not quite on the same level but I remember during the height of Britp going to a pub in Sheffield and a guy started playing the Oasis song Don’t look back in Anger on the piano and most of the pub joined in. It still remains a really happy memory.
    That was the song that wrapped up Our Friends In The North, as Craig walked over the Tyne bridge. Why has that series never been repeated? Seems odd.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,914
    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Real value on backing Brighton to win at Anfield 40/1 over on Betfair.

    I'm on them to win 4-2 :wink:
    Hope you've got 500/1 for that. Brighton to score 3 in the last half hour???
    It's just a joke. A back reference to my bet on Man U to beat Liverpool by that score that turned out to be somewhat less than prescient.
    But that's in its own special way extremely impressive. To go for 5/0 and it turns out 0/5 takes a hell of a lot of doing. Being wrong is ten a penny, being utterly and diametrically wrong, that's something else. Many never manage it.
    I went for 4-2, not 5-0. I was "only" 7 goals off!
    Ah. Still a great effort though.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,678
    Meeting on the sidelines of the #G20RomeSummit: Germany, the U.S., France & the U.K. highlight growing concerns over Iran’s nuclear program and call for the return to full compliance with the Vienna agreement. Joint Statement (in German): https://bundesregierung.de/breg-de/aktuelles/gemeinsame-erklaerung-frankreichs-deutschlands-des-vereinigten-koenigreichs-und-der-vereinigten-staaten-zum-iranischen-nuklearprogramm-1973608 #JCPOA #G20Italy

    https://twitter.com/germanyintheeu/status/1454470572646223873?s=20
  • Palace 2 up v City
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,732
    dixiedean said:

    7/4 Newcastle to be relegated looks value to me.

    Newcastle for the chop?

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433
    What does Betfair say about England’s chance of making the runs? I’d say they should be 1.25-1.33.
  • Palace 2 up v City

    Its a really weird coincidence that all of the Top 3 title contenders clubs are playing at 3pm with none of their fixtures televised this weekend. That doesn't happen very often.

    Sounds like good results for Chelsea.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 8,304

    Aslan said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MattW said:

    kjh said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    RobD said:

    kjh said:

    Brilliant, both @CarlottaVance and @boulay detailed analysis re the French case is 'they don't have one' as opposed to them not finding out whether they actually do have a case or not.

    And we get ridiculous responses of 'well you should have kept your log book for a boat you stopped owning up to 5 years ago'

    How many people here keep their car registration details of a car they sold years ago and I assume a log book goes with the boat and is a more substantial document. Actually I don't know that but do you Carlotta or Boulay?

    This is just nationalist nonsense; we are right because we are British and the Foreigner's are wrong. None of us here know the facts.

    How is that a ridiculous response? You're expected to keep tax records for seven years, IIRC.
    Well I answered that.

    a) The log book probably goes with the boat.

    b) Do you keep your old car records?

    c) Is there a requirement to keep records of a boat you have sold?

    And of course this was just one example of how people arguing here have no idea what the French case is. They just assume they are in the wrong. They may be. They may not. It is bizarre though to just assume they don't have a case.
    I’m no expert on fishing, but if I wanted to sell, for example, an aeroplane or a classic racing car, there are sure as hell protocols and discussions around documentation that are worked through at the time of sale. Some documents will remain with the vehicle, others remain with the original owner, and others with various authorities and third parties, setting out everyone’s future rights and obligations.

    Why would a fishing boat be any different? If he’s selling his boat for scrap and upgrading to a new vessel, he’ll want to keep the fishing rights associated with it. If he’s selling his boat to another fisherman, and upgrading to a new boat, there will need to be an agreement between the buyer, seller and fishing authorities, as to future fishing rights of the two boats. The buyer (and his lawyer) sure as hell wants to know if he’s buying a boat, or buying fishing rights.
    Also (and here I do confess ignorance) if you need the old log book, why not just go and get it, and borrow it from the new owner? Then make a copy? Nip round St Malo, use your phonecam, Le Bingo

    How hard is that? Or have these boats all weirdly disappeared to Papeete?
    This sort of 'papers please' pettyfogging mentality led to the Windrush scandal and to countless other injustices over the piece. There could be valid reasons why the fisherfolk can't produce the exact docs required per the exact wording of some form or other. Agreements need to be implemented according to their spirit not simply their letter. It's a myth put about by jobbing lawyers that they don't. Are we behaving well here? Or are we nitpicking? I honestly don't know and I'm pretty skeptical of anybody who says they do - unless they write a really good post explaining why France has no case PLUS they say without caveat that Johnson is being a dick on the NI protocol. This is the magic combo, weighty looking post slagging off Macron on the fish plus demonstrated intellectual integrity. That'd nail it for me. I could get off the wheel and have some cheese.
    This sort of attitude @kinabalu will get you deported, at least. For simply suggesting there might just be two sides to an argument I have been told I hate my country.
    I think calling "papers, please" pettufogging is fascinating and revealing rhetoric.

    So, then, we should not have to have an Insurance Certificate or an MOT Cert for our cars, and just be allowed to drive in them by asserting that we do have the paperwork?

    I'm incline to ask @kinabalu to turn up at the local airport to pilot the next passenger flight out, and see if harrumphing about checks on "papers", rather than providing any, suffices for getting into the cockpit.

    Licenses are important in this case, because it is a license to make a livelihood, and it is in the ratified agreement that historic evidence of participation is required. It is notable that the local French fishermen based near Jersey are amongst those asserting that the ones not issued licenses do not have a history of participation.

    That's all, really.
    The French fishermen are in exactly the position of people who could not demonstrate lost earnings for COVID purposes because they had been working cash in hand. Hoist with their own
    That's exactly right. If there were good arguments for the absence of records, the French would be making them. But there aren't so instead they are trying to turn this into an abstract argument about punishing perfidious Albion.
    I wonder if the situation is something like this -

    - Previously enforcement was a slack on small boats. They just did their thing.
    - When Brexit came in, the new rules are actually being enforced.
    - A number of people who didn't actually have the fishing rights, or had them and didn't exercise them are now being asked to sign up to formal licensing and have got a bit stuck.

    I am reminded of the following - before Brexit, you could bring in pretty much unlimited amount of wine from France, as long as it was for personal use. Customs and Excise fought a long and losing battle to stop this.

    Post Brexit, they introduced small personal allowances and enforced them.

    Certain small UK wine dealers were used to drive a transit van over to see their mates in the various vineyards and coming back with multiple metric tons of high end wine. Which they could then sell at a keen price, with an increased profit.

    This trade has now come to a screeching halt.

    Unfair, or proper license enforcement? They were certainly abusing the "for personal use" provisions.
    Proper licence enforcement in both cases. The issue is not that the laws are now being enforced but that they were not before. Don't pass laws that you either cannot or choose not to enforce.
    Totally agreed. If a law doesn't need to be enforced, it shouldn't be the law.

    Otherwise you're just giving a competitive advantage to whoever is prepared to break the law.
    More dangerously to my mind you are giving the authorities licence to pick and choose how and when they enforce it to serve their own ends.
    Although I agree with the point you make there Richard I don't agree with your original point of not passing laws you choose not to enforce, although I see how one might lead to the other.

    With the exception of road traffic laws which the Police do tend to enforce according to their own judgement (wisely usually) we do have a habit otherwise of enforcing laws in this country (a jobs worth attitude) regardless of the circumstances and where common sense should prevail. This has the downside of making it difficult to pass effective laws so some potentially good laws don't get passed because of all the potential exceptions and also laws being enforced when clearly it wasn't meant for a particular purpose. A good example might be the metrication rules for shops which should be obeyed by supermarkets, but if a market stallholder wants to sell in pounds and ounces, then fine. I mean who are they harming?

    I have experienced the common sense approach by traffic cops on 3 occasions and the nonsense of a parking fine for doing the right thing but not complying with a technicality whereas if I had done the wrong thing, the technicality wouldn't have been needed and I would have been fine, but the rules are the rules.

    And just to annoy @MaxPB because he obviously think I am some raving Francophile I think the French are far better at this than us. Plenty of rules that are just waived when not necessary.
  • Sandpit said:

    What does Betfair say about England’s chance of making the runs? I’d say they should be 1.25-1.33.

    1.14
  • Sandpit said:

    What does Betfair say about England’s chance of making the runs? I’d say they should be 1.25-1.33.

    1.14-1.15
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,507
    Anyone else missing the hundred’s style graphics here?

    Thought not.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,640
    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Real value on backing Brighton to win at Anfield 40/1 over on Betfair.

    I'm on them to win 4-2 :wink:
    Hope you've got 500/1 for that. Brighton to score 3 in the last half hour???
    It's just a joke. A back reference to my bet on Man U to beat Liverpool by that score that turned out to be somewhat less than prescient.
    But that's in its own special way extremely impressive. To go for 5/0 and it turns out 0/5 takes a hell of a lot of doing. Being wrong is ten a penny, being utterly and diametrically wrong, that's something else. Many never manage it.
    I went for 4-2, not 5-0. I was "only" 7 goals off!
    Ah. Still a great effort though.
    It sounds bad when you look at it that way, but if you think it's like predicting 3-0 and it ends 0-4 then...

    it's still really bad, isn't it?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,230

    Palace 2 up v City

    Its a really weird coincidence that all of the Top 3 title contenders clubs are playing at 3pm with none of their fixtures televised this weekend. That doesn't happen very often.

    Sounds like good results for Chelsea.
    But they will be televised.
    Abroad where the money is.
  • I'm sad

    What would cheer you up? Drinks with friends? A lady? Sunshine?
    Yes, please!

    Actually, sun is shining for first time in days and just had coffee with a friend. Now all I need is a hot date!!!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,732
    kjh said:

    Aslan said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MattW said:

    kjh said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    RobD said:

    kjh said:

    Brilliant, both @CarlottaVance and @boulay detailed analysis re the French case is 'they don't have one' as opposed to them not finding out whether they actually do have a case or not.

    And we get ridiculous responses of 'well you should have kept your log book for a boat you stopped owning up to 5 years ago'

    How many people here keep their car registration details of a car they sold years ago and I assume a log book goes with the boat and is a more substantial document. Actually I don't know that but do you Carlotta or Boulay?

    This is just nationalist nonsense; we are right because we are British and the Foreigner's are wrong. None of us here know the facts.

    How is that a ridiculous response? You're expected to keep tax records for seven years, IIRC.
    Well I answered that.

    a) The log book probably goes with the boat.

    b) Do you keep your old car records?

    c) Is there a requirement to keep records of a boat you have sold?

    And of course this was just one example of how people arguing here have no idea what the French case is. They just assume they are in the wrong. They may be. They may not. It is bizarre though to just assume they don't have a case.
    I’m no expert on fishing, but if I wanted to sell, for example, an aeroplane or a classic racing car, there are sure as hell protocols and discussions around documentation that are worked through at the time of sale. Some documents will remain with the vehicle, others remain with the original owner, and others with various authorities and third parties, setting out everyone’s future rights and obligations.

    Why would a fishing boat be any different? If he’s selling his boat for scrap and upgrading to a new vessel, he’ll want to keep the fishing rights associated with it. If he’s selling his boat to another fisherman, and upgrading to a new boat, there will need to be an agreement between the buyer, seller and fishing authorities, as to future fishing rights of the two boats. The buyer (and his lawyer) sure as hell wants to know if he’s buying a boat, or buying fishing rights.
    Also (and here I do confess ignorance) if you need the old log book, why not just go and get it, and borrow it from the new owner? Then make a copy? Nip round St Malo, use your phonecam, Le Bingo

    How hard is that? Or have these boats all weirdly disappeared to Papeete?
    This sort of 'papers please' pettyfogging mentality led to the Windrush scandal and to countless other injustices over the piece. There could be valid reasons why the fisherfolk can't produce the exact docs required per the exact wording of some form or other. Agreements need to be implemented according to their spirit not simply their letter. It's a myth put about by jobbing lawyers that they don't. Are we behaving well here? Or are we nitpicking? I honestly don't know and I'm pretty skeptical of anybody who says they do - unless they write a really good post explaining why France has no case PLUS they say without caveat that Johnson is being a dick on the NI protocol. This is the magic combo, weighty looking post slagging off Macron on the fish plus demonstrated intellectual integrity. That'd nail it for me. I could get off the wheel and have some cheese.
    This sort of attitude @kinabalu will get you deported, at least. For simply suggesting there might just be two sides to an argument I have been told I hate my country.
    I think calling "papers, please" pettufogging is fascinating and revealing rhetoric.

    So, then, we should not have to have an Insurance Certificate or an MOT Cert for our cars, and just be allowed to drive in them by asserting that we do have the paperwork?

    I'm incline to ask @kinabalu to turn up at the local airport to pilot the next passenger flight out, and see if harrumphing about checks on "papers", rather than providing any, suffices for getting into the cockpit.

