politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The latest PB/Polling Matters podcast looks at whether Don
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The latest PB/Polling Matters podcast looks at whether Donald Trump can really do it
On this week’s PB/Polling Matters podcast Keiran talks Trump with Ariel Edwards-Levy of the Huffington Post USA. His recent comments on Muslims have caused an international furor and yet his popularity (at least in the GOP) seems undiminished. Should we start getting used to the idea of President Trump?
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First! Thanks for these. Look forward to listening to this episode.0
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Of core snot!
That's this thread sorted. Next!0 -
That's what happens when you treat yourself to spaghetti on toast at this hour of the morning ..... you lose out. Drat!0
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Ahhhh... I feel more content now than I have for a long time.peter_from_putney said:That's what happens when you treat yourself to spaghetti on toast at this hour of the morning ..... you lose out. Drat!
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Rob - I'm only here to make you happy (occasionally).RobD said:
Ahhhh... I feel more content now than I have for a long time.peter_from_putney said:That's what happens when you treat yourself to spaghetti on toast at this hour of the morning ..... you lose out. Drat!
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Ah, you were conveniently away from the computer, allowing my to snipe first. I am in your debtpeter_from_putney said:
Rob - I'm only here to make you happy (occasionally).RobD said:
Ahhhh... I feel more content now than I have for a long time.peter_from_putney said:That's what happens when you treat yourself to spaghetti on toast at this hour of the morning ..... you lose out. Drat!
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Trump's figures seem very driven by hitting the news - I wonder if there's still an element of candidate recognition there. If American voters are like Brits (and I realise that's a dangerous assumption) they'll be struggling to keep track of all the candidates, and Trump certainly stands out as the guy everyone's talking about. Would a "Do you prefer Rubio, Cruz, Carson or Kasich?" poll get a lots of "Don't knows"? If so, there's hope for an anti-Trump to come through, just by focusing attention on himself.
Interesting Blantyre first prefs on the last thread - despite Dair's chaff, I'd think the SNP will have been surprised not to come first on recent trends. In general Lab/Lib performance on the results looks OK (the LibDem gain is startling) while UKIP performance looks weak again. But let's see the full results when Harry is able to - speedy recovery, by the way, Harry, we need you!0 -
FPT Best wishes for a speedy recovery to HH - you do a terrific job, mate.0
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UKIP continue to fade in yesterday's by-elections:
Britain Elects @britainelects 7h7 hours ago
Huntingdon East (Huntingdonshire) result:
LDEM: 45.0% (+13.8)
CON: 31.8% (+5.9)
UKIP: 15.6% (-16.9)
LAB: 7.5% (-2.9)
Britain Elects @britainelects 7h7 hours ago
Liberal Democrat GAIN Huntingdon East (Huntingdonshire) from UKIP.0 -
Like Keiran, I think that Ted Cruz looks well-placed at present. And the public still haven't properly tuned in yet so I'm far from convinced that Donald Trump's popularity is necessarily yet meaningful.0
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I'm far from convincef that Trump won't run regardless..AlastairMeeks said:Like Keiran, I think that Ted Cruz looks well-placed at present. And the public still haven't properly tuned in yet so I'm far from convinced that Donald Trump's popularity is necessarily yet meaningful.
A lead for so long, that much ego and money. He's a runner, Republican or independent.0 -
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It depends why and how he loses that lead if and when he does. I suspect that there is an element of self destruct about the Donald. It has taken longer than I expected but I still think it will come.philiph said:
I'm far from convincef that Trump won't run regardless..AlastairMeeks said:Like Keiran, I think that Ted Cruz looks well-placed at present. And the public still haven't properly tuned in yet so I'm far from convinced that Donald Trump's popularity is necessarily yet meaningful.
A lead for so long, that much ego and money. He's a runner, Republican or independent.0 -
This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.0
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Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.RobD said:
Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of itDavidL said:This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.
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Who knows, we may enjoy the numerous threads on Russian local elections which are bound to come. Harry's got his work cut out for him researching all those Russian wards!DavidL said:
Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.RobD said:
Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of itDavidL said:This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.
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All very Alien vs Predator http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/12044964/Mexican-drug-lord-El-Chapo-vows-to-destroy-Islamic-State.html
Cartel lords seem to be well suited to killing ISIS - incredibly brutal and awash with money0 -
The POTUS election is looking very much like Snow White vs the Seven Dwarves, except that all the Dwarves are Dopey. There is only going to be one winner.0
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Yes, and it won't be us.foxinsoxuk said:The POTUS election is looking very much like Snow White vs the Seven Dwarves, except that all the Dwarves are Dopey. There is only going to be one winner.
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I still have a sneaking regard for Hilary, if not as much as 8 years ago when she stood against Obama, but Snow White she isn't.foxinsoxuk said:The POTUS election is looking very much like Snow White vs the Seven Dwarves, except that all the Dwarves are Dopey. There is only going to be one winner.
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Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.0 -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/12043443/Terror-arrests-hit-record-levels-as-women-and-teenagers-lured-by-Isil.html
The number of terror suspects being arrested has risen by a third to record levels in just a year as women and young teenagers are increasingly lured by Isil, figures show.
Police detained 315 people under terror laws in the year to September compared with 235 in the previous 12 months, Home Office statistics show. The sharp rise was driven in part by a doubling of the number of women and youngsters aged under 18 held.
• Syria-related terror arrests increase sixfold in a year
There is also a worrying growth in the proportion of home grown fanatics with three quarters of those arrested British or dual national. The emergence of Isil in Syria and Iraq and its international reach is blamed for the huge increases in arrests and operations by the police and security agencies.0 -
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.0 -
Apols for posting again - but this trenchant writing was on a Nationalist blog:
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Scotland: The Slightly Less English British Franchise....
