politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » So far Cameron just has the edge on trust in the mighty bat
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » So far Cameron just has the edge on trust in the mighty battle between him and Boris
One of the best non-voting intention polling indicators to the referendum could well be the question above used by ComRes at the weekend in its IoS Sunday Mirror online poll.
Comments
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First!0
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Speaking as a Tory I've spent a decade trusting Cameron and I'm not changing that now. I just don't agree with him here.
I'm not sure a campaign to undermine trust would work in the time left. A campaign to reassure questioning voters who are sceptical about the EU but could go either way could work in the time remaining. Voters can both trust and disagree with people, even their own party leader and PM.
Leave needs to win by winning voters to trust their own convictions and turn out for Leave.0 -
I wonder what the question and options for answer were!! Faced with a straight “whom do you trust more, Cameron or Johnson” I think I’d answer “neither”!
It wouldn’t D/k either. I know I don’t trust either of them very much. I suppose if I were pushed I’d have to say Cameron, but it’s 8% against 5% or something like that.0 -
I think the views of many on here and indeed on ConHome are not representative at all of the views of the country as a whole on DC. Boris has the advantage of not being PM and yet still is less trusted. Says a lot.Philip_Thompson said:Speaking as a Tory I've spent a decade trusting Cameron and I'm not changing that now. I just don't agree with him here.
I'm not sure a campaign to undermine trust would work in the time left. A campaign to reassure questioning voters who are sceptical about the EU but could go either way could work in the time remaining. Voters can both trust and disagree with people, even their own party leader and PM.
Leave needs to win by winning voters to trust their own convictions and turn out for Leave.0 -
No I don't think it says much. Cameron has the advantage of being PM. It's not a disadvantage to be PM it's a position voters put trust in. Being PM provides an aura of authority and competence so long as you're respected already that being Mayor simply does not.felix said:
I think the views of many on here and indeed on ConHome are not representative at all of the views of the country as a whole on DC. Boris has the advantage of not being PM and yet still is less trusted. Says a lot.Philip_Thompson said:Speaking as a Tory I've spent a decade trusting Cameron and I'm not changing that now. I just don't agree with him here.
I'm not sure a campaign to undermine trust would work in the time left. A campaign to reassure questioning voters who are sceptical about the EU but could go either way could work in the time remaining. Voters can both trust and disagree with people, even their own party leader and PM.
Leave needs to win by winning voters to trust their own convictions and turn out for Leave.
For almost all of the last six years as PM and over a decade as party leader Cameron has had a positive level of trust especially in party voters but also in the general public as a whole. Attempting to undermine that will likely fail, attempting to circumnavigate it may not.0 -
Yes but you have to consider the specifics of Cameron operating during an extremely difficult economic period, the unprecedented problems of migration and the natural scepticism in the country about the EU. To me it is little short of miraculous that he is so far ahead in the polls right now and am frankly surprised at the high levels f trust remaining. Those figures for Con voters should make sobering reading for those on here who decry him so much.Philip_Thompson said:
No I don't think it says much. Cameron has tried advantage of being PM. It's not a disadvantage to be PM it's a position voters put trust in. Being PM provides an aura of authority and competence so long as you're respected already that being Mayor simply does not.felix said:
I think the views of many on here and indeed on ConHome are not representative at all of the views of the country as a whole on DC. Boris has the advantage of not being PM and yet still is less trusted. Says a lot.Philip_Thompson said:Speaking as a Tory I've spent a decade trusting Cameron and I'm not changing that now. I just don't agree with him here.
I'm not sure a campaign to undermine trust would work in the time left. A campaign to reassure questioning voters who are sceptical about the EU but could go either way could work in the time remaining. Voters can both trust and disagree with people, even their own party leader and PM.
Leave needs to win by winning voters to trust their own convictions and turn out for Leave.0 -
So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html0 -
Boris was/is great as London Mayor because and only because he kept Ken Livingstone out.
The qualities required for Prime Minister are completely different. Boris is the Con Party conference warm up guy, entertain the troops, be jolly etc etc.. That's his future role.0 -
On your final point I completely agree which is why I think OGH's suggestion is incorrect if not somewhat mischievous.felix said:
Yes but you have to consider the specifics of Cameron operating during an extremely difficult economic period, the unprecedented problems of migration and the natural scepticism in the country about the EU. To me it is little short of miraculous that he is so far ahead in the polls right now and am frankly surprised at the high levels f trust remaining. Those figures for Con voters should make sobering reading for those on here who decry him so much.Philip_Thompson said:
No I don't think it says much. Cameron has tried advantage of being PM. It's not a disadvantage to be PM it's a position voters put trust in. Being PM provides an aura of authority and competence so long as you're respected already that being Mayor simply does not.felix said:
I think the views of many on here and indeed on ConHome are not representative at all of the views of the country as a whole on DC. Boris has the advantage of not being PM and yet still is less trusted. Says a lot.Philip_Thompson said:Speaking as a Tory I've spent a decade trusting Cameron and I'm not changing that now. I just don't agree with him here.
I'm not sure a campaign to undermine trust would work in the time left. A campaign to reassure questioning voters who are sceptical about the EU but could go either way could work in the time remaining. Voters can both trust and disagree with people, even their own party leader and PM.
Leave needs to win by winning voters to trust their own convictions and turn out for Leave.
Given global problems that's typically a time when voters put more, not less, trust in "serious" politicians like the PM. Appeal to voters scepticism and intelligence. Remain is running a rather patronising campaign so far and if Vote Leave can get their act together then this could be won though I still expect a healthy Remain victory.0 -
Just read your post and the url not his article but of course it's not a migrants fault if you can't be arsed to get educated or learn a tradr or just look for work.Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html
But Blair deserves a portion if the blame for that for helping build the problems in today's welfare system that made not working an acceptable lifestyle choice.0 -
Tony arguing against the closed shop. There was a time when the Telegraph would have agreed with him.Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html0 -
The graph is somewhat misleading. 39% of Labour voters, and 30% of all voters, did not express an opinion.0
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Quite so Roger, but aside from calling people racist they'd be more than happy to co-opt Tony in UKIP.Roger said:
Tony arguing against the closed shop. There was a time when the Telegraph would have agreed with him.Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html
Being Tony means never having to say you're wrong.0 -
Both Dave and Boris are happy to tell fibs if it helps them. I agree that neither are very trustworthy.OldKingCole said:I wonder what the question and options for answer were!! Faced with a straight “whom do you trust more, Cameron or Johnson” I think I’d answer “neither”!
