politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Farage’s ratings tumble could impact on who runs the LEAVE
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There are some very good Labour councils run by talented, thoughtful, pragmatic Labour groups, and Oldham looks to be one of them. There are others that are rotten boroughs, though. There are similarly a fair few piss poor Tory monoliths. FPTP has plenty to answer for.
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Why blame FPTP when its the same in any nation under any democratic system (or none).SouthamObserver said:There are some very good Labour councils run by talented, thoughtful, pragmatic Labour groups, and Oldham looks to be one of them. There are others that are rotten boroughs, though. There are similarly a fair few piss poor Tory monoliths. FPTP has plenty to answer for.
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True, but he had serious control of the PLP, which Corbyn clearly lacksdavid_herdson said:Brown lasted through to the scheduled date of the election, two and a half years later.
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It was a funny day and you have to wonder why Corbyn selected the shadow cabinet he did in the first place.Scott_P said:The election that never was marked the beginning of the end for Gordo.
Will the reshuffle that never was do the same for Jezza?
To go into it with the well trailed notion of moving or sacking Benn and end it after hours and hours with nothing happening, well it screams mass incompetence and total lack of that important quality 'judgement'.
The likely consequences of sacking Benn must have been well know yet the Corbynites (this is not just about Corbyn) seemed quite unprepared for them.
If Eagles allows herself to be moved then it says little for her, even if she was an unlikely Shadow Defence minister in the first place. Where could she go for somewhere comparable (who would be pushed out?), and she is also shadow first secretary of state - or has everyone forgotten?0 -
One could be forgiven for thinking that many of staff believe that the NHS is run for their benefit, rather than the patients. The latest bout of whining from privileged Junior Doctors merely confirms that.Mortimer said:Hunt is being very measured and expressing surprise at the Junior docs walking out.
Meanwhile, Docs are talking to themselves on fb.
This might, finally, make the public realise that the staff in the NHS are often part of the problem with it.0 -
So Jezza the Menace just got beaten up by Softy Walter?0
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I have been saying for a while that Labour is an idea whose time has gone. Now a fair few of you are agreeing, so I want to advance a further proposition: Parliamentary democracy, too, is an idea whose time has gone. Like Labour, it requires the principal source of political cleavage to be economic. And that is no longer so. People obsess about identity issues (as, indeed, they always have in Ireland) whilst power is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands.0
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I'm not convinced Corbyn's position is any less secure after yesterday. His supporters in the membership are likely to see it as right-wing press + irridentist Blairites gang up on Jezza. They'll abandon him if he does something they disapprove of. In this case he's trying to do what they want and is being thwarted. They'll double down.
As to process crapness, they'll overlook that entirely. MSM propaganda. Or something.0 -
Bigger issue is that he seems to have no leadership skills whatsoever, lurching from shambles to shambles.SouthamObserver said:
I agree with that. My beef is with people such as NickP who believe that a hard-leftist such as Jeremy Corbyn is the solution and see him as an innocent naïf intent on only doing good and promoting discussion when he has spent 30 years hanging out with apologists for terrorism and has surrounded himself since becoming leader with anti-Western advisers who actively campaigned against Labour in the not-too-distant past.rottenborough said:
I'm sure Nick will pop up at some point and add his two pence worth, but I seem to recall that he was also saying that Labour members, like himself, were also sick of the splitting the difference/triangulation of modern labour politics. Non-Corbynites in Labour need to think about this one a lot. Can they come up with new policies that change UK and attract people but are not 1970s rehashed state controlled nonsense nor a lot of triangulation?SouthamObserver said:@AlastairMeeks - "My impression is that some Corbynites are reluctantly concluding that Jeremy Corbyn has too much baggage to succeed and will need to make way in a while for a new leader who embodies the new values without the awkward history. He may not last as long as is conventionally thought if that view takes hold."
It's an interesting one. There are two kinds of Corbynite - the hard leftists, such as Livingstone, Abbott and McDonnell (and Corbyn himself) who see him as a means to take Labour over, and the wide-eyed useful idiots who see him much as NickP does, a doe-eyed, gentle man of principle who wants only to bring a kinder, gentler form of politics to Labour and the UK generally. There are a lot more of the latter than the former, so that is where the battle has to be fought. Hence the reluctance of people like Hillary Ben just to walk away.0 -
And quite a few northern labour councillors are quite appreciative of Osborne andSouthamObserver said:There are some very good Labour councils run by talented, thoughtful, pragmatic Labour groups, and Oldham looks to be one of them. There are others that are rotten boroughs, though. There are similarly a fair few piss poor Tory monoliths. FPTP has plenty to answer for.
1) his northern powerhouse and
2) his proposals for greater devolution of local authority and NHS powers0 -
Night of the fish-knives !Plato_Says said:Lolz
.@MattChorley off to a flying start as @timesredbox supremo https://t.co/aURpPqhhkB0 -
Jezza will stand up to big business, vested interests, capitalist exploitation, Tory warmongers and media barons...Wanderer said:I'm not convinced Corbyn's position is any less secure after yesterday. His supporters in the membership are likely to see it as right-wing press + irridentist Blairites gang up on Jezza. They'll abandon him if he does something they disapprove of. In this case he's trying to do what they want and is being thwarted. They'll double down.
As to process crapness, they'll overlook that entirely. MSM propaganda. Or something.
...just not his Shadow cabinet.0 -
Mr. G, similar happened under Brown, though he (unreasonably) still was considered by many to be economically competent/a strong leader.
Unless you're a Corbynite, I can't see the positive of Corbyn. What's the selling point?0 -
Jeremy Corbyn has some resemblances to George Lansbury.
The resemblance that for me is stronger, however, is to a leader of another party: Andrew Bonar Law. The backwoodsmen imposed an old codger on the great and the good of the party after having insisted on a direction that the great thinkers strongly disagreed with. The grandees sat on their hands and the party was taken over by the plebs. The new leader himself turned out to be temporary but the takeover was permanent.0 -
The starting point on the radical left on foreign policy has always been a scepticism about the splendours of the Western alliance and a willingness to give a sympathetic hearing to Third World people with a grievance - it goes right back to people like Nehru and Nkrumah and the elusive and ultimately unsuccessful search for a credible global third way. It doesn't mean they necessarily agree with them, and Corbyn has said repeatedly that he disagrees with Hamas and Hezbollah. (In some cases it extended to sympathy for Soviet communism, which isn't one of the things that Corbyn has ever nourished.)SouthamObserver said:
I agree with that. My beef is with people such as NickP who believe that a hard-leftist such as Jeremy Corbyn is the solution and see him as an innocent naïf intent on only doing good and promoting discussion when he has spent 30 years hanging out with apologists for terrorism and has surrounded himself since becoming leader with anti-Western advisers who actively campaigned against Labour in the not-too-distant past.
