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Tonight’s by-election bet – A Carlisle seat last won by UKIP – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    Windies not doing all that well against Bangladesh. Early days, of course!

    Is there such a thing as "early days" in a T20 match?
  • COVID positive tests appear to be falling in Wales, so I’m not clear why the Drake is all A-Shake.

    Not sure anyone is listening to him to be fair
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
  • HYUFD said:

    Missed this poll on the useless nonentity

    SKS doing well 20%, badly 60%, who the fook is SKS 20%

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1454022225229668352

    And, yet, when YouGov ask who would be the best PM Johnson only has a six point lead over Starmer.

    Which exactly matches the Tories six point lead over Labour with Yougov today then.


    Labour seem to be marooned and have been for a while
  • The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    So the heart condition (WPW) I was diagnosed with while at university was down to my diet? Or perhaps I was born with it https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/wolff-parkinson-white-syndrome/
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    edited October 2021
    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    Stocky said:

    Does anyone use ExpressVPN?

    Or Gener8 (just an ad blocker I think)?

    What are you trying to achieve?
    Dunno really. Maybe I'm worried over nothing.

    I don't want some fucking outfit collecting my personal data and browsing history.

    But I don't want my computer to go slower either.
    "fucking outfit" somewhat ambiguous, above all in this context!
    Betrays my lack of knowledge in this area!

    Similar computer-divvies like me do seem concerned about data collection issues by the likes of Google and Facebook. I can't quite get a handle on whether these concerns are legitimate ones so I thought I'd ask you guys.

    They do say that if you are not paying you are the product.

    I'd happily pay for a VPN if I understood it and trusted it I think.
    I have every sympathy, having discovered for instance that if I want to participate in academia-edu I have to sign over permission for them to see all my Google contacts, which I presume include my gmail account. So I have not done that. And I won't use Trustpilot as they claim the right to pass on my info (name, etc. and what I buy), so far as I can see.

    I'm seriously considering moving from gmail to a paid for email account, partly for that reason, and have been getting advice from techier friends on this.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Farooq said:

    Facemasks really doing the job in Wales then with its highest infection rate in the UK. Almost conclude they are worse than useless in a real world setting

    Copy/paste from a previous thread:

    I've been thinking about how to best explain why the "Wales / England, masks / maskless" comparisons don't work. It's a car analogy.

    Person A: "Using winter tyres in the summer uses more petrol, so it's better to shift to summer tyres when it's warm."
    Person B: "Ah-ha, but I'm using winter tyres here in Norfolk and you're using summer tyres there in Braemar, and my fuel efficiency is the same as yours! Therefore it makes no difference!"
    Person A: "Yes, because I'm forever driving up steep hills, and you're not. It would be worse again for me if I was using winter tyres"

    Obviously, this vignette also proves nothing, but try to keep it in mind when you think about bulk comparisons between two different places implementing different policies.

    The claim is that masks lower infection rates compared to not using them.
    The claim is NOT that masks make your infection rates lower than unmasked places.

    It's a subtlety that can easily be lost in a debate, but it's a vital one for any system where multiple independent variables control a dependent variable (which is say basically everything in the real world).
    While that's true the argument doesn't help us to work out how useful facemasks are, and therefore whether they should be the focus of public policy.

    What we can say is that one of two things must be true. Either enforcing face mask usage at this stage of the pandemic results in more transmission, or there are other differences between Wales and England that have more of an effect on transmission than face mask usage.

    I would suggest that public policy would be better directed towards those other differences, working out what they are and making the most of them to reduce transmission.
    If those other differences are, for example, crowded housing then the prospects for meaningful change in the short term are nil. You decide first if you want to apply policy pressure on a perceived problem, then you decide what measures are available in the timescale. Lower density housing is probably desirable but a decades-long goal. If you want something on the days-scale, masks are part of the debate.
    Mask adherence lowers transmission (to about half?? check that, I might be misremembering).
  • Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    Stocky said:

    Does anyone use ExpressVPN?

    Or Gener8 (just an ad blocker I think)?

    What are you trying to achieve?
    Dunno really. Maybe I'm worried over nothing.

    I don't want some fucking outfit collecting my personal data and browsing history.

    But I don't want my computer to go slower either.
    "fucking outfit" somewhat ambiguous, above all in this context!
    Betrays my lack of knowledge in this area!

    Similar computer-divvies like me do seem concerned about data collection issues by the likes of Google and Facebook. I can't quite get a handle on whether these concerns are legitimate ones so I thought I'd ask you guys.

    They do say that if you are not paying you are the product.

    I'd happily pay for a VPN if I understood it and trusted it I think.
    Your concerns might or might not be legitimate. Data collection is one thing but what is its use? And data collection is not stopped by VPNs, just reduced.

    Forget the web and think about shopping. Your supermarket knows that you shop once a week and buys seven frozen pizzas and a crate of Stella. So you tear up your loyalty card. Your supermarket knows that someone using your credit card shops once a week and buys seven frozen pizzas and a crate of Stella. So you pay cash, and your supermarket knows that someone shops once a week and buys seven frozen pizzas and a crate of Stella.

    So what? If the police are looking for the Stella-drinking pizza-eating Dunny-on-the-Wold Strangler, the supermarket computer can pull up your details and supply your cctv image. If there is a special promotion on, the cash register can be programmed to print out a voucher for own-brand pizzas.

    Back to the web. Whether or not you use a VPN, the PB web logs will show that someone logged in and posted whatever it is you posted. It can plant cookies. It can follow your activity. And so can your ISP. And changing that so your VPN vendor can see your activity achieves what, exactly? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    That said, there are good reasons for using VPNs, especially when WFH to access remote systems.
  • Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    Stocky said:

    Does anyone use ExpressVPN?

    Or Gener8 (just an ad blocker I think)?

    What are you trying to achieve?
    Dunno really. Maybe I'm worried over nothing.

    I don't want some fucking outfit collecting my personal data and browsing history.

    But I don't want my computer to go slower either.
    "fucking outfit" somewhat ambiguous, above all in this context!
    Betrays my lack of knowledge in this area!

    Similar computer-divvies like me do seem concerned about data collection issues by the likes of Google and Facebook. I can't quite get a handle on whether these concerns are legitimate ones so I thought I'd ask you guys.

    They do say that if you are not paying you are the product.

    I'd happily pay for a VPN if I understood it and trusted it I think.
    I have every sympathy, having discovered for instance that if I want to participate in academia-edu I have to sign over permission for them to see all my Google contacts, which I presume include my gmail account. So I have not done that. And I won't use Trustpilot as they claim the right to pass on my info (name, etc. and what I buy), so far as I can see.
    Could you set up a separate Google account just for that?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    edited October 2021

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Yes, Mr Johnson made a lot of noice about an obesity strategy when he left hospital about 18 months ago post covid, his own porkiness habing been a factor in his covid, one presumes. But very little happened. Even when people had the time and the opportunity to change their habits.
  • SavantaComRes

    NEW INDYREF2 POLLING:

    YES: 48%
    NO: 52%

    Yes: 45%
    No: 48%
    Don't know: 7%

    Should there be a referendum?
    Yes: 45%
    No: 47%
    Don't know: 9%

    @SavantaComRes for @TheScotsman

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    edited October 2021

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    Stocky said:

    Does anyone use ExpressVPN?

    Or Gener8 (just an ad blocker I think)?

    What are you trying to achieve?
    Dunno really. Maybe I'm worried over nothing.

    I don't want some fucking outfit collecting my personal data and browsing history.

    But I don't want my computer to go slower either.
    "fucking outfit" somewhat ambiguous, above all in this context!
    Betrays my lack of knowledge in this area!

    Similar computer-divvies like me do seem concerned about data collection issues by the likes of Google and Facebook. I can't quite get a handle on whether these concerns are legitimate ones so I thought I'd ask you guys.

    They do say that if you are not paying you are the product.

    I'd happily pay for a VPN if I understood it and trusted it I think.
    I have every sympathy, having discovered for instance that if I want to participate in academia-edu I have to sign over permission for them to see all my Google contacts, which I presume include my gmail account. So I have not done that. And I won't use Trustpilot as they claim the right to pass on my info (name, etc. and what I buy), so far as I can see.
    Could you set up a separate Google account just for that?
    I don't know if that would work - which is part of the problem.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Re vaccine efficacy on transmission. Read an article today on Google news [now cannot find it] suggesting a nasal spray vax may well significantly reduce transmission cf injections.
  • SavantaComRes

    NEW INDYREF2 POLLING:

    YES: 48%
    NO: 52%

    Yes: 45%
    No: 48%
    Don't know: 7%

    Should there be a referendum?
    Yes: 45%
    No: 47%
    Don't know: 9%

    @SavantaComRes for @TheScotsman

    Interesting that the same number want independence as want a referendum: I would have thought there are some who want independence but don’t want a referendum until they are sure it would pass.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    edited October 2021
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Facemasks really doing the job in Wales then with its highest infection rate in the UK. Almost conclude they are worse than useless in a real world setting

    Copy/paste from a previous thread:

    I've been thinking about how to best explain why the "Wales / England, masks / maskless" comparisons don't work. It's a car analogy.