It wouldn’t D/k either. I know I don’t trust either of them very much. I suppose if I were pushed I’d have to say Cameron, but it’s 8% against 5% or something like that.
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OGH has an 'agenda'? Perish the thought.Philip_Thompson said:
On your final point I completely agree which is why I think OGH's suggestion is incorrect if not somewhat mischievous.felix said:
Yes but you have to consider the specifics of Cameron operating during an extremely difficult economic period, the unprecedented problems of migration and the natural scepticism in the country about the EU. To me it is little short of miraculous that he is so far ahead in the polls right now and am frankly surprised at the high levels f trust remaining. Those figures for Con voters should make sobering reading for those on here who decry him so much.Philip_Thompson said:
No I don't think it says much. Cameron has tried advantage of being PM. It's not a disadvantage to be PM it's a position voters put trust in. Being PM provides an aura of authority and competence so long as you're respected already that being Mayor simply does not.felix said:
I think the views of many on here and indeed on ConHome are not representative at all of the views of the country as a whole on DC. Boris has the advantage of not being PM and yet still is less trusted. Says a lot.Philip_Thompson said:Speaking as a Tory I've spent a decade trusting Cameron and I'm not changing that now. I just don't agree with him here.
I'm not sure a campaign to undermine trust would work in the time left. A campaign to reassure questioning voters who are sceptical about the EU but could go either way could work in the time remaining. Voters can both trust and disagree with people, even their own party leader and PM.
Leave needs to win by winning voters to trust their own convictions and turn out for Leave.
Given global problems that's typically a time when voters put more, not less, trust in "serious" politicians like the PM. Appeal to voters scepticism and intelligence. Remain is running a rather patronising campaign so far and if Vote Leave can get their act together then this could be won though I still expect a healthy Remain victory.
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How can you tell when politicians are lying?SouthamObserver said:
Both Dave and Boris are happy to tell fibs if it helps them. I agree that neither are very trustworthy.OldKingCole said:I wonder what the question and options for answer were!! Faced with a straight “whom do you trust more, Cameron or Johnson” I think I’d answer “neither”!
It wouldn’t D/k either. I know I don’t trust either of them very much. I suppose if I were pushed I’d have to say Cameron, but it’s 8% against 5% or something like that.
Their lips move.
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Only one of the reasons for opposing immigration is that skilled migrants take jobs. Personally it's something I'm entirely happy with, although as I still think we should be able to decide who gets in and who doesn't.Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html0 -
In this they are identical to every other politician - hence the current economic deficit trust among voters pretty well everywhere.SouthamObserver said:
Both Dave and Boris are happy to tell fibs if it helps them. I agree that neither are very trustworthy.OldKingCole said:I wonder what the question and options for answer were!! Faced with a straight “whom do you trust more, Cameron or Johnson” I think I’d answer “neither”!
It wouldn’t D/k either. I know I don’t trust either of them very much. I suppose if I were pushed I’d have to say Cameron, but it’s 8% against 5% or something like that.0 -
I don't think so. He's just making a case.Alanbrooke said:
Quite so Roger, but aside from calling people racist they'd be more than happy to co-opt Tony in UKIP.Roger said:
Tony arguing against the closed shop. There was a time when the Telegraph would have agreed with him.Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html
Being Tony means never having to say you're wrong.
As they say in advertising 'life's a pitch'0 -
... and there is not a single contributor to this site, who if they are or if they became a politician would tell the truth , the whole truth and nothing but the truth... and it is ridiculous to expect any politician to be absolutely truthful.ydoethur said:
How can you tell when politicians are lying?SouthamObserver said:
Both Dave and Boris are happy to tell fibs if it helps them. I agree that neither are very trustworthy.OldKingCole said:I wonder what the question and options for answer were!! Faced with a straight “whom do you trust more, Cameron or Johnson” I think I’d answer “neither”!
It wouldn’t D/k either. I know I don’t trust either of them very much. I suppose if I were pushed I’d have to say Cameron, but it’s 8% against 5% or something like that.
Their lips move.
Just ask Nick Palmer !0 -
It looks as if Boris Johnson is building up a big majority in Leave's safe seat while losing badly in the key marginal.0
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I'm not sure we'd get a truthful answer!!SquareRoot said:
... and there is not a single contributor to this site, who if they are or if they became a politician would tell the truth , the whole truth and nothing but the truth... and it is ridiculous to expect any politician to be absolutely truthful.ydoethur said:
How can you tell when politicians are lying?SouthamObserver said:
Both Dave and Boris are happy to tell fibs if it helps them. I agree that neither are very trustworthy.OldKingCole said:I wonder what the question and options for answer were!! Faced with a straight “whom do you trust more, Cameron or Johnson” I think I’d answer “neither”!
It wouldn’t D/k either. I know I don’t trust either of them very much. I suppose if I were pushed I’d have to say Cameron, but it’s 8% against 5% or something like that.
Their lips move.
Just ask Nick Palmer !0 -
I had a call from Populus the other day and told them to mind their own business, makes you wonder who responds to pollsters.0
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Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html0 -
Reminds me of when I was being coached for my first job interview.Roger said:
I don't think so. He's just making a case.Alanbrooke said:
Quite so Roger, but aside from calling people racist they'd be more than happy to co-opt Tony in UKIP.Roger said:
Tony arguing against the closed shop. There was a time when the Telegraph would have agreed with him.Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html
Being Tony means never having to say you're wrong.
As they say in advertising 'life's a pitch'
Coach: "you need to persuade the panel that you're the best candidate".
IA: "But I don't know anything about any of the others."
Coach: "That doesn't matter."
IA: "It does if I want to be honest."
Coach: "that's your choice - to be honest or to be a success."
IA: "Good morning".
***
And I have the same argument, more or less, on here every day.