You've consistently seen this as entirely beyond the pale and it seems to be the touchstone for you, much more than say the anti-austerity policies. I don't (and I see the Western alliance historically as necessary in e.g. Korea but not a consistent force for good), and see your preoccupation with this aspect as a bit obsessive, though I do see that it produces a history with contacts that are awkward if you suddenly become party leader. Perhaps that, more than naivete, is the area where we differ?
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HisMorris_Dancer said:I can't see the positive of Corbyn. What's the selling point?
I never planned to reshuffle Benn anywayauthenticity0 -
Mr. Palmer, do you agree with Corbyn that we should negotiate with Daesh/ISIS?0
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He did, though not necessarily his cabinet. His position would have become untenable had D Miliband gone at the same time as Purnell - though DM would have been damaged too by such a political and self-serving resignation (which is why I think he was right not to).Scott_P said:
True, but he had serious control of the PLP, which Corbyn clearly lacksdavid_herdson said:Brown lasted through to the scheduled date of the election, two and a half years later.
However, Brown was a careerist politician in a way that Corbyn isn't; Brown was ready to stand down if his leadership was clearly too damaging to Labour. I'm not sure that Corbyn would be; he strikes me as a last-ditcher in that respect. The amount of damage that the shadow cabinet or PLP would have to indirectly do to the party in removing Corbyn would be immense, which is what the Corbynites will be banking on.0 -
I see that Farage is planning a career in TV when he finally loses the EU referendum.Richard_Tyndall said:I have long thought that Farage is the wrong person to lead the out campaign. Indeed my sole article for PB to date was about this very point. I have seen nothing in recent months to make me change my mind about this. UKIP may be a significant force but they still only got 12% of the vote. Yes that is a great achievement but it is still 38% short of what they need to win a referendum.
Those 12% will almost certainly all vote out anyway no matter who leads the campaign so the trick for Leave has to be to pick a figurehead who can appeal to a wider audience. Farage, for all his speaking ability, has too much baggage and cannot be that person.
Incidently I see that 6 more of the 2015 new Tory intake have said they will campaign to Leave over the last 24 hours.0 -
While Jeremy continues to be a really top bloke the junior doctors are being shafted by the egregious Jeremy Hunt without a single word from the opposition. It's just pathetic self indulgence. I also want a Labour leader with principles but I also want one who does his jobrottenborough said:
I'm sure Nick will pop up at some point and add his two pence worth, but I seem to recall that he was also saying that Labour members, like himself, were also sick of the splitting the difference/triangulation of modern labour politics. Non-Corbynites in Labour need to think about this one a lot. Can they come up with new policies that change UK and attract people but are not 1970s rehashed state controlled nonsense nor a lot of triangulation?SouthamObserver said:@AlastairMeeks - "My impression is that some Corbynites are reluctantly concluding that Jeremy Corbyn has too much baggage to succeed and will need to make way in a while for a new leader who embodies the new values without the awkward history. He may not last as long as is conventionally thought if that view takes hold."
It's an interesting one. There are two kinds of Corbynite - the hard leftists, such as Livingstone, Abbott and McDonnell (and Corbyn himself) who see him as a means to take Labour over, and the wide-eyed useful idiots who see him much as NickP does, a doe-eyed, gentle man of principle who wants only to bring a kinder, gentler form of politics to Labour and the UK generally. There are a lot more of the latter than the former, so that is where the battle has to be fought. Hence the reluctance of people like Hillary Ben just to walk away.0 -
The amount of damage being done to the Party by not removing Corbyn is immense.david_herdson said:The amount of damage that the shadow cabinet or PLP would have to indirectly do to the party in removing Corbyn would be immense, which is what the Corbynites will be banking on.
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Even if one accepts your contention, which I don't, the conclusion doesn't necessarily follow - though you could argue that it would follow that FPTP is an idea whose time has gone and that multiple identity-based politics would of necessity imply PR.Innocent_Abroad said:I have been saying for a while that Labour is an idea whose time has gone. Now a fair few of you are agreeing, so I want to advance a further proposition: Parliamentary democracy, too, is an idea whose time has gone. Like Labour, it requires the principal source of political cleavage to be economic. And that is no longer so. People obsess about identity issues (as, indeed, they always have in Ireland) whilst power is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands.
But I don't agree with the original point: representative democracy has overcome any number of social and political changes over the centuries.0 -
@PolhomeEditor: Ken Livingstone hits out at those those speculating that Hilary Benn would be sacked ... like Ken Livingstone https://t.co/PX8vzcXvfn0
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CarlMaxim
RESHUFFLE LATEST: Hilary Benn won't be sacked, although he will be asked to start smoking a pipe and change his name to Tony.0 -
I'd be interested if you can furnish even one instance (let alone repeatedly) where Corbyn has disagreed with his "friends" in Hamas and Hezbollah? When and where has he publicy criticised them?NickPalmer said:
The starting point on the radical left on foreign policy has always been a scepticism about the splendours of the Western alliance and a willingness to give a sympathetic hearing to Third World people with a grievance - it goes right back to people like Nehru and Nkrumah and the elusive and ultimately unsuccessful search for a credible global third way. It doesn't mean they necessarily agree with them, and Corbyn has said repeatedly that he disagrees with Hamas and Hezbollah. (In some cases it extended to sympathy for Soviet communism, which isn't one of the things that Corbyn has ever nourished.)SouthamObserver said:
I agree with that. My beef is with people such as NickP who believe that a hard-leftist such as Jeremy Corbyn is the solution and see him as an innocent naïf intent on only doing good and promoting discussion when he has spent 30 years hanging out with apologists for terrorism and has surrounded himself since becoming leader with anti-Western advisers who actively campaigned against Labour in the not-too-distant past.
You've consistently seen this as entirely beyond the pale and it seems to be the touchstone for you, much more than say the anti-austerity policies. I don't (and I see the Western alliance historically as necessary in e.g. Korea but not a consistent force for good), and see your preoccupation with this aspect as a bit obsessive, though I do see that it produces a history with contacts that are awkward if you suddenly become party leader. Perhaps that, more than naivete, is the area where we differ?
