politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » ComRes online: LAB still 11% behind and 73% say party divid
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His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
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Please Mail on Sunday publish your damn poll, so I can write the morning thread and go to bed.0
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Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
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Before his election even many right wing pundits predicted even he would see a Lab poll lead at some point. I expect that to be the case eventually, but it may take longer than expected.AndyJS said:According to Wiki the Tories have racked up 44 consecutive opinion poll leads since the general election.
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TSE channelling timTheScreamingEagles said:Osborne is a genius
twitter.com/DJack_Journo/status/688487258714980353
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I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
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Tory LIESBig_G_NorthWales said:
To go upSunil_Prasannan said:
Plenty of time before the next UK election.justin124 said:
Why has the Tory lead dropped by 4% since November?dyingswan said:I think that the Com Res poll results tonight are stunning. The Labour leader has been defined in the space of four months.The PM dominates the centre ground of politics. Surely the strong public support for freedom of movement to work and the 4 year bar on benefits for EU migrants is a clear signal that if the PM comes back with a package of reforms and a recommendation to stay in Europe he is likely to prevail.
As to the 8 per cent who think that the Labour party is united I imagine that the same 8 per cent would say that they believe Aston Villa will win the Premiership. 0 -
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We will seeSunil_Prasannan said:
Tory LIESBig_G_NorthWales said:
To go upSunil_Prasannan said:
Plenty of time before the next UK election.justin124 said:
Why has the Tory lead dropped by 4% since November?dyingswan said:I think that the Com Res poll results tonight are stunning. The Labour leader has been defined in the space of four months.The PM dominates the centre ground of politics. Surely the strong public support for freedom of movement to work and the 4 year bar on benefits for EU migrants is a clear signal that if the PM comes back with a package of reforms and a recommendation to stay in Europe he is likely to prevail.
As to the 8 per cent who think that the Labour party is united I imagine that the same 8 per cent would say that they believe Aston Villa will win the Premiership.0 -
But then we won't all rush out to buy their paper....TheScreamingEagles said:Please Mail on Sunday publish your damn poll, so I can write the morning thread and go to bed.
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Are NHS staff really that violent psychopaths that they would do physical harm to him?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
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Corbynism sweeping the nation.....just how low can he go....Its ok, Corbyn is going to win lots of middle ground voters as he talks once again to himself and his followers in an exclusive interview in the Indy.0
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I know, better to ask Survation to send me their poll.tlg86 said:
But then we won't all rush out to buy their paper....TheScreamingEagles said:Please Mail on Sunday publish your damn poll, so I can write the morning thread and go to bed.
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Why not? You're all professional people. I assume you'd at least listen to him if he came to visit?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
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That's just PB Tory PropagandaFrancisUrquhart said:Corbynism sweeping the nation.....just how low can he go....
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Survation Westminster VI
Con 37% (nc) Lab: 30% (nc) UKIP: 16% (nc) Lib Dem: 7% (+1) Greens 3% (nc)0 -
There would be no point in listening to him.Wanderer said:
Why not? You're all professional people. I assume you'd at least listen to him if he came to visit?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
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Thats more like it. I tell you, Corbynism is sweeping the nation...or it is just that the lesser lead is just Tory / UKIP switchers ;-)TheScreamingEagles said:Survation Westminster VI
Con 37% (nc) Lab: 30% (nc) UKIP: 16% (nc) Lib Dem: 7% (+1) Greens 3% (nc)0 -
Certainly doesn't sound right. It looks like it might bd using a proportional change rather than UNS to get the 4 UKIP seats but in any case the LD share in this poll is down on the GE so getting gains requires some heroic assumptions about tactical voting, I think.justin124 said:0 -
A good poll for Leave generally, but a surprisingly small "bonus" if Boris gets involved.TheScreamingEagles said:Poll for the Mail on Sunday has Leave with a 6% lead, becomes an 8% lead if Boris led the Leave campaign
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CY33ArEWYAAG0Na.jpg0 -
That's not the point, people have no trust in him.TheScreamingEagles said:
Are NHS staff really that violent psychopaths that they would do physical harm to him?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
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Given the near apocalyptic language you used about Lansley's reforms, you get a bit hyperbolic when anyone proposes changes to the NHS.Chris_A said:
That's not the point, people have no trust in him.TheScreamingEagles said:
Are NHS staff really that violent psychopaths that they would do physical harm to him?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
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You mean some people have no trust in himChris_A said:
That's not the point, people have no trust in him.TheScreamingEagles said:
Are NHS staff really that violent psychopaths that they would do physical harm to him?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
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He's a good representative of the National Union of Doctors, opposing a proposed change because it's a change that is being proposed. Never forget that they opposed the creation of the NHS in the first place.TheScreamingEagles said:
Given the near apocalyptic language you used about Lansley's reforms, you get a bit hyperbolic when anyone proposes changes to the NHS.Chris_A said:
That's not the point, people have no trust in him.TheScreamingEagles said:
Are NHS staff really that violent psychopaths that they would do physical harm to him?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
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Wanderer said:
Why not? You're all professional people. I assume you'd at least listen to him if he came to visit?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
I believe that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a hospital at the weekend during his tenure.
Now that the juniors have struck once they will have a lower threshold to strike again.
If Hunt imposes the contract in August as threatened there are going to be a lot of vacant posts in the rota as juniors vote with their feet.
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The NHS is far too big and unwieldy a public service with several far too politicised unions.TheScreamingEagles said:
Given the near apocalyptic language you used about Lansley's reforms, you get a bit hyperbolic when anyone proposes changes to the NHS.Chris_A said:
That's not the point, people have no trust in him.TheScreamingEagles said:
Are NHS staff really that violent psychopaths that they would do physical harm to him?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
Why for example are there national pay discussions. Only helps the producers, not the consumers....
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Like their fellow perfidious counter-revolutionaries in ComRes, Survation should just bugger off and join the ToriesFrancisUrquhart said:
Thats more like it. I tell you, Corbynism is sweeping the nation...or it is just that the lesser lead is just Tory / UKIP switchers ;-)TheScreamingEagles said:Survation Westminster VI
Con 37% (nc) Lab: 30% (nc) UKIP: 16% (nc) Lib Dem: 7% (+1) Greens 3% (nc) 0 -
Herr Schaeuble's new EU wide petrol tax to pay for securing the Schnegen area's borders should go down well.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12103359/German-finance-minister-proposes-EU-wide-petrol-tax-to-pay-for-refugee-costs.html
One hopes Mr. Cameron will tell him to piss off.0 -
Kenneth Clarke, the most one nation Tory out there, said of all the trade unions he's ever had to deal with, the ones that work for the NHS were the most militant, and he's someone who spent nearly 25 years on the government front benches, so he would know.Mortimer said:
The NHS is far too big and unwieldy a public service with several far too politicised unions.TheScreamingEagles said:
Given the near apocalyptic language you used about Lansley's reforms, you get a bit hyperbolic when anyone proposes changes to the NHS.Chris_A said:
That's not the point, people have no trust in him.TheScreamingEagles said:
Are NHS staff really that violent psychopaths that they would do physical harm to him?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
Why for example are there national pay discussions. Only helps the producers, not the consumers....0 -
This 'we'll leave the country' threat surely shows up the docs for caring more about their pockets than patient safety.foxinsoxuk said:Wanderer said:
Why not? You're all professional people. I assume you'd at least listen to him if he came to visit?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
I believe that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a hospital at the weekend during his tenure.
Now that the juniors have struck once they will have a lower threshold to strike again.
If Hunt imposes the contract in August as threatened there are going to be a lot of vacant posts in the rota as juniors vote with their feet.
