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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The latest PB/Polling Matters podcast looks at whether Don

SystemSystem Posts: 12,222
edited December 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The latest PB/Polling Matters podcast looks at whether Donald Trump can really do it

On this week’s PB/Polling Matters podcast Keiran talks Trump with Ariel Edwards-Levy of the Huffington Post USA. His recent comments on Muslims have caused an international furor and yet his popularity (at least in the GOP) seems undiminished. Should we start getting used to the idea of President Trump?

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    First! Thanks for these. Look forward to listening to this episode.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    Of core snot!

    That's this thread sorted. Next!
  • That's what happens when you treat yourself to spaghetti on toast at this hour of the morning ..... you lose out. Drat!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046

    That's what happens when you treat yourself to spaghetti on toast at this hour of the morning ..... you lose out. Drat!

    Ahhhh... I feel more content now than I have for a long time. :):D
  • RobD said:

    That's what happens when you treat yourself to spaghetti on toast at this hour of the morning ..... you lose out. Drat!

    Ahhhh... I feel more content now than I have for a long time. :):D
    Rob - I'm only here to make you happy (occasionally).
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046

    RobD said:

    That's what happens when you treat yourself to spaghetti on toast at this hour of the morning ..... you lose out. Drat!

    Ahhhh... I feel more content now than I have for a long time. :):D
    Rob - I'm only here to make you happy (occasionally).
    Ah, you were conveniently away from the computer, allowing my to snipe first. I am in your debt ;)
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,572
    Trump's figures seem very driven by hitting the news - I wonder if there's still an element of candidate recognition there. If American voters are like Brits (and I realise that's a dangerous assumption) they'll be struggling to keep track of all the candidates, and Trump certainly stands out as the guy everyone's talking about. Would a "Do you prefer Rubio, Cruz, Carson or Kasich?" poll get a lots of "Don't knows"? If so, there's hope for an anti-Trump to come through, just by focusing attention on himself.

    Interesting Blantyre first prefs on the last thread - despite Dair's chaff, I'd think the SNP will have been surprised not to come first on recent trends. In general Lab/Lib performance on the results looks OK (the LibDem gain is startling) while UKIP performance looks weak again. But let's see the full results when Harry is able to - speedy recovery, by the way, Harry, we need you!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    @RobD

    Don't know if you saw my post the other day - am in SF 2nd week of January (10-14) if you fancy a quick drink
  • FPT Best wishes for a speedy recovery to HH - you do a terrific job, mate.
  • UKIP continue to fade in yesterday's by-elections:

    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 7h7 hours ago
    Huntingdon East (Huntingdonshire) result:
    LDEM: 45.0% (+13.8)
    CON: 31.8% (+5.9)
    UKIP: 15.6% (-16.9)
    LAB: 7.5% (-2.9)

    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 7h7 hours ago
    Liberal Democrat GAIN Huntingdon East (Huntingdonshire) from UKIP.
  • Like Keiran, I think that Ted Cruz looks well-placed at present. And the public still haven't properly tuned in yet so I'm far from convinced that Donald Trump's popularity is necessarily yet meaningful.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,687
    Charles said:

    @RobD

    Don't know if you saw my post the other day - am in SF 2nd week of January (10-14) if you fancy a quick drink

    I'm at CES in Vegas the week before...
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    Like Keiran, I think that Ted Cruz looks well-placed at present. And the public still haven't properly tuned in yet so I'm far from convinced that Donald Trump's popularity is necessarily yet meaningful.

    I'm far from convincef that Trump won't run regardless..

    A lead for so long, that much ego and money. He's a runner, Republican or independent.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    @RobD

    Don't know if you saw my post the other day - am in SF 2nd week of January (10-14) if you fancy a quick drink

    I'm at CES in Vegas the week before...
    Am in SoCal that week if you want to pass by some civilisation
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,687
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    @RobD

    Don't know if you saw my post the other day - am in SF 2nd week of January (10-14) if you fancy a quick drink

    I'm at CES in Vegas the week before...
    Am in SoCal that week if you want to pass by some civilisation
    :-)

    is there any skiing in SoCal?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040
    philiph said:

    Like Keiran, I think that Ted Cruz looks well-placed at present. And the public still haven't properly tuned in yet so I'm far from convinced that Donald Trump's popularity is necessarily yet meaningful.

    I'm far from convincef that Trump won't run regardless..

    A lead for so long, that much ego and money. He's a runner, Republican or independent.
    It depends why and how he loses that lead if and when he does. I suspect that there is an element of self destruct about the Donald. It has taken longer than I expected but I still think it will come.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    Charles said:

    @RobD

    Don't know if you saw my post the other day - am in SF 2nd week of January (10-14) if you fancy a quick drink

    Hi Charles,
    Not sure of my schedule for the New Years yet, but will keep that week in mind! Up to anything nice?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040
    This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    DavidL said:

    This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.

    Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of it ;):p
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040
    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.

    Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of it ;):p
    Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.

    Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of it ;):p
    Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.
    Who knows, we may enjoy the numerous threads on Russian local elections which are bound to come. Harry's got his work cut out for him researching all those Russian wards!
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    All very Alien vs Predator http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/12044964/Mexican-drug-lord-El-Chapo-vows-to-destroy-Islamic-State.html

    Cartel lords seem to be well suited to killing ISIS - incredibly brutal and awash with money
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    The POTUS election is looking very much like Snow White vs the Seven Dwarves, except that all the Dwarves are Dopey. There is only going to be one winner.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,687

    The POTUS election is looking very much like Snow White vs the Seven Dwarves, except that all the Dwarves are Dopey. There is only going to be one winner.

    Yes, and it won't be us.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040

    The POTUS election is looking very much like Snow White vs the Seven Dwarves, except that all the Dwarves are Dopey. There is only going to be one winner.

    I still have a sneaking regard for Hilary, if not as much as 8 years ago when she stood against Obama, but Snow White she isn't.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/12043443/Terror-arrests-hit-record-levels-as-women-and-teenagers-lured-by-Isil.html
    The number of terror suspects being arrested has risen by a third to record levels in just a year as women and young teenagers are increasingly lured by Isil, figures show.