Or does this fall into your 'he was only having a peaceful dialogue with the IRA" category?0 -
As someone on Twitter observed "Jeremy Corbyn is pretty crap at arm-wrestling"Scott_P said:
Jezza will stand up to big business, vested interests, capitalist exploitation, Tory warmongers and media barons...Wanderer said:I'm not convinced Corbyn's position is any less secure after yesterday. His supporters in the membership are likely to see it as right-wing press + irridentist Blairites gang up on Jezza. They'll abandon him if he does something they disapprove of. In this case he's trying to do what they want and is being thwarted. They'll double down.
As to process crapness, they'll overlook that entirely. MSM propaganda. Or something.
...just not his Shadow cabinet.0 -
Not many have a nut driving themdr_spyn said:
Quite a few cars have a locking nut.JosiasJessop said:
A side issue to this: are there any data protection issues to Volvo releasing such information to the Mirror ? I'm slightly surprised they did so.dr_spyn said:Via a Guido poster, Mr Farage appears to have a Volvo with self unlocking nuts.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farages-volvo-hadnt-been-7115944#
The Mirror is now claiming that the car hadn't been recalled.
....
Volvo now deny that the car was one that should have been recalled. But frankly given the VW crisis and other recall scandals I'm not sure they know themselves. How long can you drive without knowing you have 4 nuts loose?0 -
@BBCNormanS: Slow burn alert. Corbyn team warn he has to prepare for Commons EU statement this afternoon. So #reshuffle cd drift on #Godot0
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You wonder how Jeremy Corbyn would get on with decision-making when time was critical.0
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Last ShCab appts went on and on and finally forced when a Commons debate requiring a spokesbod was imminent. I think one was apptd with about 30 mins to spare. No doubt, it'll be the same this afternoon.AlastairMeeks said:
You wonder how Jeremy Corbyn would get on with decision-making when time was critical.
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Regarding the first point, I think it's possible (I won't say likely) that the Labour Party in headed for the exit. I don't think that's true of the centre-left itself. It's in a bad place now, all over Europe, but I wouldn't bet against a social-democrat resurgence in ten or twenty years. By resurgence I mean not just scraping back into office but rediscovering its intellectual dynamism and purpose.Innocent_Abroad said:I have been saying for a while that Labour is an idea whose time has gone. Now a fair few of you are agreeing, so I want to advance a further proposition: Parliamentary democracy, too, is an idea whose time has gone. Like Labour, it requires the principal source of political cleavage to be economic. And that is no longer so. People obsess about identity issues (as, indeed, they always have in Ireland) whilst power is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands.
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Cameron announcing ministers can campaign for Leave0
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How many centuries have we had representative democracy? Less than one, surely?david_herdson said:
Even if one accepts your contention, which I don't, the conclusion doesn't necessarily follow - though you could argue that it would follow that FPTP is an idea whose time has gone and that multiple identity-based politics would of necessity imply PR.Innocent_Abroad said:I have been saying for a while that Labour is an idea whose time has gone. Now a fair few of you are agreeing, so I want to advance a further proposition: Parliamentary democracy, too, is an idea whose time has gone. Like Labour, it requires the principal source of political cleavage to be economic. And that is no longer so. People obsess about identity issues (as, indeed, they always have in Ireland) whilst power is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands.
But I don't agree with the original point: representative democracy has overcome any number of social and political changes over the centuries.
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NPs meanderings are a clear example of why Labour should not be let anywhere near government. They are a shambles and there are going to be increasingly fewer even remotely sane representatives of this shambles available to elect. Lets face it, after his recent revelations, no one in their right mind would elect NP.JohnO said:
I'd be interested if you can furnish even one instance (let alone repeatedly) where Corbyn has disagreed with his "friends" in Hamas and Hezbollah? When and where has he publicy criticised them?NickPalmer said:
The starting point on the radical left on foreign policy has always been a scepticism about the splendours of the Western alliance and a willingness to give a sympathetic hearing to Third World people with a grievance - it goes right back to people like Nehru and Nkrumah and the elusive and ultimately unsuccessful search for a credible global third way. It doesn't mean they necessarily agree with them, and Corbyn has said repeatedly that he disagrees with Hamas and Hezbollah. (In some cases it extended to sympathy for Soviet communism, which isn't one of the things that Corbyn has ever nourished.)SouthamObserver said:
I agree with that. My beef is with people such as NickP who believe that a hard-leftist such as Jeremy Corbyn is the solution and see him as an innocent naïf intent on only doing good and promoting discussion when he has spent 30 years hanging out with apologists for terrorism and has surrounded himself since becoming leader with anti-Western advisers who actively campaigned against Labour in the not-too-distant past.
You've consistently seen this as entirely beyond the pale and it seems to be the touchstone for you, much more than say the anti-austerity policies. I don't (and I see the Western alliance historically as necessary in e.g. Korea but not a consistent force for good), and see your preoccupation with this aspect as a bit obsessive, though I do see that it produces a history with contacts that are awkward if you suddenly become party leader. Perhaps that, more than naivete, is the area where we differ?
Or does this fall into your 'he was only having a peaceful dialogue with the IRA" category?0 -
Very sensible and expected. Wanderer said:Cameron announcing ministers can campaign for Leave
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@SophyRidgeSky: Labour MPs are now expecting more of a jiggle than a shuffle #reshuffle0
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The only people being shafted in this NHS debacle are the doctorless patients..0
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Miss Plato, and a welcome contrast to Corbyn offering a free vote on Syria, then trying (and failing) to sack the man who had the temerity to express his view on the matter.0
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I don't wonder that much actually. I feel that I know.AlastairMeeks said:You wonder how Jeremy Corbyn would get on with decision-making when time was critical.
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The BBC - Harold Wilson David Cameron to announce that UK ministers will be allowed to campaign for either side ahead of the EU referendum0
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Well this is the point. UKIP are disheveled, skint and rudderless but polling in the high teens, despite everybody on pb telling us they're finished and Nigel is a liability.AndyJS said:
Let's not talk about the fact that UKIP polled 17% with YouGov yesterday, one of their best showings for a long time.SouthamObserver said:Poor old Nigel; first an assassination attempt and now this. How much can one man take before he breaks?