    Licenses are important in this case, because it is a license to make a livelihood, and it is in the ratified agreement that historic evidence of participation is required. It is notable that the local French fishermen based near Jersey are amongst those asserting that the ones not issued licenses do not have a history of participation.

    That's all, really.
    The French fishermen are in exactly the position of people who could not demonstrate lost earnings for COVID purposes because they had been working cash in hand. Hoist with their own
    That's exactly right. If there were good arguments for the absence of records, the French would be making them. But there aren't so instead they are trying to turn this into an abstract argument about punishing perfidious Albion.
    I wonder if the situation is something like this -

    - Previously enforcement was a slack on small boats. They just did their thing.
    - When Brexit came in, the new rules are actually being enforced.
    - A number of people who didn't actually have the fishing rights, or had them and didn't exercise them are now being asked to sign up to formal licensing and have got a bit stuck.

    I am reminded of the following - before Brexit, you could bring in pretty much unlimited amount of wine from France, as long as it was for personal use. Customs and Excise fought a long and losing battle to stop this.

    Post Brexit, they introduced small personal allowances and enforced them.

    Certain small UK wine dealers were used to drive a transit van over to see their mates in the various vineyards and coming back with multiple metric tons of high end wine. Which they could then sell at a keen price, with an increased profit.

    This trade has now come to a screeching halt.

    Unfair, or proper license enforcement? They were certainly abusing the "for personal use" provisions.
    Proper licence enforcement in both cases. The issue is not that the laws are now being enforced but that they were not before. Don't pass laws that you either cannot or choose not to enforce.
    Totally agreed. If a law doesn't need to be enforced, it shouldn't be the law.

    Otherwise you're just giving a competitive advantage to whoever is prepared to break the law.
    More dangerously to my mind you are giving the authorities licence to pick and choose how and when they enforce it to serve their own ends.
    Although I agree with the point you make there Richard I don't agree with your original point of not passing laws you choose not to enforce, although I see how one might lead to the other.

    With the exception of road traffic laws which the Police do tend to enforce according to their own judgement (wisely usually) we do have a habit otherwise of enforcing laws in this country (a jobs worth attitude) regardless of the circumstances and where common sense should prevail. This has the downside of making it difficult to pass effective laws so some potentially good laws don't get passed because of all the potential exceptions and also laws being enforced when clearly it wasn't meant for a particular purpose. A good example might be the metrication rules for shops which should be obeyed by supermarkets, but if a market stallholder wants to sell in pounds and ounces, then fine. I mean who are they harming?

    I have experienced the common sense approach by traffic cops on 3 occasions and the nonsense of a parking fine for doing the right thing but not complying with a technicality whereas if I had done the wrong thing, the technicality wouldn't have been needed and I would have been fine, but the rules are the rules.

    And just to annoy @MaxPB because he obviously think I am some raving Francophile I think the French are far better at this than us. Plenty of rules that are just waived when not necessary.
    Drug laws are often ignored by the police.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484
    kinabalu said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    BigRich said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Oh God, here it comes. Flower of Scotland

    How did Scotland end up with this terrible dirge? It makes God Save the Queen look like Men of Harlech

    They could have gone for Sunshine on Leith. Wonderful song

    The First Big Weekend by Arab Strap.
    There is a tendency for nations to choose dutiful, pompous dirges when they have superb popular melodies

    How did Australia end up with Advance Australia Fair when they could have had Waltzing Matilda, which, when sung by 100,000 Aussies in a Melbourne stadium sends shivers down the spine. The official anthem, to be polite, does not

    Ditto Ireland with that awful Ireland Ireland anthem, when they had Molly Malone in the wings

    Advance Australia Fair is terrible, but still leaps ahead of the dirge that is GSTQ.

    The problem for me with Waltzing Matilda is as a teenager when down under, it was the dirty lyrics that got stuck in my head. Which kind of makes it hard to take seriously after that.

    Waltzing Matilda
    Who bloody killed her?
    Lying in the grass
    With her finger up her arse
    The Fijian anthem when the men’s rugby sevens team sang it at the Olympics was just magnificent
    God Save the Queen is OK. It has the advantage of being short, memorable, easy to sing, and modestly rousing - SEND HER VICTORIOUS

    But it is no masterpiece. There are many better anthems

    When you think of the songs we could have had, from Jerusalem to Land of Hope and Glory to Rule Britannia to Hey Jude to the very greatest song of all, Bohemian Rhapsody

    Which I see has now been adopted as a kind of global anthem (helped by Green Day). Makes yer praaaad


    America:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdDimyd6cj4


    Argentina:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfCcYxMhq5w


    Canada:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A6Pp_kqTqE

    There's a hundred of these, from Mexico to Croatia, Italy to Poland


    But the best remains the famous one in Hyde Park

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZnBNuqqz5g
    Those are amazing I had not seen them before!

    Lets hope with the end of COVID we can have more of that type of stuff.
    This also happened at my niece's wedding in Rhodes, Greece, in 2019 (sob, it all seems so innocent and far away now).

    During the dinner someone started singing Bohemian Rhapsody and then half the entire wedding party joined in and we carried it all the way to end, word perfect. It is a miraculous song in its ability to do that, over 6 minutes. It is partly because it is so varied, and also because it has three or four moments of very different ecstasy. That makes it easy to remember and sing, somehow, and it is always moving when sung with passion
    Not quite on the same level but I remember during the height of Britp going to a pub in Sheffield and a guy started playing the Oasis song Don’t look back in Anger on the piano and most of the pub joined in. It still remains a really happy memory.
    That was the song that wrapped up Our Friends In The North, as Craig walked over the Tyne bridge. Why has that series never been repeated? Seems odd.
    Oasis were not the greatest band, but at least they pumped out a few great singalong anthems.

    Possibly the last British band to do that? What will kids today and tomorrow sing along to?

    It is a great failure of modern pop music. it no longer produces anthems that define the age and capture your youth - as far as I can tell
  • I'm lonely

    Why old chap? You have plenty of friends here, I am sure we can help you along. You might be alone but that is no reason to be lonely.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433

    Sandpit said:

    What does Betfair say about England’s chance of making the runs? I’d say they should be 1.25-1.33.

    1.14
    Back the bowlers at that price!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,145

    Clément Beaune is saying that unless Britain makes a "significant gesture" by Tuesday they will start preventing British boats from landing and implementing a go slow for processing British goods.

    https://twitter.com/CBeaune/status/1454441755575824384

    Brussels may have something to say quietly about that.

    The EU is a process-obsessed bureaucracy, and they do not like their own countries breaking their treaties.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What does Betfair say about England’s chance of making the runs? I’d say they should be 1.25-1.33.

    1.14
    Back the bowlers at that price!
    No thanks!

    Down to 1.09 already now.
  • kjh said:

    Aslan said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MattW said:

    kjh said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    RobD said:

    kjh said:

    Brilliant, both @CarlottaVance and @boulay detailed analysis re the French case is 'they don't have one' as opposed to them not finding out whether they actually do have a case or not.

    And we get ridiculous responses of 'well you should have kept your log book for a boat you stopped owning up to 5 years ago'

    How many people here keep their car registration details of a car they sold years ago and I assume a log book goes with the boat and is a more substantial document. Actually I don't know that but do you Carlotta or Boulay?

    This is just nationalist nonsense; we are right because we are British and the Foreigner's are wrong. None of us here know the facts.

    How is that a ridiculous response? You're expected to keep tax records for seven years, IIRC.
    Well I answered that.

    a) The log book probably goes with the boat.

    b) Do you keep your old car records?

    c) Is there a requirement to keep records of a boat you have sold?

    And of course this was just one example of how people arguing here have no idea what the French case is. They just assume they are in the wrong. They may be. They may not. It is bizarre though to just assume they don't have a case.
    I’m no expert on fishing, but if I wanted to sell, for example, an aeroplane or a classic racing car, there are sure as hell protocols and discussions around documentation that are worked through at the time of sale. Some documents will remain with the vehicle, others remain with the original owner, and others with various authorities and third parties, setting out everyone’s future rights and obligations.

    Why would a fishing boat be any different? If he’s selling his boat for scrap and upgrading to a new vessel, he’ll want to keep the fishing rights associated with it. If he’s selling his boat to another fisherman, and upgrading to a new boat, there will need to be an agreement between the buyer, seller and fishing authorities, as to future fishing rights of the two boats. The buyer (and his lawyer) sure as hell wants to know if he’s buying a boat, or buying fishing rights.
    Also (and here I do confess ignorance) if you need the old log book, why not just go and get it, and borrow it from the new owner? Then make a copy? Nip round St Malo, use your phonecam, Le Bingo

    How hard is that? Or have these boats all weirdly disappeared to Papeete?
    This sort of 'papers please' pettyfogging mentality led to the Windrush scandal and to countless other injustices over the piece. There could be valid reasons why the fisherfolk can't produce the exact docs required per the exact wording of some form or other. Agreements need to be implemented according to their spirit not simply their letter. It's a myth put about by jobbing lawyers that they don't. Are we behaving well here? Or are we nitpicking? I honestly don't know and I'm pretty skeptical of anybody who says they do - unless they write a really good post explaining why France has no case PLUS they say without caveat that Johnson is being a dick on the NI protocol. This is the magic combo, weighty looking post slagging off Macron on the fish plus demonstrated intellectual integrity. That'd nail it for me. I could get off the wheel and have some cheese.
    This sort of attitude @kinabalu will get you deported, at least. For simply suggesting there might just be two sides to an argument I have been told I hate my country.
    I think calling "papers, please" pettufogging is fascinating and revealing rhetoric.

    So, then, we should not have to have an Insurance Certificate or an MOT Cert for our cars, and just be allowed to drive in them by asserting that we do have the paperwork?

    I'm incline to ask @kinabalu to turn up at the local airport to pilot the next passenger flight out, and see if harrumphing about checks on "papers", rather than providing any, suffices for getting into the cockpit.

    Licenses are important in this case, because it is a license to make a livelihood, and it is in the ratified agreement that historic evidence of participation is required. It is notable that the local French fishermen based near Jersey are amongst those asserting that the ones not issued licenses do not have a history of participation.

    That's all, really.
    The French fishermen are in exactly the position of people who could not demonstrate lost earnings for COVID purposes because they had been working cash in hand. Hoist with their own
    That's exactly right. If there were good arguments for the absence of records, the French would be making them. But there aren't so instead they are trying to turn this into an abstract argument about punishing perfidious Albion.
    I wonder if the situation is something like this -

    - Previously enforcement was a slack on small boats. They just did their thing.
    - When Brexit came in, the new rules are actually being enforced.
    - A number of people who didn't actually have the fishing rights, or had them and didn't exercise them are now being asked to sign up to formal licensing and have got a bit stuck.

    I am reminded of the following - before Brexit, you could bring in pretty much unlimited amount of wine from France, as long as it was for personal use. Customs and Excise fought a long and losing battle to stop this.

    Post Brexit, they introduced small personal allowances and enforced them.

    Certain small UK wine dealers were used to drive a transit van over to see their mates in the various vineyards and coming back with multiple metric tons of high end wine. Which they could then sell at a keen price, with an increased profit.

    This trade has now come to a screeching halt.

    Unfair, or proper license enforcement? They were certainly abusing the "for personal use" provisions.
    Proper licence enforcement in both cases. The issue is not that the laws are now being enforced but that they were not before. Don't pass laws that you either cannot or choose not to enforce.
    Totally agreed. If a law doesn't need to be enforced, it shouldn't be the law.

    Otherwise you're just giving a competitive advantage to whoever is prepared to break the law.
    More dangerously to my mind you are giving the authorities licence to pick and choose how and when they enforce it to serve their own ends.
    Although I agree with the point you make there Richard I don't agree with your original point of not passing laws you choose not to enforce, although I see how one might lead to the other.

    With the exception of road traffic laws which the Police do tend to enforce according to their own judgement (wisely usually) we do have a habit otherwise of enforcing laws in this country (a jobs worth attitude) regardless of the circumstances and where common sense should prevail. This has the downside of making it difficult to pass effective laws so some potentially good laws don't get passed because of all the potential exceptions and also laws being enforced when clearly it wasn't meant for a particular purpose. A good example might be the metrication rules for shops which should be obeyed by supermarkets, but if a market stallholder wants to sell in pounds and ounces, then fine. I mean who are they harming?

    I have experienced the common sense approach by traffic cops on 3 occasions and the nonsense of a parking fine for doing the right thing but not complying with a technicality whereas if I had done the wrong thing, the technicality wouldn't have been needed and I would have been fine, but the rules are the rules.

    And just to annoy @MaxPB because he obviously think I am some raving Francophile I think the French are far better at this than us. Plenty of rules that are just waived when not necessary.
    Having laws that are enforced at the whim of the police is a recipe for discrimination and corruption.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What does Betfair say about England’s chance of making the runs? I’d say they should be 1.25-1.33.

