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I do so love this new gentle form of politics.Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: Labour frontbencher on "intimidation" of pro-war MPs: "The leadership's deliberately stoking it up. It's appalling." https://t.co/7Spk9C0vYN
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I think I would substitute "tell" for "ask". Given that change, what could be more reasonable?HurstLlama said:
Fair enough, and personally I am not that bothered about how other cultures treat their people in their own lands. However, when people from cultures with those sort of attitudes come to live here in the UK then I do not think it unreasonable to ask them to leave their medieval belief systems about the rule of law and rights of individuals at the immigration desk.MTimT said:
Indeed, try to tell a Pakistani apostate that he has a free choice to change religion.Sean_F said:
There I beg to differ, and I think it shows how we lack imagination in Western societies. We think that the rest of the world, outside Western Europe, North East and West Coast America, is just dying to be like us, or would be, if they were sufficiently well educated.Beverley_C said:
People are born black, white, brown, yellow, male, female, able, disabled, gay, straight or whatever. They get no choice in this. No one is born muslim, buddhist, christian, jewish or aetheist and whatever religion or culture you are brought up in you can always change it. Plenty of people convert to other religions or "go native" in another culture.MTimT said:
I am not sure that equality is anything less of a cultural phenomenon than other ideas or indeed that religion is much of a choice for the greater part of the world.
Changeable attributes like religion and culture should never trump innate characteristics, not even for vote-grubbing politicians who spout the mantra of equality without actually caring what it means.
Outside these prosperous enclaves, peoples' religion and culture is absolutely what they love and value, and is as central to them as race, gender, sexuality is to us.
Tell a slave in Mauritania that he was born equal.
Tell a woman in Saudi Arabia that she was born equal.
Tell a gay man in Uganda or Iran that he was born equal.
Tell a leper in Yemen that she is equal.
I know what their responses would be.0 -
If people side with Corbyn I do condemn them as well. I find it astonishing that there is any hesitation to deal ruthlessly with the likes of the terrorists in Paris. Labour could do with a leader who shows the resolution of President Hollande.kle4 said:Which you can do, but is problematic for politicians to do (though it doesn't stop them saying voters are stupid, eg 'only voted in Cameron as they didn't understand what the Tories would do' sort of argument)
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Iran has quite a big House Church movement:kle4 said:
Really, I had not heard that. I would be interested in any stories on such a trend if you have any to hand, it goes against the narrative we often seem to expect.Luckyguy1983 said:
Actually there's a big trend in many countries toward Muslims converting to Christianity.Floater said:
Changing FROM Islam is a bit of a problem Bev.Beverley_C said:
People are born black, white, brown, yellow, male, female, able, disabled, gay, straight or whatever. They get no choice in this. No one is born muslim, buddhist, christian, jewish or aetheist and whatever religion or culture you are brought up in you can always change it. Plenty of people convert to other religions or "go native" in another culture.MTimT said:
I am not sure that equality is anything less of a cultural phenomenon than other ideas or indeed that religion is much of a choice for the greater part of the world.
Changeable attributes like religion and culture should never trump innate characteristics, not even for vote-grubbing politicians who spout the mantra of equality without actually caring what it means.
A one way door that one.
http://www.churchcentral.com/blogs/iranian-church-sees-rapid-growth/
Though by the very nature of underground Churches always a bit difficult to know how real the numbers are.
It is much easier to Evangelise the Islamic world now that the Internet and social media are so prevalent.0 -
I winced at it as well. But it was the first proper strike of the election campaign, the tories knew that him stabbing his brother in the back was one of the few things that people knew about Ed, and didn't like him for it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm surprised Dave didn't contract it out to Michael Fallon like he did during the General Election.AlastairMeeks said:It's incredibly low of David Cameron to use the phrase "terrorist sympathisers" and it will be brutally effective. That's what the public believes and all discussion of it will only help the Conservatives. The yelps of outrage are what he wants.
Even I winced at that attack on Ed Miliband.
