If insider reports are to be believed, then Cameron's deal has been unexpectedly badly received if you are in Downing Street. Maybe the Prime Minister didn't see the same polls as Mr Meeks?
The 2015 Conservative Manifesto says this (together with my scorecard):
Real change in our relationship with the European UnionFAILED
Our commitment to you:
For too long, your voice has been ignored on Europe. We will:
- give you a say over whether we should stay in or leave the EU, with an in-out referendum by the end of 2017
- commit to keeping the pound and staying out of the Eurozone
- reform the workings of the EU, which is too big, too bossy and too bureaucratic FAILED
- reclaim power from Brussels on your behalf and safeguard British interests in the Single Market FAILED
back businesses to create jobs in Britain by completing ambitious trade deals and reducing red tape. FAILED  "after the election, we will negotiate a new settlement for Britain in Europe, and th
Bear this manifesto commitment in mind whenettlement for Britain in Europe.
Cameron has codified nomarket and something (faffy)
(yes, I'm heading back over to In-waverer)
Edit: I still think Cam has misplayed this.
I'm spending this week traipsing round Europe, talking to a handful of Germans, Italians French and Dutch about this how mess we're in. The firm view is that the Eurozone *will* vote as a block. It just will happen - and that means Britain is automatically outvoted on every issue. Nothing else really matters - Cameron's got us nothing on the fundamental issue.
If the EU doesn't want to address our legitimate concerns, that's their right. But it shifts the balance for me away from partnership to friendship - and from Remain to Leave.
Well first, it's not a partnership. The most cursory reading of any EU directive will confirm this (they even phrase our not joining the euro as an "entitlement" given to us by them). It is a formal political and economic association from which we have certain exemptions. It is a club where everyone is wearing red shirts and we have asked if we could please wear green ones.
But what are your legitimate concerns? Specifically? I am far from an EU expert but here are mine. Take financial services. OK we have banking union exemption, but take MiFID. Are we better off at the table negotiating with other Member States (albeit badly as @Cyclefree believes), or are we better waiting for the finished document, with no input from the UK, to be sent to us which we must then follow?
What specific concerns do you have about which areas where we are, cf the MiFID example, unambiguously better off outside the EU?
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
Cameron has codified no greater political or economic union, no enforced membership of the euro or of the banking union, greater subsidiarity, no joint defence, a strong internal market and something (faffy) on benefits.
Are people, who might otherwise advocate EEA membership, really going to leave because we give the daughter of a Romanian plumber £20/week vs the £3-odd they'd get if the plumber was in Romania?
(yes, I'm heading back over to In-waverer)
Edit: I still think Cam has misplayed this.
These aren't "wins" by Cameron. They are just the EU admitting where we won't need to tell them to "Fuck off!"
It is not the promised New Settlement for Britain in Europe.
Yes I agree. But as mentioned to @Charles that's not the way the EU see it (our non-adoption of the euro was an "entitlement" given to us by them).
Cam didn't need to promise a new deal, come back with nothing (albeit it is codified, for better or worse), and just get everyone in a tizzy about Romanian plumbers' daughters' benefits.
But I suppose this should also be seen in the context of a popular press and opposition parties who tried to skewer Cam for not signing the fiscal compact, which promised that we would send our spending plans to the EU for approval FFS.
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
No one on here is objective wrt the EU. Leavers arguments are universally "emotive" , which is understandable, and, when people stray into calling someone foolish, also a touch "patronising".
Having said that. When did the cupcakes expand? Last time I had one they were nice dainty things made by the WI. Now they weigh a couple of kilos with a great whopping dollop of butter cream on (according to the pictures I see on t'internet, at least)
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
No one on here is objective wrt the EU. Leavers arguments are universally "emotive" , which is understandable, and, when people stray into calling someone foolish, also a touch "patronising".
Sorry Mr Meeks, you have even less credibility that Mr Nabavi on this issue, your blind hatred of the kippers and all their works I feel has unhinged you. I didn't read the article in detail because frankly, whats the point, any article ending in comments about straight bananas is straight out the LD federalist play book and really life is too short.
Your fatuous attempt to dismiss the second myth is slightly at odd with the facts much as it might sound tempting for a Europhile to believe it. Did you perchance glance at the ITV EU Survey a couple of days ago:
Thinking about the referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, which three of the following will be the most important to you in deciding which way to vote?
Control over the number of EU migrants entering Britain - 53% Control over Britain's laws - 43% The economy - 38%
Good heavens, and there it is, immigration at the top of the list with over half the sample.
Republican Donald Trump will not be president because it's a "serious job", President Barack Obama has said. "I continue to believe that Mr Trump will not be president. And the reason is because I have a lot of faith in the American people," said Mr Obama
He really is every bit as pretentious, shallow and stubborn as he appears. I thought it would be hard for the US to elect an even worse President than George W but with Obama they achieved it. Let us hope he doesn't manage to engineer the 3rd World War with Russia his administration has so eagerly sought, at Europe's cost. Only a few months to go now till he goes.
I apologise if I misquoted you. You are keen on a political union, I believe, and that's fine. You are upfront about that. You probably read the small print better than most. My gripe is that whenever the subject of political union came up, it was dismissed as being a silly conspiracy theory, and let's be honest, Tony Benn was an easy caricature. That was dishonest.
You may have understood the finer points better than most, but if political union had been discussed, and it should have been, the result may have been different.
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
It'd be interesting to see how the cross-tabs have changed since the draft was released between those who felt Cameron would/wouldn't get a good deal, and those who were in favour of In/Out.
Clearly there has been a shift to Leave since the beginning of the month so if the numbers haven't changed between those who thought Cameron would get a good deal and those who thought Cameron has achieved a good deal, then something else must be going on. Is it that the Don't Knows have broken towards Leave, even though there are now more of them (allowing for comparing between different polling companies); is it that the Bad Dealers have moved towards Leave in the light of publication, when before they were more hesitant; is it that people don't feel the negotiation is actually all that relevant and the faffing about is pushing people towards Leave; or something else again?
But it's difficult not to take issue with Alistair on his first point when all three polls since publication have shown a sizable swing to Leave compared with the previous findings of their respective series.
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
No one on here is objective wrt the EU. Leavers arguments are universally "emotive" , which is understandable, and, when people stray into calling someone foolish, also a touch "patronising".