The Franchise where corporation tax is lower than it is in London. The Franchise where you can still go to jail for possessing cannabis, but hey, didn’t we show those English twats who is boss? The Franchise where we still operate on the same moral playing field as the union we so denounce – politically, economically and militarily insulated by NATO and the EU – while believing ourselves to be morally superior.
Scotland: The Slightly Less English British Franchise where being Scottish alone is what makes us moral. Where being Scottish in and of itself trumps all else. Where being Scottish is its own justification and anybody with anything critical to say is a vicious nonce apologist.
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2015/12/07/scotland-the-utopia-that-never-was/0 -
The most remarkable story of the day is surely Corbyn writing to the Judge asking for bail for a convicted fraudster who exploited vulnerable and elderly people, at least partly to fund IS. Is the man really a complete moron? What on earth was going through his head?
If he is lucky people will be more focussed on Christmas and organising their social lives through PB but really, what a crazy thing to do, even by his own exalted standards. He is still in that irrelevant but right on back bencher bubble and shows no desire to leave it.0 -
My guess is that Corbyn was not given a full story and felt a natural sympathy towards someone who was described to him as a "freedom fighter" or some such. Of course, in normal circumstances this would be a resignation issue. But we are way beyond that now. The cult would not hear of it.DavidL said:The most remarkable story of the day is surely Corbyn writing to the Judge asking for bail for a convicted fraudster who exploited vulnerable and elderly people, at least partly to fund IS. Is the man really a complete moron? What on earth was going through his head?
If he is lucky people will be more focussed on Christmas and organising their social lives through PB but really, what a crazy thing to do, even by his own exalted standards. He is still in that irrelevant but right on back bencher bubble and shows no desire to leave it.
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Alas no honey trap.DavidL said:
Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.RobD said:
Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of itDavidL said:This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.
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The numbers are high but apparently (from memory) only 39% of these people arrested are actually ever charged with anything and even fewer actually convicted. This is much lower than for any other category of crime.Plato_Says said:The number of terror suspects being arrested has risen by a third to record levels in just a year as women and young teenagers are increasingly lured by Isil, figures show.
Police detained 315 people under terror laws in the year to September compared with 235 in the previous 12 months, Home Office statistics show. The sharp rise was driven in part by a doubling of the number of women and youngsters aged under 18 held.
• Syria-related terror arrests increase sixfold in a year
There is also a worrying growth in the proportion of home grown fanatics with three quarters of those arrested British or dual national. The emergence of Isil in Syria and Iraq and its international reach is blamed for the huge increases in arrests and operations by the police and security agencies.
It seems arrest is being used as an early disrupter/discouragement strategy. I don't have any real problem with that but it can distort the picture a bit.0 -
But you would say that wouldn't you, Comrade!MikeSmithson said:
Alas no honey trap.DavidL said:
Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.RobD said:
Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of itDavidL said:This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.
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Good morning, everyone.
It's possible Trump could do it. Worse leaders have ascended to lead nations. Or political parties.
Mr. L, I agree. Apparently the Corbyn connection was made on the BBC news at six, but they'd magically forgotten about it in time for the news at ten. Not sure why.0 -
But hopefully some decent canopies?MikeSmithson said:
Alas no honey trap.DavidL said:
Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.RobD said:
Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of itDavidL said:This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.
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Well, that's all right then. Do MPs routinely write bail support letters without asking the police what the person was being charged with? This chappy seems to have ticked almost every Bad Apple box. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/12044641/Jeremy-Corbyn-writes-letter-pleading-for-fraudster-Mohamed-Dahir-to-be-freed-for-Christmas.html
Dahir’s relatives, who are from Somalia, last night claimed that Mr Corbyn, their local MP, is a “family friend” and that they have known him for “many years”.
Mr Corbyn's spokesman said: "Jeremy Corbyn condemns the actions of his constituent as appalling acts against vulnerable people and wholly unacceptable." Sources claimed when he wrote the letter he was unaware of the alleged links to terror. They added: "Jeremy was approached by his constituent prior to the trial, and wrote a letter on his behalf as is standard for a constituency MP.
"This was before the full facts of the case had emerged...DavidL said:The most remarkable story of the day is surely Corbyn writing to the Judge asking for bail for a convicted fraudster who exploited vulnerable and elderly people, at least partly to fund IS. Is the man really a complete moron? What on earth was going through his head?
If he is lucky people will be more focussed on Christmas and organising their social lives through PB but really, what a crazy thing to do, even by his own exalted standards. He is still in that irrelevant but right on back bencher bubble and shows no desire to leave it.0 -
I think comparing the arrest/charge rates is a red herring myself. These aren't your average crimes and involve a great deal of conspiracy.
The numbers are high but apparently (from memory) only 39% of these people arrested are actually ever charged with anything and even fewer actually convicted. This is much lower than for any other category of crime.DavidL said:Plato_Says said:The number of terror suspects being arrested has risen by a third to record levels in just a year as women and young teenagers are increasingly lured by Isil, figures show.
Police detained 315 people under terror laws in the year to September compared with 235 in the previous 12 months, Home Office statistics show. The sharp rise was driven in part by a doubling of the number of women and youngsters aged under 18 held.
• Syria-related terror arrests increase sixfold in a year
There is also a worrying growth in the proportion of home grown fanatics with three quarters of those arrested British or dual national. The emergence of Isil in Syria and Iraq and its international reach is blamed for the huge increases in arrests and operations by the police and security agencies.
It seems arrest is being used as an early disrupter/discouragement strategy. I don't have any real problem with that but it can distort the picture a bit.
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Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.JosiasJessop said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.
As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.