Utter genius in a machiavellian way.0 -
That's pretty much what did happen is it not?isam said:
I said Corbyn and McDonnell are fair game!!Fenster said:
Ah you're being overly sensitive man. Corbyn will likely wear the badge proudly. He believes in Irish Republicanism; he supported Hezbollah and Hamas. He'd be happy to admit that.isam said:
I have already said that I think Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser, I just don't think it is appropriate for a PM to use such juvenile and puerile tactics to try and force people who are troubled at the thought of sanctioning killing innocent people to do soPhilip_Thompson said:
And?isam said:
You have missed the point by as far as it is to miss itPhilip_Thompson said:
If Hitler were suggesting we shouldn't fight fascists it would be relevant.Luckyguy1983 said:
That's utterly illogical. Are people not supposed to like watercolour and walks in the country because Hitler liked them? The vote is either right or it isn't, and MPs need to vote with their brains and consciences, not based on who they'll be walking through the lobby with.Scott_P said:
No, being a terrorist sympathiser makes you a terrorist sympathiser. Cameron is merely asking his MPs not to associate themselves with people who have already been revealed to be terrorist sympathisersPong said:That's the new tory line - voting against airstrikes makes you a terrorist sympathiser.
That the terrorist sympathiser is saying we shouldn't fight terrorists is relevant.
If Corbyn doesn't want to be called a terrorist sympathiser maybe he should stop sympathising with terrorists?
Calling Corbyn a terrorist sympathiser is probably accurate... saying "don't allay yourself with a bunch of terrorist sympathisers" to MP's that aren't sympathetic to terrorists in the least may be seen as trying to smear by association or make people vote your way by fear of smear
Sounds like a persuasive argument made plausible by the Opposition to this being led by a bunch of terrorist sympathisers. What's your objection exactly? That he's trying to win support or that he called a spade a spade?
Not sure smear is right. Smears are normally false. He's trying to win support by association yes. As leaders generally do.
As Nick Cohen alluded too. He's no pacifist either, he's quite happy when the aggression is aimed at the West.
It's the equivalent of saying to social workers in Rotherham circa 2008 who report signs of trouble with Pakistani men and paedophilia
"Don't side with Nick Griffin"0 -
Then bomb Molenbeek, the outskirts of Paris and the East End of Londonglw said:
If people side with Corbyn I do condemn them as well. I find it astonishing that there is any hesitation to deal ruthlessly with the likes of the terrorists in Paris.kle4 said:Which you can do, but is problematic for politicians to do (though it doesn't stop them saying voters are stupid, eg 'only voted in Cameron as they didn't understand what the Tories would do' sort of argument)
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The "one way door" is because of culture. If you recant islam your DNA does not finish you off, nor are you born with the Bible, Koran, Torah or any other holy book imprinted into your inner being and dictating your outlook and actions.Floater said:
Changing FROM Islam is a bit of a problem Bev.Beverley_C said:
People are born black, white, brown, yellow, male, female, able, disabled, gay, straight or whatever. They get no choice in this. No one is born muslim, buddhist, christian, jewish or aetheist and whatever religion or culture you are brought up in you can always change it. Plenty of people convert to other religions or "go native" in another culture.MTimT said:
I am not sure that equality is anything less of a cultural phenomenon than other ideas or indeed that religion is much of a choice for the greater part of the world.
Changeable attributes like religion and culture should never trump innate characteristics, not even for vote-grubbing politicians who spout the mantra of equality without actually caring what it means.
A one way door that one.
Having bigots kill you because they disagree with you does not make it right. You can safely recant Islam as long as a lunatic with a kalashnikov is not standing beside you.0 -
McConnell has been all over the media these past few days explaining away his reported comments about the "ballot box" to anyone who would listen by saying how he was hosting a Sinn Fein delegation at the time (ie at the height of the troubles) in his "search for peace".Scott_P said:@DPJHodges: Know it's inconvenient for Labour, but if you elect a man who's expressed sympathy with terrorists as a leader, people will point that out.
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No doubt its emotional blackmail.isam said:
Yeah I think he is a bit of a terrorist sympathiser!JosiasJessop said:
There are plenty of reasons that someone might call Corbyn a "terrorist sympathiser" aside from this latest situation.isam said:
Cameron's "terrorist sympathiser" remark... it implies anyone who doesn't follow his lead is one in my eyes... whether to bomb Syria, which will result in innocent, non ISIS Syrians dying, is a sensitive subject that doesn't need bullying from the PMbigjohnowls said:
Ms Cyclefree has a hard on?isam said:This hard on for bombs isn't very attractive
I'm not sure it's helpful though.
But by saying that, Cameron is inferring that anyone that decides they cant bring themselves to vote to bomb is a terrorist sympathiser also, the way I read it anyway.