    Police detained 315 people under terror laws in the year to September compared with 235 in the previous 12 months, Home Office statistics show. The sharp rise was driven in part by a doubling of the number of women and youngsters aged under 18 held.

    • Syria-related terror arrests increase sixfold in a year

    There is also a worrying growth in the proportion of home grown fanatics with three quarters of those arrested British or dual national. The emergence of Isil in Syria and Iraq and its international reach is blamed for the huge increases in arrests and operations by the police and security agencies.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,539

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited December 2015
    Apols for posting again - but this trenchant writing was on a Nationalist blog:

    Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Scotland: The Slightly Less English British Franchise....

    The Franchise where corporation tax is lower than it is in London. The Franchise where you can still go to jail for possessing cannabis, but hey, didn’t we show those English twats who is boss? The Franchise where we still operate on the same moral playing field as the union we so denounce – politically, economically and militarily insulated by NATO and the EU – while believing ourselves to be morally superior.

    Scotland: The Slightly Less English British Franchise where being Scottish alone is what makes us moral. Where being Scottish in and of itself trumps all else. Where being Scottish is its own justification and anybody with anything critical to say is a vicious nonce apologist.


    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2015/12/07/scotland-the-utopia-that-never-was/
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040
    The most remarkable story of the day is surely Corbyn writing to the Judge asking for bail for a convicted fraudster who exploited vulnerable and elderly people, at least partly to fund IS. Is the man really a complete moron? What on earth was going through his head?

    If he is lucky people will be more focussed on Christmas and organising their social lives through PB but really, what a crazy thing to do, even by his own exalted standards. He is still in that irrelevant but right on back bencher bubble and shows no desire to leave it.
  • DavidL said:

    The most remarkable story of the day is surely Corbyn writing to the Judge asking for bail for a convicted fraudster who exploited vulnerable and elderly people, at least partly to fund IS. Is the man really a complete moron? What on earth was going through his head?

    If he is lucky people will be more focussed on Christmas and organising their social lives through PB but really, what a crazy thing to do, even by his own exalted standards. He is still in that irrelevant but right on back bencher bubble and shows no desire to leave it.

    My guess is that Corbyn was not given a full story and felt a natural sympathy towards someone who was described to him as a "freedom fighter" or some such. Of course, in normal circumstances this would be a resignation issue. But we are way beyond that now. The cult would not hear of it.

  • DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.

    Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of it ;):p
    Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.
    Alas no honey trap.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/12043443/Terror-arrests-hit-record-levels-as-women-and-teenagers-lured-by-Isil.html

    The number of terror suspects being arrested has risen by a third to record levels in just a year as women and young teenagers are increasingly lured by Isil, figures show.

    Police detained 315 people under terror laws in the year to September compared with 235 in the previous 12 months, Home Office statistics show. The sharp rise was driven in part by a doubling of the number of women and youngsters aged under 18 held.

    • Syria-related terror arrests increase sixfold in a year

    There is also a worrying growth in the proportion of home grown fanatics with three quarters of those arrested British or dual national. The emergence of Isil in Syria and Iraq and its international reach is blamed for the huge increases in arrests and operations by the police and security agencies.
    The numbers are high but apparently (from memory) only 39% of these people arrested are actually ever charged with anything and even fewer actually convicted. This is much lower than for any other category of crime.

    It seems arrest is being used as an early disrupter/discouragement strategy. I don't have any real problem with that but it can distort the picture a bit.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,539

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.

    Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of it ;):p
    Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.
    Alas no honey trap.
    But you would say that wouldn't you, Comrade!
  • Good morning, everyone.

    It's possible Trump could do it. Worse leaders have ascended to lead nations. Or political parties.

    Mr. L, I agree. Apparently the Corbyn connection was made on the BBC news at six, but they'd magically forgotten about it in time for the news at ten. Not sure why.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.

    Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of it ;):p
    Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.
    Alas no honey trap.
    But hopefully some decent canopies?
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Well, that's all right then. Do MPs routinely write bail support letters without asking the police what the person was being charged with? This chappy seems to have ticked almost every Bad Apple box. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/12044641/Jeremy-Corbyn-writes-letter-pleading-for-fraudster-Mohamed-Dahir-to-be-freed-for-Christmas.html
    Dahir’s relatives, who are from Somalia, last night claimed that Mr Corbyn, their local MP, is a “family friend” and that they have known him for “many years”.

    Mr Corbyn's spokesman said: "Jeremy Corbyn condemns the actions of his constituent as appalling acts against vulnerable people and wholly unacceptable." Sources claimed when he wrote the letter he was unaware of the alleged links to terror. They added: "Jeremy was approached by his constituent prior to the trial, and wrote a letter on his behalf as is standard for a constituency MP.

    "This was before the full facts of the case had emerged...
    DavidL said:

    The most remarkable story of the day is surely Corbyn writing to the Judge asking for bail for a convicted fraudster who exploited vulnerable and elderly people, at least partly to fund IS. Is the man really a complete moron? What on earth was going through his head?

    If he is lucky people will be more focussed on Christmas and organising their social lives through PB but really, what a crazy thing to do, even by his own exalted standards. He is still in that irrelevant but right on back bencher bubble and shows no desire to leave it.

  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I think comparing the arrest/charge rates is a red herring myself. These aren't your average crimes and involve a great deal of conspiracy.
    DavidL said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/12043443/Terror-arrests-hit-record-levels-as-women-and-teenagers-lured-by-Isil.html

    The number of terror suspects being arrested has risen by a third to record levels in just a year as women and young teenagers are increasingly lured by Isil, figures show.

    Police detained 315 people under terror laws in the year to September compared with 235 in the previous 12 months, Home Office statistics show. The sharp rise was driven in part by a doubling of the number of women and youngsters aged under 18 held.

