The Bowdoin student newspaper reports that one of the tequila party’s hosts has been placed on “social probation” until March 2017, and must participate in an “educational program” and “active bystander training”. She has also been told to move out of her room and has been banned from this year’s Spring Gala.
Meanwhile, two members of the college’s student assembly are facing “impeachment proceedings” because they attended the bash.
No-one is listening to Labour because no-one is interested in what Labour has to say. Corbyn and his mates have made the party an irrelevance. The only voices that matter in this referendum are Tory ones, because they are the ones that will be making the decisions well into the future.
If Remain loses because Labour voters stay at home that will be a shocking indictment of Labour's leadership and membership.
I don't expect that Remain will lose or that Labour voters will stay at home. Voters are intelligent enough to be able to see this is an important national decision which transcends party loyalty and personal opinions they may have about Cameron or anyone else.
Hilarious bit about party loyalty, are you new to this site?
The Bowdoin student newspaper reports that one of the tequila party’s hosts has been placed on “social probation” until March 2017, and must participate in an “educational program” and “active bystander training”. She has also been told to move out of her room and has been banned from this year’s Spring Gala.
Meanwhile, two members of the college’s student assembly are facing “impeachment proceedings” because they attended the bash.
Owen Jones: "Is a Queen Victoria statue offensive? It’s about time we debated our colonial past." - More importantly, Is there a safe space we can lock up this numpty in?
No-one is listening to Labour because no-one is interested in what Labour has to say. Corbyn and his mates have made the party an irrelevance. The only voices that matter in this referendum are Tory ones, because they are the ones that will be making the decisions well into the future.
If Remain loses because Labour voters stay at home that will be a shocking indictment of Labour's leadership and membership.
I don't expect that Remain will lose or that Labour voters will stay at home. Voters are intelligent enough to be able to see this is an important national decision which transcends party loyalty and personal opinions they may have about Cameron or anyone else.
Hilarious bit about party loyalty, are you new to this site?
Not at all.
You have to remember that the UK only joined the EU in the first place because the 69 Labour MPs who voted to enter saw it as an issue that transcended party loyalty. Many of those who left Labour for the SDP were motivated partly by support for the EU. The same is true on the other side - the Tory Maastrict rebels in the early 90s almost brought down Major because they saw the EU as an issue which transcended loyalty to their government. And now the Leavers see it in the same way. Nothing hilarious about it - just a fact of political life.
The only thing I might guess is that maybe the post Super Tuesday boost was negated by the poor debate performance. That said even a distinctly average performance in the next debate should see a boost instead.
I think Rubio's votes transferring to Kasich will be beneficial, Kasich is a formidable prospect as a VP pick, Rubio isn't (even if we ignore that he is bought and paid for, thus unacceptable for Trump).
Even for a Trump-Kasich ticket Michigan is not an achievable target for the GOP. McCain lost it by 17 points to Obama, Pennsylvania and Ohio will be the targets.
Looks to me like Kasich is definitely playing for VP. Does he have any control over his delegates past the first round though ?
I'm interested in that last question too; or Rubio's if he drops out.
Donald Brind is right, I've been saying this for weeks. The tories by their own admission are obsessed by the EU whether for or against, most of Labour simply aren't bothered.
I stick by my long term prediction that Leave wins narrowly on a low turnout. Cameron is Leave's biggest strength, lefties will enjoy abstaining and see him get a kicking.
Everyone I know in the Labour Party is absolutely committed to a Remain vote. Over the past few weeks I have heard eloquent speeches in favour from some unexpected quarters including committed Corbynites and former Militants. I have had no indications from anyone, either privately or publicly, that they see this is a backdoor way of having a kick at Cameron. It is much too important for that.
Yes, same here - for members and activists. But I think Donald is right to worry about less involved Labour voters. Some will vote Leave for miscellaneous reasons from immigration to the traditional left-wing doubts to wanting to annoy Cameron. Quite a few may feel it's an internal Tory quarrel and to hell with both sides.
The problem, as I've been saying for weeks too, is not that Labour is inactive on the issue, but that it's not newsworthy on this subject - we aren't significantly split, we aren't proposing anything very different, we support membership for the same reasons we supported in 10 or 20 years ago. None of that makes the news, which works with "split" and "shocking new policy" stories (compare with Corbyn politely replying to a question with his personal view on prostitution, which is classed as A Story). So you get Alan Johnson speaking to 100 trade unionists somewhere, and perhaps 5 of them swing to Remain, while voters at large don't notice.
What can be done about it is not clear, except getting a televised debate with Alan putting the Labour case.
Owen Jones: "Is a Queen Victoria statue offensive? It’s about time we debated our colonial past." - More importantly, Is there a safe space we can lock up this numpty in?
Does anyone know if this comment beneath the article is true? jimstinks 3h ago 143 144 There is a statue of Queen Vic in Liverpool where it appears, if you look from the correct angle, that she has a penis.
No-one is listening to Labour because no-one is interested in what Labour has to say. Corbyn and his mates have made the party an irrelevance. The only voices that matter in this referendum are Tory ones, because they are the ones that will be making the decisions well into the future.
If Remain loses because Labour voters stay at home that will be a shocking indictment of Labour's leadership and membership.
I don't expect that Remain will lose or that Labour voters will stay at home. Voters are intelligent enough to be able to see this is an important national decision which transcends party loyalty and personal opinions they may have about Cameron or anyone else.
Hilarious bit about party loyalty, are you new to this site?
Not at all.
You have to remember that the UK only joined the EU in the first place because the 69 Labour MPs who voted to enter saw it as an issue that transcended party loyalty. Many of those who left Labour for the SDP were motivated partly by support for the EU. The same is true on the other side - the Tory Maastrict rebels in the early 90s almost brought down Major because they saw the EU as an issue which transcended loyalty to their government. And now the Leavers see it in the same way. Nothing hilarious about it - just a fact of political life.
This may not be about party loyalty to you or I, to assume that doesn't apply to everybody is hilarious.
No-one is listening to Labour because no-one is interested in what Labour has to say. Corbyn and his mates have made the party an irrelevance. The only voices that matter in this referendum are Tory ones, because they are the ones that will be making the decisions well into the future.
If Remain loses because Labour voters stay at home that will be a shocking indictment of Labour's leadership and membership.
I don't expect that Remain will lose or that Labour voters will stay at home. Voters are intelligent enough to be able to see this is an important national decision which transcends party loyalty and personal opinions they may have about Cameron or anyone else.
Labour supporters break about 70/30 for Leave, a very big lead, but less overwhelming than the Parliamentary party.
Anecdotal, but amongst the Labour supporters I know any suggestion of Leave is met with incredulity. They may or may not vote but they will not vote Leave.
It could be there's a class divide, on this issue.
On Yougov's excellent map, Hull, Doncaster, Blackburn, Rotherham, Barnsley, South Tyneside, Sandwell, stood out as Labour-voting Eurosceptic boroughs.
No-one is listening to Labour because no-one is interested in what Labour has to say. Corbyn and his mates have made the party an irrelevance. The only voices that matter in this referendum are Tory ones, because they are the ones that will be making the decisions well into the future.
If Remain loses because Labour voters stay at home that will be a shocking indictment of Labour's leadership and membership.
I don't expect that Remain will lose or that Labour voters will stay at home. Voters are intelligent enough to be able to see this is an important national decision which transcends party loyalty and personal opinions they may have about Cameron or anyone else.
Labour supporters break about 70/30 for Leave, a very big lead, but less overwhelming than the Parliamentary party.
Anecdotal, but amongst the Labour supporters I know any suggestion of Leave is met with incredulity. They may or may not vote but they will not vote Leave.
Sorry to bring this down to class but -
Could it be that the labour middle-class will vote in a majority to remain and the working class labour vote in a majority leave ?
I just hear leave with my labour working class friends
Owen Jones: "Is a Queen Victoria statue offensive? It’s about time we debated our colonial past." - More importantly, Is there a safe space we can lock up this numpty in? '
Owen Jones: "Is a Queen Victoria statue offensive? It’s about time we debated our colonial past." - More importantly, Is there a safe space we can lock up this numpty in?
Does anyone know if this comment beneath the article is true? jimstinks 3h ago 143 144 There is a statue of Queen Vic in Liverpool where it appears, if you look from the correct angle, that she has a penis.