    1.14
    Back the bowlers at that price!
    No thanks!

    Down to 1.09 already now.
    Ha, that’s what a couple of quick 4s does!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,678
    Fun video - US diplomats sample Scottish cuisine ahead of COP26:

    Before we head to Scotland next week, we thought we'd get together and try some of the local cuisine... #COP26Glasgow

    https://twitter.com/USAmbUK/status/1454404931763462144?s=20
  • kjh said:

    Aslan said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MattW said:

    kjh said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    RobD said:

    kjh said:

    Brilliant, both @CarlottaVance and @boulay detailed analysis re the French case is 'they don't have one' as opposed to them not finding out whether they actually do have a case or not.

    And we get ridiculous responses of 'well you should have kept your log book for a boat you stopped owning up to 5 years ago'

    How many people here keep their car registration details of a car they sold years ago and I assume a log book goes with the boat and is a more substantial document. Actually I don't know that but do you Carlotta or Boulay?

    This is just nationalist nonsense; we are right because we are British and the Foreigner's are wrong. None of us here know the facts.

    How is that a ridiculous response? You're expected to keep tax records for seven years, IIRC.
    Well I answered that.

    a) The log book probably goes with the boat.

    b) Do you keep your old car records?

    c) Is there a requirement to keep records of a boat you have sold?

    And of course this was just one example of how people arguing here have no idea what the French case is. They just assume they are in the wrong. They may be. They may not. It is bizarre though to just assume they don't have a case.
    I’m no expert on fishing, but if I wanted to sell, for example, an aeroplane or a classic racing car, there are sure as hell protocols and discussions around documentation that are worked through at the time of sale. Some documents will remain with the vehicle, others remain with the original owner, and others with various authorities and third parties, setting out everyone’s future rights and obligations.

    Why would a fishing boat be any different? If he’s selling his boat for scrap and upgrading to a new vessel, he’ll want to keep the fishing rights associated with it. If he’s selling his boat to another fisherman, and upgrading to a new boat, there will need to be an agreement between the buyer, seller and fishing authorities, as to future fishing rights of the two boats. The buyer (and his lawyer) sure as hell wants to know if he’s buying a boat, or buying fishing rights.
    Also (and here I do confess ignorance) if you need the old log book, why not just go and get it, and borrow it from the new owner? Then make a copy? Nip round St Malo, use your phonecam, Le Bingo

    How hard is that? Or have these boats all weirdly disappeared to Papeete?
    This sort of 'papers please' pettyfogging mentality led to the Windrush scandal and to countless other injustices over the piece. There could be valid reasons why the fisherfolk can't produce the exact docs required per the exact wording of some form or other. Agreements need to be implemented according to their spirit not simply their letter. It's a myth put about by jobbing lawyers that they don't. Are we behaving well here? Or are we nitpicking? I honestly don't know and I'm pretty skeptical of anybody who says they do - unless they write a really good post explaining why France has no case PLUS they say without caveat that Johnson is being a dick on the NI protocol. This is the magic combo, weighty looking post slagging off Macron on the fish plus demonstrated intellectual integrity. That'd nail it for me. I could get off the wheel and have some cheese.
    This sort of attitude @kinabalu will get you deported, at least. For simply suggesting there might just be two sides to an argument I have been told I hate my country.
    I think calling "papers, please" pettufogging is fascinating and revealing rhetoric.

    So, then, we should not have to have an Insurance Certificate or an MOT Cert for our cars, and just be allowed to drive in them by asserting that we do have the paperwork?

    I'm incline to ask @kinabalu to turn up at the local airport to pilot the next passenger flight out, and see if harrumphing about checks on "papers", rather than providing any, suffices for getting into the cockpit.

    Licenses are important in this case, because it is a license to make a livelihood, and it is in the ratified agreement that historic evidence of participation is required. It is notable that the local French fishermen based near Jersey are amongst those asserting that the ones not issued licenses do not have a history of participation.

    That's all, really.
    The French fishermen are in exactly the position of people who could not demonstrate lost earnings for COVID purposes because they had been working cash in hand. Hoist with their own
    That's exactly right. If there were good arguments for the absence of records, the French would be making them. But there aren't so instead they are trying to turn this into an abstract argument about punishing perfidious Albion.
    I wonder if the situation is something like this -

    - Previously enforcement was a slack on small boats. They just did their thing.
    - When Brexit came in, the new rules are actually being enforced.
    - A number of people who didn't actually have the fishing rights, or had them and didn't exercise them are now being asked to sign up to formal licensing and have got a bit stuck.

    I am reminded of the following - before Brexit, you could bring in pretty much unlimited amount of wine from France, as long as it was for personal use. Customs and Excise fought a long and losing battle to stop this.

    Post Brexit, they introduced small personal allowances and enforced them.

    Certain small UK wine dealers were used to drive a transit van over to see their mates in the various vineyards and coming back with multiple metric tons of high end wine. Which they could then sell at a keen price, with an increased profit.

    This trade has now come to a screeching halt.

    Unfair, or proper license enforcement? They were certainly abusing the "for personal use" provisions.
    Proper licence enforcement in both cases. The issue is not that the laws are now being enforced but that they were not before. Don't pass laws that you either cannot or choose not to enforce.
    Totally agreed. If a law doesn't need to be enforced, it shouldn't be the law.

    Otherwise you're just giving a competitive advantage to whoever is prepared to break the law.
    More dangerously to my mind you are giving the authorities licence to pick and choose how and when they enforce it to serve their own ends.
    Although I agree with the point you make there Richard I don't agree with your original point of not passing laws you choose not to enforce, although I see how one might lead to the other.

    With the exception of road traffic laws which the Police do tend to enforce according to their own judgement (wisely usually) we do have a habit otherwise of enforcing laws in this country (a jobs worth attitude) regardless of the circumstances and where common sense should prevail. This has the downside of making it difficult to pass effective laws so some potentially good laws don't get passed because of all the potential exceptions and also laws being enforced when clearly it wasn't meant for a particular purpose. A good example might be the metrication rules for shops which should be obeyed by supermarkets, but if a market stallholder wants to sell in pounds and ounces, then fine. I mean who are they harming?

    I have experienced the common sense approach by traffic cops on 3 occasions and the nonsense of a parking fine for doing the right thing but not complying with a technicality whereas if I had done the wrong thing, the technicality wouldn't have been needed and I would have been fine, but the rules are the rules.

    And just to annoy @MaxPB because he obviously think I am some raving Francophile I think the French are far better at this than us. Plenty of rules that are just waived when not necessary.
    I would suggest that the point is that, for the example of metrication, it is not a law that should have been passed at all or enforced on anyone. But if it is passed then it should be enforced uniformly. That is not to say it should not be challenged or criticised. I am not talking of blind adherence to laws no matter how stupid they are. Only that those actually charged with enforcing them should do so without fear, without favour and without fail. It is for the courts and the jury to then subsequently decide if that law should stand or if there are mitigating circumstances. That I fully accept.

    As I said in the point you replied to. If you do not enforce laws uniformly then that opens up the possibility of laws being used by the authorities to persecute those who they dislike whilst those they agree with are allowed to break them. That in turn then becomes a means of coercive control whereby people are unclear about what they can and cannot do and so are prevented from doing things that are not actually illegal. A situation that obviously the authorities quite like.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,732
    MattW said:

    Clément Beaune is saying that unless Britain makes a "significant gesture" by Tuesday they will start preventing British boats from landing and implementing a go slow for processing British goods.

    https://twitter.com/CBeaune/status/1454441755575824384

    Brussels may have something to say quietly about that.

    The EU is a process-obsessed bureaucracy, and they do not like their own countries breaking their treaties.
    Or they may just want to wave the big stick. After all Article 16 permits reasonable counter measures, and they might feel it appropriate to demonstrate that.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,306
    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Clément Beaune is saying that unless Britain makes a "significant gesture" by Tuesday they will start preventing British boats from landing and implementing a go slow for processing British goods.

    https://twitter.com/CBeaune/status/1454441755575824384

    Brussels may have something to say quietly about that.

    The EU is a process-obsessed bureaucracy, and they do not like their own countries breaking their treaties.
    Or they may just want to wave the big stick. After all Article 16 permits reasonable counter measures, and they might feel it appropriate to demonstrate that.
    Err...

    - We haven't invoked Article 16
    - Article 16 says that countermeasures have to be "proportionate" and limited to what is "strictly necessary to remedy the imbalance"
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484
    Jersey offers a compromise. Two more permanent licenses, 18 more temporary - pending further evidence, -55 still refused


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-59077644


    The French would be well advised to back down, they've probably got enough to save face. If they continue with the blockade nonsense, Mon Dieu
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,914
    edited October 2021
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    BigRich said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Oh God, here it comes. Flower of Scotland

    How did Scotland end up with this terrible dirge? It makes God Save the Queen look like Men of Harlech

    They could have gone for Sunshine on Leith. Wonderful song

    The First Big Weekend by Arab Strap.
    There is a tendency for nations to choose dutiful, pompous dirges when they have superb popular melodies

    How did Australia end up with Advance Australia Fair when they could have had Waltzing Matilda, which, when sung by 100,000 Aussies in a Melbourne stadium sends shivers down the spine. The official anthem, to be polite, does not

    Ditto Ireland with that awful Ireland Ireland anthem, when they had Molly Malone in the wings

    Advance Australia Fair is terrible, but still leaps ahead of the dirge that is GSTQ.

    The problem for me with Waltzing Matilda is as a teenager when down under, it was the dirty lyrics that got stuck in my head. Which kind of makes it hard to take seriously after that.

    Waltzing Matilda
    Who bloody killed her?
    Lying in the grass
    With her finger up her arse
    The Fijian anthem when the men’s rugby sevens team sang it at the Olympics was just magnificent
    God Save the Queen is OK. It has the advantage of being short, memorable, easy to sing, and modestly rousing - SEND HER VICTORIOUS

    But it is no masterpiece. There are many better anthems

    When you think of the songs we could have had, from Jerusalem to Land of Hope and Glory to Rule Britannia to Hey Jude to the very greatest song of all, Bohemian Rhapsody

    Which I see has now been adopted as a kind of global anthem (helped by Green Day). Makes yer praaaad


    America:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdDimyd6cj4


    Argentina:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfCcYxMhq5w


    Canada:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A6Pp_kqTqE

    There's a hundred of these, from Mexico to Croatia, Italy to Poland


    But the best remains the famous one in Hyde Park

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZnBNuqqz5g
    Those are amazing I had not seen them before!

    Lets hope with the end of COVID we can have more of that type of stuff.
    This also happened at my niece's wedding in Rhodes, Greece, in 2019 (sob, it all seems so innocent and far away now).

    During the dinner someone started singing Bohemian Rhapsody and then half the entire wedding party joined in and we carried it all the way to end, word perfect. It is a miraculous song in its ability to do that, over 6 minutes. It is partly because it is so varied, and also because it has three or four moments of very different ecstasy. That makes it easy to remember and sing, somehow, and it is always moving when sung with passion
    Not quite on the same level but I remember during the height of Britp going to a pub in Sheffield and a guy started playing the Oasis song Don’t look back in Anger on the piano and most of the pub joined in. It still remains a really happy memory.
    That was the song that wrapped up Our Friends In The North, as Craig walked over the Tyne bridge. Why has that series never been repeated? Seems odd.
    Oasis were not the greatest band, but at least they pumped out a few great singalong anthems.

    Possibly the last British band to do that? What will kids today and tomorrow sing along to?

    It is a great failure of modern pop music. it no longer produces anthems that define the age and capture your youth - as far as I can tell
    I feel that but you have to allow the possibility it's that we lack the 2 things needed to know it - youth and then the looking back upon it. Oasis were derivative and samey and bombastic but they had weight.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 19,568

    I'm sad

    What would cheer you up? Drinks with friends? A lady? Sunshine?
    Are we doing a PB group therapy session this afternoon?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,732

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Clément Beaune is saying that unless Britain makes a "significant gesture" by Tuesday they will start preventing British boats from landing and implementing a go slow for processing British goods.

    https://twitter.com/CBeaune/status/1454441755575824384

    Brussels may have something to say quietly about that.

    The EU is a process-obsessed bureaucracy, and they do not like their own countries breaking their treaties.
    Or they may just want to wave the big stick. After all Article 16 permits reasonable counter measures, and they might feel it appropriate to demonstrate that.
    Err...