    • Syria-related terror arrests increase sixfold in a year

    There is also a worrying growth in the proportion of home grown fanatics with three quarters of those arrested British or dual national. The emergence of Isil in Syria and Iraq and its international reach is blamed for the huge increases in arrests and operations by the police and security agencies.
    The numbers are high but apparently (from memory) only 39% of these people arrested are actually ever charged with anything and even fewer actually convicted. This is much lower than for any other category of crime.

    It seems arrest is being used as an early disrupter/discouragement strategy. I don't have any real problem with that but it can distort the picture a bit.

  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.

    As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.
  • Miss Plato, is Corbyn a fool or a knave? That is the question.
  • DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.

    Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of it ;):p
    Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.
    Alas no honey trap.
    But you would say that wouldn't you, Comrade!
    My User account shows I left Embassy on my own at 7.56pm for St Pancras.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Someone who shouldn't be in the Labour Party, nevermind leading it.

    Miss Plato, is Corbyn a fool or a knave? That is the question.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,049
    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.

    Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of it ;):p
    do we know if they turned him?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    @RobD

    Don't know if you saw my post the other day - am in SF 2nd week of January (10-14) if you fancy a quick drink

    I'm at CES in Vegas the week before...
    Am in SoCal that week if you want to pass by some civilisation
    :-)

    is there any skiing in SoCal?
    There's Big Bear - it's pretty good, but limited in scope.

    To be honest, I'd head over to Teleride if that's what you're looking for
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    If @rcs1000 is about - on your recommendation, I slogged through 7 episodes of Jennifer Jones. I'd give it a 7/10. I'm clearly missing what made you such a fan. I'll finish it only because I'm stubborn :wink:
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    @RobD

    Don't know if you saw my post the other day - am in SF 2nd week of January (10-14) if you fancy a quick drink

    Hi Charles,
    Not sure of my schedule for the New Years yet, but will keep that week in mind! Up to anything nice?
    JPM conference - a lot of my industry migrates to SF for a few days in January, so I'm going there to catch up with old friends
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Indigo said:

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.
    Mr indigo are you Douglas Carswell?

    The eurosceptics in the Conservative party regard Cameron as being thoroughly untrustworthy, this sham of renegotiations is going to expose him completely. That's not to say we'll leave, but it will discredit Cameron in the way plenty of us have been pointing out for years.

    The Heathrow farce is further evidence.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    edited December 2015

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.

    As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.

    The real fools are surely those who thought that Cameron was genuinely seeking anything other than a process with other EU countries that would enable him to say he had achieved his objectives and so would campaign for a Remain vote.

  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.

    As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.

    The real fools are those who thought that Cameron was genuinely seeking anything other than a process with other EU countries that would enable him to say he had achieved his objectives and so would campaign for a Remain vote.

    Well quite, stand up pb Tories.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.

    Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of it ;):p
    Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.
    Alas no honey trap.
    But you would say that wouldn't you, Comrade!
    My User account shows I left Embassy on my own at 7.56pm for St Pancras.
    IT records are easy to manipulate...
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.

    Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of it ;):p
    Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.
    Alas no honey trap.
    But hopefully some decent canopies?

    If given a choice, I, too, would always prefer a good roof over tasty finger food at a cocktail reception

  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited December 2015

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.

    As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.

    The real fools are those who thought that Cameron was genuinely seeking anything other than a process with other EU countries that would enable him to say he had achieved his objectives and so would campaign for a Remain vote.

    Well quite, stand up pb Tories.

    To be fair if Hannan or Carswell were leading the kippers instead of Farage a lot more of us would have voted purple, but the bluster and unpleasant dog whistles is a bit off-putting, that, and knowing that the kippers under Farage haven't a hope in hell of winning anything of substance because he pisses off too many people.

    Anyway, most PBTories are "undecided" like Mr Nabavi and TSE, which I think is a nice way of saying they are waiting for the email from CCHQ telling them which way to vote!
  • DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.

    Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of it ;):p
    Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.
    Alas no honey trap.
    Arf, and commiserations – how was the vodka, tovarish?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366

    Can I ask a serious question about Heathrow vs Gatwick? Yes, I could google, but I suspect a more measured answer is available here. If pollution (chemical and noise) is the issue, why is it not an issue at Gatwick too?. Is Croydon not built up?

    Wherever a new runway is built, it will cause distress to the locals, or be so far away, it would be worthy of Ryanair. Why is Heathrow special?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,049

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.

    As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.

    The real fools are those who thought that Cameron was genuinely seeking anything other than a process with other EU countries that would enable him to say he had achieved his objectives and so would campaign for a Remain vote.

    Well quite, stand up pb Tories.

    There is definitely a feeling of drift atm with the government. EU, LHR, junior doctors, tax credits...

    People have taken the economic recovery for granted and might be forgiven for asking: what is this government actually doing?

    Of course the answer: "it is being not a Jeremy Corbyn-led Labour Party" is more than sufficient for the moment.

    But the risk is that Lab comes to its senses in which case I feel the Cons would get massacred.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Indigo said:

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.

    As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.

    The real fools are those who thought that Cameron was genuinely seeking anything other than a process with other EU countries that would enable him to say he had achieved his objectives and so would campaign for a Remain vote.

    Well quite, stand up pb Tories.

    To be fair if Hannan or Carswell were leading the kippers instead of Farage a lot more of us would have voted purple, but the bluster and unpleasant dog whistles is a bit off-putting, that, and knowing that the kippers under Farage haven't a hope in hell of winning anything of substance because he pisses off too many people.

    Anyway, most PBTories are "undecided" like Mr Nabavi and TSE, which I think is a nice way of saying they are waiting for the email from CCHQ telling them which way to vote!
    That's an interesting point, hopefully at some stage we'll see if it's true. Nigel got 4m votes, a great achievement, as things stand that will be less in 2020.

    You misunderstand Mr Nabavi, he has stated unequivocally that he is not tribal.
  • CD13 said:


    Can I ask a serious question about Heathrow vs Gatwick? Yes, I could google, but I suspect a more measured answer is available here. If pollution (chemical and noise) is the issue, why is it not an issue at Gatwick too?. Is Croydon not built up?

