politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The 2016 London Mayoral race: Tories open their anti-Sadiq
Options
Comments
-
The police are more or less respected by different people for lots of reasons, but one of the bit ones IMHO is that they re enforcing 'Moral' Crimes as well as real ones. A real one is the use of force in some way Murder, rape, asolte, robbery, and so on, each one has a victim and each one is preserved to be bad by (just about) everybody, regardless of there background, or outlook. Moral crimes are things like dealing and smocking Pot, where everybody is involved voluntarily and therefore can not be described as a victim. some may think this is bad, others won't, and this opinion is not entirely random, instead in some racial/religase groups it as evil, in others it is seen as nothing out of the ordinary. But when the Police try to enforce this prohibition, it will make them disprapotanatly unpopular in some neighbourhoods, and this hostile attitude will prevail even when the police are trying to solve/prevent real crimes, you know the ones with actchall victims.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
Its not a panache, but lets recruit the best possible individuals to be policemen, and then gat them to enforce laws against real crimes, not somebody else's opinion of what is a moral crime!0 -
Chris Bryant did give the Sun some amusing copy:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2440619/Voters-must-give-Chris-Bryant-a-Rhondda-rogering.html0 -
Yes, and as I said in my reply to taffys, part of doing their job is having good relations with communities. If those communities feel the Police represents their best interests, then that helps with those relations. I don't believe that every profession should exactly mirror society, but it should certainly seek to make its appeal as wide as possible, and ask itself why more people of other demographics aren't applying to or succeeding in getting employed there. It is curious as to why, in our society (historically and now) one kind of demographic appears to dominate position of power. And considering there is not anything innately 'better' about that demographic than anyone else, then there is a genuine question as to why that demographic is much more successful than others.Mortimer said:
The police do not need to represent anyone - they just need to do their job. The idea that every profession must be a mirror image of society is the worst kind of identity politics.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.0 -
BigRich said:
This is another amusing economics video.flightpath01 said:TheScreamingEagles said:
If we have a recession, 2020 will be like 1992 with knobs on.Pulpstar said:
The 2015 election was decided off the back of a relatively benign economic background. You know how a recession can change political views.TheScreamingEagles said:Bitter much ?
Ten years of David Cameron makes the case for Jeremy Corbyn better than anyone
It's been ten years of failure and deceit.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2015/12/ten-years-david-cameron-makes-case-jeremy-corbyn-better-anyone
Don't go laying Corbyn next PM at ~ 9-1 just yet...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXcLVDhS8fM0 -
It is not in any way curious.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, and as I said in my reply to taffys, part of doing their job is having good relations with communities. If those communities feel the Police represents their best interests, then that helps with those relations. I don't believe that every profession should exactly mirror society, but it should certainly seek to make its appeal as wide as possible, and ask itself why more people of other demographics aren't applying to or succeeding in getting employed there. It is curious as to why, in our society (historically and now) one kind of demographic appears to dominate position of power. And considering there is not anything innately 'better' about that demographic than anyone else, then there is a genuine question as to why that demographic is much more successful than others.Mortimer said:
The police do not need to represent anyone - they just need to do their job. The idea that every profession must be a mirror image of society is the worst kind of identity politics.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
The middle classes dominate positions in our political economy and have done for over a century.
Because they generally have the combination of education and motivation that promotes aspiration and civic involvement.
0 -
Really? Really??? Just reread that post - "I instinctively knew that person was a Muslim like me."The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.
Let's see: "I instinctively knew that black person over there was up to no good. It's a subtle thing I have." Or "I instinctively felt that that Asian man over there with a rucksack on the tube was a risk."
For God's sake!: it's exactly that sort of approach which in earlier years (think Brixton riots and the Scarman Report) got the police into trouble because they made assumptions about people based on the colour of their skin and a policeman's "instinct" which often turned out to be based on prejudice rather than anything else. And now you want to reintroduce all that but with religion.
Unbelievable, really.
The police are not there to make a community feel good. They are there to make the people they police feel safe and secure. They are then to make them feel that when bad stuff happens they will react quickly and decisively and effectively. They want the police not to hold off dealing with bad people because they are like them and the police value being liked over enforcing the law and keeping the peace. They want them not to hold off because the police are scared of being accused of racism, which has stupidly been elevated - for a non-Christian country, we are now told - into The Original Mortal Sin, or islamophobia or any of the other phobias and isms we are told to tiptoe around. They do not want the police being scared to investigate matters because of some cultural, religious or other sensitivity. They want the police to do their job, for God's sake.
The way for the police to earn the trust of everyone in London - except for the criminals who ought to bloody fear them - is by appointing the best and most trustworthy people there are, and by being good at their job and doing it in a trustworthy way.0 -
And, why does the community relations have to be anything other than between police and human beings?The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, and as I said in my reply to taffys, part of doing their job is having good relations with communities. If those communities feel the Police represents their best interests, then that helps with those relations. I don't believe that every profession should exactly mirror society, but it should certainly seek to make its appeal as wide as possible, and ask itself why more people of other demographics aren't applying to or succeeding in getting employed there. It is curious as to why, in our society (historically and now) one kind of demographic appears to dominate position of power. And considering there is not anything innately 'better' about that demographic than anyone else, then there is a genuine question as to why that demographic is much more successful than others.Mortimer said:
The police do not need to represent anyone - they just need to do their job. The idea that every profession must be a mirror image of society is the worst kind of identity politics.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
0 -
"The left is to blame for the creation of Donald Trump" — Douglas Murray
http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/12/the-left-is-to-blame-for-the-creation-of-donald-trump/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter0 -
Hear, hear!Cyclefree said:
Really? Really??? Just reread that post - "I instinctively knew that person was a Muslim like me."The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'... what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.
Let's see: "I instinctively knew that black person over there was up to no good. It's a subtle thing I have." Or "I instinctively felt that that Asian man over there with a rucksack on the tube was a risk."
For God's sake!: it's exactly that sort of approach which in earlier years (think Brixton riots and the Scarman Report) got the police into trouble because they made assumptions about people based on the colour of their skin and a policeman's "instinct" which often turned out to be based on prejudice rather than anything else. And now you want to reintroduce all that but with religion.
Unbelievable, really.
The police are not there to make a community feel good. They are there to make the people they police feel safe and secure. They are then to make them feel that when bad stuff happens they will react quickly and decisively and effectively. They want the police not to hold off dealing with bad people because they are like them and the police value being liked over enforcing the law and keeping the peace. They want them not to hold off because the police are scared of being accused of racism, which has stupidly been elevated - for a non-Christian country, we are now told - into The Original Mortal Sin, or islamophobia or any of the other phobias and isms we are told to tiptoe around. They do not want the police being scared to investigate matters because of some cultural, religious or other sensitivity. They want the police to do their job, for God's sake.
The way for the police to earn the trust of everyone in London - except for the criminals who ought to bloody fear them - is by appointing the best and most trustworthy people there are, and by being good at their job and doing it in a trustworthy way.
0 -
I was actually thinking of straight, white, males who come from upper to middle class backgrounds. But it is curious, how one specific demographic should have better education, better motivation, better aspiration, and better civic involvement. And how, that should just happen to transfer to the males of that demographic particularly, given that despite the improvement of women's position in society, they are not represented much in positions of power as well - and women come from middle class backgrounds as much as men do.Mortimer said:
It is not in any way curious.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, and as I said in my reply to taffys, part of doing their job is having good relations with communities. If those communities feel the Police represents their best interests, then that helps with those relations. I don't believe that every profession should exactly mirror society, but it should certainly seek to make its appeal as wide as possible, and ask itself why more people of other demographics aren't applying to or succeeding in getting employed there. It is curious as to why, in our society (historically and now) one kind of demographic appears to dominate position of power. And considering there is not anything innately 'better' about that demographic than anyone else, then there is a genuine question as to why that demographic is much more successful than others.Mortimer said:
The police do not need to represent anyone - they just need to do their job. The idea that every profession must be a mirror image of society is the worst kind of identity politics.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
The middle classes dominate positions in our political economy and have done for over a century.
Because they are generally have the combination of education and motivation that promotes aspiration and civic involvement.0 -
A great many of my Indian friends were brought up by parents who wanted them to become accountants, lawyers, doctors, etc. Becoming a police officer never entered the equation. It is therefore easy to see why British Indians are underrepresented in the police due to upbringing.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, and as I said in my reply to taffys, part of doing their job is having good relations with communities. If those communities feel the Police represents their best interests, then that helps with those relations. I don't believe that every profession should exactly mirror society, but it should certainly seek to make its appeal as wide as possible, and ask itself why more people of other demographics aren't applying to or succeeding in getting employed there. It is curious as to why, in our society (historically and now) one kind of demographic appears to dominate position of power. And considering there is not anything innately 'better' about that demographic than anyone else, then there is a genuine question as to why that demographic is much more successful than others.Mortimer said:
The police do not need to represent anyone - they just need to do their job. The idea that every profession must be a mirror image of society is the worst kind of identity politics.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
I believe the Met Police have recently dropped the requirement for applicants to be criminal conviction free in order to appeal to "a wider range of people". I have been told by a former police officer that when a police officer gives evidence in court they need to/may be asked about prior convictions. A police officer with a conviction giving evidence in court could be hugely damaging.