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Miss Plato, is Corbyn a fool or a knave? That is the question.0
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My User account shows I left Embassy on my own at 7.56pm for St Pancras.JosiasJessop said:
But you would say that wouldn't you, Comrade!MikeSmithson said:
Alas no honey trap.DavidL said:
Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.RobD said:
Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of itDavidL said:This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.
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Someone who shouldn't be in the Labour Party, nevermind leading it.Morris_Dancer said:
Miss Plato, is Corbyn a fool or a knave? That is the question.
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There's Big Bear - it's pretty good, but limited in scope.rcs1000 said:
To be honest, I'd head over to Teleride if that's what you're looking for0 -
A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.JosiasJessop said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.0 -
If @rcs1000 is about - on your recommendation, I slogged through 7 episodes of Jennifer Jones. I'd give it a 7/10. I'm clearly missing what made you such a fan. I'll finish it only because I'm stubborn 0
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JPM conference - a lot of my industry migrates to SF for a few days in January, so I'm going there to catch up with old friendsRobD said:0 -
Mr indigo are you Douglas Carswell?Indigo said:
A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.JosiasJessop said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.
The eurosceptics in the Conservative party regard Cameron as being thoroughly untrustworthy, this sham of renegotiations is going to expose him completely. That's not to say we'll leave, but it will discredit Cameron in the way plenty of us have been pointing out for years.
The Heathrow farce is further evidence.
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The real fools are surely those who thought that Cameron was genuinely seeking anything other than a process with other EU countries that would enable him to say he had achieved his objectives and so would campaign for a Remain vote.blackburn63 said:
Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.JosiasJessop said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.
As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.
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Well quite, stand up pb Tories.SouthamObserver said:
The real fools are those who thought that Cameron was genuinely seeking anything other than a process with other EU countries that would enable him to say he had achieved his objectives and so would campaign for a Remain vote.blackburn63 said:
Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.JosiasJessop said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.
As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.
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IT records are easy to manipulate...MikeSmithson said:
My User account shows I left Embassy on my own at 7.56pm for St Pancras.JosiasJessop said:
But you would say that wouldn't you, Comrade!MikeSmithson said:
Alas no honey trap.DavidL said:
Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.RobD said:
Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of itDavidL said:This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.
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If given a choice, I, too, would always prefer a good roof over tasty finger food at a cocktail receptionDavidL said:
But hopefully some decent canopies?MikeSmithson said:
Alas no honey trap.DavidL said:
Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.RobD said:
Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of itDavidL said:This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.
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To be fair if Hannan or Carswell were leading the kippers instead of Farage a lot more of us would have voted purple, but the bluster and unpleasant dog whistles is a bit off-putting, that, and knowing that the kippers under Farage haven't a hope in hell of winning anything of substance because he pisses off too many people.blackburn63 said:
Well quite, stand up pb Tories.SouthamObserver said:
The real fools are those who thought that Cameron was genuinely seeking anything other than a process with other EU countries that would enable him to say he had achieved his objectives and so would campaign for a Remain vote.blackburn63 said:
Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.JosiasJessop said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.
As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.
Anyway, most PBTories are "undecided" like Mr Nabavi and TSE, which I think is a nice way of saying they are waiting for the email from CCHQ telling them which way to vote!0 -
Arf, and commiserations – how was the vodka, tovarish?MikeSmithson said:
Alas no honey trap.DavidL said:
Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.RobD said:
Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of itDavidL said:This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.
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Can I ask a serious question about Heathrow vs Gatwick? Yes, I could google, but I suspect a more measured answer is available here. If pollution (chemical and noise) is the issue, why is it not an issue at Gatwick too?. Is Croydon not built up?
Wherever a new runway is built, it will cause distress to the locals, or be so far away, it would be worthy of Ryanair. Why is Heathrow special?0 -
There is definitely a feeling of drift atm with the government. EU, LHR, junior doctors, tax credits...blackburn63 said:
Well quite, stand up pb Tories.SouthamObserver said:
The real fools are those who thought that Cameron was genuinely seeking anything other than a process with other EU countries that would enable him to say he had achieved his objectives and so would campaign for a Remain vote.blackburn63 said:
Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.JosiasJessop said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.
As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.
People have taken the economic recovery for granted and might be forgiven for asking: what is this government actually doing?
Of course the answer: "it is being not a Jeremy Corbyn-led Labour Party" is more than sufficient for the moment.
But the risk is that Lab comes to its senses in which case I feel the Cons would get massacred.0 -
That's an interesting point, hopefully at some stage we'll see if it's true. Nigel got 4m votes, a great achievement, as things stand that will be less in 2020.Indigo said:
To be fair if Hannan or Carswell were leading the kippers instead of Farage a lot more of us would have voted purple, but the bluster and unpleasant dog whistles is a bit off-putting, that, and knowing that the kippers under Farage haven't a hope in hell of winning anything of substance because he pisses off too many people.blackburn63 said:
Well quite, stand up pb Tories.SouthamObserver said:
The real fools are those who thought that Cameron was genuinely seeking anything other than a process with other EU countries that would enable him to say he had achieved his objectives and so would campaign for a Remain vote.blackburn63 said:
Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.JosiasJessop said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.
As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.
Anyway, most PBTories are "undecided" like Mr Nabavi and TSE, which I think is a nice way of saying they are waiting for the email from CCHQ telling them which way to vote!
You misunderstand Mr Nabavi, he has stated unequivocally that he is not tribal.
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It is, but the area around Heathrow is much more built up with approach flightpaths over West London/Slough & Windsor - much more greenery around Gatwick where much of the approach is over open country.CD13 said:
Can I ask a serious question about Heathrow vs Gatwick? Yes, I could google, but I suspect a more measured answer is available here. If pollution (chemical and noise) is the issue, why is it not an issue at Gatwick too?. Is Croydon not built up?