Ah, and there we have it.
I rest my case.
You clearly need the rest. I for one welcome Mr Meeks postings. Without him PB would descend into an echo chamber.
the trend I was identifying was where we the public are not to be trusted with weights and measure such as ounces or grams, based on the fact that media types don't know how big they are and project their own inadequacies onto the rest of us.
100g is a more sensible measure than "25 teaspoons" (or about 4 ounces, if you prefer)
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
No one on here is objective wrt the EU. Leavers arguments are universally "emotive" , which is understandable, and, when people stray into calling someone foolish, also a touch "patronising".
Ah, and there we have it.
I rest my case.
You clearly need the rest. I for one welcome Mr Meeks postings. Without him PB would descend into an echo chamber.
I'm fine, thank you.
I welcome him posting too, and don't even mind him arguing passionately for Remain. It's the tin-ear, repetitiveness and rudeness that worry me - it's very out of character.
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
No one on here is objective wrt the EU. Leavers arguments are universally "emotive" , which is understandable, and, when people stray into calling someone foolish, also a touch "patronising".
Ah, and there we have it.
I rest my case.
You clearly need the rest. I for one welcome Mr Meeks postings. Without him PB would descend into an echo chamber.
Did I miss the headline article supporting LEAVE in amongst the veritable blizzard out REMAIN articles ? I suspect the likelihood of seeing one is about the same as one on the subject of "LDs losing here", we know why, and its understandable, but lets not suggest the coverage is balanced.
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
No one on here is objective wrt the EU. Leavers arguments are universally "emotive" , which is understandable, and, when people stray into calling someone foolish, also a touch "patronising".
Ah, and there we have it.
I rest my case.
You clearly need the rest. I for one welcome Mr Meeks postings. Without him PB would descend into an echo chamber.
I'm fine, thank you.
I welcome him posting too, and don't even mind him arguing passionately for Remain. It's the tin-ear, repetitiveness and rudeness that worry me - it's very out of character.
Could be worse, could be AV. FWIW when you have the braying PB mob on your back it's stressful. People who post articles deserve to be cut slack. He's no more tin earred, rude or repetitive than the rest of us.
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
No one on here is objective wrt the EU. Leavers arguments are universally "emotive" , which is understandable, and, when people stray into calling someone foolish, also a touch "patronising".
Ah, and there we have it.
I rest my case.
You clearly need the rest. I for one welcome Mr Meeks postings. Without him PB would descend into an echo chamber.
Did I miss the headline article supporting LEAVE in amongst the veritable blizzard out REMAIN articles ? I suspect the likelihood of seeing one is about the same as one on the subject of "LDs losing here", we know why, and its understandable, but lets not suggest the coverage is balanced.
Write one. If it's any good I expect Mike will post it.
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
You mean unlike those bastions of reasonable rationality for 'leave' who post on here like blackburn and seanT.
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
No one on here is objective wrt the EU. Leavers arguments are universally "emotive" , which is understandable, and, when people stray into calling someone foolish, also a touch "patronising".
Ah, and there we have it.
I rest my case.
You clearly need the rest. I for one welcome Mr Meeks postings. Without him PB would descend into an echo chamber.
I'm fine, thank you.
I welcome him posting too, and don't even mind him arguing passionately for Remain. It's the tin-ear, repetitiveness and rudeness that worry me - it's very out of character.
Could be worse, could be AV. FWIW when you have the braying PB mob on your back it's stressful. People who post articles deserve to be cut slack. He's no more tin earred, rude or repetitive than the rest of us.
I disagree, and it's because I feel I know Alastair quite well and have a healthy respect for him - we both mantained blogs and wrote articles before the election - that I'm concerned.
I don't judge him by the standards of the worst posters on here, but by the best.
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
No one on here is objective wrt the EU. Leavers arguments are universally "emotive" , which is understandable, and, when people stray into calling someone foolish, also a touch "patronising".
Well of course nobody is objective. It is literally impossible to be objective when the arguments for and against membership are all judgement calls; when it is impossible to put accurate figures on soft power, or on future - unknown - trade rules; when you are trying to balance a set of positives against negatives, many of which have to be felt rather than measured. It is a subjective process.
If it could all be done objectively, we wouldn't be needing a referendum.
To take one example we now have approximately 1m Poles living in the UK and Polish speciality shops are commonplace in our towns and cities. As a middle class professional this has mainly been good news for me as the Poles in the main are hardworking, law abiding, low profile people who try hard to assimilate and provide good services. Of course if I had found building work, casual work or a trade a lot harder to come by in the last decade I may have a different view.
There was a well established Polish community in Fife as well but it has been completely dwarfed by recent movements. Polish speciality shops in Dundee have only sprung up in the last 10 years to meet the new demand. As I say I have no problem with them whatsoever but it is not my lunch they are eating.
Sorry MrD never meant to infer you did.
We also have a Polish shop and public signs in the local park are in Polish as well. The local surgery has an electronic booking system you have to self check in when you arrive for the appointment (very good it is too) . I do note that you can now select your language of choice on the screen by selecting one of the two flags shown , the Union Jack or the Polish flag.
My father was in the RAF and he had the greatest regard for Polish airmen. I remember as a child being taken to the Polish restaurant in South Ken to meet some of his RAF buddies.
Poles are an asset to this country. This is not the immigration that worries me. And of all the issues about the EU which worry me immigration is not one of them. The freedom of movement is on the whole a good thing, though like all good things it has costs and I freely admit that those costs are not borne by me or those as fortunate as me. Control of the external borders is more of a worry and the lack of thought behind decisions by Merkel etc. The focus on benefits for migrants has been a distraction from what I think are more important and more long-term concerns e.g. the proper balance of power between the Eurozone and the non-Eurozone states.
I simply see no good reason why - if we are not in the Eurozone - we should be subject to the same rules as the states that are. That is the whole point of the opt out. And yet on the radio this morning it was being said that the French are insistent that we must be subject to the same rules. That seems to me to be a way of trying to defeat the whole purpose of the opt out and if Cameron gives way on this it is a big concern - for me anyway.
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
No one on here is objective wrt the EU. Leavers arguments are universally "emotive" , which is understandable, and, when people stray into calling someone foolish, also a touch "patronising".