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Crisis averted. Mr Cameron for Labour Leader?TheScreamingEagles said:The BBC - Harold Wilson David Cameron to announce that UK ministers will be allowed to campaign for either side ahead of the EU referendum
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I wonder if Nick Palmer has his sights on being an MEP in a few years time. The Labour selectorate will be mightily appreciative of his conspicuous loyalty and fealty to Corbyn and will surely overlook his conspicuous loyalty and fealty to Tony Blair.flightpath01 said:
NPs meanderings are a clear example of why Labour should not be let anywhere near government. They are a shambles and there are going to be increasingly fewer even remotely sane representatives of this shambles available to elect. Lets face it, after his recent revelations, no one in their right mind would elect NP.JohnO said:
I'd be interested if you can furnish even one instance (let alone repeatedly) where Corbyn has disagreed with his "friends" in Hamas and Hezbollah? When and where has he publicy criticised them?NickPalmer said:
The starting point on the radical left on foreign policy has always been a scepticism about the splendours of the Western alliance and a willingness to give a sympathetic hearing to Third World people with a grievance - it goes right back to people like Nehru and Nkrumah and the elusive and ultimately unsuccessful search for a credible global third way. It doesn't mean they necessarily agree with them, and Corbyn has said repeatedly that he disagrees with Hamas and Hezbollah. (In some cases it extended to sympathy for Soviet communism, which isn't one of the things that Corbyn has ever nourished.)SouthamObserver said:
I agree with that. My beef is with people such as NickP who believe that a hard-leftist such as Jeremy Corbyn is the solution and see him as an innocent naïf intent on only doing good and promoting discussion when he has spent 30 years hanging out with apologists for terrorism and has surrounded himself since becoming leader with anti-Western advisers who actively campaigned against Labour in the not-too-distant past.
You've consistently seen this as entirely beyond the pale and it seems to be the touchstone for you, much more than say the anti-austerity policies. I don't (and I see the Western alliance historically as necessary in e.g. Korea but not a consistent force for good), and see your preoccupation with this aspect as a bit obsessive, though I do see that it produces a history with contacts that are awkward if you suddenly become party leader. Perhaps that, more than naivete, is the area where we differ?
Or does this fall into your 'he was only having a peaceful dialogue with the IRA" category?0 -
Mr. 63, I said the other day Corbyn presents UKIP with a window of opportunity, despite Farage.
The purples would still be better off if Farage toddled off.0 -
Pauly... Cameron is leading Labour already...by the nose..0
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So only 33% short of what they need to win a referendum.blackburn63 said:
Well this is the point. UKIP are disheveled, skint and rudderless but polling in the high teens, despite everybody on pb telling us they're finished and Nigel is a liability.AndyJS said:
Let's not talk about the fact that UKIP polled 17% with YouGov yesterday, one of their best showings for a long time.SouthamObserver said:Poor old Nigel; first an assassination attempt and now this. How much can one man take before he breaks?
As I said, I suspect just about every single one of those UKIP voters will vote leave no matter who is running the campaign. The trick will be to have a campaign leader who will appeal to the other 33% we need. Farage is not that man.0 -
The whip system makes for weak and lazy politicians, the Syria debate showed how parliament should be conducted. 90% of MPs are sales reps delivering a script and voting to order.Innocent_Abroad said:I have been saying for a while that Labour is an idea whose time has gone. Now a fair few of you are agreeing, so I want to advance a further proposition: Parliamentary democracy, too, is an idea whose time has gone. Like Labour, it requires the principal source of political cleavage to be economic. And that is no longer so. People obsess about identity issues (as, indeed, they always have in Ireland) whilst power is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands.
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If I may be allowed to answer: no.rottenborough said:
I'm sure Nick will pop up at some point and add his two pence worth, but I seem to recall that he was also saying that Labour members, like himself, were also sick of the splitting the difference/triangulation of modern labour politics. Non-Corbynites in Labour need to think about this one a lot. Can they come up with new policies that change UK and attract people but are not 1970s rehashed state controlled nonsense nor a lot of triangulation?SouthamObserver said:@AlastairMeeks - "My impression is that some Corbynites are reluctantly concluding that Jeremy Corbyn has too much baggage to succeed and will need to make way in a while for a new leader who embodies the new values without the awkward history. He may not last as long as is conventionally thought if that view takes hold."
It's an interesting one. There are two kinds of Corbynite - the hard leftists, such as Livingstone, Abbott and McDonnell (and Corbyn himself) who see him as a means to take Labour over, and the wide-eyed useful idiots who see him much as NickP does, a doe-eyed, gentle man of principle who wants only to bring a kinder, gentler form of politics to Labour and the UK generally. There are a lot more of the latter than the former, so that is where the battle has to be fought. Hence the reluctance of people like Hillary Ben just to walk away.
There is no harkback to the '70s but in a free-market capitalist-ish way that utilises the best bits of capitalism but is steeped in statist policy.
Get The F**k Real!
It is wishful thinking, fantasy, student politics. It's certainly not fit for adoption by HMO ffs.
I mean look at that picture of Jezza and the trains. "Cut fares, not staff". How does Jezza think that the railways are funded? (Ans: @JosiasJessop pls!)
It is a cosy, safe, impotent retreat from serious pragmatic politics. What a tragedy for Lab.
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BREAKING NEWS: Greek police believe they have captured Jihadi John trying to cross the sea from Turkey https://t.co/NqZZ8tyr4f
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Well, that's the first of my two assumptions fulfilled on why the Tories will not split post referendum.TheScreamingEagles said:The BBC - Harold Wilson David Cameron to announce that UK ministers will be allowed to campaign for either side ahead of the EU referendum
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Michael Dugher tweets
Just been sacked by Jeremy Corbyn. I wished him a happy new year.0 -
Huzzah.JohnO said:
Well, that's the first of my two assumptions fulfilled on why the Tories will not split post referendum.TheScreamingEagles said:The BBC - Harold Wilson David Cameron to announce that UK ministers will be allowed to campaign for either side ahead of the EU referendum
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Sky News: Dugher sacked.0
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For giggles, go back to the 70s. Wonder what Corbyns policy would have been on Pol Pot? - go look....flightpath01 said:
NPs meanderings are a clear example of why Labour should not be let anywhere near government. They are a shambles and there are going to be increasingly fewer even remotely sane representatives of this shambles available to elect. Lets face it, after his recent revelations, no one in their right mind would elect NP.JohnO said:
I'd be interested if you can furnish even one instance (let alone repeatedly) where Corbyn has disagreed with his "friends" in Hamas and Hezbollah? When and where has he publicy criticised them?NickPalmer said:
The starting point on the radical left on foreign policy has always been a scepticism about the splendours of the Western alliance and a willingness to give a sympathetic hearing to Third World people with a grievance - it goes right back to people like Nehru and Nkrumah and the elusive and ultimately unsuccessful search for a credible global third way. It doesn't mean they necessarily agree with them, and Corbyn has said repeatedly that he disagrees with Hamas and Hezbollah. (In some cases it extended to sympathy for Soviet communism, which isn't one of the things that Corbyn has ever nourished.)SouthamObserver said:
I agree with that. My beef is with people such as NickP who believe that a hard-leftist such as Jeremy Corbyn is the solution and see him as an innocent naïf intent on only doing good and promoting discussion when he has spent 30 years hanging out with apologists for terrorism and has surrounded himself since becoming leader with anti-Western advisers who actively campaigned against Labour in the not-too-distant past.