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They actually flew a nuclear-powered bomber: at least the reactor was in and running, but the plane flew under conventional power. The crew compartment was massively thick to protect them from radiation, and of the ground equipment, which was similarly protected.viewcode said:
All the nuclear powers went to submarine-launch as soon as they could because land-based weaponry was just too vulnerable. As the 50's advanced the USAF became more and more stressed by the pressure. By the end the pilots were sleeping in/near the planes, the planes had rockets attached for rapid launch and half the planes were in the air 24/7. Base commanders were stressed, airframes were aging rapidly, and they even started designing atomic-powered bombers. (snip)surbiton said:Why do we have to assume that staying nuclear has to be with Trident ? And, 4 of them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_NB-36H0 -
Along with the rest of Europe. He is so out of touch and this all feeds into the anti Europe narrativeHurstLlama said:Herr Schaeuble's new EU wide petrol tax to pay for securing the Schnegen area's borders should go down well.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12103359/German-finance-minister-proposes-EU-wide-petrol-tax-to-pay-for-refugee-costs.html
One hopes Mr. Cameron will tell his to piss off.0 -
Not so. The mess wrought by Lansley is coming to pass. The NHS needs reform. What it does not need are changes decided by political dogma which are then reversed a few years later. A useful start would be a sensible workforce plan. As an example the Home Office makes one change that all workers who are not earning £35k within 5 years will have to leave without realizing it would cripple nearly every hospital in the country when they're already bust because of pay on agency staff.TheScreamingEagles said:
Given the near apocalyptic language you used about Lansley's reforms, you get a bit hyperbolic when anyone proposes changes to the NHS.Chris_A said:
That's not the point, people have no trust in him.TheScreamingEagles said:
Are NHS staff really that violent psychopaths that they would do physical harm to him?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
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It certainly provides good ammunition for the repayable bursaries idea. I am damned if I can see why relatively poor taxpayers should fund the training of people who then take their new earning power abroad.Mortimer said:
This 'we'll leave the country' threat surely shows up the docs for caring more about their pockets than patient safety.foxinsoxuk said:Wanderer said:
Why not? You're all professional people. I assume you'd at least listen to him if he came to visit?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
I believe that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a hospital at the weekend during his tenure.
Now that the juniors have struck once they will have a lower threshold to strike again.
If Hunt imposes the contract in August as threatened there are going to be a lot of vacant posts in the rota as juniors vote with their feet.0 -
Not nessecarily the country. The new contract does not apply in Scotland or Wales. The paycuts affect the more antisocial hours specialities such as obstetrics and the emergency dept. Some will emigrate, some will move to other home nations, some will choose less antisocial specialities such as dermatology, and some will become locums so that they can choose their own hours. An increasing number will leave the profession for other careers.Mortimer said:
This 'we'll leave the country' threat surely shows up the docs for caring more about their pockets than patient safety.foxinsoxuk said:Wanderer said:
Why not? You're all professional people. I assume you'd at least listen to him if he came to visit?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
I believe that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a hospital at the weekend during his tenure.
Now that the juniors have struck once they will have a lower threshold to strike again.
If Hunt imposes the contract in August as threatened there are going to be a lot of vacant posts in the rota as juniors vote with their feet.
It is called "market forces" - something that pb tories are very fond of!0 -
They're entitled to do that. If the Health Secretary hasn't taken into account this possibility, he's been incompetent.Mortimer said:
This 'we'll leave the country' threat surely shows up the docs for caring more about their pockets than patient safety.foxinsoxuk said:Wanderer said:
Why not? You're all professional people. I assume you'd at least listen to him if he came to visit?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
I believe that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a hospital at the weekend during his tenure.
Now that the juniors have struck once they will have a lower threshold to strike again.
If Hunt imposes the contract in August as threatened there are going to be a lot of vacant posts in the rota as juniors vote with their feet.
We're seeing a combination of self-interest and Conquest's First Law among the junior doctors. This was entirely predictable.0 -
If the inflexible NHS can only survive on agency staff, it seems a perfect case of physicians needing to heal themselves.Chris_A said:
Not so. The mess wrought by Lansley is coming to pass. The NHS needs reform. What it does not need are changes decided by political dogma which are then reversed a few years later. A useful start would be a sensible workforce plan. As an example the Home Office makes one change that all workers who are not earning £35k within 5 years will have to leave without relishing it would cripple nearly every hospital in the country when they're already busy because of pay on agency staff.TheScreamingEagles said:
Given the near apocalyptic language you used about Lansley's reforms, you get a bit hyperbolic when anyone proposes changes to the NHS.Chris_A said:
That's not the point, people have no trust in him.TheScreamingEagles said:
Are NHS staff really that violent psychopaths that they would do physical harm to him?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
Reinstating decent GP services would be a good start.0 -
I wish I could post what my father thinks of junior doctors today.HurstLlama said:
It certainly provides good ammunition for the repayable bursaries idea. I am damned if I can see why relatively poor taxpayers should fund the training of people who then take their new earning power abroad.Mortimer said:
This 'we'll leave the country' threat surely shows up the docs for caring more about their pockets than patient safety.foxinsoxuk said:Wanderer said:
Why not? You're all professional people. I assume you'd at least listen to him if he came to visit?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
I believe that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a hospital at the weekend during his tenure.
Now that the juniors have struck once they will have a lower threshold to strike again.
If Hunt imposes the contract in August as threatened there are going to be a lot of vacant posts in the rota as juniors vote with their feet.
Most of it is unprintable, something about them putting people's lives at risks, have they never read the hippocratic oath? When I were a junior doctor I did 100 hour plus weeks, and I did for about 10k per year.0 -
And many will continue to follow their calling as was shown in the recent strike when nearly 40% did sofoxinsoxuk said:
Not nessecarily the country. The new contract does not apply in Scotland or Wales. The paycuts affect the more antisocial hours specialities such as obstetrics and the emergency dept. Some will emigrate, some will move to other home nations, some will choose less antisocial specialities such as dermatology, and some will become locums so that they can choose their own hours. An increasing number will leave the profession for other careers.Mortimer said:
This 'we'll leave the country' threat surely shows up the docs for caring more about their pockets than patient safety.foxinsoxuk said:Wanderer said:
Why not? You're all professional people. I assume you'd at least listen to him if he came to visit?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
I believe that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a hospital at the weekend during his tenure.
Now that the juniors have struck once they will have a lower threshold to strike again.
If Hunt imposes the contract in August as threatened there are going to be a lot of vacant posts in the rota as juniors vote with their feet.
It is called "market forces" - something that pb tories are very fond of!0 -
Of course they are entitled.AlastairMeeks said:
They're entitled to do that. If the Health Secretary hasn't taken into account this possibility, he's been incompetent.Mortimer said:
This 'we'll leave the country' threat surely shows up the docs for caring more about their pockets than patient safety.foxinsoxuk said:Wanderer said:
Why not? You're all professional people. I assume you'd at least listen to him if he came to visit?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
I believe that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a hospital at the weekend during his tenure.
Now that the juniors have struck once they will have a lower threshold to strike again.
If Hunt imposes the contract in August as threatened there are going to be a lot of vacant posts in the rota as juniors vote with their feet.
We're seeing a combination of self-interest and Conquest's First Law among the junior doctors. This was entirely predictable.
But they'll look like hypocrites after claiming their first concern was patient safety.
Incidentally, about 20 of my pals are Doctors. The sensible ones have kept very, very quiet about all this.
0 -
I'm not a fan of the Government's handling of the NHS and I think the Health and Social Care Act was stupid, but - to be entirely honest - your vehement certainty makes me listen to Hunt with more sympathy.Chris_A said:
There would be no point in listening to him.Wanderer said:
Why not? You're all professional people. I assume you'd at least listen to him if he came to visit?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
0 -
And there are agency staff because hospitals cannot recruit sufficient staff to operate safely. People would rather do without the sick pay and holiday pay to have the flexibility of working for an agency. More market forces for you and again all you PB Tories should be loving this.Mortimer said:
If the inflexible NHS can only survive on agency staff, it seems a perfect case of physicians needing to heal themselves.Chris_A said:
Not so. The mess wrought by Lansley is coming to pass. The NHS needs reform. What it does not need are changes decided by political dogma which are then reversed a few years later. A useful start would be a sensible workforce plan. As an example the Home Office makes one change that all workers who are not earning £35k within 5 years will have to leave without relishing it would cripple nearly every hospital in the country when they're already busy because of pay on agency staff.TheScreamingEagles said:
Given the near apocalyptic language you used about Lansley's reforms, you get a bit hyperbolic when anyone proposes changes to the NHS.Chris_A said:
That's not the point, people have no trust in him.TheScreamingEagles said:
Are NHS staff really that violent psychopaths that they would do physical harm to him?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
Reinstating decent GP services would be a good start.0 -
When you allow for the fact that a large proportion of that 40% were rostered for emergency services we see that that figure is ministerial spin. A more meaningful figure would be the % who were eligible to strike who did so. I would say this was over 85% in my own hospital.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And many will continue to follow their calling as was shown in the recent strike when nearly 40% did sofoxinsoxuk said:
Not nessecarily the country. The new contract does not apply in Scotland or Wales. The paycuts affect the more antisocial hours specialities such as obstetrics and the emergency dept. Some will emigrate, some will move to other home nations, some will choose less antisocial specialities such as dermatology, and some will become locums so that they can choose their own hours. An increasing number will leave the profession for other careers.Mortimer said:
This 'we'll leave the country' threat surely shows up the docs for caring more about their pockets than patient safety.foxinsoxuk said:Wanderer said:
Why not? You're all professional people. I assume you'd at least listen to him if he came to visit?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
I believe that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a hospital at the weekend during his tenure.