Wherever a new runway is built, it will cause distress to the locals, or be so far away, it would be worthy of Ryanair. Why is Heathrow special?0 -
Welcome back comrade Smithson!0
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Heathrow's not really the government's fault (although they should change the rules).blackburn63 said:
Mr indigo are you Douglas Carswell?Indigo said:
A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.JosiasJessop said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.
The eurosceptics in the Conservative party regard Cameron as being thoroughly untrustworthy, this sham of renegotiations is going to expose him completely. That's not to say we'll leave, but it will discredit Cameron in the way plenty of us have been pointing out for years.
The Heathrow farce is further evidence.
Unfortunately the concept of judicial review - intended to avoid unfair and perverse decisions by the executive - has been stretched beyond all recognition by campaigners.
With the Heathrow activists threatening court action because inadequate analysis of environmental and noise impact of a third runway had been performed, unfortunately the government needs to do the extra work. If they didn't, it would go to court, be delayed & then there would be a good chance they'd need to do the extra work anyway0 -
Ms Vance,
I see. Thank you.0 -
To be fair if Hannan or Carswell were leading the kippers instead of Farage a lot more of us would have voted purple, but the bluster and unpleasant dog whistles is a bit off-putting, that, and knowing that the kippers under Farage haven't a hope in hell of winning anything of substance because he pisses off too many people.Indigo said:
Well quite, stand up pb Tories.blackburn63 said:
The real fools are those who thought that Cameron was genuinely seeking anything other than a process with other EU countries that would enable him to say he had achieved his objectives and so would campaign for a Remain vote.SouthamObserver said:
Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.blackburn63 said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.JosiasJessop said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.
As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.
Anyway, most PBTories are "undecided" like Mr Nabavi and TSE, which I think is a nice way of saying they are waiting for the email from CCHQ telling them which way to vote!
It wouldn't have mattered who was leading UKIP, the same process would have happened. Dan Hannan would probably have been portrayed as a nasty Thatcherite elitist, Carswell, who is far less articulate than Farage, would have just been pres mincemeat.
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I can not fathom how anyone believes the disputes over EU benefits are genuine. Cameron negotiated with other EU leaders for months and months before he wrote the letter. Any humiliating surrender he needed to make has already been done. Given he was willing to fold so easily, and to such little scrutiny from the compliant media, on migration caps, the CFP, the CAP, the social chapter, the EU budget, treaty change etc, why on Earth would he have put anything in doubt in such a publicly available document? You'd have to be even more gullible to believe it when ministers are on record as saying there would be a manufactured row!
The four demands are actually only two demands: a non-EZ veto and a four year ban on benefits. They have already been won. They were due to be announced in December but the Lords messing about has meant the shine of the false victory would have worn off by the time of the vote. So they are now delaying until the vote is in law. Then there will be a last minute victory by Cameron, which the Europhile and Tory loyalist press will report as an unexpected victory over hard opposition. The word Thatcherite might even be used. Then there will be a rush to vote before it unravels as having no effect on immigration whatsoever.0 -
All 4 people in the this week studio last night were laughing laughing at the prospect that Cameron's negotiations might go well. Jess Phillips and the SNP Lady were understandable, but Portillo and Neil are not unsympathetic to the Toriesblackburn63 said:
Well quite, stand up pb Tories.SouthamObserver said:
The real fools are those who thought that Cameron was genuinely seeking anything other than a process with other EU countries that would enable him to say he had achieved his objectives and so would campaign for a Remain vote.blackburn63 said:
Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.JosiasJessop said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.
As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.
As Portillo said, Cameron told everyone at the start that he wanted Britain to remain, and that meant any negotiation was doomed0 -
Perhaps Cameron is an arch-eurosceptic in disguise, and he's being crap at negotiations so he can say "F it, we're out"... perhaps 0
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I am uncomfortable with the view that everyone else will be swayed by a "compliant media", whilst we, the better informed, call us more intelligent, will see through it all with our our laser-like acute analysis.Socrates said:I can not fathom how anyone believes the disputes over EU benefits are genuine. Cameron negotiated with other EU leaders for months and months before he wrote the letter. Any humiliating surrender he needed to make has already been done. Given he was willing to fold so easily, and to such little scrutiny from the compliant media, on migration caps, the CFP, the CAP, the social chapter, the EU budget, treaty change etc, why on Earth would he have put anything in doubt in such a publicly available document? You'd have to be even more gullible to believe it when ministers are on record as saying there would be a manufactured row!
The four demands are actually only two demands: a non-EZ veto and a four year ban on benefits. They have already been won. They were due to be announced in December but the Lords messing about has meant the shine of the false victory would have worn off by the time of the vote. So they are now delaying until the vote is in law. Then there will be a last minute victory by Cameron, which the Europhile and Tory loyalist press will report as an unexpected victory over hard opposition. The word Thatcherite might even be used. Then there will be a rush to vote before it unravels as having no effect on immigration whatsoever.
Echoes of CiF and the great Murdoch conspiracy in such a proposition.
(Welcome back, btw.)0 -
Welcome back, Mr. Socrates.
The negotiation is, I suspect, over the piece of paper Cameron will get, which he will claim is a great victory.
A few months ago some here were suggesting he might go for Out, but I remained as sceptical then as I am now.
Edited extra bit: Mr. D, if he is, it's a very good disguise.0 -
Convenient that it also gives the opportunity to kick the can down the road to try to avoid a politically impactful decision then.Charles said:
Heathrow's not really the government's fault (although they should change the rules).blackburn63 said:
Mr indigo are you Douglas Carswell?Indigo said:
A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.JosiasJessop said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.
The eurosceptics in the Conservative party regard Cameron as being thoroughly untrustworthy, this sham of renegotiations is going to expose him completely. That's not to say we'll leave, but it will discredit Cameron in the way plenty of us have been pointing out for years.