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Correct.. The limit of what Nick Palmer has previously said when he was an MP was that he never posted anything on PB he knew not to be true.. easy to post something that isn't true if you don't bother to check...NorfolkTilIDie said:
I'm not sure we'd get a truthful answer!!SquareRoot said:
... and there is not a single contributor to this site, who if they are or if they became a politician would tell the truth , the whole truth and nothing but the truth... and it is ridiculous to expect any politician to be absolutely truthful.ydoethur said:
How can you tell when politicians are lying?SouthamObserver said:
Both Dave and Boris are happy to tell fibs if it helps them. I agree that neither are very trustworthy.OldKingCole said:I wonder what the question and options for answer were!! Faced with a straight “whom do you trust more, Cameron or Johnson” I think I’d answer “neither”!
It wouldn’t D/k either. I know I don’t trust either of them very much. I suppose if I were pushed I’d have to say Cameron, but it’s 8% against 5% or something like that.
Their lips move.
Just ask Nick Palmer !0 -
Which would be a problem if the country weren't a single constituency...!AlastairMeeks said:It looks as if Boris Johnson is building up a big majority in Leave's safe seat while losing badly in the key marginal.
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Nice people.blackburn63 said:I had a call from Populus the other day and told them to mind their own business, makes you wonder who responds to pollsters.
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AlastairMeeks said:
It looks as if Boris Johnson is building up a big majority in Leave's safe seat while losing badly in the key marginal.
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Cameron claiming there was a massive return of power to UK hit my trust in him a lot. It was such a stretch even Richard Nabavi couldn't back Cameron on it!! Then the stuff about jungle camps in Kent and the EU defending against North Korea made it hit the floor. DC has clearly decided an approach of saying whatever he needs to to win this referendum.0
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Its good to see you employ your charm offensive indiscriminately.blackburn63 said:I had a call from Populus the other day and told them to mind their own business, makes you wonder who responds to pollsters.
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I think it was a metaphor. He needs to sway Tories who might be tempted by leave but trust camerons judgement, being adored by UKIP voters who were going to vote leave anyway won't help.ThreeQuidder said:
Which would be a problem if the country weren't a single constituency...!AlastairMeeks said:It looks as if Boris Johnson is building up a big majority in Leave's safe seat while losing badly in the key marginal.
Fair point I guess. Still significant proportions of those who did though,gnorn said:The graph is somewhat misleading. 39% of Labour voters, and 30% of all voters, did not express an opinion.
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The laws of supply and demand are not perfect but the alternative system gave us the Trabant in Germany , the Skoda in Poland and the Lada in Russia.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html To pretend that the unemployed are always the victims of an evil conspiracy is as silly as saying they are all lazy sods. 0 -
Yep, strangers asking me my age group, name and address, only weirdos would respond.felix said:
Its good to see you employ your charm offensive indiscriminately.blackburn63 said:I had a call from Populus the other day and told them to mind their own business, makes you wonder who responds to pollsters.
You left the country you were so tired of it, now you're busy telling us what to do.0 -
Quite
ThreeQuidder said:
Which would be a problem if the country weren't a single constituency...!AlastairMeeks said:It looks as if Boris Johnson is building up a big majority in Leave's safe seat while losing badly in the key marginal.
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On the face of it these findings would seem to be good for Remain. The only important column-in that they're likely to be influenced by Cameron or Johnson-is the Tory one.
Though the numbers are 54/27 in favour of Cameron in terms of trust I imagine they would be reversed if you asked about the EU.
So Cameron just has to persuade those who trust him to vote with him.0 -
Would you rather he said things to help the Leave vote? Your problem is you prefer the Leave fibs to Remain'sNorfolkTilIDie said:Cameron claiming there was a massive return of power to UK hit my trust in him a lot. It was such a stretch even Richard Nabavi couldn't back Cameron on it!! Then the stuff about jungle camps in Kent and the EU defending against North Korea made it hit the floor. DC has clearly decided an approach of saying whatever he needs to to win this referendum.
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Your opinion is a pollster's business, isn't it?blackburn63 said:I had a call from Populus the other day and told them to mind their own business, makes you wonder who responds to pollsters.
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That was my momentary reaction. The point, though, is that the UKIP portion is voting Leave anyway - it makes no odds that they trust Boris. It's in the Tory and Labour-voting mass that the referendum will be won.ThreeQuidder said:
Which would be a problem if the country weren't a single constituency...!AlastairMeeks said:It looks as if Boris Johnson is building up a big majority in Leave's safe seat while losing badly in the key marginal.
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Ditto. Whilst I'm glad he's on my team for HMG, he's spoilt his reputation for me over his Remain behaviour.
And fellow Remainians telling me I'm stupid for reacting like this aren't doing themselves any favours.NorfolkTilIDie said:Cameron claiming there was a massive return of power to UK hit my trust in him a lot. It was such a stretch even Richard Nabavi couldn't back Cameron on it!! Then the stuff about jungle camps in Kent and the EU defending against North Korea made it hit the floor. DC has clearly decided an approach of saying whatever he needs to to win this referendum.
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Though he's no leftist, I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html0 -
Oh dear - I am a UK citizen paying full UK [and Spanish] taxes and have the protection of a British passport. It's sad to hear such bitterness so early in the morning but fortunately the clear blue sky outside and the balmy temperatures beckon and sweeten the pill immeasurably.blackburn63 said:
Yep, strangers asking me my age group, name and address, only weirdos would respond.felix said:
Its good to see you employ your charm offensive indiscriminately.blackburn63 said:I had a call from Populus the other day and told them to mind their own business, makes you wonder who responds to pollsters.
You left the country you were so tired of it, now you're busy telling us what to do.0 -
'I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.'
It was in fact a nice example of how 'big business' chiefs have a confused half-understanding of international trade theory and of course frequently conflate their own interests or those of their firms with broader economic welfare.0 -
O/T
New system to challenge council parking tickets if you think they are unfair. ( the council must have signed up though to the system)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/bills/article-3487966/Been-slapped-unfair-parking-fine-s-easier-fight-thanks-free-online-tool.html0 -
Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing. The fact is the country's benefit structure still needs considerable reform to ensure that work always pays. Skilled immigrants are a boon to the economy.Sean_F said:
Though he's no leftist, I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html0 -
Quite. Boris so far is not looking like the game changer.Wanderer said:
That was my momentary reaction. The point, though, is that the UKIP portion is voting Leave anyway - it makes no odds that they trust Boris. It's in the Tory and Labour-voting mass that the referendum will be won.ThreeQuidder said:
Which would be a problem if the country weren't a single constituency...!AlastairMeeks said:It looks as if Boris Johnson is building up a big majority in Leave's safe seat while losing badly in the key marginal.
