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If we're not serious about defeating them it will probably come to that eventually.Plato_Says said:WTF
Indy Voices
We did it for the USSR - now it's time to grant Isis diplomatic recognition https://t.co/BC0px06tge0 -
Mr. Eagles, it's established the principle that EU soldiers loyal to the institution not any nation state can enter EU countries at will, without permission, and take actions contrary to that nation's interest and desires.0
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B*llocks. The EU could go all sorts of things that help individual nations manage their borders and immigrations issues, but that sort of real help isn't in their vocabulary. They can only manage things with endless cross-border agencies, rules, treaties and superfluous crap. It's almost as if the word "subsidiarity" had not been invented.TheScreamingEagles said:
i) People complain about the migration crisisdr_spyn said:
Even if we are not, I'm not comfortable with a supranational EU border force, are you?Richard_Nabavi said:
Err, you do realise we're not in Schengen?dr_spyn said:Will this shift the figures for staying in?
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-15-6346_en.htm
A para military force for the EU to cross member states' borders. Will this be one of Dave's cast iron opt outs?
ii) EU does something to try and deal with it
iii) People in i) Complain about the EU trying to do something with the migration crisis
The EU can't win. Remember the EU won a Nobel Peace Prize, they know how to keep the peace.0 -
So you want us out of NATO then?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, it's established the principle that EU soldiers loyal to the institution not any nation state can enter EU countries at will, without permission, and take actions contrary to that nation's interest and desires.
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And the box that has been ticked is that Britain supports eliding the EU and Schengen, as Richard Nabavi discusses below, and EU deployment of troops against host governments' wishes (invasion is such an old-fashioned word). Carelessness or a hidden pro-EU agenda? Either way, Britain cannot be a little bit pregnant.Plato_Says said:
I'm totally against it - but if we offer 10 troops, well it's box ticked.
Big_G_NorthWales said:
Believe David Cameron has offered UK forces to it. Maybe trying to be conciliatory to help in the negotiationsdr_spyn said:
Even if we are not, I'm not comfortable with a supranational EU border force, are you?Richard_Nabavi said:
Err, you do realise we're not in Schengen?dr_spyn said:Will this shift the figures for staying in?
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-15-6346_en.htm
A para military force for the EU to cross member states' borders. Will this be one of Dave's cast iron opt outs?0 -
Probably needed with the Greeks tbh.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, it's established the principle that EU soldiers loyal to the institution not any nation state can enter EU countries at will, without permission, and take actions contrary to that nation's interest and desires.
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Choosing the Ambassador to go to Raqqa would be an interesting dilemma - Ken Livingstone is free, I believe.Plato_Says said:WTF
Indy Voices
We did it for the USSR - now it's time to grant Isis diplomatic recognition https://t.co/BC0px06tge0 -
Hey, I suggested Katie Hopkins at the start of the year for that roleRichard_Nabavi said:
Choosing the Ambassador to go to Raqqa would be an interesting dilemma - Ken Livingstone is free, I believe.Plato_Says said:WTF
Indy Voices
We did it for the USSR - now it's time to grant Isis diplomatic recognition https://t.co/BC0px06tge0 -
I agree that "libertarian" is a label that can be used in different ways.blackburn63 said:
Yes I take your point and I've read about Rand Paul.Wanderer said:
I don't think there's an *ideal* libertarian candidate in the field (or, possibly, the world) but Rand Paul would be a suggestion.blackburn63 said:
Who would be the ideal candidate?Wanderer said:
If you are serious about your libertarianism you really shouldn't want Trump to win.blackburn63 said:I hope Trump wins, I don't like him much but my life won't change whoever wins and the reaction of the bedwetters will be hilarious.
My point is that Trump is an anti-libertarian. He's an authoritarian weirdo. Libertarians don't build walls across continents to stop people moving around.
Being libertarian, like every other label, is open to interpretation, immigration has to be controlled in countries that pay higher benefits than others. The first (I might argue only) role of govt is to protect it's citizens, a large part of that is border security. There are people who don't agree with our idea of civilisation and wish to harm us, the govt's role is to prevent that happening. That isn't at odds with being libertarian.