The Heathrow farce is further evidence.
Unfortunately the concept of judicial review - intended to avoid unfair and perverse decisions by the executive - has been stretched beyond all recognition by campaigners.
With the Heathrow activists threatening court action because inadequate analysis of environmental and noise impact of a third runway had been performed, unfortunately the government needs to do the extra work. If they didn't, it would go to court, be delayed & then there would be a good chance they'd need to do the extra work anyway
Gutless. Or incompetent in not being in a position to take the decision yet.0 -
TOPPING said:
The Suns lead editorial on Monday absolutely slaughtered Cameron's negotiations... I posted it on here, but looking through my comments it appears to have been deletedSocrates said:I can not fathom how anyone believes the disputes over EU benefits are genuine. Cameron negotiated with that everyone else will be swayed by a "compliant media", whilst we, the better informed, call us more intelligent, will see through it all with our our laser-like acute analysis.
Echoes of CiF and the great Murdoch conspiracy in such a proposition.
(Welcome back, btw.)
Edit no it wasn't here it is
"Cam’s dud deal
WE must have been overcome by optimism to imagine David Cameron’s EU renegotiation would produce a deal worth a damn.
Three of the four concessions he asked Brussels for were barely worth the ink.
The fourth, withholding benefits from EU migrants for four years, sounds significant — but would have a tiny impact on our soaring immigration. The vast majority arrive here not for handouts but for work, as lucrative as possible.
A handful might reconsider coming if tax credits weren’t on offer . . . but not many. The rising Living Wage would cancel out any disincentive anyway.
The Prime Minister only cooked this up because he lacked the nerve to demand full and permanent control of our borders, despite the growing strength of our hand as the migrant crisis paralysed the continent.
Yet we are now led to believe even this is being fought in Brussels.
Mr Cameron’s bluff about leading the Out campaign if he doesn’t get his way may be being called already.
But even if he wins this minor tweak, so what? It’s no game-changer.
He might as well name the referendum date now."
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/sun_says/6500866/Sun-Says.html
Flag Quote · Off Topic0 -
You would say that, wouldn't you?MikeSmithson said:
Alas no honey trap.DavidL said:
Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.RobD said:
Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of itDavidL said:This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.
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Your point is precisely even when I was reluctant remainder I thought leave had a good chance winning. There is enough dissent around that the alternate case will get out even when Cameron claims a victory (how credibly, we shall see), and assuming people will be fooled is pessimistic.TOPPING said:
I am uncomfortable with the view that everyone else will be swayed by a "compliant media", whilst we, the better informed, call us more intelligent, will see through it all with our our laser-like acute analysis.Socrates said:I can not fathom how anyone believes the disputes over EU benefits are genuine. Cameron negotiated with other EU leaders for months and months before he wrote the letter. Any humiliating surrender he needed to make has already been done. Given he was willing to fold so easily, and to such little scrutiny from the compliant media, on migration caps, the CFP, the CAP, the social chapter, the EU budget, treaty change etc, why on Earth would he have put anything in doubt in such a publicly available document? You'd have to be even more gullible to believe it when ministers are on record as saying there would be a manufactured row!
The four demands are actually only two demands: a non-EZ veto and a four year ban on benefits. They have already been won. They were due to be announced in December but the Lords messing about has meant the shine of the false victory would have worn off by the time of the vote. So they are now delaying until the vote is in law. Then there will be a last minute victory by Cameron, which the Europhile and Tory loyalist press will report as an unexpected victory over hard opposition. The word Thatcherite might even be used. Then there will be a rush to vote before it unravels as having no effect on immigration whatsoever.
Echoes of CiF and the great Murdoch conspiracy in such a proposition.
(Welcome back, btw.)0 -
I very well might have, if he hadn't made a big thing about saying that a very good friend of mine should have been left to die by the NHS.Indigo said:
To be fair if Hannan or Carswell were leading the kippers instead of Farage a lot more of us would have voted purple, but the bluster and unpleasant dog whistles is a bit off-putting, that, and knowing that the kippers under Farage haven't a hope in hell of winning anything of substance because he pisses off too many people.blackburn63 said:
Well quite, stand up pb Tories.SouthamObserver said:
The real fools are those who thought that Cameron was genuinely seeking anything other than a process with other EU countries that would enable him to say he had achieved his objectives and so would campaign for a Remain vote.blackburn63 said:
Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.JosiasJessop said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.
As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.
0 -
Like the word "Hannanite". Sounds like an 18th century nonconformist sect.Indigo said:
A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.JosiasJessop said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.0 -
Well I was just about to say 'welcome back'!Socrates said:I can not fathom how anyone believes the disputes over EU benefits are genuine. Cameron negotiated with other EU leaders for months and months before he wrote the letter. Any humiliating surrender he needed to make has already been done. Given he was willing to fold so easily, and to such little scrutiny from the compliant media, on migration caps, the CFP, the CAP, the social chapter, the EU budget, treaty change etc, why on Earth would he have put anything in doubt in such a publicly available document? You'd have to be even more gullible to believe it when ministers are on record as saying there would be a manufactured row!
The four demands are actually only two demands: a non-EZ veto and a four year ban on benefits. They have already been won. They were due to be announced in December but the Lords messing about has meant the shine of the false victory would have worn off by the time of the vote. So they are now delaying until the vote is in law. Then there will be a last minute victory by Cameron, which the Europhile and Tory loyalist press will report as an unexpected victory over hard opposition. The word Thatcherite might even be used. Then there will be a rush to vote before it unravels as having no effect on immigration whatsoever.
