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Fascinating article thank you. As well as the lifespan 360 Terrabytes of data for the size of a CD is simply incredible too.Richard_Tyndall said:OT
The future of data storage. 13.8 billion year lifespan they say.
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/five-dimensional-glass-discs-store-183747050.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=fb0 -
The change in the Tory party may be a softening of attitudes towards immigration from social conservatism, depending on who wins the next leadership election.Philip_Thompson said:
Who saw it changing last time either? But change it did.Casino_Royale said:
The Tory party has been moving in an increasingly eurosceptic direction for over 20 years. Given the changes on the horizon for the EU, and what we know of UK politics at the moment, i can't see that changing.Philip_Thompson said:How is that any different to Labour in the seventies? And yet by the nineties and noughties the Labour Party was pretty united and we spoke of Tory divisions.
The changes I see coming for the EU move the EU more in the Tory direction than the Delors/Labour direction that caused the shift last time but the future is not certain.
Given where the country is at, I think that's crazy, but I'm astonished at how many Tories I meet who have very liberal views on it and are dismissive of controls.0 -
The biggest problem with the referendum is there's a pretty high chance that either Scotland has to leave the EU despite voting in favour of it, or England has to stay in despite having voted to leave.0
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We've barely got 5 billion years left in our Sun!Richard_Tyndall said:OT
The future of data storage. 13.8 billion year lifespan they say.
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/five-dimensional-glass-discs-store-183747050.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=fb
They are probably banking on no-one taking them back to complain if their lifespan is only ten billon.....0 -
LEAVE = United Federation of PlanetsSunil_Prasannan said:
WHO GOVERNS BRITAIN?TheScreamingEagles said:
There's a danger that leave end up looking like sore losers and as a country we don't like sore losers.Casino_Royale said:
Why should I stop campaigning for what I believe is right? And unlike the EU it is for the people to make that decision, rather than stripping it away from them.TheScreamingEagles said:
You're like the EU. You won't accept the will of the people until they give the right result.Casino_Royale said:
No, it won't. There will be half the party voting Leave, 100 BOO MPs and 40% of the country. It won't be settled.Philip_Thompson said:
I wouldn't be so sure about the divide, so long as the result is divisive enough to settle it for a generation. Last time there was a referendum it was because of a divide in the Labour Party. Fast forward 30 years and Labour was fairly united on the subject.Casino_Royale said:
For me, this issue will never be settled until we Leave. Nor will the ancient divide in the Conservative Party over Europe.Sean_F said:
If people feel they've been blackmailed into voting Remain, then I agree that it's unlikely to settle the issue.Cyclefree said:
ARichard_Nabavi said:
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.Sean_F said:So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
The only way this ends is if we Leave.
If a week is a long time in politics, a generation is an eternity.
And I wouldn't stop campaigning for an exit even if it were a landslide.
You forget: I didn't want this referendum and think it's a strategic error. My approach would have only been to call one once there was an overwhelming clamour to leave, with clear and consistent double digit poll leads.
I fear this one will close the issue down and lock us in for a long time.
Clamouring for another referendum and losing it really will keep us in the EU for a generation.
LEAVE = Britain
REMAIN = Brussels
REMAIN = The Dominium0 -
I just hope we've quit the EU by then.MarqueeMark said:
We've barely got 5 billion years left in our Sun!Richard_Tyndall said:OT
The future of data storage. 13.8 billion year lifespan they say.
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/five-dimensional-glass-discs-store-183747050.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=fb0 -
So if leave win there won't be any sore losers in the Remain camp. No second vote that kind of thing ?TheScreamingEagles said:
There's a danger that leave end up looking like sore losers and as a country we don't like sore losers.Casino_Royale said:
Why should I stop campaigning for what I believe is right? And unlike the EU it is for the people to make that decision, rather than stripping it away from them.TheScreamingEagles said:
You're like the EU. You won't accept the will of the people until they give the right result.Casino_Royale said:
No, it won't. There will be half the party voting Leave, 100 BOO MPs and 40% of the country. It won't be settled.Philip_Thompson said:
I wouldn't be so sure about the divide, so long as the result is divisive enough to settle it for a generation. Last time there was a referendum it was because of a divide in the Labour Party. Fast forward 30 years and Labour was fairly united on the subject.Casino_Royale said:
For me, this issue will never be settled until we Leave. Nor will the ancient divide in the Conservative Party over Europe.Sean_F said:
If people feel they've been blackmailed into voting Remain, then I agree that it's unlikely to settle the issue.Cyclefree said:
ARichard_Nabavi said:
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.Sean_F said:So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
The only way this ends is if we Leave.
If a week is a long time in politics, a generation is an eternity.
And I wouldn't stop campaigning for an exit even if it were a landslide.
You forget: I didn't want this referendum and think it's a strategic error. My approach would have only been to call one once there was an overwhelming clamour to leave, with clear and consistent double digit poll leads.
I fear this one will close the issue down and lock us in for a long time.
Clamouring for another referendum and losing it really will keep us in the EU for a generation.
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It's the data storage system we need for the ark.MarqueeMark said:
We've barely got 5 billion years left in our Sun!Richard_Tyndall said:OT
The future of data storage. 13.8 billion year lifespan they say.
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/five-dimensional-glass-discs-store-183747050.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=fb
They are probably banking no-one taking them back to complain if their lifespan is only ten billon.....0 -
5 billion years of Nabavi... Oh Lord, no!Casino_Royale said:
I just hope we've quit the EU by then.MarqueeMark said:
We've barely got 5 billion years left in our Sun!Richard_Tyndall said:OT
The future of data storage. 13.8 billion year lifespan they say.
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/five-dimensional-glass-discs-store-183747050.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=fb0 -
A very fair point.Casino_Royale said:
It's good cop, bad cop. Cameron does the heart stuff, the optics and the vision. And Osborne is a total ****.DavidL said:
I agree. I think Richard is taking a lot of very unfair flack on here about this.Casino_Royale said:
I don't expect any surprises this weekend.DavidL said:So the Cameron renegotiation fiasco has had a MoE effect on the polls and the number of people who think Remain will win has increased?
It's almost as if people were not paying attention. Colour me surprised.
Leave need some newsworthy and sane leadership with a clear vision of What Happens Next. Time is running out. Unless it comes this weekend (from senior cabinet members let off the leash) I fear this is all over.
I think the Government has put a lot of effort into sewing its own side up.
The fact that Cameron doesn't like to do detail does not mean that he can't, particularly when the heat is on as it is right now. This will be sewn up tighter than the proverbial rats arse before it comes to the cabinet table.
Osborne was a while ago asking backbenchers and junior ministers whether they wanted to support Leave or have a career. I would frankly be surprised at this point if Cameron was being any less blunt. These 2 have not dominated UK politics for a decade by being nice.
On a different note, if they'd put as much effort into the EU negotiation as they have into corralling their own party one does wonder if this deal might not in fact be quite a bit better.0 -
Or at least moved the threads onto a different topic.Casino_Royale said:
I just hope we've quit the EU by then.MarqueeMark said:
We've barely got 5 billion years left in our Sun!Richard_Tyndall said:OT
The future of data storage. 13.8 billion year lifespan they say.
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/five-dimensional-glass-discs-store-183747050.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=fb0 -
Is there any source for this?Casino_Royale said:
It's good cop, bad cop. Cameron does the heart stuff, the optics and the vision. And Osborne is a total ****.DavidL said:
I agree. I think Richard is taking a lot of very unfair flack on here about this.Casino_Royale said:
I don't expect any surprises this weekend.DavidL said:So the Cameron renegotiation fiasco has had a MoE effect on the polls and the number of people who think Remain will win has increased?
It's almost as if people were not paying attention. Colour me surprised.
Leave need some newsworthy and sane leadership with a clear vision of What Happens Next. Time is running out. Unless it comes this weekend (from senior cabinet members let off the leash) I fear this is all over.
I think the Government has put a lot of effort into sewing its own side up.
The fact that Cameron doesn't like to do detail does not mean that he can't, particularly when the heat is on as it is right now. This will be sewn up tighter than the proverbial rats arse before it comes to the cabinet table.
Osborne was a while ago asking backbenchers and junior ministers whether they wanted to support Leave or have a career. I would frankly be surprised at this point if Cameron was being any less blunt. These 2 have not dominated UK politics for a decade by being nice.
On a different note, if they'd put as much effort into the EU negotiation as they have into corralling their own party one does wonder if this deal might not in fact be quite a bit better.
"Osborne was a while ago asking backbenchers and junior ministers whether they wanted to support Leave or have a career"0 -
'SeanT
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'Fascinating. The Scotland thing could be a bluff, of course. But a clever one.'
No doubt a bluff but could well backfire as a win win for some voters.
Only 18 months ago the EU hierarchy was telling anyone that would listen that if Scotland became independent it would have to join the EU entry queue along with other countries and it could take years.0 -
Clinton 44 - Sanders 42 Nationwide Quinnipiac0
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Nope.Alanbrooke said:
So if leave win there won't be any sore losers in the Remain camp. No second vote that kind of thing ?TheScreamingEagles said:
There's a danger that leave end up looking like sore losers and as a country we don't like sore losers.Casino_Royale said:
Why should I stop campaigning for what I believe is right? And unlike the EU it is for the people to make that decision, rather than stripping it away from them.TheScreamingEagles said:
You're like the EU. You won't accept the will of the people until they give the right result.Casino_Royale said:
No, it won't. There will be half the party voting Leave, 100 BOO MPs and 40% of the country. It won't be settled.Philip_Thompson said:
I wouldn't be so sure about the divide, so long as the result is divisive enough to settle it for a generation. Last time there was a referendum it was because of a divide in the Labour Party. Fast forward 30 years and Labour was fairly united on the subject.Casino_Royale said:
For me, this issue will never be settled until we Leave. Nor will the ancient divide in the Conservative Party over Europe.Sean_F said:
If people feel they've been blackmailed into voting Remain, then I agree that it's unlikely to settle the issue.Cyclefree said:
ARichard_Nabavi said:
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.Sean_F said:So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
The only way this ends is if we Leave.