    Person A: "Using winter tyres in the summer uses more petrol, so it's better to shift to summer tyres when it's warm."
    Person B: "Ah-ha, but I'm using winter tyres here in Norfolk and you're using summer tyres there in Braemar, and my fuel efficiency is the same as yours! Therefore it makes no difference!"
    Person A: "Yes, because I'm forever driving up steep hills, and you're not. It would be worse again for me if I was using winter tyres"

    Obviously, this vignette also proves nothing, but try to keep it in mind when you think about bulk comparisons between two different places implementing different policies.

    The claim is that masks lower infection rates compared to not using them.
    The claim is NOT that masks make your infection rates lower than unmasked places.

    It's a subtlety that can easily be lost in a debate, but it's a vital one for any system where multiple independent variables control a dependent variable (which is say basically everything in the real world).
    While that's true the argument doesn't help us to work out how useful facemasks are, and therefore whether they should be the focus of public policy.

    What we can say is that one of two things must be true. Either enforcing face mask usage at this stage of the pandemic results in more transmission, or there are other differences between Wales and England that have more of an effect on transmission than face mask usage.

    I would suggest that public policy would be better directed towards those other differences, working out what they are and making the most of them to reduce transmission.
    If those other differences are, for example, crowded housing then the prospects for meaningful change in the short term are nil. You decide first if you want to apply policy pressure on a perceived problem, then you decide what measures are available in the timescale. Lower density housing is probably desirable but a decades-long goal. If you want something on the days-scale, masks are part of the debate.
    Mask adherence lowers transmission (to about half?? check that, I might be misremembering).
    Yes. The differences between Wales and England might be structural differences that we can't do anything about in the short term, or they might not be. How could we work out whether they are structural and essentially fixed?

    We could look at the differences between England and Wales over time. If there were structural, fixed, differences then we would expect to see consistently higher transmission in Wales than in England. My impression is that the contrary is the case.

    Consequently your argument that the other differences, which produce a higher transmission rate in Wales are fixed is rejected.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    edited October 2021

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    So the heart condition (WPW) I was diagnosed with while at university was down to my diet? Or perhaps I was born with it https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/wolff-parkinson-white-syndrome/
    The NHS isn't being kept busy by the incidence of WPW to my knowledge, it's being kept busy by diabetes, heart disease, asthma, cancer, and recently by those who sadly haven't enjoyed robust enough health to recover independently from COVID. Those things most certainly are down to environmental factors, of which diet is a huge part.
  • MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    Ready meals are probably better than my alternative when I come home from school knackered and not wanting to have to cook, which is the local Chinese take-away.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    'Universally' is a bit OTT. Even for ready meals. There are, round here anyway, some good local suppliers.
  • MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    No they are not. Good quality (and not necessarily cheap) ready meals are a thing now. See for instance, the Charlie Bigham range, or even supermarkets' own "posh" brands.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618
    MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    One look at the long ingredients list reveals all. One thing we should do is bin “home economics” and “food technology” and replace it with: cookery. Get children cooking properly from an early age and tasting the dishes of their classmates from different backgrounds. Would massively reduce the market for shit processed food in a generation.
  • The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    So the heart condition (WPW) I was diagnosed with while at university was down to my diet? Or perhaps I was born with it https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/wolff-parkinson-white-syndrome/
    The NHS isn't being kept busy by the incidence of WPW to my knowledge, it's being kept busy by diabetes, heart disease, asthma, cancer, and recently by those who sadly haven't enjoyed robust enough health to recover independently from COVID. Those things most certainly are down to environmental factors, of which diet is a huge part.
    But you started by saying that the NHS should be obsolete. How could it then have treated my condition?
  • MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    One look at the long ingredients list reveals all. One thing we should do is bin “home economics” and “food technology” and replace it with: cookery. Get children cooking properly from an early age and tasting the dishes of their classmates from different backgrounds. Would massively reduce the market for shit processed food in a generation.
    As long as none of the dishes contain nuts of course…
  • Carnyx said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Yes, Mr Johnson made a lot of noice about an obesity strategy when he left hospital about 18 months ago post covid, his own porkiness habing been a factor in his covid, one presumes. But very little happened. Even when people had the time and the opportunity to change their habits.
    What exactly should have "happened"?

    He gave advice, its up to the public whether to take it up or ignore it.

    Its not the government's job to determine what we eat.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625

    MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    No they are not. Good quality (and not necessarily cheap) ready meals are a thing now. See for instance, the Charlie Bigham range, or even supermarkets' own "posh" brands.
    They are less shit. But read the ingredients lists.....
  • BalrogBalrog Posts: 207
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    Stocky said:

    Does anyone use ExpressVPN?

    Or Gener8 (just an ad blocker I think)?

    What are you trying to achieve?
    Dunno really. Maybe I'm worried over nothing.

    I don't want some fucking outfit collecting my personal data and browsing history.

    But I don't want my computer to go slower either.
    "fucking outfit" somewhat ambiguous, above all in this context!
    Betrays my lack of knowledge in this area!

    Similar computer-divvies like me do seem concerned about data collection issues by the likes of Google and Facebook. I can't quite get a handle on whether these concerns are legitimate ones so I thought I'd ask you guys.

    They do say that if you are not paying you are the product.

    I'd happily pay for a VPN if I understood it and trusted it I think.
    I have every sympathy, having discovered for instance that if I want to participate in academia-edu I have to sign over permission for them to see all my Google contacts, which I presume include my gmail account. So I have not done that. And I won't use Trustpilot as they claim the right to pass on my info (name, etc. and what I buy), so far as I can see.
    Could you set up a separate Google account just for that?
    I don't know if that would work - which is part of the problem.
    How could it not work. Even if google knew you had multiple accounts, it doesn't join their contacts.if you use Chrome it gives you different browser windows for your separate profiles.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    Ready meals are probably better than my alternative when I come home from school knackered and not wanting to have to cook, which is the local Chinese take-away.

    We all come home from work knackered. It's about finding the time to look after yourself and cooking at home is one of the most important factors in physical and mental health. Eating a super salty ready meal with 70 different ingredients and loads of added sugar takes its toll.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149

    Carnyx said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Yes, Mr Johnson made a lot of noice about an obesity strategy when he left hospital about 18 months ago post covid, his own porkiness habing been a factor in his covid, one presumes. But very little happened. Even when people had the time and the opportunity to change their habits.
    What exactly should have "happened"?

    He gave advice, its up to the public whether to take it up or ignore it.

    Its not the government's job to determine what we eat.
    No, he was talking about somethijng much more substantial (so to speak).

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-to-launch-war-on-fat-after-coronavirus-scare-flgswhmvx

    MY distinct impression was that the results were rather slimmer than they could be:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53541866
  • Carnyx said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Yes, Mr Johnson made a lot of noice about an obesity strategy when he left hospital about 18 months ago post covid, his own porkiness habing been a factor in his covid, one presumes. But very little happened. Even when people had the time and the opportunity to change their habits.
    What exactly should have "happened"?

    He gave advice, its up to the public whether to take it up or ignore it.

    Its not the government's job to determine what we eat.
    It seems fairly clear that society could be better, happier, healthier, and have reduced medical costs if we eat more healthily.

    So whilst on an individual short term basis of course the government should not determine what we eat, over the long run, if UK plc does not improve its diet, then government has failed. The government should put in place systems that allows us to make better decisions, that is quite different to the government making the decisions for us.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    Balrog said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    Stocky said:

    Does anyone use ExpressVPN?

    Or Gener8 (just an ad blocker I think)?

    What are you trying to achieve?
    Dunno really. Maybe I'm worried over nothing.

    I don't want some fucking outfit collecting my personal data and browsing history.

    But I don't want my computer to go slower either.
    "fucking outfit" somewhat ambiguous, above all in this context!
    Betrays my lack of knowledge in this area!

    Similar computer-divvies like me do seem concerned about data collection issues by the likes of Google and Facebook. I can't quite get a handle on whether these concerns are legitimate ones so I thought I'd ask you guys.

    They do say that if you are not paying you are the product.

    I'd happily pay for a VPN if I understood it and trusted it I think.
    I have every sympathy, having discovered for instance that if I want to participate in academia-edu I have to sign over permission for them to see all my Google contacts, which I presume include my gmail account. So I have not done that. And I won't use Trustpilot as they claim the right to pass on my info (name, etc. and what I buy), so far as I can see.
    Could you set up a separate Google account just for that?
    I don't know if that would work - which is part of the problem.
    How could it not work. Even if google knew you had multiple accounts, it doesn't join their contacts.if you use Chrome it gives you different browser windows for your separate profiles.
    The problem is that my academic email address is inevitably the same for all the publications, so that is a big link right there.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited October 2021

    SavantaComRes

    NEW INDYREF2 POLLING:

    YES: 48%
    NO: 52%

    Yes: 45%
    No: 48%
    Don't know: 7%

    Should there be a referendum?
    Yes: 45%
    No: 47%
    Don't know: 9%

    @SavantaComRes for @TheScotsman

    So including don't knows then Yes on 45% ie exactly zero change from 2014, despite Brexit and only committed Yes voters want another indyref2.