    - We haven't invoked Article 16
    - Article 16 says that countermeasures have to be "proportionate" and limited to what is "strictly necessary to remedy the imbalance"
    Yes, that is why it would be a wave of the stick, rather than a whack with it. That would come with Article 16.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 3,221
    GIN1138 said:

    I'm sad

    What would cheer you up? Drinks with friends? A lady? Sunshine?
    Are we doing a PB group therapy session this afternoon?
    That doesn't sound like such a bad idea. Should we compile a list of therapeutic activities for combatting miserablism, perhaps?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,306
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Clément Beaune is saying that unless Britain makes a "significant gesture" by Tuesday they will start preventing British boats from landing and implementing a go slow for processing British goods.

    https://twitter.com/CBeaune/status/1454441755575824384

    Brussels may have something to say quietly about that.

    The EU is a process-obsessed bureaucracy, and they do not like their own countries breaking their treaties.
    Or they may just want to wave the big stick. After all Article 16 permits reasonable counter measures, and they might feel it appropriate to demonstrate that.
    Err...

    - We haven't invoked Article 16
    - Article 16 says that countermeasures have to be "proportionate" and limited to what is "strictly necessary to remedy the imbalance"
    Yes, that is why it would be a wave of the stick, rather than a whack with it. That would come with Article 16.
    So you're predicting they will back down and accept the offer from Jersey?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433
    Maybe they’re just going to the bar, but quite a few green and gold shirts leaving the stands…
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,345
    edited October 2021
    Sky report just now had a Jersey fisherman say that if France closes the ports they land their fish at next tuesday he backs Boris in taking on France
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    BigRich said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Oh God, here it comes. Flower of Scotland

    How did Scotland end up with this terrible dirge? It makes God Save the Queen look like Men of Harlech

    They could have gone for Sunshine on Leith. Wonderful song

    The First Big Weekend by Arab Strap.
    There is a tendency for nations to choose dutiful, pompous dirges when they have superb popular melodies

    How did Australia end up with Advance Australia Fair when they could have had Waltzing Matilda, which, when sung by 100,000 Aussies in a Melbourne stadium sends shivers down the spine. The official anthem, to be polite, does not

    Ditto Ireland with that awful Ireland Ireland anthem, when they had Molly Malone in the wings

    Advance Australia Fair is terrible, but still leaps ahead of the dirge that is GSTQ.

    The problem for me with Waltzing Matilda is as a teenager when down under, it was the dirty lyrics that got stuck in my head. Which kind of makes it hard to take seriously after that.

    Waltzing Matilda
    Who bloody killed her?
    Lying in the grass
    With her finger up her arse
    The Fijian anthem when the men’s rugby sevens team sang it at the Olympics was just magnificent
    God Save the Queen is OK. It has the advantage of being short, memorable, easy to sing, and modestly rousing - SEND HER VICTORIOUS

    But it is no masterpiece. There are many better anthems

    When you think of the songs we could have had, from Jerusalem to Land of Hope and Glory to Rule Britannia to Hey Jude to the very greatest song of all, Bohemian Rhapsody

    Which I see has now been adopted as a kind of global anthem (helped by Green Day). Makes yer praaaad


    America:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdDimyd6cj4


    Argentina:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfCcYxMhq5w


    Canada:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A6Pp_kqTqE

    There's a hundred of these, from Mexico to Croatia, Italy to Poland


    But the best remains the famous one in Hyde Park

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZnBNuqqz5g
    Those are amazing I had not seen them before!

    Lets hope with the end of COVID we can have more of that type of stuff.
    This also happened at my niece's wedding in Rhodes, Greece, in 2019 (sob, it all seems so innocent and far away now).

    During the dinner someone started singing Bohemian Rhapsody and then half the entire wedding party joined in and we carried it all the way to end, word perfect. It is a miraculous song in its ability to do that, over 6 minutes. It is partly because it is so varied, and also because it has three or four moments of very different ecstasy. That makes it easy to remember and sing, somehow, and it is always moving when sung with passion
    Not quite on the same level but I remember during the height of Britp going to a pub in Sheffield and a guy started playing the Oasis song Don’t look back in Anger on the piano and most of the pub joined in. It still remains a really happy memory.
    That was the song that wrapped up Our Friends In The North, as Craig walked over the Tyne bridge. Why has that series never been repeated? Seems odd.
    Oasis were not the greatest band, but at least they pumped out a few great singalong anthems.

    Possibly the last British band to do that? What will kids today and tomorrow sing along to?

    It is a great failure of modern pop music. it no longer produces anthems that define the age and capture your youth - as far as I can tell
    I feel that but you have to allow the possibility it's that we lack the 2 things needed to know it - youth and then the looking back upon it. Oasis were derivative and samey and bombastic but they had weight.
    Indeed, however I have quite a few friends in their 20s and they report that this is true. When they want to sing along to a song, they have to go back many years, often to songs written well before they were born - like Bohemian Rhapsody

    There is no mass, shared music culture, any more, and modern music is not providing these communal moments.

    That's what I am told. anyhow

    Good Haka
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,732
    edited October 2021

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Clément Beaune is saying that unless Britain makes a "significant gesture" by Tuesday they will start preventing British boats from landing and implementing a go slow for processing British goods.

    https://twitter.com/CBeaune/status/1454441755575824384

    Brussels may have something to say quietly about that.

    The EU is a process-obsessed bureaucracy, and they do not like their own countries breaking their treaties.
    Or they may just want to wave the big stick. After all Article 16 permits reasonable counter measures, and they might feel it appropriate to demonstrate that.
    Err...

    - We haven't invoked Article 16
    - Article 16 says that countermeasures have to be "proportionate" and limited to what is "strictly necessary to remedy the imbalance"
    Yes, that is why it would be a wave of the stick, rather than a whack with it. That would come with Article 16.
    So you're predicting they will back down and accept the offer from Jersey?
    I have no idea what will happen, neither do I have any knowledge of the details of the fishing licences to say who is in the right or wrong.

    It is a pity though that we poisoned our relationship with our neighbours to this degree. It is like neighbours sueing each other over the height of a hedge and who cuts it. No one wins.
  • Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    BigRich said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Oh God, here it comes. Flower of Scotland

    How did Scotland end up with this terrible dirge? It makes God Save the Queen look like Men of Harlech

    They could have gone for Sunshine on Leith. Wonderful song

    The First Big Weekend by Arab Strap.
    There is a tendency for nations to choose dutiful, pompous dirges when they have superb popular melodies

    How did Australia end up with Advance Australia Fair when they could have had Waltzing Matilda, which, when sung by 100,000 Aussies in a Melbourne stadium sends shivers down the spine. The official anthem, to be polite, does not

    Ditto Ireland with that awful Ireland Ireland anthem, when they had Molly Malone in the wings

    Advance Australia Fair is terrible, but still leaps ahead of the dirge that is GSTQ.

    The problem for me with Waltzing Matilda is as a teenager when down under, it was the dirty lyrics that got stuck in my head. Which kind of makes it hard to take seriously after that.

    Waltzing Matilda
    Who bloody killed her?
    Lying in the grass
    With her finger up her arse
    The Fijian anthem when the men’s rugby sevens team sang it at the Olympics was just magnificent
    God Save the Queen is OK. It has the advantage of being short, memorable, easy to sing, and modestly rousing - SEND HER VICTORIOUS

    But it is no masterpiece. There are many better anthems

    When you think of the songs we could have had, from Jerusalem to Land of Hope and Glory to Rule Britannia to Hey Jude to the very greatest song of all, Bohemian Rhapsody

    Which I see has now been adopted as a kind of global anthem (helped by Green Day). Makes yer praaaad


    America:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdDimyd6cj4


    Argentina:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfCcYxMhq5w


    Canada:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A6Pp_kqTqE

    There's a hundred of these, from Mexico to Croatia, Italy to Poland


    But the best remains the famous one in Hyde Park

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZnBNuqqz5g
    Those are amazing I had not seen them before!

    Lets hope with the end of COVID we can have more of that type of stuff.
    This also happened at my niece's wedding in Rhodes, Greece, in 2019 (sob, it all seems so innocent and far away now).

    During the dinner someone started singing Bohemian Rhapsody and then half the entire wedding party joined in and we carried it all the way to end, word perfect. It is a miraculous song in its ability to do that, over 6 minutes. It is partly because it is so varied, and also because it has three or four moments of very different ecstasy. That makes it easy to remember and sing, somehow, and it is always moving when sung with passion
    Not quite on the same level but I remember during the height of Britp going to a pub in Sheffield and a guy started playing the Oasis song Don’t look back in Anger on the piano and most of the pub joined in. It still remains a really happy memory.
    That was the song that wrapped up Our Friends In The North, as Craig walked over the Tyne bridge. Why has that series never been repeated? Seems odd.
    Oasis were not the greatest band, but at least they pumped out a few great singalong anthems.

    Possibly the last British band to do that? What will kids today and tomorrow sing along to?

    It is a great failure of modern pop music. it no longer produces anthems that define the age and capture your youth - as far as I can tell
    I feel that but you have to allow the possibility it's that we lack the 2 things needed to know it - youth and then the looking back upon it. Oasis were derivative and samey and bombastic but they had weight.
    Indeed, however I have quite a few friends in their 20s and they report that this is true. When they want to sing along to a song, they have to go back many years, often to songs written well before they were born - like Bohemian Rhapsody

    There is no mass, shared music culture, any more, and modern music is not providing these communal moments.

    That's what I am told. anyhow

    Good Haka
    This is going to make me sound old but I genuinely don't think they make them like they did anymore.

    Think of the songs that are great singlealongs - things like Bohemian Rhapsody, Sweet Caroline, Summer of 69, Wonderwall etc - they were made decades apart but are all properly anthemic to sing along to.

    Singers like Ed Sheeran or Adelle or Beyonce just aren't anthemic in the same way.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Clément Beaune is saying that unless Britain makes a "significant gesture" by Tuesday they will start preventing British boats from landing and implementing a go slow for processing British goods.

    https://twitter.com/CBeaune/status/1454441755575824384

    Brussels may have something to say quietly about that.

    The EU is a process-obsessed bureaucracy, and they do not like their own countries breaking their treaties.
    Or they may just want to wave the big stick. After all Article 16 permits reasonable counter measures, and they might feel it appropriate to demonstrate that.
    Err...

    - We haven't invoked Article 16
    - Article 16 says that countermeasures have to be "proportionate" and limited to what is "strictly necessary to remedy the imbalance"
    Yes, that is why it would be a wave of the stick, rather than a whack with it. That would come with Article 16.
    So you're predicting they will back down and accept the offer from Jersey?
    I have no idea what will happen, neither do I have any knowledge of the details of the fishing licences to say who is in the right or wrong.

    It is a pity though that we poisoned our relationship with our neighbours to this degree. It is like neighbours sueing each other over the height of a hedge and who cuts it. No one wins.
    Maybe the neighbours need to grow up and accept we have left
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Clément Beaune is saying that unless Britain makes a "significant gesture" by Tuesday they will start preventing British boats from landing and implementing a go slow for processing British goods.

    https://twitter.com/CBeaune/status/1454441755575824384

    Brussels may have something to say quietly about that.

    The EU is a process-obsessed bureaucracy, and they do not like their own countries breaking their treaties.
    Or they may just want to wave the big stick. After all Article 16 permits reasonable counter measures, and they might feel it appropriate to demonstrate that.
    Err...

    - We haven't invoked Article 16
    - Article 16 says that countermeasures have to be "proportionate" and limited to what is "strictly necessary to remedy the imbalance"
    Yes, that is why it would be a wave of the stick, rather than a whack with it. That would come with Article 16.
    So you're predicting they will back down and accept the offer from Jersey?
    I have no idea what will happen, neither do I have any knowledge of the details of the fishing licences to say who is in the right or wrong.

    It is a pity though that we poisoned our relationship with our neighbours to this degree. It is like neighbours sueing each other over the height of a hedge and who cuts it. No one wins.
    The French have always done this though: think BSE or lamb, long before we voted for Brexit, let alone left.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,955
    Leon said:

    Jersey offers a compromise. Two more permanent licenses, 18 more temporary - pending further evidence, -55 still refused


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-59077644


    The French would be well advised to back down, they've probably got enough to save face. If they continue with the blockade nonsense, Mon Dieu

    Personally, I would cancel all the French fishing licenses and say 'fuck you'.

    But that's why I'm not in international statesman.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited October 2021
    What a way to bring the fifty up. Some great sixes in the England innings - this is how you play modern T20 cricket.

    And another.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 8,112

    I'm sad

    Has somebody hacked Horse? If so, why? This isn't Facebook.
    If this really is you putting out these little one line updates, @CorrectHorseBattery , why? Are you ok, and if not, is there anything you want to get off your chest?
    You are amongst friends, even if we disagree on some things. Chin up, old chap.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,568
    This is brutal
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,145
    Regarding Frost's thread, I see that he has used the symbol for Nanometres not Nautical Miles :smile: .


    2 We have been in talks with the EU Commission for weeks on fisheries licensing & have granted 98% of applications. We do so in good faith & are fully delivering on our TCA obligation - to license vessels which can prove they have actually fished previously in our 6-12nm


    Also separating UK and Jersey. Which was something the French Govt tried to do but did not manage.