You've consistently seen this as entirely beyond the pale and it seems to be the touchstone for you, much more than say the anti-austerity policies. I don't (and I see the Western alliance historically as necessary in e.g. Korea but not a consistent force for good), and see your preoccupation with this aspect as a bit obsessive, though I do see that it produces a history with contacts that are awkward if you suddenly become party leader. Perhaps that, more than naivete, is the area where we differ?
Or does this fall into your 'he was only having a peaceful dialogue with the IRA" category?0 -
David Cameron didn't really have a choice on this. My only surprise is that he's conceded the point this early in the process. It suggests to me that the vote may well be sooner rather than later.JohnO said:
Well, that's the first of my two assumptions fulfilled on why the Tories will not split post referendum.TheScreamingEagles said:The BBC - Harold Wilson David Cameron to announce that UK ministers will be allowed to campaign for either side ahead of the EU referendum
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Finally something happened, I was beginning to lose interest.0
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And how many lives did that cost Germany Russia Japan Italy China? How many lives did it cost Europe in the 30 years war?Innocent_Abroad said:
How many centuries have we had representative democracy? Less than one, surely?david_herdson said:
Even if one accepts your contention, which I don't, the conclusion doesn't necessarily follow - though you could argue that it would follow that FPTP is an idea whose time has gone and that multiple identity-based politics would of necessity imply PR.Innocent_Abroad said:I have been saying for a while that Labour is an idea whose time has gone. Now a fair few of you are agreeing, so I want to advance a further proposition: Parliamentary democracy, too, is an idea whose time has gone. Like Labour, it requires the principal source of political cleavage to be economic. And that is no longer so. People obsess about identity issues (as, indeed, they always have in Ireland) whilst power is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands.
But I don't agree with the original point: representative democracy has overcome any number of social and political changes over the centuries.
How many lives has crass totalitarian non democratic dictatorship cost the world? Not to mention religious bigotry.0 -
Farage is actively repellent to a lot of people and will stop them giving Leave a hearing.Richard_Tyndall said:
So only 33% short of what they need to win a referendum.blackburn63 said:
Well this is the point. UKIP are disheveled, skint and rudderless but polling in the high teens, despite everybody on pb telling us they're finished and Nigel is a liability.AndyJS said:
Let's not talk about the fact that UKIP polled 17% with YouGov yesterday, one of their best showings for a long time.SouthamObserver said:Poor old Nigel; first an assassination attempt and now this. How much can one man take before he breaks?
As I said, I suspect just about every single one of those UKIP voters will vote leave no matter who is running the campaign. The trick will be to have a campaign leader who will appeal to the other 33% we need. Farage is not that man.
Who do you favour as Leavemeister?0 -
Indeed and I said as much in my post on the subject a couple of days back. And I agree with you on the timing of both.AlastairMeeks said:
David Cameron didn't really have a choice on this. My only surprise is that he's conceded the point this early in the process. It suggests to me that the vote may well be sooner rather than later.JohnO said:
Well, that's the first of my two assumptions fulfilled on why the Tories will not split post referendum.TheScreamingEagles said:The BBC - Harold Wilson David Cameron to announce that UK ministers will be allowed to campaign for either side ahead of the EU referendum
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Nobody in the referendum will see ukip on the ballot paper so your point is moot.Richard_Tyndall said:
So only 33% short of what they need to win a referendum.blackburn63 said:
Well this is the point. UKIP are disheveled, skint and rudderless but polling in the high teens, despite everybody on pb telling us they're finished and Nigel is a liability.AndyJS said:
Let's not talk about the fact that UKIP polled 17% with YouGov yesterday, one of their best showings for a long time.SouthamObserver said:Poor old Nigel; first an assassination attempt and now this. How much can one man take before he breaks?
As I said, I suspect just about every single one of those UKIP voters will vote leave no matter who is running the campaign. The trick will be to have a campaign leader who will appeal to the other 33% we need. Farage is not that man.
People are conflating ukip polling figures with the referendum which is silly. There is a visceral dislike on here for ukip (not from you Mr Tyndall) the amount of anti ukip/Nigel threads is amazing, but the support among the public is solid. It's not enough to win seats, and until the referendum is done and dusted the party itself will just stagger along, but under a new leadership team I'm convinced it will resurge.
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"In a few years time." Crikey ..... NP will be 66 in a month's time, when do you think he might consider retiring from public office and give the younger ones a chance?JohnO said:
I wonder if Nick Palmer has his sights on being an MEP in a few years time. The Labour selectorate will be mightily appreciative of his conspicuous loyalty and fealty to Corbyn and will surely overlook his conspicuous loyalty and fealty to Tony Blair.flightpath01 said:
NPs meanderings are a clear example of why Labour should not be let anywhere near government. They are a shambles and there are going to be increasingly fewer even remotely sane representatives of this shambles available to elect. Lets face it, after his recent revelations, no one in their right mind would elect NP.JohnO said:
I'd be interested if you can furnish even one instance (let alone repeatedly) where Corbyn has disagreed with his "friends" in Hamas and Hezbollah? When and where has he publicy criticised them?NickPalmer said:
The starting point on the radical left on foreign policy has always been a scepticism about the splendours of the Western alliance and a willingness to give a sympathetic hearing to Third World people with a grievance - it goes right back to people like Nehru and Nkrumah and the elusive and ultimately unsuccessful search for a credible global third way. It doesn't mean they necessarily agree with them, and Corbyn has said repeatedly that he disagrees with Hamas and Hezbollah. (In some cases it extended to sympathy for Soviet communism, which isn't one of the things that Corbyn has ever nourished.)SouthamObserver said:
I agree with that. My beef is with people such as NickP who believe that a hard-leftist such as Jeremy Corbyn is the solution and see him as an innocent naïf intent on only doing good and promoting discussion when he has spent 30 years hanging out with apologists for terrorism and has surrounded himself since becoming leader with anti-Western advisers who actively campaigned against Labour in the not-too-distant past.