Perhaps he should go the Labour route and get people to intimidate them into voting his way.0 -
Lucky for Labour they haven't replaced Ed with someone who can be considered a national security risk.notme said:
I winced at it as well. But it was the first proper strike of the election campaign, the tories knew that him stabbing his brother in the back was one of the few things that people knew about Ed, and didn't like him for it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm surprised Dave didn't contract it out to Michael Fallon like he did during the General Election.AlastairMeeks said:It's incredibly low of David Cameron to use the phrase "terrorist sympathisers" and it will be brutally effective. That's what the public believes and all discussion of it will only help the Conservatives. The yelps of outrage are what he wants.
Even I winced at that attack on Ed Miliband.
Utter genius in a machiavellian way.
2020 will be utterly horrific and all the Tories will have to do is quote what Labour MPs have said about Jez0 -
From my perspective the Sunni/ Shia thing in Iraq is at the core of the Daesh problemkle4 said:
That one particularly pisses me off (though that is not to discount the import of the other excuses you list). I don't even disagree we and others caused or contributed to messes, but it's been a 100 godsdamned years. (and yes, I know we and others have still had interference, it doesn't excuse pinning all the blame on it, much like those still blaming colonialism, sorry, neo-colonialism, for all troubles decades after independence). It makes me go over all right wing, which upsets my socially lefty heart.Cyclefree said:
He cited Iraq because he knew that it would trigger exactly the reaction we have seen from Pavlov's dogs. The Islamists understand that the Western world can be put under pressure if our "guilt" buttons are pressed.
So we get the:-
- "it's your fault because of your colonial interference after WW1" button;
Besides which, the Sunni-Shia issue has been going on a lot longer than that and still causes problems.
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So it seems. That ended wellLuckyguy1983 said:
That's pretty much what did happen is it not?isam said:
I said Corbyn and McDonnell are fair game!!Fenster said:
Ah you're being overly sensitive man. Corbyn will likely wear the badge proudly. He believes in Irish Republicanism; he supported Hezbollah and Hamas. He'd be happy to admit that.isam said:
I have already said that I think Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser, I just don't think it is appropriate for a PM to use such juvenile and puerile tactics to try and force people who are troubled at the thought of sanctioning killing innocent people to do soPhilip_Thompson said:
And?isam said:
You have missed the point by as far as it is to miss itPhilip_Thompson said:
If Hitler were suggesting we shouldn't fight fascists it would be relevant.Luckyguy1983 said:
That's utterly illogical. Are people not supposed to like watercolour and walks in the country because Hitler liked them? The vote is either right or it isn't, and MPs need to vote with their brains and consciences, not based on who they'll be walking through the lobby with.Scott_P said:
No, being a terrorist sympathiser makes you a terrorist sympathiser. Cameron is merely asking his MPs not to associate themselves with people who have already been revealed to be terrorist sympathisersPong said:That's the new tory line - voting against airstrikes makes you a terrorist sympathiser.
That the terrorist sympathiser is saying we shouldn't fight terrorists is relevant.
If Corbyn doesn't want to be called a terrorist sympathiser maybe he should stop sympathising with terrorists?
Calling Corbyn a terrorist sympathiser is probably accurate... saying "don't allay yourself with a bunch of terrorist sympathisers" to MP's that aren't sympathetic to terrorists in the least may be seen as trying to smear by association or make people vote your way by fear of smear
Sounds like a persuasive argument made plausible by the Opposition to this being led by a bunch of terrorist sympathisers. What's your objection exactly? That he's trying to win support or that he called a spade a spade?
Not sure smear is right. Smears are normally false. He's trying to win support by association yes. As leaders generally do.
As Nick Cohen alluded too. He's no pacifist either, he's quite happy when the aggression is aimed at the West.
It's the equivalent of saying to social workers in Rotherham circa 2008 who report signs of trouble with Pakistani men and paedophilia
"Don't side with Nick Griffin"0 -
Yup and it cost UKIP several, probably six, seats. "Sorry, Nige, but I couldn't take the chance [of Labour governing with the SNP]" . That poster with Miliband in Salmond's pocket was the most effective bit of political advertising since the genius "Labour isn't working" poster in 1979.TheScreamingEagles said:
The tipping point in the campaign for us Tory canvassers was when Salmond said "I'm going to write Labour's budget line by line"Pulpstar said:
I thought the Salmond posters portraying him as a thief at the GE went a bit far, but the public loved it.AlastairMeeks said:It's incredibly low of David Cameron to use the phrase "terrorist sympathisers" and it will be brutally effective. That's what the public believes and all discussion of it will only help the Conservatives. The yelps of outrage are what he wants.