No-one is listening to Labour because no-one is interested in what Labour has to say. Corbyn and his mates have made the party an irrelevance. The only voices that matter in this referendum are Tory ones, because they are the ones that will be making the decisions well into the future.
If Remain loses because Labour voters stay at home that will be a shocking indictment of Labour's leadership and membership.
I don't expect that Remain will lose or that Labour voters will stay at home. Voters are intelligent enough to be able to see this is an important national decision which transcends party loyalty and personal opinions they may have about Cameron or anyone else.
Labour supporters break about 70/30 for Leave, a very big lead, but less overwhelming than the Parliamentary party.
Anecdotal, but amongst the Labour supporters I know any suggestion of Leave is met with incredulity. They may or may not vote but they will not vote Leave.
Sorry to bring this down to class but -
Could it be that the labour middle-class will vote in a majority to remain and the working class labour vote in a majority leave ?
I just hear leave with my labour working friends.
Spot on, they may not vote but the WWC won't be voting Remain.
I would agree that there's little appetite among Labour activists for voting Leave: at the couple of meetings I went to where we discussed it, I was one of only a few who was even on the fence.
HOWEVER, even though most were planning to vote Remain, there was next to no enthusiasm for it. A few freely admitted that they didn't really care about the issue, but just couldn't stomach being on the same side as Farage. Most others said they thought on balance it didn't really make much sense to Leave and that they couldn't see any good reasons for it, but at the same time there was little passion for the EU and few people said they'd be up for doing some canvassing for the "Remain" side. The majority feeling was that it's rather like going to a job you don't particularly like, but nonetheless don't have any good alternatives lined up so you just have to plug on with it.
Maybe it's different in a more London/Guardianish CLP, but in our circle the EU just doesn't get our blood pumping.
Owen Jones: "Is a Queen Victoria statue offensive? It’s about time we debated our colonial past." - More importantly, Is there a safe space we can lock up this numpty in?
Does anyone know if this comment beneath the article is true? jimstinks 3h ago 143 144 There is a statue of Queen Vic in Liverpool where it appears, if you look from the correct angle, that she has a penis.
Owen Jones: "Is a Queen Victoria statue offensive? It’s about time we debated our colonial past." - More importantly, Is there a safe space we can lock up this numpty in? '
Just ignore the prat.
Let's tear them all down, and replace them with a suitably modern strong female leader. Suggestions on a postcard please
I would agree that there's little appetite among Labour activists for voting Leave: at the couple of meetings I went to where we discussed it, I was one of only a few who was even on the fence.
HOWEVER, even though most were planning to vote Remain, there was next to no enthusiasm for it. A few freely admitted that they didn't really care about the issue, but just couldn't stomach being on the same side as Farage. Most others said they thought on balance it didn't really make much sense to Leave and that they couldn't see any good reasons for it, but at the same time there was little passion for the EU and few people said they'd be up for doing some canvassing for the "Remain" side. Maybe it's different in a more London/Guardianish CLP, but in our circle the EU just doesn't get our blood pumping.
No-one is listening to Labour because no-one is interested in what Labour has to say. Corbyn and his mates have made the party an irrelevance. The only voices that matter in this referendum are Tory ones, because they are the ones that will be making the decisions well into the future.
If Remain loses because Labour voters stay at home that will be a shocking indictment of Labour's leadership and membership.
I don't expect that Remain will lose or that Labour voters will stay at home. Voters are intelligent enough to be able to see this is an important national decision which transcends party loyalty and personal opinions they may have about Cameron or anyone else.
Labour supporters break about 70/30 for Leave, a very big lead, but less overwhelming than the Parliamentary party.
I would agree that there's little appetite among Labour activists for voting Leave: at the couple of meetings I went to where we discussed it, I was one of only a few who was even on the fence.
HOWEVER, even though most were planning to vote Remain, there was next to no enthusiasm for it. A few freely admitted that they didn't really care about the issue, but just couldn't stomach being on the same side as Farage. Most others said they thought on balance it didn't really make much sense to Leave and that they couldn't see any good reasons for it, but at the same time there was little passion for the EU and few people said they'd be up for doing some canvassing for the "Remain" side. Maybe it's different in a more London/Guardianish CLP, but in our circle the EU just doesn't get our blood pumping.
How many can stomach being on the same side as Blair, Mandelson, Clegg, Cameron...?
"The singer Morrissey is said to be "considering very seriously" an invitation to enter the London mayoral race. An entry on his semi-official website revealed he had been asked to stand by the Animal Welfare Party."
Should he enter the contest, how is this likely to affect support for the Labour and Tory candidates respectively?
The AWP got 1% at the last Euros. With a well-known candidate I'd guess they could get 2-3%, but I'd think most will transfer to the main candidates who they'd have otherwise supported in the 2nd ballot (both of whom are arguably reasonably good on animal welfare issues). I'd expect it to damage the Green vote a bit.
Owen Jones: "Is a Queen Victoria statue offensive? It’s about time we debated our colonial past." - More importantly, Is there a safe space we can lock up this numpty in? '
Just ignore the prat.
Let's tear them all down, and replace them with a suitably modern strong female leader. Suggestions on a postcard please
A good prime minister would not be facing a referendum he didn't want, which he might well lose, which he might well lose because he so foolishly mishandled the "deal", and which, even if he wins, will probably end his career and leave his party venomously divided.
This is the achievement of a pretty bad prime minister. Because that, in the end, is what Cameron has turned out to be. Bad, with a thin veneer of accomplishment.
That is certainly the case for the prosecution against Cameron. An EU in/out referendum was arguably the one thing no Conservative Prime Minister should ever ever have allowed to happen.
Correction: An In/Out referendum in which the PM was on the wrong side.
I would agree that there's little appetite among Labour activists for voting Leave: at the couple of meetings I went to where we discussed it, I was one of only a few who was even on the fence.
HOWEVER, even though most were planning to vote Remain, there was next to no enthusiasm for it. A few freely admitted that they didn't really care about the issue, but just couldn't stomach being on the same side as Farage. Most others said they thought on balance it didn't really make much sense to Leave and that they couldn't see any good reasons for it, but at the same time there was little passion for the EU and few people said they'd be up for doing some canvassing for the "Remain" side. Maybe it's different in a more London/Guardianish CLP, but in our circle the EU just doesn't get our blood pumping.
I keep getting Facebook messages and email urging to attend my local meeting, or to join canvasses etc, but so far there haven’t been any events, meetings or teams within 50 or so miles
I would agree that there's little appetite among Labour activists for voting Leave: at the couple of meetings I went to where we discussed it, I was one of only a few who was even on the fence.
HOWEVER, even though most were planning to vote Remain, there was next to no enthusiasm for it. A few freely admitted that they didn't really care about the issue, but just couldn't stomach being on the same side as Farage. Most others said they thought on balance it didn't really make much sense to Leave and that they couldn't see any good reasons for it, but at the same time there was little passion for the EU and few people said they'd be up for doing some canvassing for the "Remain" side. Maybe it's different in a more London/Guardianish CLP, but in our circle the EU just doesn't get our blood pumping.
I keep getting Facebook messages and email urging to attend my local meeting, or to join canvasses etc, but so far there haven’t been any events, meetings or teams within 50 or so miles
But you live outside Zone 6, don't you? What did you expect!
No-one is listening to Labour because no-one is interested in what Labour has to say. Corbyn and his mates have made the party an irrelevance. The only voices that matter in this referendum are Tory ones, because they are the ones that will be making the decisions well into the future.
If Remain loses because Labour voters stay at home that will be a shocking indictment of Labour's leadership and membership.
I don't expect that Remain will lose or that Labour voters will stay at home. Voters are intelligent enough to be able to see this is an important national decision which transcends party loyalty and personal opinions they may have about Cameron or anyone else.
Labour supporters break about 70/30 for Leave, a very big lead, but less overwhelming than the Parliamentary party.
Owen Jones: "Is a Queen Victoria statue offensive? It’s about time we debated our colonial past." - More importantly, Is there a safe space we can lock up this numpty in?
I would agree that there's little appetite among Labour activists for voting Leave: at the couple of meetings I went to where we discussed it, I was one of only a few who was even on the fence.