If a week is a long time in politics, a generation is an eternity.
And I wouldn't stop campaigning for an exit even if it were a landslide.
You forget: I didn't want this referendum and think it's a strategic error. My approach would have only been to call one once there was an overwhelming clamour to leave, with clear and consistent double digit poll leads.
I fear this one will close the issue down and lock us in for a long time.
Clamouring for another referendum and losing it really will keep us in the EU for a generation.
Vox populi, vox Dei.
Dave has said, we vote to leave, we leave. No rerun.
Remain aren't like the Scot Nats you know.0 -
LEAVE = The Rebel AllianceCasino_Royale said:
LEAVE = United Federation of PlanetsSunil_Prasannan said:
WHO GOVERNS BRITAIN?TheScreamingEagles said:
There's a danger that leave end up looking like sore losers and as a country we don't like sore losers.Casino_Royale said:
Why should I stop campaigning for what I believe is right? And unlike the EU it is for the people to make that decision, rather than stripping it away from them.TheScreamingEagles said:
You're like the EU. You won't accept the will of the people until they give the right result.Casino_Royale said:
No, it won't. There will be half the party voting Leave, 100 BOO MPs and 40% of the country. It won't be settled.Philip_Thompson said:
I wouldn't be so sure about the divide, so long as the result is divisive enough to settle it for a generation. Last time there was a referendum it was because of a divide in the Labour Party. Fast forward 30 years and Labour was fairly united on the subject.Casino_Royale said:
For me, this issue will never be settled until we Leave. Nor will the ancient divide in the Conservative Party over Europe.Sean_F said:
If people feel they've been blackmailed into voting Remain, then I agree that it's unlikely to settle the issue.Cyclefree said:
ARichard_Nabavi said:
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.Sean_F said:So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
The only way this ends is if we Leave.
If a week is a long time in politics, a generation is an eternity.
And I wouldn't stop campaigning for an exit even if it were a landslide.
You forget: I didn't want this referendum and think it's a strategic error. My approach would have only been to call one once there was an overwhelming clamour to leave, with clear and consistent double digit poll leads.
I fear this one will close the issue down and lock us in for a long time.
Clamouring for another referendum and losing it really will keep us in the EU for a generation.
LEAVE = Britain
REMAIN = Brussels
REMAIN = The Dominium
REMAIN = The First Order0 -
(1) I don't know how anyone who chooses to live in rural squalor can be so confident of Londoners' political views four years ahead. But, hey, this is pb.com, so I can't say I'm surprised by your attitude.Casino_Royale said:
Mixing two points: (1) London won't elect an independence mayor; they'll elect someone who they think can make the best of Brexit and (2) in the very unlikely event London did elect such a mayor, the rest of the country would rightly tell them to sod offInnocent_Abroad said:
So why are only people who live in London allowed to vote in Mayoral elections?Casino_Royale said:
Almost certainly not.Innocent_Abroad said:
And a secessionist candidate storms to the Mayoralty in 2020.Casino_Royale said:
We Leave, and London has to deal with it.AndyJS said:What happens if London votes 2 to 1 in favour of Remain but the overall result is Leave?
Besides which, London is the nation's capital and belongs to all of us. Not just the poncy international elite that live there and claim to speak for everyone.
There's a debate to be had about further devolution of powers. But London has no right to be independent as our ancient capital.
(2) Concedes my reply to (1). Bless you.
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AndyJS said:
The biggest problem with the referendum is there's a pretty high chance that either Scotland has to leave the EU despite voting in favour of it, or England has to stay in despite having voted to leave.
You've cottoned on. Well done.0 -
It's pretty obvious that the EU would become an ally of UK separatists in the event of a Leave vote.SeanT said:
Fascinating. The Scotland thing could be a bluff, of course. But a clever one.Charles said:Repost from last thread. Sorry have been ducking and diving. I can report that the farmers are happy and wellfed, although worried about Ukraine.
Charles said:Tidbits from Paris. Just off to meet with the farmers
- French Ambassador and Gus O'Donnell had a conversation about 2 weeks ago in a message was passed to G.O.D. (Presumably to be passed to Cameron). Post Brexit, the EU intends to make an unconditional offer to Scotland to join the EU on the same terms (+the Euro) as the UK currently has. This *may* explain Cameron's sudden panic
- My Paris contact (extremely close to people who know Cameron very well) says that he is a dipshit. Utterly thick and disconnected from the detail, which is why he gets tripped up so often. I quote precisely
- France is terrified that the UK will leave, and result in them facing Germany alone. The French block (Spain/Portugal/Italy/Greece) has crumbled. Spain and Portugal are voting with Germany on everything to suck up. Italy is voting randomnly and unpredictably. Only Greece is reliably supporting France..and if you are in the same camp as Greece...
- Germany sees Brexit as a win/win. If the UK stays they have a net contributor and reliablish ally against France. If the UK leaves Western Europe looks more and more like the 4th Reich. The actual parallel this guy used was 1870...0 -
That turned on the very technical wording of the Act which spells out in detail what amounts to a transfer and what does not. The fact that opting in to the Criminal Justice opt outs did not fall within those detailed provisions is very, very unlikely to have been an accident.runnymede said:'Remember that the referendum lock remains in place. Any treaty or agreement that transfers more power to Europe is still going to trigger another referendum. Where all the disappointed Leavers will be saying we told you so.'
The referendum lock is meaningless. The government will simply deny there has been any transfer. Look what happened over the criminal justice opt-ins.0 -
A cast iron promise then.TheScreamingEagles said:
Nope.Alanbrooke said:
So if leave win there won't be any sore losers in the Remain camp. No second vote that kind of thing ?TheScreamingEagles said:
There's a danger that leave end up looking like sore losers and as a country we don't like sore losers.Casino_Royale said:
Why should I stop campaigning for what I believe is right? And unlike the EU it is for the people to make that decision, rather than stripping it away from them.TheScreamingEagles said:
You're like the EU. You won't accept the will of the people until they give the right result.Casino_Royale said:
No, it won't. There will be half the party voting Leave, 100 BOO MPs and 40% of the country. It won't be settled.Philip_Thompson said:
I wouldn't be so sure about the divide, so long as the result is divisive enough to settle it for a generation. Last time there was a referendum it was because of a divide in the Labour Party. Fast forward 30 years and Labour was fairly united on the subject.Casino_Royale said:
For me, this issue will never be settled until we Leave. Nor will the ancient divide in the Conservative Party over Europe.Sean_F said:
If people feel they've been blackmailed into voting Remain, then I agree that it's unlikely to settle the issue.Cyclefree said:
ARichard_Nabavi said:
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.Sean_F said:So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
The only way this ends is if we Leave.
If a week is a long time in politics, a generation is an eternity.
And I wouldn't stop campaigning for an exit even if it were a landslide.
You forget: I didn't want this referendum and think it's a strategic error. My approach would have only been to call one once there was an overwhelming clamour to leave, with clear and consistent double digit poll leads.
I fear this one will close the issue down and lock us in for a long time.
Clamouring for another referendum and losing it really will keep us in the EU for a generation.
Vox populi, vox Dei.
Dave has said, we vote to leave, we leave. No rerun.
Remain aren't like the Scot Nats you know.0 -
Those were different circumstances. The humiliation inflicted on the leaving country seeing an important part of it rejoining the EU vastly outweighs any fears of encouraging separatist movements elsewhere.john_zims said:
Only 18 months ago the EU hierarchy was telling anyone that would listen that if Scotland became independent it would have to join the EU entry queue along with other countries and it could take years.0 -
Awkward.John_M said:
The only thing that's sustaining my will to live through referendum thread part 330 of several thousand is the absence of SNP zealots. Why did you have to write this? Why? You might just as well stand in front of the bathroom mirror chanting "Candyman".TheScreamingEagles said:Awkward.
Scottish Gov say set up costs of new welfare powers may be £660m. They once said entire set up costs for independence would only be £250m!
http://tinyurl.com/opj86lf0 -
It's not unusual for generals to fight the last war. This may be what is happening here.Richard_Tyndall said:
The only changes that are coming are yet more unification. I have no idea what you can see but whatever it is doesn't seem to match reality.Philip_Thompson said:
Who saw it changing last time either? But change it did.Casino_Royale said:
The Tory party has been moving in an increasingly eurosceptic direction for over 20 years. Given the changes on the horizon for the EU, and what we know of UK politics at the moment, i can't see that changing.Philip_Thompson said:How is that any different to Labour in the seventies? And yet by the nineties and noughties the Labour Party was pretty united and we spoke of Tory divisions.
The changes I see coming for the EU move the EU more in the Tory direction than the Delors/Labour direction that caused the shift last time but the future is not certain.
Dreams of Unification are dying a death in front of our eyes in real time. On migration Schengen is on life support at best. On economics the Greeks hate the Germans, while the Dutch loathe the Greeks.
A Dutch friend of mine who is so pro-EU he'd make Ken Clarke look like Farage suddenly thinks the British referendum is moot as the EU is going to die soon anyway so what's the point. I don't agree but attitudes are changing.
On international trade and competition the Eurozone is struggling more and more and the idea that unification eliminates competition is being shown to be a fallacy as the competition simply comes from outside otherwise. Nations are trying to find ways to boost their own economies and are more concerned with that than unification to remove competition.