    Wherever a new runway is built, it will cause distress to the locals, or be so far away, it would be worthy of Ryanair. Why is Heathrow special?

    It is, but the area around Heathrow is much more built up with approach flightpaths over West London/Slough & Windsor - much more greenery around Gatwick where much of the approach is over open country.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    Welcome back comrade Smithson!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Indigo said:

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.
    Mr indigo are you Douglas Carswell?

    The eurosceptics in the Conservative party regard Cameron as being thoroughly untrustworthy, this sham of renegotiations is going to expose him completely. That's not to say we'll leave, but it will discredit Cameron in the way plenty of us have been pointing out for years.

    The Heathrow farce is further evidence.

    Heathrow's not really the government's fault (although they should change the rules).

    Unfortunately the concept of judicial review - intended to avoid unfair and perverse decisions by the executive - has been stretched beyond all recognition by campaigners.

    With the Heathrow activists threatening court action because inadequate analysis of environmental and noise impact of a third runway had been performed, unfortunately the government needs to do the extra work. If they didn't, it would go to court, be delayed & then there would be a good chance they'd need to do the extra work anyway
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Ms Vance,

    I see. Thank you.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,931
    Indigo said:

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.
    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.

    As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.

    The real fools are those who thought that Cameron was genuinely seeking anything other than a process with other EU countries that would enable him to say he had achieved his objectives and so would campaign for a Remain vote.

    Well quite, stand up pb Tories.

    To be fair if Hannan or Carswell were leading the kippers instead of Farage a lot more of us would have voted purple, but the bluster and unpleasant dog whistles is a bit off-putting, that, and knowing that the kippers under Farage haven't a hope in hell of winning anything of substance because he pisses off too many people.

    Anyway, most PBTories are "undecided" like Mr Nabavi and TSE, which I think is a nice way of saying they are waiting for the email from CCHQ telling them which way to vote!

    It wouldn't have mattered who was leading UKIP, the same process would have happened. Dan Hannan would probably have been portrayed as a nasty Thatcherite elitist, Carswell, who is far less articulate than Farage, would have just been pres mincemeat.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    I can not fathom how anyone believes the disputes over EU benefits are genuine. Cameron negotiated with other EU leaders for months and months before he wrote the letter. Any humiliating surrender he needed to make has already been done. Given he was willing to fold so easily, and to such little scrutiny from the compliant media, on migration caps, the CFP, the CAP, the social chapter, the EU budget, treaty change etc, why on Earth would he have put anything in doubt in such a publicly available document? You'd have to be even more gullible to believe it when ministers are on record as saying there would be a manufactured row!

    The four demands are actually only two demands: a non-EZ veto and a four year ban on benefits. They have already been won. They were due to be announced in December but the Lords messing about has meant the shine of the false victory would have worn off by the time of the vote. So they are now delaying until the vote is in law. Then there will be a last minute victory by Cameron, which the Europhile and Tory loyalist press will report as an unexpected victory over hard opposition. The word Thatcherite might even be used. Then there will be a rush to vote before it unravels as having no effect on immigration whatsoever.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.

    As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.

    The real fools are those who thought that Cameron was genuinely seeking anything other than a process with other EU countries that would enable him to say he had achieved his objectives and so would campaign for a Remain vote.

    Well quite, stand up pb Tories.

    All 4 people in the this week studio last night were laughing laughing at the prospect that Cameron's negotiations might go well. Jess Phillips and the SNP Lady were understandable, but Portillo and Neil are not unsympathetic to the Tories

    As Portillo said, Cameron told everyone at the start that he wanted Britain to remain, and that meant any negotiation was doomed
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    Perhaps Cameron is an arch-eurosceptic in disguise, and he's being crap at negotiations so he can say "F it, we're out"... perhaps :D
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,049
    Socrates said:

    I can not fathom how anyone believes the disputes over EU benefits are genuine. Cameron negotiated with other EU leaders for months and months before he wrote the letter. Any humiliating surrender he needed to make has already been done. Given he was willing to fold so easily, and to such little scrutiny from the compliant media, on migration caps, the CFP, the CAP, the social chapter, the EU budget, treaty change etc, why on Earth would he have put anything in doubt in such a publicly available document? You'd have to be even more gullible to believe it when ministers are on record as saying there would be a manufactured row!

    The four demands are actually only two demands: a non-EZ veto and a four year ban on benefits. They have already been won. They were due to be announced in December but the Lords messing about has meant the shine of the false victory would have worn off by the time of the vote. So they are now delaying until the vote is in law. Then there will be a last minute victory by Cameron, which the Europhile and Tory loyalist press will report as an unexpected victory over hard opposition. The word Thatcherite might even be used. Then there will be a rush to vote before it unravels as having no effect on immigration whatsoever.

    I am uncomfortable with the view that everyone else will be swayed by a "compliant media", whilst we, the better informed, call us more intelligent, will see through it all with our our laser-like acute analysis.

    Echoes of CiF and the great Murdoch conspiracy in such a proposition.

    (Welcome back, btw.)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,985
    edited December 2015
    Welcome back, Mr. Socrates.

    The negotiation is, I suspect, over the piece of paper Cameron will get, which he will claim is a great victory.

    A few months ago some here were suggesting he might go for Out, but I remained as sceptical then as I am now.

    Edited extra bit: Mr. D, if he is, it's a very good disguise.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,597
    Charles said:

    Indigo said:

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.
    Mr indigo are you Douglas Carswell?

    The eurosceptics in the Conservative party regard Cameron as being thoroughly untrustworthy, this sham of renegotiations is going to expose him completely. That's not to say we'll leave, but it will discredit Cameron in the way plenty of us have been pointing out for years.

    The Heathrow farce is further evidence.

    Heathrow's not really the government's fault (although they should change the rules).

    Unfortunately the concept of judicial review - intended to avoid unfair and perverse decisions by the executive - has been stretched beyond all recognition by campaigners.