HOWEVER, even though most were planning to vote Remain, there was next to no enthusiasm for it. A few freely admitted that they didn't really care about the issue, but just couldn't stomach being on the same side as Farage. Most others said they thought on balance it didn't really make much sense to Leave and that they couldn't see any good reasons for it, but at the same time there was little passion for the EU and few people said they'd be up for doing some canvassing for the "Remain" side. Maybe it's different in a more London/Guardianish CLP, but in our circle the EU just doesn't get our blood pumping.
Once I'm done campaigning for Zac I'm going to get involved with Vote Leave, but for now the greater danger is the thought of Khan ruining our fair city. No use leaving the EU only to see Khan tear it all down anyway.
The only thing I might guess is that maybe the post Super Tuesday boost was negated by the poor debate performance. That said even a distinctly average performance in the next debate should see a boost instead.
I think Rubio's votes transferring to Kasich will be beneficial, Kasich is a formidable prospect as a VP pick, Rubio isn't (even if we ignore that he is bought and paid for, thus unacceptable for Trump).
Even for a Trump-Kasich ticket Michigan is not an achievable target for the GOP. McCain lost it by 17 points to Obama, Pennsylvania and Ohio will be the targets.
Looks to me like Kasich is definitely playing for VP. Does he have any control over his delegates past the first round though ?
I'm interested in that last question too; or Rubio's if he drops out.
Rules watch:
While Guam only has nine delegates out of the total of 2,470 who will attend the Republican convention in Cleveland in July 2016, it is far more significant than its size would indicate under RNC rules. Under rules passed in 2012, any Republican candidate needs the support of a majority of delegates from eight states to have his name placed into nomination. Under RNC rules, a territory is considered a state and winning Guam makes it that much easier for a candidate to tally the eight states necessary if there ends up being a floor fight in Cleveland next year. A floor fight is where the identity of the nominee has not been determined prior to the convention and the primary ends with an actual vote with consequences on the convention floor.
Owen Jones: "Is a Queen Victoria statue offensive? It’s about time we debated our colonial past." - More importantly, Is there a safe space we can lock up this numpty in?
Even on the Guardian these ideas are getting no traction. I remember the article about the Rhodes stuff getting a very similar response. At least our PC culture isn't as bad as in the US, the situation there is beyond lamentable.
The only thing I might guess is that maybe the post Super Tuesday boost was negated by the poor debate performance. That said even a distinctly average performance in the next debate should see a boost instead.
I think Rubio's votes transferring to Kasich will be beneficial, Kasich is a formidable prospect as a VP pick, Rubio isn't (even if we ignore that he is bought and paid for, thus unacceptable for Trump).
Even for a Trump-Kasich ticket Michigan is not an achievable target for the GOP. McCain lost it by 17 points to Obama, Pennsylvania and Ohio will be the targets.
Looks to me like Kasich is definitely playing for VP. Does he have any control over his delegates past the first round though ?
I'm interested in that last question too; or Rubio's if he drops out.
Rules watch:
While Guam only has nine delegates out of the total of 2,470 who will attend the Republican convention in Cleveland in July 2016, it is far more significant than its size would indicate under RNC rules. Under rules passed in 2012, any Republican candidate needs the support of a majority of delegates from eight states to have his name placed into nomination. Under RNC rules, a territory is considered a state and winning Guam makes it that much easier for a candidate to tally the eight states necessary if there ends up being a floor fight in Cleveland next year. A floor fight is where the identity of the nominee has not been determined prior to the convention and the primary ends with an actual vote with consequences on the convention floor.
Is that why some states are winner takes all, while others are proportional. If they were all proportional it'd be very hard to meet this rule (at least in the current race).
I would agree that there's little appetite among Labour activists for voting Leave: at the couple of meetings I went to where we discussed it, I was one of only a few who was even on the fence.
HOWEVER, even though most were planning to vote Remain, there was next to no enthusiasm for it. A few freely admitted that they didn't really care about the issue, but just couldn't stomach being on the same side as Farage. Most others said they thought on balance it didn't really make much sense to Leave and that they couldn't see any good reasons for it, but at the same time there was little passion for the EU and few people said they'd be up for doing some canvassing for the "Remain" side. Maybe it's different in a more London/Guardianish CLP, but in our circle the EU just doesn't get our blood pumping.
Once I'm done campaigning for Zac I'm going to get involved with Vote Leave, but for now the greater danger is the thought of Khan ruining our fair city. No use leaving the EU only to see Khan tear it all down anyway.
I've delivered 450 for Vote Leave, over the past couple of days. More this week.
Sorry to worry Remainers - who seem to dominate the Thread-leaders - but I reckon many Labour voters will be asking which side Cameron-Osborne are for, and will vote the opposite. Simples.
No-one is listening to Labour because no-one is interested in what Labour has to say. Corbyn and his mates have made the party an irrelevance. The only voices that matter in this referendum are Tory ones, because they are the ones that will be making the decisions well into the future.
If Remain loses because Labour voters stay at home that will be a shocking indictment of Labour's leadership and membership.
I don't expect that Remain will lose or that Labour voters will stay at home. Voters are intelligent enough to be able to see this is an important national decision which transcends party loyalty and personal opinions they may have about Cameron or anyone else.
Labour supporters break about 70/30 for Leave, a very big lead, but less overwhelming than the Parliamentary party.
Surely you mean Remain?
I'm so hoping he doesn't!
Just one observation on the Leave-Remain divide. Maybe the 2:1 Leave voodoo polls are all infested with Kippers. But you have to think - if they can be arsed but Remain can't - does that tell us something, perhaps? Leave have the most fire in their bellies, maybe?
But my own take is that those voting to Leave are keeping their heads down, not engaging much on the matter, especially with people who loudly opine that "you'd have to be mad to vote to Leave the EU." It's just not worth climbing that far up Mount Moral High-ground to engage with Emma Thompson and her ilk.
(I did see the term "Remaniacs" used today, which I shan't be copying, but it did provoke a wry smile, the thought of the Remoulade Remaniacs.)
Sorry to worry Remainers - who seem to dominate the Thread-leaders - but I reckon many Labour voters will be asking which side Cameron-Osborne are for, and will vote the opposite. Simples.
Nah. The will see the side that Farage and IDS are on and vote the opposite.
The only thing I might guess is that maybe the post Super Tuesday boost was negated by the poor debate performance. That said even a distinctly average performance in the next debate should see a boost instead.
I think Rubio's votes transferring to Kasich will be beneficial, Kasich is a formidable prospect as a VP pick, Rubio isn't (even if we ignore that he is bought and paid for, thus unacceptable for Trump).
Even for a Trump-Kasich ticket Michigan is not an achievable target for the GOP. McCain lost it by 17 points to Obama, Pennsylvania and Ohio will be the targets.
Looks to me like Kasich is definitely playing for VP. Does he have any control over his delegates past the first round though ?
I'm interested in that last question too; or Rubio's if he drops out.
Rules watch:
While Guam only has nine delegates out of the total of 2,470 who will attend the Republican convention in Cleveland in July 2016, it is far more significant than its size would indicate under RNC rules. Under rules passed in 2012, any Republican candidate needs the support of a majority of delegates from eight states to have his name placed into nomination. Under RNC rules, a territory is considered a state and winning Guam makes it that much easier for a candidate to tally the eight states necessary if there ends up being a floor fight in Cleveland next year. A floor fight is where the identity of the nominee has not been determined prior to the convention and the primary ends with an actual vote with consequences on the convention floor.
Is that why some states are winner takes all, while others are proportional. If they were all proportional it'd be very hard to meet this rule (at least in the current race).
I'm not sure, but a quick tot up I make it that only Trump might meet this rule !
Not sure where Cruz is going to get a majority in 8 states from.
Or Rubio for that matter.
New York and New Jersey look like bankers for Trump. Both WTA states too...
No-one is listening to Labour because no-one is interested in what Labour has to say. Corbyn and his mates have made the party an irrelevance. The only voices that matter in this referendum are Tory ones, because they are the ones that will be making the decisions well into the future.
If Remain loses because Labour voters stay at home that will be a shocking indictment of Labour's leadership and membership.