    So Boris can easily continue to refuse to grant an indyref2
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    Ready meals are probably better than my alternative when I come home from school knackered and not wanting to have to cook, which is the local Chinese take-away.

    We all come home from work knackered. It's about finding the time to look after yourself and cooking at home is one of the most important factors in physical and mental health. Eating a super salty ready meal with 70 different ingredients and loads of added sugar takes its toll.
    The other thing is that needs to be re-introduced is cooking in bulk. And using the freezer.

    I make Bolognese and various tomato sauces in bulk (for example), freeze them using a silicon tray (sold for making soap bars) into potion sized "bricks".

    I also cook in bulk and use the dish over several days.

    Both practises get an "ugh" from those who have been trained by the cooking shows that the only edible food is that which has been cooked 10 minutes before.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    Ready meals are probably better than my alternative when I come home from school knackered and not wanting to have to cook, which is the local Chinese take-away.

    We all come home from work knackered. It's about finding the time to look after yourself and cooking at home is one of the most important factors in physical and mental health. Eating a super salty ready meal with 70 different ingredients and loads of added sugar takes its toll.

    Here we run up against a major problem: I am a very lazy person.

    Actually there is a second problem. I live on my own and most recipes assume multiple people. When I cook a meal that should serve four people it somehow only seems to last me for two meals. Ready meals provide good portion control.
  • BalrogBalrog Posts: 207
    Carnyx said:

    Balrog said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    Stocky said:

    Does anyone use ExpressVPN?

    Or Gener8 (just an ad blocker I think)?

    What are you trying to achieve?
    Dunno really. Maybe I'm worried over nothing.

    I don't want some fucking outfit collecting my personal data and browsing history.

    But I don't want my computer to go slower either.
    "fucking outfit" somewhat ambiguous, above all in this context!
    Betrays my lack of knowledge in this area!

    Similar computer-divvies like me do seem concerned about data collection issues by the likes of Google and Facebook. I can't quite get a handle on whether these concerns are legitimate ones so I thought I'd ask you guys.

    They do say that if you are not paying you are the product.

    I'd happily pay for a VPN if I understood it and trusted it I think.
    I have every sympathy, having discovered for instance that if I want to participate in academia-edu I have to sign over permission for them to see all my Google contacts, which I presume include my gmail account. So I have not done that. And I won't use Trustpilot as they claim the right to pass on my info (name, etc. and what I buy), so far as I can see.
    Could you set up a separate Google account just for that?
    I don't know if that would work - which is part of the problem.
    How could it not work. Even if google knew you had multiple accounts, it doesn't join their contacts.if you use Chrome it gives you different browser windows for your separate profiles.
    The problem is that my academic email address is inevitably the same for all the publications, so that is a big link right there.

    I assumed you were trying to separate personal contacts from academic ones.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    edited October 2021

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Facemasks really doing the job in Wales then with its highest infection rate in the UK. Almost conclude they are worse than useless in a real world setting

    Copy/paste from a previous thread:

    I've been thinking about how to best explain why the "Wales / England, masks / maskless" comparisons don't work. It's a car analogy.

    Person A: "Using winter tyres in the summer uses more petrol, so it's better to shift to summer tyres when it's warm."
    Person B: "Ah-ha, but I'm using winter tyres here in Norfolk and you're using summer tyres there in Braemar, and my fuel efficiency is the same as yours! Therefore it makes no difference!"
    Person A: "Yes, because I'm forever driving up steep hills, and you're not. It would be worse again for me if I was using winter tyres"

    Obviously, this vignette also proves nothing, but try to keep it in mind when you think about bulk comparisons between two different places implementing different policies.

    The claim is that masks lower infection rates compared to not using them.
    The claim is NOT that masks make your infection rates lower than unmasked places.

    It's a subtlety that can easily be lost in a debate, but it's a vital one for any system where multiple independent variables control a dependent variable (which is say basically everything in the real world).
    While that's true the argument doesn't help us to work out how useful facemasks are, and therefore whether they should be the focus of public policy.

    What we can say is that one of two things must be true. Either enforcing face mask usage at this stage of the pandemic results in more transmission, or there are other differences between Wales and England that have more of an effect on transmission than face mask usage.

    I would suggest that public policy would be better directed towards those other differences, working out what they are and making the most of them to reduce transmission.
    If those other differences are, for example, crowded housing then the prospects for meaningful change in the short term are nil. You decide first if you want to apply policy pressure on a perceived problem, then you decide what measures are available in the timescale. Lower density housing is probably desirable but a decades-long goal. If you want something on the days-scale, masks are part of the debate.
    Mask adherence lowers transmission (to about half?? check that, I might be misremembering).
    Yes. The differences between Wales and England might be structural differences that we can't do anything about in the short term, or they might not be. How could we work out whether they are structural and essentially fixed?

    We could look at the differences between England and Wales over time. If there were structural, fixed, differences then we would expect to see consistently higher transmission in Wales than in England. My impression is that the contrary is the case.

    Consequently your argument that the other differences, which produce a higher transmission rate in Wales are fixed is rejected.
    Input variables interact: structural issues may only manifest under certain social or environmental conditions. I'll give a toy example which is oversimplified, but illustrates what I mean.
    If you have a large commuting population, say Aberdare residents commuting to Cardiff offices. Suppose opening train windows reduces transmission dramatically. During periods of weather when having train windows open is comfortable or even desirable, you're knocking out a commuting pillar of the transmission. When the weather gets colder, the passengers close the windows and boom, transmissions spike.

    This effect wouldn't show up at all if your work/residence/travel arrangements were different (e.g. where I live there are no trains at all, in other parts of the country commuting by bike is easier - I don't recommend cycling from Cardiff to Aberdare).

    Structural factors are not always active. And if you think about it, this is the point of masks. They interrupt the transmission that comes from people crowding into the same bus/train/shop/pub etc. If everyone wfh and had everything delivered and didn't mix in any way, masks would be pretty pointless. That structure of society isn't realistic or desirable, so masks have a realistic role if we want to take advantage of them.
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Facemasks really doing the job in Wales then with its highest infection rate in the UK. Almost conclude they are worse than useless in a real world setting

    Copy/paste from a previous thread:

    I've been thinking about how to best explain why the "Wales / England, masks / maskless" comparisons don't work. It's a car analogy.

    Person A: "Using winter tyres in the summer uses more petrol, so it's better to shift to summer tyres when it's warm."
    Person B: "Ah-ha, but I'm using winter tyres here in Norfolk and you're using summer tyres there in Braemar, and my fuel efficiency is the same as yours! Therefore it makes no difference!"
    Person A: "Yes, because I'm forever driving up steep hills, and you're not. It would be worse again for me if I was using winter tyres"

    Obviously, this vignette also proves nothing, but try to keep it in mind when you think about bulk comparisons between two different places implementing different policies.

    The claim is that masks lower infection rates compared to not using them.
    The claim is NOT that masks make your infection rates lower than unmasked places.

    It's a subtlety that can easily be lost in a debate, but it's a vital one for any system where multiple independent variables control a dependent variable (which is say basically everything in the real world).
    While that's true the argument doesn't help us to work out how useful facemasks are, and therefore whether they should be the focus of public policy.

    What we can say is that one of two things must be true. Either enforcing face mask usage at this stage of the pandemic results in more transmission, or there are other differences between Wales and England that have more of an effect on transmission than face mask usage.

    I would suggest that public policy would be better directed towards those other differences, working out what they are and making the most of them to reduce transmission.
    If those other differences are, for example, crowded housing then the prospects for meaningful change in the short term are nil. You decide first if you want to apply policy pressure on a perceived problem, then you decide what measures are available in the timescale. Lower density housing is probably desirable but a decades-long goal. If you want something on the days-scale, masks are part of the debate.
    Mask adherence lowers transmission (to about half?? check that, I might be misremembering).
    Yes. The differences between Wales and England might be structural differences that we can't do anything about in the short term, or they might not be. How could we work out whether they are structural and essentially fixed?

    We could look at the differences between England and Wales over time. If there were structural, fixed, differences then we would expect to see consistently higher transmission in Wales than in England. My impression is that the contrary is the case.

    Consequently your argument that the other differences, which produce a higher transmission rate in Wales are fixed is rejected.
    Input variables interact: structural issues may only manifest under certain social or environmental conditions. I'll give a toy example which is oversimplified, but illustrates what I mean.
    If you have a large commuting population, say Aberdare residents commuting to Cardiff offices. Suppose opening train windows reduces transmission dramatically. During periods of weather when having train windows open is comfortable or even desirable, you're knocking out a commuting pillar of the transmission. When the weather gets colder, the passengers close the windows and boom, transmissions spike.