You've consistently seen this as entirely beyond the pale and it seems to be the touchstone for you, much more than say the anti-austerity policies. I don't (and I see the Western alliance historically as necessary in e.g. Korea but not a consistent force for good), and see your preoccupation with this aspect as a bit obsessive, though I do see that it produces a history with contacts that are awkward if you suddenly become party leader. Perhaps that, more than naivete, is the area where we differ?
Or does this fall into your 'he was only having a peaceful dialogue with the IRA" category?0 -
This is tortuous.
Test match
Labour unshuffle0 -
Oh he wants to emulate that youngster Master Corbyn in every way.peter_from_putney said:
"In a few years time." Crikey ..... NP will be 66 in a month's time, when do you think he might consider retiring from public office and give the younger ones a chance?JohnO said:
I wonder if Nick Palmer has his sights on being an MEP in a few years time. The Labour selectorate will be mightily appreciative of his conspicuous loyalty and fealty to Corbyn and will surely overlook his conspicuous loyalty and fealty to Tony Blair.flightpath01 said:
NPs meanderings are a clear example of why Labour should not be let anywhere near government. They are a shambles and there are going to be increasingly fewer even remotely sane representatives of this shambles available to elect. Lets face it, after his recent revelations, no one in their right mind would elect NP.JohnO said:
I'd be interested if you can furnish even one instance (let alone repeatedly) where Corbyn has disagreed with his "friends" in Hamas and Hezbollah? When and where has he publicy criticised them?NickPalmer said:
The starting point on the radical left on foreign policy has always been a scepticism about the splendours of the Western alliance and a willingness to give a sympathetic hearing to Third World people with a grievance - it goes right back to people like Nehru and Nkrumah and the elusive and ultimately unsuccessful search for a credible global third way. It doesn't mean they necessarily agree with them, and Corbyn has said repeatedly that he disagrees with Hamas and Hezbollah. (In some cases it extended to sympathy for Soviet communism, which isn't one of the things that Corbyn has ever nourished.)SouthamObserver said:
I agree with that. My beef is with people such as NickP who believe that a hard-leftist such as Jeremy Corbyn is the solution and see him as an innocent naïf intent on only doing good and promoting discussion when he has spent 30 years hanging out with apologists for terrorism and has surrounded himself since becoming leader with anti-Western advisers who actively campaigned against Labour in the not-too-distant past.
You've consistently seen this as entirely beyond the pale and it seems to be the touchstone for you, much more than say the anti-austerity policies. I don't (and I see the Western alliance historically as necessary in e.g. Korea but not a consistent force for good), and see your preoccupation with this aspect as a bit obsessive, though I do see that it produces a history with contacts that are awkward if you suddenly become party leader. Perhaps that, more than naivete, is the area where we differ?
Or does this fall into your 'he was only having a peaceful dialogue with the IRA" category?0 -
In terms of time what is the least notice than can be given?AlastairMeeks said:
David Cameron didn't really have a choice on this. My only surprise is that he's conceded the point this early in the process. It suggests to me that the vote may well be sooner rather than later.JohnO said:
Well, that's the first of my two assumptions fulfilled on why the Tories will not split post referendum.TheScreamingEagles said:The BBC - Harold Wilson David Cameron to announce that UK ministers will be allowed to campaign for either side ahead of the EU referendum
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Regarding the junior doctors, there is no way they lose public sympathy. If there are deaths the Government will get the blame. In a doctors vs politicians dispute the public won't even give the latter the right to a hearing.
Any way to bet on this?0 -
The tories would be wise to leave their active support/opposition until there is something to talk or campaign about. They do have a country to govern.AlastairMeeks said:
David Cameron didn't really have a choice on this. My only surprise is that he's conceded the point this early in the process. It suggests to me that the vote may well be sooner rather than later.JohnO said:
Well, that's the first of my two assumptions fulfilled on why the Tories will not split post referendum.TheScreamingEagles said:The BBC - Harold Wilson David Cameron to announce that UK ministers will be allowed to campaign for either side ahead of the EU referendum
But surely in reality the fact the the EU know that there will be a serious campaign during this referendum ought to strengthen his hand.0 -
So how long before David Davis criticises and opposes Cameron's decision to give Ministers a free vote on the EU ref?0
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16 weeks. I'm expecting the least notice possible once David Cameron is ready.blackburn63 said:
In terms of time what is the least notice than can be given?AlastairMeeks said:
David Cameron didn't really have a choice on this. My only surprise is that he's conceded the point this early in the process. It suggests to me that the vote may well be sooner rather than later.JohnO said:
Well, that's the first of my two assumptions fulfilled on why the Tories will not split post referendum.TheScreamingEagles said:The BBC - Harold Wilson David Cameron to announce that UK ministers will be allowed to campaign for either side ahead of the EU referendum
One reason why David Cameron may well want to go early is that the Leave camps are squabbling for precedence and this is likely to continue for some time. Going later will give them more time to sort themselves out.0 -
Isn't there a formal campaign time scale legislated for? Several months IIRCJohnO said:
Indeed and I said as much in my post on the subject a couple of days back. And I agree with you on the timing of both.AlastairMeeks said:
David Cameron didn't really have a choice on this. My only surprise is that he's conceded the point this early in the process. It suggests to me that the vote may well be sooner rather than later.JohnO said:
Well, that's the first of my two assumptions fulfilled on why the Tories will not split post referendum.TheScreamingEagles said:The BBC - Harold Wilson David Cameron to announce that UK ministers will be allowed to campaign for either side ahead of the EU referendum
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Well, this is a Lib Dem run site - hardly the place for UKIPtastic enthusiasm...blackburn63 said:
Nobody in the referendum will see ukip on the ballot paper so your point is moot.Richard_Tyndall said:
So only 33% short of what they need to win a referendum.blackburn63 said:
Well this is the point. UKIP are disheveled, skint and rudderless but polling in the high teens, despite everybody on pb telling us they're finished and Nigel is a liability.AndyJS said:
Let's not talk about the fact that UKIP polled 17% with YouGov yesterday, one of their best showings for a long time.SouthamObserver said:Poor old Nigel; first an assassination attempt and now this. How much can one man take before he breaks?