I don't expect that Remain will lose or that Labour voters will stay at home. Voters are intelligent enough to be able to see this is an important national decision which transcends party loyalty and personal opinions they may have about Cameron or anyone else.
Labour supporters break about 70/30 for Leave, a very big lead, but less overwhelming than the Parliamentary party.
Surely you mean Remain?
I'm so hoping he doesn't!
Just one observation on the Leave-Remain divide. Maybe the 2:1 Leave voodoo polls are all infested with Kippers. But you have to think - if they can be arsed but Remain can't - does that tell us something, perhaps? Leave have the most fire in their bellies, maybe?
But my own take is that those voting to Leave are keeping their heads down, not engaging much on the matter, especially with people who loudly opine that "you'd have to be mad to vote to Leave the EU." It's just not worth climbing that far up Mount Moral High-ground to engage with Emma Thompson and her ilk.
(I did see the term "Remaniacs" used today, which I shan't be copying, but it did provoke a wry smile, the thought of the Remoulade Remaniacs.)
Well, current polling suggests that Leave do have a significant turnout advantage - for the time being. Yougov found 86% of UKIP supporters are 10/10 likely to vote, compared to 59% of voters generally. Ipsos Mori found that Remain led by 32% among people certain not to vote, compared to 7% among those certain to vote.
I say for the time being, because of course, Remain still may persuade apathetic Remain voters to turn out.
Sorry to worry Remainers - who seem to dominate the Thread-leaders - but I reckon many Labour voters will be asking which side Cameron-Osborne are for, and will vote the opposite. Simples.
Nah. They will see the side that Farage and IDS are on and vote the opposite.
Hence the fear of large-scale abstention - voting either way is, in effect, backing a right-winger.
Shows how unpopular and/or irrelevant egalitarianism has become.
No-one is listening to Labour because no-one is interested in what Labour has to say. Corbyn and his mates have made the party an irrelevance. The only voices that matter in this referendum are Tory ones, because they are the ones that will be making the decisions well into the future.
If Remain loses because Labour voters stay at home that will be a shocking indictment of Labour's leadership and membership.
I don't expect that Remain will lose or that Labour voters will stay at home. Voters are intelligent enough to be able to see this is an important national decision which transcends party loyalty and personal opinions they may have about Cameron or anyone else.
Labour supporters break about 70/30 for Leave, a very big lead, but less overwhelming than the Parliamentary party.
Surely you mean Remain?
I'm so hoping he doesn't!
Just one observation on the Leave-Remain divide. Maybe the 2:1 Leave voodoo polls are all infested with Kippers. But you have to think - if they can be arsed but Remain can't - does that tell us something, perhaps? Leave have the most fire in their bellies, maybe?
But my own take is that those voting to Leave are keeping their heads down, not engaging much on the matter, especially with people who loudly opine that "you'd have to be mad to vote to Leave the EU." It's just not worth climbing that far up Mount Moral High-ground to engage with Emma Thompson and her ilk.
(I did see the term "Remaniacs" used today, which I shan't be copying, but it did provoke a wry smile, the thought of the Remoulade Remaniacs.)
I wonder if, again, there'll be an Exit Poll bombshell moment and Emma Thompson, Justin Cumberbatch, Emily Thornberry, Chris Patten, Cleggy, Mandelson, and others will be upset ....
It's a scandal, frankly, that the Lords, which is supposed to have some nod towards vote shares, still has so few UKIP peers and so many Lib Dems.
Agreed,Mr Herdson. And even more of a scandal that the Upper House is not a properly elected one.
But you Tories messed that one up in the last Parliament (with a bit of help from Labour, of course).
Actually, it was the Lib Dems who spectacularly messed that up. You should have pressed for an elected upper chamber (elected using PR), instead of the AV referendum. That would have been banked instead of ending up with nothing.
And of course it was Clegg who withdrew his own bill.
Sorry to worry Remainers - who seem to dominate the Thread-leaders - but I reckon many Labour voters will be asking which side Cameron-Osborne are for, and will vote the opposite. Simples.
Nah. They will see the side that Farage and IDS are on and vote the opposite.
Hence the fear of large-scale abstention - voting either way is, in effect, backing a right-winger.
Shows how unpopular and/or irrelevant egalitarianism has become.
The cynicism in your posts always makes me chuckle in a good way.
Sorry to worry Remainers - who seem to dominate the Thread-leaders - but I reckon many Labour voters will be asking which side Cameron-Osborne are for, and will vote the opposite. Simples.
Nah. The will see the side that Farage and IDS are on and vote the opposite.
It's a zero sum game. So they'll stay home and watch the Euro footy....
Sorry to worry Remainers - who seem to dominate the Thread-leaders - but I reckon many Labour voters will be asking which side Cameron-Osborne are for, and will vote the opposite. Simples.
Nah. The will see the side that Farage and IDS are on and vote the opposite.
You're confusing Islington labour with the WWC. I'm not sure if that's deliberate or that you never come into contact with the WWC.
Owen Jones: "Is a Queen Victoria statue offensive? It’s about time we debated our colonial past." - More importantly, Is there a safe space we can lock up this numpty in?
Be interesting to know if we have any active Remainers here delivering leaflets et al.
I don't recall seeing any so far.
I keep getting Facebook messages and email urging to attend my local meeting, or to join canvasses etc, but so far there haven’t been any events, meetings or teams within 50 or so miles
Here in deepest Corbynest Islington we're doing Khan and Remain leaflet rounds, plus some actual canvassing for Khan. Not exactly intense yet, though, couple of sessions a month. More interest in Khan than the EU as it's a clearer Labour vs Tory thing, but people are doing their bit.
BTW, if the same optimistic chap who just bet £226 on Jessie Ventura 4 POTUS @ 999/1 is by some remote chance lurking on PB - well, just to let you know there's now another £20 available.
There will be blizzard of coverage on the lines of "the most important decision of your lifetime" from both sides.
Rather like the indyref.
I expect this to result in a high turnout - another parallel with the indyref.
But the least motivated will be the DE WWC groups and, as always, turnout in these groups will be lower. Just like the indyref.
This dynamic will favour Remain - their supporters are generally better off and more likely to come from social groups with high levels of participation.
A couple of weeks back somebody (i forget who) bit my head off for suggesting turnout would be well down from Scottish Referendum levels .... but, it might be higher in Scotland.
Sorry to worry Remainers - who seem to dominate the Thread-leaders - but I reckon many Labour voters will be asking which side Cameron-Osborne are for, and will vote the opposite. Simples.
Nah. The will see the side that Farage and IDS are on and vote the opposite.
You're confusing Islington labour with the WWC. I'm not sure if that's deliberate or that you never come into contact with the WWC.
Suburban Leicester is not Islington! Farage has consistently failed to get elected wherever he has stood. He is unpopular everywhere.
The WWC is much more varied in its opinions, and also more knowledgeable and nuanced than PB kippers assume.
BTW, if the same optimistic chap who just bet £226 on Jessie Ventura 4 POTUS @ 999/1 is by some remote chance lurking on PB - well, just to let you know there's now another £20 available.
You've played it remarkably well to build up £250k green on the field !!!
You should keep keep requesting runners on Betfair so you can lay every Uncle Tom Cobley
Sorry to worry Remainers - who seem to dominate the Thread-leaders - but I reckon many Labour voters will be asking which side Cameron-Osborne are for, and will vote the opposite. Simples.
Nah. The will see the side that Farage and IDS are on and vote the opposite.
You're confusing Islington labour with the WWC. I'm not sure if that's deliberate or that you never come into contact with the WWC.
Suburban Leicester is not Islington! Farage has consistently failed to get elected wherever he has stood. He is unpopular everywhere.
The WWC is much more varied in its opinions, and also more knowledgeable and nuanced than PB kippers assume.
Suburban Leicester may not be Islington but its not a council estate either. I would suggest you are the least qualified to speak on behalf of the WWC than anybody on this site. You speak of them with disdain.
No-one is listening to Labour because no-one is interested in what Labour has to say. Corbyn and his mates have made the party an irrelevance. The only voices that matter in this referendum are Tory ones, because they are the ones that will be making the decisions well into the future.
If Remain loses because Labour voters stay at home that will be a shocking indictment of Labour's leadership and membership.
I expect Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, Greens to do a lot of active campaigning in the last month. It's early days yet and none of them probably want to distract attention from the Tories fighting each other like ferrets in a sack.