The fast and rapid drive to unification that Delors led went too far, too fast and is having repercussions now that are now coming to fruition.0 -
It wouldn't be very funny for the Scottish government who would presumably have to cut their deficit to 3% of GDP to comply with EZ rules. The last estimate I saw, with the oil price at the current level, was more like 9% of GDP.Richard_Nabavi said:@Charles - Scotland being forced to adopt the Euro would be entertaining, at least for those in England.
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Corrected it for you!Richard_Tyndall said:
LEAVE = The Rebel AllianceCasino_Royale said:
LEAVE = United Federation of PlanetsSunil_Prasannan said:
WHO GOVERNS BRITAIN?TheScreamingEagles said:
There's a danger that leave end up looking like sore losers and as a country we don't like sore losers.Casino_Royale said:
Why should I stop campaigning for what I believe is right? And unlike the EU it is for the people to make that decision, rather than stripping it away from them.TheScreamingEagles said:
You're like the EU. You won't accept the will of the people until they give the right result.Casino_Royale said:
No, it won't. There will be half the party voting Leave, 100 BOO MPs and 40% of the country. It won't be settled.Philip_Thompson said:
I wouldn't be so sure about the divide, so long as the result is divisive enough to settle it for a generation. Last time there was a referendum it was because of a divide in the Labour Party. Fast forward 30 years and Labour was fairly united on the subject.Casino_Royale said:
For me, this issue will never be settled until we Leave. Nor will the ancient divide in the Conservative Party over Europe.Sean_F said:
If people feel they've been blackmailed into voting Remain, then I agree that it's unlikely to settle the issue.Cyclefree said:
ARichard_Nabavi said:
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.Sean_F said:So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
The only way this ends is if we Leave.
If a week is a long time in politics, a generation is an eternity.
And I wouldn't stop campaigning for an exit even if it were a landslide.
You forget: I didn't want this referendum and think it's a strategic error. My approach would have only been to call one once there was an overwhelming clamour to leave, with clear and consistent double digit poll leads.
I fear this one will close the issue down and lock us in for a long time.
Clamouring for another referendum and losing it really will keep us in the EU for a generation.
LEAVE = Britain
REMAIN = Brussels
REMAIN = The Dominium
REMAIN = The Galactic Empire
0 -
and this is the club you want us pay billions to stay in....???? LOL.Philip_Thompson said:
It's not unusual for generals to fight the last war. This may be what is happening here.Richard_Tyndall said:
The only changes that are coming are yet more unification. I have no idea what you can see but whatever it is doesn't seem to match reality.Philip_Thompson said:
Who saw it changing last time either? But change it did.Casino_Royale said:
The Tory party has been moving in an increasingly eurosceptic direction for over 20 years. Given the changes on the horizon for the EU, and what we know of UK politics at the moment, i can't see that changing.Philip_Thompson said:How is that any different to Labour in the seventies? And yet by the nineties and noughties the Labour Party was pretty united and we spoke of Tory divisions.
The changes I see coming for the EU move the EU more in the Tory direction than the Delors/Labour direction that caused the shift last time but the future is not certain.
Dreams of Unification are dying a death in front of our eyes in real time. On migration Schengen is on life support at best. On economics the Greeks hate the Germans, while the Dutch loathe the Greeks.
A Dutch friend of mine who is so pro-EU he'd make Ken Clarke look like Farage suddenly thinks the British referendum is moot as the EU is going to die soon anyway so what's the point. I don't agree but attitudes are changing.
On international trade and competition the Eurozone is struggling more and more and the idea that unification eliminates competition is being shown to be a fallacy as the competition simply comes from outside otherwise. Nations are trying to find ways to boost their own economies and are more concerned with that than unification to remove competition.
The fast and rapid drive to unification that Delors led went too far, too fast and is having repercussions now that are now coming to fruition.0 -
Like meCasino_Royale said:
The change in the Tory party may be a softening of attitudes towards immigration from social conservatism, depending on who wins the next leadership election.Philip_Thompson said:
Who saw it changing last time either? But change it did.Casino_Royale said:
The Tory party has been moving in an increasingly eurosceptic direction for over 20 years. Given the changes on the horizon for the EU, and what we know of UK politics at the moment, i can't see that changing.Philip_Thompson said:How is that any different to Labour in the seventies? And yet by the nineties and noughties the Labour Party was pretty united and we spoke of Tory divisions.
The changes I see coming for the EU move the EU more in the Tory direction than the Delors/Labour direction that caused the shift last time but the future is not certain.
Given where the country is at, I think that's crazy, but I'm astonished at how many Tories I meet who have very liberal views on it and are dismissive of controls..
The idea of closed shops to boost wages is a left-wing antiquated idea to me not a right-wing one.0 -
I think the point you miss is that the degree of integration that has already occurred is unsustainable without further integration. Given the choice between moving forward into full federalism and seeing everything they have at the moment collapse I have no doubt that the Eurozone states at least will opt for further integration.Philip_Thompson said:
It's not unusual for generals to fight the last war. This may be what is happening here.Richard_Tyndall said:
The only changes that are coming are yet more unification. I have no idea what you can see but whatever it is doesn't seem to match reality.Philip_Thompson said:
Who saw it changing last time either? But change it did.Casino_Royale said:
The Tory party has been moving in an increasingly eurosceptic direction for over 20 years. Given the changes on the horizon for the EU, and what we know of UK politics at the moment, i can't see that changing.Philip_Thompson said:How is that any different to Labour in the seventies? And yet by the nineties and noughties the Labour Party was pretty united and we spoke of Tory divisions.
The changes I see coming for the EU move the EU more in the Tory direction than the Delors/Labour direction that caused the shift last time but the future is not certain.
Dreams of Unification are dying a death in front of our eyes in real time. On migration Schengen is on life support at best. On economics the Greeks hate the Germans, while the Dutch loathe the Greeks.
A Dutch friend of mine who is so pro-EU he'd make Ken Clarke look like Farage suddenly thinks the British referendum is moot as the EU is going to die soon anyway so what's the point. I don't agree but attitudes are changing.
On international trade and competition the Eurozone is struggling more and more and the idea that unification eliminates competition is being shown to be a fallacy as the competition simply comes from outside otherwise. Nations are trying to find ways to boost their own economies and are more concerned with that than unification to remove competition.
The fast and rapid drive to unification that Delors led went too far, too fast and is having repercussions now that are now coming to fruition.
0 -
The whole point would be the differential vote in Scotland & England. If Scotland votes Leave, however unenthusiastically, any hypothetical EU offer (or talk of a second Indy referendum) would be meaningless.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Taffys, if someone's a Yes voter, it's quite a big reason to vote Leave, is it not?
0 -
Yes. Because for all its bad points the EU has gone ones, free trade, the single market (and in my eyes free movement). If the bad points that we opposed are being slowly reversed then that leaves an EU that is even more to our liking.taffys said:
and this is the club you want us pay billions to stay in....???? LOL.Philip_Thompson said:
It's not unusual for generals to fight the last war. This may be what is happening here.Richard_Tyndall said:
The only changes that are coming are yet more unification. I have no idea what you can see but whatever it is doesn't seem to match reality.Philip_Thompson said:
Who saw it changing last time either? But change it did.Casino_Royale said:
The Tory party has been moving in an increasingly eurosceptic direction for over 20 years. Given the changes on the horizon for the EU, and what we know of UK politics at the moment, i can't see that changing.Philip_Thompson said:How is that any different to Labour in the seventies? And yet by the nineties and noughties the Labour Party was pretty united and we spoke of Tory divisions.
The changes I see coming for the EU move the EU more in the Tory direction than the Delors/Labour direction that caused the shift last time but the future is not certain.
Dreams of Unification are dying a death in front of our eyes in real time. On migration Schengen is on life support at best. On economics the Greeks hate the Germans, while the Dutch loathe the Greeks.
A Dutch friend of mine who is so pro-EU he'd make Ken Clarke look like Farage suddenly thinks the British referendum is moot as the EU is going to die soon anyway so what's the point. I don't agree but attitudes are changing.
On international trade and competition the Eurozone is struggling more and more and the idea that unification eliminates competition is being shown to be a fallacy as the competition simply comes from outside otherwise. Nations are trying to find ways to boost their own economies and are more concerned with that than unification to remove competition.
The fast and rapid drive to unification that Delors led went too far, too fast and is having repercussions now that are now coming to fruition.0 -
-
And that we've had the AV thread by then!Casino_Royale said:
I just hope we've quit the EU by then.MarqueeMark said:
We've barely got 5 billion years left in our Sun!Richard_Tyndall said:OT
The future of data storage. 13.8 billion year lifespan they say.
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/five-dimensional-glass-discs-store-183747050.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=fb0 -
It's OK, I expect the Troika officials would have pretty much finished their job in Greece by then, so would be available to assist Nicola.DavidL said:
It wouldn't be very funny for the Scottish government who would presumably have to cut their deficit to 3% of GDP to comply with EZ rules. The last estimate I saw, with the oil price at the current level, was more like 9% of GDP.Richard_Nabavi said:@Charles - Scotland being forced to adopt the Euro would be entertaining, at least for those in England.