Same goes for removing the height restriction to recruit more women. If they increased the fitness requirements this would not be a problem. However, they did not and now we enjoy the protection of unfit five foot nothing weaklings.
If you want the London communities to be represented you will have to accept that there will be a lower standard of policing.0 -
The trust was lost by how the police behaved.The_Apocalypse said:
Again see my reply to @taffysMP_SE said:
The purpose of the police is to uphold the law and maintain order not engage in identity politics.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
@taffys And if the police hadn't had an extensive history of racism in recent decades towards minorities in this country, that'd be a fine expectation. But the police have, in that history of racism - epitomised by the Stephen Lawrence case - damaged that relationship. And while most of the country is white, London especially is far more diverse.
If you lived in Nigeria and there was a white community, and people began discriminating against you, I'd expect that the Police would have to do something to restore that trust back, and re-build relationships.
So the police restore trust not by how they look. But by how they - all of them, whatever they look like - behave.
How difficult, really, is it to understand this point?
0 -
Most of the middle class women I know are far too sensible to want to be either policemen or politicians.The_Apocalypse said:
I was actually thinking of straight, white, males who come from upper to middle class backgrounds. But it is curious, how one specific demographic should have better education, better motivation, better aspiration, and better civic involvement. And how, that should just happen to transfer to the males of that demographic particularly, given that despite the improvement of women's position in society, they are not represented much in positions of power as well - and women come from middle class backgrounds as much as men do.Mortimer said:
It is not in any way curious.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, and as I said in my reply to taffys, part of doing their job is having good relations with communities. If those communities feel the Police represents their best interests, then that helps with those relations. I don't believe that every profession should exactly mirror society, but it should certainly seek to make its appeal as wide as possible, and ask itself why more people of other demographics aren't applying to or succeeding in getting employed there. It is curious as to why, in our society (historically and now) one kind of demographic appears to dominate position of power. And considering there is not anything innately 'better' about that demographic than anyone else, then there is a genuine question as to why that demographic is much more successful than others.Mortimer said:
The police do not need to represent anyone - they just need to do their job. The idea that every profession must be a mirror image of society is the worst kind of identity politics.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
The middle classes dominate positions in our political economy and have done for over a century.
Because they are generally have the combination of education and motivation that promotes aspiration and civic involvement.
0 -
Straw-men galore. No-one's saying this is about "making the community feel good": it's about the practical point of the police being effective, and in my view they can only be effective if the majority of the law-abiding public has confidence that the police are "on their side".Cyclefree said:
The police are not there to make a community feel good. They are there to make the people they police feel safe and secure. They are then to make them feel that when bad stuff happens they will react quickly and decisively and effectively. They want the police not to hold off dealing with bad people because they are like them and the police value being liked over enforcing the law and keeping the peace. They want them not to hold off because the police are scared of being accused of racism, which has stupidly been elevated - for a non-Christian country, we are now told - into The Original Mortal Sin, or islamophobia or any of the other phobias and isms we are told to tiptoe around. They do not want the police being scared to investigate matters because of some cultural, religious or other sensitivity. They want the police to do their job, for God's sake.
As I said earlier, I don't think this should be done for most professions: if someone of a certain race/sexuality doesn't feel like the staff at the local Tesco represents them, then it's not the end of the world. It's precisely because the police are so essential to any country that, IMO, an exception on this should be made for them.0 -
I'm not a Muslim (I'm mixed race), but I can't agree with your interpretation of my post. It is not exactly the same as what you've compared it to. It's far natural to be able to identify with someone of a similar background to yours that to instinctively judge someone based on negative racial stereotypes. Those two comparisons are completely mismatched. The police are not there to make a community feel good, you are right. But it is important that communities feel they have trust in the police. Because that helps the police to do their jobs. If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law. Not in the least because it means if people cannot trust the police, they do not feel they police are making them feel safe and secure. It is not about the police not dealing with people because they are 'like them'. That's certainly something I've never said or proposed. Whether many on PB like or not, the issue of communities not trusting the police is a big one, and far more complex than your last paragraph suggests.Cyclefree said:
Really? Really??? Just reread that post - "I instinctively knew that person was a Muslim like me."The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.
Let's see: "I instinctively knew that black person over there was up to no good. It's a subtle thing I have." Or "I instinctively felt that that Asian man over there with a rucksack on the tube was a risk."
For God's sake!: it's exactly that sort of approach which in earlier years (think Brixton riots and the Scarman Report) got the police into trouble because they made assumptions about people based on the colour of their skin and a policeman's "instinct" which often turned out to be based on prejudice rather than anything else. And now you want to reintroduce all that but with religion.
....0 -
''And if the police hadn't had an extensive history of racism in recent decades towards minorities in this country, that'd be a fine expectation. But the police have, in that history of racism - epitomised by the Stephen Lawrence case - damaged that relationship. And while most of the country is white, London especially is far more diverse.''
The Lawrence case was decades ago and huge strides have been made since then. Its interesting that you dragged out that old chestnut.
Your characterisation of the modern British police as a bunch of ignorant racists is one I utterly reject.
When communities complain of racism these days they are complaining about officers having the temerity to uphold the secular law.
These complaints often work, as the mass gang rape and human trafficking in Rotherham and other British cities tell us.
0 -
Because the police in recent history have made that issue a tad complicated. Large communities are not going to ignore the issue of police racism towards them in previous decades and simply see police officers as 'human beings'.Mortimer said:
And, why does the community relations have to be anything other than between police and human beings?The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, and as I said in my reply to taffys, part of doing their job is having good relations with communities. If those communities feel the Police represents their best interests, then that helps with those relations. I don't believe that every profession should exactly mirror society, but it should certainly seek to make its appeal as wide as possible, and ask itself why more people of other demographics aren't applying to or succeeding in getting employed there. It is curious as to why, in our society (historically and now) one kind of demographic appears to dominate position of power. And considering there is not anything innately 'better' about that demographic than anyone else, then there is a genuine question as to why that demographic is much more successful than others.Mortimer said:
The police do not need to represent anyone - they just need to do their job. The idea that every profession must be a mirror image of society is the worst kind of identity politics.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.0 -
I utterly disagree with your view. In fact, I'm the polar opposite. I don't care if Tesco want to preferentially recruit any particular sliver of this country. I'm vehemently opposed to any form of affirmative action within the police.Danny565 said:
Straw-men galore. No-one's saying this is about "making the community feel good": it's about the practical point of the police being effective, and in my view they can only be effective if the majority of the law-abiding public has confidence that the police are "on their side".Cyclefree said:
The police are not there to make a community feel good. They are there to make the people they police feel safe and secure. They are then to make them feel that when bad stuff happens they will react quickly and decisively and effectively. They want the police not to hold off dealing with bad people because they are like them and the police value being liked over enforcing the law and keeping the peace. They want them not to hold off because the police are scared of being accused of racism, which has stupidly been elevated - for a non-Christian country, we are now told - into The Original Mortal Sin, or islamophobia or any of the other phobias and isms we are told to tiptoe around. They do not want the police being scared to investigate matters because of some cultural, religious or other sensitivity. They want the police to do their job, for God's sake.
As I said earlier, I don't think this should be done for most professions: if someone of a certain race/sexuality doesn't feel like the staff at the local Tesco represents them, then it's not the end of the world. It's precisely because the police are so essential to any country that, IMO, an exception on this should be made for them.
They are meant to serve the law. I don't feel (and don't care!) that the police are on my side. That's implicit; I'm a law-abiding citizen, ergo I have no issue with the police (I can feel they're incompetent, and my dealings with them have been mixed).
As I've said before, I support better outreach - no one should be dissuaded from applying due to their ethnicity, sexual orientation etc.0 -
Where is PB currently standing in terms of:
DTICIPOTUS
Vs
DTWNBPOTUS
???????0 -
''If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law.''
If large communities do not trust the police on the basis they are white, then that is a racist community.0 -
If the police have to represent the society they police should there not be a requirement that more than 50% of them should be obese?
Fatties are seriously underrepresented and prone to be looked down on by all these fit young men and women. Its a scandal.0 -
Just watching Ch 4 - Beijing, twinned with Middlesbrough.0
-
And yet another 2016 poll, this one from USA Today, their last poll was 2.5 months ago:
Trump 27 /+4
Cruz 17 /+11
Rubio 16 /+7
Carson 10 /-3
Bush 4 /-4
Christie 2 /+1
Kasich 2 /0
Paul 2 /0
Fiorina 1 /-13
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2015/12/08/poll-trump-cruz-rubio-clinton-sanders/76948760/
Also Head to head with Hillary, (changes from last one):
Trump 44 /+10
Hillary 48 /-3
Cruz 45 (first time)
Hillary 47
Carson 45 /+9
Hillary 46 /-3
Rubio 48 /+8
Hillary 45 /-1
0 -
I know for many Black people it is certainly not a 'old chestnut'. It was one example off the top of my head though, and while huge strides may have been made the police are not there yet. If you want to dismiss whole communities as wrongly claiming racism, that's up to you. But the strained relations will still be there.taffys said:''And if the police hadn't had an extensive history of racism in recent decades towards minorities in this country, that'd be a fine expectation. But the police have, in that history of racism - epitomised by the Stephen Lawrence case - damaged that relationship. And while most of the country is white, London especially is far more diverse.''