What is at odds is discrimination along lines of nationality or religion.
Imo, while a lot of libertarian ideas are not that practical and wouldn't necessarily make for a pleasant society in which to live, they are valuable because they make one think harder about whether a particular law or restriction really is justified and what assumptions are behind it. I think libertarianism is most interesting precisely where it makes one feel uncomfortable.
Regarding immigration, I think a consistent libertarian view would be that one may settle where one likes but must obey the laws in place there. Keeping people out because they appear likely to break the law might be practically useful but it is not, imo, libertarian, unless the threat is very clear and imminent.
Regarding entitlement to benefits, of course in a right-libertarian society there would probably be none. Alternatively, there might be a voluntary benefit system which (like any insurance scheme) required you to contribute before claiming and disallowed existing conditions (ie, if you're unemployed when you sign up it won't pay out). That wouldn't seem to present any issue wrt migration.0 -
Mr. Eagles, does NATO try and force laws upon us? Does it want to tax the City? Does it take billions from us every year? Did it create a deranged single currency?
Mr. Indigo, the answer is always the same "More EU". Like a drunk whose answers are at the bottom of a bottle, sooner or later the liver will burst.0 -
Mr. Pulpstar, Greece's border must be a bugger to try and manage.
But this isn't a Greek-only solution.0 -
You haven't answered my question.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, does NATO try and force laws upon us? Does it want to tax the City? Does it take billions from us every year? Did it create a deranged single currency?
Mr. Indigo, the answer is always the same "More EU". Like a drunk whose answers are at the bottom of a bottle, sooner or later the liver will burst.
Do you want us to remain in NATO?0 -
I'd send Diane.
Richard_Nabavi said:
Choosing the Ambassador to go to Raqqa would be an interesting dilemma - Ken Livingstone is free, I believe.Plato_Says said:WTF
Indy Voices
We did it for the USSR - now it's time to grant Isis diplomatic recognition https://t.co/BC0px06tge0 -
With the ComRes and now Ipsos Mori there's a real divergence between the online polls and the phone polls on the EURef.0
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Nigella damascena is a flower - a rather lovely one. Its common name is Love-in-a-Mist.DecrepitJohnL said:Nigella's sisters are Thomasina and Horatia. Who were Thomas and Horace?
Plato_Says said:At least he didn't call her Donalda. I can't get over Nigella Lawson. Nigella??
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She's not arguing that they're worthy of negotiation with. So that's a fail.TheScreamingEagles said:
Hey, I suggested Katie Hopkins at the start of the year for that roleRichard_Nabavi said:
Choosing the Ambassador to go to Raqqa would be an interesting dilemma - Ken Livingstone is free, I believe.Plato_Says said:WTF
Indy Voices
We did it for the USSR - now it's time to grant Isis diplomatic recognition https://t.co/BC0px06tge0 -
Mr. Eagles, I see no reason to leave NATO.
Do you think I should have cheese sandwiches for dinner tomorrow?
The constant ratcheting of powers from nations to Brussels is obvious.0 -
No, you should have some Caesar salad for dinner tomorrow.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, I see no reason to leave NATO.
Do you think I should have cheese sandwiches for dinner tomorrow?
The constant ratcheting of powers from nations to Brussels is obvious.
Do you want to the EU to deal with the migrant crisis? Yes or No.
I get the feeling whatever the EU suggested, people would be moaning like whores.0 -
Good post Mr wanderer.
Libertarianism is about the freedom of individuals under the protection of law, your point about freedom of movement and immigration is well made. In a utopian world there would be no borders, no wars, no threat from others, but that's not where we are.
I'm struggling to think of anything the govt can't devolve to the populace beyond security and a strong judiciary. All problems are created by govt.0 -
As far as I am aware the NATO treaties do not include a provision whereby one member can, against the wishes of another, send forces into that second country and conduct operations on its territory. Perhaps you know better and can point me to the relevant provision in the treaty.TheScreamingEagles said:
So you want us out of NATO then?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, it's established the principle that EU soldiers loyal to the institution not any nation state can enter EU countries at will, without permission, and take actions contrary to that nation's interest and desires.