Ah, and there we have it.
I rest my case.
You clearly need the rest. I for one welcome Mr Meeks postings. Without him PB would descend into an echo chamber.
I'm fine, thank you.
I welcome him posting too, and don't even mind him arguing passionately for Remain. It's the tin-ear, repetitiveness and rudeness that worry me - it's very out of character.
Republican Donald Trump will not be president because it's a "serious job", President Barack Obama has said. "I continue to believe that Mr Trump will not be president. And the reason is because I have a lot of faith in the American people," said Mr Obama
He really is every bit as pretentious, shallow and stubborn as he appears. I thought it would be hard for the US to elect an even worse President than George W but with Obama they achieved it. Let us hope he doesn't manage to engineer the 3rd World War with Russia his administration has so eagerly sought, at Europe's cost. Only a few months to go now till he goes.
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
No one on here is objective wrt the EU. Leavers arguments are universally "emotive" , which is understandable, and, when people stray into calling someone foolish, also a touch "patronising".
Ah, and there we have it.
I rest my case.
You clearly need the rest. I for one welcome Mr Meeks postings. Without him PB would descend into an echo chamber.
I'm fine, thank you.
I welcome him posting too, and don't even mind him arguing passionately for Remain. It's the tin-ear, repetitiveness and rudeness that worry me - it's very out of character.
Oh, the irony - and I'm not even a Meeks fan.
No, but you are scared about your pension a Remainer, and your enemy's enemy is often your friend.
One thing strikes me as strange from the header article. It argues, the public, by and large, got what it exected: NOWT MUCH. Presumably, one can safely extrapolate that David Cameron got the public (including the newspapers) response he expected .... No?
I apologise if I misquoted you. You are keen on a political union, I believe, and that's fine. You are upfront about that. You probably read the small print better than most. My gripe is that whenever the subject of political union came up, it was dismissed as being a silly conspiracy theory, and let's be honest, Tony Benn was an easy caricature. That was dishonest.
You may have understood the finer points better than most, but if political union had been discussed, and it should have been, the result may have been different.
No problem, and thanks. I agree with you, with the reservation that it would have been a legitimate response in 1975 to say "Yes, but Britain can veto any such moves". We could have, but we didn't. My view for what it's worth is that most people in power quite like the gradual move towards political union, in much the same way as a governor in Massachusetts might have have liked the idea of having a shot at leading the whole continent, and they have been mainly constrained by the feeling that public opinion wouldn't be keen, so they've made a show about being gradually dragged towards it. But neither Conservative nor Labour leaders have effectively refused - not Lady Thatcher either.
The other point to make is that we don't actually have political union with democratic accountability to a very large extent - it is mostly arranged to suit national leaders sorting stuff out with the Commission. That's why I think the decisive change to genuine political union would come with electing the Commission President directly. He would then be de facto "leader of Europe" - which is why national leaders are suddenly not so keen. But that would create a European political demos to an extent that only marginally exists today - once we were debating whether we'd rather be led by a British leader with a different political view or a foreigner with attractive views (say a Tory choosing between Corbyn and Tusk), it would be a very different Europe, and a more interesting one.
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
No one on here is objective wrt the EU. Leavers arguments are universally "emotive" , which is understandable, and, when people stray into calling someone foolish, also a touch "patronising".
Ah, and there we have it.
I rest my case.
You clearly need the rest. I for one welcome Mr Meeks postings. Without him PB would descend into an echo chamber.
I'm fine, thank you.
I welcome him posting too, and don't even mind him arguing passionately for Remain. It's the tin-ear, repetitiveness and rudeness that worry me - it's very out of character.
Oh, the irony - and I'm not even a Meeks fan.
No, there is no irony.
I am open to respected well-argued positions: I commended DavidL's case for Remain and have explored Richard Nabavi's views respectively too.
I confess I sometimes blow a fuse, but who doesn't?
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
No one on here is objective wrt the EU. Leavers arguments are universally "emotive" , which is understandable, and, when people stray into calling someone foolish, also a touch "patronising".
Ah, and there we have it.
I rest my case.
You clearly need the rest. I for one welcome Mr Meeks postings. Without him PB would descend into an echo chamber.
I'm fine, thank you.
I welcome him posting too, and don't even mind him arguing passionately for Remain. It's the tin-ear, repetitiveness and rudeness that worry me - it's very out of character.
Oh, the irony - and I'm not even a Meeks fan.
No, but you are scared about your pension a Remainer, and your enemy's enemy is often your friend.
Not scared about my pension at all - don't even need it to live on. But I will vote on self-interest like most. Look at the screams on here about a perfectly reasonable change to pension tax relief. Besides why make it so personal - criticize his argument by all means.
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
No one on here is objective wrt the EU. Leavers arguments are universally "emotive" , which is understandable, and, when people stray into calling someone foolish, also a touch "patronising".
Ah, and there we have it.
I rest my case.
You clearly need the rest. I for one welcome Mr Meeks postings. Without him PB would descend into an echo chamber.
I'm fine, thank you.
I welcome him posting too, and don't even mind him arguing passionately for Remain. It's the tin-ear, repetitiveness and rudeness that worry me - it's very out of character.
Oh, the irony - and I'm not even a Meeks fan.
No, there is no irony.
I am open to respected well-argued positions: I commended DavidL's case for Remain and have explored Richard Nabavi's views respectively too.
I confess I sometimes blow a fuse, but who doesn't?
You don't think the leave arguments are repetitive then? I'm still waiting for the explanation of how the post-Brexit plan [sic] will work.
'My view for what it's worth is that most people in power quite like the gradual move towards political union, in much the same way as a governor in Massachusetts might have have liked the idea of having a shot at leading the whole continent, and they have been mainly constrained by the feeling that public opinion wouldn't be keen, so they've made a show about being gradually dragged towards it. But neither Conservative nor Labour leaders have effectively refused'
Nick is spot on here. The EU is a project for the political elites and appeals hugely to their ambition and vanity.
That is exactly why we can't allow them to define the UK's relationship with the EU and why this referendum is so important - it is a chance for the voters to get control back over the destiny of the country.
Just looking at these new employment figures, which seem to encouraging, I notice that there are nearly 9 million people of working age who are classed as economically inactive. That is an awful lot of people. Who, I wonder, are they and from where do they draw their income?