Looking over my own shoulder now!!0 -
It not so much a "swayed by the media" as "not really that interested or listening that closely so only really heard the stories on the TV while eating their dinner, or on the radio while they have their breakfast", ergo they will only hear the BBC views of the negotiations and even if they are smart, they will not have seen a rounded view of the issues. Many people are very clever, but insufficiently interested in politics as to bother with being well informed, their vote is still worth as much as anyone elses.TOPPING said:I am uncomfortable with the view that everyone else will be swayed by a "compliant media", whilst we, the better informed, call us more intelligent, will see through it all with our our laser-like acute analysis.
Echoes of CiF and the great Murdoch conspiracy in such a proposition.
(Welcome back, btw.)
Politics thrives on the disinterest of the bulk of the populations, you get endless bullshit like Dave's "cast iron" promises, and his "no ifs, no buts", and most of Osbrown's budgets, which the spin doctors know they will have to back away from once the think tanks have had a look, but the PM launching his manifesto, or the Chancellors budget speech gets a large audience, his spin doctors moving to a more nuanced position on the second page of the politics section of the Telegraph is seem by almost no one. So that man on the streets only sees the bullshit version.0 -
The political advantages are a side benefit.kle4 said:
Convenient that it also gives the opportunity to kick the can down the road to try to avoid a politically impactful decision then.Charles said:
Heathrow's not really the government's fault (although they should change the rules).blackburn63 said:
Mr indigo are you Douglas Carswell?Indigo said:
A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.JosiasJessop said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.
The eurosceptics in the Conservative party regard Cameron as being thoroughly untrustworthy, this sham of renegotiations is going to expose him completely. That's not to say we'll leave, but it will discredit Cameron in the way plenty of us have been pointing out for years.
The Heathrow farce is further evidence.
Unfortunately the concept of judicial review - intended to avoid unfair and perverse decisions by the executive - has been stretched beyond all recognition by campaigners.
With the Heathrow activists threatening court action because inadequate analysis of environmental and noise impact of a third runway had been performed, unfortunately the government needs to do the extra work. If they didn't, it would go to court, be delayed & then there would be a good chance they'd need to do the extra work anyway
Gutless. Or incompetent in not being in a position to take the decision yet.
The choices were making a decision, getting sued, no progress for 6 months and a 50/50 chance of further delay
Or (b) delay now, do the analysis, get sued, 90/10 chance of being able to progress. With political upside.
Not gutless, sensible. For a 50 year decision, 6 months is neither here nor there. But they need to reform judicial review (as I've been saying for 5 years)0 -
0
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Or maybe the Great British Public can weigh up the pros and cons themselves and form their own opinions. Then come to the correct conclusion, they usually do. It all smacks to me of the BOOers getting their excuses in early, a bit like the cybernats.Indigo said:
It not so much a "swayed by the media" as "not really that interested or listening that closely so only really heard the stories on the TV while eating their dinner, or on the radio while they have their breakfast", ergo they will only hear the BBC views of the negotiations and even if they are smart, they will not have seen a rounded view of the issues. Many people are very clever, but insufficiently interested in politics as to bother with being well informed, their vote is still worth as much as anyone elses.TOPPING said:I am uncomfortable with the view that everyone else will be swayed by a "compliant media", whilst we, the better informed, call us more intelligent, will see through it all with our our laser-like acute analysis.
Echoes of CiF and the great Murdoch conspiracy in such a proposition.
(Welcome back, btw.)
Politics thrives on the disinterest of the bulk of the populations, you get endless bullshit like Dave's "cast iron" promises, and his "no ifs, no buts", and most of Osbrown's budgets, which the spin doctors know they will have to back away from once the think tanks have had a look, but the PM launching his manifesto, or the Chancellors budget speech gets a large audience, his spin doctors moving to a more nuanced position on the second page of the politics section of the Telegraph is seem by almost no one. So that man on the streets only sees the bullshit version.0 -
Bella Caledonia is pro Independence not pro SNP. I presume the writer is RISE or SSP.CarlottaVance said:Apols for posting again - but this trenchant writing was on a Nationalist blog:
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Scotland: The Slightly Less English British Franchise....
The Franchise where corporation tax is lower than it is in London. The Franchise where you can still go to jail for possessing cannabis, but hey, didn’t we show those English twats who is boss? The Franchise where we still operate on the same moral playing field as the union we so denounce – politically, economically and militarily insulated by NATO and the EU – while believing ourselves to be morally superior.
Scotland: The Slightly Less English British Franchise where being Scottish alone is what makes us moral. Where being Scottish in and of itself trumps all else. Where being Scottish is its own justification and anybody with anything critical to say is a vicious nonce apologist.
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2015/12/07/scotland-the-utopia-that-never-was/0 -
Ah Mr FoxInSocksEU fancy seeing you herefoxinsoxuk said:
Or maybe the Great British Public can weigh up the pros and cons themselves and form their own opinions. Then come to the correct conclusion, they usually do. It all smacks to me of the BOOers getting their excuses in early, a bit like the cybernats.Indigo said:
It not so much a "swayed by the media" as "not really that interested or listening that closely so only really heard the stories on the TV while eating their dinner, or on the radio while they have their breakfast", ergo they will only hear the BBC views of the negotiations and even if they are smart, they will not have seen a rounded view of the issues. Many people are very clever, but insufficiently interested in politics as to bother with being well informed, their vote is still worth as much as anyone elses.TOPPING said:I am uncomfortable with the view that everyone else will be swayed by a "compliant media", whilst we, the better informed, call us more intelligent, will see through it all with our our laser-like acute analysis.
Echoes of CiF and the great Murdoch conspiracy in such a proposition.
(Welcome back, btw.)