Now that the juniors have struck once they will have a lower threshold to strike again.
If Hunt imposes the contract in August as threatened there are going to be a lot of vacant posts in the rota as juniors vote with their feet.
It is called "market forces" - something that pb tories are very fond of!0 -
If anyone should still be wondering why the polls were wrong last May , have a detailed look at the Comres data tables .
86% of the sample say they voted last May . Of those just over 20% say they voted UKIP .
The first principle of polling is to get a sample as close as possible to the population as a whole . Comres can clearly not do this by sampling their online panel .0 -
How many times do you need telling? There were always going to be about 40% of doctors in work last Tuesday. Don't fall for Hunt's spin.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And many will continue to follow their calling as was shown in the recent strike when nearly 40% did sofoxinsoxuk said:
Not nessecarily the country. The new contract does not apply in Scotland or Wales. The paycuts affect the more antisocial hours specialities such as obstetrics and the emergency dept. Some will emigrate, some will move to other home nations, some will choose less antisocial specialities such as dermatology, and some will become locums so that they can choose their own hours. An increasing number will leave the profession for other careers.Mortimer said:
This 'we'll leave the country' threat surely shows up the docs for caring more about their pockets than patient safety.foxinsoxuk said:Wanderer said:
Why not? You're all professional people. I assume you'd at least listen to him if he came to visit?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
I believe that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a hospital at the weekend during his tenure.
Now that the juniors have struck once they will have a lower threshold to strike again.
If Hunt imposes the contract in August as threatened there are going to be a lot of vacant posts in the rota as juniors vote with their feet.
It is called "market forces" - something that pb tories are very fond of!0 -
What the people think likely doesn't matter on this point - his internal enemies would see to him. 'You were already going to go at some point, and now you've been humiliated. Thanks for 2015, now bugger off'ThreeQuidder said:0 -
Sounds like the managerial qualities of the service are pretty thin on the ground, then.Chris_A said:
And there are agency staff because hospitals cannot recruit sufficient staff to operate safely. People would rather do without the sick pay and holiday pay to have the flexibility of working for an agency. More market forces for you and again all you PB Tories should be loving this.Mortimer said:
If the inflexible NHS can only survive on agency staff, it seems a perfect case of physicians needing to heal themselves.Chris_A said:
Not so. The mess wrought by Lansley is coming to pass. The NHS needs reform. What it does not need are changes decided by political dogma which are then reversed a few years later. A useful start would be a sensible workforce plan. As an example the Home Office makes one change that all workers who are not earning £35k within 5 years will have to leave without relishing it would cripple nearly every hospital in the country when they're already busy because of pay on agency staff.TheScreamingEagles said:
Given the near apocalyptic language you used about Lansley's reforms, you get a bit hyperbolic when anyone proposes changes to the NHS.Chris_A said:
That's not the point, people have no trust in him.TheScreamingEagles said:
Are NHS staff really that violent psychopaths that they would do physical harm to him?Chris_A said:
I doubt whether Hunt could put in an appearance in any hospital in the country now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Looks like you don't like him thenChris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
Reinstating decent GP services would be a good start.
Is agency working about flexibility or higher pay?
Seems like everything is about producer pay...0 -
What a sad bunch these junior doctors must be. No vocation and its all about the money. Is that why they chose medicine, I wonder. Somehow I doubt many people enter medical school thinking of pound signs.foxinsoxuk said:
Not nessecarily the country. The new contract does not apply in Scotland or Wales. The paycuts affect the more antisocial hours specialities such as obstetrics and the emergency dept. Some will emigrate, some will move to other home nations, some will choose less antisocial specialities such as dermatology, and some will become locums so that they can choose their own hours. An increasing number will leave the profession for other careers.
It is called "market forces" - something that pb tories are very fond of!
Still no doubt you are right, the question is what can the government do about it. If doctors want to be treated the same way as any other industrial worker, caring more about their pockets than their patients, then HMG on behalf of the nation must take steps accordingly. Long term this is not going to be good for the doctors or for the NHS as we know it.0 -
As much as we'd expect the opposition to be doing much better in the polling at this point, I can kind of see why a Corbynista, in between ridiculing polling (not that just Corbynistas are doing that) saying, 'see, no worse than Ed M, you're being ridiculous, now give it time'. We cling to what we can.TheScreamingEagles said:Survation Westminster VI
Con 37% (nc) Lab: 30% (nc) UKIP: 16% (nc) Lib Dem: 7% (+1) Greens 3% (nc)
If Lab lose sub 100 seats in May, presumably that'd be a great result for Corbyn?0 -
Nope, he should be making gains at this point in the electoral cycle.kle4 said:
As much as we'd expect the opposition to be doing much better in the polling at this point, I can kind of see why a Corbynista, in between ridiculing polling (not that just Corbynistas are doing that) saying, 'see, no worse than Ed M, you're being ridiculous, now give it time'. We cling to what we can.TheScreamingEagles said:Survation Westminster VI
Con 37% (nc) Lab: 30% (nc) UKIP: 16% (nc) Lib Dem: 7% (+1) Greens 3% (nc)
If Lab lose sub 100 seats in May, presumably that'd be a great result for Corbyn?
In Michael Foot's first set of council elections after he became leader, Labour won 988 seats
(Not a strict comparison/benchmark, as many areas have gone from having district and county councils to single tier authorities)0 -
And many will continue to follow their calling as was shown in the recent strike when nearly 40% did so
When you allow for the fact that a large proportion of that 40% were rostered for emergency services we see that that figure is ministerial spin. A more meaningful figure would be the % who were eligible to strike who did so. I would say this was over 85% in my own hospital.
Maybe but the Public think the BMA covers all Junior Doctors and apparently it is nearer 70%. Both sides need to drop the anger and negotiate a settlement. It is no use calling Jeremy Hunt out when the leaders of the BMA are just as culpable with established connections to the left.0 -
As I predicted, there has been no outpouring of public sympathy for the docs.
Can't wait for the next opinion polls preceding their next planned strike.
And the one immediately after said second strike...0 -
Not entirely about money but of course it matters.HurstLlama said:
What a sad bunch these junior doctors must be. No vocation and its all about the money. Is that why they chose medicine, I wonder. Somehow I doubt many people enter medical school thinking of pound signs.foxinsoxuk said:
Not nessecarily the country. The new contract does not apply in Scotland or Wales. The paycuts affect the more antisocial hours specialities such as obstetrics and the emergency dept. Some will emigrate, some will move to other home nations, some will choose less antisocial specialities such as dermatology, and some will become locums so that they can choose their own hours. An increasing number will leave the profession for other careers.
It is called "market forces" - something that pb tories are very fond of!
Still no doubt you are right, the question is what can the government do about it. If doctors want to be treated the same way as any other industrial worker, caring more about their pockets than their patients, then HMG on behalf of the nation must take steps accordingly. Long term this is not going to be good for the doctors or for the NHS as we know it.
But if the management treats the staff with contempt then they should not be surprised that the workers feel no loyalty to the management.