The key elements of that draft statement, seen by Reuters are:
Turkey to readmit all “irregular”migrants crossing into Greek islands from Turkey; For every Syrian readmitted by Turkey from the Greek islands, one Syrian refugee will be resettled from Turkey to the EU member states; The EU will completely evacuate refugees from the Greek islands, readmitting only those who crossed into the islands after a date to be determined; The EU will accelerate the lifting of visa requirements for Turkish citizens in the Schengen zone, so that this takes place, at the latest, by the end of June 2016; The EU and Turkey will cooperate in any joint endeavours to establish humanitarian safe areas inside Syria; The EU will provide Turkey with an extra 3bn Euros (on top of the 3bn Euros already made available) to help Turkey deal with Syrian refugees through to the end of 2018.
According to Reuters, the statement also makes reference to steps in the process of negotiating Turkish accession to the European Union.
Sounds like the EU is bending over to taking a right pounding like a dock-side you know what from Turkey.
Sorry to worry Remainers - who seem to dominate the Thread-leaders - but I reckon many Labour voters will be asking which side Cameron-Osborne are for, and will vote the opposite. Simples.
Nah. The will see the side that Farage and IDS are on and vote the opposite.
You're confusing Islington labour with the WWC. I'm not sure if that's deliberate or that you never come into contact with the WWC.
Suburban Leicester is not Islington! Farage has consistently failed to get elected wherever he has stood. He is unpopular everywhere.
The WWC is much more varied in its opinions, and also more knowledgeable and nuanced than PB kippers assume.
Suburban Leicester may not be Islington but its not a council estate either. I would suggest you are the least qualified to speak on behalf of the WWC than anybody on this site. You speak of them with disdain.
On the contrary the Saffron Estate, and New Parks are some of the biggest council estates in the East Midlands, and form much of suburban Leicester. I never speak badly of the WWC, indeed I think them far more knowledgeable and subtle in their political opinions than you give them credit for!
I'm still keen to know who is funding the Remain leaflets and general campaign.
Probably the EU with taxpayers money.
Thought I read that Goldman Sachs were funding it somewhere, which would be ironic given their role in the Greece fiasco. If they are funding it then expect Cameron to land a rolle as an advisor on a couple of million a year once he is booted out.
Be interesting to know if we have any active Remainers here delivering leaflets et al.
I don't recall seeing any so far.
I keep getting Facebook messages and email urging to attend my local meeting, or to join canvasses etc, but so far there haven’t been any events, meetings or teams within 50 or so miles
Here in deepest Corbynest Islington we're doing Khan and Remain leaflet rounds, plus some actual canvassing for Khan. Not exactly intense yet, though, couple of sessions a month. More interest in Khan than the EU as it's a clearer Labour vs Tory thing, but people are doing their bit.
After putting down such deep roots in suburban Nottingham, living in Islington must be quite a culture shock.
My first guiding principle is this: willing and active cooperation between independent sovereign states is the best way to build a successful European Community.
To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve.
Europe will be stronger precisely because it has France as France, Spain as Spain, Britain as Britain, each with its own customs, traditions and identity. It would be folly to try to fit them into some sort of identikit European personality.
Some of the founding fathers of the Community thought that the United States of America might be its model.
But the whole history of America is quite different from Europe.
People went there to get away from the intolerance and constraints of life in Europe.
They sought liberty and opportunity; and their strong sense of purpose has, over two centuries, helped to create a new unity and pride in being American, just as our pride lies in being British or Belgian or Dutch or German.
I am the first to say that on many great issues the countries of Europe should try to speak with a single voice.
I want to see us work more closely on the things we can do better together than alone.
Europe is stronger when we do so, whether it be in trade, in defence or in our relations with the rest of the world.
But working more closely together does not require power to be centralised in Brussels or decisions to be taken by an appointed bureaucracy.
Indeed, it is ironic that just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction.
We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels.
Certainly we want to see Europe more united and with a greater sense of common purpose.
But it must be in a way which preserves the different traditions, parliamentary powers and sense of national pride in one's own country; for these have been the source of Europe's vitality through the centuries.
Sorry to worry Remainers - who seem to dominate the Thread-leaders - but I reckon many Labour voters will be asking which side Cameron-Osborne are for, and will vote the opposite. Simples.
Nah. The will see the side that Farage and IDS are on and vote the opposite.
I'm sure that's right. A dystopian vision of an isolated Britannia being led to the promised land by Farage Gove and IDS....
The stuff of everyone's nightmare not just women.....
Sorry to worry Remainers - who seem to dominate the Thread-leaders - but I reckon many Labour voters will be asking which side Cameron-Osborne are for, and will vote the opposite. Simples.
Nah. The will see the side that Farage and IDS are on and vote the opposite.
You're confusing Islington labour with the WWC. I'm not sure if that's deliberate or that you never come into contact with the WWC.
Suburban Leicester is not Islington! Farage has consistently failed to get elected wherever he has stood. He is unpopular everywhere.
The WWC is much more varied in its opinions, and also more knowledgeable and nuanced than PB kippers assume.
Suburban Leicester may not be Islington but its not a council estate either. I would suggest you are the least qualified to speak on behalf of the WWC than anybody on this site. You speak of them with disdain.
On the contrary the Saffron Estate, and New Parks are some of the biggest council estates in the East Midlands, and form much of suburban Leicester. I never speak badly of the WWC, indeed I think them far more knowledgeable and subtle in their political opinions than you give them credit for!
BTW, if the same optimistic chap who just bet £226 on Jessie Ventura 4 POTUS @ 999/1 is by some remote chance lurking on PB - well, just to let you know there's now another £20 available.
You've played it remarkably well to build up £250k green on the field !!!
You should keep keep requesting runners on Betfair so you can lay every Uncle Tom Cobley
Ask for Arnie next !
Sadly, I'm only +25k on the field. The £226 was laid by somebody with quicker fingers than me.
"What we should grasp, however, from the lessons of European history is that, first, there is nothing necessarily benevolent about programmes of European integration; second, the desire to achieve grand utopian plans often poses a grave threat to freedom; and third, European unity has been tried before, and the outcome was far from happy."
"If one generation is expected to carry an excessive burden on behalf of another, it will seek by every means to avoid it. It will either demand that past promises are broken, or it will not work, or it will not pay taxes, or the most talented people will leave. Socialist governments which have tried to tax 'till the pips squeak' have ample experience of that."
"The European single currency is bound to fail, economically, politically and indeed socially, though the timing, occasion and full consequences are all necessarily still unclear."
"If the Europeans truly wish to improve their NATO contribution they can show it simply enough. They can establish professional armed forces, like those of the UK. And they can acquire more advanced technology. Indeed, unless that happens soon the gulf between the European and US capabilities will yawn so wide that it will not be possible to share the same battlefield. Alas, I do not think that sharing battlefields with our American friends - but rather disputing global primacy with them - is what European defence plans are truly about."
"(A unified) 'Europe' is the result of plans. It is, in fact, a classic utopian project, a monument to the vanity of intellectuals, a programme whose inevitable destiny is failure: only the scale of the final damage done is in doubt."
"To be free is better than to be unfree - always. Any politician who suggests the opposite should be treated as suspect."
"(I)t is highly questionable whether when 'Europe speaks with one voice', as we are so often told it is doing, anyone is really listening. Europe's reputation as a serious player in international affairs is unenviable. It is a feeble giant who desperate attempts to be taken seriously are largely risible. It has a weak currency and a sluggish inflexible economy, still much reliant on hidden protectionism. It has a shrinking, ageing, population and, with the exception of Britain, rather unimpressive armed forces and, not excepting Britain, muddled diplomacy."
"Countries trade with each other - or to be more precise people buy and sell from each other across frontiers - because that is the way to advance their interests. We do not need to beg people to trade with us - as long as we have something that people want, of a quality they expect and at a price they are prepared to pay."
Hillary is somewhat understating her chances to be DEM nominee in this email I feel:
"Friend --
After another weekend of contests, Donald Trump has two more wins, and he’s added to his already formidable lead in the delegate count.