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
You mean unlike those bastions of reasonable rationality for 'leave' who post on here like blackburn and seanT.
Both of whom I have criticised on occassion.
What really grates me goat is when either side uses the unreasonableness of one or two on the other side to tar their whole argument.
Yes, yes.. we all do it a little bit. I've posted sarcastic remarks about ultra-europhiles and eurocrats, and find it hard to see previously Tory eurosceptic MPs now declaring for Remain as anything but sell-outs, but I am at least aware of that and do try to explore other people's points of view faithfully.
You will never, for instance, hear me say I will vote in opposition to specific people on the other side, or even the types of people.
I may point out the impact of the politics of that - like Emma Thompson winning votes for Leave through her crass comments - but that's as far as it will go.
I'd have more respect for your point if you balanced up your observation with reasonable Leave posters like Robert Smithson, DavidL, Charles, Sean Fear and Cyclefree.
Just looking at these new employment figures, which seem to encouraging, I notice that there are nearly 9 million people of working age who are classed as economically inactive. That is an awful lot of people. Who, I wonder, are they and from where do they draw their income?
I should guess a large number like me - retired early with public sector pension. Probably a slowly declining group since the arrangements have changed but there are many I know who could still retire comfortably at 55. I suspect another large group would be among the disabled sector and there must be a fair number where one partner works while the other looks after the family.
I may point out the impact of the politics of that - like Emma Thompson winning votes for Leave through her crass comments - but that's as far as it will go.
but Emmas's dad and the french made "The Magic Roundabout" possible. and Hurrah for Concorde
Just looking at these new employment figures, which seem to encouraging, I notice that there are nearly 9 million people of working age who are classed as economically inactive. That is an awful lot of people. Who, I wonder, are they and from where do they draw their income?
Just looking at these new employment figures, which seem to encouraging, I notice that there are nearly 9 million people of working age who are classed as economically inactive. That is an awful lot of people. Who, I wonder, are they and from where do they draw their income?
I was talking to a couple last night - both doctors. They are off to work on the Gold Coast at the end of the month. Once they decided to go for it (based on Hunt's new contract), it took the pair of them less than two weeks to get jobs in Oz.
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
No one on here is objective wrt the EU. Leavers arguments are universally "emotive" , which is understandable, and, when people stray into calling someone foolish, also a touch "patronising".
Ah, and there we have it.
I rest my case.
You clearly need the rest. I for one welcome Mr Meeks postings. Without him PB would descend into an echo chamber.
I'm fine, thank you.
I welcome him posting too, and don't even mind him arguing passionately for Remain. It's the tin-ear, repetitiveness and rudeness that worry me - it's very out of character.
Oh, the irony - and I'm not even a Meeks fan.
No, there is no irony.
I am open to respected well-argued positions: I commended DavidL's case for Remain and have explored Richard Nabavi's views respectively too.
I confess I sometimes blow a fuse, but who doesn't?
You don't think the leave arguments are repetitive then? I'm still waiting for the explanation of how the post-Brexit plan [sic] will work.
What will happen if the UK leaves is very simple. We once again become a self-governing nation state with Parliament sovereign. The elected government will make our laws and if the population don't like those laws then they will vote in a different government.
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
You mean unlike those bastions of reasonable rationality for 'leave' who post on here like blackburn and seanT.
Both of whom I have criticised on occassion.
What really grates me goat is when either side uses the unreasonableness of one or two on the other side to tar their whole argument.
Yes, yes.. we all do it a little bit. I've posted sarcastic remarks about ultra-europhiles and eurocrats, and find it hard to see previously Tory eurosceptic MPs now declaring for Remain as anything but sell-outs, but I am at least aware of that and do try to explore other people's points of view faithfully.
You will never, for instance, hear me say I will vote in opposition to specific people on the other side, or even the types of people.
I may point out the impact of the politics of that - like Emma Thompson winning votes for Leave through her crass comments - but that's as far as it will go.
I'd have more respect for your point if you balanced up your observation with reasonable Leave posters like Robert Smithson, DavidL, Charles, Sean Fear and Cyclefree.
I take your last point with some exceptions and I fully agree about Emma Thompson's comments although I seriously doubt that luvvies persuade anyone of anything.
Not scared about my pension at all - don't even need it to live on. But I will vote on self-interest like most. Look at the screams on here about a perfectly reasonable change to pension tax relief. Besides why make it so personal - criticize his argument by all means.
Because as Mr CR says, we all blow a fuse from time to time, especially when we see essentially the same argument made day after day in a slightly different way. None of these arguments will admit the slightest fault in the works of the EU and attempt to hand wave away anything that isn't going the Remain votes way. DavidL's posting the other day was both balanced and interesting, he is for the REMAIN side but isn't blind to the idiocies that the EU regularly perpetrates.
A few on here wouldn't criticise Cameron if we was running down Whitehall in tutu singing "Delilah", and since Cameron is trying to sell EU, they wont hear anything else no matter how many contortions there are to the reply. Others are so filled with loathing for the kippers and all their works they can't bring themselves to criticize even in passing, anything the kippers approve of, forgetting that the Kippers may be for Christmas, but the EU is for life.
Personally I can see the merits in the idea of the EU, but the implementation is now, and will increasingly be a disaster for this country if we remain welded to it, as RCS1K has mentioned a number of times. The UK and continental Europe are different peoples heading in different directions, and hammering on our square pen, to attempt to make it fit their round hole is going to damage my country. But what really gets my goat, is the small mindedness, and the shear lack of ambition that says the UK will never be great again, and shouldn't try, we should all group together like frightened rodents, manage our decline as best we can, and hope the boogie-monster doesn't come and get us - ugh.
I may point out the impact of the politics of that - like Emma Thompson winning votes for Leave through her crass comments - but that's as far as it will go.
but Emmas's dad and the french made "The Magic Roundabout" possible. and Hurrah for Concorde
One of the most striking images in the pilot of The Man In The High Castle is of a Concorde with a huge swastika on the tail.....
For September 2015, 17.1% of people in employment worked in the public sector (the lowest proportion since comparable records began in 1999) and the remaining 82.9% worked in the private sector.