If the government is serious about delivering additional weekend services then it might be sensible to get the key workers on side. The fact that Hunt has done the precise opposite shows how incompetent he is at personnel management.0 -
Does the poll not show a 20-point plurality for "supporting" the strike...Mortimer said:As I predicted, there has been no outpouring of public sympathy for the docs.
Can't wait for the next opinion polls preceding their next planned strike.
And the one immediately after said second strike...0 -
The expectation the anti-Corbynites need to set is for some number of gains. They should be trying to drown out talk of inevitable 200 seat losses which would make losing <100 success as @kle4 says.TheScreamingEagles said:
Nope, he should be making gains at this point in the electoral cycle.kle4 said:
As much as we'd expect the opposition to be doing much better in the polling at this point, I can kind of see why a Corbynista, in between ridiculing polling (not that just Corbynistas are doing that) saying, 'see, no worse than Ed M, you're being ridiculous, now give it time'. We cling to what we can.TheScreamingEagles said:Survation Westminster VI
Con 37% (nc) Lab: 30% (nc) UKIP: 16% (nc) Lib Dem: 7% (+1) Greens 3% (nc)
If Lab lose sub 100 seats in May, presumably that'd be a great result for Corbyn?
In Michael Foot's first set of council elections after he became leader, Labour won 988 seats
(Not a strict comparison/benchmark, as many areas have gone from having district and county councils to single tier authorities)0 -
According to the poll cited above the public back the strikers over the government by 51% to 31%.Mortimer said:As I predicted, there has been no outpouring of public sympathy for the docs.
Can't wait for the next opinion polls preceding their next planned strike.
And the one immediately after said second strike...0 -
Though on this, I have to say I find the talk of "supporting" or "opposing" the strike quite curious, personally.Danny565 said:
Does the poll not show a 20-point plurality for "supporting" the strike...Mortimer said:As I predicted, there has been no outpouring of public sympathy for the docs.
Can't wait for the next opinion polls preceding their next planned strike.
And the one immediately after said second strike...
I'm not sure how I'd answer a question like that. Saying you "support" the strike, to me, sounds like you're saying you're happy the strike is happening (in which light, I'm surprised as many as 51% say they support it). I very much wish the strike wasn't happening, and if I was getting treatment delayed because of it I'd be very annoyed, so I don't "support" it in that sense; but I understand why it's happening and don't blame the doctors for it.0 -
Yes but that could soon wither on the vine if the next 2 day strike and then the A & E strike in feb go aheadDanny565 said:
Does the poll not show a 20-point plurality for "supporting" the strike...Mortimer said:As I predicted, there has been no outpouring of public sympathy for the docs.
Can't wait for the next opinion polls preceding their next planned strike.
And the one immediately after said second strike...0 -
It does, though it also shows a 43-point margin for the TU opt-inDanny565 said:
Does the poll not show a 20-point plurality for "supporting" the strike...Mortimer said:As I predicted, there has been no outpouring of public sympathy for the docs.
Can't wait for the next opinion polls preceding their next planned strike.
And the one immediately after said second strike...
0 -
On this subject Conservatives resemble SNP supporters and their 45% mandate for independence.Danny565 said:
Does the poll not show a 20-point plurality for "supporting" the strike...Mortimer said:As I predicted, there has been no outpouring of public sympathy for the docs.
Can't wait for the next opinion polls preceding their next planned strike.
And the one immediately after said second strike...0 -
Before the strike it was almost possible to believe that doctors were fighting for some higher cause, that this wasn't just a demand for some of the best paid workers in the country for more money but now, not so much.
I for one am getting fairly tired of these people believing they have both moral superiority and the right to hold the rest of us to ransom. I think the long term implications of this strike will not necessarily be to the medical profession's advantage. They are no better than tube drivers.0 -
Count me out of that.TheScreamingEagles said:
A lot of PB Tories are still Corbyn cheerleaders.Mortimer said:Does Corbo even have any cheerleaders left on pb now?
I think he's a disaster for the Conservatives.0 -
The polls could move either way.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes but that could soon wither on the vine if the next 2 day strike and then the A & E strike in feb go aheadDanny565 said:
Does the poll not show a 20-point plurality for "supporting" the strike...Mortimer said:As I predicted, there has been no outpouring of public sympathy for the docs.
Can't wait for the next opinion polls preceding their next planned strike.
And the one immediately after said second strike...
While the Government commands a majority in Parliament, its mandate from the public is much weaker 63 % voted in May for parties other than the Tories.0 -
Speaks a Scot, whose own NHS is unaffected by the strike as the Scottish NHS is not using the new contract.DavidL said:Before the strike it was almost possible to believe that doctors were fighting for some higher cause, that this wasn't just a demand for some of the best paid workers in the country for more money but now, not so much.
I for one am getting fairly tired of these people believing they have both moral superiority and the right to hold the rest of us to ransom. I think the long term implications of this strike will not necessarily be to the medical profession's advantage. They are no better than tube drivers.0 -
Thats a poor argumentfoxinsoxuk said:
The polls could move either way.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes but that could soon wither on the vine if the next 2 day strike and then the A & E strike in feb go aheadDanny565 said:
Does the poll not show a 20-point plurality for "supporting" the strike...Mortimer said:As I predicted, there has been no outpouring of public sympathy for the docs.
Can't wait for the next opinion polls preceding their next planned strike.
And the one immediately after said second strike...
While the Government commands a majority in Parliament, its mandate from the public is much weaker 63 % voted in May for parties other than the Tories.0 -
No one can deny that Osborne wants to be precisely like Blair.surbiton said:
Cameron commands the centre ground, like Blair. No one can deny that.kle4 said:
If that were the case why didn't people vote for the real thing?PClipp said:
Rubbish, Mr Eagles! Labour did it all by themselves.TheScreamingEagles said:
So feeble, he's driven Labour insane and wiped out the Lib Dems.PClipp said:Is that all that Cameron`s great renegotiation ploy consists of?
It seems to me that Cameron is the most feeble prime minister we have had since Neville Chamberlain.
Just imagine what he would have achieved if he wasn't feeble.
As for the Lib Dems, Cameron was so feeble that the people at the top of the Lib Dems actually trusted him! From the beginning, Cameron was a broken reed. What the Tories had to do was import a rottweiler from abroad and give him a knighthood. Crosby won the last election for the Tories (albeit with under 25% of the registered voters). Cameron just dithered around, pretending to be a Lib Dem.
Look, Cameron has his flaws, and I was among those who voted LD, but the idea Cameron is self evidently terrible loser who, to see you explain it, contributed pretty much nothing to his own victory, relying instead on the people being idiots (which is your implication in that Crosby must have tricked the people into voting Cameron, and that they only voted Cameron for acting like a LD, despite LDs being on the ballot), is pretty absurd.
I actually think there is something in the point that Cameron's apparent comfort in coalition made some people, particularly in the SW, think he was more acceptable to vote for than previous Tories, but you don't get as big a lead in the votes as he did purely on the opposition being crap and through tricks (and yes, I know it wasn't so big a lead given how small a parliamentary majority it is, but is still a lot more votes)0 -
This is how I feel about big-business leaders endlessly screaming how they'll leave the country if taxes are raised.DavidL said:I for one am getting fairly tired of these people believing they have both moral superiority and the right to hold the rest of us to ransom. I think the long term implications of this strike will not necessarily be to the medical profession's advantage. They are no better than tube drivers.
0 -
Yes, it's a difficult question to interpret. It's only one poll but the 20-point gap is smaller than I would have expected, if one interpreted it as yes=pro-doctor, no=pro-Government. But I think you are right that it's not as simple as that. I guess I would answer no and just think that both parties should settle.Danny565 said:
Though on this, I have to say I find the talk of "supporting" or "opposing" the strike quite curious, personally.Danny565 said:
Does the poll not show a 20-point plurality for "supporting" the strike...Mortimer said:As I predicted, there has been no outpouring of public sympathy for the docs.
Can't wait for the next opinion polls preceding their next planned strike.
And the one immediately after said second strike...