Hillary is the only candidate who can take Trump down, but this primary isn't over yet. We’re still losing the money race -- Bernie’s campaign outraised us by $12 million in February -- and even though we picked up delegates, we lost 3 of this weekend's 4 contests.
We cannot afford to give this nomination away -- there’s simply too much at stake. We're looking for 8 people from your town to step up today. If you're with Hillary, it’s absolutely crucial that you chip in right now:"
Kansas, Nebraska and Maine are rural and lily white !
I would agree that there's little appetite among Labour activists for voting Leave: at the couple of meetings I went to where we discussed it, I was one of only a few who was even on the fence.
HOWEVER, even though most were planning to vote Remain, there was next to no enthusiasm for it. A few freely admitted that they didn't really care about the issue, but just couldn't stomach being on the same side as Farage. Most others said they thought on balance it didn't really make much sense to Leave and that they couldn't see any good reasons for it, but at the same time there was little passion for the EU and few people said they'd be up for doing some canvassing for the "Remain" side. Maybe it's different in a more London/Guardianish CLP, but in our circle the EU just doesn't get our blood pumping.
How many can stomach being on the same side as Blair, Mandelson, Clegg, Cameron...?
A lot more than can stomach being on the side of Farage, Galloway and Gove I'll wager
No-one is listening to Labour because no-one is interested in what Labour has to say. Corbyn and his mates have made the party an irrelevance. The only voices that matter in this referendum are Tory ones, because they are the ones that will be making the decisions well into the future.
If Remain loses because Labour voters stay at home that will be a shocking indictment of Labour's leadership and membership.
I don't expect that Remain will lose or that Labour voters will stay at home. Voters are intelligent enough to be able to see this is an important national decision which transcends party loyalty and personal opinions they may have about Cameron or anyone else.
Labour supporters break about 70/30 for Leave, a very big lead, but less overwhelming than the Parliamentary party.
Surely you mean Remain?
I'm so hoping he doesn't!
Just one observation on the Leave-Remain divide. Maybe the 2:1 Leave voodoo polls are all infested with Kippers. But you have to think - if they can be arsed but Remain can't - does that tell us something, perhaps? Leave have the most fire in their bellies, maybe?
But my own take is that those voting to Leave are keeping their heads down, not engaging much on the matter, especially with people who loudly opine that "you'd have to be mad to vote to Leave the EU." It's just not worth climbing that far up Mount Moral High-ground to engage with Emma Thompson and her ilk.
(I did see the term "Remaniacs" used today, which I shan't be copying, but it did provoke a wry smile, the thought of the Remoulade Remaniacs.)
I think the best of the campaign so far has been @Luckyguy1983 with "les indecideds" about three months ago, for the "neutrals" that surprisingly opted for REMAIN
Sorry to worry Remainers - who seem to dominate the Thread-leaders - but I reckon many Labour voters will be asking which side Cameron-Osborne are for, and will vote the opposite. Simples.
Nah. The will see the side that Farage and IDS are on and vote the opposite.
You're confusing Islington labour with the WWC. I'm not sure if that's deliberate or that you never come into contact with the WWC.
Suburban Leicester is not Islington! Farage has consistently failed to get elected wherever he has stood. He is unpopular everywhere.
The WWC is much more varied in its opinions, and also more knowledgeable and nuanced than PB kippers assume.
Suburban Leicester may not be Islington but its not a council estate either. I would suggest you are the least qualified to speak on behalf of the WWC than anybody on this site. You speak of them with disdain.
On the contrary the Saffron Estate, and New Parks are some of the biggest council estates in the East Midlands, and form much of suburban Leicester. I never speak badly of the WWC, indeed I think them far more knowledgeable and subtle in their political opinions than you give them credit for!
Except for the ones that vote Ukip?
They are in a minority, but while I disagree with their opinions, I do not think them thick.
Sorry to worry Remainers - who seem to dominate the Thread-leaders - but I reckon many Labour voters will be asking which side Cameron-Osborne are for, and will vote the opposite. Simples.
Nah. The will see the side that Farage and IDS are on and vote the opposite.
You're confusing Islington labour with the WWC. I'm not sure if that's deliberate or that you never come into contact with the WWC.
Suburban Leicester is not Islington! Farage has consistently failed to get elected wherever he has stood. He is unpopular everywhere.
The WWC is much more varied in its opinions, and also more knowledgeable and nuanced than PB kippers assume.
Suburban Leicester may not be Islington but its not a council estate either. I would suggest you are the least qualified to speak on behalf of the WWC than anybody on this site. You speak of them with disdain.
On the contrary the Saffron Estate, and New Parks are some of the biggest council estates in the East Midlands, and form much of suburban Leicester. I never speak badly of the WWC, indeed I think them far more knowledgeable and subtle in their political opinions than you give them credit for!
I give them far more credit than you because I am WWC, millions of people have voted UKIP in recent years - who do you think these people are?
I've news for you, not everybody earns 6 figures a year and has a gold plated pension, go and patronise somebody who doesn't think you're a pompous arse.
So much for ensuring they remain politically neutral on the issue of Brexit...If you are for it, you get the heave ho, if you are against it, well carry on old chap..
The BCC really have blown their own feet off with this. If they had just said nothing other than ...is entitled to their personal opinion, but as an organisation we try to stay neutral, lets call it the BBC Tw@tter policy on neutrality, it would have all blown over by now.
The key elements of that draft statement, seen by Reuters are:
Turkey to readmit all “irregular”migrants crossing into Greek islands from Turkey; For every Syrian readmitted by Turkey from the Greek islands, one Syrian refugee will be resettled from Turkey to the EU member states; The EU will completely evacuate refugees from the Greek islands, readmitting only those who crossed into the islands after a date to be determined; The EU will accelerate the lifting of visa requirements for Turkish citizens in the Schengen zone, so that this takes place, at the latest, by the end of June 2016; The EU and Turkey will cooperate in any joint endeavours to establish humanitarian safe areas inside Syria; The EU will provide Turkey with an extra 3bn Euros (on top of the 3bn Euros already made available) to help Turkey deal with Syrian refugees through to the end of 2018.
According to Reuters, the statement also makes reference to steps in the process of negotiating Turkish accession to the European Union.
Sounds like the EU is bending over to taking a right pounding like a dock-side you know what from Turkey.
Could be a boost for leave.
Sounds to me that Turkey has agreed to take back all irregular migrants. A major victory for the EU borders.
I suspect the smugglers wil soon give up on Turkey (if it is implemented) and move back to North Africa.
Sorry to worry Remainers - who seem to dominate the Thread-leaders - but I reckon many Labour voters will be asking which side Cameron-Osborne are for, and will vote the opposite. Simples.
Wishful think I'm afraid. The dislike of UKIP and Farage is far far greater in my experience. I was a member till Corbyn arrived and I literally do not know one person who intends to vote LEAVE. Granted there is not much enthusiasm for the EU but by June 23rd I expect Labour voters will vote at least 70-30 for Remain and probably nearer 80-20 if I were putting money on it.
Hillary is somewhat understating her chances to be DEM nominee in this email I feel:
"Friend --
After another weekend of contests, Donald Trump has two more wins, and he’s added to his already formidable lead in the delegate count.
Hillary is the only candidate who can take Trump down, but this primary isn't over yet. We’re still losing the money race -- Bernie’s campaign outraised us by $12 million in February -- and even though we picked up delegates, we lost 3 of this weekend's 4 contests.
We cannot afford to give this nomination away -- there’s simply too much at stake. We're looking for 8 people from your town to step up today. If you're with Hillary, it’s absolutely crucial that you chip in right now:"
Kansas, Nebraska and Maine are rural and lily white !
Did Trump "add to his lead" over Cruz? I don't think so
Hillary is somewhat understating her chances to be DEM nominee in this email I feel:
"Friend --
After another weekend of contests, Donald Trump has two more wins, and he’s added to his already formidable lead in the delegate count.
Hillary is the only candidate who can take Trump down, but this primary isn't over yet. We’re still losing the money race -- Bernie’s campaign outraised us by $12 million in February -- and even though we picked up delegates, we lost 3 of this weekend's 4 contests.
We cannot afford to give this nomination away -- there’s simply too much at stake. We're looking for 8 people from your town to step up today. If you're with Hillary, it’s absolutely crucial that you chip in right now:"
Kansas, Nebraska and Maine are rural and lily white !