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
No one on here is objective wrt the EU. Leavers arguments are universally "emotive" , which is understandable, and, when people stray into calling someone foolish, also a touch "patronising".
Ah, and there we have it.
I rest my case.
You clearly need the rest. I for one welcome Mr Meeks postings. Without him PB would descend into an echo chamber.
I'm fine, thank you.
I welcome him posting too, and don't even mind him arguing passionately for Remain. It's the tin-ear, repetitiveness and rudeness that worry me - it's very out of character.
Oh, the irony - and I'm not even a Meeks fan.
No, there is no irony.
I am open to respected well-argued positions: I commended DavidL's case for Remain and have explored Richard Nabavi's views respectively too.
I confess I sometimes blow a fuse, but who doesn't?
You don't think the leave arguments are repetitive then? I'm still waiting for the explanation of how the post-Brexit plan [sic] will work.
I posted a link to a 420 page document on what Brexit could look like the other day. If you choose to ignore it that is up to you.
Just looking at these new employment figures, which seem to encouraging, I notice that there are nearly 9 million people of working age who are classed as economically inactive. That is an awful lot of people. Who, I wonder, are they and from where do they draw their income?
Major categories
2.27m Students 2.23m Looking after home and/or family 2.06m Long Term Sick 1.16m Retired
For September 2015, 17.1% of people in employment worked in the public sector (the lowest proportion since comparable records began in 1999) and the remaining 82.9% worked in the private sector.
For September 2015, 17.1% of people in employment worked in the public sector (the lowest proportion since comparable records began in 1999) and the remaining 82.9% worked in the private sector.
When looking at opinion polls, it's worth noting how many identify identify as public sector workers. Ipsos regularly obtain samples with over 40% in public sector employment. Very odd.
For September 2015, 17.1% of people in employment worked in the public sector (the lowest proportion since comparable records began in 1999) and the remaining 82.9% worked in the private sector.
When looking at opinion polls, it's worth noting how many identify identify as public sector workers. Ipsos regularly obtain samples with over 40% in public sector employment. Very odd.
For September 2015, 17.1% of people in employment worked in the public sector (the lowest proportion since comparable records began in 1999) and the remaining 82.9% worked in the private sector.
When looking at opinion polls, it's worth noting how many identify identify as public sector workers. Ipsos regularly obtain samples with over 40% in public sector employment. Very odd.
I guess lots of people that work in private companies on long term contracts to government bodies go native in their views of who they work for. Thousands of people work for local government, the NHS, Defense etc etc side by side with true public sector workers, but still collect their pay check at the end of the day from a private company. Do the employees of companies like QinetiQ for example feel like they are in the private sector, especially as many of them start off working as public sector employees for DERA.
Oliver Cooper Unemployment has fallen to another record low in Hampstead Town, with just 26 residents out of work: one FIFTH of the level it was in 2010!
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
Two points:
1) The EU referendum is the big political betting story in the UK for the year ahead.
2) Every thread at present, including every thread about the other big political betting story of the moment, the US presidential election, gets derailed onto consideration about minutiae of the EU referendum. This is obviously what gets a large number of posters up in the morning.
The idea that I'm not going to express my views on the referendum in thread headers is ridiculous. It would be a complete dereliction of duty given what's going on at present.
I do not use thread headers as a vehicle to broadcast my personal opinions of the pros and cons of the referendum choice. That would be an abuse of position, bearing in mind I'm just some guy off of the internet. What I try to do is identify polling points for consideration, in just the same way as I try to do on other threads that I write about actual elections. On this thread, I've identified two.
People are welcome to disagree with those points if they so wish. The response of the true beLeavers to this thread has by and large been "but that can't possibly be right" without any further analysis. So be it: that's their choice. However, the extreme annoyance that some people express when I have the temerity to put forward points that challenge the consensus on the site says an awful lot more about them than it does about me.
@SeanT - yes, I've already priced in you going all gaylord ponceyboots at the 11th hour and voting Remain.
But, for as long as it lasts, right now you qualify as a Leave poster.
Hah. Fair enuff.
I really AM undecided. It's not like I'm trying to convince myself I'm neutral - but subconsciously know how I'll vote. I have no idea. Right now I'm about 55% LEAVE. But that's before breakfast.
I thought you said the other day you were 80% Leave?
You're honest, I'll give you that. It doesn't always make you popular, but it usually earns you respect.
Both Alastair's points seem reasonable (I only say seem because I have not looked at the polling in the detail he has). In fact both points are encouraging for me.
The first because it seems to me that, as pointed out below, even if people did expect Cameron to bring back a poor deal, the fact that the polls appear to have shifted markedly over the last couple of weeks would indicate to me that there was a disconnect between people's general expectations and their reaction to the specific failure that Cameron has achieved. Put simply, it is one thing to expect your politicians to be crap in a general fashion but quote another to have that rammed home quite so forcefully as Cameron has done.
The second is encouraging because I have never been comfortable with the linkage of immigration and the EU, however true it may or may not be, it has hobbled the LEAVE campaign badly by undermining the one certain route they could propose - EFTA membership - since this would not limit EU migration. As such I am far more comfortable with the debate being on the grounds of economics, good governance and sovereignty rather than migration.
This scheme may be a good idea, as far as it goes, but given roughly a third of domestic violence is conducted by women against men, there's a gaping flaw with a strategy that only attacks men hitting women [NB gay couples obviously have domestic abuse too]: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35591041
Meanwhile on R4 this morning there was some ghastly statist woman pondering why on earth anyone would want to buy a large cup of coffee and saying they should be banned.
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
Two points:
1) The EU referendum is the big political betting story in the UK for the year ahead.
2) Every thread at present, including every thread about the other big political betting story of the moment, the US presidential election, gets derailed onto consideration about minutiae of the EU referendum. This is obviously what gets a large number of posters up in the morning.
The idea that I'm not going to express my views on the referendum in thread headers is ridiculous. It would be a complete dereliction of duty given what's going on at present.
I do not use thread headers as a vehicle to broadcast my personal opinions of the pros and cons of the referendum choice. That would be an abuse of position, bearing in mind I'm just some guy off of the internet. What I try to do is identify polling points for consideration, in just the same way as I try to do on other threads that I write about actual elections. On this thread, I've identified two.