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I'm sure they just put you down as UKIPblackburn63 said:I had a call from Populus the other day and told them to mind their own business, makes you wonder who responds to pollsters.
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Or worseRoger said:
I'm sure they just put you down as UKIPblackburn63 said:I had a call from Populus the other day and told them to mind their own business, makes you wonder who responds to pollsters.
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I'm the least bitter person you could wish to meet, but I'm always suspicious of other people telling me how good life is, as a rule they're hiding something.felix said:
Oh dear - I am a UK citizen paying full UK [and Spanish] taxes and have the protection of a British passport. It's sad to hear such bitterness so early in the morning but fortunately the clear blue sky outside and the balmy temperatures beckon and sweeten the pill immeasurably.blackburn63 said:
Yep, strangers asking me my age group, name and address, only weirdos would respond.felix said:
Its good to see you employ your charm offensive indiscriminately.blackburn63 said:I had a call from Populus the other day and told them to mind their own business, makes you wonder who responds to pollsters.
You left the country you were so tired of it, now you're busy telling us what to do.
Enjoy the sangria in the Pig & Whistle.
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felix said:
Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing. The fact is the country's benefit structure still needs considerable reform to ensure that work always pays. Skilled immigrants are a boon to the economy.</Sean_F said:
Though he's no leftist, I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html
One could just as well say that free migration is keeping wages artificially low. Growth in real wages has lagged growth in GDP since 2010.0 -
If we said you were clever would that do the trick?Plato_Says said:Ditto. Whilst I'm glad he's on my team for HMG, he's spoilt his reputation for me over his Remain behaviour.
And fellow Remainians telling me I'm stupid for reacting like this aren't doing themselves any favours.NorfolkTilIDie said:Cameron claiming there was a massive return of power to UK hit my trust in him a lot. It was such a stretch even Richard Nabavi couldn't back Cameron on it!! Then the stuff about jungle camps in Kent and the EU defending against North Korea made it hit the floor. DC has clearly decided an approach of saying whatever he needs to to win this referendum.
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Sounds like you want to restrict immigration to skilled people only.felix said:
Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing. The fact is the country's benefit structure still needs considerable reform to ensure that work always pays. Skilled immigrants are a boon to the economy.Sean_F said:
Though he's no leftist, I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html0 -
Cameron is a good politician. He thought he'd be rather good at it, and he is, because he gives the impression that he considers things on their merits. No politician does, but he pretends to.
However, the EU is a weak point for him because he actually believes in it. Thus his pretend "renegotiation " jarred. If he stuck to hugging huskies and crocodile tears over inequality, he'd do better. People want to believe politicians despite all the evidence against them, but obvious lying ruins the picture.0 -
Yes as long as Cameron is favoured over Boris amongst Tory voters Remain should get enough Tory votes to win0
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Hard to disagree with that.AlastairMeeks said:It looks as if Boris Johnson is building up a big majority in Leave's safe seat while losing badly in the key marginal.
0 -
'Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing'
So you would favour no controls at all, and complete free movement, from all parts of the world?
Presumably on this basis, you would ban trades unions as well?
And abolish all planning controls (extending the analogy to another market)?0 -
The only Pig & whistle I know used to be a gay bar round the corner from Buck Palace in the 70s. Ah happy Sundays.blackburn63 said:
I'm the least bitter person you could wish to meet, but I'm always suspicious of other people telling me how good life is, as a rule they're hiding something.felix said:
Oh dear - I am a UK citizen paying full UK [and Spanish] taxes and have the protection of a British passport. It's sad to hear such bitterness so early in the morning but fortunately the clear blue sky outside and the balmy temperatures beckon and sweeten the pill immeasurably.blackburn63 said:
Yep, strangers asking me my age group, name and address, only weirdos would respond.felix said:
Its good to see you employ your charm offensive indiscriminately.blackburn63 said:I had a call from Populus the other day and told them to mind their own business, makes you wonder who responds to pollsters.
You left the country you were so tired of it, now you're busy telling us what to do.
Enjoy the sangria in the Pig & Whistle. 0 -
The argument needs to be made that trade has nothing to do with govt, it is about one person or group providing something to another at an agreed price. I don't need a politician to regulate or authorise my visit to the barber.
Not only do politicians interfere, they interfere in areas they have no knowledge or experience of. Govt is too big and self important, the root cause of all problems.0 -
Sean_F said:
Which is why I didn't say it. However the EU free movement is a bigger problem in the UK because of the non-contributory nature of the benefit system - which simply does not exist in many other EU countries. Maybe a lesson for the UK - from the EU?felix said:
Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing. The fact is the country's benefit structure still needs considerable reform to ensure that work always pays. Skilled immigrants are a boon to the economy.</Sean_F said:
Though he's no leftist, I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html
One could just as well say that free migration is keeping wages artificially low. Growth in real wages has lagged growth in GDP since 2010.</p>0 -
More important to reform the UK benefit structure and ensure our unemployed are incentivised to compete for the jobs available.blackburn63 said:
Sounds like you want to restrict immigration to skilled people only.felix said:
Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing. The fact is the country's benefit structure still needs considerable reform to ensure that work always pays. Skilled immigrants are a boon to the economy.Sean_F said:
Though he's no leftist, I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html0 -
Depends whether you do it at top end or bottom end. Increasing unskilled wages would definitely be a good thing.felix said:
Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing. The fact is the country's benefit structure still needs considerable reform to ensure that work always pays. Skilled immigrants are a boon to the economy.Sean_F said:
Though he's no leftist, I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html0 -
Endless monotonous days of sunny mind-bending ennui tempered by gin and PB.felix said:
Oh dear - I am a UK citizen paying full UK [and Spanish] taxes and have the protection of a British passport. It's sad to hear such bitterness so early in the morning but fortunately the clear blue sky outside and the balmy temperatures beckon and sweeten the pill immeasurably.blackburn63 said:
Yep, strangers asking me my age group, name and address, only weirdos would respond.felix said:
Its good to see you employ your charm offensive indiscriminately.blackburn63 said:I had a call from Populus the other day and told them to mind their own business, makes you wonder who responds to pollsters.
You left the country you were so tired of it, now you're busy telling us what to do.