    It's also really interesting that he is replying for UK licenses and threats which will affect the UK, in response to the French Govt threats, as he has no responsibility for licenses to fish in Jersey waters, which is the Jersey Govt.

    UK Govt is formally only responsible I think for being a communication channel to EU on behalf of Jersey.

    Lots of FBPE types ranting away about how *he* has done the things actually done by the Jersey Govt.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563
    Taz said:

    This is brutal

    You've got to feel a bit sorry for the Auss...actually, no I don't.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,038
    edited October 2021

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    BigRich said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Oh God, here it comes. Flower of Scotland

    How did Scotland end up with this terrible dirge? It makes God Save the Queen look like Men of Harlech

    They could have gone for Sunshine on Leith. Wonderful song

    The First Big Weekend by Arab Strap.
    There is a tendency for nations to choose dutiful, pompous dirges when they have superb popular melodies

    How did Australia end up with Advance Australia Fair when they could have had Waltzing Matilda, which, when sung by 100,000 Aussies in a Melbourne stadium sends shivers down the spine. The official anthem, to be polite, does not

    Ditto Ireland with that awful Ireland Ireland anthem, when they had Molly Malone in the wings

    Advance Australia Fair is terrible, but still leaps ahead of the dirge that is GSTQ.

    The problem for me with Waltzing Matilda is as a teenager when down under, it was the dirty lyrics that got stuck in my head. Which kind of makes it hard to take seriously after that.

    Waltzing Matilda
    Who bloody killed her?
    Lying in the grass
    With her finger up her arse
    The Fijian anthem when the men’s rugby sevens team sang it at the Olympics was just magnificent
    God Save the Queen is OK. It has the advantage of being short, memorable, easy to sing, and modestly rousing - SEND HER VICTORIOUS

    But it is no masterpiece. There are many better anthems

    When you think of the songs we could have had, from Jerusalem to Land of Hope and Glory to Rule Britannia to Hey Jude to the very greatest song of all, Bohemian Rhapsody

    Which I see has now been adopted as a kind of global anthem (helped by Green Day). Makes yer praaaad


    America:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdDimyd6cj4


    Argentina:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfCcYxMhq5w


    Canada:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A6Pp_kqTqE

    There's a hundred of these, from Mexico to Croatia, Italy to Poland


    But the best remains the famous one in Hyde Park

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZnBNuqqz5g
    Those are amazing I had not seen them before!

    Lets hope with the end of COVID we can have more of that type of stuff.
    This also happened at my niece's wedding in Rhodes, Greece, in 2019 (sob, it all seems so innocent and far away now).

    During the dinner someone started singing Bohemian Rhapsody and then half the entire wedding party joined in and we carried it all the way to end, word perfect. It is a miraculous song in its ability to do that, over 6 minutes. It is partly because it is so varied, and also because it has three or four moments of very different ecstasy. That makes it easy to remember and sing, somehow, and it is always moving when sung with passion
    Not quite on the same level but I remember during the height of Britp going to a pub in Sheffield and a guy started playing the Oasis song Don’t look back in Anger on the piano and most of the pub joined in. It still remains a really happy memory.
    That was the song that wrapped up Our Friends In The North, as Craig walked over the Tyne bridge. Why has that series never been repeated? Seems odd.
    Oasis were not the greatest band, but at least they pumped out a few great singalong anthems.

    Possibly the last British band to do that? What will kids today and tomorrow sing along to?

    It is a great failure of modern pop music. it no longer produces anthems that define the age and capture your youth - as far as I can tell
    I feel that but you have to allow the possibility it's that we lack the 2 things needed to know it - youth and then the looking back upon it. Oasis were derivative and samey and bombastic but they had weight.
    Indeed, however I have quite a few friends in their 20s and they report that this is true. When they want to sing along to a song, they have to go back many years, often to songs written well before they were born - like Bohemian Rhapsody

    There is no mass, shared music culture, any more, and modern music is not providing these communal moments.

    That's what I am told. anyhow

    Good Haka
    This is going to make me sound old but I genuinely don't think they make them like they did anymore.

    Think of the songs that are great singlealongs - things like Bohemian Rhapsody, Sweet Caroline, Summer of 69, Wonderwall etc - they were made decades apart but are all properly anthemic to sing along to.

    Singers like Ed Sheeran or Adelle or Beyonce just aren't anthemic in the same way.
    I know people try to, but no-one can properly sing along to Bohemian Rhapsody: the range is insane and only a vocal genius like Freddie Mercury or the tiny number of singers who can match what he could do can actually sing it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433
    Are we 1.01 yet?

    Say it quietly, but should England be tournament favourites?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,914

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    BigRich said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Oh God, here it comes. Flower of Scotland

    How did Scotland end up with this terrible dirge? It makes God Save the Queen look like Men of Harlech

    They could have gone for Sunshine on Leith. Wonderful song

    The First Big Weekend by Arab Strap.
    There is a tendency for nations to choose dutiful, pompous dirges when they have superb popular melodies

    How did Australia end up with Advance Australia Fair when they could have had Waltzing Matilda, which, when sung by 100,000 Aussies in a Melbourne stadium sends shivers down the spine. The official anthem, to be polite, does not

    Ditto Ireland with that awful Ireland Ireland anthem, when they had Molly Malone in the wings

    Advance Australia Fair is terrible, but still leaps ahead of the dirge that is GSTQ.

    The problem for me with Waltzing Matilda is as a teenager when down under, it was the dirty lyrics that got stuck in my head. Which kind of makes it hard to take seriously after that.

    Waltzing Matilda
    Who bloody killed her?
    Lying in the grass
    With her finger up her arse
    The Fijian anthem when the men’s rugby sevens team sang it at the Olympics was just magnificent
    God Save the Queen is OK. It has the advantage of being short, memorable, easy to sing, and modestly rousing - SEND HER VICTORIOUS

    But it is no masterpiece. There are many better anthems

    When you think of the songs we could have had, from Jerusalem to Land of Hope and Glory to Rule Britannia to Hey Jude to the very greatest song of all, Bohemian Rhapsody

    Which I see has now been adopted as a kind of global anthem (helped by Green Day). Makes yer praaaad


    America:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdDimyd6cj4


    Argentina:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfCcYxMhq5w


    Canada:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A6Pp_kqTqE

    There's a hundred of these, from Mexico to Croatia, Italy to Poland


    But the best remains the famous one in Hyde Park

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZnBNuqqz5g
    Those are amazing I had not seen them before!

    Lets hope with the end of COVID we can have more of that type of stuff.
    This also happened at my niece's wedding in Rhodes, Greece, in 2019 (sob, it all seems so innocent and far away now).

    During the dinner someone started singing Bohemian Rhapsody and then half the entire wedding party joined in and we carried it all the way to end, word perfect. It is a miraculous song in its ability to do that, over 6 minutes. It is partly because it is so varied, and also because it has three or four moments of very different ecstasy. That makes it easy to remember and sing, somehow, and it is always moving when sung with passion
    Not quite on the same level but I remember during the height of Britp going to a pub in Sheffield and a guy started playing the Oasis song Don’t look back in Anger on the piano and most of the pub joined in. It still remains a really happy memory.
    That was the song that wrapped up Our Friends In The North, as Craig walked over the Tyne bridge. Why has that series never been repeated? Seems odd.
    Oasis were not the greatest band, but at least they pumped out a few great singalong anthems.

    Possibly the last British band to do that? What will kids today and tomorrow sing along to?

    It is a great failure of modern pop music. it no longer produces anthems that define the age and capture your youth - as far as I can tell
    I feel that but you have to allow the possibility it's that we lack the 2 things needed to know it - youth and then the looking back upon it. Oasis were derivative and samey and bombastic but they had weight.
    Indeed, however I have quite a few friends in their 20s and they report that this is true. When they want to sing along to a song, they have to go back many years, often to songs written well before they were born - like Bohemian Rhapsody

    There is no mass, shared music culture, any more, and modern music is not providing these communal moments.

    That's what I am told. anyhow

    Good Haka
    This is going to make me sound old but I genuinely don't think they make them like they did anymore.

    Think of the songs that are great singlealongs - things like Bohemian Rhapsody, Sweet Caroline, Summer of 69, Wonderwall etc - they were made decades apart but are all properly anthemic to sing along to.

    Singers like Ed Sheeran or Adelle or Beyonce just aren't anthemic in the same way.
    Hang on, sort of agree on Sheeran but Adele and Beyonce don't have anthems? That's not true. They both had Glasto in the palm of their hands.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 11,219

    Sky report just now had a Jersey fisherman say that if France closes the ports they land their fish at next tuesday he backs Boris in taking on France

    600 years on from Agincourt and we've not made a huge amount of progress in Anglo-French relations, have we?
  • ydoethur said:

    At the moment it's a bit of a case of that's all Woakes.

    Not a big fan of hit and giggle but no match where the Aussies are 15-3 is a bad match.

    I'm a fan of all forms of Cricket, I'm not sure the Aussies realise this is a T20 at this rate though.

    21-3 at the end of the Powerplay (6 overs). Run Rate 3.5 - that's like an old fashioned ODI.

    21-4 😂😂😂😂🏏🏏🏏🏏
    66-0 from England's Powerplay in reply.

    England unbackable now on Betfair Sandpit. Can be laid for 1.01.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 8,112

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    BigRich said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Oh God, here it comes. Flower of Scotland

    How did Scotland end up with this terrible dirge? It makes God Save the Queen look like Men of Harlech

    They could have gone for Sunshine on Leith. Wonderful song

    The First Big Weekend by Arab Strap.
    There is a tendency for nations to choose dutiful, pompous dirges when they have superb popular melodies

    How did Australia end up with Advance Australia Fair when they could have had Waltzing Matilda, which, when sung by 100,000 Aussies in a Melbourne stadium sends shivers down the spine. The official anthem, to be polite, does not

    Ditto Ireland with that awful Ireland Ireland anthem, when they had Molly Malone in the wings

    Advance Australia Fair is terrible, but still leaps ahead of the dirge that is GSTQ.

    The problem for me with Waltzing Matilda is as a teenager when down under, it was the dirty lyrics that got stuck in my head. Which kind of makes it hard to take seriously after that.

    Waltzing Matilda
    Who bloody killed her?
    Lying in the grass
    With her finger up her arse
    The Fijian anthem when the men’s rugby sevens team sang it at the Olympics was just magnificent
    God Save the Queen is OK. It has the advantage of being short, memorable, easy to sing, and modestly rousing - SEND HER VICTORIOUS

    But it is no masterpiece. There are many better anthems

    When you think of the songs we could have had, from Jerusalem to Land of Hope and Glory to Rule Britannia to Hey Jude to the very greatest song of all, Bohemian Rhapsody

    Which I see has now been adopted as a kind of global anthem (helped by Green Day). Makes yer praaaad


    America:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdDimyd6cj4


    Argentina:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfCcYxMhq5w


    Canada:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A6Pp_kqTqE

    There's a hundred of these, from Mexico to Croatia, Italy to Poland


    But the best remains the famous one in Hyde Park

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZnBNuqqz5g
    Those are amazing I had not seen them before!

    Lets hope with the end of COVID we can have more of that type of stuff.
    This also happened at my niece's wedding in Rhodes, Greece, in 2019 (sob, it all seems so innocent and far away now).

    During the dinner someone started singing Bohemian Rhapsody and then half the entire wedding party joined in and we carried it all the way to end, word perfect. It is a miraculous song in its ability to do that, over 6 minutes. It is partly because it is so varied, and also because it has three or four moments of very different ecstasy. That makes it easy to remember and sing, somehow, and it is always moving when sung with passion
    Not quite on the same level but I remember during the height of Britp going to a pub in Sheffield and a guy started playing the Oasis song Don’t look back in Anger on the piano and most of the pub joined in. It still remains a really happy memory.
    That was the song that wrapped up Our Friends In The North, as Craig walked over the Tyne bridge. Why has that series never been repeated? Seems odd.
    Oasis were not the greatest band, but at least they pumped out a few great singalong anthems.

    Possibly the last British band to do that? What will kids today and tomorrow sing along to?

    It is a great failure of modern pop music. it no longer produces anthems that define the age and capture your youth - as far as I can tell
    I feel that but you have to allow the possibility it's that we lack the 2 things needed to know it - youth and then the looking back upon it. Oasis were derivative and samey and bombastic but they had weight.
    Indeed, however I have quite a few friends in their 20s and they report that this is true. When they want to sing along to a song, they have to go back many years, often to songs written well before they were born - like Bohemian Rhapsody

    There is no mass, shared music culture, any more, and modern music is not providing these communal moments.

    That's what I am told. anyhow

    Good Haka
    This is going to make me sound old but I genuinely don't think they make them like they did anymore.