People are welcome to disagree with those points if they so wish. The response of the true beLeavers to this thread has by and large been "but that can't possibly be right" without any further analysis. So be it: that's their choice. However, the extreme annoyance that some people express when I have the temerity to put forward points that challenge the consensus on the site says an awful lot more about them than it does about me.
This scheme may be a good idea, as far as it goes, but given roughly a third of domestic violence is conducted by women against men, there's a gaping flaw with a strategy that only attacks men hitting women [NB gay couples obviously have domestic abuse too]: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35591041
Miss Plato, not dissimilar to the third of victims in Rotherham being boys hardly ever getting mentioned. It's depressing that such omissions are common.
OT - Perhaps now would be a good time to reintroduce last night’s discussion on cake.
It stimulates the part of the brain called Shatner's Bassoon. And that's the bit of the brain that deals with time perception. So, a second feels like a month.
These referendum threads are laced with dangerous levels of cake.
Things may have changed, but generally speaking celebrity advertising doesn't do anything extra for a client. It's a lot more expensive and gets more attention. But doesn't shift more product.
Re Myth 1. If people expected a bad deal, you might have expected it to be " priced in" to the polling. Clearly it wasn't, as public opinion has shifted to Leave, in the aftermath.
Quite! However, one thing is undoubtedly true: Alastair Meeks (on this very unimportant! matter) has not shifted.
He's making a bit of a fool of himself IMHO, and just keeps digging.
Nah he just disagrees with you.
It's not just that, Richard Nabavi and David Herdson disagree with me and they have not, it's his repeated dismissiveness of the arguments of Leavers, often using emotive or patronising language, with the same tired old lines and his increasingly hysterical and touchy posts on here when he posts on the issue.
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
You mean unlike those bastions of reasonable rationality for 'leave' who post on here like blackburn and seanT.
Both of whom I have criticised on occassion.
What really grates me goat is when either side uses the unreasonableness of one or two on the other side to tar their whole argument.
Yes, yes.. we all do it a little bit. I've posted sarcastic remarks about ultra-europhiles and eurocrats, and find it hard to see previously Tory eurosceptic MPs now declaring for Remain as anything but sell-outs, but I am at least aware of that and do try to explore other people's points of view faithfully.
You will never, for instance, hear me say I will vote in opposition to specific people on the other side, or even the types of people.
I may point out the impact of the politics of that - like Emma Thompson winning votes for Leave through her crass comments - but that's as far as it will go.
I'd have more respect for your point if you balanced up your observation with reasonable Leave posters like Robert Smithson, DavidL, Charles, Sean Fear and Cyclefree.
I take your last point with some exceptions and I fully agree about Emma Thompson's comments although I seriously doubt that luvvies persuade anyone of anything.
There are plenty of plans. I can think of at least 5 others ranging from EFTA + EEA through to a bespoke agreement with the EU.
This is just another classic example of the Europhiles continually asking the same inane and idiotic questions and then ignoring the answers.
You are certainly not alone in having engaged and tried to answer their points but like everyone else who tackles them head on you are ignored and then a few days later exact the same question is asked again as if it is some stunning new revelation.
Basically the Europhiles are bereft of any real arguments to support their position and so rely upon smears, lies and general wilfull ignorance to try to make their case.
There are plenty of plans. I can think of at least 5 others ranging from EFTA + EEA through to a bespoke agreement with the EU.
Er, yes, but that's the problem. Your wife wants to move to the Orkneys, and you're not too sure. She says, "Look, there are 5 different things we could do when we get there! Let's set out and we can decide when we've arrived which one we do." Does this fill you with greater confidence than if she had a particular idea in mind?
Actually, it's worse. It's as if she said, "I know these great guys, they're called Fox and Farage and Galloway. They've got ideas for what we can do. Once we get there, some of them will decide."
There are plenty of plans. I can think of at least 5 others ranging from EFTA + EEA through to a bespoke agreement with the EU.
Er, yes, but that's the problem. Your wife wants to move to the Orkneys, and you're not too sure. She says, "Look, there are 5 different things we could do when we get there! Let's set out and we can decide when we've arrived which one we do." Does this fill you with greater confidence than if she had a particular idea in mind?
Two people look after their own children and do the housework, they are economically inactive. Two people look after each other's children and do each other's housework, they magically become economically active.
There are plenty of plans. I can think of at least 5 others ranging from EFTA + EEA through to a bespoke agreement with the EU.
Actually, it's worse. It's as if she said, "I know these great guys, they're called Fox and Farage and Galloway. They've got ideas for what we can do. Once we get there, some of them will decide."
There are plenty of plans. I can think of at least 5 others ranging from EFTA + EEA through to a bespoke agreement with the EU.
Thank you - I'm not on here full-time. Unless you speak with some semblance of authority on behalf of a campaign it's all a bit speculative don't you think? My point remains that there is no definitive plan being put to the public by any of the 3/4 leave campaigns. There are lots like myself who need to know the implications - otherwise we opt for the status quo.
There are plenty of plans. I can think of at least 5 others ranging from EFTA + EEA through to a bespoke agreement with the EU.
Er, yes, but that's the problem. Your wife wants to move to the Orkneys, and you're not too sure. She says, "Look, there are 5 different things we could do when we get there! Let's set out and we can decide when we've arrived which one we do." Does this fill you with greater confidence than if she had a particular idea in mind?
Actually, it's worse. It's as if she said, "I know these great guys, they're called Fox and Farage and Galloway. They've got ideas for what we can do. Once we get there, some of them will decide."
To take your analogy further: It's as if, meanwhile, you have neglected to mention to your wife about the plans to build an 8-lane motorway at the end of the garden if you don't move to Orkney. You are just hoping to stay right where you are and maybe, if you cross your fingers, the motorway will never actually materialize, even though the bulldozers are gathering on the horizon.
Comments
But what are your legitimate concerns? Specifically? I am far from an EU expert but here are mine. Take financial services. OK we have banking union exemption, but take MiFID. Are we better off at the table negotiating with other Member States (albeit badly as @Cyclefree believes), or are we better waiting for the finished document, with no input from the UK, to be sent to us which we must then follow?
What specific concerns do you have about which areas where we are, cf the MiFID example, unambiguously better off outside the EU?