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Mark Reckless screeching away on Radio 5. Wasn't he somebody once?0
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Mr. Eagles, dealing with the migrant crisis, amazingly, has the same answer as the eurozone crisis, and everything else. They're simply dragging power to the centre. National borders? No obstacle for bureaucrats in Brussels.
The migrant crisis would be dealt with if navies took illegal immigrants either back to their starting point, or to camps.0 -
Mr. Llama, until recently, the Turks (a NATO member) would not allow other nations to be based there to bomb Daesh, which rather backs up your point.0
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I thought that was the whole proviso of NATO were CCCP to attack West Germany and the West Germans surrendered, Le Royaume-Uni and Les États Unis could still conduct war in West GermanyHurstLlama said:
As far as I am aware the NATO treaties do not include a provision whereby one member can, against the wishes of another, send forces into that second country and conduct operations on its territory. Perhaps you know better and can point me to the relevant provision in the treaty.TheScreamingEagles said:
So you want us out of NATO then?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, it's established the principle that EU soldiers loyal to the institution not any nation state can enter EU countries at will, without permission, and take actions contrary to that nation's interest and desires.
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On topic:
Lay Jeb Bush because he isn't going to win; lay Mark Rubio because his odds are too short.0 -
@DaveyLockhart: #bbcqt comes from Slough this week (the home of Chasers). Here's our final panel of 2015 https://t.co/00sFYfqYlywatford30 said:Mark Reckless screeching away on Radio 5. Wasn't he somebody once?
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ComRes have directed me to this, about the differences in phone v online polls about the EURef, and well looks like their London Mayoral polls will be done online.
http://www.comres.co.uk/eu-referendum-all-still-to-play-for-by-not-neck-and-neck/0 -
I am very sorry. It was very naughty of me. I shall have to be spanked.TheScreamingEagles said:
Madam! There are gentleman of a certain age present here on this website and posts like that will not help their health.Cyclefree said:
I must say, I tend to the opposite view.TheScreamingEagles said:
The older I've got, the more I view sleep now as I did sex in my youth.ThreeQuidder said:
So do men.TheScreamingEagles said:@Kevin_Maguire: Ever wonder why Michael Gove looks so glum? Headline on wife Sarah Vine's Mail column: "Sorry chaps but women love sleep FAR more than sex!"
But I see that she's been scheduling sex. This is called "doing it wrong".
You should have seen me last night, I was at it for six straight hours.
But that's enough about Paris.......
Oh dear.
I do see the problem.
I shall try and behave...... 0 -
Any standard VI polls out? Just landed at LHRTheScreamingEagles said:With the ComRes and now Ipsos Mori there's a real divergence between the online polls and the phone polls on the EURef.
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He was a Leaver.watford30 said:Mark Reckless screeching away on Radio 5. Wasn't he somebody once?
And he left.
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It's called a "supply shock" and it's good news.AlastairMeeks said:
It's astonishing that as the labour market tightens, wages should be so subdued. Of all the aspects of Britain's economic recovery from the great recession, the employment market is the most mysterious.TheWhiteRabbit said:
3% was never going to last. If it falls <2% i.e. further still, then that would be cause for concern.</p>AlastairMeeks said:On the other hand, earnings don't look so good:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWVyfgbW4AAkWUK.jpg
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My opinion...TheScreamingEagles said:ComRes have directed me to this, about the differences in phone v online polls about the EURef, and well looks like their London Mayoral polls will be done online.
http://www.comres.co.uk/eu-referendum-all-still-to-play-for-by-not-neck-and-neck/
Telephone: Shy Leavers.
Online: Excited Leavers.
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Mass inmigration and you are surprised at wages being subdued? Basic laws of supply and demandgeoffw said:
It's called a "supply shock" and it's good news.AlastairMeeks said:
It's astonishing that as the labour market tightens, wages should be so subdued. Of all the aspects of Britain's economic recovery from the great recession, the employment market is the most mysterious.TheWhiteRabbit said:
3% was never going to last. If it falls <2% i.e. further still, then that would be cause for concern.</p>AlastairMeeks said:On the other hand, earnings don't look so good:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWVyfgbW4AAkWUK.jpg0 -
Yes Ipsos MoriRobD said:
Any standard VI polls out? Just landed at LHRTheScreamingEagles said:With the ComRes and now Ipsos Mori there's a real divergence between the online polls and the phone polls on the EURef.