    This effect wouldn't show up at all if your work/residence/travel arrangements were different (e.g. where I live there are no trains at all, in other parts of the country commuting by bike is easier - I don't recommend cycling from Cardiff to Aberdare).

    Structural factors are not always active. And if you think about it, this is the point of masks. They interrupt the transmission that comes from people crowding into the same bus/train/shop/pub etc. If everyone wfh and had everything delivered and didn't mix in any way, masks would be pretty pointless. That structure of society isn't realistic or desirable, so masks have a realistic role if we want to take advantage of them.
    That was well explained: have you thought of becoming a teacher?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    Ready meals are probably better than my alternative when I come home from school knackered and not wanting to have to cook, which is the local Chinese take-away.

    We all come home from work knackered. It's about finding the time to look after yourself and cooking at home is one of the most important factors in physical and mental health. Eating a super salty ready meal with 70 different ingredients and loads of added sugar takes its toll.

    Here we run up against a major problem: I am a very lazy person.

    Actually there is a second problem. I live on my own and most recipes assume multiple people. When I cook a meal that should serve four people it somehow only seems to last me for two meals. Ready meals provide good portion control.
    I'm in a similar situation. What I often do is cook the base of a meal during the weekend, and store that in the fridge. Then on the day just cook some frozen veg or something to go with it.
  • HYUFD said:

    SavantaComRes

    NEW INDYREF2 POLLING:

    YES: 48%
    NO: 52%

    Yes: 45%
    No: 48%
    Don't know: 7%

    Should there be a referendum?
    Yes: 45%
    No: 47%
    Don't know: 9%

    @SavantaComRes for @TheScotsman

    So including don't knows then Yes on 45% ie exactly zero change from 2014, despite Brexit and only committed Yes voters want another indyref2.

    So Boris can easily continue to refuse to grant an indyref2
    I do not expect him to be asked
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    Ready meals are probably better than my alternative when I come home from school knackered and not wanting to have to cook, which is the local Chinese take-away.

    We all come home from work knackered. It's about finding the time to look after yourself and cooking at home is one of the most important factors in physical and mental health. Eating a super salty ready meal with 70 different ingredients and loads of added sugar takes its toll.

    Here we run up against a major problem: I am a very lazy person.

    Actually there is a second problem. I live on my own and most recipes assume multiple people. When I cook a meal that should serve four people it somehow only seems to last me for two meals. Ready meals provide good portion control.
    Some of this is just snobbishness. What is wrong with these for example? https://www.about.sainsburys.co.uk/news/latest-news/2021/06-01-21-my-goodness

    How many people cooking for 1 or 2 from scratch would get such a diverse variety of vegetables into their diet?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    Ready meals are probably better than my alternative when I come home from school knackered and not wanting to have to cook, which is the local Chinese take-away.

    We all come home from work knackered. It's about finding the time to look after yourself and cooking at home is one of the most important factors in physical and mental health. Eating a super salty ready meal with 70 different ingredients and loads of added sugar takes its toll.

    Here we run up against a major problem: I am a very lazy person.

    Actually there is a second problem. I live on my own and most recipes assume multiple people. When I cook a meal that should serve four people it somehow only seems to last me for two meals. Ready meals provide good portion control.
    Well it's a good thing you live in the UK, at least then your diabetes and high blood pressure treatment will be free.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    SavantaComRes

    NEW INDYREF2 POLLING:

    YES: 48%
    NO: 52%

    Yes: 45%
    No: 48%
    Don't know: 7%

    Should there be a referendum?
    Yes: 45%
    No: 47%
    Don't know: 9%

    @SavantaComRes for @TheScotsman

    So including don't knows then Yes on 45% ie exactly zero change from 2014, despite Brexit and only committed Yes voters want another indyref2.

    So Boris can easily continue to refuse to grant an indyref2
    I do not expect him to be asked
    As union matters are reserved to Westminster he can also easily ignore the results of any non authorised indyref Unionists boycott
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Facemasks really doing the job in Wales then with its highest infection rate in the UK. Almost conclude they are worse than useless in a real world setting

    Copy/paste from a previous thread:

    I've been thinking about how to best explain why the "Wales / England, masks / maskless" comparisons don't work. It's a car analogy.

    Person A: "Using winter tyres in the summer uses more petrol, so it's better to shift to summer tyres when it's warm."
    Person B: "Ah-ha, but I'm using winter tyres here in Norfolk and you're using summer tyres there in Braemar, and my fuel efficiency is the same as yours! Therefore it makes no difference!"
    Person A: "Yes, because I'm forever driving up steep hills, and you're not. It would be worse again for me if I was using winter tyres"

    Obviously, this vignette also proves nothing, but try to keep it in mind when you think about bulk comparisons between two different places implementing different policies.

    The claim is that masks lower infection rates compared to not using them.
    The claim is NOT that masks make your infection rates lower than unmasked places.

    It's a subtlety that can easily be lost in a debate, but it's a vital one for any system where multiple independent variables control a dependent variable (which is say basically everything in the real world).
    While that's true the argument doesn't help us to work out how useful facemasks are, and therefore whether they should be the focus of public policy.

    What we can say is that one of two things must be true. Either enforcing face mask usage at this stage of the pandemic results in more transmission, or there are other differences between Wales and England that have more of an effect on transmission than face mask usage.

    I would suggest that public policy would be better directed towards those other differences, working out what they are and making the most of them to reduce transmission.
    If those other differences are, for example, crowded housing then the prospects for meaningful change in the short term are nil. You decide first if you want to apply policy pressure on a perceived problem, then you decide what measures are available in the timescale. Lower density housing is probably desirable but a decades-long goal. If you want something on the days-scale, masks are part of the debate.
    Mask adherence lowers transmission (to about half?? check that, I might be misremembering).
    Yes. The differences between Wales and England might be structural differences that we can't do anything about in the short term, or they might not be. How could we work out whether they are structural and essentially fixed?

    We could look at the differences between England and Wales over time. If there were structural, fixed, differences then we would expect to see consistently higher transmission in Wales than in England. My impression is that the contrary is the case.

    Consequently your argument that the other differences, which produce a higher transmission rate in Wales are fixed is rejected.
    Input variables interact: structural issues may only manifest under certain social or environmental conditions. I'll give a toy example which is oversimplified, but illustrates what I mean.
    If you have a large commuting population, say Aberdare residents commuting to Cardiff offices. Suppose opening train windows reduces transmission dramatically. During periods of weather when having train windows open is comfortable or even desirable, you're knocking out a commuting pillar of the transmission. When the weather gets colder, the passengers close the windows and boom, transmissions spike.

    This effect wouldn't show up at all if your work/residence/travel arrangements were different (e.g. where I live there are no trains at all, in other parts of the country commuting by bike is easier - I don't recommend cycling from Cardiff to Aberdare).

    Structural factors are not always active. And if you think about it, this is the point of masks. They interrupt the transmission that comes from people crowding into the same bus/train/shop/pub etc. If everyone wfh and had everything delivered and didn't mix in any way, masks would be pretty pointless. That structure of society isn't realistic or desirable, so masks have a realistic role if we want to take advantage of them.
    That was well explained: have you thought of becoming a teacher?
    Thanks, but teaching isn't for me. I can be lucid at times but I don't have the patience or temperament to do it day in day out.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    Carnyx said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Yes, Mr Johnson made a lot of noice about an obesity strategy when he left hospital about 18 months ago post covid, his own porkiness habing been a factor in his covid, one presumes. But very little happened. Even when people had the time and the opportunity to change their habits.
    There is a case for taxing 'sins' but again I think this misses the point slightly. For me, it's not about people being condemned for being greedy pigs, it's about harnessing the foods we already eat to improve general health silently and swiftly. To take dairy as an example, pasteurisation by heating is a very blunt instrument that destroys a lot of the nutritive content of milk - that's not only a lost benefit, it's also creating actual health problems by doing things like destroying the enzymes that digest the milk sugars, but leaving the milk sugars there. Is it any wonder therefore that people develop lactose intolerances? Scottish scientists working out of Heriott Watt developed a method of pasteurisation via pressurising the liquid, which kills pathogens but leaves a lot more of the milk content unmolested, and that to me, seems like it could be adopted universally (though I don't have the knowledge to be sure), and I believe would result in vast public health benefits.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    Ready meals are probably better than my alternative when I come home from school knackered and not wanting to have to cook, which is the local Chinese take-away.

    We all come home from work knackered. It's about finding the time to look after yourself and cooking at home is one of the most important factors in physical and mental health. Eating a super salty ready meal with 70 different ingredients and loads of added sugar takes its toll.

    Here we run up against a major problem: I am a very lazy person.