    Think of the songs that are great singlealongs - things like Bohemian Rhapsody, Sweet Caroline, Summer of 69, Wonderwall etc - they were made decades apart but are all properly anthemic to sing along to.

    Singers like Ed Sheeran or Adelle or Beyonce just aren't anthemic in the same way.
    They DO make them like they used to. But culture is so fragmented now that we don't all listen to the same things in the same way. There are dozens of anthems out there but nota single audience listening to them all. I listen to Radio 6 and XS Manchester, and honestly couldn't tell you for sure more than five songs which have been in the charts in the last fifteen years. We can opt out of the mainstream in a way that previous generations simply could not.
    Ditto television.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,306
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Clément Beaune is saying that unless Britain makes a "significant gesture" by Tuesday they will start preventing British boats from landing and implementing a go slow for processing British goods.

    https://twitter.com/CBeaune/status/1454441755575824384

    Brussels may have something to say quietly about that.

    The EU is a process-obsessed bureaucracy, and they do not like their own countries breaking their treaties.
    Or they may just want to wave the big stick. After all Article 16 permits reasonable counter measures, and they might feel it appropriate to demonstrate that.
    Err...

    - We haven't invoked Article 16
    - Article 16 says that countermeasures have to be "proportionate" and limited to what is "strictly necessary to remedy the imbalance"
    Yes, that is why it would be a wave of the stick, rather than a whack with it. That would come with Article 16.
    So you're predicting they will back down and accept the offer from Jersey?
    I have no idea what will happen, neither do I have any knowledge of the details of the fishing licences to say who is in the right or wrong.

    It is a pity though that we poisoned our relationship with our neighbours to this degree. It is like neighbours sueing each other over the height of a hedge and who cuts it. No one wins.
    Does the EU have good relations with its other neighbours?
  • We might do this inside 10 overs
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433

    ydoethur said:

    At the moment it's a bit of a case of that's all Woakes.

    Not a big fan of hit and giggle but no match where the Aussies are 15-3 is a bad match.

    I'm a fan of all forms of Cricket, I'm not sure the Aussies realise this is a T20 at this rate though.

    21-3 at the end of the Powerplay (6 overs). Run Rate 3.5 - that's like an old fashioned ODI.

    21-4 😂😂😂😂🏏🏏🏏🏏
    66-0 from England's Powerplay in reply.

    England unbackable now on Betfair Sandpit. Can be laid for 1.01.
    :D:D
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,678
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Jersey offers a compromise. Two more permanent licenses, 18 more temporary - pending further evidence, -55 still refused


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-59077644


    The French would be well advised to back down, they've probably got enough to save face. If they continue with the blockade nonsense, Mon Dieu

    Personally, I would cancel all the French fishing licenses and say 'fuck you'.
    All 738 of them? - more than half the total continental EU allocation. Only Ireland - with less than half the French numbers comes remotely close. Odd how no other EU members have had problems.....
  • ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    This is brutal

    You've got to feel a bit sorry for the Auss...actually, no I don't.
    As Matthew Engel, the former correspondent of the Guardian, so memorably wrote: “It is important to remember the verities of cricket between England and Australia. Winning is not what matters . . . it is about renewing old friendships in a spirit of sporting endeavours between two nations with a common bond. But, by God, isn’t it great to beat the bastards?”

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ashes-relevance-nil-but-when-england-and-australia-collide-theres-always-meaning-q5wll7b90
  • The collapse begins now.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,605
    Absolutely great cricket.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484
    Oooh. Yellow card?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,279
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    A better second half from the convicts, 126 the target, which still seems about 30 short of where it could have been.

    England fans the happy ones in the stadium at half time.

    The stadium atmos seems a bit lacklustre on the telly. Is it better there?

    I'm still well jel. I'd love to be there in the warmth, with a cold beer!
    General admission areas are packed and having a party, great atmosphere here.

    Lots of no-shows in the sponsors and hospitality though, probably Indians and Pakistanis who went to that match and will go to the final. Shame.

    Am now in a long queue for the bar!
    Indians OR Pakistanis will go to the final!
  • rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Jersey offers a compromise. Two more permanent licenses, 18 more temporary - pending further evidence, -55 still refused


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-59077644


    The French would be well advised to back down, they've probably got enough to save face. If they continue with the blockade nonsense, Mon Dieu

    Personally, I would cancel all the French fishing licenses and say 'fuck you'.
    All 738 of them? - more than half the total continental EU allocation. Only Ireland - with less than half the French numbers comes remotely close. Odd how no other EU members have had problems.....
    If the 55 unlicensed boats do not get a licence Macron is not going to be popular in Northern France
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,914

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    BigRich said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Oh God, here it comes. Flower of Scotland

    How did Scotland end up with this terrible dirge? It makes God Save the Queen look like Men of Harlech

    They could have gone for Sunshine on Leith. Wonderful song

    The First Big Weekend by Arab Strap.
    There is a tendency for nations to choose dutiful, pompous dirges when they have superb popular melodies

    How did Australia end up with Advance Australia Fair when they could have had Waltzing Matilda, which, when sung by 100,000 Aussies in a Melbourne stadium sends shivers down the spine. The official anthem, to be polite, does not

    Ditto Ireland with that awful Ireland Ireland anthem, when they had Molly Malone in the wings

    Advance Australia Fair is terrible, but still leaps ahead of the dirge that is GSTQ.

    The problem for me with Waltzing Matilda is as a teenager when down under, it was the dirty lyrics that got stuck in my head. Which kind of makes it hard to take seriously after that.

    Waltzing Matilda
    Who bloody killed her?
    Lying in the grass
    With her finger up her arse
    The Fijian anthem when the men’s rugby sevens team sang it at the Olympics was just magnificent
    God Save the Queen is OK. It has the advantage of being short, memorable, easy to sing, and modestly rousing - SEND HER VICTORIOUS

    But it is no masterpiece. There are many better anthems

    When you think of the songs we could have had, from Jerusalem to Land of Hope and Glory to Rule Britannia to Hey Jude to the very greatest song of all, Bohemian Rhapsody

    Which I see has now been adopted as a kind of global anthem (helped by Green Day). Makes yer praaaad


    America:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdDimyd6cj4


    Argentina:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfCcYxMhq5w


    Canada:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A6Pp_kqTqE

    There's a hundred of these, from Mexico to Croatia, Italy to Poland


    But the best remains the famous one in Hyde Park

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZnBNuqqz5g
    Those are amazing I had not seen them before!

    Lets hope with the end of COVID we can have more of that type of stuff.
    This also happened at my niece's wedding in Rhodes, Greece, in 2019 (sob, it all seems so innocent and far away now).

    During the dinner someone started singing Bohemian Rhapsody and then half the entire wedding party joined in and we carried it all the way to end, word perfect. It is a miraculous song in its ability to do that, over 6 minutes. It is partly because it is so varied, and also because it has three or four moments of very different ecstasy. That makes it easy to remember and sing, somehow, and it is always moving when sung with passion
    Not quite on the same level but I remember during the height of Britp going to a pub in Sheffield and a guy started playing the Oasis song Don’t look back in Anger on the piano and most of the pub joined in. It still remains a really happy memory.
    That was the song that wrapped up Our Friends In The North, as Craig walked over the Tyne bridge. Why has that series never been repeated? Seems odd.
    Oasis were not the greatest band, but at least they pumped out a few great singalong anthems.

    Possibly the last British band to do that? What will kids today and tomorrow sing along to?

    It is a great failure of modern pop music. it no longer produces anthems that define the age and capture your youth - as far as I can tell
    I feel that but you have to allow the possibility it's that we lack the 2 things needed to know it - youth and then the looking back upon it. Oasis were derivative and samey and bombastic but they had weight.
    Indeed, however I have quite a few friends in their 20s and they report that this is true. When they want to sing along to a song, they have to go back many years, often to songs written well before they were born - like Bohemian Rhapsody

    There is no mass, shared music culture, any more, and modern music is not providing these communal moments.

    That's what I am told. anyhow

    Good Haka
    This is going to make me sound old but I genuinely don't think they make them like they did anymore.

    Think of the songs that are great singlealongs - things like Bohemian Rhapsody, Sweet Caroline, Summer of 69, Wonderwall etc - they were made decades apart but are all properly anthemic to sing along to.

    Singers like Ed Sheeran or Adelle or Beyonce just aren't anthemic in the same way.
    I know people try to, but no-one can properly sing along to Bohemian Rhapsody: the range is insane and only a vocal genius like Freddie Mercury or the tiny number of singers who can match what he could do can actually sing it.
    That's the fun of it though - belting it out and sounding like Alan Partridge.
  • Leon said:

    Oooh. Yellow card?

    We need some context: which game are you watching, or are you referring to the fishing?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,678

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Clément Beaune is saying that unless Britain makes a "significant gesture" by Tuesday they will start preventing British boats from landing and implementing a go slow for processing British goods.

    https://twitter.com/CBeaune/status/1454441755575824384

    Brussels may have something to say quietly about that.

    The EU is a process-obsessed bureaucracy, and they do not like their own countries breaking their treaties.
    Or they may just want to wave the big stick. After all Article 16 permits reasonable counter measures, and they might feel it appropriate to demonstrate that.
    Err...

    - We haven't invoked Article 16
    - Article 16 says that countermeasures have to be "proportionate" and limited to what is "strictly necessary to remedy the imbalance"
    Yes, that is why it would be a wave of the stick, rather than a whack with it. That would come with Article 16.
    So you're predicting they will back down and accept the offer from Jersey?
    I have no idea what will happen, neither do I have any knowledge of the details of the fishing licences to say who is in the right or wrong.

    It is a pity though that we poisoned our relationship with our neighbours to this degree. It is like neighbours sueing each other over the height of a hedge and who cuts it. No one wins.
    Does the EU have good relations with its other neighbours?
    How many fights does it want to pick?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,883
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Jersey offers a compromise. Two more permanent licenses, 18 more temporary - pending further evidence, -55 still refused


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-59077644


    The French would be well advised to back down, they've probably got enough to save face. If they continue with the blockade nonsense, Mon Dieu

    Personally, I would cancel all the French fishing licenses and say 'fuck you'.

    But that's why I'm not in international statesman.
    I wonder what the reaction would be from Ireland, Belgium, Denmark etc if the UK said that if the French want to change the terms of the fishing agreement then it’s necessary and right to suspend all away fishing licences until it’s agreed.

    Would they suddenly take France’s side or would they pressure France to stop being silly…..?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,279
    stodge said:

    Sky report just now had a Jersey fisherman say that if France closes the ports they land their fish at next tuesday he backs Boris in taking on France

    600 years on from Agincourt and we've not made a huge amount of progress in Anglo-French relations, have we?
    Wouldn’t the Jersaymen, at the time of Agincourt, been backing France
  • kjhkjh Posts: 8,304

    kjh said:

    Aslan said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MattW said:

    kjh said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    RobD said:

    kjh said:

    Brilliant, both @CarlottaVance and @boulay detailed analysis re the French case is 'they don't have one' as opposed to them not finding out whether they actually do have a case or not.

    And we get ridiculous responses of 'well you should have kept your log book for a boat you stopped owning up to 5 years ago'

    How many people here keep their car registration details of a car they sold years ago and I assume a log book goes with the boat and is a more substantial document. Actually I don't know that but do you Carlotta or Boulay?

    This is just nationalist nonsense; we are right because we are British and the Foreigner's are wrong. None of us here know the facts.

    How is that a ridiculous response? You're expected to keep tax records for seven years, IIRC.
    Well I answered that.

    a) The log book probably goes with the boat.

    b) Do you keep your old car records?

    c) Is there a requirement to keep records of a boat you have sold?

    And of course this was just one example of how people arguing here have no idea what the French case is. They just assume they are in the wrong. They may be. They may not. It is bizarre though to just assume they don't have a case.
    I’m no expert on fishing, but if I wanted to sell, for example, an aeroplane or a classic racing car, there are sure as hell protocols and discussions around documentation that are worked through at the time of sale. Some documents will remain with the vehicle, others remain with the original owner, and others with various authorities and third parties, setting out everyone’s future rights and obligations.