We get the picture.0 -
Maybe, but I'm interested to hear that you would restrict immigration when you previously spoke fondly of freedom of movement.felix said:
More important to reform the UK benefit structure and ensure our unemployed are incentivised to compete for the jobs available.blackburn63 said:
Sounds like you want to restrict immigration to skilled people only.felix said:
Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing. The fact is the country's benefit structure still needs considerable reform to ensure that work always pays. Skilled immigrants are a boon to the economy.Sean_F said:
Though he's no leftist, I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html
0 -
I don't think there will be a game changer, at least in terms of personalities. Maybe a black swan event.felix said:
Quite. Boris so far is not looking like the game changer.Wanderer said:
That was my momentary reaction. The point, though, is that the UKIP portion is voting Leave anyway - it makes no odds that they trust Boris. It's in the Tory and Labour-voting mass that the referendum will be won.ThreeQuidder said:
Which would be a problem if the country weren't a single constituency...!AlastairMeeks said:It looks as if Boris Johnson is building up a big majority in Leave's safe seat while losing badly in the key marginal.
On topic the politician I would trust over those two is Gove.0 -
That's quite a large straw man you've built up there. Now you can go pay with your matches and feel much better.runnymede said:'Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing'
So you would favour no controls at all, and complete free movement, from all parts of the world?
Presumably on this basis, you would ban trades unions as well?
And abolish all planning controls (extending the analogy to another market)?0 -
Meanwhile Return of Super Tuesday, Wrath of Trump approaches. If Trump loses Florida it would dent his momentum badly (and deprive him of a truckload of delegates). But I don't think he will lose Florida. More intriguing is Ohio. Would it be a deathblow not just to Kasich but to the whole (non-Cruz) stop-Trump operation if Trump won there?
Most likely he wins Florida, loses Ohio, and the circus moves on.0 -
That's true, but people who've decided to vote Leave are more likely to report a UKIP VI. (I'm assuming that as usual these figures are broken down by current VI not 2015 vote).Wanderer said:
That was my momentary reaction. The point, though, is that the UKIP portion is voting Leave anyway - it makes no odds that they trust Boris. It's in the Tory and Labour-voting mass that the referendum will be won.ThreeQuidder said:
Which would be a problem if the country weren't a single constituency...!AlastairMeeks said:It looks as if Boris Johnson is building up a big majority in Leave's safe seat while losing badly in the key marginal.
0 -
As ever I'd have more respect for those arguing in favour of an open door immigration policy if they were fully committed to abolishing the welfare state and the NHS. But right now we have the worst of both worlds.
0 -
I generally favour freedom of movement. I also favour a level playing field in respect of the benefits structure. I think there is support among many EU countries for that.blackburn63 said:
Maybe, but I'm interested to hear that you would restrict immigration when you previously spoke fondly of freedom of movement.felix said:
More important to reform the UK benefit structure and ensure our unemployed are incentivised to compete for the jobs available.blackburn63 said:
Sounds like you want to restrict immigration to skilled people only.felix said:
Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing. The fact is the country's benefit structure still needs considerable reform to ensure that work always pays. Skilled immigrants are a boon to the economy.Sean_F said:
Though he's no leftist, I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html0 -
I don't agree about Gove and more importantly he does not have national appeal.nigel4england said:
I don't think there will be a game changer, at least in terms of personalities. Maybe a black swan event.felix said:
Quite. Boris so far is not looking like the game changer.Wanderer said:
That was my momentary reaction. The point, though, is that the UKIP portion is voting Leave anyway - it makes no odds that they trust Boris. It's in the Tory and Labour-voting mass that the referendum will be won.ThreeQuidder said:
Which would be a problem if the country weren't a single constituency...!AlastairMeeks said:It looks as if Boris Johnson is building up a big majority in Leave's safe seat while losing badly in the key marginal.
On topic the politician I would trust over those two is Gove.0 -
This game isn't going to be won in the next six weeks. Boris is level on trust and marginally ahead on right for Britain v right for career - few people would have expected either of those.felix said:
Quite. Boris so far is not looking like the game changer.Wanderer said:
That was my momentary reaction. The point, though, is that the UKIP portion is voting Leave anyway - it makes no odds that they trust Boris. It's in the Tory and Labour-voting mass that the referendum will be won.ThreeQuidder said:
Which would be a problem if the country weren't a single constituency...!AlastairMeeks said:It looks as if Boris Johnson is building up a big majority in Leave's safe seat while losing badly in the key marginal.
The numbers are good enough for Boris to get a hearing - that's good enough for now.0 -
Excellent point. Virtue signalling at its best (or worse) from irresponsible people.tlg86 said:As ever I'd have more respect for those arguing in favour of an open door immigration policy if they were fully committed to abolishing the welfare state and the NHS. But right now we have the worst of both worlds.
0 -
It depends, doesn't it? Increasing the wages of unskilled workers is clearly very good for unskilled workers, but the subsequent price rises will affect everyone. Isn't that the right's argument against a living wage?NorfolkTilIDie said:
Depends whether you do it at top end or bottom end. Increasing unskilled wages would definitely be a good thing.felix said:
Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing. The fact is the country's benefit structure still needs considerable reform to ensure that work always pays. Skilled immigrants are a boon to the economy.Sean_F said:
Though he's no leftist, I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html
0 -
Innocent_Abroad said:
Your opinion is a pollster's business, isn't it?blackburn63 said:I had a call from Populus the other day and told them to mind their own business, makes you wonder who responds to pollsters.
0 -
I broadly agree but think abolition of the NHS is a step too far. With radical reform it could match many European systems. The problem is it has cult status in the UK. I'm not sure Brexit will help the move towards a more open view of alternative systems. The UK is a great country but it is not perfect.tlg86 said:As ever I'd have more respect for those arguing in favour of an open door immigration policy if they were fully committed to abolishing the welfare state and the NHS. But right now we have the worst of both worlds.