As I said, I suspect just about every single one of those UKIP voters will vote leave no matter who is running the campaign. The trick will be to have a campaign leader who will appeal to the other 33% we need. Farage is not that man.
People are conflating ukip polling figures with the referendum which is silly. There is a visceral dislike on here for ukip (not from you Mr Tyndall) the amount of anti ukip/Nigel threads is amazing, but the support among the public is solid. It's not enough to win seats, and until the referendum is done and dusted the party itself will just stagger along, but under a new leadership team I'm convinced it will resurge.
UKIP need to make the jump from protest party to effective political party. Without that they will not make the jump to getting lots of MPs.
This doesn't, as some seem to believe, mean compromising principles or become New Labour. It does mean building an effective political organisation, creating a real ground game etc.
Given that Labour is desperately trying to give political power away, especially in the North, it is very, very rude of UKIP to not oblige.0 -
I confidently predict the referendum will be in June as Mike will be on holiday then.0
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So now Ministers can campaign for Leave - which ones will?0
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Thank you.AlastairMeeks said:
16 weeks. I'm expecting the least notice possible once David Cameron is ready.blackburn63 said:
In terms of time what is the least notice than can be given?AlastairMeeks said:
David Cameron didn't really have a choice on this. My only surprise is that he's conceded the point this early in the process. It suggests to me that the vote may well be sooner rather than later.JohnO said:
Well, that's the first of my two assumptions fulfilled on why the Tories will not split post referendum.TheScreamingEagles said:The BBC - Harold Wilson David Cameron to announce that UK ministers will be allowed to campaign for either side ahead of the EU referendum
One reason why David Cameron may well want to go early is that the Leave camps are squabbling for precedence and this is likely to continue for some time. Going later will give them more time to sort themselves out.
I'm interested to know which f the Leave groups become official and when, from what I gather Vote Leave is working closely with all, Leave.Eu isn't.
My instinct is Cameron will delay as long as possible.
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Public support is solid but so is public loathing.blackburn63 said:
Nobody in the referendum will see ukip on the ballot paper so your point is moot.Richard_Tyndall said:
So only 33% short of what they need to win a referendum.blackburn63 said:
Well this is the point. UKIP are disheveled, skint and rudderless but polling in the high teens, despite everybody on pb telling us they're finished and Nigel is a liability.AndyJS said:
Let's not talk about the fact that UKIP polled 17% with YouGov yesterday, one of their best showings for a long time.SouthamObserver said:Poor old Nigel; first an assassination attempt and now this. How much can one man take before he breaks?
As I said, I suspect just about every single one of those UKIP voters will vote leave no matter who is running the campaign. The trick will be to have a campaign leader who will appeal to the other 33% we need. Farage is not that man.
People are conflating ukip polling figures with the referendum which is silly. There is a visceral dislike on here for ukip (not from you Mr Tyndall) the amount of anti ukip/Nigel threads is amazing, but the support among the public is solid. It's not enough to win seats, and until the referendum is done and dusted the party itself will just stagger along, but under a new leadership team I'm convinced it will resurge.
I am more bullish about Leave than most people but even I think that Remain is in good shape if Farage is the face of Leave. Too many uncommitted/undecided people will say "Christ, not that pillock" and switch off.0 -
On Sunday Michael Dugher said a reshuffle could turn Labour into a “religious cult” https://t.co/KcsRAfgjQc https://t.co/fKY0fDDqep0
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@Pwebstertimes: sacking of @MichaelDugher is one that Corbyn may live to regret. more dangerous out than in IMHO0
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lolTheScreamingEagles said:So how long before David Davis criticises and opposes Cameron's decision to give Ministers a free vote on the EU ref?
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Hey JC, JC! Won't you smile at me?Plato_Says said:On Sunday Michael Dugher said a reshuffle could turn Labour into a “religious cult” https://t.co/KcsRAfgjQc https://t.co/fKY0fDDqep
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I wonder how many 'don't blame me I voted for davis' t shirts Guido still has?TheScreamingEagles said:So how long before David Davis criticises and opposes Cameron's decision to give Ministers a free vote on the EU ref?
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@theobertram: Live score:
Islington 1. The North 0.0 -
I hate the use of "kindly" when what is meant is "please".foxinsoxuk said:http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/04/indian-english-phrases-indianisms-english-americanisms-vocabulary?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Following on from last nights discussion of accents and dialect, this is an interesting article on Indian Idioms. I have had many letters asking me to "do the needful".
English is an evolving languge, and an increasingly international one.
And the other one that's creeping into business communication, on a customer/supplier basis, is "please may you...". No. I can or I can't. This is, I know, a hyper-correction from people who've had it drilled into them at school to ask "may I go to the toilet?" but still.0 -
The most noticeable subsample yesterday was the >60 demographic.blackburn63 said:
Well this is the point. UKIP are disheveled, skint and rudderless but polling in the high teens, despite everybody on pb telling us they're finished and Nigel is a liability.AndyJS said:
Let's not talk about the fact that UKIP polled 17% with YouGov yesterday, one of their best showings for a long time.SouthamObserver said:Poor old Nigel; first an assassination attempt and now this. How much can one man take before he breaks?
UKIP were eight points ahead of Labour. The 60+ battle is becoming Tory v UKIP.
It may be that Labour are being written out of the contest. How can Labour ever hope to win when they have toxic leadership with the people most likely to vote?
The same thing may be happening in Scotland where the Tories may emerge as the main opposition to the SNP, with Labour written out.0 -
Picking up on your last line, that's what people keep saying, and I keep telling them that the infrastructure and resources within the party are minimal/non-existent.Malmesbury said:
Well, this is a Lib Dem run site - hardly the place for UKIPtastic enthusiasm...blackburn63 said:
Nobody in the referendum will see ukip on the ballot paper so your point is moot.Richard_Tyndall said:
So only 33% short of what they need to win a referendum.blackburn63 said:
Well this is the point. UKIP are disheveled, skint and rudderless but polling in the high teens, despite everybody on pb telling us they're finished and Nigel is a liability.AndyJS said:
Let's not talk about the fact that UKIP polled 17% with YouGov yesterday, one of their best showings for a long time.SouthamObserver said:Poor old Nigel; first an assassination attempt and now this. How much can one man take before he breaks?
As I said, I suspect just about every single one of those UKIP voters will vote leave no matter who is running the campaign. The trick will be to have a campaign leader who will appeal to the other 33% we need. Farage is not that man.