The Lawrence case was decades ago and huge strides have been made since then. Its interesting that you dragged out that old chestnut.
Your characterisation of the modern British police as a bunch of ignorant racists is one I utterly reject.
When communities complain of racism these days they are complaining about officers having the temerity to uphold the secular law.
These complaints often work, as the mass gang rape and human trafficking in Rotherham and other British cities tell us.
@MP_SE And I can equally say, that in my family, where my aunts, uncles are all successful in their fields they grew up with police racism. And that ruled out joining the police as option for them. I don't agree with lower height requirements, or allowing those with criminal convictions. But I do not accept your argument that getting a wider demographic of people in the Police will result in poorer policing. If the police have had to go as far as you've said in your post, then that tells me there is something flawed with how they appeal to BME and women. There are many tall women, and ethnic minorities without criminal convictions, to recruit.0 -
What does that do to Middlesbrough?SandyRentool said:Just watching Ch 4 - Beijing, twinned with Middlesbrough.
0 -
I want police officers who are honest and competent, regardless of their ethnic and religious origin.The_Apocalypse said:
I'm not a Muslim (I'm mixed race), but I can't agree with your interpretation of my post. It is not exactly the same as what you've compared it to. It's far natural to be able to identify with someone of a similar background to yours that to instinctively judge someone based on negative racial stereotypes. Those two comparisons are completely mismatched. The police are not there to make a community feel good, you are right. But it is important that communities feel they have trust in the police. Because that helps the police to do their jobs. If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law. Not in the least because it means if people cannot trust the police, they do not feel they police are making them feel safe and secure. It is not about the police not dealing with people because they are 'like them'. That's certainly something I've never said or proposed. Whether many on PB like or not, the issue of communities not trusting the police is a big one, and far more complex than your last paragraph suggests.Cyclefree said:
Really? Really??? Just reread that post - "I instinctively knew that person was a Muslim like me."The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.
Let's see: "I instinctively knew that black person over there was up to no good. It's a subtle thing I have." Or "I instinctively felt that that Asian man over there with a rucksack on the tube was a risk."
....
Appointing police officers to fill a quota results in getting officers like Ali Dizaei.0 -
Here is one of the attack videos. More effective than the one shown above.Mortimer said:Where is this ad on the website? Looks like a spoof of the real, hard hitting and very effective ads.
https://www.facebook.com/conservatives/videos/vb.8807334278/10153554523749279/?type=2&theater
www.SadiqWatch.com has more.0 -
They've stopped exporting steel. They're now exporting smog.Speedy said:
What does that do to Middlesbrough?SandyRentool said:Just watching Ch 4 - Beijing, twinned with Middlesbrough.
0 -
It's not just those two professions - it's overall. Positions of power and influence are more than just being a policemen or a politician. It's odd that 50% of the population really doesn't seem to fancy these jobs.Mortimer said:Most of the middle class women I know are far too sensible to want to be either policemen or politicians.
They do not trust the police on the basis of a history of the police discriminating against them because of their background.taffys said:''If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law.''
If large communities do not trust the police on the basis they are white, then that is a racist community.
0 -
Ladbrokes Politics @LadPolitics 11s11 seconds ago
Trump betting:
5/2 To drop out before Iowa
9/4 To win Iowa
9/4 Republican nominee
4/1 To run as an Independent
5/1 To be elected POTUS0 -
I don't believe in quotas.Sean_F said:
I want police officers who are honest and competent, regardless of their ethnic and religious origin.The_Apocalypse said:
I'm not a Muslim (I'm mixed race), but I can't agree with your interpretation of my post. It is not exactly the same as what you've compared it to. It's far natural to be able to identify with someone of a similar background to yours that to instinctively judge someone based on negative racial stereotypes. Those two comparisons are completely mismatched. The police are not there to make a community feel good, you are right. But it is important that communities feel they have trust in the police. Because that helps the police to do their jobs. If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law. Not in the least because it means if people cannot trust the police, they do not feel they police are making them feel safe and secure. It is not about the police not dealing with people because they are 'like them'. That's certainly something I've never said or proposed. Whether many on PB like or not, the issue of communities not trusting the police is a big one, and far more complex than your last paragraph suggests.Cyclefree said:
Really? Really??? Just reread that post - "I instinctively knew that person was a Muslim like me."The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.
Let's see: "I instinctively knew that black person over there was up to no good. It's a subtle thing I have." Or "I instinctively felt that that Asian man over there with a rucksack on the tube was a risk."
....
Appointing police officers to fill a quota results in getting officers like Ali Dizaei.0 -
dr_spyn said:BigRich said:
This is another amusing economics video.flightpath01 said:TheScreamingEagles said:
If we have a recession, 2020 will be like 1992 with knobs on.Pulpstar said:
The 2015 election was decided off the back of a relatively benign economic background. You know how a recession can change political views.TheScreamingEagles said:Bitter much ?
Ten years of David Cameron makes the case for Jeremy Corbyn better than anyone
It's been ten years of failure and deceit.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2015/12/ten-years-david-cameron-makes-case-jeremy-corbyn-better-anyone
Don't go laying Corbyn next PM at ~ 9-1 just yet...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXcLVDhS8fM
Thanks Dr_Spyn,
Very good, but why where the lady's in the back tacking off Union Jack Bikini tops?
Is it because Keynes was British?0 -
Sounds like the communities, or you, looking for an excuse, tbh.The_Apocalypse said:
Because the police in recent history have made that issue a tad complicated. Large communities are not going to ignore the issue of police racism towards them in previous decades and simply see police officers as 'human beings'.Mortimer said:
And, why does the community relations have to be anything other than between police and human beings?The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, and as I said in my reply to taffys, part of doing their job is having good relations with communities. If those communities feel the Police represents their best interests, then that helps with those relations. I don't believe that every profession should exactly mirror society, but it should certainly seek to make its appeal as wide as possible, and ask itself why more people of other demographics aren't applying to or succeeding in getting employed there. It is curious as to why, in our society (historically and now) one kind of demographic appears to dominate position of power. And considering there is not anything innately 'better' about that demographic than anyone else, then there is a genuine question as to why that demographic is much more successful than others.Mortimer said:
The police do not need to represent anyone - they just need to do their job. The idea that every profession must be a mirror image of society is the worst kind of identity politics.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
0 -
''It was one example off the top of my head though, and while huge strides may have been made the police are not there yet.'''
What??????
In Rotherham?????
Where mass gang rape, torture and trafficking were over looked for decades for the sake of 'community relations'.
Rotherham suggest the opposite of your point. It provides evidence in spades that the white British police have gone way too far to appease minority communities.0 -
How does a gay man using a gay dating website indicate poor judgment?SquareRoot said:
Inc linkSquareRoot said:
YOU may not be aware but this MP put up a picture of himself in his underpants on a gay website detailing exactly what he "enjoyed" for those who might be interested.kle4 said:
I was bereft of options, to be honest, and did include a question mark. I know so little about most of them, and he was one of the few I recognised and have never personally reacted against. I did used to like Burnham, but he now seems a joke.SquareRoot said:
I see.. so the original Tax credits decision that was eventually reversed was good For George.. Interesting thinking if you think he thought far enough ahread that he would have to reverse it and then be treated as Santa Claus..TCPoliticalBetting said:
Osborne makes decisions based on what is good for him, not politics.The_Apocalypse said:
He tends to make decisions based on politics, as opposed to the good of the country, in my view. I don't like the idea of a PM, who is supposed to be a statesmen making all decisions based on what is good for the political fortunes of their party, first and foremost.Mortimer said:
Because?The_Apocalypse said:
I don't believe he'd make a good PM.Mortimer said:
Why? What is your actual objection to Osborne?The_Apocalypse said:
Osborne being PM is a far worse thought than anything Dorries as done, tbh.SquareRoot said:
Time to make George PM in waiting, then Nadine will quit.The_Apocalypse said:
Nadine Dorries is someone who I've nearly always disagreed with. That's the first time I've agreed with everything she said.MP_SE said:My favourite female Tory, Nadine Dorres, savages George Osborne:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=078Ehi1F7kY
At the end of the clip she hints that she would quit the party if he became leader.
as for KLE 4 thinking Chris Bryant is likeable, now Ive heard it all.