Turned the Tories from the largest party in a hung parliament into a Tory majority.0 -
Seems like Turkey is being hung out to dry? No way the US wouldn't have known these things up to now.ReggieCide said:
From this and his commitment to more boots on the ground, it does look like Obama might have found some balls. I wonder why?DecrepitJohnL said:
That article continues: Obama also hinted at US frustration over [Turkey's] inability to seal a border used by Isis to smuggle reinforcements and supplies into Syria.Scott_P said:@patrickwintour: US announces 'expeditionary force' to target Isis in Iraq and Syria https://t.co/dkzyz3AOFa
“There are about 98 kilometres that are still used as a transit point for foreign fighters [and] Isil shipping out fuel for sale that helps finance their terrorist activities,” said Obama.
Have any other world leaders made the same allegation recently?0 -
It's weird, being willing to stand for the leadership even though his brother was an obvious candidate was one of the things I liked about Ed M. Maybe it's because I too am a younger brother.notme said:
I winced at it as well. But it was the first proper strike of the election campaign, the tories knew that him stabbing his brother in the back was one of the few things that people knew about Ed, and didn't like him for it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm surprised Dave didn't contract it out to Michael Fallon like he did during the General Election.AlastairMeeks said:It's incredibly low of David Cameron to use the phrase "terrorist sympathisers" and it will be brutally effective. That's what the public believes and all discussion of it will only help the Conservatives. The yelps of outrage are what he wants.
Even I winced at that attack on Ed Miliband.0 -
Including on PB. Several posters gave early warnings of this and were disappeared. Mr Jones, to be fair, *did* actually side with Nick Griffin - but that didn't stop him being prescient.Luckyguy1983 said:
That's pretty much what did happen is it not?0 -
The French and Belgian security forces are going after the terrorists "at home", as should we as well (and we arrested 300 or so last year), and we should go after them in Iraq, Syria, and any other place that they have sanctuary. It's not one of the other that is needed but both, using policing where we can, and military force when we can't.isam said:
Then bomb Molenbeek, the outskirts of Paris and the East End of Londonglw said:
If people side with Corbyn I do condemn them as well. I find it astonishing that there is any hesitation to deal ruthlessly with the likes of the terrorists in Paris.kle4 said:Which you can do, but is problematic for politicians to do (though it doesn't stop them saying voters are stupid, eg 'only voted in Cameron as they didn't understand what the Tories would do' sort of argument)
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Mr Llama, present yourself for re-education at once!HurstLlama said:
Fair enough, and personally I am not that bothered about how other cultures treat their people in their own lands. However, when people from cultures with those sort of attitudes come to live here in the UK then I do not think it unreasonable to ask them to leave their medieval belief systems about the rule of law and rights of individuals at the immigration desk.MTimT said:
Indeed, try to tell a Pakistani apostate that he has a free choice to change religion.Sean_F said:
There I beg to differ, and I think it shows how we lack imagination in Western societies. We think that the rest of the world, outside Western Europe, North East and West Coast America, is just dying to be like us, or would be, if they were sufficiently well educated.Beverley_C said:
People are born black, white, brown, yellow, male, female, able, disabled, gay, straight or whatever. They get no choice in this. No one is born muslim, buddhist, christian, jewish or aetheist and whatever religion or culture you are brought up in you can always change it. Plenty of people convert to other religions or "go native" in another culture.MTimT said:
I am not sure that equality is anything less of a cultural phenomenon than other ideas or indeed that religion is much of a choice for the greater part of the world.
Changeable attributes like religion and culture should never trump innate characteristics, not even for vote-grubbing politicians who spout the mantra of equality without actually caring what it means.
Outside these prosperous enclaves, peoples' religion and culture is absolutely what they love and value, and is as central to them as race, gender, sexuality is to us.
Tell a slave in Mauritania that he was born equal.
Tell a woman in Saudi Arabia that she was born equal.
Tell a gay man in Uganda or Iran that he was born equal.
Tell a leper in Yemen that she is equal.
I know what their responses would be.0 -
So Cameron makes a comment at a Tory meeting, which is then leaked to the press, and gets the phrase "terrorist sympathisers" all over the news a day before the by-election
Lucky for Labour he's not very good at politics...0 -
Intelligence about possible attacks on the US would be my guess.ReggieCide said:
From this and his commitment to more boots on the ground, it does look like Obama might have found some balls. I wonder why?DecrepitJohnL said:
That article continues: Obama also hinted at US frustration over [Turkey's] inability to seal a border used by Isis to smuggle reinforcements and supplies into Syria.Scott_P said:@patrickwintour: US announces 'expeditionary force' to target Isis in Iraq and Syria https://t.co/dkzyz3AOFa
“There are about 98 kilometres that are still used as a transit point for foreign fighters [and] Isil shipping out fuel for sale that helps finance their terrorist activities,” said Obama.