0 -
You're all over the place, you talk of the benefits of skilled migration, the implication that unskilled is bad but chastise those who want to control immigration.felix said:
I generally favour freedom of movement. I also favour a level playing field in respect of the benefits structure. I think there is support among many EU countries for that.blackburn63 said:
Maybe, but I'm interested to hear that you would restrict immigration when you previously spoke fondly of freedom of movement.felix said:
More important to reform the UK benefit structure and ensure our unemployed are incentivised to compete for the jobs available.blackburn63 said:
Sounds like you want to restrict immigration to skilled people only.felix said:
Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing. The fact is the country's benefit structure still needs considerable reform to ensure that work always pays. Skilled immigrants are a boon to the economy.Sean_F said:
Though he's no leftist, I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html
0 -
There's nothing left wing about asking people to pay higher prices for goods and services.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html
0 -
'That's quite a large straw man you've built up there. Now you can go pay with your matches and feel much better.'
No - you need to try thinking things through rather than just mouthing banalities or repeating simplistic arguments you have heard somewhere or other but don't really understand.0 -
Probably. Though I think this rather overstates matters:Wanderer said:Meanwhile Return of Super Tuesday, Wrath of Trump approaches. If Trump loses Florida it would dent his momentum badly (and deprive him of a truckload of delegates). But I don't think he will lose Florida. More intriguing is Ohio. Would it be a deathblow not just to Kasich but to the whole (non-Cruz) stop-Trump operation if Trump won there?
Most likely he wins Florida, loses Ohio, and the circus moves on.
https://twitter.com/EsotericCD/status/7090865702598819860 -
Says a person posting under a pseudonym.Innocent_Abroad said:
Your opinion is a pollster's business, isn't it?blackburn63 said:I had a call from Populus the other day and told them to mind their own business, makes you wonder who responds to pollsters.
0 -
Might be the sun going to my head but I'm not sure I've chastised anyone today - in fact you're the one who have been a bit of a sourpuss because I chose to opt for free movement.blackburn63 said:
You're all over the place, you talk of the benefits of skilled migration, the implication that unskilled is bad but chastise those who want to control immigration.felix said:
I generally favour freedom of movement. I also favour a level playing field in respect of the benefits structure. I think there is support among many EU countries for that.blackburn63 said:
Maybe, but I'm interested to hear that you would restrict immigration when you previously spoke fondly of freedom of movement.felix said:
More important to reform the UK benefit structure and ensure our unemployed are incentivised to compete for the jobs available.blackburn63 said:
Sounds like you want to restrict immigration to skilled people only.felix said:
Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing. The fact is the country's benefit structure still needs considerable reform to ensure that work always pays. Skilled immigrants are a boon to the economy.Sean_F said:
Though he's no leftist, I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html0 -
Take me through that slowly. Please.blackburn63 said:
Says a person posting under a pseudonym.Innocent_Abroad said:
Your opinion is a pollster's business, isn't it?blackburn63 said:I had a call from Populus the other day and told them to mind their own business, makes you wonder who responds to pollsters.
0 -
No, the right's argument is that if you increase people's minimum wage above the level of value they have the potential to create for an employer then you artificially price them out of the labour market (assuming no government subsidies) and trap them in long-term unemployment with all the social, spiritual and economic issues that createsSouthamObserver said:
It depends, doesn't it? Increasing the wages of unskilled workers is clearly very good for unskilled workers, but the subsequent price rises will affect everyone. Isn't that the right's argument against a living wage?NorfolkTilIDie said:
Depends whether you do it at top end or bottom end. Increasing unskilled wages would definitely be a good thing.felix said:
Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing. The fact is the country's benefit structure still needs considerable reform to ensure that work always pays. Skilled immigrants are a boon to the economy.Sean_F said:
Though he's no leftist, I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html0 -
Right but domestic unskilled labour costs are only a small chunk of the cost base in the stuff you buy as much of it goes to land costs, energy costs, material costs, skilled labour costs, foreign labour costs etc. So a big increase in UK low skill wages would help poor people's incomes a lot, and only cause a tiny increase in people's spending.SouthamObserver said:
It depends, doesn't it? Increasing the wages of unskilled workers is clearly very good for unskilled workers, but the subsequent price rises will affect everyone. Isn't that the right's argument against a living wage?NorfolkTilIDie said:
Depends whether you do it at top end or bottom end. Increasing unskilled wages would definitely be a good thing.felix said:
Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing. The fact is the country's benefit structure still needs considerable reform to ensure that work always pays. Skilled immigrants are a boon to the economy.Sean_F said:
Though he's no leftist, I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html
The Tory Right use the argument because they are representing business interest.0 -
So let's be clear, you FOR freedom of movement to the UK? So am I.felix said:
Might be the sun going to my head but I'm not sure I've chastised anyone today - in fact you're the one who have been a bit of a sourpuss because I chose to opt for free movement.blackburn63 said:
You're all over the place, you talk of the benefits of skilled migration, the implication that unskilled is bad but chastise those who want to control immigration.felix said:
I generally favour freedom of movement. I also favour a level playing field in respect of the benefits structure. I think there is support among many EU countries for that.blackburn63 said:
Maybe, but I'm interested to hear that you would restrict immigration when you previously spoke fondly of freedom of movement.felix said:
More important to reform the UK benefit structure and ensure our unemployed are incentivised to compete for the jobs available.blackburn63 said:
Sounds like you want to restrict immigration to skilled people only.felix said:
Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing. The fact is the country's benefit structure still needs considerable reform to ensure that work always pays. Skilled immigrants are a boon to the economy.Sean_F said:
Though he's no leftist, I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html
Interesting to know for the next time you come on here repeating things you vaguely heard but don't really understand.0 -
Don't forget Illinois, Missouri and North Carolina too !Wanderer said:Meanwhile Return of Super Tuesday, Wrath of Trump approaches. If Trump loses Florida it would dent his momentum badly (and deprive him of a truckload of delegates). But I don't think he will lose Florida. More intriguing is Ohio. Would it be a deathblow not just to Kasich but to the whole (non-Cruz) stop-Trump operation if Trump won there?
Most likely he wins Florida, loses Ohio, and the circus moves on.0 -
It's perhaps worth considering why this might be. Does politics attract inherently dishonest people, does it make people inherently dishonest, or is there something else behind it?SquareRoot said:
... and there is not a single contributor to this site, who if they are or if they became a politician would tell the truth , the whole truth and nothing but the truth... and it is ridiculous to expect any politician to be absolutely truthful.ydoethur said:
How can you tell when politicians are lying?SouthamObserver said:
Both Dave and Boris are happy to tell fibs if it helps them. I agree that neither are very trustworthy.OldKingCole said:I wonder what the question and options for answer were!! Faced with a straight “whom do you trust more, Cameron or Johnson” I think I’d answer “neither”!