I'm not sure how I'd answer a question like that. Saying you "support" the strike, to me, sounds like you're saying you're happy the strike is happening (in which light, I'm surprised as many as 51% say they support it). I very much wish the strike wasn't happening, and if I was getting treatment delayed because of it I'd be very annoyed, so I don't "support" it in that sense; but I understand why it's happening and don't blame the doctors for it.0 -
Me too.Casino_Royale said:
Count me out of that.TheScreamingEagles said:
A lot of PB Tories are still Corbyn cheerleaders.Mortimer said:Does Corbo even have any cheerleaders left on pb now?
I think he's a disaster for the Conservatives.
Those Tories for Corbyn are going to very quiet when Momentum start turning their attention onto Tories.0 -
Wales is also not part of the new contract. Indeed it may resolve some of the recruitment difficulties of the Welsh NHS, as English docs cross the border.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Thats a poor argumentfoxinsoxuk said:
The polls could move either way.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes but that could soon wither on the vine if the next 2 day strike and then the A & E strike in feb go aheadDanny565 said:
Does the poll not show a 20-point plurality for "supporting" the strike...Mortimer said:As I predicted, there has been no outpouring of public sympathy for the docs.
Can't wait for the next opinion polls preceding their next planned strike.
And the one immediately after said second strike...
While the Government commands a majority in Parliament, its mandate from the public is much weaker 63 % voted in May for parties other than the Tories.0 -
Doc, I listen carefully to everything you say about the NHS. You know far more about it than I do, care about as much as I do, and, unlike some, are not blind to its manifold failings. The fact remains that the one word that comes across from the dispute is money, it is all about the money. The idea of improving outcome for patients admitted at weekends and anything else has been lost because, even in your own posts, the number one item is repeatedly the dosh.foxinsoxuk said:
Not entirely about money but of course it matters.HurstLlama said:
What a sad bunch these junior doctors must be. No vocation and its all about the money. Is that why they chose medicine, I wonder. Somehow I doubt many people enter medical school thinking of pound signs.foxinsoxuk said:
Not nessecarily the country. The new contract does not apply in Scotland or Wales. The paycuts affect the more antisocial hours specialities such as obstetrics and the emergency dept. Some will emigrate, some will move to other home nations, some will choose less antisocial specialities such as dermatology, and some will become locums so that they can choose their own hours. An increasing number will leave the profession for other careers.
It is called "market forces" - something that pb tories are very fond of!
Still no doubt you are right, the question is what can the government do about it. If doctors want to be treated the same way as any other industrial worker, caring more about their pockets than their patients, then HMG on behalf of the nation must take steps accordingly. Long term this is not going to be good for the doctors or for the NHS as we know it.
But if the management treats the staff with contempt then they should not be surprised that the workers feel no loyalty to the management.
If the government is serious about delivering additional weekend services then it might be sensible to get the key workers on side. The fact that Hunt has done the precise opposite shows how incompetent he is at personnel management.
I feel very sad about this whole affair and as I look at the young attractive faces of junior doctors that the TV always seems to find I am reminded of the miners strike in the eighties. Good people who were being led by the nose to their eventual detriment. You said in an earlier post that the junior doctors would now find it easier to strike in the future. I am sure you are right. The problem is that, like the miners, the country cannot be held to ransom and therefore will, indeed must, take steps accordingly. It won't happen overnight but I fear it will happen to the great detriment of future doctors and the NHS as we know it.0 -
I know. One of the major failings of the SNP is to fail to address the bureaucratic inefficiency of the NHS in Scotland and that involves both the management and doctors contracts. The strains are already showing and a crisis is not far away.foxinsoxuk said:
Speaks a Scot, whose own NHS is unaffected by the strike as the Scottish NHS is not using the new contract.DavidL said:Before the strike it was almost possible to believe that doctors were fighting for some higher cause, that this wasn't just a demand for some of the best paid workers in the country for more money but now, not so much.
I for one am getting fairly tired of these people believing they have both moral superiority and the right to hold the rest of us to ransom. I think the long term implications of this strike will not necessarily be to the medical profession's advantage. They are no better than tube drivers.0 -
Yes; IMO, "who do you blame most for the strike, the government or the doctors/BMA?" would be a more illuminating question than simply "do you support the strike?".Wanderer said:
Yes, it's a difficult question to interpret. It's only one poll but the 20-point gap is smaller than I would have expected, if one interpreted it as yes=pro-doctor, no=pro-Government. But I think you are right that it's not as simple as that. I guess I would answer no and just think that both parties should settle.Danny565 said:
Though on this, I have to say I find the talk of "supporting" or "opposing" the strike quite curious, personally.Danny565 said:
Does the poll not show a 20-point plurality for "supporting" the strike...Mortimer said:As I predicted, there has been no outpouring of public sympathy for the docs.
Can't wait for the next opinion polls preceding their next planned strike.
And the one immediately after said second strike...
I'm not sure how I'd answer a question like that. Saying you "support" the strike, to me, sounds like you're saying you're happy the strike is happening (in which light, I'm surprised as many as 51% say they support it). I very much wish the strike wasn't happening, and if I was getting treatment delayed because of it I'd be very annoyed, so I don't "support" it in that sense; but I understand why it's happening and don't blame the doctors for it.0 -
Yeah, I am pretty underwhelmed by them too. Special pleading is never attractive.Danny565 said:
This is how I feel about big-business leaders endlessly screaming how they'll leave the country if taxes are raised.DavidL said:I for one am getting fairly tired of these people believing they have both moral superiority and the right to hold the rest of us to ransom. I think the long term implications of this strike will not necessarily be to the medical profession's advantage. They are no better than tube drivers.
0 -
I'm actually surprised the Greens are as high as 3% - I expected their voteshare to be stripped almost bare once Corbyn's crew took over at Labour. Obviously 3% is not a lot, but it puts them within the same order of magnitude as the Lib Dems.FrancisUrquhart said:
Thats more like it. I tell you, Corbynism is sweeping the nation...or it is just that the lesser lead is just Tory / UKIP switchers ;-)TheScreamingEagles said:Survation Westminster VI
Con 37% (nc) Lab: 30% (nc) UKIP: 16% (nc) Lib Dem: 7% (+1) Greens 3% (nc)0 -
That was not my point. If Jeremy Corbyn had a majority on 37% of the vote are you saying he wouldn't have a mandate for his manifesto. And as far as Wales NHS it is an utter shambles under Welsh labourfoxinsoxuk said:
Wales is also not part of the new contract. Indeed it may resolve some of the recruitment difficulties of the Welsh NHS, as English docs cross the border.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Thats a poor argumentfoxinsoxuk said:
The polls could move either way.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes but that could soon wither on the vine if the next 2 day strike and then the A & E strike in feb go aheadDanny565 said:
Does the poll not show a 20-point plurality for "supporting" the strike...Mortimer said:As I predicted, there has been no outpouring of public sympathy for the docs.
Can't wait for the next opinion polls preceding their next planned strike.
And the one immediately after said second strike...
While the Government commands a majority in Parliament, its mandate from the public is much weaker 63 % voted in May for parties other than the Tories.0 -
As an ex-military man, surely you would understand that if the government cut military pay while increasing overseas deployments then a fair number would not re-enlist, and that others would change career. It would affect recruitment too. Soldiers, sailors and airmen are expensive to train too. The same principle applies. I would not accuse them of being un-patriotic.HurstLlama said:
Doc, I listen carefully to everything you say about the NHS. You know far more about it than I do, care about as much as I do, and, unlike some, are not blind to its manifold failings. The fact remains that the one word that comes across from the dispute is money, it is all about the money. The idea of improving outcome for patients admitted at weekends and anything else has been lost because, even in your own posts, the number one item is repeatedly the dosh.foxinsoxuk said:
Not entirely about money but of course it matters.HurstLlama said:
What a sad bunch these junior doctors must be. No vocation and its all about the money. Is that why they chose medicine, I wonder. Somehow I doubt many people enter medical school thinking of pound signs.foxinsoxuk said:
Not nessecarily the country. The new contract does not apply in Scotland or Wales. The paycuts affect the more antisocial hours specialities such as obstetrics and the emergency dept. Some will emigrate, some will move to other home nations, some will choose less antisocial specialities such as dermatology, and some will become locums so that they can choose their own hours. An increasing number will leave the profession for other careers.