Politics thrives on the disinterest of the bulk of the populations, you get endless bullshit like Dave's "cast iron" promises, and his "no ifs, no buts", and most of Osbrown's budgets, which the spin doctors know they will have to back away from once the think tanks have had a look, but the PM launching his manifesto, or the Chancellors budget speech gets a large audience, his spin doctors moving to a more nuanced position on the second page of the politics section of the Telegraph is seem by almost no one. So that man on the streets only sees the bullshit version. If OUT wins you will be jumping up and down like a maniac complaining that politicians, never mind the public don't know enough for the country to function outside the EU and how it's madness to even consider it 0 -
Plato_Says
I am rather sympathetic to Corbyn on the fraudster letter. MPs do try to do their best for their constituents and cannot always have the full information available.
One complication for Labour is their re-action when Nicola Sturgeon got herself into a similar spot of bother a few years back, although in that case there was no alleged extremist connection.
Labour demanded her head. Salmond very robustly defended his Deputy. Sturgeon apologised and emerged stronger from the episode. Perhaps Corbyn should follow suit and Labour should take more care when demanding resignations in future. They can some back to bite.
Sturgeon apologises for fraudster letter | Scotland | News
news.stv.tv/scotland/159695-sturgeon-apologises-for-fraudster-letter/
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Just an observation about this thread. I would like to comment on-topic but I can't listen to a podcast right now. Would it be possible to include a quick summary of the arguments?0
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Miss Lass, problem is that Corbyn's already referred to friends in Hamas and Hezbollah, and he and his chancellor have quoted Hoxha and Mao whilst Livingstone, appointed by Corbyn to a Defence matter, has claimed UK foreign policy absolved the 7/7 bombers of their responsibility.
Corbyn has a lot of previous which Sturgeon did not.0 -
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Yup.Wanderer said:
Like the word "Hannanite". Sounds like an 18th century nonconformist sect.Indigo said:
A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.JosiasJessop said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.0 -
I had enough fish fingers last night to fund Birds Eye of a whole year :-(0
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It's not an attempt to deflect anything, yet alone the 'truth' you say above.Indigo said:
A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.JosiasJessop said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.
It's a rather direct prod that UKIP are in chaos and losing real elections, just before a referendum that might see their main aim come to fruition. Yet instead of giving positive arguments for leaving the EU, all we get is how beastly Cameron's stitching it up.
It's like UKIP has given up and are getting their excuses in early. They need a new leader, and fast. It'd been better if they'd got one in May after Farage's repeated failure, but even now someone competent could make a positive difference to their fortunes.0 -
perhaps a basic competency test for the man on the street before being allowed to vote?Indigo said:
It not so much a "swayed by the media" as "not really that interested or listening that closely so only really heard the stories on the TV while eating their dinner, or on the radio while they have their breakfast", ergo they will only hear the BBC views of the negotiations and even if they are smart, they will not have seen a rounded view of the issues. Many people are very clever, but insufficiently interested in politics as to bother with being well informed, their vote is still worth as much as anyone elses.TOPPING said:I am uncomfortable with the view that everyone else will be swayed by a "compliant media", whilst we, the better informed, call us more intelligent, will see through it all with our our laser-like acute analysis.
Echoes of CiF and the great Murdoch conspiracy in such a proposition.
(Welcome back, btw.)
Politics thrives on the disinterest of the bulk of the populations, you get endless bullshit like Dave's "cast iron" promises, and his "no ifs, no buts", and most of Osbrown's budgets, which the spin doctors know they will have to back away from once the think tanks have had a look, but the PM launching his manifesto, or the Chancellors budget speech gets a large audience, his spin doctors moving to a more nuanced position on the second page of the politics section of the Telegraph is seem by almost no one. So that man on the streets only sees the bullshit version.0 -
Mr. Rog, why the sad face? Was this some sort of cruel and unusual punishment?0
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Hasn't Zac Goldsmith threatened to resign as an MP and fight an "anti' byelection campaign if the runways goes ahead> I doubt though he consider resigning as Mayor of London, so that's clearly the gamble.kle4 said:
Convenient that it also gives the opportunity to kick the can down the road to try to avoid a politically impactful decision then.Charles said:
Heathrow's not really the government's fault (although they should change the rules).blackburn63 said:
Mr indigo are you Douglas Carswell?Indigo said:
A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.JosiasJessop said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.
The eurosceptics in the Conservative party regard Cameron as being thoroughly untrustworthy, this sham of renegotiations is going to expose him completely. That's not to say we'll leave, but it will discredit Cameron in the way plenty of us have been pointing out for years.
The Heathrow farce is further evidence.
Unfortunately the concept of judicial review - intended to avoid unfair and perverse decisions by the executive - has been stretched beyond all recognition by campaigners.
With the Heathrow activists threatening court action because inadequate analysis of environmental and noise impact of a third runway had been performed, unfortunately the government needs to do the extra work. If they didn't, it would go to court, be delayed & then there would be a good chance they'd need to do the extra work anyway
Gutless. Or incompetent in not being in a position to take the decision yet.0 -
The Conservative party and Cameron are giving people the first choice about membership that the UK public have had in more than 40 years. I find all this moaning by conspiracy theorists about how that choice is supposedly going to be rigged quite pathetic and, as an agnostic on the matter, more than a bit off putting.
We can all judge the package when we have it. It will either be adequate or it will not. Kippers and Euro phobes alike would be making a much better use of their considerable energy by working up and agreeing alternatives to membership and making a positive case for them in the media and elsewhere. I, for one, am seriously interested in what that alternative might be because the present situation is unsatisfactory and it is unlikely that Cameron will be able to ensure we have adequate protections for our key industries in the future.
So we have the choice of an ok to bad deal in or a completely (as yet) undefined out. Get on with it. There is a case to be made and won here if you only stop the winging and do some positive work. But it is always easier just to carp.0 -
Firstly, I am not a Conservative.blackburn63 said:
Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.JosiasJessop said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.
As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.