    With the Heathrow activists threatening court action because inadequate analysis of environmental and noise impact of a third runway had been performed, unfortunately the government needs to do the extra work. If they didn't, it would go to court, be delayed & then there would be a good chance they'd need to do the extra work anyway
    Convenient that it also gives the opportunity to kick the can down the road to try to avoid a politically impactful decision then.

    Gutless. Or incompetent in not being in a position to take the decision yet.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited December 2015
    TOPPING said:

    Socrates said:

    I can not fathom how anyone believes the disputes over EU benefits are genuine. Cameron negotiated with that everyone else will be swayed by a "compliant media", whilst we, the better informed, call us more intelligent, will see through it all with our our laser-like acute analysis.

    Echoes of CiF and the great Murdoch conspiracy in such a proposition.

    (Welcome back, btw.)

    The Suns lead editorial on Monday absolutely slaughtered Cameron's negotiations... I posted it on here, but looking through my comments it appears to have been deleted

    Edit no it wasn't here it is

    "Cam’s dud deal

    WE must have been overcome by optimism to imagine David Cameron’s EU renegotiation would produce a deal worth a damn.

    Three of the four concessions he asked Brussels for were barely worth the ink.

    The fourth, withholding benefits from EU migrants for four years, sounds significant — but would have a tiny impact on our soaring immigration. The vast majority arrive here not for handouts but for work, as lucrative as possible.

    A handful might reconsider coming if tax credits weren’t on offer . . . but not many. The rising Living Wage would cancel out any disincentive anyway.

    The Prime Minister only cooked this up because he lacked the nerve to demand full and permanent control of our borders, despite the growing strength of our hand as the migrant crisis paralysed the continent.

    Yet we are now led to believe even this is being fought in Brussels.

    Mr Cameron’s bluff about leading the Out campaign if he doesn’t get his way may be being called already.

    But even if he wins this minor tweak, so what? It’s no game-changer.

    He might as well name the referendum date now."


    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/sun_says/6500866/Sun-Says.html
    Flag Quote · Off Topic
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    This site is turning into an upmarket Ashley Madison clone.

    Nothing wrong with a bit of hobnobbing. OGH was at it last night at the Russian Embassy, so I don't see why us proles can't do a bit of it ;):p
    Yeah, I wondered how the honeytrap thing worked out. No doubt Robert can keep us advised.
    Alas no honey trap.
    You would say that, wouldn't you?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,597
    TOPPING said:

    Socrates said:

    I can not fathom how anyone believes the disputes over EU benefits are genuine. Cameron negotiated with other EU leaders for months and months before he wrote the letter. Any humiliating surrender he needed to make has already been done. Given he was willing to fold so easily, and to such little scrutiny from the compliant media, on migration caps, the CFP, the CAP, the social chapter, the EU budget, treaty change etc, why on Earth would he have put anything in doubt in such a publicly available document? You'd have to be even more gullible to believe it when ministers are on record as saying there would be a manufactured row!

    The four demands are actually only two demands: a non-EZ veto and a four year ban on benefits. They have already been won. They were due to be announced in December but the Lords messing about has meant the shine of the false victory would have worn off by the time of the vote. So they are now delaying until the vote is in law. Then there will be a last minute victory by Cameron, which the Europhile and Tory loyalist press will report as an unexpected victory over hard opposition. The word Thatcherite might even be used. Then there will be a rush to vote before it unravels as having no effect on immigration whatsoever.

    I am uncomfortable with the view that everyone else will be swayed by a "compliant media", whilst we, the better informed, call us more intelligent, will see through it all with our our laser-like acute analysis.

    Echoes of CiF and the great Murdoch conspiracy in such a proposition.

    (Welcome back, btw.)
    Your point is precisely even when I was reluctant remainder I thought leave had a good chance winning. There is enough dissent around that the alternate case will get out even when Cameron claims a victory (how credibly, we shall see), and assuming people will be fooled is pessimistic.
  • Indigo said:

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.

    As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.

    The real fools are those who thought that Cameron was genuinely seeking anything other than a process with other EU countries that would enable him to say he had achieved his objectives and so would campaign for a Remain vote.

    Well quite, stand up pb Tories.

    To be fair if Hannan or Carswell were leading the kippers instead of Farage a lot more of us would have voted purple, but the bluster and unpleasant dog whistles is a bit off-putting, that, and knowing that the kippers under Farage haven't a hope in hell of winning anything of substance because he pisses off too many people.
    I very well might have, if he hadn't made a big thing about saying that a very good friend of mine should have been left to die by the NHS.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Indigo said:

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.
    Like the word "Hannanite". Sounds like an 18th century nonconformist sect.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Socrates said:

    I can not fathom how anyone believes the disputes over EU benefits are genuine. Cameron negotiated with other EU leaders for months and months before he wrote the letter. Any humiliating surrender he needed to make has already been done. Given he was willing to fold so easily, and to such little scrutiny from the compliant media, on migration caps, the CFP, the CAP, the social chapter, the EU budget, treaty change etc, why on Earth would he have put anything in doubt in such a publicly available document? You'd have to be even more gullible to believe it when ministers are on record as saying there would be a manufactured row!

    The four demands are actually only two demands: a non-EZ veto and a four year ban on benefits. They have already been won. They were due to be announced in December but the Lords messing about has meant the shine of the false victory would have worn off by the time of the vote. So they are now delaying until the vote is in law. Then there will be a last minute victory by Cameron, which the Europhile and Tory loyalist press will report as an unexpected victory over hard opposition. The word Thatcherite might even be used. Then there will be a rush to vote before it unravels as having no effect on immigration whatsoever.

    Well I was just about to say 'welcome back'!

    Looking over my own shoulder now!!
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited December 2015
    TOPPING said:

    I am uncomfortable with the view that everyone else will be swayed by a "compliant media", whilst we, the better informed, call us more intelligent, will see through it all with our our laser-like acute analysis.

    Echoes of CiF and the great Murdoch conspiracy in such a proposition.