Bryant takes the friendliest picture of the shadow cabinet on the labour website
http://www.labour.org.uk/people/filter/c/shadow-cabinet
Anyone who can have that lack of judgement is lacking in decision making skills.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Bryant0 -
With the best will in the world, crime rates do vary between different ethnic groups. That's the other side of the coin to racist behaviour on the part of some police officers.The_Apocalypse said:
Because the police in recent history have made that issue a tad complicated. Large communities are not going to ignore the issue of police racism towards them in previous decades and simply see police officers as 'human beings'.Mortimer said:
And, why does the community relations have to be anything other than between police and human beings?The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, and as I said in my reply to taffys, part of doing their job is having good relations with communities. If those communities feel the Police represents their best interests, then that helps with those relations. I don't believe that every profession should exactly mirror society, but it should certainly seek to make its appeal as wide as possible, and ask itself why more people of other demographics aren't applying to or succeeding in getting employed there. It is curious as to why, in our society (historically and now) one kind of demographic appears to dominate position of power. And considering there is not anything innately 'better' about that demographic than anyone else, then there is a genuine question as to why that demographic is much more successful than others.Mortimer said:
The police do not need to represent anyone - they just need to do their job. The idea that every profession must be a mirror image of society is the worst kind of identity politics.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.0 -
Don't get the point of this thread - this is one example (is it really the first one, I've seen others already) and is developing a theme launched already and is presumably a drip drip campaign we'll see.
http://sadiqwatch.com/
http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/12/tories-begin-to-attack-sadiq-khan-for-his-links-to-jeremy-corbyn/
0 -
I’d be happy if all Police officers were just reasonably fit, qualified for the job and honest.DavidL said:If the police have to represent the society they police should there not be a requirement that more than 50% of them should be obese?
Fatties are seriously underrepresented and prone to be looked down on by all these fit young men and women. Its a scandal.
Once they put on the uniform, their gender, ethnicity or religious beliefs should be irrelevant.0 -
It is odd because, let me guess, you think it is odd...The_Apocalypse said:
It's not just those two professions - it's overall. Positions of power and influence are more than just being a policemen or a politician. It's odd that 50% of the population really doesn't seem to fancy these jobs.Mortimer said:Most of the middle class women I know are far too sensible to want to be either policemen or politicians.
They do not trust the police on the basis of a history of the police discriminating against them because of their background.taffys said:''If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law.''
If large communities do not trust the police on the basis they are white, then that is a racist community.
0 -
On topic
@jameskirkup: quick, @theobertram 's doing another anecdote series. More revealing about reality of politics than three dozen posh columns by hacks.
Read his tweets, starting with this one
@theobertram: At the 2003 Tory conference, I was a party apparatchik. We had an image of IDS on a donkey. Don't ask why. We just did.
and ending here
@theobertram: So Tooting Chicken Boy, I feel for you.
0 -
Ali Dizaei is an excellent example of how the Met Police became terrified of allegations of institutional racism.Sean_F said:
I want police officers who are honest and competent, regardless of their ethnic and religious origin.The_Apocalypse said:
I'm not a Muslim (I'm mixed race), but I can't agree with your interpretation of my post. It is not exactly the same as what you've compared it to. It's far natural to be able to identify with someone of a similar background to yours that to instinctively judge someone based on negative racial stereotypes. Those two comparisons are completely mismatched. The police are not there to make a community feel good, you are right. But it is important that communities feel they have trust in the police. Because that helps the police to do their jobs. If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law. Not in the least because it means if people cannot trust the police, they do not feel they police are making them feel safe and secure. It is not about the police not dealing with people because they are 'like them'. That's certainly something I've never said or proposed. Whether many on PB like or not, the issue of communities not trusting the police is a big one, and far more complex than your last paragraph suggests.Cyclefree said:
Really? Really??? Just reread that post - "I instinctively knew that person was a Muslim like me."The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.
Let's see: "I instinctively knew that black person over there was up to no good. It's a subtle thing I have." Or "I instinctively felt that that Asian man over there with a rucksack on the tube was a risk."
....
Appointing police officers to fill a quota results in getting officers like Ali Dizaei.0 -
Funnily enough I was talking about this with a friend who's looking to buy and we came to the conclusion that the H2B Isa is a bit of a con. You can only save at a rate of £200 per month (after an initial £1,200) and the bonus from the government is limited to £3,000. It's just another gimmick and and if anything treats the symptom and not the cause.BigRich said:
Glad you found it interesting. House prises are undoubtedly higher that they would be in a Free Market, and as a result of government actions getting worse, the new 'Help to Buy ISA' being a yet another distortion.tlg86 said:@BigRich
Thanks for that, very interesting. I'm not an economist but something feels very wrong about our economy. The irony is that house prices are so high that I'm saving as much as I can irrespective of the low interest rates. House prices should very much be part of the inflation assessment, but our politicians - of all colours - seem to think that inflation is bad...unless it is house price inflation.0 -
I'd strongly recommend being on the Bookie side of all of those.dr_spyn said:Ladbrokes Politics @LadPolitics 11s11 seconds ago
Trump betting:
5/2 To drop out before Iowa
9/4 To win Iowa
9/4 Republican nominee
4/1 To run as an Independent
5/1 To be elected POTUS0 -
@Mortimer It's not an excuse. I wouldn't call racism an 'excuse'.
@Sean_F I'm not going to sit here and deny that crime rates vary in regard to BMEs. But I don't accept that as 'the other side of the coin'. No amount of crime justifies racism, especially since most people of that community - despite crime rates - will not be committing crimes. In fact, very often they will be the victims of crime, just as much.0 -
@kevwodonnell: The White House have said that Trump's racist comments on Muslims entering America "disqualify him from being President".
@Otto_English: I for one admire @realDonaldTrump 's stand on extremism. You'd never see him mixing with um.. er ... oh... oh dear https://t.co/Xs9tMJDf7n0 -
No, that's not the case. Why are 50% of the population underrepresented in positions of power? You don't think of that as strange? That middle, upper class white men appear to be the only really talented demographic in the UK? Really?Mortimer said:
It is odd because, let me guess, you think it is odd...The_Apocalypse said:
It's not just those two professions - it's overall. Positions of power and influence are more than just being a policemen or a politician. It's odd that 50% of the population really doesn't seem to fancy these jobs.Mortimer said:Most of the middle class women I know are far too sensible to want to be either policemen or politicians.
They do not trust the police on the basis of a history of the police discriminating against them because of their background.taffys said:''If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law.''
If large communities do not trust the police on the basis they are white, then that is a racist community.0 -
How about one community not listening to a policemen not from their background. That is arguably racism against the policeman. Historic accusations or even realities of racism don't justify reverse racism....The_Apocalypse said:@Mortimer It's not an excuse. I wouldn't call racism an 'excuse'.
@Sean_F I'm not going to sit here and deny that crime rates vary in regard to BMEs. But I don't accept that as 'the other side of the coin'. No amount of crime justifies racism, especially since most people of that community - despite crime rates - will not be committing crimes. In fact, very often they will be the victims of crime, just as much.
Your arguments don't stand up, and so you cling to emotive words that you think people won't possibly argue against.
0 -
I agree. Internet irony fail.SimonStClare said:
I’d be happy if all Police officers were just reasonably fit, qualified for the job and honest.DavidL said:If the police have to represent the society they police should there not be a requirement that more than 50% of them should be obese?
Fatties are seriously underrepresented and prone to be looked down on by all these fit young men and women. Its a scandal.
Once they put on the uniform, their gender, ethnicity or religious beliefs should be irrelevant.0 -
That's very interesting. I find it incredibly difficult to know whether anyone is "a Christian like me or not" unless there are other factors involved.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.0 -
Not at all David – I just wanted to add my 2p worth to the discussion.DavidL said:
I agree. Internet irony fail.SimonStClare said:
I’d be happy if all Police officers were just reasonably fit, qualified for the job and honest.DavidL said:If the police have to represent the society they police should there not be a requirement that more than 50% of them should be obese?
Fatties are seriously underrepresented and prone to be looked down on by all these fit young men and women. Its a scandal.
Once they put on the uniform, their gender, ethnicity or religious beliefs should be irrelevant.
0 -
Who said anything about talent?The_Apocalypse said:
No, that's not the case. Why are 50% of the population underrepresented in positions of power? You don't think of that as strange? That middle, upper class white men appear to be the only really talented demographic in the UK? Really?Mortimer said:
It is odd because, let me guess, you think it is odd...The_Apocalypse said:
It's not just those two professions - it's overall. Positions of power and influence are more than just being a policemen or a politician. It's odd that 50% of the population really doesn't seem to fancy these jobs.Mortimer said:Most of the middle class women I know are far too sensible to want to be either policemen or politicians.
They do not trust the police on the basis of a history of the police discriminating against them because of their background.taffys said:''If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law.''
If large communities do not trust the police on the basis they are white, then that is a racist community.
If only 6 people apply for a job and they are all male, white or middle class, or all 3, it wouldn't be a huge surprise if one were appointed.
Talent has little correlation with positions of power. Welcome to the real world.
0 -
My arguments don't stand up to people who want to pretend we live in post-modern world were people forget any racism, sexism etc ever happened. That's not the real world.Mortimer said:
How about one community not listening to a policemen not from their background. That is arguably racism against the policeman. Historic accusations or even realities of racism don't justify reverse racism....The_Apocalypse said:@Mortimer It's not an excuse. I wouldn't call racism an 'excuse'.