It is called "market forces" - something that pb tories are very fond of!
Still no doubt you are right, the question is what can the government do about it. If doctors want to be treated the same way as any other industrial worker, caring more about their pockets than their patients, then HMG on behalf of the nation must take steps accordingly. Long term this is not going to be good for the doctors or for the NHS as we know it.
I feel very sad about this whole affair and as I look at the young attractive faces of junior doctors that the TV always seems to find I am reminded of the miners strike in the eighties. Good people who were being led by the nose to their eventual detriment. You said in an earlier post that the junior doctors would now find it easier to strike in the future. I am sure you are right. The problem is that, like the miners, the country cannot be held to ransom and therefore will, indeed must, take steps accordingly. It won't happen overnight but I fear it will happen to the great detriment of future doctors and the NHS as we know it.0 -
I have this theory, that Old Greens (ie those who voted Green in May 2015) have switched to Corbyn's Labour, but moderate Labour voters who think Jez is a disaster have moved to the Greens.MyBurningEars said:
I'm actually surprised the Greens are as high as 3% - I expected their voteshare to be stripped almost bare once Corbyn's crew took over at Labour. Obviously 3% is not a lot, but it puts them within the same order of magnitude as the Lib Dems.FrancisUrquhart said:
Thats more like it. I tell you, Corbynism is sweeping the nation...or it is just that the lesser lead is just Tory / UKIP switchers ;-)TheScreamingEagles said:Survation Westminster VI
Con 37% (nc) Lab: 30% (nc) UKIP: 16% (nc) Lib Dem: 7% (+1) Greens 3% (nc)0 -
Well, its a theory.TheScreamingEagles said:
I have this theory, that Old Greens (ie those who voted Green in May 2015) have switched to Corbyn's Labour, but moderate Labour voters who think Jez is a disaster have moved to the Greens.MyBurningEars said:
I'm actually surprised the Greens are as high as 3% - I expected their voteshare to be stripped almost bare once Corbyn's crew took over at Labour. Obviously 3% is not a lot, but it puts them within the same order of magnitude as the Lib Dems.FrancisUrquhart said:
Thats more like it. I tell you, Corbynism is sweeping the nation...or it is just that the lesser lead is just Tory / UKIP switchers ;-)TheScreamingEagles said:Survation Westminster VI
Con 37% (nc) Lab: 30% (nc) UKIP: 16% (nc) Lib Dem: 7% (+1) Greens 3% (nc)0 -
It makes the Conservative government slack, lazy and complacent. That makes for bad government. If it continues for years, it will be toxic for the Tories, as William Hague says here:TheScreamingEagles said:
Me too.Casino_Royale said:
Count me out of that.TheScreamingEagles said:
A lot of PB Tories are still Corbyn cheerleaders.Mortimer said:Does Corbo even have any cheerleaders left on pb now?
I think he's a disaster for the Conservatives.
Those Tories for Corbyn are going to very quiet when Momentum start turning their attention onto Tories.
http://www.conservativehome.com/video/2016/01/watch-hague-on-the-need-for-a-strong-opposition.html
Also Osborne has clearly tacked the party to the Left since Corbyn took charge in a desire to occupy the "space" vacated by mainstream Labour.
He thinks its a fantastic opportunity for strategic repositioning.
I think in reality it will be more about a string of base tactical choices that will amount to an intellectual political surrender and further hollow out the party over time through taking their own supporters for granted.0 -
Has Osborne shown any appetite for invading the Middle East?Casino_Royale said:
No one can deny that Osborne wants to be precisely like Blair.surbiton said:
Cameron commands the centre ground, like Blair. No one can deny that.kle4 said:
If that were the case why didn't people vote for the real thing?PClipp said:
Rubbish, Mr Eagles! Labour did it all by themselves.TheScreamingEagles said:
So feeble, he's driven Labour insane and wiped out the Lib Dems.PClipp said:Is that all that Cameron`s great renegotiation ploy consists of?
It seems to me that Cameron is the most feeble prime minister we have had since Neville Chamberlain.
Just imagine what he would have achieved if he wasn't feeble.
As for the Lib Dems, Cameron was so feeble that the people at the top of the Lib Dems actually trusted him! From the beginning, Cameron was a broken reed. What the Tories had to do was import a rottweiler from abroad and give him a knighthood. Crosby won the last election for the Tories (albeit with under 25% of the registered voters). Cameron just dithered around, pretending to be a Lib Dem.
Look, Cameron has his flaws, and I was among those who voted LD, but the idea Cameron is self evidently terrible loser who, to see you explain it, contributed pretty much nothing to his own victory, relying instead on the people being idiots (which is your implication in that Crosby must have tricked the people into voting Cameron, and that they only voted Cameron for acting like a LD, despite LDs being on the ballot), is pretty absurd.
I actually think there is something in the point that Cameron's apparent comfort in coalition made some people, particularly in the SW, think he was more acceptable to vote for than previous Tories, but you don't get as big a lead in the votes as he did purely on the opposition being crap and through tricks (and yes, I know it wasn't so big a lead given how small a parliamentary majority it is, but is still a lot more votes)0 -
Lord Hague is right.Casino_Royale said:
It makes the Conservative government slack, lazy and complacent. That makes for bad government. If it continues for years, it will be toxic for the Tories, as William Hague says here:TheScreamingEagles said:
Me too.Casino_Royale said:
Count me out of that.TheScreamingEagles said:
A lot of PB Tories are still Corbyn cheerleaders.Mortimer said:Does Corbo even have any cheerleaders left on pb now?
I think he's a disaster for the Conservatives.
Those Tories for Corbyn are going to very quiet when Momentum start turning their attention onto Tories.
http://www.conservativehome.com/video/2016/01/watch-hague-on-the-need-for-a-strong-opposition.html
Also Osborne has clearly tacked the party to the Left since Corbyn took charge in a desire to occupy the "space" vacated by mainstream Labour.
He thinks its a fantastic opportunity for strategic repositioning.
I think in reality it will be more about a string of base tactical choices that will amount to an intellectual political surrender and further hollow out the party over time through taking their own supporters for granted.
Personally I think Osborne sees this as an opportunity to destroy Labour, which isn't an ignoble thing.0 -
In reality it is more likely that the 'base tactical choices' are instead examples of repositioning the party to be more in line with the centrist electorate.Casino_Royale said:
It makes the Conservative government slack, lazy and complacent. That makes for bad government. If it continues for years, it will be toxic for the Tories, as William Hague says here:TheScreamingEagles said:
Me too.Casino_Royale said:
Count me out of that.TheScreamingEagles said:
A lot of PB Tories are still Corbyn cheerleaders.Mortimer said:Does Corbo even have any cheerleaders left on pb now?
I think he's a disaster for the Conservatives.
Those Tories for Corbyn are going to very quiet when Momentum start turning their attention onto Tories.
http://www.conservativehome.com/video/2016/01/watch-hague-on-the-need-for-a-strong-opposition.html
Also Osborne has clearly tacked the party to the Left since Corbyn took charge in a desire to occupy the "space" vacated by mainstream Labour.
He thinks its a fantastic opportunity for strategic repositioning.
I think in reality it will be more about a string of base tactical choices that will amount to an intellectual political surrender and further hollow out the party over time through taking their own supporters for granted.
The world has changed so much since 97 - there are very few social conservatives anymore.
Edit: and the Osbo tack to the left occurred before Corbo was elected, no?0 -
Osbourne - the ultimate political operatorTheScreamingEagles said:
Lord Hague is right.Casino_Royale said:
It makes the Conservative government slack, lazy and complacent. That makes for bad government. If it continues for years, it will be toxic for the Tories, as William Hague says here:TheScreamingEagles said:
Me too.Casino_Royale said:
Count me out of that.TheScreamingEagles said:
A lot of PB Tories are still Corbyn cheerleaders.Mortimer said:Does Corbo even have any cheerleaders left on pb now?
I think he's a disaster for the Conservatives.