    Actually there is a second problem. I live on my own and most recipes assume multiple people. When I cook a meal that should serve four people it somehow only seems to last me for two meals. Ready meals provide good portion control.
    Well it's a good thing you live in the UK, at least then your diabetes and high blood pressure treatment will be free.
    Fair point.

    In fact I ought to be out getting some exercise rather than spending all morning on pb.

    ‘Till later.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    Ready meals are probably better than my alternative when I come home from school knackered and not wanting to have to cook, which is the local Chinese take-away.

    We all come home from work knackered. It's about finding the time to look after yourself and cooking at home is one of the most important factors in physical and mental health. Eating a super salty ready meal with 70 different ingredients and loads of added sugar takes its toll.

    Here we run up against a major problem: I am a very lazy person.

    Actually there is a second problem. I live on my own and most recipes assume multiple people. When I cook a meal that should serve four people it somehow only seems to last me for two meals. Ready meals provide good portion control.
    Unless you buy a "Serves 2" ready meal...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    edited October 2021
    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    IanB2 said:

    The day after the budget traditionally belongs to the geeks, who have been up all night crunching all the numbers in the small print that the government would rather most people missed. And what the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the independent economics thinktank, had found wasn’t altogether encouraging for Brand Rishi.

    First up, there was no help for the unemployed, and middle-earners would face £3k in tax rises. Then there were rising energy prices, inflation and low growth with which to deal. Spending on education was almost nonexistent. Debt was still vast. Tax at its highest level since 1950s. Brexit more damaging to the economy than Covid.

    Voters endorse Rishi Sunak plans and back Chancellor's handling of the economy

    Boris & Rishi v Starmer & Rachel on managing the economy - 40%/25%

    http://news.sky.com/story/budget-2021-voters-endorse-rishi-sunaks-plans-and-back-chancellors-handling-of-economy-poll-12453567
    An impressive poll lead that may not see its way to the next election (unless that election is in early 2022).

    There is a bumpy ride ahead. What follows 5% or 6% inflation when we are expectant of less than 2% could be brutal. If inflation takes interest rates with it, Sunak better hope he's already been moved into another high office of state.
    I have been giving some thought to the general media commentary that all the budget benefits will be lost to high inflation in 2022, and have come to the conclusion that they are missing the point

    Rishi, or indeed any chancellor, would have been in far greater difficulty in 2022 if he had not increased he NLW by 6.6% and addressed the UC taper, as this increase will encourage further increases across industry and wages will rise across the board to mitigate inflation

    Furthermore, we may underestimate people's ability to adapt to circumstances, and with the substantial increase in energy costs people will adjust by wearing heavier clothes, base layers, overcoats and scarves as my wife and I did living in the NE of Scotland, and in my case in Berwick on Tweed, when on occasions the frost in the early morning was coated on the inside of our windows, we had no central heating, and hot water came only from the back boiler behind the coal fire in the lounge, which my Father lit early every morning. (Mid 1950s)

    As far as I am aware nobody has an answer to the inflation caused by the world coming out of covid but the idea that increasing wages adds to inflation is quite frankly not relevant as we attempt to balance the economy post covid

    I expect interest rates will rise by 1% or a little more to dampen inflation but this is nowhere near the 15% threatened all those years ago
    Once the inflation train gets going it is hard to stop. If the interest rates go much more than 1%, get ready Rishy Washy. Not the virus that has caused the crisis but the government policy in response. That will get looked at more when the loan interest rates rise on homes.
    They have political protection since there was consensus on Covid requiring a big state response. However, Labour can take a cue from the Cons' mendacious but ruthlessly effective line on the GFC where they managed to airbrush away a similar consensus (on spending and light touch regulation) and associate the pain with the Labour government. Ditto required here. Falling living standards and wrecked public finances are happening on the Tories watch after many years in power and Labour's task is to stick them with it. They need to make "but it was Covid!" from Johnson/Sunak come over to the public like "it started in America!" did from Brown/Darling.
    But it was Covid. Obviously. Also I would point out that at every turn the Labour Party has argued for things that would make public finances more wrecked. The public is well aware of this.

    Perhaps the Labour Party should stick it to the Tories by arguing for a lesser state response now - pivot on civil liberties - I've said this before. But what do they do? They want Plan B now.
    And it also "started in America". I think the public - or enough of them - can be made to associate this terrible financial mess with Tory incompetence. There's just enough truth there to make it stick. Eg, the £37 billion pissed away to consultants on a useless track and trace system. It's about the mood and the messaging. Won't be easy but I think it's possible.
    I agree it started in America. That's obvious too. Track and trace was always going to be useless. I said so on here. Labour were one of the outfits that pressurised the government to proceeding with it at pace.
    But we're talking about the public, Stocky, not you. They don't drilldown like that. So what I'm looking for is a nice surge of "they're in charge, it's all their fault, what a shower" sentiment. Only fair that this happens. It's the rules of the game.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    Ready meals are probably better than my alternative when I come home from school knackered and not wanting to have to cook, which is the local Chinese take-away.

    We all come home from work knackered. It's about finding the time to look after yourself and cooking at home is one of the most important factors in physical and mental health. Eating a super salty ready meal with 70 different ingredients and loads of added sugar takes its toll.

    Here we run up against a major problem: I am a very lazy person.

    Actually there is a second problem. I live on my own and most recipes assume multiple people. When I cook a meal that should serve four people it somehow only seems to last me for two meals. Ready meals provide good portion control.
    Cook in bulk. Freeze in portions....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    SavantaComRes

    NEW INDYREF2 POLLING:

    YES: 48%
    NO: 52%

    Yes: 45%
    No: 48%
    Don't know: 7%

    Should there be a referendum?
    Yes: 45%
    No: 47%
    Don't know: 9%

    @SavantaComRes for @TheScotsman

    Strange that.....I thought the oldies were dying off.....
  • Carnyx said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Yes, Mr Johnson made a lot of noice about an obesity strategy when he left hospital about 18 months ago post covid, his own porkiness habing been a factor in his covid, one presumes. But very little happened. Even when people had the time and the opportunity to change their habits.
    There is a case for taxing 'sins' but again I think this misses the point slightly. For me, it's not about people being condemned for being greedy pigs, it's about harnessing the foods we already eat to improve general health silently and swiftly. To take dairy as an example, pasteurisation by heating is a very blunt instrument that destroys a lot of the nutritive content of milk - that's not only a lost benefit, it's also creating actual health problems by doing things like destroying the enzymes that digest the milk sugars, but leaving the milk sugars there. Is it any wonder therefore that people develop lactose intolerances? Scottish scientists working out of Heriott Watt developed a method of pasteurisation via pressurising the liquid, which kills pathogens but leaves a lot more of the milk content unmolested, and that to me, seems like it could be adopted universally (though I don't have the knowledge to be sure), and I believe would result in vast public health benefits.
    One last thing before I go: I spent the first eighteen years of my life on a dairy farm, drinking copious amounts of unpasteurised, whole milk. I’m not sure how much it helped…
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    MaxPB said:



    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.

    Personally I eat virtually nothing else, for convenience reasons, and they taste fine to me and I'm in excellent health because of other stuff I do to look after myself. I think this is actually the sort of nanny-state silver-bullet stuff that shouldn't happen (would you REALLY make them illegal???) - the Government should focus on big-picture issues that can certainly include dietary advice but should also provide adequate public services.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    So the heart condition (WPW) I was diagnosed with while at university was down to my diet? Or perhaps I was born with it https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/wolff-parkinson-white-syndrome/
    The NHS isn't being kept busy by the incidence of WPW to my knowledge, it's being kept busy by diabetes, heart disease, asthma, cancer, and recently by those who sadly haven't enjoyed robust enough health to recover independently from COVID. Those things most certainly are down to environmental factors, of which diet is a huge part.
    But you started by saying that the NHS should be obsolete. How could it then have treated my condition?
    I apologise for hyperbole in that instance. Of course the NHS wouldn't be completely obsolete - at any rate even if disease were to be conquered it would be needed for broken bones and other injuries.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625

    MaxPB said:



    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.