@Sean_F I'm not going to sit here and deny that crime rates vary in regard to BMEs. But I don't accept that as 'the other side of the coin'. No amount of crime justifies racism, especially since most people of that community - despite crime rates - will not be committing crimes. In fact, very often they will be the victims of crime, just as much.
Your arguments don't stand up, and so you cling to emotive words that you think people won't possibly argue against.
Communities aren't not listening to policemen because they are white. They are suspicious of the police because of a fear that they do not have the best interests at heart. Because they historically associate that institution with one that does not keep them safe and secure.
I don't cling to emotive words. I know full well that people on this site will argue against me; it's your presumption entirely I though people wouldn't argue against. As if. ''Identity politics'' is the one thing that on PB Bingo will always get mentioned.0 -
I think with Christians it is different. They don't tend to wear a particular form a dress (aside from vicars etc). You can only know someone is a Christian from the cross.AnneJGP said:
That's very interesting. I find it incredibly difficult to know whether anyone is "a Christian like me or not" unless there are other factors involved.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.0 -
I don't agree with your assertions about people - I think you're using past prejudice to justify future action. Which is simply unjustifiable.The_Apocalypse said:
My arguments don't stand up to people who want to pretend we live in post-modern world were people forget any racism, sexism etc ever happened. That's not the real world.Mortimer said:
How about one community not listening to a policemen not from their background. That is arguably racism against the policeman. Historic accusations or even realities of racism don't justify reverse racism....The_Apocalypse said:@Mortimer It's not an excuse. I wouldn't call racism an 'excuse'.
@Sean_F I'm not going to sit here and deny that crime rates vary in regard to BMEs. But I don't accept that as 'the other side of the coin'. No amount of crime justifies racism, especially since most people of that community - despite crime rates - will not be committing crimes. In fact, very often they will be the victims of crime, just as much.
Your arguments don't stand up, and so you cling to emotive words that you think people won't possibly argue against.
Communities aren't not listening to policemen because they are white. They are suspicious of the police because of a fear that they do not have the best interests at heart. Because they historically associate that institution with one that does not keep them safe and secure.
I don't cling to emotive words. I know full well that people on this site will argue against me; it's your presumption entirely I though people wouldn't argue against. As if. ''Identity politics'' is the one thing that on PB Bingo will always get mentioned.
0 -
Welcome to the real world - that's why our society is pretty much messed up.Mortimer said:
Who said anything about talent?The_Apocalypse said:
No, that's not the case. Why are 50% of the population underrepresented in positions of power? You don't think of that as strange? That middle, upper class white men appear to be the only really talented demographic in the UK? Really?Mortimer said:
It is odd because, let me guess, you think it is odd...The_Apocalypse said:
It's not just those two professions - it's overall. Positions of power and influence are more than just being a policemen or a politician. It's odd that 50% of the population really doesn't seem to fancy these jobs.Mortimer said:Most of the middle class women I know are far too sensible to want to be either policemen or politicians.
They do not trust the police on the basis of a history of the police discriminating against them because of their background.taffys said:''If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law.''
If large communities do not trust the police on the basis they are white, then that is a racist community.
If only 6 people apply for a job and they are all male, white or middle class, or all 3, it wouldn't be a huge surprise if one were appointed.
Talent has little correlation with positions of power. Welcome to the real world.
Who said anything about talent - I said something about talent. And if all male, white, upper/middle class men are the only people applying to these kinds of jobs, then there is something rather strange about that. Why is this the only demographic interested in powerful positions?0 -
Do you think it strange there are more female vets than male vets?The_Apocalypse said:
Welcome to the real world - that's why our society is pretty much messed up.Mortimer said:
Who said anything about talent?The_Apocalypse said:
No, that's not the case. Why are 50% of the population underrepresented in positions of power? You don't think of that as strange? That middle, upper class white men appear to be the only really talented demographic in the UK? Really?Mortimer said:
It is odd because, let me guess, you think it is odd...The_Apocalypse said:
It's not just those two professions - it's overall. Positions of power and influence are more than just being a policemen or a politician. It's odd that 50% of the population really doesn't seem to fancy these jobs.Mortimer said:Most of the middle class women I know are far too sensible to want to be either policemen or politicians.
They do not trust the police on the basis of a history of the police discriminating against them because of their background.taffys said:''If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law.''
If large communities do not trust the police on the basis they are white, then that is a racist community.
If only 6 people apply for a job and they are all male, white or middle class, or all 3, it wouldn't be a huge surprise if one were appointed.
Talent has little correlation with positions of power. Welcome to the real world.
Who said anything about talent - I said something about talent. And if all male, white, upper/middle class men are the only people applying to these kinds of jobs, then there is something rather strange about that. Why is this the only demographic interested in powerful positions?
0 -
I don't justify it; I understand it. I would never judge a police officer. Most of my contact with the police - which has not been much - just within police associated with my secondary school, and now my university - has been of a positive nature. But I know many with very different experiences.Mortimer said:
I don't agree with your assertions about people - I think you're using past prejudice to justify future action. Which is simply unjustifiable.The_Apocalypse said:
My arguments don't stand up to people who want to pretend we live in post-modern world were people forget any racism, sexism etc ever happened. That's not the real world.Mortimer said:
How about one community not listening to a policemen not from their background. That is arguably racism against the policeman. Historic accusations or even realities of racism don't justify reverse racism....The_Apocalypse said:@Mortimer It's not an excuse. I wouldn't call racism an 'excuse'.
@Sean_F I'm not going to sit here and deny that crime rates vary in regard to BMEs. But I don't accept that as 'the other side of the coin'. No amount of crime justifies racism, especially since most people of that community - despite crime rates - will not be committing crimes. In fact, very often they will be the victims of crime, just as much.
Your arguments don't stand up, and so you cling to emotive words that you think people won't possibly argue against.
Communities aren't not listening to policemen because they are white. They are suspicious of the police because of a fear that they do not have the best interests at heart. Because they historically associate that institution with one that does not keep them safe and secure.
I don't cling to emotive words. I know full well that people on this site will argue against me; it's your presumption entirely I though people wouldn't argue against. As if. ''Identity politics'' is the one thing that on PB Bingo will always get mentioned.0 -
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.0 -
What? Most Christians don't wear a cross. Where do you get this rubbish from?The_Apocalypse said:
I think with Christians it is different. They don't tend to wear a particular form a dress (aside from vicars etc). You can only know someone is a Christian from the cross.AnneJGP said:
That's very interesting. I find it incredibly difficult to know whether anyone is "a Christian like me or not" unless there are other factors involved.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.
0 -
So are PBTories' senses of the political spectrum now so warped, that they think Theresa May is a Leftie?
May will say: “Incredibly, four forces do not employ any black or black British police officers at all, and female officers make up 28% of all police officers but 51% of the total population.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/21/theresa-may-criticises-police-chief-bernard-hogan-howe-stop-search-race-record
“This comes on top of existing statistics showing that there are only two BME chief officers in England and Wales, and eleven forces have no BME officers above chief inspector rank. This is simply not good enough.”0 -
Can't you see the fundamental problem here? Let's say all minorities had equal representation in the police, are they only going to deal with crimes from their minority? Of course not, you'd still be likely to be dealt with by someone not of your minority given the numbers.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.0 -
Yes, I do actually.Mortimer said:
Do you think it strange there are more female vets than male vets?The_Apocalypse said:
Welcome to the real world - that's why our society is pretty much messed up.Mortimer said:
Who said anything about talent?The_Apocalypse said:
No, that's not the case. Why are 50% of the population underrepresented in positions of power? You don't think of that as strange? That middle, upper class white men appear to be the only really talented demographic in the UK? Really?Mortimer said:
It is odd because, let me guess, you think it is odd...The_Apocalypse said:
It's not just those two professions - it's overall. Positions of power and influence are more than just being a policemen or a politician. It's odd that 50% of the population really doesn't seem to fancy these jobs.Mortimer said:Most of the middle class women I know are far too sensible to want to be either policemen or politicians.
They do not trust the police on the basis of a history of the police discriminating against them because of their background.taffys said:''If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law.''
If large communities do not trust the police on the basis they are white, then that is a racist community.
If only 6 people apply for a job and they are all male, white or middle class, or all 3, it wouldn't be a huge surprise if one were appointed.
Talent has little correlation with positions of power. Welcome to the real world.
Who said anything about talent - I said something about talent. And if all male, white, upper/middle class men are the only people applying to these kinds of jobs, then there is something rather strange about that. Why is this the only demographic interested in powerful positions?0 -
Actually, it was police racism which did that.ThreeQuidder said:
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.0 -
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/21/theresa-may-criticises-police-chief-bernard-hogan-howe-stop-search-race-recordDanny565 said:So are PBTories' senses of the political spectrum now so warped, that they think Theresa May is a Leftie?
May will say: “Incredibly, four forces do not employ any black or black British police officers at all, and female officers make up 28% of all police officers but 51% of the total population.