Have any other world leaders made the same allegation recently?0 -
A very substantial minority of people in this country are opposed to the bombing, not just the usual suspects. If they are all terrorist sympathisers then thee is a lot of it about.kle4 said:
The problem with taking such a strong view against Corbyn based on those comments is that apparently millions of people will still intend to vote for a party he leads, so you will need to condemn millions of voters as not being reasonable as well. Which you can do, but is problematic for politicians to do (though it doesn't stop them saying voters are stupid, eg 'only voted in Cameron as they didn't understand what the Tories would do' sort of argument)glw said:
The moment Corbyn ummed and ahhed about the police shooting rifle and bomb toting terrorist set on a killing spree is the point at which any reasonably person would conclude that Corbyn really doesn't give a f*ck about our safety. So f*ck him and everyone who supports him.Cyclefree said:It's not as if Labour members weren't warned, repeatedly, about Corbyn and his associations and the harm this would do. Lots of people warned them. They ignored the warnings or poo-poohed them. Now what a lot of people predicted would happen has happened. And they're shouting that it's not fair. Well, diddums.
Edit: 10,000 posts, yeesh. And that not including pre Vanilla days.0 -
Wasn't there a CofE Bishop who was an ex-Muslim not long ago?Beverley_C said:
The "one way door" is because of culture. If you recant islam your DNA does not finish you off, nor are you born with the Bible, Koran, Torah or any other holy book imprinted into your inner being and dictating your outlook and actions.Floater said:
Changing FROM Islam is a bit of a problem Bev.Beverley_C said:
People are born black, white, brown, yellow, male, female, able, disabled, gay, straight or whatever. They get no choice in this. No one is born muslim, buddhist, christian, jewish or aetheist and whatever religion or culture you are brought up in you can always change it. Plenty of people convert to other religions or "go native" in another culture.MTimT said:
I am not sure that equality is anything less of a cultural phenomenon than other ideas or indeed that religion is much of a choice for the greater part of the world.
Changeable attributes like religion and culture should never trump innate characteristics, not even for vote-grubbing politicians who spout the mantra of equality without actually caring what it means.
A one way door that one.
Having bigots kill you because they disagree with you does not make it right. You can safely recant Islam as long as a lunatic with a kalashnikov is not standing beside you.0 -
I thought the Tories didn't want Labour to lose the by-election?Scott_P said:So Cameron makes a comment at a Tory meeting, which is then leaked to the press, and gets the phrase "terrorist sympathisers" all over the news a day before the by-election
Lucky for Labour he's not very good at politics...
Besides, what it is is counter productive to getting even those who dislike Corbyn to vote with him on Syria, as they may well see it as going too far, and do not want to be seen to be saying the same by siding with Cameron on the vote.0 -
We had a script to talk about other things but the voters kept on mentioning it to us unprompted.HurstLlama said:
Yup and it cost UKIP several, probably six, seats. "Sorry, Nige, but I couldn't take the chance [of Labour governing with the SNP]" . That poster with Miliband in Salmond's pocket was the most effective bit of political advertising since the genius "Labour isn't working" poster in 1979.TheScreamingEagles said:
The tipping point in the campaign for us Tory canvassers was when Salmond said "I'm going to write Labour's budget line by line"Pulpstar said:
I thought the Salmond posters portraying him as a thief at the GE went a bit far, but the public loved it.AlastairMeeks said:It's incredibly low of David Cameron to use the phrase "terrorist sympathisers" and it will be brutally effective. That's what the public believes and all discussion of it will only help the Conservatives. The yelps of outrage are what he wants.
Turned the Tories from the largest party in a hung parliament into a Tory majority.
Reading the Goodwin book on UKIP and the General Election, and UKIP weren't in contention for that many seats even before Salmond's interventions.0 -
Indeed. Even many of those who support the bombing are not without concerns.foxinsoxuk said:
A very substantial minority of people in this country are opposed to the bombing, not just the usual suspects. If they are all terrorist sympathisers then thee is a lot of it about.kle4 said:
The problem with taking such a strong view against Corbyn based on those comments is that apparently millions of people will still intend to vote for a party he leads, so you will need to condemn millions of voters as not being reasonable as well. Which you can do, but is problematic for politicians to do (though it doesn't stop them saying voters are stupid, eg 'only voted in Cameron as they didn't understand what the Tories would do' sort of argument)glw said:
The moment Corbyn ummed and ahhed about the police shooting rifle and bomb toting terrorist set on a killing spree is the point at which any reasonably person would conclude that Corbyn really doesn't give a f*ck about our safety. So f*ck him and everyone who supports him.Cyclefree said:It's not as if Labour members weren't warned, repeatedly, about Corbyn and his associations and the harm this would do. Lots of people warned them. They ignored the warnings or poo-poohed them. Now what a lot of people predicted would happen has happened. And they're shouting that it's not fair. Well, diddums.