    (Welcome back, btw.)

    It not so much a "swayed by the media" as "not really that interested or listening that closely so only really heard the stories on the TV while eating their dinner, or on the radio while they have their breakfast", ergo they will only hear the BBC views of the negotiations and even if they are smart, they will not have seen a rounded view of the issues. Many people are very clever, but insufficiently interested in politics as to bother with being well informed, their vote is still worth as much as anyone elses.

    Politics thrives on the disinterest of the bulk of the populations, you get endless bullshit like Dave's "cast iron" promises, and his "no ifs, no buts", and most of Osbrown's budgets, which the spin doctors know they will have to back away from once the think tanks have had a look, but the PM launching his manifesto, or the Chancellors budget speech gets a large audience, his spin doctors moving to a more nuanced position on the second page of the politics section of the Telegraph is seem by almost no one. So that man on the streets only sees the bullshit version.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    Indigo said:

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.
    Mr indigo are you Douglas Carswell?

    The eurosceptics in the Conservative party regard Cameron as being thoroughly untrustworthy, this sham of renegotiations is going to expose him completely. That's not to say we'll leave, but it will discredit Cameron in the way plenty of us have been pointing out for years.

    The Heathrow farce is further evidence.

    Heathrow's not really the government's fault (although they should change the rules).

    Unfortunately the concept of judicial review - intended to avoid unfair and perverse decisions by the executive - has been stretched beyond all recognition by campaigners.

    With the Heathrow activists threatening court action because inadequate analysis of environmental and noise impact of a third runway had been performed, unfortunately the government needs to do the extra work. If they didn't, it would go to court, be delayed & then there would be a good chance they'd need to do the extra work anyway
    Convenient that it also gives the opportunity to kick the can down the road to try to avoid a politically impactful decision then.

    Gutless. Or incompetent in not being in a position to take the decision yet.
    The political advantages are a side benefit.

    The choices were making a decision, getting sued, no progress for 6 months and a 50/50 chance of further delay

    Or (b) delay now, do the analysis, get sued, 90/10 chance of being able to progress. With political upside.

    Not gutless, sensible. For a 50 year decision, 6 months is neither here nor there. But they need to reform judicial review (as I've been saying for 5 years)
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Donald Trumps hair finally runs off to seek a better life.....


    http://i.imgur.com/UMCy6Qq.png?1
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Indigo said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am uncomfortable with the view that everyone else will be swayed by a "compliant media", whilst we, the better informed, call us more intelligent, will see through it all with our our laser-like acute analysis.

    Echoes of CiF and the great Murdoch conspiracy in such a proposition.

    (Welcome back, btw.)

    It not so much a "swayed by the media" as "not really that interested or listening that closely so only really heard the stories on the TV while eating their dinner, or on the radio while they have their breakfast", ergo they will only hear the BBC views of the negotiations and even if they are smart, they will not have seen a rounded view of the issues. Many people are very clever, but insufficiently interested in politics as to bother with being well informed, their vote is still worth as much as anyone elses.

    Politics thrives on the disinterest of the bulk of the populations, you get endless bullshit like Dave's "cast iron" promises, and his "no ifs, no buts", and most of Osbrown's budgets, which the spin doctors know they will have to back away from once the think tanks have had a look, but the PM launching his manifesto, or the Chancellors budget speech gets a large audience, his spin doctors moving to a more nuanced position on the second page of the politics section of the Telegraph is seem by almost no one. So that man on the streets only sees the bullshit version.
    Or maybe the Great British Public can weigh up the pros and cons themselves and form their own opinions. Then come to the correct conclusion, they usually do. It all smacks to me of the BOOers getting their excuses in early, a bit like the cybernats.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited December 2015

    Apols for posting again - but this trenchant writing was on a Nationalist blog:

    Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Scotland: The Slightly Less English British Franchise....

    The Franchise where corporation tax is lower than it is in London. The Franchise where you can still go to jail for possessing cannabis, but hey, didn’t we show those English twats who is boss? The Franchise where we still operate on the same moral playing field as the union we so denounce – politically, economically and militarily insulated by NATO and the EU – while believing ourselves to be morally superior.

    Scotland: The Slightly Less English British Franchise where being Scottish alone is what makes us moral. Where being Scottish in and of itself trumps all else. Where being Scottish is its own justification and anybody with anything critical to say is a vicious nonce apologist.


    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2015/12/07/scotland-the-utopia-that-never-was/

    Bella Caledonia is pro Independence not pro SNP. I presume the writer is RISE or SSP.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am uncomfortable with the view that everyone else will be swayed by a "compliant media", whilst we, the better informed, call us more intelligent, will see through it all with our our laser-like acute analysis.

    Echoes of CiF and the great Murdoch conspiracy in such a proposition.

    (Welcome back, btw.)

    It not so much a "swayed by the media" as "not really that interested or listening that closely so only really heard the stories on the TV while eating their dinner, or on the radio while they have their breakfast", ergo they will only hear the BBC views of the negotiations and even if they are smart, they will not have seen a rounded view of the issues. Many people are very clever, but insufficiently interested in politics as to bother with being well informed, their vote is still worth as much as anyone elses.

    Politics thrives on the disinterest of the bulk of the populations, you get endless bullshit like Dave's "cast iron" promises, and his "no ifs, no buts", and most of Osbrown's budgets, which the spin doctors know they will have to back away from once the think tanks have had a look, but the PM launching his manifesto, or the Chancellors budget speech gets a large audience, his spin doctors moving to a more nuanced position on the second page of the politics section of the Telegraph is seem by almost no one. So that man on the streets only sees the bullshit version.
    Or maybe the Great British Public can weigh up the pros and cons themselves and form their own opinions. Then come to the correct conclusion, they usually do. It all smacks to me of the BOOers getting their excuses in early, a bit like the cybernats.
    Ah Mr FoxInSocksEU fancy seeing you here ;) If OUT wins you will be jumping up and down like a maniac complaining that politicians, never mind the public don't know enough for the country to function outside the EU and how it's madness to even consider it :)


  • Plato_Says


    I am rather sympathetic to Corbyn on the fraudster letter. MPs do try to do their best for their constituents and cannot always have the full information available.