On the matter of the EU, his objectivity is totally compromised.
Cam didn't need to promise a new deal, come back with nothing (albeit it is codified, for better or worse), and just get everyone in a tizzy about Romanian plumbers' daughters' benefits.
But I suppose this should also be seen in the context of a popular press and opposition parties who tried to skewer Cam for not signing the fiscal compact, which promised that we would send our spending plans to the EU for approval FFS.
The site needs to be renamed 'Meeks against the world'.
I rest my case.
Your fatuous attempt to dismiss the second myth is slightly at odd with the facts much as it might sound tempting for a Europhile to believe it. Did you perchance glance at the ITV EU Survey a couple of days ago:
Thinking about the referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, which three of the following will be the most important to you in deciding which way to vote?
Control over the number of EU migrants entering Britain - 53%
Control over Britain's laws - 43%
The economy - 38%
Good heavens, and there it is, immigration at the top of the list with over half the sample.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teaspoon
I apologise if I misquoted you. You are keen on a political union, I believe, and that's fine. You are upfront about that. You probably read the small print better than most. My gripe is that whenever the subject of political union came up, it was dismissed as being a silly conspiracy theory, and let's be honest, Tony Benn was an easy caricature. That was dishonest.
You may have understood the finer points better than most, but if political union had been discussed, and it should have been, the result may have been different.
#Employment rate 74.1% for Oct-Dec 2015, highest since records began in 1971 https://t.co/7wActUvIpC https://t.co/0jykKQbFEv
#Breaking The number of people on the claimant count last month fell by 14,800 to 760,200 - @ONS
#Breaking Average earnings increased by 1.9% in the year to December, 0.2% down on the previous month
UK youth unemployment rate fell to 13.6% in Q4, lowest since Q3 2005
Clearly there has been a shift to Leave since the beginning of the month so if the numbers haven't changed between those who thought Cameron would get a good deal and those who thought Cameron has achieved a good deal, then something else must be going on. Is it that the Don't Knows have broken towards Leave, even though there are now more of them (allowing for comparing between different polling companies); is it that the Bad Dealers have moved towards Leave in the light of publication, when before they were more hesitant; is it that people don't feel the negotiation is actually all that relevant and the faffing about is pushing people towards Leave; or something else again?
But it's difficult not to take issue with Alistair on his first point when all three polls since publication have shown a sizable swing to Leave compared with the previous findings of their respective series.
100g is a more sensible measure than "25 teaspoons" (or about 4 ounces, if you prefer)
For Oct-Dec 2015 there were 31.42 million people in work and 1.69 million unemployed https://t.co/n8ZpP9U4Nx https://t.co/IHlpgSikOs
Nice chart
I welcome him posting too, and don't even mind him arguing passionately for Remain. It's the tin-ear, repetitiveness and rudeness that worry me - it's very out of character.
He called the migrant crisis hopelessly wrong and in true PB style is doubling down rather than admit it
I don't judge him by the standards of the worst posters on here, but by the best.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/12160417/UK-business-gas-supplies-could-be-diverted-to-households-in-Europe-under-EU-crisis-plan.html
https://ycharts.com/indicators/eurozone_youth_unemployment_rate
If it could all be done objectively, we wouldn't be needing a referendum.
Poles are an asset to this country. This is not the immigration that worries me. And of all the issues about the EU which worry me immigration is not one of them. The freedom of movement is on the whole a good thing, though like all good things it has costs and I freely admit that those costs are not borne by me or those as fortunate as me. Control of the external borders is more of a worry and the lack of thought behind decisions by Merkel etc. The focus on benefits for migrants has been a distraction from what I think are more important and more long-term concerns e.g. the proper balance of power between the Eurozone and the non-Eurozone states.
I simply see no good reason why - if we are not in the Eurozone - we should be subject to the same rules as the states that are. That is the whole point of the opt out. And yet on the radio this morning it was being said that the French are insistent that we must be subject to the same rules. That seems to me to be a way of trying to defeat the whole purpose of the opt out and if Cameron gives way on this it is a big concern - for me anyway.
Edit - Damn: MarqueeMark got there first!
1. I must admit to be surprised by.
On 2 I think it comes down to the type of immigration.
The other point to make is that we don't actually have political union with democratic accountability to a very large extent - it is mostly arranged to suit national leaders sorting stuff out with the Commission. That's why I think the decisive change to genuine political union would come with electing the Commission President directly. He would then be de facto "leader of Europe" - which is why national leaders are suddenly not so keen. But that would create a European political demos to an extent that only marginally exists today - once we were debating whether we'd rather be led by a British leader with a different political view or a foreigner with attractive views (say a Tory choosing between Corbyn and Tusk), it would be a very different Europe, and a more interesting one.
But I'm aware it's a minority view!
I am open to respected well-argued positions: I commended DavidL's case for Remain and have explored Richard Nabavi's views respectively too.
I confess I sometimes blow a fuse, but who doesn't?
There were 776,000 job vacancies for the 3 months to January 2016. This was the highest since comparable records began in 2001
Death
Family
Disease
Environment
Housing
See! No one is worried about the bomb
Latest from me: what might be scale of #Labour's 2020 defeat? Note: Lab's nos. have got worse since I wrote this. https://t.co/JBXZC5dwYV …
Nick is spot on here. The EU is a project for the political elites and appeals hugely to their ambition and vanity.
That is exactly why we can't allow them to define the UK's relationship with the EU and why this referendum is so important - it is a chance for the voters to get control back over the destiny of the country.
What really grates me goat is when either side uses the unreasonableness of one or two on the other side to tar their whole argument.
Yes, yes.. we all do it a little bit. I've posted sarcastic remarks about ultra-europhiles and eurocrats, and find it hard to see previously Tory eurosceptic MPs now declaring for Remain as anything but sell-outs, but I am at least aware of that and do try to explore other people's points of view faithfully.
You will never, for instance, hear me say I will vote in opposition to specific people on the other side, or even the types of people.
I may point out the impact of the politics of that - like Emma Thompson winning votes for Leave through her crass comments - but that's as far as it will go.
I'd have more respect for your point if you balanced up your observation with reasonable Leave posters like Robert Smithson, DavidL, Charles, Sean Fear and Cyclefree.