Edit: 10,000 posts, yeesh. And that not including pre Vanilla days.0 -
"Line by line"?TheScreamingEagles said:
The tipping point in the campaign for us Tory canvassers was when Salmond said "I'm going to write Labour's budget line by line"Pulpstar said:
I thought the Salmond posters portraying him as a thief at the GE went a bit far, but the public loved it.AlastairMeeks said:It's incredibly low of David Cameron to use the phrase "terrorist sympathisers" and it will be brutally effective. That's what the public believes and all discussion of it will only help the Conservatives. The yelps of outrage are what he wants.
You do know that putting inverted commas around a sentence is defining it as a quote? Or perhaps you don't.0 -
Enough!
Goodnight.0 -
@elliotttimes: Cameron's "terrorist sympathisers" comment has cost 20 Labour MPs already suggests a well-placed source. Touch of the Flashman.0
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I respected him gaming the rules which allowed him to get an endorsement from the unions along with the ballot papers, giving him the slight edge, which of course was all that he needed.kle4 said:
It's weird, being willing to stand for the leadership even though his brother was an obvious candidate was one of the things I liked about Ed M. Maybe it's because I too am a younger brother.notme said:
I winced at it as well. But it was the first proper strike of the election campaign, the tories knew that him stabbing his brother in the back was one of the few things that people knew about Ed, and didn't like him for it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm surprised Dave didn't contract it out to Michael Fallon like he did during the General Election.AlastairMeeks said:It's incredibly low of David Cameron to use the phrase "terrorist sympathisers" and it will be brutally effective. That's what the public believes and all discussion of it will only help the Conservatives. The yelps of outrage are what he wants.
Even I winced at that attack on Ed Miliband.0 -
And it still isn't resolved. When it is, and the perpetrators are breaking rocks in some far flung penal colony, we will be on the road to recovery as a country. It won't cause it, but it will correlate with it.GeoffM said:
Including on PB. Several posters gave early warnings of this and were disappeared. Mr Jones, to be fair, *did* actually side with Nick Griffin - but that didn't stop him being prescient.Luckyguy1983 said:
That's pretty much what did happen is it not?0 -
Incidentally, didn't STW oppose sanctions against Saddam because of all the innocent Iraqi babies who died as a result? Or am I misremembering? Would that have been when one J Corbyn was its chair? Were there any votes on sanctions in Parliament?
For all BJO's talk about Corbyn being in favour of financial sanctions it would be interesting to know his views and his votes on this when the West did impose sanctions on Middle Eastern countries such as Iraq and Iran.0 -
Are you thinking of Bishop Nazir-Ali? His father was a Shia convert and he was born in Pakistan. He's the closest that I recall off the top of my head, sorry.OldKingCole said:
Wasn't there a CofE Bishop who was an ex-Muslim not long ago?Beverley_C said:
The "one way door" is because of culture. If you recant islam your DNA does not finish you off, nor are you born with the Bible, Koran, Torah or any other holy book imprinted into your inner being and dictating your outlook and actions.Floater said:
Changing FROM Islam is a bit of a problem Bev.Beverley_C said:
People are born black, white, brown, yellow, male, female, able, disabled, gay, straight or whatever. They get no choice in this. No one is born muslim, buddhist, christian, jewish or aetheist and whatever religion or culture you are brought up in you can always change it. Plenty of people convert to other religions or "go native" in another culture.MTimT said:
I am not sure that equality is anything less of a cultural phenomenon than other ideas or indeed that religion is much of a choice for the greater part of the world.
Changeable attributes like religion and culture should never trump innate characteristics, not even for vote-grubbing politicians who spout the mantra of equality without actually caring what it means.
A one way door that one.
Having bigots kill you because they disagree with you does not make it right. You can safely recant Islam as long as a lunatic with a kalashnikov is not standing beside you.