    One complication for Labour is their re-action when Nicola Sturgeon got herself into a similar spot of bother a few years back, although in that case there was no alleged extremist connection.

    Labour demanded her head. Salmond very robustly defended his Deputy. Sturgeon apologised and emerged stronger from the episode. Perhaps Corbyn should follow suit and Labour should take more care when demanding resignations in future. They can some back to bite.

    Sturgeon apologises for fraudster letter | Scotland | News
    news.stv.tv/scotland/159695-sturgeon-apologises-for-fraudster-letter/
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Just an observation about this thread. I would like to comment on-topic but I can't listen to a podcast right now. Would it be possible to include a quick summary of the arguments?
  • Miss Lass, problem is that Corbyn's already referred to friends in Hamas and Hezbollah, and he and his chancellor have quoted Hoxha and Mao whilst Livingstone, appointed by Corbyn to a Defence matter, has claimed UK foreign policy absolved the 7/7 bombers of their responsibility.

    Corbyn has a lot of previous which Sturgeon did not.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,749
    Wanderer said:

    Indigo said:

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.
    Like the word "Hannanite". Sounds like an 18th century nonconformist sect.
    Yup.
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    I had enough fish fingers last night to fund Birds Eye of a whole year :-(
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,539
    Indigo said:

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.
    It's not an attempt to deflect anything, yet alone the 'truth' you say above.

    It's a rather direct prod that UKIP are in chaos and losing real elections, just before a referendum that might see their main aim come to fruition. Yet instead of giving positive arguments for leaving the EU, all we get is how beastly Cameron's stitching it up.

    It's like UKIP has given up and are getting their excuses in early. They need a new leader, and fast. It'd been better if they'd got one in May after Farage's repeated failure, but even now someone competent could make a positive difference to their fortunes.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,049
    Indigo said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am uncomfortable with the view that everyone else will be swayed by a "compliant media", whilst we, the better informed, call us more intelligent, will see through it all with our our laser-like acute analysis.

    Echoes of CiF and the great Murdoch conspiracy in such a proposition.

    (Welcome back, btw.)

    It not so much a "swayed by the media" as "not really that interested or listening that closely so only really heard the stories on the TV while eating their dinner, or on the radio while they have their breakfast", ergo they will only hear the BBC views of the negotiations and even if they are smart, they will not have seen a rounded view of the issues. Many people are very clever, but insufficiently interested in politics as to bother with being well informed, their vote is still worth as much as anyone elses.

    Politics thrives on the disinterest of the bulk of the populations, you get endless bullshit like Dave's "cast iron" promises, and his "no ifs, no buts", and most of Osbrown's budgets, which the spin doctors know they will have to back away from once the think tanks have had a look, but the PM launching his manifesto, or the Chancellors budget speech gets a large audience, his spin doctors moving to a more nuanced position on the second page of the politics section of the Telegraph is seem by almost no one. So that man on the streets only sees the bullshit version.
    perhaps a basic competency test for the man on the street before being allowed to vote?
  • Mr. Rog, why the sad face? Was this some sort of cruel and unusual punishment?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,749
    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    Indigo said:

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.
    Mr indigo are you Douglas Carswell?

    The eurosceptics in the Conservative party regard Cameron as being thoroughly untrustworthy, this sham of renegotiations is going to expose him completely. That's not to say we'll leave, but it will discredit Cameron in the way plenty of us have been pointing out for years.

    The Heathrow farce is further evidence.

    Heathrow's not really the government's fault (although they should change the rules).

    Unfortunately the concept of judicial review - intended to avoid unfair and perverse decisions by the executive - has been stretched beyond all recognition by campaigners.

    With the Heathrow activists threatening court action because inadequate analysis of environmental and noise impact of a third runway had been performed, unfortunately the government needs to do the extra work. If they didn't, it would go to court, be delayed & then there would be a good chance they'd need to do the extra work anyway
    Convenient that it also gives the opportunity to kick the can down the road to try to avoid a politically impactful decision then.

    Gutless. Or incompetent in not being in a position to take the decision yet.
    Hasn't Zac Goldsmith threatened to resign as an MP and fight an "anti' byelection campaign if the runways goes ahead> I doubt though he consider resigning as Mayor of London, so that's clearly the gamble.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040
    The Conservative party and Cameron are giving people the first choice about membership that the UK public have had in more than 40 years. I find all this moaning by conspiracy theorists about how that choice is supposedly going to be rigged quite pathetic and, as an agnostic on the matter, more than a bit off putting.

    We can all judge the package when we have it. It will either be adequate or it will not. Kippers and Euro phobes alike would be making a much better use of their considerable energy by working up and agreeing alternatives to membership and making a positive case for them in the media and elsewhere. I, for one, am seriously interested in what that alternative might be because the present situation is unsatisfactory and it is unlikely that Cameron will be able to ensure we have adequate protections for our key industries in the future.

    So we have the choice of an ok to bad deal in or a completely (as yet) undefined out. Get on with it. There is a case to be made and won here if you only stop the winging and do some positive work. But it is always easier just to carp.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,539

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    Predictable response, deflect a big story towards a council by election.

    As uncomfortable as it is for Tories, Cameron is making a fool of himself over the EU, the press are unanimous.
    Firstly, I am not a Conservative.

    Secondly, we're approaching the EU referendum and UKIP are losing ground. As I said above, if you want to leave the EU you might want to address the problems within your own party rather than just bitching about Cameron.

    Sometimes I wonder if a fair few vocal UKIPpers don't actually want to leave the EU ...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Seems as though the telegraph, the sun, the guardian, and the BBC are all xenophobic kippers getting their excuses in early for the referendum defeat

    Who knew?!
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I OD'd on a box of them last week. Urgh hangover :blush:
    Blue_rog said:

    I had enough fish fingers last night to fund Birds Eye of a whole year :-(

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,539
    isam said:

    Seems as though the telegraph, the sun, the guardian, and the BBC are all xenophobic kippers getting their excuses in early for the referendum defeat

    Who knew?!