She is understating her chances but it's a measure of how weak a candidate she is that she's still losing states to Sanders this far into the campaign. If anyone had suggested a year ago that by March 7, Clinton and Sanders would be the only two candidates, with Hillary holding only a marginal lead on pledged delegates, they'd have been thought mad.
So much for ensuring they remain politically neutral on the issue of Brexit...If you are for it, you get the heave ho, if you are against it, well carry on old chap..
The BCC really have blown their own feet off with this. If they had just said nothing other than ...is entitled to their personal opinion, but as an organisation we try to stay neutral, lets call it the BBC Tw@tter policy on neutrality, it would have all blown over by now.
No, they really haven't blown off any feet with this. Only the most obsessive Leavers cannot understand the problem with the director-general of the organisation expressing a view in an official speech, in his capacity as director-general, when the organisation had a formal position that they were neutral.
What's more, the obsession by the Leavers with nonsense such as this is incredibly counter-productive. Every day spent whingeing about how unfair life is, is one less day to try to actually persuade people that the advantages of Brexit outweigh the risks. The only foot-shooting has been in the Leave camp.
Sorry to worry Remainers - who seem to dominate the Thread-leaders - but I reckon many Labour voters will be asking which side Cameron-Osborne are for, and will vote the opposite. Simples.
Wishful think I'm afraid. The dislike of UKIP and Farage is far far greater in my experience. I was a member till Corbyn arrived and I literally do not know one person who intends to vote LEAVE. Granted there is not much enthusiasm for the EU but by June 23rd I expect Labour voters will vote at least 70-30 for Remain and probably nearer 80-20 if I were putting money on it.
Out of interest where do you live and what is your job?
If you don't know a single person voting Leave I'd suggest you inhabit a very narrow world.
Owen Jones: "Is a Queen Victoria statue offensive? It’s about time we debated our colonial past." - More importantly, Is there a safe space we can lock up this numpty in?
Does anyone know if this comment beneath the article is true? jimstinks 3h ago 143 144 There is a statue of Queen Vic in Liverpool where it appears, if you look from the correct angle, that she has a penis.
Just had a very amusing conversation with my man in France.
The French are spitting with how Cameron f**ked up the negotiations. They wanted him to propose something sensible that worked for everyone - on immigration, on benefits and everything else. They would have then ganged up on Germany and delivered it.
But Cameron went for the "I'm alright, Jack, approach" and tried to wing the whole thing. Result - in their view - is there is a real chance that Brexit may happen. (But he confirmed that they will make a big and generous offer to Scotland)
Owen Jones: "Is a Queen Victoria statue offensive? It’s about time we debated our colonial past." - More importantly, Is there a safe space we can lock up this numpty in?
Does anyone know if this comment beneath the article is true? jimstinks 3h ago 143 144 There is a statue of Queen Vic in Liverpool where it appears, if you look from the correct angle, that she has a penis.
Comments
Meanwhile, two members of the college’s student assembly are facing “impeachment proceedings” because they attended the bash.
And they no doubt think Trump is a fascist.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/07/students-queen-victoria-statue-cecil-rhodes-colonial-past
Comments are a hoot - natch.
You have to remember that the UK only joined the EU in the first place because the 69 Labour MPs who voted to enter saw it as an issue that transcended party loyalty. Many of those who left Labour for the SDP were motivated partly by support for the EU. The same is true on the other side - the Tory Maastrict rebels in the early 90s almost brought down Major because they saw the EU as an issue which transcended loyalty to their government. And now the Leavers see it in the same way. Nothing hilarious about it - just a fact of political life.
The problem, as I've been saying for weeks too, is not that Labour is inactive on the issue, but that it's not newsworthy on this subject - we aren't significantly split, we aren't proposing anything very different, we support membership for the same reasons we supported in 10 or 20 years ago. None of that makes the news, which works with "split" and "shocking new policy" stories (compare with Corbyn politely replying to a question with his personal view on prostitution, which is classed as A Story). So you get Alan Johnson speaking to 100 trade unionists somewhere, and perhaps 5 of them swing to Remain, while voters at large don't notice.
What can be done about it is not clear, except getting a televised debate with Alan putting the Labour case.
jimstinks
3h ago
143 144
There is a statue of Queen Vic in Liverpool where it appears, if you look from the correct angle, that she has a penis.
Victoria's Secret as it's known.
On Yougov's excellent map, Hull, Doncaster, Blackburn, Rotherham, Barnsley, South Tyneside, Sandwell, stood out as Labour-voting Eurosceptic boroughs.
Could it be that the labour middle-class will vote in a majority to remain and the working class labour vote in a majority leave ?
I just hear leave with my labour working class friends
Owen Jones: "Is a Queen Victoria statue offensive? It’s about time we debated our colonial past." - More importantly, Is there a safe space we can lock up this numpty in? '
Just ignore the prat.
HOWEVER, even though most were planning to vote Remain, there was next to no enthusiasm for it. A few freely admitted that they didn't really care about the issue, but just couldn't stomach being on the same side as Farage. Most others said they thought on balance it didn't really make much sense to Leave and that they couldn't see any good reasons for it, but at the same time there was little passion for the EU and few people said they'd be up for doing some canvassing for the "Remain" side. The majority feeling was that it's rather like going to a job you don't particularly like, but nonetheless don't have any good alternatives lined up so you just have to plug on with it.
Maybe it's different in a more London/Guardianish CLP, but in our circle the EU just doesn't get our blood pumping.
I don't recall seeing any so far.
While Guam only has nine delegates out of the total of 2,470 who will attend the Republican convention in Cleveland in July 2016, it is far more significant than its size would indicate under RNC rules. Under rules passed in 2012, any Republican candidate needs the support of a majority of delegates from eight states to have his name placed into nomination. Under RNC rules, a territory is considered a state and winning Guam makes it that much easier for a candidate to tally the eight states necessary if there ends up being a floor fight in Cleveland next year. A floor fight is where the identity of the nominee has not been determined prior to the convention and the primary ends with an actual vote with consequences on the convention floor.
Majority of delegates achieved thus far:
Trump:
NH; SC; GA; MA; TN; AL
Cruz:
TX; KS
Rubio:
Puerto Rico
Just one observation on the Leave-Remain divide. Maybe the 2:1 Leave voodoo polls are all infested with Kippers. But you have to think - if they can be arsed but Remain can't - does that tell us something, perhaps? Leave have the most fire in their bellies, maybe?
But my own take is that those voting to Leave are keeping their heads down, not engaging much on the matter, especially with people who loudly opine that "you'd have to be mad to vote to Leave the EU." It's just not worth climbing that far up Mount Moral High-ground to engage with Emma Thompson and her ilk.
(I did see the term "Remaniacs" used today, which I shan't be copying, but it did provoke a wry smile, the thought of the Remoulade Remaniacs.)
Not sure where Cruz is going to get a majority in 8 states from.
Or Rubio for that matter.
New York and New Jersey look like bankers for Trump. Both WTA states too...
Thus far:
Trump:
NH; SC; GA; MA; TN; AL
Cruz:
TX; KS
Rubio:
Puerto Rico
I say for the time being, because of course, Remain still may persuade apathetic Remain voters to turn out.
Shows how unpopular and/or irrelevant egalitarianism has become.
And of course it was Clegg who withdrew his own bill.
Rather like the indyref.
I expect this to result in a high turnout - another parallel with the indyref.
But the least motivated will be the DE WWC groups and, as always, turnout in these groups will be lower. Just like the indyref.
This dynamic will favour Remain - their supporters are generally better off and more likely to come from social groups with high levels of participation.
The WWC is much more varied in its opinions, and also more knowledgeable and nuanced than PB kippers assume.
So far its all very vague
Glad I went to Tunisia in 2012, doubt I'd go there now
You should keep keep requesting runners on Betfair so you can lay every Uncle Tom Cobley
Ask for Arnie next
http://www.newstatesman.com/world/2015/10/eu-referendum-campaign-groups-who-s-and-who-s-out
'Here in deepest Corbynest Islington we're doing Khan and Remain leaflet rounds, plus some actual canvassing for Khan.'
Meanwhile in the non Islington real world the London Evening Standard is doing a great job for Zac Goldsmith.
www.standard.co.uk/news
Sadiq Khan aide in online storm quits as gun photos emerge ....