It wouldn’t D/k either. I know I don’t trust either of them very much. I suppose if I were pushed I’d have to say Cameron, but it’s 8% against 5% or something like that.
Their lips move.
(Snip)
IMO a big problem is the combative nature of politics: it is in the interests of opponents, whether in politics or the media, to twist things. A classic example of this is the Lisbon treaty referendum, where the criticisms of Cameron are, on any subjective level, ludicrous.
(Cue Richard T and others)
Most of the time when politicians are accused of lying, the situation is more complex and unclear than a straight-out lie. Yet opponents automatically want to believe the worst.
If the media did not lie themselves and were honest in presentation, then politicians might just 'lie' less. The media do not hold politicians to account much of the time, and instead they hold their own interests and positions paramount.
However woolly wording does not help. "We intend to..." or "We would like to see" can all too easily become "We will...", yet they contain inherent get-out clauses. This is particularly important as much of what politicians want to do is out of their hands to a certain extent. Even something as simple as setting a VAT rate can be complex to do (e.g. EU law)
Basically: if any of us were put under the same microscope politicians suffer, we'd all soon be accused of lying, even if we think - or know - we are telling the truth. It's a sign of the immaturity of political reporting and debate.
That is not excusing the times when politicians tell absolute, knowing porkies. But such occasions are far fewer than some might believe.0 -
Oh dear - another sourpuss trying to put words into my mouth and then telling me off about them. You'll be telling us next you're a skilled negotiator with umpteen degrees and a swimming certfificate. What is it with the early shift leavers and the nastiness? More sleep needed? I can recommend an afternoon siesta if that helpsrunnymede said:'That's quite a large straw man you've built up there. Now you can go pay with your matches and feel much better.'
No - you need to try thinking things through rather than just mouthing banalities or repeating simplistic arguments you have heard somewhere or other but don't really understand. 0 -
I think the Conservatives will miss Cameron badly when he goes. He has the persona of Blair - a "straight kinda guy". As it happens, I voted Labour for the last time in 1992 and switched to the LDs in 1997. I didn't like Tony but I could see his appeal. The 'doing your thing, not my thing' is appealing. Until he found a subject he believed in. That, unfortunately for him, was the Iraq war.
I expected to switch back when Tony called it a day, but the election of Mrs Rochester, then the wrong pair of trousers, followed by a certified loon put the kybosh on that.
I can't believe the LDs won't take advantage when Cameron goes, there'll be a big gap in the middle to exploit.0 -
Are you and Runnymede the same rude person trying to ramp up the Brexit numbers?blackburn63 said:
So let's be clear, you FOR freedom of movement to the UK? So am I.felix said:
Might be the sun going to my head but I'm not sure I've chastised anyone today - in fact you're the one who have been a bit of a sourpuss because I chose to opt for free movement.blackburn63 said:
You're all over the place, you talk of the benefits of skilled migration, the implication that unskilled is bad but chastise those who want to control immigration.felix said:
I generally favour freedom of movement. I also favour a level playing field in respect of the benefits structure. I think there is support among many EU countries for that.blackburn63 said:
Maybe, but I'm interested to hear that you would restrict immigration when you previously spoke fondly of freedom of movement.felix said:
More important to reform the UK benefit structure and ensure our unemployed are incentivised to compete for the jobs available.blackburn63 said:
Sounds like you want to restrict immigration to skilled people only.felix said:
Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing. The fact is the country's benefit structure still needs considerable reform to ensure that work always pays. Skilled immigrants are a boon to the economy.Sean_F said:
Though he's no leftist, I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html
Interesting to know for the next time you come on here repeating things you vaguely heard but don't really understand. 0 -
Delighted to. I refused to answer personal questions to a cold caller.Innocent_Abroad said:
Take me through that slowly. Please.blackburn63 said:
Says a person posting under a pseudonym.Innocent_Abroad said:
Your opinion is a pollster's business, isn't it?blackburn63 said:I had a call from Populus the other day and told them to mind their own business, makes you wonder who responds to pollsters.
Perhaps you'd like to post your name and address on here.
Any reason why you wouldn't?
I typed it slowly, now read it slowly.
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I think I've made my point.felix said:
Are you and Runnymede the same rude person trying to ramp up the Brexit numbers?blackburn63 said:
So let's be clear, you FOR freedom of movement to the UK? So am I.felix said:
Might be the sun going to my head but I'm not sure I've chastised anyone today - in fact you're the one who have been a bit of a sourpuss because I chose to opt for free movement.blackburn63 said:
You're all over the place, you talk of the benefits of skilled migration, the implication that unskilled is bad but chastise those who want to control immigration.felix said:
I generally favour freedom of movement. I also favour a level playing field in respect of the benefits structure. I think there is support among many EU countries for that.blackburn63 said:
Maybe, but I'm interested to hear that you would restrict immigration when you previously spoke fondly of freedom of movement.felix said:
More important to reform the UK benefit structure and ensure our unemployed are incentivised to compete for the jobs available.blackburn63 said:
Sounds like you want to restrict immigration to skilled people only.felix said:
Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing. The fact is the country's benefit structure still needs considerable reform to ensure that work always pays. Skilled immigrants are a boon to the economy.Sean_F said:
Though he's no leftist, I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html
Interesting to know for the next time you come on here repeating things you vaguely heard but don't really understand.0 -
Outright lies are rare.JosiasJessop said:
It's perhaps worth considering why this might be. Does politics attract inherently dishonest people, does it make people inherently dishonest, or is there something else behind it?SquareRoot said:
... and there is not a single contributor to this site, who if they are or if they became a politician would tell the truth , the whole truth and nothing but the truth... and it is ridiculous to expect any politician to be absolutely truthful.ydoethur said:
How can you tell when politicians are lying?SouthamObserver said:
Both Dave and Boris are happy to tell fibs if it helps them. I agree that neither are very trustworthy.OldKingCole said:I wonder what the question and options for answer were!! Faced with a straight “whom do you trust more, Cameron or Johnson” I think I’d answer “neither”!
It wouldn’t D/k either. I know I don’t trust either of them very much. I suppose if I were pushed I’d have to say Cameron, but it’s 8% against 5% or something like that.