Con 38 (-3) Lab 31 (-3) LD 9 (+2) UKIP 9 (+2)0 -
No. Try again, Mr. Eagles. NATO is a mutual defence pact based on treaties which set out what its members can and will do in the event that one of them is attacked. Trying to equate this latest proposal from the EU, which would in effect permit armed invasion of a member state in a time of peace, to NATO is rather pathetic.TheScreamingEagles said:
I thought that was the whole proviso of NATO were CCCP to attack West Germany and the West Germans surrendered, Le Royaume-Uni and Les États Unis could still conduct war in West GermanyHurstLlama said:
As far as I am aware the NATO treaties do not include a provision whereby one member can, against the wishes of another, send forces into that second country and conduct operations on its territory. Perhaps you know better and can point me to the relevant provision in the treaty.TheScreamingEagles said:
So you want us out of NATO then?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, it's established the principle that EU soldiers loyal to the institution not any nation state can enter EU countries at will, without permission, and take actions contrary to that nation's interest and desires.
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That's rather good.MarkHopkins said:
My opinion...TheScreamingEagles said:ComRes have directed me to this, about the differences in phone v online polls about the EURef, and well looks like their London Mayoral polls will be done online.
http://www.comres.co.uk/eu-referendum-all-still-to-play-for-by-not-neck-and-neck/
Telephone: Shy Leavers.
Online: Excited Leavers.0 -
If you flood the market with labour wages get compressed.geoffw said:
It's called a "supply shock" and it's good news.AlastairMeeks said:
It's astonishing that as the labour market tightens, wages should be so subdued. Of all the aspects of Britain's economic recovery from the great recession, the employment market is the most mysterious.TheWhiteRabbit said:
3% was never going to last. If it falls <2% i.e. further still, then that would be cause for concern.</p>AlastairMeeks said:On the other hand, earnings don't look so good:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWVyfgbW4AAkWUK.jpg
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"Leave"'s biggest problem is going to be polling booth bottlers.MarkHopkins said:
My opinion...TheScreamingEagles said:ComRes have directed me to this, about the differences in phone v online polls about the EURef, and well looks like their London Mayoral polls will be done online.
http://www.comres.co.uk/eu-referendum-all-still-to-play-for-by-not-neck-and-neck/
Telephone: Shy Leavers.
Online: Excited Leavers.0 -
I've lost the magic touch!TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes Ipsos MoriRobD said:
Any standard VI polls out? Just landed at LHRTheScreamingEagles said:With the ComRes and now Ipsos Mori there's a real divergence between the online polls and the phone polls on the EURef.
Con 38 (-3) Lab 31 (-3) LD 9 (+2) UKIP 9 (+2)0 -
The Ipsos Mori data tables and charts are out. Boo there are no leader figures (yet)
http://bit.ly/1UyybKg0 -
Great graphic from @chrisg0000 poster passim
UK unemployment DOWN again
#LongTermEconomicPlan https://t.co/dy8Ybn0szF0 -
Another one off the bucket list.