The key elements of that draft statement, seen by Reuters are:
Turkey to readmit all “irregular”migrants crossing into Greek islands from Turkey;
For every Syrian readmitted by Turkey from the Greek islands, one Syrian refugee will be resettled from Turkey to the EU member states;
The EU will completely evacuate refugees from the Greek islands, readmitting only those who crossed into the islands after a date to be determined;
The EU will accelerate the lifting of visa requirements for Turkish citizens in the Schengen zone, so that this takes place, at the latest, by the end of June 2016;
The EU and Turkey will cooperate in any joint endeavours to establish humanitarian safe areas inside Syria;
The EU will provide Turkey with an extra 3bn Euros (on top of the 3bn Euros already made available) to help Turkey deal with Syrian refugees through to the end of 2018.
According to Reuters, the statement also makes reference to steps in the process of negotiating Turkish accession to the European Union.
Sounds like the EU is bending over to taking a right pounding like a dock-side you know what from Turkey.
Could be a boost for leave.
Thought I read that Goldman Sachs were funding it somewhere, which would be ironic given their role in the Greece fiasco. If they are funding it then expect Cameron to land a rolle as an advisor on a couple of million a year once he is booted out.
My first guiding principle is this: willing and active cooperation between independent sovereign states is the best way to build a successful European Community.
To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve.
Europe will be stronger precisely because it has France as France, Spain as Spain, Britain as Britain, each with its own customs, traditions and identity. It would be folly to try to fit them into some sort of identikit European personality.
Some of the founding fathers of the Community thought that the United States of America might be its model.
But the whole history of America is quite different from Europe.
People went there to get away from the intolerance and constraints of life in Europe.
They sought liberty and opportunity; and their strong sense of purpose has, over two centuries, helped to create a new unity and pride in being American, just as our pride lies in being British or Belgian or Dutch or German.
I am the first to say that on many great issues the countries of Europe should try to speak with a single voice.
I want to see us work more closely on the things we can do better together than alone.
Europe is stronger when we do so, whether it be in trade, in defence or in our relations with the rest of the world.
But working more closely together does not require power to be centralised in Brussels or decisions to be taken by an appointed bureaucracy.
Indeed, it is ironic that just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction.
We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels.
Certainly we want to see Europe more united and with a greater sense of common purpose.
But it must be in a way which preserves the different traditions, parliamentary powers and sense of national pride in one's own country; for these have been the source of Europe's vitality through the centuries.
The stuff of everyone's nightmare not just women.....
grr.
http://margaretthatcher.tv/The_Best_Quotes.html
"What we should grasp, however, from the lessons of European history is that, first, there is nothing necessarily benevolent about programmes of European integration; second, the desire to achieve grand utopian plans often poses a grave threat to freedom; and third, European unity has been tried before, and the outcome was far from happy."
"If one generation is expected to carry an excessive burden on behalf of another, it will seek by every means to avoid it. It will either demand that past promises are broken, or it will not work, or it will not pay taxes, or the most talented people will leave. Socialist governments which have tried to tax 'till the pips squeak' have ample experience of that."
"The European single currency is bound to fail, economically, politically and indeed socially, though the timing, occasion and full consequences are all necessarily still unclear."
"If the Europeans truly wish to improve their NATO contribution they can show it simply enough. They can establish professional armed forces, like those of the UK. And they can acquire more advanced technology. Indeed, unless that happens soon the gulf between the European and US capabilities will yawn so wide that it will not be possible to share the same battlefield. Alas, I do not think that sharing battlefields with our American friends - but rather disputing global primacy with them - is what European defence plans are truly about."
"(A unified) 'Europe' is the result of plans. It is, in fact, a classic utopian project, a monument to the vanity of intellectuals, a programme whose inevitable destiny is failure: only the scale of the final damage done is in doubt."
"To be free is better than to be unfree - always. Any politician who suggests the opposite should be treated as suspect."
"(I)t is highly questionable whether when 'Europe speaks with one voice', as we are so often told it is doing, anyone is really listening. Europe's reputation as a serious player in international affairs is unenviable. It is a feeble giant who desperate attempts to be taken seriously are largely risible. It has a weak currency and a sluggish inflexible economy, still much reliant on hidden protectionism. It has a shrinking, ageing, population and, with the exception of Britain, rather unimpressive armed forces and, not excepting Britain, muddled diplomacy."
"Countries trade with each other - or to be more precise people buy and sell from each other across frontiers - because that is the way to advance their interests. We do not need to beg people to trade with us - as long as we have something that people want, of a quality they expect and at a price they are prepared to pay."
"Friend --
After another weekend of contests, Donald Trump has two more wins, and he’s added to his already formidable lead in the delegate count.
Hillary is the only candidate who can take Trump down, but this primary isn't over yet. We’re still losing the money race -- Bernie’s campaign outraised us by $12 million in February -- and even though we picked up delegates, we lost 3 of this weekend's 4 contests.
We cannot afford to give this nomination away -- there’s simply too much at stake. We're looking for 8 people from your town to step up today. If you're with Hillary, it’s absolutely crucial that you chip in right now:"
Kansas, Nebraska and Maine are rural and lily white !
I've news for you, not everybody earns 6 figures a year and has a gold plated pension, go and patronise somebody who doesn't think you're a pompous arse.
http://order-order.com/2016/03/07/remain-supporting-bcc-chief-keeps-job/
The BCC really have blown their own feet off with this. If they had just said nothing other than ...is entitled to their personal opinion, but as an organisation we try to stay neutral, lets call it the BBC Tw@tter policy on neutrality, it would have all blown over by now.
We'll be voting LEAVE because we believe in FREEDOM!
We'll be voting LEAVE because we believe in DEMOCRACY!
We'll be voting LEAVE because we believe in NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY!
We'll be voting LEAVE because we believe in the POUND!
But most importantly:
We'll be voting LEAVE because we believe in BRITAIN!
Believe in BRITAIN!
Be LEAVE!
"I'm Sunil Prasannan, and I endorse this message"
I suspect the smugglers wil soon give up on Turkey (if it is implemented) and move back to North Africa.
Wishful think I'm afraid. The dislike of UKIP and Farage is far far greater in my experience. I was a member till Corbyn arrived and I literally do not know one person who intends to vote LEAVE. Granted there is not much enthusiasm for the EU but by June 23rd I expect Labour voters will vote at least 70-30 for Remain and probably nearer 80-20 if I were putting money on it.
I know Sharapova much better, but I wasn't sure if I was atypical because I'm a tennis fan anyway.
Interestingly: (2 way)
Trump 45% Rubio 46% (+1)
Trump 41% Cruz 48% (+7)
What's more, the obsession by the Leavers with nonsense such as this is incredibly counter-productive. Every day spent whingeing about how unfair life is, is one less day to try to actually persuade people that the advantages of Brexit outweigh the risks. The only foot-shooting has been in the Leave camp.
If you don't know a single person voting Leave I'd suggest you inhabit a very narrow world.
+300 Kasich
+250 Cruz
+70 Trump
+30 Rubio
http://www.speel.me.uk/sculptplaces/lpoolqv.htm
http://www.victorianweb.org/sculpture/allen/3.html
The whole area around it was flattened during WW2 - just about the only thing left standing was the monument.
Monmouth Michigan:
Before the debate:
Trump 39
Cruz 22
Kasich 17
Rubio 14
About the same as the other pre-debate polls.
After the debate:
Trump 32
Kasich 26
Cruz 25
Rubio 12
About the same as the post debate ARG poll.
http://www.monmouth.edu/assets/0/32212254770/32212254991/32212254992/32212254994/32212254995/30064771087/23a456ac-d673-4189-9742-1f060ec2d926.pdf
The French are spitting with how Cameron f**ked up the negotiations. They wanted him to propose something sensible that worked for everyone - on immigration, on benefits and everything else. They would have then ganged up on Germany and delivered it.
But Cameron went for the "I'm alright, Jack, approach" and tried to wing the whole thing. Result - in their view - is there is a real chance that Brexit may happen. (But he confirmed that they will make a big and generous offer to Scotland)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Memorial_(India)
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Victoria_Memorial_Kolkata_panorama.jpg