    Why would a fishing boat be any different? If he’s selling his boat for scrap and upgrading to a new vessel, he’ll want to keep the fishing rights associated with it. If he’s selling his boat to another fisherman, and upgrading to a new boat, there will need to be an agreement between the buyer, seller and fishing authorities, as to future fishing rights of the two boats. The buyer (and his lawyer) sure as hell wants to know if he’s buying a boat, or buying fishing rights.
    Also (and here I do confess ignorance) if you need the old log book, why not just go and get it, and borrow it from the new owner? Then make a copy? Nip round St Malo, use your phonecam, Le Bingo

    How hard is that? Or have these boats all weirdly disappeared to Papeete?
    This sort of 'papers please' pettyfogging mentality led to the Windrush scandal and to countless other injustices over the piece. There could be valid reasons why the fisherfolk can't produce the exact docs required per the exact wording of some form or other. Agreements need to be implemented according to their spirit not simply their letter. It's a myth put about by jobbing lawyers that they don't. Are we behaving well here? Or are we nitpicking? I honestly don't know and I'm pretty skeptical of anybody who says they do - unless they write a really good post explaining why France has no case PLUS they say without caveat that Johnson is being a dick on the NI protocol. This is the magic combo, weighty looking post slagging off Macron on the fish plus demonstrated intellectual integrity. That'd nail it for me. I could get off the wheel and have some cheese.
    This sort of attitude @kinabalu will get you deported, at least. For simply suggesting there might just be two sides to an argument I have been told I hate my country.
    I think calling "papers, please" pettufogging is fascinating and revealing rhetoric.

    So, then, we should not have to have an Insurance Certificate or an MOT Cert for our cars, and just be allowed to drive in them by asserting that we do have the paperwork?

    I'm incline to ask @kinabalu to turn up at the local airport to pilot the next passenger flight out, and see if harrumphing about checks on "papers", rather than providing any, suffices for getting into the cockpit.

    Licenses are important in this case, because it is a license to make a livelihood, and it is in the ratified agreement that historic evidence of participation is required. It is notable that the local French fishermen based near Jersey are amongst those asserting that the ones not issued licenses do not have a history of participation.

    That's all, really.
    The French fishermen are in exactly the position of people who could not demonstrate lost earnings for COVID purposes because they had been working cash in hand. Hoist with their own
    That's exactly right. If there were good arguments for the absence of records, the French would be making them. But there aren't so instead they are trying to turn this into an abstract argument about punishing perfidious Albion.
    I wonder if the situation is something like this -

    - Previously enforcement was a slack on small boats. They just did their thing.
    - When Brexit came in, the new rules are actually being enforced.
    - A number of people who didn't actually have the fishing rights, or had them and didn't exercise them are now being asked to sign up to formal licensing and have got a bit stuck.

    I am reminded of the following - before Brexit, you could bring in pretty much unlimited amount of wine from France, as long as it was for personal use. Customs and Excise fought a long and losing battle to stop this.

    Post Brexit, they introduced small personal allowances and enforced them.

    Certain small UK wine dealers were used to drive a transit van over to see their mates in the various vineyards and coming back with multiple metric tons of high end wine. Which they could then sell at a keen price, with an increased profit.

    This trade has now come to a screeching halt.

    Unfair, or proper license enforcement? They were certainly abusing the "for personal use" provisions.
    Proper licence enforcement in both cases. The issue is not that the laws are now being enforced but that they were not before. Don't pass laws that you either cannot or choose not to enforce.
    Totally agreed. If a law doesn't need to be enforced, it shouldn't be the law.

    Otherwise you're just giving a competitive advantage to whoever is prepared to break the law.
    More dangerously to my mind you are giving the authorities licence to pick and choose how and when they enforce it to serve their own ends.
    Although I agree with the point you make there Richard I don't agree with your original point of not passing laws you choose not to enforce, although I see how one might lead to the other.

    With the exception of road traffic laws which the Police do tend to enforce according to their own judgement (wisely usually) we do have a habit otherwise of enforcing laws in this country (a jobs worth attitude) regardless of the circumstances and where common sense should prevail. This has the downside of making it difficult to pass effective laws so some potentially good laws don't get passed because of all the potential exceptions and also laws being enforced when clearly it wasn't meant for a particular purpose. A good example might be the metrication rules for shops which should be obeyed by supermarkets, but if a market stallholder wants to sell in pounds and ounces, then fine. I mean who are they harming?

    I have experienced the common sense approach by traffic cops on 3 occasions and the nonsense of a parking fine for doing the right thing but not complying with a technicality whereas if I had done the wrong thing, the technicality wouldn't have been needed and I would have been fine, but the rules are the rules.

    And just to annoy @MaxPB because he obviously think I am some raving Francophile I think the French are far better at this than us. Plenty of rules that are just waived when not necessary.
    Having laws that are enforced at the whim of the police is a recipe for discrimination and corruption.
    I can see the point but I don't think that happens or when it does the police who do it should be prosecuted. We are talking about what actually happens here already. I haven't suggested anything radical. As has already been pointed out the police already do use their discretion with regard to traffic laws and drug laws as I believe they should and I'm sure there are other cases as well. I have no objection to them doing so if appropriate. I think they should. I don't think it is a recipe for discrimination or corruption as If you break the law you can not and should not rely on the police letting you off and if they do show corruption or discrimination, they should be punished appropriately.

    A good example of how this could be done better is comparing the travel requirement of the UK, France and Portugal re Covid (the only countries I have travelled to and from in this time). None of the requirements of any of the countries are enforceable from a practical point of view. I could bore for hours as to how most of the proof you have to provide is unverifiable and nobody actually puts any effort into verifying it. It is all done on trust. So the French and Portuguese recognise this by what they require you to fill in. The UK doesn't by making it so much more complicated, yet equally as leaky. Basically for all 3 there are rules. Honest people check the rules and obey them, which is the majority and they achieve what they want in a costly manner.

    Pass laws, enforce them where necessary. Prosecute the police if they abuse that. It is what we do at the moment anyway. Just be more flexible.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    Just rereading the header by Quincel

    I think the election is on Tuesday the 2nd not Thursday.

    doesn't change an exhalant header, but thought I would add that. (sorry if its already been mentioned)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 105,386
    edited October 2021

    stodge said:

    Sky report just now had a Jersey fisherman say that if France closes the ports they land their fish at next tuesday he backs Boris in taking on France

    600 years on from Agincourt and we've not made a huge amount of progress in Anglo-French relations, have we?
    Wouldn’t the Jersaymen, at the time of Agincourt, been backing France
    The Jersey folk have a lot in common with the French.

    Both collaborated with the Nazis for starters.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,605

    The collapse begins now.

    Nah losing Roy is a net positive, his strike rate isn't brilliant.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484

    Leon said:

    Oooh. Yellow card?

    We need some context: which game are you watching, or are you referring to the fishing?
    The cricket is won. So I'm watching the rugger

    It's always a pleasure to watch the All Blacks and they look brutal here, however Wales are giving them a proper test

    And the atmosphere is intense, unlike Dubai or Murrayfield
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,279
    Foxy said:

    kjh said:

    Aslan said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MattW said:

    kjh said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    RobD said:

    kjh said:

    Brilliant, both @CarlottaVance and @boulay detailed analysis re the French case is 'they don't have one' as opposed to them not finding out whether they actually do have a case or not.

    And we get ridiculous responses of 'well you should have kept your log book for a boat you stopped owning up to 5 years ago'

    How many people here keep their car registration details of a car they sold years ago and I assume a log book goes with the boat and is a more substantial document. Actually I don't know that but do you Carlotta or Boulay?

    This is just nationalist nonsense; we are right because we are British and the Foreigner's are wrong. None of us here know the facts.

    How is that a ridiculous response? You're expected to keep tax records for seven years, IIRC.
    Well I answered that.

    a) The log book probably goes with the boat.

    b) Do you keep your old car records?

    c) Is there a requirement to keep records of a boat you have sold?

    And of course this was just one example of how people arguing here have no idea what the French case is. They just assume they are in the wrong. They may be. They may not. It is bizarre though to just assume they don't have a case.
    I’m no expert on fishing, but if I wanted to sell, for example, an aeroplane or a classic racing car, there are sure as hell protocols and discussions around documentation that are worked through at the time of sale. Some documents will remain with the vehicle, others remain with the original owner, and others with various authorities and third parties, setting out everyone’s future rights and obligations.

    Why would a fishing boat be any different? If he’s selling his boat for scrap and upgrading to a new vessel, he’ll want to keep the fishing rights associated with it. If he’s selling his boat to another fisherman, and upgrading to a new boat, there will need to be an agreement between the buyer, seller and fishing authorities, as to future fishing rights of the two boats. The buyer (and his lawyer) sure as hell wants to know if he’s buying a boat, or buying fishing rights.
    Also (and here I do confess ignorance) if you need the old log book, why not just go and get it, and borrow it from the new owner? Then make a copy? Nip round St Malo, use your phonecam, Le Bingo

    How hard is that? Or have these boats all weirdly disappeared to Papeete?
    This sort of 'papers please' pettyfogging mentality led to the Windrush scandal and to countless other injustices over the piece. There could be valid reasons why the fisherfolk can't produce the exact docs required per the exact wording of some form or other. Agreements need to be implemented according to their spirit not simply their letter. It's a myth put about by jobbing lawyers that they don't. Are we behaving well here? Or are we nitpicking? I honestly don't know and I'm pretty skeptical of anybody who says they do - unless they write a really good post explaining why France has no case PLUS they say without caveat that Johnson is being a dick on the NI protocol. This is the magic combo, weighty looking post slagging off Macron on the fish plus demonstrated intellectual integrity. That'd nail it for me. I could get off the wheel and have some cheese.
    This sort of attitude @kinabalu will get you deported, at least. For simply suggesting there might just be two sides to an argument I have been told I hate my country.
    I think calling "papers, please" pettufogging is fascinating and revealing rhetoric.

    So, then, we should not have to have an Insurance Certificate or an MOT Cert for our cars, and just be allowed to drive in them by asserting that we do have the paperwork?

    I'm incline to ask @kinabalu to turn up at the local airport to pilot the next passenger flight out, and see if harrumphing about checks on "papers", rather than providing any, suffices for getting into the cockpit.

    Licenses are important in this case, because it is a license to make a livelihood, and it is in the ratified agreement that historic evidence of participation is required. It is notable that the local French fishermen based near Jersey are amongst those asserting that the ones not issued licenses do not have a history of participation.

    That's all, really.
    The French fishermen are in exactly the position of people who could not demonstrate lost earnings for COVID purposes because they had been working cash in hand. Hoist with their own
    That's exactly right. If there were good arguments for the absence of records, the French would be making them. But there aren't so instead they are trying to turn this into an abstract argument about punishing perfidious Albion.
    I wonder if the situation is something like this -

    - Previously enforcement was a slack on small boats. They just did their thing.
    - When Brexit came in, the new rules are actually being enforced.
    - A number of people who didn't actually have the fishing rights, or had them and didn't exercise them are now being asked to sign up to formal licensing and have got a bit stuck.

    I am reminded of the following - before Brexit, you could bring in pretty much unlimited amount of wine from France, as long as it was for personal use. Customs and Excise fought a long and losing battle to stop this.

    Post Brexit, they introduced small personal allowances and enforced them.

    Certain small UK wine dealers were used to drive a transit van over to see their mates in the various vineyards and coming back with multiple metric tons of high end wine. Which they could then sell at a keen price, with an increased profit.

    This trade has now come to a screeching halt.

    Unfair, or proper license enforcement? They were certainly abusing the "for personal use" provisions.
    Proper licence enforcement in both cases. The issue is not that the laws are now being enforced but that they were not before. Don't pass laws that you either cannot or choose not to enforce.
    Totally agreed. If a law doesn't need to be enforced, it shouldn't be the law.

    Otherwise you're just giving a competitive advantage to whoever is prepared to break the law.
    More dangerously to my mind you are giving the authorities licence to pick and choose how and when they enforce it to serve their own ends.
    Although I agree with the point you make there Richard I don't agree with your original point of not passing laws you choose not to enforce, although I see how one might lead to the other.

    With the exception of road traffic laws which the Police do tend to enforce according to their own judgement (wisely usually) we do have a habit otherwise of enforcing laws in this country (a jobs worth attitude) regardless of the circumstances and where common sense should prevail. This has the downside of making it difficult to pass effective laws so some potentially good laws don't get passed because of all the potential exceptions and also laws being enforced when clearly it wasn't meant for a particular purpose. A good example might be the metrication rules for shops which should be obeyed by supermarkets, but if a market stallholder wants to sell in pounds and ounces, then fine. I mean who are they harming?

    I have experienced the common sense approach by traffic cops on 3 occasions and the nonsense of a parking fine for doing the right thing but not complying with a technicality whereas if I had done the wrong thing, the technicality wouldn't have been needed and I would have been fine, but the rules are the rules.

    And just to annoy @MaxPB because he obviously think I am some raving Francophile I think the French are far better at this than us. Plenty of rules that are just waived when not necessary.
    Drug laws are often ignored by the police.
    Depends on who is breaking them!
  • MaxPB said:

    The collapse begins now.

    Nah losing Roy is a net positive, his strike rate isn't brilliant.
    110 today and a career strike rate of 145 is impressive.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,847
    Mr. Teacher, worth noting Roger Taylor did the highest notes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563

    stodge said:

    Sky report just now had a Jersey fisherman say that if France closes the ports they land their fish at next tuesday he backs Boris in taking on France

    600 years on from Agincourt and we've not made a huge amount of progress in Anglo-French relations, have we?
    Wouldn’t the Jersaymen, at the time of Agincourt, been backing France
    The Jersey folk have a lot in common with the French.