“This comes on top of existing statistics showing that there are only two BME chief officers in England and Wales, and eleven forces have no BME officers above chief inspector rank. This is simply not good enough.”
Yes, more should be encouraged to apply. Positive discrimination is not the way forward, it should be based on merit, and merit alone.0 -
You are mixing up thinking something wth understanding it. And both can be mutually exclusive of the truth and reality.The_Apocalypse said:
I don't justify it; I understand it. I would never judge a police officer. Most of my contact with the police - which has not been much - just within police associated with my secondary school, and now my university - has been of a positive nature. But I know many with very different experiences.Mortimer said:
I don't agree with your assertions about people - I think you're using past prejudice to justify future action. Which is simply unjustifiable.The_Apocalypse said:
My arguments don't stand up to people who want to pretend we live in post-modern world were people forget any racism, sexism etc ever happened. That's not the real world.Mortimer said:
How about one community not listening to a policemen not from their background. That is arguably racism against the policeman. Historic accusations or even realities of racism don't justify reverse racism....The_Apocalypse said:@Mortimer It's not an excuse. I wouldn't call racism an 'excuse'.
@Sean_F I'm not going to sit here and deny that crime rates vary in regard to BMEs. But I don't accept that as 'the other side of the coin'. No amount of crime justifies racism, especially since most people of that community - despite crime rates - will not be committing crimes. In fact, very often they will be the victims of crime, just as much.
Your arguments don't stand up, and so you cling to emotive words that you think people won't possibly argue against.
Communities aren't not listening to policemen because they are white. They are suspicious of the police because of a fear that they do not have the best interests at heart. Because they historically associate that institution with one that does not keep them safe and secure.
I don't cling to emotive words. I know full well that people on this site will argue against me; it's your presumption entirely I though people wouldn't argue against. As if. ''Identity politics'' is the one thing that on PB Bingo will always get mentioned.
0 -
A strawman argument. I never said most Christians wear the cross. I said you can only tell that someone is a Christian from wearing the cross. Where do you get this strawman argument from?Mortimer said:
What? Most Christians don't wear a cross. Where do you get this rubbish from?The_Apocalypse said:
I think with Christians it is different. They don't tend to wear a particular form a dress (aside from vicars etc). You can only know someone is a Christian from the cross.AnneJGP said:
That's very interesting. I find it incredibly difficult to know whether anyone is "a Christian like me or not" unless there are other factors involved.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.0 -
Yes, more should be encouraged to apply. Positive discrimination is not the way forward, it should be based on merit, and merit alone.RobD said:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/21/theresa-may-criticises-police-chief-bernard-hogan-howe-stop-search-race-recordDanny565 said:So are PBTories' senses of the political spectrum now so warped, that they think Theresa May is a Leftie?
May will say: “Incredibly, four forces do not employ any black or black British police officers at all, and female officers make up 28% of all police officers but 51% of the total population.
“This comes on top of existing statistics showing that there are only two BME chief officers in England and Wales, and eleven forces have no BME officers above chief inspector rank. This is simply not good enough.”
She was not just talking about people being encouraged to apply; she was (rightly) talking about the levels of recruitment of ethnic minorities being unacceptably low, though admittedly she wasn't advocating quotas.0 -
The highest positions in our society are dominated by people from upper, and upper middle class backgrounds. That's no surprise as they have the qualifications, the money, and the connections. And rich parents are very good at ensuring their children succeed, and they pass their wealth onto them.The_Apocalypse said:
No, that's not the case. Why are 50% of the population underrepresented in positions of power? You don't think of that as strange? That middle, upper class white men appear to be the only really talented demographic in the UK? Really?Mortimer said:
It is odd because, let me guess, you think it is odd...The_Apocalypse said:
It's not just those two professions - it's overall. Positions of power and influence are more than just being a policemen or a politician. It's odd that 50% of the population really doesn't seem to fancy these jobs.Mortimer said:Most of the middle class women I know are far too sensible to want to be either policemen or politicians.
They do not trust the police on the basis of a history of the police discriminating against them because of their background.taffys said:''If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law.''
If large communities do not trust the police on the basis they are white, then that is a racist community.
And, the upper and upper middle classes tend to be more White than the population as a whole. They've been well-established here for centuries.
As to why fewer than 50% of high status jobs are held by upper and upper middle class women, many leave the workforce, or cut down their hours when they have children. There's a very widespread view among both mothers and fathers that mothers will spend more of their time raising their children than fathers will. Whether that's right or wrong, that's the decision that they mostly come to.
0 -
This seems like a particularly weak poster from the Conservatives, especially because a lot of us have eaten at fried chicken places but also dislike it when there are too many popping up in our area. Personally, I don't really feel a negative campaign is going to work too well for something like the mayoralty. This isn't a position of moral leadership where a candidate will make decisions of life and death. It's a position with a few responsibilities and us Londoners are happy to back whichever candidate has got the best two or three initiatives for improving the city. In that vein, the best thing the Conservatives should go for is Khan's closeness to the transport unions, and the threat that brings to the very popular policy of a 24-hour Tube.0
-
Really? It is a job that seems to appeal more to women. So what? I'm not going to go and burn my best about it.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, I do actually.Mortimer said:
Do you think it strange there are more female vets than male vets?The_Apocalypse said:
Welcome to the real world - that's why our society is pretty much messed up.Mortimer said:
Who said anything about talent?The_Apocalypse said:
No, that's not the case. Why are 50% of the population underrepresented in positions of power? You don't think of that as strange? That middle, upper class white men appear to be the only really talented demographic in the UK? Really?Mortimer said:
It is odd because, let me guess, you think it is odd...The_Apocalypse said:
It's not just those two professions - it's overall. Positions of power and influence are more than just being a policemen or a politician. It's odd that 50% of the population really doesn't seem to fancy these jobs.Mortimer said:Most of the middle class women I know are far too sensible to want to be either policemen or politicians.
They do not trust the police on the basis of a history of the police discriminating against them because of their background.taffys said:''If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law.''
If large communities do not trust the police on the basis they are white, then that is a racist community.
If only 6 people apply for a job and they are all male, white or middle class, or all 3, it wouldn't be a huge surprise if one were appointed.
Talent has little correlation with positions of power. Welcome to the real world.
Who said anything about talent - I said something about talent. And if all male, white, upper/middle class men are the only people applying to these kinds of jobs, then there is something rather strange about that. Why is this the only demographic interested in powerful positions?
0 -
God forbid someone could actually use words to ask if someone is a Cheistian. There are many ways to tell if someone is a Christian. Iconography is not the only way you can tell.The_Apocalypse said:
A strawman argument. I never said most Christians wear the cross. I said you can only tell that someone is a Christian from wearing the cross. Where do you get this strawman argument from?Mortimer said:
What? Most Christians don't wear a cross. Where do you get this rubbish from?The_Apocalypse said:
I think with Christians it is different. They don't tend to wear a particular form a dress (aside from vicars etc). You can only know someone is a Christian from the cross.AnneJGP said:
That's very interesting. I find it incredibly difficult to know whether anyone is "a Christian like me or not" unless there are other factors involved.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.0 -
I don't agree. An increase would mean that most likely, at the very least you'd have more people within local communities having contact with BME officers (or female officers). That in itself would make a difference. You do not have to have a BME officer on every single case that involves an ethnic minority.RobD said:
Can't you see the fundamental problem here? Let's say all minorities had equal representation in the police, are they only going to deal with crimes from their minority? Of course not, you'd still be likely to be dealt with by someone not of your minority given the numbers.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.
0 -
She was not just talking about people being encouraged to apply; she was (rightly) talking about the levels of recruitment of ethnic minorities being unacceptably low, though admittedly she wasn't advocating quotas.Danny565 said:
Yes, more should be encouraged to apply. Positive discrimination is not the way forward, it should be based on merit, and merit alone.RobD said:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/21/theresa-may-criticises-police-chief-bernard-hogan-howe-stop-search-race-recordDanny565 said:So are PBTories' senses of the political spectrum now so warped, that they think Theresa May is a Leftie?
May will say: “Incredibly, four forces do not employ any black or black British police officers at all, and female officers make up 28% of all police officers but 51% of the total population.
“This comes on top of existing statistics showing that there are only two BME chief officers in England and Wales, and eleven forces have no BME officers above chief inspector rank. This is simply not good enough.”