0 -
Some on here are suggesting that if remain win there will be a second referendum in time. How does anyone think another referendum would get past the HOC and the Lords in the foreseeable future.0
-
While you miss is that some things are already collapsing. When push comes to shove the Dutch are Dutch before they are Europeans as are all other nations. Between giving a blank cheque to Greece or letting them possibly fail if they don't sort their stuff out they'd sooner let them fail. Between taking unlimited migrants through Schengen or putting borders back up we seen borders go up.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think the point you miss is that the degree of integration that has already occurred is unsustainable without further integration. Given the choice between moving forward into full federalism and seeing everything they have at the moment collapse I have no doubt that the Eurozone states at least will opt for further integration.Philip_Thompson said:
It's not unusual for generals to fight the last war. This may be what is happening here.Richard_Tyndall said:
The only changes that are coming are yet more unification. I have no idea what you can see but whatever it is doesn't seem to match reality.Philip_Thompson said:
Who saw it changing last time either? But change it did.Casino_Royale said:
The Tory party has been moving in an increasingly eurosceptic direction for over 20 years. Given the changes on the horizon for the EU, and what we know of UK politics at the moment, i can't see that changing.Philip_Thompson said:How is that any different to Labour in the seventies? And yet by the nineties and noughties the Labour Party was pretty united and we spoke of Tory divisions.
The changes I see coming for the EU move the EU more in the Tory direction than the Delors/Labour direction that caused the shift last time but the future is not certain.
Dreams of Unification are dying a death in front of our eyes in real time. On migration Schengen is on life support at best. On economics the Greeks hate the Germans, while the Dutch loathe the Greeks.
A Dutch friend of mine who is so pro-EU he'd make Ken Clarke look like Farage suddenly thinks the British referendum is moot as the EU is going to die soon anyway so what's the point. I don't agree but attitudes are changing.
On international trade and competition the Eurozone is struggling more and more and the idea that unification eliminates competition is being shown to be a fallacy as the competition simply comes from outside otherwise. Nations are trying to find ways to boost their own economies and are more concerned with that than unification to remove competition.
The fast and rapid drive to unification that Delors led went too far, too fast and is having repercussions now that are now coming to fruition.
Full integration is not inevitable. If the price is too high, Schengen can and will die.0 -
We had an AV thread this year.RobD said:
And that we've had the AV thread by then!Casino_Royale said:
I just hope we've quit the EU by then.MarqueeMark said:
We've barely got 5 billion years left in our Sun!Richard_Tyndall said:OT
The future of data storage. 13.8 billion year lifespan they say.
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/five-dimensional-glass-discs-store-183747050.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=fb
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/01/24/electoral-reform-might-not-be-the-panacea-the-left-think-it-is/0 -
It was never likely to take years. Scotland's laws are already entirely compliant with the EU so all the usual preliminaries in getting the 32 (?) accession chapters can simply be signed off on day one. There might be some political haggling about opt-outs but by and large the treaty writes itself. I'd be amazed if an independent Scotland couldn't break the record for the fastest accession from acceptance as a candidate through to membership.john_zims said:'SeanT
:
'Fascinating. The Scotland thing could be a bluff, of course. But a clever one.'
No doubt a bluff but could well backfire as a win win for some voters.
Only 18 months ago the EU hierarchy was telling anyone that would listen that if Scotland became independent it would have to join the EU entry queue along with other countries and it could take years.
However, it's still a bluff. The EU cannot have a formal position on any potential Scottish application for all sorts of reasons. 1. There is no such application. 2. The non-UK EU members haven't been negotiating on this - we'd have heard more about it were that the case and such an offer would have to be agreed by all 27. 3. EU members with their own separatist regions would be unlikely to go along with that kind of plan.0 -
And the idea of importing millions of immigrants to keep wages down is....right wing??? left wing??? ever voted for by anybody???Philip_Thompson said:
Like meCasino_Royale said:
The change in the Tory party may be a softening of attitudes towards immigration from social conservatism, depending on who wins the next leadership election.Philip_Thompson said:
Who saw it changing last time either? But change it did.Casino_Royale said:
The Tory party has been moving in an increasingly eurosceptic direction for over 20 years. Given the changes on the horizon for the EU, and what we know of UK politics at the moment, i can't see that changing.Philip_Thompson said:How is that any different to Labour in the seventies? And yet by the nineties and noughties the Labour Party was pretty united and we spoke of Tory divisions.
The changes I see coming for the EU move the EU more in the Tory direction than the Delors/Labour direction that caused the shift last time but the future is not certain.
Given where the country is at, I think that's crazy, but I'm astonished at how many Tories I meet who have very liberal views on it and are dismissive of controls..
The idea of closed shops to boost wages is a left-wing antiquated idea to me not a right-wing one.0 -
I've got two words for you. Claire Ridge.Richard_Nabavi said:
It's OK, I expect the Troika officials would have pretty much finished their job in Greece by then, so would be available to assist Nicola.DavidL said:
It wouldn't be very funny for the Scottish government who would presumably have to cut their deficit to 3% of GDP to comply with EZ rules. The last estimate I saw, with the oil price at the current level, was more like 9% of GDP.Richard_Nabavi said:@Charles - Scotland being forced to adopt the Euro would be entertaining, at least for those in England.
0 -
B Ark, obviously.
Pulpstar said:
It's the data storage system we need for the ark.MarqueeMark said:
We've barely got 5 billion years left in our Sun!Richard_Tyndall said:OT
The future of data storage. 13.8 billion year lifespan they say.
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/five-dimensional-glass-discs-store-183747050.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=fb
They are probably banking no-one taking them back to complain if their lifespan is only ten billon.....0 -
Schengen is not vital. It is a convenience. The Eurozone is vital - at least to those already in it - and that demands far greater political integration to survive.Philip_Thompson said:
While you miss is that some things are already collapsing. When push comes to shove the Dutch are Dutch before they are Europeans as are all other nations. Between giving a blank cheque to Greece or letting them possibly fail if they don't sort their stuff out they'd sooner let them fail. Between taking unlimited migrants through Schengen or putting borders back up we seen borders go up.
Full integration is not inevitable. If the price is too high, Schengen can and will die.0 -
BAGHDAD, Feb 17 (Reuters) - Iraq is searching for "highly dangerous" radioactive material stolen last year, according to an environment ministry document and seven security, environmental and provincial officials who fear it could be used as a weapon if acquired by Islamic State.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reuters/article-3451276/Radioactive-material-stolen-Iraq-raises-security-fears.html#ixzz40RVhMWIZ
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They are not. And more to the point you can have your free trade, single market and free movement without being in the EU.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes. Because for all its bad points the EU has gone ones, free trade, the single market (and in my eyes free movement). If the bad points that we opposed are being slowly reversed then that leaves an EU that is even more to our liking.taffys said:
and this is the club you want us pay billions to stay in....???? LOL.Philip_Thompson said:
It's not unusual for generals to fight the last war. This may be what is happening here.Richard_Tyndall said:
The only changes that are coming are yet more unification. I have no idea what you can see but whatever it is doesn't seem to match reality.Philip_Thompson said:
Who saw it changing last time either? But change it did.Casino_Royale said:
The Tory party has been moving in an increasingly eurosceptic direction for over 20 years. Given the changes on the horizon for the EU, and what we know of UK politics at the moment, i can't see that changing.Philip_Thompson said:How is that any different to Labour in the seventies? And yet by the nineties and noughties the Labour Party was pretty united and we spoke of Tory divisions.
The changes I see coming for the EU move the EU more in the Tory direction than the Delors/Labour direction that caused the shift last time but the future is not certain.
Dreams of Unification are dying a death in front of our eyes in real time. On migration Schengen is on life support at best. On economics the Greeks hate the Germans, while the Dutch loathe the Greeks.
A Dutch friend of mine who is so pro-EU he'd make Ken Clarke look like Farage suddenly thinks the British referendum is moot as the EU is going to die soon anyway so what's the point. I don't agree but attitudes are changing.
On international trade and competition the Eurozone is struggling more and more and the idea that unification eliminates competition is being shown to be a fallacy as the competition simply comes from outside otherwise. Nations are trying to find ways to boost their own economies and are more concerned with that than unification to remove competition.
The fast and rapid drive to unification that Delors led went too far, too fast and is having repercussions now that are now coming to fruition.
Are you actually in favour of the EU increasing our energy bills or our food costs?0 -
The equivalent graph for Indyref showed similar narrowing, followed by a 10 point winSeanT said:To repeat, you have to be a very confident REMAINIAN not to find the graph on here wholly unnerving.
It's very very close.
51:49
http://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls/0 -
I wouldn't trust polls at this stage, no correction I do not trust polls!!SeanT said:To repeat, you have to be a very confident REMAINIAN not to find the graph on here wholly unnerving.
It's very very close.
51:49
http://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls/0 -
@hopisen: North Korea? Seriously? Ken promised to f*ck off when he lost. He still hasn't f*cked off. He should really f*ck off https://t.co/OpZdyyxt200
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The Scottish polls never got as close as 51/49 IIRC.Scott_P said:
The equivalent graph for Indyref showed similar narrowing, followed by a 10 point winSeanT said:To repeat, you have to be a very confident REMAINIAN not to find the graph on here wholly unnerving.
It's very very close.
51:49
http://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls/0 -
4 months out it was 51:49 on average was it? BlimeyScott_P said:
The equivalent graph for Indyref showed similar narrowing, followed by a 10 point winSeanT said:To repeat, you have to be a very confident REMAINIAN not to find the graph on here wholly unnerving.
It's very very close.
51:49
http://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls/0 -
Not vital enough to give Greece a blank cheque though. The Eurozone has brought nationalism back to a high point for nations rather than remove it. The last decade has made the plausibility of Greek voters and German voters seeing themselves as part of the same nation being further than ever.Richard_Tyndall said:
Schengen is not vital. It is a convenience. The Eurozone is vital - at least to those already in it - and that demands far greater political integration to survive.Philip_Thompson said:
While you miss is that some things are already collapsing. When push comes to shove the Dutch are Dutch before they are Europeans as are all other nations. Between giving a blank cheque to Greece or letting them possibly fail if they don't sort their stuff out they'd sooner let them fail. Between taking unlimited migrants through Schengen or putting borders back up we seen borders go up.