My issue is with Remainders who choose to patronise Leavers. Insulting those who could be persuadable is stupid politics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_employment_rate it is tricky to go much over 75% in all honesty.
I was talking to a couple last night - both doctors. They are off to work on the Gold Coast at the end of the month. Once they decided to go for it (based on Hunt's new contract), it took the pair of them less than two weeks to get jobs in Oz.
I blame the Tory government.
A few on here wouldn't criticise Cameron if we was running down Whitehall in tutu singing "Delilah", and since Cameron is trying to sell EU, they wont hear anything else no matter how many contortions there are to the reply. Others are so filled with loathing for the kippers and all their works they can't bring themselves to criticize even in passing, anything the kippers approve of, forgetting that the Kippers may be for Christmas, but the EU is for life.
Personally I can see the merits in the idea of the EU, but the implementation is now, and will increasingly be a disaster for this country if we remain welded to it, as RCS1K has mentioned a number of times. The UK and continental Europe are different peoples heading in different directions, and hammering on our square pen, to attempt to make it fit their round hole is going to damage my country. But what really gets my goat, is the small mindedness, and the shear lack of ambition that says the UK will never be great again, and shouldn't try, we should all group together like frightened rodents, manage our decline as best we can, and hope the boogie-monster doesn't come and get us - ugh.
National Archives
#DCDC16 call for papers is now open! Collections, connections, collaborations: from potential to impact. https://t.co/EgTwz0Ok6N
1.69m unemployed people, down 60k on the quarter and down 172k on the year
https://t.co/7xD0sk6oiW
These are still the Wrong Sort Of Jobs
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/meet-the-south-carolina-republicans-who-are-horrified-by-the-trump-coronation/2016/02/16/242a7718-d3fd-11e5-b195-2e29a4e13425_story.html
http://eureferendum.com/Flexcit.aspx
There are plenty of plans. I can think of at least 5 others ranging from EFTA + EEA through to a bespoke agreement with the EU.
2.27m Students
2.23m Looking after home and/or family
2.06m Long Term Sick
1.16m Retired
But, for as long as it lasts, right now you qualify as a Leave poster.
Crikey, there's something really weird there.
8 MPs have the surname Davies, two more are Davis and David. Of those 10, 2 have the first name David. Thesis: David Davies will never lose.
Unemployment has fallen to another record low in Hampstead Town, with just 26 residents out of work: one FIFTH of the level it was in 2010!
There are some great stats about.
1) The EU referendum is the big political betting story in the UK for the year ahead.
2) Every thread at present, including every thread about the other big political betting story of the moment, the US presidential election, gets derailed onto consideration about minutiae of the EU referendum. This is obviously what gets a large number of posters up in the morning.
The idea that I'm not going to express my views on the referendum in thread headers is ridiculous. It would be a complete dereliction of duty given what's going on at present.
I do not use thread headers as a vehicle to broadcast my personal opinions of the pros and cons of the referendum choice. That would be an abuse of position, bearing in mind I'm just some guy off of the internet. What I try to do is identify polling points for consideration, in just the same way as I try to do on other threads that I write about actual elections. On this thread, I've identified two.
People are welcome to disagree with those points if they so wish. The response of the true beLeavers to this thread has by and large been "but that can't possibly be right" without any further analysis. So be it: that's their choice. However, the extreme annoyance that some people express when I have the temerity to put forward points that challenge the consensus on the site says an awful lot more about them than it does about me.
You're honest, I'll give you that. It doesn't always make you popular, but it usually earns you respect.
The first because it seems to me that, as pointed out below, even if people did expect Cameron to bring back a poor deal, the fact that the polls appear to have shifted markedly over the last couple of weeks would indicate to me that there was a disconnect between people's general expectations and their reaction to the specific failure that Cameron has achieved. Put simply, it is one thing to expect your politicians to be crap in a general fashion but quote another to have that rammed home quite so forcefully as Cameron has done.
The second is encouraging because I have never been comfortable with the linkage of immigration and the EU, however true it may or may not be, it has hobbled the LEAVE campaign badly by undermining the one certain route they could propose - EFTA membership - since this would not limit EU migration. As such I am far more comfortable with the debate being on the grounds of economics, good governance and sovereignty rather than migration.
This scheme may be a good idea, as far as it goes, but given roughly a third of domestic violence is conducted by women against men, there's a gaping flaw with a strategy that only attacks men hitting women [NB gay couples obviously have domestic abuse too]:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35591041
The report I linked to the other day re crime stats with approx 500k males experiencing domestic abuse isn't acknowledged much anywhere.
I'd also argue more women inflict psychological abuse than physical.
(Ducks!)
These referendum threads are laced with dangerous levels of cake.
You are certainly not alone in having engaged and tried to answer their points but like everyone else who tackles them head on you are ignored and then a few days later exact the same question is asked again as if it is some stunning new revelation.
Basically the Europhiles are bereft of any real arguments to support their position and so rely upon smears, lies and general wilfull ignorance to try to make their case.
A question for Europhiles: Is the Eurozone youth unemployment rate of 22.6% excellent, very good, or, merely, good?
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/02/15/europe-split-over-closing-greek-borders-to-migrants.html
Actually, it's worse. It's as if she said, "I know these great guys, they're called Fox and Farage and Galloway. They've got ideas for what we can do. Once we get there, some of them will decide."
Two people look after their own children and do the housework, they are economically inactive. Two people look after each other's children and do each other's housework, they magically become economically active.
I posted a link to a 420 page document on what Brexit could look like the other day. If you choose to ignore it that is up to you.
http://eureferendum.com/Flexcit.aspx
There are plenty of plans. I can think of at least 5 others ranging from EFTA + EEA through to a bespoke agreement with the EU.
Thank you - I'm not on here full-time. Unless you speak with some semblance of authority on behalf of a campaign it's all a bit speculative don't you think? My point remains that there is no definitive plan being put to the public by any of the 3/4 leave campaigns. There are lots like myself who need to know the implications - otherwise we opt for the status quo.
It's as if, meanwhile, you have neglected to mention to your wife about the plans to build an 8-lane motorway at the end of the garden if you don't move to Orkney. You are just hoping to stay right where you are and maybe, if you cross your fingers, the motorway will never actually materialize, even though the bulldozers are gathering on the horizon.