    Personally I eat virtually nothing else, for convenience reasons, and they taste fine to me and I'm in excellent health because of other stuff I do to look after myself. I think this is actually the sort of nanny-state silver-bullet stuff that shouldn't happen (would you REALLY make them illegal???) - the Government should focus on big-picture issues that can certainly include dietary advice but should also provide adequate public services.
    Your salt intake must be interesting....
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047

    Carnyx said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Yes, Mr Johnson made a lot of noice about an obesity strategy when he left hospital about 18 months ago post covid, his own porkiness habing been a factor in his covid, one presumes. But very little happened. Even when people had the time and the opportunity to change their habits.
    There is a case for taxing 'sins' but again I think this misses the point slightly. For me, it's not about people being condemned for being greedy pigs, it's about harnessing the foods we already eat to improve general health silently and swiftly. To take dairy as an example, pasteurisation by heating is a very blunt instrument that destroys a lot of the nutritive content of milk - that's not only a lost benefit, it's also creating actual health problems by doing things like destroying the enzymes that digest the milk sugars, but leaving the milk sugars there. Is it any wonder therefore that people develop lactose intolerances? Scottish scientists working out of Heriott Watt developed a method of pasteurisation via pressurising the liquid, which kills pathogens but leaves a lot more of the milk content unmolested, and that to me, seems like it could be adopted universally (though I don't have the knowledge to be sure), and I believe would result in vast public health benefits.
    One last thing before I go: I spent the first eighteen years of my life on a dairy farm, drinking copious amounts of unpasteurised, whole milk. I’m not sure how much it helped…
    Well, you lived to tell the tale.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149

    Carnyx said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Yes, Mr Johnson made a lot of noice about an obesity strategy when he left hospital about 18 months ago post covid, his own porkiness habing been a factor in his covid, one presumes. But very little happened. Even when people had the time and the opportunity to change their habits.
    There is a case for taxing 'sins' but again I think this misses the point slightly. For me, it's not about people being condemned for being greedy pigs, it's about harnessing the foods we already eat to improve general health silently and swiftly. To take dairy as an example, pasteurisation by heating is a very blunt instrument that destroys a lot of the nutritive content of milk - that's not only a lost benefit, it's also creating actual health problems by doing things like destroying the enzymes that digest the milk sugars, but leaving the milk sugars there. Is it any wonder therefore that people develop lactose intolerances? Scottish scientists working out of Heriott Watt developed a method of pasteurisation via pressurising the liquid, which kills pathogens but leaves a lot more of the milk content unmolested, and that to me, seems like it could be adopted universally (though I don't have the knowledge to be sure), and I believe would result in vast public health benefits.
    I was actrually thinking also of government intervention - indeed, of the kind Mr Johnson himself mooted, dealiong with food producers and suppliers as well as consumers' self-responsibility. Food standards - and actually reversing the public health funding cuts of the last decades - would be an important element.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Carnyx said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Yes, Mr Johnson made a lot of noice about an obesity strategy when he left hospital about 18 months ago post covid, his own porkiness habing been a factor in his covid, one presumes. But very little happened. Even when people had the time and the opportunity to change their habits.
    There is a case for taxing 'sins' but again I think this misses the point slightly. For me, it's not about people being condemned for being greedy pigs, it's about harnessing the foods we already eat to improve general health silently and swiftly. To take dairy as an example, pasteurisation by heating is a very blunt instrument that destroys a lot of the nutritive content of milk - that's not only a lost benefit, it's also creating actual health problems by doing things like destroying the enzymes that digest the milk sugars, but leaving the milk sugars there. Is it any wonder therefore that people develop lactose intolerances? Scottish scientists working out of Heriott Watt developed a method of pasteurisation via pressurising the liquid, which kills pathogens but leaves a lot more of the milk content unmolested, and that to me, seems like it could be adopted universally (though I don't have the knowledge to be sure), and I believe would result in vast public health benefits.
    One last thing before I go: I spent the first eighteen years of my life on a dairy farm, drinking copious amounts of unpasteurised, whole milk. I’m not sure how much it helped…
    I don't think this milk stuff has much relevance to the inhabitants of Planet Sane
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Yes, Mr Johnson made a lot of noice about an obesity strategy when he left hospital about 18 months ago post covid, his own porkiness habing been a factor in his covid, one presumes. But very little happened. Even when people had the time and the opportunity to change their habits.
    There is a case for taxing 'sins' but again I think this misses the point slightly. For me, it's not about people being condemned for being greedy pigs, it's about harnessing the foods we already eat to improve general health silently and swiftly. To take dairy as an example, pasteurisation by heating is a very blunt instrument that destroys a lot of the nutritive content of milk - that's not only a lost benefit, it's also creating actual health problems by doing things like destroying the enzymes that digest the milk sugars, but leaving the milk sugars there. Is it any wonder therefore that people develop lactose intolerances? Scottish scientists working out of Heriott Watt developed a method of pasteurisation via pressurising the liquid, which kills pathogens but leaves a lot more of the milk content unmolested, and that to me, seems like it could be adopted universally (though I don't have the knowledge to be sure), and I believe would result in vast public health benefits.
    One last thing before I go: I spent the first eighteen years of my life on a dairy farm, drinking copious amounts of unpasteurised, whole milk. I’m not sure how much it helped…
    I don't think this milk stuff has much relevance to the inhabitants of Planet Sane
    What I'm not clear about is the importance of the enzymes digesting the milk sugars: if they haven't done it in the milk, they certainly wont' do it in the drinker's stomach when the stomach acids denature the enzymes and kill their activity.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    edited October 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Missed this poll on the useless nonentity

    SKS doing well 20%, badly 60%, who the fook is SKS 20%

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1454022225229668352

    And, yet, when YouGov ask who would be the best PM Johnson only has a six point lead over Starmer.

    Which exactly matches the Tories six point lead over Labour with Yougov today then.


    Yes, so the budget has had a modest positive effect, just as most of us expected. The by-elections last night showed much the same general picture."Doing well" is always a dodgy question as it covers both "I think he's be a good PM" (plenty would agree up to a point) and "I think he's being successful" (obviously not, so far).

    I don't actually think that there are many floating voters. There's ca. 40% who either like the Tories and want them in office or like Johnson/Rishi or both, feel they're doing their best and forgive any slipups. There's ca. 40% who are implacably waiting for the chance to get rid of them, regardless of how they feel about Starmer or anyone else, and will vote for whoever is best placed in their seats to do it. There's 10% who vote for minor or national parties. And there's 10% who do float around. So we're not seeing much swing against the Government and we won't see much swingback either.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    edited October 2021
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Facemasks really doing the job in Wales then with its highest infection rate in the UK. Almost conclude they are worse than useless in a real world setting

    Copy/paste from a previous thread:

    I've been thinking about how to best explain why the "Wales / England, masks / maskless" comparisons don't work. It's a car analogy.

    Person A: "Using winter tyres in the summer uses more petrol, so it's better to shift to summer tyres when it's warm."
    Person B: "Ah-ha, but I'm using winter tyres here in Norfolk and you're using summer tyres there in Braemar, and my fuel efficiency is the same as yours! Therefore it makes no difference!"
    Person A: "Yes, because I'm forever driving up steep hills, and you're not. It would be worse again for me if I was using winter tyres"

    Obviously, this vignette also proves nothing, but try to keep it in mind when you think about bulk comparisons between two different places implementing different policies.

    The claim is that masks lower infection rates compared to not using them.
    The claim is NOT that masks make your infection rates lower than unmasked places.

    It's a subtlety that can easily be lost in a debate, but it's a vital one for any system where multiple independent variables control a dependent variable (which is say basically everything in the real world).
    While that's true the argument doesn't help us to work out how useful facemasks are, and therefore whether they should be the focus of public policy.

    What we can say is that one of two things must be true. Either enforcing face mask usage at this stage of the pandemic results in more transmission, or there are other differences between Wales and England that have more of an effect on transmission than face mask usage.

    I would suggest that public policy would be better directed towards those other differences, working out what they are and making the most of them to reduce transmission.
    If those other differences are, for example, crowded housing then the prospects for meaningful change in the short term are nil. You decide first if you want to apply policy pressure on a perceived problem, then you decide what measures are available in the timescale. Lower density housing is probably desirable but a decades-long goal. If you want something on the days-scale, masks are part of the debate.
    Mask adherence lowers transmission (to about half?? check that, I might be misremembering).
    Yes. The differences between Wales and England might be structural differences that we can't do anything about in the short term, or they might not be. How could we work out whether they are structural and essentially fixed?

    We could look at the differences between England and Wales over time. If there were structural, fixed, differences then we would expect to see consistently higher transmission in Wales than in England. My impression is that the contrary is the case.

    Consequently your argument that the other differences, which produce a higher transmission rate in Wales are fixed is rejected.
    Input variables interact: structural issues may only manifest under certain social or environmental conditions. I'll give a toy example which is oversimplified, but illustrates what I mean.
    If you have a large commuting population, say Aberdare residents commuting to Cardiff offices. Suppose opening train windows reduces transmission dramatically. During periods of weather when having train windows open is comfortable or even desirable, you're knocking out a commuting pillar of the transmission. When the weather gets colder, the passengers close the windows and boom, transmissions spike.

    This effect wouldn't show up at all if your work/residence/travel arrangements were different (e.g. where I live there are no trains at all, in other parts of the country commuting by bike is easier - I don't recommend cycling from Cardiff to Aberdare).

    Structural factors are not always active. And if you think about it, this is the point of masks. They interrupt the transmission that comes from people crowding into the same bus/train/shop/pub etc. If everyone wfh and had everything delivered and didn't mix in any way, masks would be pretty pointless. That structure of society isn't realistic or desirable, so masks have a realistic role if we want to take advantage of them.
    I'd suggest that improving ventilation is one of those things that isn't structural that we might want to concentrate public policy onto rather than face masks.