Full integration is not inevitable. If the price is too high, Schengen can and will die.0 -
The whole story is a load of cobblers.david_herdson said:
It was never likely to take years. Scotland's laws are already entirely compliant with the EU so all the usual preliminaries in getting the 32 (?) accession chapters can simply be signed off on day one. There might be some political haggling about opt-outs but by and large the treaty writes itself. I'd be amazed if an independent Scotland couldn't break the record for the fastest accession from acceptance as a candidate through to membership.john_zims said:'SeanT
:
'Fascinating. The Scotland thing could be a bluff, of course. But a clever one.'
No doubt a bluff but could well backfire as a win win for some voters.
Only 18 months ago the EU hierarchy was telling anyone that would listen that if Scotland became independent it would have to join the EU entry queue along with other countries and it could take years.
However, it's still a bluff. The EU cannot have a formal position on any potential Scottish application for all sorts of reasons. 1. There is no such application. 2. The non-UK EU members haven't been negotiating on this - we'd have heard more about it were that the case and such an offer would have to be agreed by all 27. 3. EU members with their own separatist regions would be unlikely to go along with that kind of plan.0 -
The idea of free trade and letting the market take care of it is right wing to me.taffys said:
And the idea of importing millions of immigrants to keep wages down is....right wing??? left wing??? ever voted for by anybody???Philip_Thompson said:
Like meCasino_Royale said:
The change in the Tory party may be a softening of attitudes towards immigration from social conservatism, depending on who wins the next leadership election.Philip_Thompson said:
Who saw it changing last time either? But change it did.Casino_Royale said:
The Tory party has been moving in an increasingly eurosceptic direction for over 20 years. Given the changes on the horizon for the EU, and what we know of UK politics at the moment, i can't see that changing.Philip_Thompson said:How is that any different to Labour in the seventies? And yet by the nineties and noughties the Labour Party was pretty united and we spoke of Tory divisions.
The changes I see coming for the EU move the EU more in the Tory direction than the Delors/Labour direction that caused the shift last time but the future is not certain.
Given where the country is at, I think that's crazy, but I'm astonished at how many Tories I meet who have very liberal views on it and are dismissive of controls..
The idea of closed shops to boost wages is a left-wing antiquated idea to me not a right-wing one.0 -
I don't see turnout being any higher than at the general election (66%) and the likelihood is it will be a bit lower, probably around 60%.SeanT said:
I know, which is why I am predicting an indyreffish result.Scott_P said:
The equivalent graph for Indyref showed similar narrowing, followed by a 10 point winSeanT said:To repeat, you have to be a very confident REMAINIAN not to find the graph on here wholly unnerving.
It's very very close.
51:49
http://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls/
That said there are huge differences between them, which complicates things for REMAIN. There is no residual loyalty to the EU, as there is for Britain. The EU is not a cause which will evoke a 90% turnout, with the silent majority of Europhiles winning the day...
It's all about turnout. LEAVERS are more impassioned. Hmm.0 -
I view the free movement of people (values, cultures, religions and ideas) completely differently to that of capital (money) goods (cars and dishwashers) and services (insurance policies and consultancy)Philip_Thompson said:
Like meCasino_Royale said:
The change in the Tory party may be a softening of attitudes towards immigration from social conservatism, depending on who wins the next leadership election.Philip_Thompson said:
Who saw it changing last time either? But change it did.Casino_Royale said:
The Tory party has been moving in an increasingly eurosceptic direction for over 20 years. Given the changes on the horizon for the EU, and what we know of UK politics at the moment, i can't see that changing.Philip_Thompson said:How is that any different to Labour in the seventies? And yet by the nineties and noughties the Labour Party was pretty united and we spoke of Tory divisions.
The changes I see coming for the EU move the EU more in the Tory direction than the Delors/Labour direction that caused the shift last time but the future is not certain.
Given where the country is at, I think that's crazy, but I'm astonished at how many Tories I meet who have very liberal views on it and are dismissive of controls..
The idea of closed shops to boost wages is a left-wing antiquated idea to me not a right-wing one.
You can return a faulty good, throw it away, exchange it or buy something else. Likewise you can cancel a contract or insurance policy, or exchange your money for another currency. Nothing affects the demos.
Conversely, you cannot do any of that with people; they have rights and votes and can fundamentally change the sociocultural character of a country and its political character. So they must be treated differently.
There was a time when such views were totally uncontroversial in the Conservative Party.0 -
Anyone with a Bet Victor account they don't mind being closed/marked up should go
Anthony Martial OVER 10.5 goals at 6/5 I reckon
Roo out for 2 months
EDIT: 5/6 now0 -
3 is the killer point. Spain would never agree to this.david_herdson said:
It was never likely to take years. Scotland's laws are already entirely compliant with the EU so all the usual preliminaries in getting the 32 (?) accession chapters can simply be signed off on day one. There might be some political haggling about opt-outs but by and large the treaty writes itself. I'd be amazed if an independent Scotland couldn't break the record for the fastest accession from acceptance as a candidate through to membership.john_zims said:'SeanT
:
'Fascinating. The Scotland thing could be a bluff, of course. But a clever one.'
No doubt a bluff but could well backfire as a win win for some voters.
Only 18 months ago the EU hierarchy was telling anyone that would listen that if Scotland became independent it would have to join the EU entry queue along with other countries and it could take years.
However, it's still a bluff. The EU cannot have a formal position on any potential Scottish application for all sorts of reasons. 1. There is no such application. 2. The non-UK EU members haven't been negotiating on this - we'd have heard more about it were that the case and such an offer would have to be agreed by all 27. 3. EU members with their own separatist regions would be unlikely to go along with that kind of plan.0 -
Both left and right are utterly compromised by free movement of cheap foreign labourPhilip_Thompson said:
The idea of free trade and letting the market take care of it is right wing to me.taffys said:
And the idea of importing millions of immigrants to keep wages down is....right wing??? left wing??? ever voted for by anybody???Philip_Thompson said:
Like meCasino_Royale said:
The change in the Tory party may be a softening of attitudes towards immigration from social conservatism, depending on who wins the next leadership election.Philip_Thompson said:
Who saw it changing last time either? But change it did.Casino_Royale said:
The Tory party has been moving in an increasingly eurosceptic direction for over 20 years. Given the changes on the horizon for the EU, and what we know of UK politics at the moment, i can't see that changing.Philip_Thompson said:How is that any different to Labour in the seventies? And yet by the nineties and noughties the Labour Party was pretty united and we spoke of Tory divisions.
The changes I see coming for the EU move the EU more in the Tory direction than the Delors/Labour direction that caused the shift last time but the future is not certain.
Given where the country is at, I think that's crazy, but I'm astonished at how many Tories I meet who have very liberal views on it and are dismissive of controls..
The idea of closed shops to boost wages is a left-wing antiquated idea to me not a right-wing one.0 -
There was a time when high tariffs and blocking trade through things like the Corn Laws were Conservative ideas too.Casino_Royale said:There was a time when such views were totally uncontroversial in the Conservative Party.
0 -
Scott's confused 'at least 4 months before' with '2 weeks before'.isam said:
4 months out it was 51:49 on average was it? BlimeyScott_P said:
The equivalent graph for Indyref showed similar narrowing, followed by a 10 point winSeanT said:To repeat, you have to be a very confident REMAINIAN not to find the graph on here wholly unnerving.
It's very very close.
51:49
http://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls/0 -
The UK is not in Schengen because we could see its central flaw. To work adequately its requires a totally independent ie central federal controlling border police body. A central immigration control. The Euro and Schengen lead inevitably to a central controlling body that is bypassing individual governments. This is real loss of sovereignty.Philip_Thompson said:
While you miss is that some things are already collapsing. When push comes to shove the Dutch are Dutch before they are Europeans as are all other nations. Between giving a blank cheque to Greece or letting them possibly fail if they don't sort their stuff out they'd sooner let them fail. Between taking unlimited migrants through Schengen or putting borders back up we seen borders go up.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think the point you miss is that the degree of integration that has already occurred is unsustainable without further integration. Given the choice between moving forward into full federalism and seeing everything they have at the moment collapse I have no doubt that the Eurozone states at least will opt for further integration.Philip_Thompson said:
It's not unusual for generals to fight the last war. This may be what is happening here.Richard_Tyndall said:
The only changes that are coming are yet more unification. I have no idea what you can see but whatever it is doesn't seem to match reality.Philip_Thompson said:
Who saw it changing last time either? But change it did.Casino_Royale said:
The Tory party has been moving in an increasingly eurosceptic direction for over 20 years. Given the changes on the horizon for the EU, and what we know of UK politics at the moment, i can't see that changing.Philip_Thompson said:How is that any different to Labour in the seventies? And yet by the nineties and noughties the Labour Party was pretty united and we spoke of Tory divisions.
The changes I see coming for the EU move the EU more in the Tory direction than the Delors/Labour direction that caused the shift last time but the future is not certain.
A Dutch friend of mine who is so pro-EU he'd make Ken Clarke look like Farage suddenly thinks the British referendum is moot as the EU is going to die soon anyway so what's the point. I don't agree but attitudes are changing.
...
The fast and rapid drive to unification that Delors led went too far, too fast and is having repercussions now that are now coming to fruition.
Full integration is not inevitable. If the price is too high, Schengen can and will die.