Secondly, we're approaching the EU referendum and UKIP are losing ground. As I said above, if you want to leave the EU you might want to address the problems within your own party rather than just bitching about Cameron.
Sometimes I wonder if a fair few vocal UKIPpers don't actually want to leave the EU ...0 -
Seems as though the telegraph, the sun, the guardian, and the BBC are all xenophobic kippers getting their excuses in early for the referendum defeat
Who knew?!0 -
I OD'd on a box of them last week. Urgh hangover
Blue_rog said:I had enough fish fingers last night to fund Birds Eye of a whole year :-(
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You're the first person to mention xenophobia on this thread.isam said:Seems as though the telegraph, the sun, the guardian, and the BBC are all xenophobic kippers getting their excuses in early for the referendum defeat
Who knew?!
As the keenest fan of Farage on here, I'd have thought you'd want to spend a little time considering your position on his 'leadership'.0 -
That works both ways, Cameron has said he wants to stay in a reformed EU, it is entirely legitimate to question what those reforms are and what his stance is if he fails to achieve them.DavidL said:The Conservative party and Cameron are giving people the first choice about membership that the UK public have had in more than 40 years. I find all this moaning by conspiracy theorists about how that choice is supposedly going to be rigged quite pathetic and, as an agnostic on the matter, more than a bit off putting.
We can all judge the package when we have it. It will either be adequate or it will not. Kippers and Euro phobes alike would be making a much better use of their considerable energy by working up and agreeing alternatives to membership and making a positive case for them in the media and elsewhere. I, for one, am seriously interested in what that alternative might be because the present situation is unsatisfactory and it is unlikely that Cameron will be able to ensure we have adequate protections for our key industries in the future.
So we have the choice of an ok to bad deal in or a completely (as yet) undefined out. Get on with it. There is a case to be made and won here if you only stop the winging and do some positive work. But it is always easier just to carp.
Eurosceptics want to leave regardless of reform, it's about democracy, sovereignty and the right to trade freely across the world.
It must be pointed out that if we stay the dynamic will change completely, that the path to ever closer union will become a reality. It's the responsibility of eurosceptics to point that out.
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Sorry europhobesJosiasJessop said:
You're the first person to mention xenophobia on this thread.isam said:Seems as though the telegraph, the sun, the guardian, and the BBC are all xenophobic kippers getting their excuses in early for the referendum defeat
Who knew?!
As the keenest fan of Farage on here, I'd have thought you'd want to spend a little time considering your position on his 'leadership'.
No it's ok I get it. You are not a conservative and everyone who mocks Cameron's negotiations is a bitter kipper, understood
Farages leadership has taken UKIP from 3% to 12.5% in the GE, won the euros, won a couple of seats in the H of C, improved vote in almost every seat and got us a referendum, so I am ok with it
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Also, if he loses in May then a resignation would have less effect. Right now he's the anointed Tory champion in London. If he loses he's, well, a loser.OldKingCole said:
Hasn't Zac Goldsmith threatened to resign as an MP and fight an "anti' byelection campaign if the runways goes ahead> I doubt though he consider resigning as Mayor of London, so that's clearly the gamble.kle4 said:
Convenient that it also gives the opportunity to kick the can down the road to try to avoid a politically impactful decision then.Charles said:
Heathrow's not really the government's fault (although they should change the rules).blackburn63 said:
Mr indigo are you Douglas Carswell?Indigo said:
A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.JosiasJessop said:
You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.blackburn63 said:Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants
I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.
The eurosceptics in the Conservative party regard Cameron as being thoroughly untrustworthy, this sham of renegotiations is going to expose him completely. That's not to say we'll leave, but it will discredit Cameron in the way plenty of us have been pointing out for years.
The Heathrow farce is further evidence.
Unfortunately the concept of judicial review - intended to avoid unfair and perverse decisions by the executive - has been stretched beyond all recognition by campaigners.
With the Heathrow activists threatening court action because inadequate analysis of environmental and noise impact of a third runway had been performed, unfortunately the government needs to do the extra work. If they didn't, it would go to court, be delayed & then there would be a good chance they'd need to do the extra work anyway
Gutless. Or incompetent in not being in a position to take the decision yet.0 -
What is the alternative and how will it be better for the UK? The argument that the dynamics and future direction of the EU has been set by the creation and survival of the Euro (despite all the certainties of the sceptics to the contrary) is really overwhelming. It is very far from an ideal scenario for us. But, as we saw in Scotland, there has to be a credible choice. If there is not we will take the deal on offer no matter how disappointing it is.blackburn63 said:
That works both ways, Cameron has said he wants to stay in a reformed EU, it is entirely legitimate to question what those reforms are and what his stance is if he fails to achieve them.DavidL said:The Conservative party and Cameron are giving people the first choice about membership that the UK public have had in more than 40 years. I find all this moaning by conspiracy theorists about how that choice is supposedly going to be rigged quite pathetic and, as an agnostic on the matter, more than a bit off putting.
We can all judge the package when we have it. It will either be adequate or it will not. Kippers and Euro phobes alike would be making a much better use of their considerable energy by working up and agreeing alternatives to membership and making a positive case for them in the media and elsewhere. I, for one, am seriously interested in what that alternative might be because the present situation is unsatisfactory and it is unlikely that Cameron will be able to ensure we have adequate protections for our key industries in the future.
So we have the choice of an ok to bad deal in or a completely (as yet) undefined out. Get on with it. There is a case to be made and won here if you only stop the winging and do some positive work. But it is always easier just to carp.
Eurosceptics want to leave regardless of reform, it's about democracy, sovereignty and the right to trade freely across the world.
It must be pointed out that if we stay the dynamic will change completely, that the path to ever closer union will become a reality. It's the responsibility of eurosceptics to point that out.0