Edit: wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Nazir-Ali0 -
How does one see the menu for the competition BTW?0
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Actually that's a good point - the remark is much more potent for Labour waverers worried about de-selection or party loyalty than for Conservative MPs who genuinely think extending the air campaign is counter-productive.TheScreamingEagles said:@elliotttimes: Cameron's "terrorist sympathisers" comment has cost 20 Labour MPs already suggests a well-placed source. Touch of the Flashman.
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Foolish. Corbyn looking stronger by the hour. Wouldn't be surprised by only a few dozen Lab supporters of the motion now. If all he wanted was the motion to pass, he can get it, but beyond that, what was the point of all this hassle if at the end of the day, Labour are solidly behind Corbyn (or at least not opposed to him)?TheScreamingEagles said:@elliotttimes: Cameron's "terrorist sympathisers" comment has cost 20 Labour MPs already suggests a well-placed source. Touch of the Flashman.
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'Cost' ?TheScreamingEagles said:@elliotttimes: Cameron's "terrorist sympathisers" comment has cost 20 Labour MPs already suggests a well-placed source. Touch of the Flashman.
Which way ? I'd imagine it might cost HIM some Labour votes, not sure I'd like my leader being described that way even if I was in favour of bombing on the Labour side. Or has it cost Labour some votes as they don't want to be seen with Jezbollah ?0 -
@SamCoatesTimes: Tonight The Times / YouGov publish a new poll revealing that support for bombing Syria has dropped sharply in a week0
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I do, you're reading too much into my attempts to get used to an iPad Pro after using a standard sized iPad for nearly six yearsTheuniondivvie said:
"Line by line"?TheScreamingEagles said:
The tipping point in the campaign for us Tory canvassers was when Salmond said "I'm going to write Labour's budget line by line"Pulpstar said:
I thought the Salmond posters portraying him as a thief at the GE went a bit far, but the public loved it.AlastairMeeks said:It's incredibly low of David Cameron to use the phrase "terrorist sympathisers" and it will be brutally effective. That's what the public believes and all discussion of it will only help the Conservatives. The yelps of outrage are what he wants.
You do know that putting inverted commas around a sentence is defining it as a quote? Or perhaps you don't.0 -
Yeah the people who talk about UN sanctions now are in many cases the same people who have protested UN sanctions in the past. Really they want us to do nothing at all.Cyclefree said:Incidentally, didn't STW oppose sanctions against Saddam because of all the innocent Iraqi babies who died as a result? Or am I misremembering? Would that have been when one J Corbyn was its chair? Were there any votes on sanctions in Parliament?
For all BJO's talk about Corbyn being in favour of financial sanctions it would be interesting to know his views and his votes on this when the West did impose sanctions on Middle Eastern countries such as Iraq and Iran.0 -
I spent a few hours in Oldham West & Royton today taking the temperature. Everyone seems to be saying Labour will narrowly hold on but I'm not sure how much of that is expectation management.0
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It's the small box with 3 lines on it, at the top-right of the competition frame. Like where the menu would be in a mobile-phone app.Cyclefree said:How does one see the menu for the competition BTW?
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Umm, that's the point. Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser by his own admission, and the PLP are solidly with him.kle4 said:what was the point of all this hassle if at the end of the day, Labour are solidly behind Corbyn (or at least not opposed to him)?
Election leaflets write themselves0 -
By the way, I see the collective minds of PB are now predicting the LDs hold their deposit. Good odds on that?
Edit: Thanks to a 'prediction' of a LD win on 55% of the vote from one 'David Cameron'. Seems legit.0 -
Eh? 20 Lab MPs who were going to vote for will now vote against? Or vice versa?TheScreamingEagles said:@elliotttimes: Cameron's "terrorist sympathisers" comment has cost 20 Labour MPs already suggests a well-placed source. Touch of the Flashman.
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Nah, I am retired now and I can say what I damn well please. I did my full ration of "Diversity" and "Diversity for managers" and all the rest of the courses and I mouthed the garbage as required because a goodly chunk of my work was in the public sector.Floater said:
Mr Llama, present yourself for re-education at once!HurstLlama said:
Fair enough, and personally I am not that bothered about how other cultures treat their people in their own lands. However, when people from cultures with those sort of attitudes come to live here in the UK then I do not think it unreasonable to ask them to leave their medieval belief systems about the rule of law and rights of individuals at the immigration desk.MTimT said:
Indeed, try to tell a Pakistani apostate that he has a free choice to change religion.Sean_F said:
There I beg to differ, and I think it shows how we lack imagination in Western societies. We think that the rest of the world, outside Western Europe, North East and West Coast America, is just dying to be like us, or would be, if they were sufficiently well educated.Beverley_C said:
People are born black, white, brown, yellow, male, female, able, disabled, gay, straight or whatever. They get no choice in this. No one is born muslim, buddhist, christian, jewish or aetheist and whatever religion or culture you are brought up in you can always change it. Plenty of people convert to other religions or "go native" in another culture.MTimT said:
I am not sure that equality is anything less of a cultural phenomenon than other ideas or indeed that religion is much of a choice for the greater part of the world.