And of course we are not part of that.0 -
Its not inevitable if the nations concerned are not willing to pay that price. That the rest of Europe are waking up and seeing the flaws (and seeing them as flaws) now make them more like us not less.flightpath01 said:
The UK is not in Schengen because we could see its central flaw. To work adequately its requires a totally independent ie central federal controlling border police body. A central immigration control. The Euro and Schengen lead inevitably to a central controlling body that is bypassing individual governments. This is real loss of sovereignty.Philip_Thompson said:While you miss is that some things are already collapsing. When push comes to shove the Dutch are Dutch before they are Europeans as are all other nations. Between giving a blank cheque to Greece or letting them possibly fail if they don't sort their stuff out they'd sooner let them fail. Between taking unlimited migrants through Schengen or putting borders back up we seen borders go up.
Full integration is not inevitable. If the price is too high, Schengen can and will die.
And of course we are not part of that.0 -
As a supposed supporter of free trade I'm still amazed you want to stay in the EU, where protectionist instincts keep African farmers in penury.Philip_Thompson said:
There was a time when high tariffs and blocking trade through things like the Corn Laws were Conservative ideas too.Casino_Royale said:There was a time when such views were totally uncontroversial in the Conservative Party.
0 -
Why forget Northern Ireland?AndyJS said:The biggest problem with the referendum is there's a pretty high chance that either Scotland has to leave the EU despite voting in favour of it, or England has to stay in despite having voted to leave.
In any event we are all one country.0 -
@williamglenn
'It's pretty obvious that the EU would become an ally of UK separatists in the event of a Leave vote.'
It's also pretty obvious that Spain among others would veto it.0 -
I think he regards Corbyn's victory as an invitation to un-f*ck off.Scott_P said:@hopisen: North Korea? Seriously? Ken promised to f*ck off when he lost. He still hasn't f*cked off. He should really f*ck off https://t.co/OpZdyyxt20
The interesting thing in the article is the potential change to the Labour leadership nomination rules aimed at this autumn's conference. If they go through, then by far the biggest barrier to the left recapturing the leadership should Corbyn fall will have been torn down. Getting 15% was impossible last year without loaned support; finding two people to nominate and second (as suggested in a different article) will be child's play.
The suggestion of the proposed change probably makes it less likely that Corbyn will serve through to 2020, on two grounds. Firstly, it increases the chance that the moderates in the PLP will move against him before conference. I don't think that's particularly likely unless the May elections give them their excuse. That's their one window because if they don't move then, it'll be too late. Secondly, if the change does go through, it'd make it easier for Corbyn to stand down and let someone else from the left run, if he thought he personally was damaging Labour's chances but that someone from his wing could run, win and do better. Again, I'm not saying it's likely but it's more likely than him standing down now when he can be reasonably sure that a left-winger couldn't even run never mind win.0 -
If that was true, David Cameron's requested reforms would be waved through in a trice, and he'd be asked if he wanted crushed nuts on top.Philip_Thompson said:
Its not inevitable if the nations concerned are not willing to pay that price. That the rest of Europe are waking up and seeing the flaws (and seeing them as flaws) now make them more like us not less.flightpath01 said:
The UK is not in Schengen because we could see its central flaw. To work adequately its requires a totally independent ie central federal controlling border police body. A central immigration control. The Euro and Schengen lead inevitably to a central controlling body that is bypassing individual governments. This is real loss of sovereignty.Philip_Thompson said:While you miss is that some things are already collapsing. When push comes to shove the Dutch are Dutch before they are Europeans as are all other nations. Between giving a blank cheque to Greece or letting them possibly fail if they don't sort their stuff out they'd sooner let them fail. Between taking unlimited migrants through Schengen or putting borders back up we seen borders go up.
Full integration is not inevitable. If the price is too high, Schengen can and will die.
And of course we are not part of that.
Your defence of your position is pretty incoherent.0 -
'The UK is not in Schengen because we could see its central flaw. To work adequately its requires a totally independent ie central federal controlling border police body'
That isn't a flaw in the minds of those who set the system up - it's a key part of the whole idea. Just as the euro's creation is now pushing Eurozone members towards pooling their fiscal policies and banking oversight systems.
This is how the EU works - with each integrationist step causing frictions that lead on to further integration.0 -
Where does the Central Bank of Scotland come into this scenario?DavidL said:
It wouldn't be very funny for the Scottish government who would presumably have to cut their deficit to 3% of GDP to comply with EZ rules. The last estimate I saw, with the oil price at the current level, was more like 9% of GDP.Richard_Nabavi said:@Charles - Scotland being forced to adopt the Euro would be entertaining, at least for those in England.
This is always face it just more sad and crap baiting by the Scotland hating mob. Just plain pathetic and a good litmus test of how far pb.com has fallen in its ability to stay rational.0 -
The Netherlands has the highest approval of the Euro of any large economy in Europe. On the TNS polling from November, it's something like 70-15 on "The Euro has been good for the Netherlands". On the Piel subsample, even PVV supporters were 50 on the "Euro good for the Netherlands" question.SeanT said:it's interesting how "anti-British" the Dutch are in Ashcroft's polls. They are in the top tier, in terms of wanting us to shove off if we demand a better deal, or in terms of not caring if we go.
I don't think this is Anglophobia, I think this is resentment and envy. They wish they'd stayed out of the euro and Schengen, like us - and we are getting the emotional backlash. Cf the rise of Wilders.
The large EU country with by far the highest Euro-scepticism is Italy.0 -
People who want to leave are saying they do so because they want to put Britain first. Then they look in askance at other countries who then want to put their own interests first before Britain's.williamglenn said:
It's pretty obvious that the EU would become an ally of UK separatists in the event of a Leave vote.SeanT said:
Fascinating. The Scotland thing could be a bluff, of course. But a clever one.Charles said:Repost from last thread. Sorry have been ducking and diving. I can report that the farmers are happy and wellfed, although worried about Ukraine.
Charles said:Tidbits from Paris. Just off to meet with the farmers
- French Ambassador and Gus O'Donnell had a conversation about 2 weeks ago in a message was passed to G.O.D. (Presumably to be passed to Cameron). Post Brexit, the EU intends to make an unconditional offer to Scotland to join the EU on the same terms (+the Euro) as the UK currently has. This *may* explain Cameron's sudden panic
- My Paris contact (extremely close to people who know Cameron very well) says that he is a dipshit. Utterly thick and disconnected from the detail, which is why he gets tripped up so often. I quote precisely
- France is terrified that the UK will leave, and result in them facing Germany alone. The French block (Spain/Portugal/Italy/Greece) has crumbled. Spain and Portugal are voting with Germany on everything to suck up. Italy is voting randomnly and unpredictably. Only Greece is reliably supporting France..and if you are in the same camp as Greece...
- Germany sees Brexit as a win/win. If the UK stays they have a net contributor and reliablish ally against France. If the UK leaves Western Europe looks more and more like the 4th Reich. The actual parallel this guy used was 1870...0 -
Toby Young in the Spectator:
"It’s not surprising, then, that the cabinet is split along class lines when it comes to the EU. A majority of those in favour — David Cameron, George Osborne, Jeremy Hunt, Amber Rudd, Nicky Morgan — were privately educated, whereas most of those against — Iain Duncan Smith, Chris Grayling, Priti Patel — were state educated. Within the Conservative party, the schism over our membership of the EU is a proxy for the class antagonism between the different wings that’s always been present but rarely rises to the surface."
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/emma-thompson-is-wrong-about-the-eu-and-cake/0 -
The EU has major flaws I don't deny it; and this is one of the biggest of them. On a purely selfish level I see more benefits from unrestricted free trade with the rest of Europe and restricted trade with Africa than I do from potentially unrestricted free trade with Africa and potentially restricted trade with the rest of Europe.taffys said:
As a supposed supporter of free trade I'm still amazed you want to stay in the EU, where protectionist instincts keep African farmers in penury.Philip_Thompson said:
There was a time when high tariffs and blocking trade through things like the Corn Laws were Conservative ideas too.Casino_Royale said:There was a time when such views were totally uncontroversial in the Conservative Party.
0 -
Check up on your reading comprehension. I said they are becoming more like us, not that they are like us completely already.taffys said:
If that was true, David Cameron's requested reforms would be waved through in a trice, and he'd be asked if he wanted crushed nuts on top.Philip_Thompson said:
Its not inevitable if the nations concerned are not willing to pay that price. That the rest of Europe are waking up and seeing the flaws (and seeing them as flaws) now make them more like us not less.flightpath01 said:
The UK is not in Schengen because we could see its central flaw. To work adequately its requires a totally independent ie central federal controlling border police body. A central immigration control. The Euro and Schengen lead inevitably to a central controlling body that is bypassing individual governments. This is real loss of sovereignty.Philip_Thompson said:While you miss is that some things are already collapsing. When push comes to shove the Dutch are Dutch before they are Europeans as are all other nations. Between giving a blank cheque to Greece or letting them possibly fail if they don't sort their stuff out they'd sooner let them fail. Between taking unlimited migrants through Schengen or putting borders back up we seen borders go up.
Full integration is not inevitable. If the price is too high, Schengen can and will die.
And of course we are not part of that.
Your defence of your position is pretty incoherent.0 -
And it looks a barely credible story as well.Casino_Royale said:
Wow. That's fascinating.Charles said:Repost from last thread. Sorry have been ducking and diving. I can report that the farmers are happy and wellfed, although worried about Ukraine.