People are conflating ukip polling figures with the referendum which is silly. There is a visceral dislike on here for ukip (not from you Mr Tyndall) the amount of anti ukip/Nigel threads is amazing, but the support among the public is solid. It's not enough to win seats, and until the referendum is done and dusted the party itself will just stagger along, but under a new leadership team I'm convinced it will resurge.
UKIP need to make the jump from protest party to effective political party. Without that they will not make the jump to getting lots of MPs.
This doesn't, as some seem to believe, mean compromising principles or become New Labour. It does mean building an effective political organisation, creating a real ground game etc.
Given that Labour is desperately trying to give political power away, especially in the North, it is very, very rude of UKIP to not oblige.
It will take several more elections for ukip to become battle hardened, I'm not sure they can continue in the present state for much longer.
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@cathynewman: It's suggested @MichaelDugher is the only sacking. #nightoftheshortknives0
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@philipjcowley: Dugher sacking reminds me of the famous LBJ phrase about tents and piss. I predict someone is about to get very wet indeed.0
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True. Everything favours going early from Cameron's point of view. I think even June vs September makes a real difference.AlastairMeeks said:
16 weeks. I'm expecting the least notice possible once David Cameron is ready.blackburn63 said:
In terms of time what is the least notice than can be given?AlastairMeeks said:
David Cameron didn't really have a choice on this. My only surprise is that he's conceded the point this early in the process. It suggests to me that the vote may well be sooner rather than later.JohnO said:
Well, that's the first of my two assumptions fulfilled on why the Tories will not split post referendum.TheScreamingEagles said:The BBC - Harold Wilson David Cameron to announce that UK ministers will be allowed to campaign for either side ahead of the EU referendum
One reason why David Cameron may well want to go early is that the Leave camps are squabbling for precedence and this is likely to continue for some time. Going later will give them more time to sort themselves out.0 -
Is Cam still out on a Leave? Or has he thrown it not only to the people but to his party also and aim to lead whatever happens thereafter. For someone who has said he will step down and who it seems everyone wants to stay, it would be strange to gamble on an early ref, a Leave, and then a resignation.AlastairMeeks said:
16 weeks. I'm expecting the least notice possible once David Cameron is ready.blackburn63 said:
In terms of time what is the least notice than can be given?AlastairMeeks said:
David Cameron didn't really have a choice on this. My only surprise is that he's conceded the point this early in the process. It suggests to me that the vote may well be sooner rather than later.JohnO said:
Well, that's the first of my two assumptions fulfilled on why the Tories will not split post referendum.TheScreamingEagles said:The BBC - Harold Wilson David Cameron to announce that UK ministers will be allowed to campaign for either side ahead of the EU referendum
One reason why David Cameron may well want to go early is that the Leave camps are squabbling for precedence and this is likely to continue for some time. Going later will give them more time to sort themselves out.0 -
@philipjcowley: Whereas this just makes the reshuffle sound like Bullseye. https://t.co/Kt38di0Bk8
@skynewsniall: "You've got shadow foreign, d'you want to go for the leadership?" https://t.co/VD45xsgPBe0 -
Wow that's very interesting.chestnut said:
The most noticeable subsample yesterday was the >60 demographic.blackburn63 said:
Well this is the point. UKIP are disheveled, skint and rudderless but polling in the high teens, despite everybody on pb telling us they're finished and Nigel is a liability.AndyJS said:
Let's not talk about the fact that UKIP polled 17% with YouGov yesterday, one of their best showings for a long time.SouthamObserver said:Poor old Nigel; first an assassination attempt and now this. How much can one man take before he breaks?
UKIP were eight points ahead of Labour. The 60+ battle is becoming Tory v UKIP.
It may be that Labour are being written out of the contest. How can Labour hope to win when they have toxic leadership with the people most likely to vote?
The same thing may be happening in Scotland where the Tories may emerge as the main opposition to the SNP, with Labour written out.
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Have you not twigged that Mike co-ordinates his holiday plans with Number 10?TheScreamingEagles said:I confidently predict the referendum will be in June as Mike will be on holiday then.
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Ideal timing, surely, when the media and pb are distracted by Corbyn backing down, for Cameron to do likewise.AlastairMeeks said:
David Cameron didn't really have a choice on this. My only surprise is that he's conceded the point this early in the process. It suggests to me that the vote may well be sooner rather than later.JohnO said:
Well, that's the first of my two assumptions fulfilled on why the Tories will not split post referendum.TheScreamingEagles said:The BBC - Harold Wilson David Cameron to announce that UK ministers will be allowed to campaign for either side ahead of the EU referendum
The Boris problem may have concentrated the PM's, or more likely George Osborne's, mind. If Boris is to challenge Osborne for the leadership, he needs a big win which probably means leading the referendum campaign, where under the original plan, Boris could have been the public face. The alternative way to shut him up would be to appoint him as SoS for Something-or-other, but that is self-defeating as it also gives Boris a platform.0 -
So far, Cameron is Basil II, and Corbyn appears to be Tsar Samuel.
Only in this version, Samuel's taken his own army prisoner and is in the process of mutilating it.0 -
From the cabinet, IDS, Grayling, Whittingdale for sure.MarqueeMark said:So now Ministers can campaign for Leave - which ones will?
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Plenty of people saying the refugee crisis will worsen in the summer, right or wrong plenty will link that with the EU.Wanderer said:
True. Everything favours going early from Cameron's point of view. I think even June vs September makes a real difference.AlastairMeeks said:
16 weeks. I'm expecting the least notice possible once David Cameron is ready.blackburn63 said:
In terms of time what is the least notice than can be given?AlastairMeeks said:
David Cameron didn't really have a choice on this. My only surprise is that he's conceded the point this early in the process. It suggests to me that the vote may well be sooner rather than later.JohnO said:
Well, that's the first of my two assumptions fulfilled on why the Tories will not split post referendum.TheScreamingEagles said:The BBC - Harold Wilson David Cameron to announce that UK ministers will be allowed to campaign for either side ahead of the EU referendum
One reason why David Cameron may well want to go early is that the Leave camps are squabbling for precedence and this is likely to continue for some time. Going later will give them more time to sort themselves out.
It's a massive call for Dave in terms of timing, does Bottler Brown become Dithering Dave?
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So hunt and jarvis already supporting dugher...0
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Mr. 63, worth noting that 2017 is the year mentioned more, previously. It's interesting the debate is now what month this year rather than now or 2017.0
