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There’s nothing more English than discussing the granular intricacies of the English class system while making out that one is a special case who has slipped the surly bonds of class.

One of the joys of marrying an immigrant, I don't think my wife has ever spoken about or in terms of class, and certainly doesn't think that way. Simply a non-issue.

All immigrants are lower class, until and unless they achieve something, with the exception of the Jews, perhaps the Japanese, and to an extent the French

We have an example here with @TSE - he's still the striving lower class migrant but with really nice shirts. And good luck to him

It's this energy which powers Britain today

Yes. One thing that always struck me about Prince Phillip was he never lost touch with his working class roots.

@antoguerrera
BREAKING 🇬🇧 🇫🇷 🇮🇹 🇵🇱 🇪🇺 🇫🇮 🇩🇪

Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin

We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine.
We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed.
We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation.
We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests.
We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations.
We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity.
We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.

ENDS

What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.

And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero

Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.

Fat chance of that anytime soon, Ukraine couldn't even defeat Putin and force the Russians out of Ukraine when they had military aid from the US via Biden let alone now Trump is withdrawing US military aid to Zelensky

Thing is though HYUFD, even if Russia managed to pile into Ukraine, they would be left with an Afghanistan situation for potentially decades. Ukrainians wouldn’t just say “it’s a fair cop, we’re Russian now”, it would be an ongoing brutal bloodletting backed by weapons and intelligence from Europe. Might not be as good as having US backing but Russia cannot indefinitely take that so it’s in their interests for a settlement.

Am whilst Ukraine didn’t defeat Putin, Putin didn’t defeat Ukraine even with his paper advantages. They won’t roll over.

@antoguerrera
BREAKING 🇬🇧 🇫🇷 🇮🇹 🇵🇱 🇪🇺 🇫🇮 🇩🇪

Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin

We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine.
We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed.
We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation.
We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests.
We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations.
We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity.
We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.

ENDS

What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.

And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero

Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.

The original Cassius Clay was quite a man. For example:

During a political debate in 1843, Clay survived his first assassination attempt by Sam Brown, a hired gunman. Jerking his Bowie knife out for retaliation, Clay happened to pull its silver-tipped scabbard up over his heart. Brown's bullet struck the scabbard and embedded in the silver. Despite having been shot in the chest, Clay tackled Brown. He cut off Brown's nose, took out one eye, and possibly cut off an ear before throwing Brown over an embankment.[9][10]

In 1845, Clay began publishing an anti-slavery newspaper, True American, in Lexington, Kentucky. Within a month, he received death threats, had to arm himself, and regularly barricaded the armored doors of his newspaper office for protection, besides setting up two four-pounder cannons inside. Shortly afterward, a mob of about 60 men broke into his office and seized his printing equipment. To protect his venture, Clay set up a publication center in Cincinnati, Ohio, a center of abolitionists in the free state, but continued to reside in Kentucky.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassius_Marcellus_Clay

There's much more.

@antoguerrera
BREAKING 🇬🇧 🇫🇷 🇮🇹 🇵🇱 🇪🇺 🇫🇮 🇩🇪

Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin

We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine.
We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed.
We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation.
We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests.
We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations.
We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity.
We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.

ENDS

What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.

I fxcking loathe this government .

To see an 89 year old arrested for holding a banner . At a time when the justice system is close to collapse we have a spectacle where the police are rounding up hundreds of people including a blind man in a wheelchair .

This country has lost its mind .

An alternative view is that these people are deliberately wasting police time when the police could be doing something else. There are many legal ways to protest about what is happening in Gaza. You can also legally protest about the heavy handed application of terrorism laws in this specific case. They know exactly what they are doing.

The police don’t have to waste time arresting Gaza protesters. They could be gainfully employed stopping shoplifters. However, that’s more difficult and risky than arresting 89 year olds, so protesters will get their attention.

Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard.
Almost as if they're a different species.

And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.

On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.

Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.

I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.

I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.

There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.

Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.

No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?

So you think that I should look down on them too?

Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.

The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.

My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.

Every tier in society looks down most aggressively on the tier just a tiny bit below it.

“An arriviste, certainly, who can't shoot straight and in Jopling's damning phrase 'bought all his own furniture', but who at any rate seeks the cachet. All the nouves in the party think he is the real thing” (Alan Clarke on Heseltine).

Heseltine wordsmithwas the real thing; it was Clarke that was the dilettante.

Clarkie’s old man was a legend, must have been so disappointed with his son.

God that was meant to say “”Clarke” not “Clarkie”. To clarify, Alan Clarke and I didn’t play Sunday league football together.

Maybe you did, with A(l)lan or his brothers Wayne, Kelvin, Derek and Frank. Likewise if you ever jammed with the Hollies, Alan Clarke was your lead singer. On the other hand if you are thinking of the world class swordsman, wordsmith and the son of "Civilisation" write, Kenneth, that would be Alan Clark.

Thank you for your correction, Lord Clark of Civilisation was the legend.