Charles said:Tidbits from Paris. Just off to meet with the farmers
- French Ambassador and Gus O'Donnell had a conversation about 2 weeks ago in a message was passed to G.O.D. (Presumably to be passed to Cameron). Post Brexit, the EU intends to make an unconditional offer to Scotland to join the EU on the same terms (+the Euro) as the UK currently has. This *may* explain Cameron's sudden panic
- My Paris contact (extremely close to people who know Cameron very well) says that he is a dipshit. Utterly thick and disconnected from the detail, which is why he gets tripped up so often. I quote precisely
- France is terrified that the UK will leave, and result in them facing Germany alone. The French block (Spain/Portugal/Italy/Greece) has crumbled. Spain and Portugal are voting with Germany on everything to suck up. Italy is voting randomnly and unpredictably. Only Greece is reliably supporting France..and if you are in the same camp as Greece...
- Germany sees Brexit as a win/win. If the UK stays they have a net contributor and reliablish ally against France. If the UK leaves Western Europe looks more and more like the 4th Reich. The actual parallel this guy used was 1870...
Doesn't look like Cameron has tried very hard, does it?0 -
No, it's a liberal one.Philip_Thompson said:
The idea of free trade and letting the market take care of it is right wing to me.taffys said:
And the idea of importing millions of immigrants to keep wages down is....right wing??? left wing??? ever voted for by anybody???Philip_Thompson said:
Like meCasino_Royale said:
The change in the Tory party may be a softening of attitudes towards immigration from social conservatism, depending on who wins the next leadership election.Philip_Thompson said:
Who saw it changing last time either? But change it did.Casino_Royale said:
The Tory party has been moving in an increasingly eurosceptic direction for over 20 years. Given the changes on the horizon for the EU, and what we know of UK politics at the moment, i can't see that changing.Philip_Thompson said:How is that any different to Labour in the seventies? And yet by the nineties and noughties the Labour Party was pretty united and we spoke of Tory divisions.
The changes I see coming for the EU move the EU more in the Tory direction than the Delors/Labour direction that caused the shift last time but the future is not certain.
Given where the country is at, I think that's crazy, but I'm astonished at how many Tories I meet who have very liberal views on it and are dismissive of controls..
The idea of closed shops to boost wages is a left-wing antiquated idea to me not a right-wing one.
The right wing case places minimisation of social disruption above the benefits of the unfettered market.0 -
Assuming a EURef Remain vote the upcoming Holyrood elections will be the SNP high water mark. With a majority in Holyrood (presumably) but no immediate chance of a referendum the white hot Indy supporters will leave for fringe parties.MarqueeMark said:
And I can see no reason why it won't play just as well in in 2020 too. Unless the SNP suffers some unlikely-looking meltdown, then it is just as relevant to have Corbyn peering out of Sturgeons décolletage....TheScreamingEagles said:
We also put Miliband in Sturgeon's pocket too.HurstLlama said:
I think it might be more accurate to say that Alex Salmond was more influential that Farage. At anyrate that poster of Salmond with Miliband in his top pocket cost UKIP an awful lot of votes and may even have got Cameron his majority.TheScreamingEagles said:
You could argue that at the last general election, in England, Nicola Sturgeon was more influential than Nigel FarageRichard_Nabavi said:That chart of which individuals would influence the choice is just weird. I don't know what it's measuring, but it certainly isn't measuring what it purports to measure: for example, Nicola Sturgeon more influential on Euurope than Nigel Farage?
http://cdn2.spectator.co.uk/files/2015/04/Sturgeon_Pocket_1200x6283-620x324.jpg
But I agree, the SNP angle turned the Tories into the largest party in a hung parliament into a Tory majority.
Though from my canvassing experiences it was Lab and Lib Dem voters who brought it up the most, unprompted.
That'll cut numbers and cool support for next years council elections where the SNP will 'under perform'. At that point they'll start a natural driftwards down.
OF course with a EURef-Leave-Scotland-Vote-Remain then all bets are off.0 -
I meant on a left/right spectrum of economics not a liberal/authoritarian spectrum.david_herdson said:
No, it's a liberal one.Philip_Thompson said:
The idea of free trade and letting the market take care of it is right wing to me.taffys said:
And the idea of importing millions of immigrants to keep wages down is....right wing??? left wing??? ever voted for by anybody???Philip_Thompson said:
Like meCasino_Royale said:
The change in the Tory party may be a softening of attitudes towards immigration from social conservatism, depending on who wins the next leadership election.Philip_Thompson said:
Who saw it changing last time either? But change it did.Casino_Royale said:
The Tory party has been moving in an increasingly eurosceptic direction for over 20 years. Given the changes on the horizon for the EU, and what we know of UK politics at the moment, i can't see that changing.Philip_Thompson said:How is that any different to Labour in the seventies? And yet by the nineties and noughties the Labour Party was pretty united and we spoke of Tory divisions.
The changes I see coming for the EU move the EU more in the Tory direction than the Delors/Labour direction that caused the shift last time but the future is not certain.
Given where the country is at, I think that's crazy, but I'm astonished at how many Tories I meet who have very liberal views on it and are dismissive of controls..
The idea of closed shops to boost wages is a left-wing antiquated idea to me not a right-wing one.
The right wing case places minimisation of social disruption above the benefits of the unfettered market.
I make no apologies for being a right wing liberal Conservative.0 -
It the usual "less crap than" measure! I don't rate Cameron at all, he is far to flexible with the truth and views principles as an optional extra, but he was (much) less crap than Miliband, so he won. Remain are (a bit) less crap than Leave, so they will probably win, but it is going to be close. At the moment the Conservatives are (massively) less crap than Labour, so they will probably win GE2020.TheScreamingEagles said:If Remain wins it is going down to Cameron's influence.
None of the winners here are much cop, they are all a bit crap, but they are standing again losers that are even more crap. Such is the mediocrity to which our politics has fallen!0 -
breaking: many injured by suspected car bomb in Ankara...
Update: "many dead"0 -
I did suggest the groat (on your behalf) and my contact just laughed. And then started talking about the depth of liquidity in the international groat market.Alanbrooke said:
Little short of madness, but there you go.Richard_Nabavi said:@Charles - Scotland being forced to adopt the Euro would be entertaining, at least for those in England.
0 -
It's funny, I discussed the Dutch thing a few days ago and posted the other questions from Piel. In summary, I think that the PVV has very different roots to the FN in France and UKIP in the UK. It is a reaction to what I call "too much tolerance of intolerance", and which is a particular issue in the Netherlands. In particular, I think it's interesting that - while the FN and UKIP opposed gay marriage - the PVV has been at the forefront of gay rights in the Netherlands and has called out the inherent homophobia of much of Islam.SeanT said:
Oh stop with your accurate facts. Only joking. So I was wrong about the euro, but I still think Schengen. Otherwise how do we explain this animosity from a country traditionally warm to the UK? Maybe it's just Dutch anality. That protestant sense all should play by the same rules.rcs1000 said:
The Netherlands has the highest approval of the Euro of any large economy in Europe. On the TNS polling from November, it's something like 70-15 on "The Euro has been good for the Netherlands". On the Piel subsample, even PVV supporters were 50 on the "Euro good for the Netherlands" question.SeanT said:it's interesting how "anti-British" the Dutch are in Ashcroft's polls. They are in the top tier, in terms of wanting us to shove off if we demand a better deal, or in terms of not caring if we go.
I don't think this is Anglophobia, I think this is resentment and envy. They wish they'd stayed out of the euro and Schengen, like us - and we are getting the emotional backlash. Cf the rise of Wilders.
The large EU country with by far the highest Euro-scepticism is Italy.
Talking of facts this is a very cool, level-headed analysis of Brexit and its consequences for the British economy. Verdict: pretty much neutral.
Given the cultural and political benefits of Brexit, that = LEAVE.
https://woodfordfunds.com/economic-impact-brexit-report/
I also pointed out that PVV supporters are massively more Europhile than even the Liberal Democrats
0 -
Blimey, I see the FTSE has recovered back to 6k+
That one was kept under the radar !0 -
Well Charles is a far more credible source than you.flightpath01 said:
And it looks a barely credible story as well.Casino_Royale said:
Wow. That's fascinating.Charles said:Repost from last thread. Sorry have been ducking and diving. I can report that the farmers are happy and wellfed, although worried about Ukraine.
Charles said:Tidbits from Paris. Just off to meet with the farmers
- French Ambassador and Gus O'Donnell had a conversation about 2 weeks ago in a message was passed to G.O.D. (Presumably to be passed to Cameron). Post Brexit, the EU intends to make an unconditional offer to Scotland to join the EU on the same terms (+the Euro) as the UK currently has. This *may* explain Cameron's sudden panic
- My Paris contact (extremely close to people who know Cameron very well) says that he is a dipshit. Utterly thick and disconnected from the detail, which is why he gets tripped up so often. I quote precisely
- France is terrified that the UK will leave, and result in them facing Germany alone. The French block (Spain/Portugal/Italy/Greece) has crumbled. Spain and Portugal are voting with Germany on everything to suck up. Italy is voting randomnly and unpredictably. Only Greece is reliably supporting France..and if you are in the same camp as Greece...
- Germany sees Brexit as a win/win. If the UK stays they have a net contributor and reliablish ally against France. If the UK leaves Western Europe looks more and more like the 4th Reich. The actual parallel this guy used was 1870...
Doesn't look like Cameron has tried very hard, does it?0 -
Given that Europe is a mature - some might say stagnating - market whilst Africa is an emerging market with far more scope for expansion then I would suggest you are wrong in that assumption.Philip_Thompson said:
The EU has major flaws I don't deny it; and this is one of the biggest of them. On a purely selfish level I see more benefits from unrestricted free trade with the rest of Europe and restricted trade with Africa than I do from potentially unrestricted free trade with Africa and potentially restricted trade with the rest of Europe.taffys said:
As a supposed supporter of free trade I'm still amazed you want to stay in the EU, where protectionist instincts keep African farmers in penury.Philip_Thompson said:
There was a time when high tariffs and blocking trade through things like the Corn Laws were Conservative ideas too.Casino_Royale said:There was a time when such views were totally uncontroversial in the Conservative Party.