    You're the first person to mention xenophobia on this thread.

    As the keenest fan of Farage on here, I'd have thought you'd want to spend a little time considering your position on his 'leadership'.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    DavidL said:

    The Conservative party and Cameron are giving people the first choice about membership that the UK public have had in more than 40 years. I find all this moaning by conspiracy theorists about how that choice is supposedly going to be rigged quite pathetic and, as an agnostic on the matter, more than a bit off putting.

    We can all judge the package when we have it. It will either be adequate or it will not. Kippers and Euro phobes alike would be making a much better use of their considerable energy by working up and agreeing alternatives to membership and making a positive case for them in the media and elsewhere. I, for one, am seriously interested in what that alternative might be because the present situation is unsatisfactory and it is unlikely that Cameron will be able to ensure we have adequate protections for our key industries in the future.

    So we have the choice of an ok to bad deal in or a completely (as yet) undefined out. Get on with it. There is a case to be made and won here if you only stop the winging and do some positive work. But it is always easier just to carp.

    That works both ways, Cameron has said he wants to stay in a reformed EU, it is entirely legitimate to question what those reforms are and what his stance is if he fails to achieve them.

    Eurosceptics want to leave regardless of reform, it's about democracy, sovereignty and the right to trade freely across the world.

    It must be pointed out that if we stay the dynamic will change completely, that the path to ever closer union will become a reality. It's the responsibility of eurosceptics to point that out.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited December 2015

    isam said:

    Seems as though the telegraph, the sun, the guardian, and the BBC are all xenophobic kippers getting their excuses in early for the referendum defeat

    Who knew?!

    You're the first person to mention xenophobia on this thread.

    As the keenest fan of Farage on here, I'd have thought you'd want to spend a little time considering your position on his 'leadership'.
    Sorry europhobes

    No it's ok I get it. You are not a conservative and everyone who mocks Cameron's negotiations is a bitter kipper, understood

    Farages leadership has taken UKIP from 3% to 12.5% in the GE, won the euros, won a couple of seats in the H of C, improved vote in almost every seat and got us a referendum, so I am ok with it
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    Indigo said:

    Cameron will be hoping Trump keeps himself in the news, the Telegraph front page refers to the PM as "gutless" while the Guardian reports on his EU "negotiations".

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/10/cameron-compromise-in-work-benefits-ban-eu-migrants

    I'm sure the pack of pb Tories will rush to his defence.

    You might be better off giving some thought to your own party's travails, given UKIP's poor performance last night.
    A rather poor attempt to deflect the basic truth that Cameron is about to bottle even the 4 year benefits position. At the last election as a Hannanite Tory I wavered toward a kipper vote, but eventually stayed blue because I had a brief attack of the vapours and assumed against the evidence that Cameron can be trusted, not a mistake quite a lot of Tory waverers are likely to make again after this debacle, assuming as expected he comes home with a very small bit of tinsel and tries to dress it up as a great success.
    Mr indigo are you Douglas Carswell?

    The eurosceptics in the Conservative party regard Cameron as being thoroughly untrustworthy, this sham of renegotiations is going to expose him completely. That's not to say we'll leave, but it will discredit Cameron in the way plenty of us have been pointing out for years.

    The Heathrow farce is further evidence.

    Heathrow's not really the government's fault (although they should change the rules).

    Unfortunately the concept of judicial review - intended to avoid unfair and perverse decisions by the executive - has been stretched beyond all recognition by campaigners.

    With the Heathrow activists threatening court action because inadequate analysis of environmental and noise impact of a third runway had been performed, unfortunately the government needs to do the extra work. If they didn't, it would go to court, be delayed & then there would be a good chance they'd need to do the extra work anyway
    Convenient that it also gives the opportunity to kick the can down the road to try to avoid a politically impactful decision then.

    Gutless. Or incompetent in not being in a position to take the decision yet.
    Hasn't Zac Goldsmith threatened to resign as an MP and fight an "anti' byelection campaign if the runways goes ahead> I doubt though he consider resigning as Mayor of London, so that's clearly the gamble.
    Also, if he loses in May then a resignation would have less effect. Right now he's the anointed Tory champion in London. If he loses he's, well, a loser.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040

    DavidL said:

    The Conservative party and Cameron are giving people the first choice about membership that the UK public have had in more than 40 years. I find all this moaning by conspiracy theorists about how that choice is supposedly going to be rigged quite pathetic and, as an agnostic on the matter, more than a bit off putting.

    We can all judge the package when we have it. It will either be adequate or it will not. Kippers and Euro phobes alike would be making a much better use of their considerable energy by working up and agreeing alternatives to membership and making a positive case for them in the media and elsewhere. I, for one, am seriously interested in what that alternative might be because the present situation is unsatisfactory and it is unlikely that Cameron will be able to ensure we have adequate protections for our key industries in the future.

    So we have the choice of an ok to bad deal in or a completely (as yet) undefined out. Get on with it. There is a case to be made and won here if you only stop the winging and do some positive work. But it is always easier just to carp.

    That works both ways, Cameron has said he wants to stay in a reformed EU, it is entirely legitimate to question what those reforms are and what his stance is if he fails to achieve them.

    Eurosceptics want to leave regardless of reform, it's about democracy, sovereignty and the right to trade freely across the world.

    It must be pointed out that if we stay the dynamic will change completely, that the path to ever closer union will become a reality. It's the responsibility of eurosceptics to point that out.

    What is the alternative and how will it be better for the UK? The argument that the dynamics and future direction of the EU has been set by the creation and survival of the Euro (despite all the certainties of the sceptics to the contrary) is really overwhelming. It is very far from an ideal scenario for us. But, as we saw in Scotland, there has to be a credible choice. If there is not we will take the deal on offer no matter how disappointing it is.
This discussion has been closed.