    It also seems unlikely that there will be significantly stronger effects from inadequate ventilation or commuting in Wales than in England.

    What this discussion tells me is that we do not know why there is higher transmission in Wales, and I think we ought to find that out before mandating face masks that we know are not the most important factor at play.

    We're no longer in the emergency phase of the pandemic where we simply have to do anything and everything in the hope that something works. We've had nearly two years to gather and analyse evidence and we have the advantage from vaccines, so we can act more slowly on the basis of good evidence.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea of ready meals, as long as the content is great. There's also nothing wrong with 'processed' foods per se - fermented vegetables, sourdough bread, yoghurt - these are all food processing and they enhance the digestibility of the food and the bioavailability of the nutrients within.

    But I agree most supermarket ready meals are pretty nasty.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Selebian said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-59084446
    Kathleen Stock resigns

    This is sad news, imho. I haven't followed events particularly closely, but from what I've seen there is nothing in he actions that should have led to her being treated the way she has been. I'm not saying that I agree completely with her views (nor that I disagree - I haven't read her books) but freedom of speech is important. It is those who threaten that who should be made to leave.

    There's a difficult balancing act with freedom of speech on the other side and the right to protest, but if (from wikipedia) police were right to have "advised Stock to take precautions for her safety, including installing CCTV at her home and using bodyguards on campus" then the people making that necessary should have been exlcuded from the campus.

    The trouble with freedom of speech arguments is they work both ways. If you should have the right to call me an idiot then I (and my army of twitter followers) must have the right to call you an idiot and to urge your employer to sack you, and to urge your employer's customers to boycott it. It's all free speech.

    And the other problem is people who bang on about free speech assume we live in America where there are constitutional protections, rather than here where free speech has long been constrained by censorship and defamation laws.
    The history of free speech in Britain is rather interesting, and revealing of the national character.

    We're rather proud of our centuries-long tradition of free speech, even though it's never been as free as we imagine. Mostly this rests on speech, and particularly publishing, being notably freer in parliamentary Britain than in the enlightened despotisms of the European continent of the 18th and 19th centuries.

    There's been a large degree of cultural censure against speaking indiscreetly. The idea of things that are known but not talked about, or of topics not suitable for polite society. Where there's a certain highly-admired style of making polite insults, rather than vulgar ones.

    You see something of this in the House of Commons, where Parliamentary privilege allows MPs to speak publicly about matters that would put them at risk of defamation proceedings if said outside the chamber, but any suggestion that another MP has lied is not at all tolerated, regardless of the facts of the situation.

    The attempt to create new social norms in what is acceptable speech around gender issues is therefore something of a dramatic break with our past informal ways of regulating speech, and an attempt to take advantage of those patterns of behaviour to avoid criticism.
    An interesting point. It reminds me of the idea of a 'cage of norms' which came up a lot in the book The Narrow Corridor: How Nations Struggle for Liberty, which seemed essentially to be about how cultural traditions can be the biggest factor in creating or restricting liberty far more than anything official or legal, and how that cage can become more or less restrictive.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Windies not doing all that well against Bangladesh. Early days, of course!

    Is there such a thing as "early days" in a T20 match?
    Wait until you've seen a rain shortened T20 of 4-5 overs apiece.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    Ready meals are probably better than my alternative when I come home from school knackered and not wanting to have to cook, which is the local Chinese take-away.

    We all come home from work knackered. It's about finding the time to look after yourself and cooking at home is one of the most important factors in physical and mental health. Eating a super salty ready meal with 70 different ingredients and loads of added sugar takes its toll.

    Here we run up against a major problem: I am a very lazy person.

    Actually there is a second problem. I live on my own and most recipes assume multiple people. When I cook a meal that should serve four people it somehow only seems to last me for two meals. Ready meals provide good portion control.
    Some of this is just snobbishness. What is wrong with these for example? https://www.about.sainsburys.co.uk/news/latest-news/2021/06-01-21-my-goodness

    How many people cooking for 1 or 2 from scratch would get such a diverse variety of vegetables into their diet?
    There's nothing wrong with them inherently. People should try making them better rather than just declare as a whole they are bad.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    edited October 2021
    Some of this is just snobbishness. What is wrong with these for example? https://www.about.sainsburys.co.uk/news/latest-news/2021/06-01-21-my-goodness

    How many people cooking for 1 or 2 from scratch would get such a diverse variety of vegetables into their diet?

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    Ready meals are probably better than my alternative when I come home from school knackered and not wanting to have to cook, which is the local Chinese take-away.

    We all come home from work knackered. It's about finding the time to look after yourself and cooking at home is one of the most important factors in physical and mental health. Eating a super salty ready meal with 70 different ingredients and loads of added sugar takes its toll.

    Here we run up against a major problem: I am a very lazy person.

    Actually there is a second problem. I live on my own and most recipes assume multiple people. When I cook a meal that should serve four people it somehow only seems to last me for two meals. Ready meals provide good portion control.
    Some of this is just snobbishness. What is wrong with these for example? https://www.about.sainsburys.co.uk/news/latest-news/2021/06-01-21-my-goodness

    How many people cooking for 1 or 2 from scratch would get such a diverse variety of vegetables into their diet?
    A lot of things can be portion frozen (pretty much all rice dishes for example).

    And a lot of things can be frozen that might surprise you.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Yes, Mr Johnson made a lot of noice about an obesity strategy when he left hospital about 18 months ago post covid, his own porkiness habing been a factor in his covid, one presumes. But very little happened. Even when people had the time and the opportunity to change their habits.
    There is a case for taxing 'sins' but again I think this misses the point slightly. For me, it's not about people being condemned for being greedy pigs, it's about harnessing the foods we already eat to improve general health silently and swiftly. To take dairy as an example, pasteurisation by heating is a very blunt instrument that destroys a lot of the nutritive content of milk - that's not only a lost benefit, it's also creating actual health problems by doing things like destroying the enzymes that digest the milk sugars, but leaving the milk sugars there. Is it any wonder therefore that people develop lactose intolerances? Scottish scientists working out of Heriott Watt developed a method of pasteurisation via pressurising the liquid, which kills pathogens but leaves a lot more of the milk content unmolested, and that to me, seems like it could be adopted universally (though I don't have the knowledge to be sure), and I believe would result in vast public health benefits.
    One last thing before I go: I spent the first eighteen years of my life on a dairy farm, drinking copious amounts of unpasteurised, whole milk. I’m not sure how much it helped…
    I don't think this milk stuff has much relevance to the inhabitants of Planet Sane
    What I'm not clear about is the importance of the enzymes digesting the milk sugars: if they haven't done it in the milk, they certainly wont' do it in the drinker's stomach when the stomach acids denature the enzymes and kill their activity.
    If that were a comprehensive description of the activity of enzymes, we wouldn't produce them in our own saliva.
  • kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    Ready meals are probably better than my alternative when I come home from school knackered and not wanting to have to cook, which is the local Chinese take-away.

    We all come home from work knackered. It's about finding the time to look after yourself and cooking at home is one of the most important factors in physical and mental health. Eating a super salty ready meal with 70 different ingredients and loads of added sugar takes its toll.

    Here we run up against a major problem: I am a very lazy person.

    Actually there is a second problem. I live on my own and most recipes assume multiple people. When I cook a meal that should serve four people it somehow only seems to last me for two meals. Ready meals provide good portion control.
    Some of this is just snobbishness. What is wrong with these for example? https://www.about.sainsburys.co.uk/news/latest-news/2021/06-01-21-my-goodness

    How many people cooking for 1 or 2 from scratch would get such a diverse variety of vegetables into their diet?
    There's nothing wrong with them inherently. People should try making them better rather than just declare as a whole they are bad.
    The disappointing thing is the consumer is not that interested. M&S had a good range of healthier, and tastier ready meals a couple of years ago, generally available at 3 for £10. Most of that has now disappeared, replaced with stuff less tasty, less nutritious and priced around £4-£4.50 rarely discounted (apart from on day of best before). Not sure if that is down to the Ocado deal, Brexit, global supply chains or consumer taste, probably a mix of all 4.

    Now Sainsbury's imo have the best range of healthy ready meals.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Yes, Mr Johnson made a lot of noice about an obesity strategy when he left hospital about 18 months ago post covid, his own porkiness habing been a factor in his covid, one presumes. But very little happened. Even when people had the time and the opportunity to change their habits.
    There is a case for taxing 'sins' but again I think this misses the point slightly. For me, it's not about people being condemned for being greedy pigs, it's about harnessing the foods we already eat to improve general health silently and swiftly. To take dairy as an example, pasteurisation by heating is a very blunt instrument that destroys a lot of the nutritive content of milk - that's not only a lost benefit, it's also creating actual health problems by doing things like destroying the enzymes that digest the milk sugars, but leaving the milk sugars there. Is it any wonder therefore that people develop lactose intolerances? Scottish scientists working out of Heriott Watt developed a method of pasteurisation via pressurising the liquid, which kills pathogens but leaves a lot more of the milk content unmolested, and that to me, seems like it could be adopted universally (though I don't have the knowledge to be sure), and I believe would result in vast public health benefits.
    One last thing before I go: I spent the first eighteen years of my life on a dairy farm, drinking copious amounts of unpasteurised, whole milk. I’m not sure how much it helped…
    I don't think this milk stuff has much relevance to the inhabitants of Planet Sane
    Happily I don't live there. From what I hear it sounds a bit shit.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    edited October 2021

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    Ready meals are probably better than my alternative when I come home from school knackered and not wanting to have to cook, which is the local Chinese take-away.