Their lips move.
(Snip)
IMO a big problem is the combative nature of politics: it is in the interests of opponents, whether in politics or the media, to twist things. A classic example of this is the Lisbon treaty referendum, where the criticisms of Cameron are, on any subjective level, ludicrous.
(Cue Richard T and others)
Most of the time when politicians are accused of lying, the situation is more complex and unclear than a straight-out lie. Yet opponents automatically want to believe the worst.
If the media did not lie themselves and were honest in presentation, then politicians might just 'lie' less. The media do not hold politicians to account much of the time, and instead they hold their own interests and positions paramount.
However woolly wording does not help. "We intend to..." or "We would like to see" can all too easily become "We will...", yet they contain inherent get-out clauses. This is particularly important as much of what politicians want to do is out of their hands to a certain extent. Even something as simple as setting a VAT rate can be complex to do (e.g. EU law)
Basically: if any of us were put under the same microscope politicians suffer, we'd all soon be accused of lying, even if we think - or know - we are telling the truth. It's a sign of the immaturity of political reporting and debate.
That is not excusing the times when politicians tell absolute, knowing porkies. But such occasions are far fewer than some might believe.
Statements that are, strictly speaking, true, while being at the same time, entirely misleading (the Clintons are excellent at this) are much more common. Implying more than you actually promise is also common.0 -
I think of them often. Especially Missouri, about which there is almost FA polling.Pulpstar said:
Don't forget Illinois, Missouri and North Carolina too !Wanderer said:Meanwhile Return of Super Tuesday, Wrath of Trump approaches. If Trump loses Florida it would dent his momentum badly (and deprive him of a truckload of delegates). But I don't think he will lose Florida. More intriguing is Ohio. Would it be a deathblow not just to Kasich but to the whole (non-Cruz) stop-Trump operation if Trump won there?
Most likely he wins Florida, loses Ohio, and the circus moves on.0 -
Indeed with you usual charm and sweetness - which is where we started. And now off to the sun for me.blackburn63 said:
I think I've made my point.felix said:
Are you and Runnymede the same rude person trying to ramp up the Brexit numbers?blackburn63 said:
So let's be clear, you FOR freedom of movement to the UK? So am I.felix said:
Might be the sun going to my head but I'm not sure I've chastised anyone today - in fact you're the one who have been a bit of a sourpuss because I chose to opt for free movement.blackburn63 said:
You're all over the place, you talk of the benefits of skilled migration, the implication that unskilled is bad but chastise those who want to control immigration.felix said:
I generally favour freedom of movement. I also favour a level playing field in respect of the benefits structure. I think there is support among many EU countries for that.blackburn63 said:
Maybe, but I'm interested to hear that you would restrict immigration when you previously spoke fondly of freedom of movement.felix said:
More important to reform the UK benefit structure and ensure our unemployed are incentivised to compete for the jobs available.blackburn63 said:
Sounds like you want to restrict immigration to skilled people only.felix said:
Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing. The fact is the country's benefit structure still needs considerable reform to ensure that work always pays. Skilled immigrants are a boon to the economy.Sean_F said:
Though he's no leftist, I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html
Interesting to know for the next time you come on here repeating things you vaguely heard but don't really understand.0 -
Good morning, everyone.
As indicated, the blue split is probably the most critical, and Cameron has a decisive advantage there. This is still very much Remain's to lose.0 -
And I spose that argument can't be used if the wage increase happens from a restricted supply of labour.Charles said:
No, the right's argument is that if you increase people's minimum wage above the level of value they have the potential to create for an employer then you artificially price them out of the labour market (assuming no government subsidies) and trap them in long-term unemployment with all the social, spiritual and economic issues that createsSouthamObserver said:
It depends, doesn't it? Increasing the wages of unskilled workers is clearly very good for unskilled workers, but the subsequent price rises will affect everyone. Isn't that the right's argument against a living wage?NorfolkTilIDie said:
Depends whether you do it at top end or bottom end. Increasing unskilled wages would definitely be a good thing.felix said:
Artificially rising wages through restriction of immigration would be a bad thing. The fact is the country's benefit structure still needs considerable reform to ensure that work always pays. Skilled immigrants are a boon to the economy.Sean_F said:
Though he's no leftist, I thought that Lord Rose was refreshingly honest in his view that rising wages would be a bad consequence of Brexit.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html0 -
It makes an interesting contrast: while Yes Scotland’s Project Fear was wrong on almost every front, Better Together’s was more or less bang on, yet at the SNP conference delegates comforted themselves by arguing that black is white while falling back on tired old tropes about Scotland sending oil revenue to the Treasury but receiving “nothing” in return (except about the same amount in Barnett consequentials). Speaker after speaker reiterated the usual sanctimonious hype about being “positive” when in fact modern Scottish nationalism relies on deeply negative arguments and sentiments.
http://m.heraldscotland.com/opinion/14341202.David_Torrance__Scottish_nationalism_and_the_inconvenient_truth/0 -
But theres something very right wing about prioritising small increases in goods and service prices than larger increases in low income wages.SouthamObserver said:
There's nothing left wing about asking people to pay higher prices for goods and services.NorfolkTilIDie said:
Its amazing how the Lefts embrace of high levels of migration has caused them to adopt Tory Right beliefs to defend it: you need to keep wages low for good of economy, the unemployed are to blame for their own laziness...Alanbrooke said:So anyway
Migration is only an issue in the UK because too many lazy sods won't borrow the money to get educated and if you disagree with that you're prejudiced / racist.
Tony on top form.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12192682/Tony-Blair-Dont-blame-migrants-for-taking-your-job.html
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Here's what you do. You rename the Department of Health 'The National Health Service' and completely re-brand it as a body that promotes good health. What is currently the NHS would be the National Treatment Service or something. This would sever the emotional dependence and mean reform could take place.felix said:
I broadly agree but think abolition of the NHS is a step too far. With radical reform it could match many European systems. The problem is it has cult status in the UK. I'm not sure Brexit will help the move towards a more open view of alternative systems. The UK is a great country but it is not perfect.tlg86 said:As ever I'd have more respect for those arguing in favour of an open door immigration policy if they were fully committed to abolishing the welfare state and the NHS. But right now we have the worst of both worlds.
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