    Both collaborated with the Nazis for starters.
    Can I make a really crude and offensive joke about Jerriais and Jerries?
  • Australia = Stepmom

    Jos Buttler = Stepson
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433
    Buttler doing it for fun. This is over.
  • ydoethur said:

    stodge said:

    Sky report just now had a Jersey fisherman say that if France closes the ports they land their fish at next tuesday he backs Boris in taking on France

    600 years on from Agincourt and we've not made a huge amount of progress in Anglo-French relations, have we?
    Wouldn’t the Jersaymen, at the time of Agincourt, been backing France
    The Jersey folk have a lot in common with the French.

    Both collaborated with the Nazis for starters.
    Can I make a really crude and offensive joke about Jerriais and Jerries?
    Go on.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    stodge said:

    Sky report just now had a Jersey fisherman say that if France closes the ports they land their fish at next tuesday he backs Boris in taking on France

    600 years on from Agincourt and we've not made a huge amount of progress in Anglo-French relations, have we?
    Wouldn’t the Jersaymen, at the time of Agincourt, been backing France
    I don't know, their Duke/King would have been the same as the English for 349 years by then.

    When did the channel islands start speaking English as their 'Linga franker' I have a felling is fairly recently?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563

    ydoethur said:

    stodge said:

    Sky report just now had a Jersey fisherman say that if France closes the ports they land their fish at next tuesday he backs Boris in taking on France

    600 years on from Agincourt and we've not made a huge amount of progress in Anglo-French relations, have we?
    Wouldn’t the Jersaymen, at the time of Agincourt, been backing France
    The Jersey folk have a lot in common with the French.

    Both collaborated with the Nazis for starters.
    Can I make a really crude and offensive joke about Jerriais and Jerries?
    Go on.
    One Gestapo officer to another: 'How do I make this Jerseywoman talk?'

    Reply: 'Sweater.'
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,568
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    This is brutal

    You've got to feel a bit sorry for the Auss...actually, no I don't.
    Me neither.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,145
    edited October 2021

    I'm a dick

    RU OK, @Horse ?

    (Serious question)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,732

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Clément Beaune is saying that unless Britain makes a "significant gesture" by Tuesday they will start preventing British boats from landing and implementing a go slow for processing British goods.

    https://twitter.com/CBeaune/status/1454441755575824384

    Brussels may have something to say quietly about that.

    The EU is a process-obsessed bureaucracy, and they do not like their own countries breaking their treaties.
    Or they may just want to wave the big stick. After all Article 16 permits reasonable counter measures, and they might feel it appropriate to demonstrate that.
    Err...

    - We haven't invoked Article 16
    - Article 16 says that countermeasures have to be "proportionate" and limited to what is "strictly necessary to remedy the imbalance"
    Yes, that is why it would be a wave of the stick, rather than a whack with it. That would come with Article 16.
    So you're predicting they will back down and accept the offer from Jersey?
    I have no idea what will happen, neither do I have any knowledge of the details of the fishing licences to say who is in the right or wrong.

    It is a pity though that we poisoned our relationship with our neighbours to this degree. It is like neighbours sueing each other over the height of a hedge and who cuts it. No one wins.
    Does the EU have good relations with its other neighbours?
    Mostly so I think.

    Fishing patterns, and disputes over them in the Channel and North Sea long predate the EU.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433
    (Both arms up in the air emoji)
  • kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Aslan said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MattW said:

    kjh said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    RobD said:

    kjh said:

    Brilliant, both @CarlottaVance and @boulay detailed analysis re the French case is 'they don't have one' as opposed to them not finding out whether they actually do have a case or not.

    And we get ridiculous responses of 'well you should have kept your log book for a boat you stopped owning up to 5 years ago'

    How many people here keep their car registration details of a car they sold years ago and I assume a log book goes with the boat and is a more substantial document. Actually I don't know that but do you Carlotta or Boulay?

    This is just nationalist nonsense; we are right because we are British and the Foreigner's are wrong. None of us here know the facts.

    How is that a ridiculous response? You're expected to keep tax records for seven years, IIRC.
    Well I answered that.

    a) The log book probably goes with the boat.

    b) Do you keep your old car records?

    c) Is there a requirement to keep records of a boat you have sold?

    And of course this was just one example of how people arguing here have no idea what the French case is. They just assume they are in the wrong. They may be. They may not. It is bizarre though to just assume they don't have a case.
    I’m no expert on fishing, but if I wanted to sell, for example, an aeroplane or a classic racing car, there are sure as hell protocols and discussions around documentation that are worked through at the time of sale. Some documents will remain with the vehicle, others remain with the original owner, and others with various authorities and third parties, setting out everyone’s future rights and obligations.

    Why would a fishing boat be any different? If he’s selling his boat for scrap and upgrading to a new vessel, he’ll want to keep the fishing rights associated with it. If he’s selling his boat to another fisherman, and upgrading to a new boat, there will need to be an agreement between the buyer, seller and fishing authorities, as to future fishing rights of the two boats. The buyer (and his lawyer) sure as hell wants to know if he’s buying a boat, or buying fishing rights.
    Also (and here I do confess ignorance) if you need the old log book, why not just go and get it, and borrow it from the new owner? Then make a copy? Nip round St Malo, use your phonecam, Le Bingo

    How hard is that? Or have these boats all weirdly disappeared to Papeete?
    This sort of 'papers please' pettyfogging mentality led to the Windrush scandal and to countless other injustices over the piece. There could be valid reasons why the fisherfolk can't produce the exact docs required per the exact wording of some form or other. Agreements need to be implemented according to their spirit not simply their letter. It's a myth put about by jobbing lawyers that they don't. Are we behaving well here? Or are we nitpicking? I honestly don't know and I'm pretty skeptical of anybody who says they do - unless they write a really good post explaining why France has no case PLUS they say without caveat that Johnson is being a dick on the NI protocol. This is the magic combo, weighty looking post slagging off Macron on the fish plus demonstrated intellectual integrity. That'd nail it for me. I could get off the wheel and have some cheese.
    This sort of attitude @kinabalu will get you deported, at least. For simply suggesting there might just be two sides to an argument I have been told I hate my country.
    I think calling "papers, please" pettufogging is fascinating and revealing rhetoric.

    So, then, we should not have to have an Insurance Certificate or an MOT Cert for our cars, and just be allowed to drive in them by asserting that we do have the paperwork?

    I'm incline to ask @kinabalu to turn up at the local airport to pilot the next passenger flight out, and see if harrumphing about checks on "papers", rather than providing any, suffices for getting into the cockpit.

    Licenses are important in this case, because it is a license to make a livelihood, and it is in the ratified agreement that historic evidence of participation is required. It is notable that the local French fishermen based near Jersey are amongst those asserting that the ones not issued licenses do not have a history of participation.

    That's all, really.
    The French fishermen are in exactly the position of people who could not demonstrate lost earnings for COVID purposes because they had been working cash in hand. Hoist with their own
    That's exactly right. If there were good arguments for the absence of records, the French would be making them. But there aren't so instead they are trying to turn this into an abstract argument about punishing perfidious Albion.
    I wonder if the situation is something like this -

    - Previously enforcement was a slack on small boats. They just did their thing.
    - When Brexit came in, the new rules are actually being enforced.
    - A number of people who didn't actually have the fishing rights, or had them and didn't exercise them are now being asked to sign up to formal licensing and have got a bit stuck.

    I am reminded of the following - before Brexit, you could bring in pretty much unlimited amount of wine from France, as long as it was for personal use. Customs and Excise fought a long and losing battle to stop this.

    Post Brexit, they introduced small personal allowances and enforced them.

    Certain small UK wine dealers were used to drive a transit van over to see their mates in the various vineyards and coming back with multiple metric tons of high end wine. Which they could then sell at a keen price, with an increased profit.

    This trade has now come to a screeching halt.

    Unfair, or proper license enforcement? They were certainly abusing the "for personal use" provisions.
    Proper licence enforcement in both cases. The issue is not that the laws are now being enforced but that they were not before. Don't pass laws that you either cannot or choose not to enforce.
    Totally agreed. If a law doesn't need to be enforced, it shouldn't be the law.

    Otherwise you're just giving a competitive advantage to whoever is prepared to break the law.
    More dangerously to my mind you are giving the authorities licence to pick and choose how and when they enforce it to serve their own ends.
    Although I agree with the point you make there Richard I don't agree with your original point of not passing laws you choose not to enforce, although I see how one might lead to the other.

    With the exception of road traffic laws which the Police do tend to enforce according to their own judgement (wisely usually) we do have a habit otherwise of enforcing laws in this country (a jobs worth attitude) regardless of the circumstances and where common sense should prevail. This has the downside of making it difficult to pass effective laws so some potentially good laws don't get passed because of all the potential exceptions and also laws being enforced when clearly it wasn't meant for a particular purpose. A good example might be the metrication rules for shops which should be obeyed by supermarkets, but if a market stallholder wants to sell in pounds and ounces, then fine. I mean who are they harming?

    I have experienced the common sense approach by traffic cops on 3 occasions and the nonsense of a parking fine for doing the right thing but not complying with a technicality whereas if I had done the wrong thing, the technicality wouldn't have been needed and I would have been fine, but the rules are the rules.

    And just to annoy @MaxPB because he obviously think I am some raving Francophile I think the French are far better at this than us. Plenty of rules that are just waived when not necessary.
    Having laws that are enforced at the whim of the police is a recipe for discrimination and corruption.
    I can see the point but I don't think that happens or when it does the police who do it should be prosecuted. We are talking about what actually happens here already. I haven't suggested anything radical. As has already been pointed out the police already do use their discretion with regard to traffic laws and drug laws as I believe they should and I'm sure there are other cases as well. I have no objection to them doing so if appropriate. I think they should. I don't think it is a recipe for discrimination or corruption as If you break the law you can not and should not rely on the police letting you off and if they do show corruption or discrimination, they should be punished appropriately.

    A good example of how this could be done better is comparing the travel requirement of the UK, France and Portugal re Covid (the only countries I have travelled to and from in this time). None of the requirements of any of the countries are enforceable from a practical point of view. I could bore for hours as to how most of the proof you have to provide is unverifiable and nobody actually puts any effort into verifying it. It is all done on trust. So the French and Portuguese recognise this by what they require you to fill in. The UK doesn't by making it so much more complicated, yet equally as leaky. Basically for all 3 there are rules. Honest people check the rules and obey them, which is the majority and they achieve what they want in a costly manner.

    Pass laws, enforce them where necessary. Prosecute the police if they abuse that. It is what we do at the moment anyway. Just be more flexible.
    Having unenforceable laws is also a very bad idea, but if the police are going to be selective in their application of the law there better be a very full set of guidelines somewhere as to how they go about it or else certain groups are going to find themselves pulled over or stoped by the police far more often than others.

    Oh, wait that already happens...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563
    Sandpit said:

    (Both arms up in the air emoji)

    This is the most one-sided sporting encounter since I took on the Head of PE at badminton.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,279

    stodge said:

    Sky report just now had a Jersey fisherman say that if France closes the ports they land their fish at next tuesday he backs Boris in taking on France

    600 years on from Agincourt and we've not made a huge amount of progress in Anglo-French relations, have we?
    Wouldn’t the Jersaymen, at the time of Agincourt, been backing France
    The Jersey folk have a lot in common with the French.

    Both collaborated with the Nazis for starters.
    Jersey’s not a good place to hide in the hills and organise a Resistance!
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,883

    stodge said:

    Sky report just now had a Jersey fisherman say that if France closes the ports they land their fish at next tuesday he backs Boris in taking on France

    600 years on from Agincourt and we've not made a huge amount of progress in Anglo-French relations, have we?
    Wouldn’t the Jersaymen, at the time of Agincourt, been backing France
    No - Jersey was part of the English Crown by then - they split from Normandy when King John lost Normandy. He offered Jersey and Guernsey etc their special status in return for choosing his team which is why the Channel Islands are unique in considering John a “good king”….

    Although Jersey paid for it heavily until after the Napoleonic wars with constant attacks and invasions by the French.

    Culturally there is a long affinity with Normandy including the language being Jersey Norman French and long practical relations with Brittany (itself pretty independent from France for a long time) but very little love for the rest of France.

    As for TSE’s comment about collaborating- I’m sure, brave lad that he is, he would have been operating a resistance cell hiding out in the huge forests and mountain ranges away from the twenty-odd thousand German troops in a 45 square mile island. I salute you!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563
    Australia - 12 boundaries

    England - 11 and counting.

    Jos Buttler - 8 on his own.
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