Those Tories for Corbyn are going to very quiet when Momentum start turning their attention onto Tories.
http://www.conservativehome.com/video/2016/01/watch-hague-on-the-need-for-a-strong-opposition.html
Also Osborne has clearly tacked the party to the Left since Corbyn took charge in a desire to occupy the "space" vacated by mainstream Labour.
He thinks its a fantastic opportunity for strategic repositioning.
I think in reality it will be more about a string of base tactical choices that will amount to an intellectual political surrender and further hollow out the party over time through taking their own supporters for granted.
Personally I think Osborne sees this as an opportunity to destroy Labour, which isn't an ignoble thing.0 -
I think the term social conservative means different things to different people.Mortimer said:
In reality it is more likely that the 'base tactical choices' are instead examples of repositioning the party to be more in line with the centrist electorate.Casino_Royale said:
It makes the Conservative government slack, lazy and complacent. That makes for bad government. If it continues for years, it will be toxic for the Tories, as William Hague says here:TheScreamingEagles said:
Me too.Casino_Royale said:
Count me out of that.TheScreamingEagles said:
A lot of PB Tories are still Corbyn cheerleaders.Mortimer said:Does Corbo even have any cheerleaders left on pb now?
I think he's a disaster for the Conservatives.
Those Tories for Corbyn are going to very quiet when Momentum start turning their attention onto Tories.
http://www.conservativehome.com/video/2016/01/watch-hague-on-the-need-for-a-strong-opposition.html
Also Osborne has clearly tacked the party to the Left since Corbyn took charge in a desire to occupy the "space" vacated by mainstream Labour.
He thinks its a fantastic opportunity for strategic repositioning.
I think in reality it will be more about a string of base tactical choices that will amount to an intellectual political surrender and further hollow out the party over time through taking their own supporters for granted.
The world has changed so much since 97 - there are very few social conservatives anymore.
Edit: and the Osbo tack to the left occurred before Corbo was elected, no?0 -
Given that Labour lost the last general election, they really ought to be making gains at interim elections if they want to be on track for the big one.kle4 said:
As much as we'd expect the opposition to be doing much better in the polling at this point, I can kind of see why a Corbynista, in between ridiculing polling (not that just Corbynistas are doing that) saying, 'see, no worse than Ed M, you're being ridiculous, now give it time'. We cling to what we can.TheScreamingEagles said:Survation Westminster VI
Con 37% (nc) Lab: 30% (nc) UKIP: 16% (nc) Lib Dem: 7% (+1) Greens 3% (nc)
If Lab lose sub 100 seats in May, presumably that'd be a great result for Corbyn?0 -
Indeed - but I'm not sure many people would define themselves in those terms anymore - and, let's face it, they're not going to vote LD or Labour....TheScreamingEagles said:
I think the term social conservative means different things to different people.Mortimer said:
In reality it is more likely that the 'base tactical choices' are instead examples of repositioning the party to be more in line with the centrist electorate.Casino_Royale said:
It makes the Conservative government slack, lazy and complacent. That makes for bad government. If it continues for years, it will be toxic for the Tories, as William Hague says here:TheScreamingEagles said:
Me too.Casino_Royale said:
Count me out of that.TheScreamingEagles said:
A lot of PB Tories are still Corbyn cheerleaders.Mortimer said:Does Corbo even have any cheerleaders left on pb now?
I think he's a disaster for the Conservatives.
Those Tories for Corbyn are going to very quiet when Momentum start turning their attention onto Tories.
http://www.conservativehome.com/video/2016/01/watch-hague-on-the-need-for-a-strong-opposition.html
Also Osborne has clearly tacked the party to the Left since Corbyn took charge in a desire to occupy the "space" vacated by mainstream Labour.
He thinks its a fantastic opportunity for strategic repositioning.
I think in reality it will be more about a string of base tactical choices that will amount to an intellectual political surrender and further hollow out the party over time through taking their own supporters for granted.
The world has changed so much since 97 - there are very few social conservatives anymore.
Edit: and the Osbo tack to the left occurred before Corbo was elected, no?
0 -
I don't know, some people who I would characterise as social conservatives vote Labour.Mortimer said:
Indeed - but I'm not sure many people would define themselves in those terms anymore - and, let's face it, they're not going to vote LD or Labour....TheScreamingEagles said:
I think the term social conservative means different things to different people.Mortimer said:
In reality it is more likely that the 'base tactical choices' are instead examples of repositioning the party to be more in line with the centrist electorate.Casino_Royale said:
It makes the Conservative government slack, lazy and complacent. That makes for bad government. If it continues for years, it will be toxic for the Tories, as William Hague says here:TheScreamingEagles said:
Me too.Casino_Royale said:
Count me out of that.TheScreamingEagles said:
A lot of PB Tories are still Corbyn cheerleaders.Mortimer said:Does Corbo even have any cheerleaders left on pb now?
I think he's a disaster for the Conservatives.
Those Tories for Corbyn are going to very quiet when Momentum start turning their attention onto Tories.
http://www.conservativehome.com/video/2016/01/watch-hague-on-the-need-for-a-strong-opposition.html
Also Osborne has clearly tacked the party to the Left since Corbyn took charge in a desire to occupy the "space" vacated by mainstream Labour.
He thinks its a fantastic opportunity for strategic repositioning.
I think in reality it will be more about a string of base tactical choices that will amount to an intellectual political surrender and further hollow out the party over time through taking their own supporters for granted.
The world has changed so much since 97 - there are very few social conservatives anymore.
Edit: and the Osbo tack to the left occurred before Corbo was elected, no?0 -
UKIP keeps hitting 16% in these polls. I thought they were supposed to be on a downward trajectory?0
-
The Mail have the story on their website now:TheScreamingEagles said:Please Mail on Sunday publish your damn poll, so I can write the morning thread and go to bed.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3402917/EU-shock-vote-storms-six-cent-ahead-wake-Paris-massacre-Cologne-sex-attacks-migrant-crisis.html0 -
I'd prefer a good political operator in my party rather than a crap one. Oh to have someone of the dazzling compentence and insight of Seumas Milne Milne in the tory party eh?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Osbourne - the ultimate political operatorTheScreamingEagles said:
Lord Hague is right.Casino_Royale said:
It makes the Conservative government slack, lazy and complacent. That makes for bad government. If it continues for years, it will be toxic for the Tories, as William Hague says here:TheScreamingEagles said:
Me too.Casino_Royale said:
Count me out of that.TheScreamingEagles said:
A lot of PB Tories are still Corbyn cheerleaders.Mortimer said:Does Corbo even have any cheerleaders left on pb now?
I think he's a disaster for the Conservatives.
Those Tories for Corbyn are going to very quiet when Momentum start turning their attention onto Tories.
http://www.conservativehome.com/video/2016/01/watch-hague-on-the-need-for-a-strong-opposition.html
Also Osborne has clearly tacked the party to the Left since Corbyn took charge in a desire to occupy the "space" vacated by mainstream Labour.
He thinks its a fantastic opportunity for strategic repositioning.
I think in reality it will be more about a string of base tactical choices that will amount to an intellectual political surrender and further hollow out the party over time through taking their own supporters for granted.
Personally I think Osborne sees this as an opportunity to destroy Labour, which isn't an ignoble thing.0 -
Please, I am not accusing anyone of anything. My wife was a copper, nearly thirty years ago the police had a new pay arrangement imposed on them under which for certain ranks the entitlement to overtime payment, which was for many a big earner, was removed in return for an increase of about 10% (I can't remember the exact figure) in basic pay. In recent years military pay and conditions have also been changed, more than once, to the great detriment of the service personnel (as at least one contributor to this site will attest). So what is going on in the NHS is certainly not unique.foxinsoxuk said:
As an ex-military man, surely you would understand that if the government cut military pay while increasing overseas deployments then a fair number would not re-enlist, and that others would change career. It would affect recruitment too. Soldiers, sailors and airmen are expensive to train too. The same principle applies. I would not accuse them of being un-patriotic.
I might also mention that for some military posts if the person leaves early they do so with a bill for a portion of their training.