    We all come home from work knackered. It's about finding the time to look after yourself and cooking at home is one of the most important factors in physical and mental health. Eating a super salty ready meal with 70 different ingredients and loads of added sugar takes its toll.
    The other thing is that needs to be re-introduced is cooking in bulk. And using the freezer.

    I make Bolognese and various tomato sauces in bulk (for example), freeze them using a silicon tray (sold for making soap bars) into potion sized "bricks".

    I also cook in bulk and use the dish over several days.

    Both practises get an "ugh" from those who have been trained by the cooking shows that the only edible food is that which has been cooked 10 minutes before.
    Personally I do that using muffin trays.

    Currently have them for stock portions, blackberries and blueberries (for crumbles), toppings and experimenting with spag bol nearly-finished topping.

    The portions then get put in a plastic bag.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    So the heart condition (WPW) I was diagnosed with while at university was down to my diet? Or perhaps I was born with it https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/wolff-parkinson-white-syndrome/
    The NHS isn't being kept busy by the incidence of WPW to my knowledge, it's being kept busy by diabetes, heart disease, asthma, cancer, and recently by those who sadly haven't enjoyed robust enough health to recover independently from COVID. Those things most certainly are down to environmental factors, of which diet is a huge part.
    Not all cancer is down to life choices. How much do you estimate is? Its probably lower than you think. Even lung cancer is not 100% down to smoking.

    My leukeamia has no known lifestyle risks - it just happened when two genes stuck together in the wrong place and wrong time. We can do a lot to reduce diseases, but it will never completely vanish from the human existence.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454
    edited October 2021
    Matt W - "A lot of things can be portion frozen (pretty much all rice dishes for example).

    And a lot of things can be frozen that might surprise you."

    ----------------

    I am not criticising batch cooking, it is a great idea that works for many. Can the people who say all ready meals are bad explain what is bad about the dishes I have linked to? Open to persuasion here but simply proclaiming something does not make it true.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Yes, Mr Johnson made a lot of noice about an obesity strategy when he left hospital about 18 months ago post covid, his own porkiness habing been a factor in his covid, one presumes. But very little happened. Even when people had the time and the opportunity to change their habits.
    There is a case for taxing 'sins' but again I think this misses the point slightly. For me, it's not about people being condemned for being greedy pigs, it's about harnessing the foods we already eat to improve general health silently and swiftly. To take dairy as an example, pasteurisation by heating is a very blunt instrument that destroys a lot of the nutritive content of milk - that's not only a lost benefit, it's also creating actual health problems by doing things like destroying the enzymes that digest the milk sugars, but leaving the milk sugars there. Is it any wonder therefore that people develop lactose intolerances? Scottish scientists working out of Heriott Watt developed a method of pasteurisation via pressurising the liquid, which kills pathogens but leaves a lot more of the milk content unmolested, and that to me, seems like it could be adopted universally (though I don't have the knowledge to be sure), and I believe would result in vast public health benefits.
    One last thing before I go: I spent the first eighteen years of my life on a dairy farm, drinking copious amounts of unpasteurised, whole milk. I’m not sure how much it helped…
    I don't think this milk stuff has much relevance to the inhabitants of Planet Sane
    What I'm not clear about is the importance of the enzymes digesting the milk sugars: if they haven't done it in the milk, they certainly wont' do it in the drinker's stomach when the stomach acids denature the enzymes and kill their activity.
    If that were a comprehensive description of the activity of enzymes, we wouldn't produce them in our own saliva.
    But salivary amylase IS inactivated in the stomach (though lingual lipase isn't, actually, to be fair). And the problems with milk sugars come when the consumers don't produce the necessary enzyme in their onw stomachs. So the enzymes in milk can#'t very well be doing the job.
  • HYUFD said:

    SavantaComRes

    NEW INDYREF2 POLLING:

    YES: 48%
    NO: 52%

    Yes: 45%
    No: 48%
    Don't know: 7%

    Should there be a referendum?
    Yes: 45%
    No: 47%
    Don't know: 9%

    @SavantaComRes for @TheScotsman

    So including don't knows then Yes on 45% ie exactly zero change from 2014, despite Brexit and only committed Yes voters want another indyref2.

    So Boris can easily continue to refuse to grant an indyref2
    What’s your explanation for the 7% pt drop in the No vote?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    MattW said:

    Some of this is just snobbishness. What is wrong with these for example? https://www.about.sainsburys.co.uk/news/latest-news/2021/06-01-21-my-goodness

    How many people cooking for 1 or 2 from scratch would get such a diverse variety of vegetables into their diet?

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    Excellent post. It is beyond me why the government is obsessed with telling people what to do vis a vis their social lives, but has done the cube root of sod all on encouraging exercise, home cookery and taxing the living shit out of the rubbish processed garbage that passes for ‘food’ in this country.
    Getting rid of all ready meals would be a huge net gain for the nation. They're universally terrible.
    Ready meals are probably better than my alternative when I come home from school knackered and not wanting to have to cook, which is the local Chinese take-away.

    We all come home from work knackered. It's about finding the time to look after yourself and cooking at home is one of the most important factors in physical and mental health. Eating a super salty ready meal with 70 different ingredients and loads of added sugar takes its toll.

    Here we run up against a major problem: I am a very lazy person.

    Actually there is a second problem. I live on my own and most recipes assume multiple people. When I cook a meal that should serve four people it somehow only seems to last me for two meals. Ready meals provide good portion control.
    Some of this is just snobbishness. What is wrong with these for example? https://www.about.sainsburys.co.uk/news/latest-news/2021/06-01-21-my-goodness

    How many people cooking for 1 or 2 from scratch would get such a diverse variety of vegetables into their diet?
    A lot of things can be portion frozen (pretty much all rice dishes for example).

    And a lot of things can be frozen that might surprise you.

    Cooking for one is a pain in the but, but it beats the intake of chemicals and additives from prepared meals from supermarkets.
    Cooking can be quick, A decent meal in 20 or 30 minutes. A range of vegetables either steamed, roasted or cooked in a single pan dish add very little time but lots of flavour.
    Lunch today is celeriac and asparagus soup I made yesterday evening between work and going to a yoga class. Some frozen some given away, all good pure fresh ingredients.
    There is no excuse of lack of 'time' for cooking. There is always time.
  • There is a statistical difference between the YouGov opinion polls and the others.

    The difference is that YouGov have Labour 3% lower, and the Greens 3% higher, based on October polls.

    The other pollster which have a significant difference is Redfield & Wilton Strategies which have Labour and the Lib Dems around 2% higher than the others (taking into account YouGov's adjustment).
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047

    The NHS is an interesting 'problem' to consider because in an ideal world it would be obsolete. In my opinion, the health of the nation should be looked at in the round. Improvements in our general condition would not only result in a reduced burden on the NHS, but also a reduced need for social care in later life, and a more intelligent, innovative, and capable population. These improvements won't come from bleating at people to 'eat more vegetables', which is a fairly meaningless goal, since all vegetables are not created equal. They will come from looking hard at our dietary staples, and taking simple but effective steps to make them more nourishing and health giving. That should start with milk, where improving the current methods of pasteurisation and homogenisation could transform the health-giving properties of the product, and work its way through vegetables, meat, cooking fats etc.

    So the heart condition (WPW) I was diagnosed with while at university was down to my diet? Or perhaps I was born with it https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/wolff-parkinson-white-syndrome/
    The NHS isn't being kept busy by the incidence of WPW to my knowledge, it's being kept busy by diabetes, heart disease, asthma, cancer, and recently by those who sadly haven't enjoyed robust enough health to recover independently from COVID. Those things most certainly are down to environmental factors, of which diet is a huge part.
    Not all cancer is down to life choices. How much do you estimate is? Its probably lower than you think. Even lung cancer is not 100% down to smoking.

    My leukeamia has no known lifestyle risks - it just happened when two genes stuck together in the wrong place and wrong time. We can do a lot to reduce diseases, but it will never completely vanish from the human existence.
    Some things are down to our own environmental factors, some are down to those of our parents or even grandparents. I believe a vast proportion of all disease is caused this way. Even minor things like problematical skin or a propensity to shortsightedness that 'run in the family'. I don't say that sitting in judgement - I have had various autoimmune conditions in the past.
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