Winston McKenzie has joined the English Democrats, some say he is the most influential Black English political figure today.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWWFL6_XAAAKWsU.jpg:large0 -
It's good news for output and inflation. Yes wages are subdued, along with consumer prices. You want the other?blackburn63 said:
If you flood the market with labour wages get compressed.geoffw said:
It's called a "supply shock" and it's good news.AlastairMeeks said:
It's astonishing that as the labour market tightens, wages should be so subdued. Of all the aspects of Britain's economic recovery from the great recession, the employment market is the most mysterious.TheWhiteRabbit said:
3% was never going to last. If it falls <2% i.e. further still, then that would be cause for concern.</p>AlastairMeeks said:On the other hand, earnings don't look so good:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWVyfgbW4AAkWUK.jpg
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No I want everybody to have a job and for it to become an employee's market. All the while the supply of labour exceeds vacancies that won't happen.geoffw said:
It's good news for output and inflation. Yes wages are subdued, along with consumer prices. You want the other?blackburn63 said:
If you flood the market with labour wages get compressed.geoffw said:
It's called a "supply shock" and it's good news.AlastairMeeks said:
It's astonishing that as the labour market tightens, wages should be so subdued. Of all the aspects of Britain's economic recovery from the great recession, the employment market is the most mysterious.TheWhiteRabbit said:
3% was never going to last. If it falls <2% i.e. further still, then that would be cause for concern.</p>AlastairMeeks said:On the other hand, earnings don't look so good:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWVyfgbW4AAkWUK.jpg
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New Thread New Thread
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You told us yesterday you were leaning toward OUT, and now you are supporting this sort of federalist crap, which is it ?TheScreamingEagles said:
No, you should have some Caesar salad for dinner tomorrow.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, I see no reason to leave NATO.
Do you think I should have cheese sandwiches for dinner tomorrow?
The constant ratcheting of powers from nations to Brussels is obvious.
Do you want to the EU to deal with the migrant crisis? Yes or No.
I get the feeling whatever the EU suggested, people would be moaning like whores.0 -
What I want for Christmas
The site selling the board game, dudeiwantthat.com, reads: "Cat-Opoly is a Monopoly for people who really, really, really like cats. And cat videos, cat memes, cat selfies, cat forums, cat Reddit threads..."
The aim of the game is to buy as many cats as you can.0 -
Is it really good news and if so for whom? Lots more workers on low ages means lots more housing is required as well as lots more schools, hospitals, ambulances etc. etc. but not the taxes to pay for those necessary items. In fact the reverse because all those new workers on low wages are also entitled to claim in-work benefits, paid for by an proportionately smaller segment of the workforce who are net taxpayers.geoffw said:
It's good news for output and inflation. Yes wages are subdued, along with consumer prices. You want the other?blackburn63 said:
If you flood the market with labour wages get compressed.geoffw said:
It's called a "supply shock" and it's good news.AlastairMeeks said:
It's astonishing that as the labour market tightens, wages should be so subdued. Of all the aspects of Britain's economic recovery from the great recession, the employment market is the most mysterious.TheWhiteRabbit said:
3% was never going to last. If it falls <2% i.e. further still, then that would be cause for concern.</p>AlastairMeeks said:On the other hand, earnings don't look so good:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWVyfgbW4AAkWUK.jpg
Taxes for those that actually pay them must therefore rise or state borrowing must increase (which is really passing on higher taxes to future generations). The size of the economy might get bigger but its wealth declines and at the same time is concentrated into fewer and fewer hands.
Might I suggest that improving productivity and innovation increases wealth, suppressing those by continually increasing the size of the labour force is not a good idea.0 -
Cyber Kippers loving the sound and fury of their own opinions online. The Great British Public more sensible on the phone.MarkHopkins said:
My opinion...TheScreamingEagles said:ComRes have directed me to this, about the differences in phone v online polls about the EURef, and well looks like their London Mayoral polls will be done online.
http://www.comres.co.uk/eu-referendum-all-still-to-play-for-by-not-neck-and-neck/
Telephone: Shy Leavers.
Online: Excited Leavers.
Its like the Cybernats and Millifans all over again.0 -
He wants to look prescient - there will be a downturn again at some point, i fhe's lucky it will be soon and he will have 'called it' (notwithstanding I imagine he's not agreed with a single thing done economically in many a decade and predicted disaster as a result)Plato_Says said:I really don't know what battle Corbyn & Comrades are fighting - I really don't.
It's not 2008. I know he's snug in 1983, but who does he think he's talking to today?chestnut said:
And Corbyn is still talking about the need for People's QE to 'kickstart the economy'.AlastairMeeks said:@ONS · 1m1 minute ago
#Unemployment rate 5.2% for Aug-Oct 2015, down from 6.0% a year earlier http://ow.ly/VXHkE
@ONS · 20s21 seconds ago
#Employment rate 73.9% for Aug-Oct 2015, highest since records began in 1971 http://ow.ly/VXHyK0