I'm not sure how the two are different. They are unacceptably low, and therefore should be encouraged to apply. The fact that fewer are recruited is not necessarily racism, as it should be entirely based on merit.0 -
Whether rightly or wrongly the days of the bobby on the beat have long gone so there will be little time to engage with local communities.The_Apocalypse said:
I don't agree. An increase would mean that most likely, at the very least you'd have more people within local communities having contact with BME officers (or female officers). That in itself would make a difference. You do not have to have a BME officer on every single case that involves an ethnic minority.RobD said:
Can't you see the fundamental problem here? Let's say all minorities had equal representation in the police, are they only going to deal with crimes from their minority? Of course not, you'd still be likely to be dealt with by someone not of your minority given the numbers.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.0 -
And they should trust women more than men, or a minority more than a white man? That's the problem.The_Apocalypse said:
I don't agree. An increase would mean that most likely, at the very least you'd have more people within local communities having contact with BME officers (or female officers). That in itself would make a difference. You do not have to have a BME officer on every single case that involves an ethnic minority.RobD said:
Can't you see the fundamental problem here? Let's say all minorities had equal representation in the police, are they only going to deal with crimes from their minority? Of course not, you'd still be likely to be dealt with by someone not of your minority given the numbers.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.0 -
I agree with all of what you've said. I personally think the view that women should do the burden of childcare - as a result of gender roles - is very damaging and undermines the argument for the nuclear family that children need a mother and father. Why does someone need a father if the mother is doing 80% of the childcare (something I've seen in my own family) while holding down a full-time job? It is just as important that a father spends time with a child, and bonds with their children as much as a mother does. This idea of 'women's role' undermines female success, and earning potential.Sean_F said:
The highest positions in our society are dominated by people from upper, and upper middle class backgrounds. That's no surprise as they have the qualifications, the money, and the connections. And rich parents are very good at ensuring their children succeed, and they pass their wealth onto them.The_Apocalypse said:
No, that's not the case. Why are 50% of the population underrepresented in positions of power? You don't think of that as strange? That middle, upper class white men appear to be the only really talented demographic in the UK? Really?Mortimer said:
It is odd because, let me guess, you think it is odd...The_Apocalypse said:
It's not just those two professions - it's overall. Positions of power and influence are more than just being a policemen or a politician. It's odd that 50% of the population really doesn't seem to fancy these jobs.Mortimer said:Most of the middle class women I know are far too sensible to want to be either policemen or politicians.
They do not trust the police on the basis of a history of the police discriminating against them because of their background.taffys said:''If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law.''
If large communities do not trust the police on the basis they are white, then that is a racist community.
And, the upper and upper middle classes tend to be more White than the population as a whole. They've been well-established here for centuries.
As to why fewer than 50% of high status jobs are held by upper and upper middle class women, many leave the workforce, or cut down their hours when they have children. There's a very widespread view among both mothers and fathers that mothers will spend more of their time raising their children than fathers will. Whether that's right or wrong, that's the decision that they mostly come to.
@Mortimer If your on the street, usually you aren't going to actually go an ask a person whether they are a Christian or not, though.0 -
Isam or PBModerator could you please edit the zzz it is breaking the site.0
-
But why are 'maternal' jobs seen as female domain? It would be great to get more men into professions like nursing, for example.Mortimer said:
Really? It is a job that seems to appeal more to women. So what? I'm not going to go and burn my best about it.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, I do actually.Mortimer said:
Do you think it strange there are more female vets than male vets?The_Apocalypse said:
Welcome to the real world - that's why our society is pretty much messed up.Mortimer said:
Who said anything about talent?The_Apocalypse said:
No, that's not the case. Why are 50% of the population underrepresented in positions of power? You don't think of that as strange? That middle, upper class white men appear to be the only really talented demographic in the UK? Really?Mortimer said:
It is odd because, let me guess, you think it is odd...The_Apocalypse said:
It's not just those two professions - it's overall. Positions of power and influence are more than just being a policemen or a politician. It's odd that 50% of the population really doesn't seem to fancy these jobs.Mortimer said:Most of the middle class women I know are far too sensible to want to be either policemen or politicians.
They do not trust the police on the basis of a history of the police discriminating against them because of their background.taffys said:''If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law.''
If large communities do not trust the police on the basis they are white, then that is a racist community.
If only 6 people apply for a job and they are all male, white or middle class, or all 3, it wouldn't be a huge surprise if one were appointed.
Talent has little correlation with positions of power. Welcome to the real world.
Who said anything about talent - I said something about talent. And if all male, white, upper/middle class men are the only people applying to these kinds of jobs, then there is something rather strange about that. Why is this the only demographic interested in powerful positions?0 -
George Osborne ruled out another referendum on Scottish independence and called SNP MPs a “noisy and aggressive block”.
The Chancellor said there had been a “clear result” and there would not be another vote “at least for a generation”.
In comments that will anger the Scottish Nationalists he accused their new intake of “not trying to be part of the UK government, and that is a departure.”
http://bit.ly/1NEvTbb0 -
No I don't think they should trust these groups. But, they may. A woman who has been raped, for example is likely going to feel far more comfortable talking to a female police officer about her trauma than a male one.RobD said:
And they should trust women more than men, or a minority more than a white man? That's the problem.The_Apocalypse said:
I don't agree. An increase would mean that most likely, at the very least you'd have more people within local communities having contact with BME officers (or female officers). That in itself would make a difference. You do not have to have a BME officer on every single case that involves an ethnic minority.RobD said:
Can't you see the fundamental problem here? Let's say all minorities had equal representation in the police, are they only going to deal with crimes from their minority? Of course not, you'd still be likely to be dealt with by someone not of your minority given the numbers.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.0 -
'The Chancellor said there would not be a vote for "at least a generation" 'TheScreamingEagles said:George Osborne ruled out another referendum on Scottish independence and called SNP MPs a “noisy and aggressive block”.
The Chancellor said there had been a “clear result” and there would not be another vote “at least for a generation”.
In comments that will anger the Scottish Nationalists he accused their new intake of “not trying to be part of the UK government, and that is a departure.”
http://bit.ly/1NEvTbb
We all know Scottish generations are 3 years, 5 years tops.0 -
Quite. Pandering to different communities worsens, rather than improves overall community relations. Where the community is a human one. The one that matters. The one which we are all part of.RobD said:
And they should trust women more than men, or a minority more than a white man? That's the problem.The_Apocalypse said:
I don't agree. An increase would mean that most likely, at the very least you'd have more people within local communities having contact with BME officers (or female officers). That in itself would make a difference. You do not have to have a BME officer on every single case that involves an ethnic minority.RobD said:
Can't you see the fundamental problem here? Let's say all minorities had equal representation in the police, are they only going to deal with crimes from their minority? Of course not, you'd still be likely to be dealt with by someone not of your minority given the numbers.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.0 -
Obviously Ozzy will rue the day for that0
-
Your first comment is outrageous. I agree with your second though, but if it was a simply burglary, what justification do they have to trust a woman more than a man?The_Apocalypse said:
No I don't think they should trust these groups. But, they may. A woman who has been raped, for example is likely going to feel far more comfortable talking to a female police officer about her trauma than a male one.RobD said:
And they should trust women more than men, or a minority more than a white man? That's the problem.The_Apocalypse said:
I don't agree. An increase would mean that most likely, at the very least you'd have more people within local communities having contact with BME officers (or female officers). That in itself would make a difference. You do not have to have a BME officer on every single case that involves an ethnic minority.RobD said:
Can't you see the fundamental problem here? Let's say all minorities had equal representation in the police, are they only going to deal with crimes from their minority? Of course not, you'd still be likely to be dealt with by someone not of your minority given the numbers.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.0 -
No. If he won an overall majority (which is very unlikely) he'd become Prime Minister (they don't have a president - it's a monarchy). He'd struggle to find allies in a coalition.MP_SE said:If Geert Wilders' Party for Freedom win the most seats would he become the President of the Netherlands?
0 -
You made that judgement and introduced the word maternal. And Vets used to be overwhelmingly male.The_Apocalypse said:
But why are 'maternal' jobs seen as female domain? It would be great to get more men into professions like nursing, for example.Mortimer said:
Really? It is a job that seems to appeal more to women. So what? I'm not going to go and burn my best about it.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, I do actually.Mortimer said:
Do you think it strange there are more female vets than male vets?The_Apocalypse said:
Welcome to the real world - that's why our society is pretty much messed up.Mortimer said:
Who said anything about talent?The_Apocalypse said:
No, that's not the case. Why are 50% of the population underrepresented in positions of power? You don't think of that as strange? That middle, upper class white men appear to be the only really talented demographic in the UK? Really?Mortimer said:
It is odd because, let me guess, you think it is odd...The_Apocalypse said:
It's not just those two professions - it's overall. Positions of power and influence are more than just being a policemen or a politician. It's odd that 50% of the population really doesn't seem to fancy these jobs.Mortimer said:Most of the middle class women I know are far too sensible to want to be either policemen or politicians.
They do not trust the police on the basis of a history of the police discriminating against them because of their background.taffys said:''If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law.''
If large communities do not trust the police on the basis they are white, then that is a racist community.
If only 6 people apply for a job and they are all male, white or middle class, or all 3, it wouldn't be a huge surprise if one were appointed.
Talent has little correlation with positions of power. Welcome to the real world.
Who said anything about talent - I said something about talent. And if all male, white, upper/middle class men are the only people applying to these kinds of jobs, then there is something rather strange about that. Why is this the only demographic interested in powerful positions?
I'd hate to be a vet - too much hand up backside involved for me liking!