My point is not that you are wrong or that junior doctors are guilty of anything. Just that the country cannot and will not accept doctors going on strike. These strikes, especially if followed by others in the near to medium term (as per your suggestion), will lead to changes that will have more drastic effects on doctors terms and conditions than they are thinking of at the moment and will change the NHS.
I think that very sad.0 -
Right wing dimwits can invent 10 new prejudices before breakfast.MarqueeMark said:
Has Osborne shown any appetite for invading the Middle East?Casino_Royale said:
No one can deny that Osborne wants to be precisely like Blair.surbiton said:
Cameron commands the centre ground, like Blair. No one can deny that.kle4 said:
If that were the case why didn't people vote for the real thing?PClipp said:
Rubbish, Mr Eagles! Labour did it all by themselves.TheScreamingEagles said:
So feeble, he's driven Labour insane and wiped out the Lib Dems.PClipp said:Is that all that Cameron`s great renegotiation ploy consists of?
It seems to me that Cameron is the most feeble prime minister we have had since Neville Chamberlain.
Just imagine what he would have achieved if he wasn't feeble.
As for the Lib Dems, Cameron was so feeble that the people at the top of the Lib Dems actually trusted him! From the beginning, Cameron was a broken reed. What the Tories had to do was import a rottweiler from abroad and give him a knighthood. Crosby won the last election for the Tories (albeit with under 25% of the registered voters). Cameron just dithered around, pretending to be a Lib Dem.
Look, Cameron has his flaws, and I was among those who voted LD, but the idea Cameron is self evidently terrible loser who, to see you explain it, contributed pretty much nothing to his own victory, relying instead on the people being idiots (which is your implication in that Crosby must have tricked the people into voting Cameron, and that they only voted Cameron for acting like a LD, despite LDs being on the ballot), is pretty absurd.
I actually think there is something in the point that Cameron's apparent comfort in coalition made some people, particularly in the SW, think he was more acceptable to vote for than previous Tories, but you don't get as big a lead in the votes as he did purely on the opposition being crap and through tricks (and yes, I know it wasn't so big a lead given how small a parliamentary majority it is, but is still a lot more votes)
0 -
Ought to, but I was thinking relative to how bad people say he will be electorally on their prospects. Losing those seats might well augur very poorly for them, but as a number it doesn't sound catastrophic, and can be spun.david_herdson said:
Given that Labour lost the last general election, they really ought to be making gains at interim elections if they want to be on track for the big one.kle4 said:
As much as we'd expect the opposition to be doing much better in the polling at this point, I can kind of see why a Corbynista, in between ridiculing polling (not that just Corbynistas are doing that) saying, 'see, no worse than Ed M, you're being ridiculous, now give it time'. We cling to what we can.TheScreamingEagles said:Survation Westminster VI
Con 37% (nc) Lab: 30% (nc) UKIP: 16% (nc) Lib Dem: 7% (+1) Greens 3% (nc)
If Lab lose sub 100 seats in May, presumably that'd be a great result for Corbyn?
0 -
Two different things:kle4 said:
Ought to, but I was thinking relative to how bad people say he will be electorally on their prospects. Losing those seats might well augur very poorly for them, but as a number it doesn't sound catastrophic, and can be spun.david_herdson said:
Given that Labour lost the last general election, they really ought to be making gains at interim elections if they want to be on track for the big one.kle4 said:
As much as we'd expect the opposition to be doing much better in the polling at this point, I can kind of see why a Corbynista, in between ridiculing polling (not that just Corbynistas are doing that) saying, 'see, no worse than Ed M, you're being ridiculous, now give it time'. We cling to what we can.TheScreamingEagles said:Survation Westminster VI
Con 37% (nc) Lab: 30% (nc) UKIP: 16% (nc) Lib Dem: 7% (+1) Greens 3% (nc)
If Lab lose sub 100 seats in May, presumably that'd be a great result for Corbyn?
bad as in augurs badly for 2020
bad as in misses immediate expectations, so fuels Corbyn-must-go0 -
For Fuck's sake.AndyJS said:
The Mail have the story on their website now:TheScreamingEagles said:Please Mail on Sunday publish your damn poll, so I can write the morning thread and go to bed.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3402917/EU-shock-vote-storms-six-cent-ahead-wake-Paris-massacre-Cologne-sex-attacks-migrant-crisis.html
I had written a thread for tomorrow afternoon saying Michael Gove should be the man to lead Leave.
From that article
Cabinet heavyweight Michael Gove has become the latest Tory eurosceptic to snub the campaign for Britain to quit the EU.
Three years ago Justice Secretary Mr Gove said that he would vote to cut Britain’s ties with Brussels. Now he has decided to support David Cameron and campaign to stay in.
His U-turn mirrors similar somersaults by Conservative Eurosceptics Philip Hammond and William Hague. And it is a setback to the ‘Leave’ campaign, which wanted to make use of Mr Gove’s formidable debating skills.
0 -
Do individual hospitals deliver worse outcomes or is it the unequal coverage of healthcare which produces that? Are you seriously saying that the NHS has nothing to learn from anything in the whole of the States? Or, one suspects from that attitude, anywhere.Chris_A said:
His latest nonsense is that we can be all like a hospital in Seattle using work practices modeled on Toyota. This is a hospital with a greater than 1 doctor per patient ratio. And let it not be forgotten the US system is twice as expensive as ours and delivers worse outcomes. Yet this blithering idiot wishes us to follow them. Words fail me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
While I agree with your some of your comments the Health Secretary's first duty is patients well being and to take on vested interests within the NHS in the wider goodChris_A said:They need to get rid of Hunt well before the Autumn. Even if the doctors' dispute is settled Hunt is toxic to any NHS worker. We know he's prepared to scheme and lie and play politics rather than work for the NHS.
0 -
No problems with the Conservatives having a good political operator in its ranks. I just wish it wasn't the Chancellor. A post that has more important things to worry about.flightpath01 said:
I'd prefer a good political operator in my party rather than a crap one. Oh to have someone of the dazzling compentence and insight of Seumas Milne Milne in the tory party eh?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Osbourne - the ultimate political operatorTheScreamingEagles said:
Lord Hague is right.Casino_Royale said:
It makes the Conservative government slack, lazy and complacent. That makes for bad government. If it continues for years, it will be toxic for the Tories, as William Hague says here:TheScreamingEagles said:
Me too.Casino_Royale said:
Count me out of that.TheScreamingEagles said:
A lot of PB Tories are still Corbyn cheerleaders.Mortimer said:Does Corbo even have any cheerleaders left on pb now?
I think he's a disaster for the Conservatives.
Those Tories for Corbyn are going to very quiet when Momentum start turning their attention onto Tories.
http://www.conservativehome.com/video/2016/01/watch-hague-on-the-need-for-a-strong-opposition.html
Also Osborne has clearly tacked the party to the Left since Corbyn took charge in a desire to occupy the "space" vacated by mainstream Labour.
He thinks its a fantastic opportunity for strategic repositioning.
I think in reality it will be more about a string of base tactical choices that will amount to an intellectual political surrender and further hollow out the party over time through taking their own supporters for granted.
Personally I think Osborne sees this as an opportunity to destroy Labour, which isn't an ignoble thing.0 -
So it's got to be the AV thread instead?TheScreamingEagles said:
For Fuck's sake.AndyJS said:
The Mail have the story on their website now:TheScreamingEagles said:Please Mail on Sunday publish your damn poll, so I can write the morning thread and go to bed.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3402917/EU-shock-vote-storms-six-cent-ahead-wake-Paris-massacre-Cologne-sex-attacks-migrant-crisis.html
I had written a thread for tomorrow afternoon saying Michael Gove should be the man to lead Leave.
From that article
Cabinet heavyweight Michael Gove has become the latest Tory eurosceptic to snub the campaign for Britain to quit the EU.
Three years ago Justice Secretary Mr Gove said that he would vote to cut Britain’s ties with Brussels. Now he has decided to support David Cameron and campaign to stay in.
His U-turn mirrors similar somersaults by Conservative Eurosceptics Philip Hammond and William Hague. And it is a setback to the ‘Leave’ campaign, which wanted to make use of Mr Gove’s formidable debating skills.0
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