0 -
More importantly, it's a false dichotomy. The choice is not between Free Trade with Europe and Free Trade with Africa.Richard_Tyndall said:
Given that Europe is a mature - some might say stagnating - market whilst Africa is an emerging market with far more scope for expansion then I would suggest you are wrong in that assumption.Philip_Thompson said:
The EU has major flaws I don't deny it; and this is one of the biggest of them. On a purely selfish level I see more benefits from unrestricted free trade with the rest of Europe and restricted trade with Africa than I do from potentially unrestricted free trade with Africa and potentially restricted trade with the rest of Europe.taffys said:
As a supposed supporter of free trade I'm still amazed you want to stay in the EU, where protectionist instincts keep African farmers in penury.Philip_Thompson said:
There was a time when high tariffs and blocking trade through things like the Corn Laws were Conservative ideas too.Casino_Royale said:There was a time when such views were totally uncontroversial in the Conservative Party.
0 -
Why on earth should going to a state school make one want to LEAVE and going to a private one make one want to REMAIN.AndyJS said:Toby Young in the Spectator:
"It’s not surprising, then, that the cabinet is split along class lines when it comes to the EU. A majority of those in favour — David Cameron, George Osborne, Jeremy Hunt, Amber Rudd, Nicky Morgan — were privately educated, whereas most of those against — Iain Duncan Smith, Chris Grayling, Priti Patel — were state educated. Within the Conservative party, the schism over our membership of the EU is a proxy for the class antagonism between the different wings that’s always been present but rarely rises to the surface."
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/emma-thompson-is-wrong-about-the-eu-and-cake/0 -
What we need is 'More Europe'. Then this half-baked mechanism will work better. That's pretty much how it's been since the 80s.runnymede said:'The UK is not in Schengen because we could see its central flaw. To work adequately its requires a totally independent ie central federal controlling border police body'
That isn't a flaw in the minds of those who set the system up - it's a key part of the whole idea. Just as the euro's creation is now pushing Eurozone members towards pooling their fiscal policies and banking oversight systems.
This is how the EU works - with each integrationist step causing frictions that lead on to further integration.0 -
Buggery.OldKingCole said:
Why on earth should going to a state school make one want to LEAVE and going to a private one make one want to REMAIN.AndyJS said:Toby Young in the Spectator:
"It’s not surprising, then, that the cabinet is split along class lines when it comes to the EU. A majority of those in favour — David Cameron, George Osborne, Jeremy Hunt, Amber Rudd, Nicky Morgan — were privately educated, whereas most of those against — Iain Duncan Smith, Chris Grayling, Priti Patel — were state educated. Within the Conservative party, the schism over our membership of the EU is a proxy for the class antagonism between the different wings that’s always been present but rarely rises to the surface."
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/emma-thompson-is-wrong-about-the-eu-and-cake/0 -
NEW South Carolina @MonmouthPoll
Trump 35% (+7)
Cruz 19% (+10)
Rubio 17% (+6)
Kasich 9% (+8)
Bush 8% (+1)
Carson 7% (-21)0 -
That's not the point; the question is how credible Charles' source is.Richard_Tyndall said:
Well Charles is a far more credible source than you.flightpath01 said:
And it looks a barely credible story as well.Casino_Royale said:
Wow. That's fascinating.Charles said:Repost from last thread. Sorry have been ducking and diving. I can report that the farmers are happy and wellfed, although worried about Ukraine.
Charles said:Tidbits from Paris. Just off to meet with the farmers
- French Ambassador and Gus O'Donnell had a conversation about 2 weeks ago in a message was passed to G.O.D. (Presumably to be passed to Cameron). Post Brexit, the EU intends to make an unconditional offer to Scotland to join the EU on the same terms (+the Euro) as the UK currently has. This *may* explain Cameron's sudden panic
- My Paris contact (extremely close to people who know Cameron very well) says that he is a dipshit. Utterly thick and disconnected from the detail, which is why he gets tripped up so often. I quote precisely
- France is terrified that the UK will leave, and result in them facing Germany alone. The French block (Spain/Portugal/Italy/Greece) has crumbled. Spain and Portugal are voting with Germany on everything to suck up. Italy is voting randomnly and unpredictably. Only Greece is reliably supporting France..and if you are in the same camp as Greece...
- Germany sees Brexit as a win/win. If the UK stays they have a net contributor and reliablish ally against France. If the UK leaves Western Europe looks more and more like the 4th Reich. The actual parallel this guy used was 1870...
Doesn't look like Cameron has tried very hard, does it?0 -
The Fix
Hillary Clinton's firewall may be missing some bricks https://t.co/w3nZsVXY9x https://t.co/AtGBAkicos0 -
New Massive Super Tuesday Polling by PPP:
Alabama
Clinton 59%
Sanders 31%
Arkansas
Clinton 57%
Sanders 32%
Georgia
Clinton 60%
Sanders 26%
Massachusetts
Sanders 49%
Clinton 42%
Michigan
Clinton 50%
Sanders 40%
Mississippi
Clinton 60%
Sanders 26%
Oklahoma
Clinton 46%
Sanders 44%
Tennessee
Clinton 58%
Sanders 32%
Texas
Clinton 57%
Sanders 34%
Virginia
Clinton 56%
Sanders 34%
Vermont
Sanders 86%
Clinton 10%
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2015/March2016PrimariesPollingProject.pdf
Sanders leads in 2, with another 2 being close.
They didn't poll Colorado or Minnesota.
Actually 2 of them aren't Super Tuesday states either.0 -
-
I too would say stagnating. But it doesn't matter.Richard_Tyndall said:
Given that Europe is a mature - some might say stagnating - market whilst Africa is an emerging market with far more scope for expansion then I would suggest you are wrong in that assumption.Philip_Thompson said:
The EU has major flaws I don't deny it; and this is one of the biggest of them. On a purely selfish level I see more benefits from unrestricted free trade with the rest of Europe and restricted trade with Africa than I do from potentially unrestricted free trade with Africa and potentially restricted trade with the rest of Europe.taffys said:
As a supposed supporter of free trade I'm still amazed you want to stay in the EU, where protectionist instincts keep African farmers in penury.Philip_Thompson said:
There was a time when high tariffs and blocking trade through things like the Corn Laws were Conservative ideas too.Casino_Royale said:There was a time when such views were totally uncontroversial in the Conservative Party.
European Union GDP $18.495 trillion (including the UK)
EU excluding the UK GDP: $15.5 trillion
Africa $2.39 trillion
It's going to take a remarkably long time before Africa is mature enough to be a good swap.0 -
If only he hadn't looked like Richard O'Brien from the Crystal MazeSeanT said:
Remember Pym Fortuyn. The precursor to Wilders. Fortuyn's "Islamophobia" was closely linked to his gayness. He was first in defining the threat to Dutch liberalism.rcs1000 said:
It's funny, I discussed the Dutch thing a few days ago and posted the other questions from Piel. In summary, I think that the PVV has very different roots to the FN in France and UKIP in the UK. It is a reaction to what I call "too much tolerance of intolerance", and which is a particular issue in the Netherlands. In particular, I think it's interesting that - while the FN and UKIP opposed gay marriage - the PVV has been at the forefront of gay rights in the Netherlands and has called out the inherent homophobia of much of Islam.SeanT said:
Oh stop with your accurate facts. Only joking. So I was wrong about the euro, but I still think Schengen. Otherwise how do we explain this animosity from a country traditionally warm to the UK? Maybe it's just Dutch anality. That protestant sense all should play by the same rules.rcs1000 said:
The Netherlands has the highest approval of the Euro of any large economy in Europe. On the TNS polling from November, it's something like 70-15 on "The Euro has been good for the Netherlands". On the Piel subsample, even PVV supporters were 50 on the "Euro good for the Netherlands" question.SeanT said:it's interesting how "anti-British" the Dutch are in Ashcroft's polls. They are in the top tier, in terms of wanting us to shove off if we demand a better deal, or in terms of not caring if we go.
I don't think this is Anglophobia, I think this is resentment and envy. They wish they'd stayed out of the euro and Schengen, like us - and we are getting the emotional backlash. Cf the rise of Wilders.
The large EU country with by far the highest Euro-scepticism is Italy.
Talking of facts this is a very cool, level-headed analysis of Brexit and its consequences for the British economy. Verdict: pretty much neutral.
Given the cultural and political benefits of Brexit, that = LEAVE.
https://woodfordfunds.com/economic-impact-brexit-report/
I also pointed out that PVV supporters are massively more Europhile than even the Liberal Democrats
He nearly became Dutch PM. I wish he'd succeeded. But, I liked him a lot too.
As an aside, Marion Maréchal-Le Pen is trying to take the FN in a similar direction, and away from the traditional anti big-business, anti-free trade elements of the FN. I don't know if she'll win that battle.0 -
I raised that point.john_zims said:'SeanT
:
'Fascinating. The Scotland thing could be a bluff, of course. But a clever one.'
No doubt a bluff but could well backfire as a win win for some voters.
Only 18 months ago the EU hierarchy was telling anyone that would listen that if Scotland became independent it would have to join the EU entry queue along with other countries and it could take years.
There is a fundamental difference between a member of the EU splitting apart and the break-away region getting automatic membership (cf Catalonia, etc) and the EU inviting a new country that emerges from a non-member (eg Croatia or Slovenia) to join.
Apparently.0 -
'99 was a bubble though.RodCrosby said:0