0 -
That is a mistake in my opinion. One of my friends was raped, and some of the most understanding were men and some of the most judgmental were women.The_Apocalypse said:
No I don't think they should trust these groups. But, they may. A woman who has been raped, for example is likely going to feel far more comfortable talking to a female police officer about her trauma than a male one.RobD said:
And they should trust women more than men, or a minority more than a white man? That's the problem.The_Apocalypse said:
I don't agree. An increase would mean that most likely, at the very least you'd have more people within local communities having contact with BME officers (or female officers). That in itself would make a difference. You do not have to have a BME officer on every single case that involves an ethnic minority.RobD said:
Can't you see the fundamental problem here? Let's say all minorities had equal representation in the police, are they only going to deal with crimes from their minority? Of course not, you'd still be likely to be dealt with by someone not of your minority given the numbers.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.0 -
There is no way this United side can score 3x in this game. They can barely do that in a month.0
-
It's testing the ground ("flip flopper" / "hypocrite") without firing real ammunitionWanderer said:The other problem is that this is a fairly pleasant-looking picture of Khan. The only reaction it triggers in me is that he's a nice man who likes chicken. Or doesn't.
It must be a contender for the weakest attack ad ever?
I suspect there is also a subliminal message - it's been a while since I saw hard data, but a reduction in the number of fried chicken shops in an area is a very strong predictor of gentrification / house price increases0 -
A fairly yuckie diet, I would say.
https://twitter.com/redbrasco/status/6742345548073820160 -
Ah, I've just looked back. I meant trust these groups 'more' (as in relative to others). I forgot more. It's a simple typo!RobD said:
Your first comment is outrageous. I agree with your second though, but if it was a simply burglary, what justification do they have to trust a woman more than a man?The_Apocalypse said:
No I don't think they should trust these groups MORE. But, they may. A woman who has been raped, for example is likely going to feel far more comfortable talking to a female police officer about her trauma than a male one.RobD said:
And they should trust women more than men, or a minority more than a white man? That's the problem.The_Apocalypse said:
I don't agree. An increase would mean that most likely, at the very least you'd have more people within local communities having contact with BME officers (or female officers). That in itself would make a difference. You do not have to have a BME officer on every single case that involves an ethnic minority.RobD said:
Can't you see the fundamental problem here? Let's say all minorities had equal representation in the police, are they only going to deal with crimes from their minority? Of course not, you'd still be likely to be dealt with by someone not of your minority given the numbers.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.
As I said previously, I'm not justifying it, I understand it.0 -
The_Apocalypse said:
I think with Christians it is different. They don't tend to wear a particular form a dress (aside from vicars etc). You can only know someone is a Christian from the cross.AnneJGP said:
That's very interesting. I find it incredibly difficult to know whether anyone is "a Christian like me or not" unless there are other factors involved.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.
If you see someone wearing a cross, please do not assume they are Christian.
The cross is only a piece of jewelry to many, many people - many of them have no idea that it has any significance at all, religious or otherwise. Some of them would be deeply offended at the idea that they are Christian.
I'm genuinely interested in a Muslim knowing instinctively (i.e. without visual clues) that someone else -say someone in a fire-fighter's uniform or surgeon's theatre garb - is a Muslim like them.
But you are already engaged on several fronts on PB tonight so maybe we can postpone this discussion to another evening!0 -
I didn't say anything about trusting them more, just at the same level as officers of their own gender/minority.The_Apocalypse said:
Ah, I've just looked back. I meant trust these groups 'more' (as in relative to others). I forgot more. It's a simple typo!RobD said:
Your first comment is outrageous. I agree with your second though, but if it was a simply burglary, what justification do they have to trust a woman more than a man?The_Apocalypse said:
No I don't think they should trust these groups MORE. But, they may. A woman who has been raped, for example is likely going to feel far more comfortable talking to a female police officer about her trauma than a male one.RobD said:
And they should trust women more than men, or a minority more than a white man? That's the problem.The_Apocalypse said:
I don't agree. An increase would mean that most likely, at the very least you'd have more people within local communities having contact with BME officers (or female officers). That in itself would make a difference. You do not have to have a BME officer on every single case that involves an ethnic minority.RobD said:
Can't you see the fundamental problem here? Let's say all minorities had equal representation in the police, are they only going to deal with crimes from their minority? Of course not, you'd still be likely to be dealt with by someone not of your minority given the numbers.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.
As I said previously, I'm not justifying it, I understand it.0 -
@Mortimer I know I made that judgement. I made that judgement because it's something I've seen - that people expect nurses to be women, and generally roles that involve caring to be women.0
-
Thanks and also thanks to RCS who mentioned similar earlier.NickPalmer said:
No. If he won an overall majority (which is very unlikely) he'd become Prime Minister (they don't have a president - it's a monarchy). He'd struggle to find allies in a coalition.MP_SE said:If Geert Wilders' Party for Freedom win the most seats would he become the President of the Netherlands?
I am presuming it would have to be some sort of mega coalition as the Party for Freedom & Democracy and Labour will lose a lot of seats if the current polling is anything to go by.0 -
O/T - I have an unscheduled 12 hour layover in Hong Kong due to United's incompetence at maintaining their aircraft. Any tips?0
-
I don't know. I think now men may be more understanding, but equally I've seen some abhorrent attitudes to rape from male members of my own family. Not that there aren't women who think just as bad, but I've found that women overall tend to be less judgemental.LukeInLondon said:
That is a mistake in my opinion. One of my friends was raped, and some of the most understanding were men and some of the most judgmental were women.The_Apocalypse said:
No I don't think they should trust these groups. But, they may. A woman who has been raped, for example is likely going to feel far more comfortable talking to a female police officer about her trauma than a male one.RobD said:
And they should trust women more than men, or a minority more than a white man? That's the problem.The_Apocalypse said:
I don't agree. An increase would mean that most likely, at the very least you'd have more people within local communities having contact with BME officers (or female officers). That in itself would make a difference. You do not have to have a BME officer on every single case that involves an ethnic minority.RobD said:
Can't you see the fundamental problem here? Let's say all minorities had equal representation in the police, are they only going to deal with crimes from their minority? Of course not, you'd still be likely to be dealt with by someone not of your minority given the numbers.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, but in practical terms communities feeling that the Police has their best interests at heart helps to achieve that.taffys said:''Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.''
They police are not there to represent people, they are there to enforce the law of the land.
@Cyclefree There are exceptions, but most of the time you can tell when someone is a Muslim - a lot of the White Muslim women I've encountered tend to wear headscarf, for instance. It's not that an officer would say literally 'I'm a Muslim so trust me'. From what I've seen (in relation to Black people in London) it's a more far instinct thing, it is subtle and unsaid. I also don't think that the officer would have to make any kind of 'assessment'. They would most probably instinctively know whether someone is a Muslim like them or not.0 -
Most likeable Tory personally is IMO Oliver Letwin, by a large margin. On the Labour side, there's a lot of competition, but I'd nominate Fabian Hamilton. They're both gentle, open-minded people who've strayed into in a rough business.The_Apocalypse said:
For the Tories, I think it's Thersea May. I've always found Hammond to be dull as dishwater, and have never liked Jeremy Hunt. For Labour, hmmm that's hard. Lisa Nandy comes across okay, I guess.0 -
Why would it? As long as we have enough nurses, I don't see the issue.The_Apocalypse said:
But why are 'maternal' jobs seen as female domain? It would be great to get more men into professions like nursing, for example.Mortimer said:
Really? It is a job that seems to appeal more to women. So what? I'm not going to go and burn my best about it.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, I do actually.Mortimer said:
Do you think it strange there are more female vets than male vets?The_Apocalypse said:
Welcome to the real world - that's why our society is pretty much messed up.Mortimer said:
Who said anything about talent?The_Apocalypse said:
No, that's not the case. Why are 50% of the population underrepresented in positions of power? You don't think of that as strange? That middle, upper class white men appear to be the only really talented demographic in the UK? Really?Mortimer said:
It is odd because, let me guess, you think it is odd...The_Apocalypse said:
It's not just those two professions - it's overall. Positions of power and influence are more than just being a policemen or a politician. It's odd that 50% of the population really doesn't seem to fancy these jobs.Mortimer said:Most of the middle class women I know are far too sensible to want to be either policemen or politicians.
They do not trust the police on the basis of a history of the police discriminating against them because of their background.taffys said:''If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law.''
If large communities do not trust the police on the basis they are white, then that is a racist community.
If only 6 people apply for a job and they are all male, white or middle class, or all 3, it wouldn't be a huge surprise if one were appointed.
Talent has little correlation with positions of power. Welcome to the real world.
Who said anything about talent - I said something about talent. And if all male, white, upper/middle class men are the only people applying to these kinds of jobs, then there is something rather strange about that. Why is this the only demographic interested in powerful positions?0 -
This was what you said to me previously:RobD said:
I didn't say anything about trusting them more, just at the same level as officers of their own gender/minority.
And they should trust women more than men, or a minority more than a white man?
If I misinterpreted this I apologise, but the word more relative to women and minorities was used twice.0
This discussion has been closed.