Changeable attributes like religion and culture should never trump innate characteristics, not even for vote-grubbing politicians who spout the mantra of equality without actually caring what it means.
Outside these prosperous enclaves, peoples' religion and culture is absolutely what they love and value, and is as central to them as race, gender, sexuality is to us.
Tell a slave in Mauritania that he was born equal.
Tell a woman in Saudi Arabia that she was born equal.
Tell a gay man in Uganda or Iran that he was born equal.
Tell a leper in Yemen that she is equal.
I know what their responses would be.0 -
I take back everything bad I've ever said about Mark Zuckerberg.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34978249
What a decent chap.0 -
Telegraph go with Corbyn the terrorist sympathiser line
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVLALIAWsAAeGng.jpg0 -
@SamCoatesTimes: YouGov / Times also found Corbyn support dropping sharply. % think Lab leader doing well drops from 30 per cent to 24 per cent in a week.0
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Well, duh...TheScreamingEagles said:Telegraph go with Corbyn the terrorist sympathiser line
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVLALIAWsAAeGng.jpg0 -
Line one on the BBC News - siding with terrorist sympathisers0
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The Matt cartoon looks good!TheScreamingEagles said:Telegraph go with Corbyn the terrorist sympathiser line
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVLALIAWsAAeGng.jpg0 -
Corbyn wants the French to stop. 130 dead - so, do nothing.0
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Thank you very much.MarkHopkins said:
It's the small box with 3 lines on it, at the top-right of the competition frame. Like where the menu would be in a mobile-phone app.Cyclefree said:How does one see the menu for the competition BTW?
0 -
So Isam let me get this straight. You agree with what Cameron said, you agree it's effective, you agree that it's his job to try and win support for what he is proposing.
But you disagree as attacking opponents is a bad thing?
We are about as likely to see flying pigs as we are to see political opponents not be attacked in honest and effective ways when it is appropriate.0 -
Silly me, I had thought Cameron had hoped to combine politics with what he saw as the national need by building a big consensus on Syria while also wounding Corbyn. Instead we have Labour possibly wounded and no big consensus at all.Scott_P said:
Umm, that's the point. Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser by his own admission, and the PLP are solidly with him.kle4 said:what was the point of all this hassle if at the end of the day, Labour are solidly behind Corbyn (or at least not opposed to him)?
Election leaflets write themselves0 -
This isn't going to be the last vote about ISIS and at same point we are going to need national agreement on what may be a long term commitment and possibly substantial loss of life. Stupid throwaway comments like this make it less likely and let's the country down.Scott_P said:So Cameron makes a comment at a Tory meeting, which is then leaked to the press, and gets the phrase "terrorist sympathisers" all over the news a day before the by-election
Lucky for Labour he's not very good at politics...
Corbyn's mendacity and amoral politics peak for themselves. But there is, as supporters of all parties on here accept, a reasonable position in voting no in air strikes in Syria.0 -
Didn't he have a hundred in the bag anyway?TheWhiteRabbit said:
Eh? 20 Lab MPs who were going to vote for will now vote against? Or vice versa?TheScreamingEagles said:@elliotttimes: Cameron's "terrorist sympathisers" comment has cost 20 Labour MPs already suggests a well-placed source. Touch of the Flashman.
0 -
The Osborne story is also good.Richard_Nabavi said:
The Matt cartoon looks good!TheScreamingEagles said:Telegraph go with Corbyn the terrorist sympathiser line
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVLALIAWsAAeGng.jpg0 -
Mark Zuckerberg to give away 99% of his shares !
That's a 35.4 Billion $ charity donation by my reckoning.0 -
@PolhomeEditor: Latest update. Source says 50 Labour MPs definitely voting for bombing, with another 30 "still in play".0
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No there isn't. Not while supporting air strikes against the exact same target across a non existing border.Tom said:
This isn't going to be the last vote about ISIS and at same point we are going to need national agreement on what may be a long term commitment and possibly substantial loss of life. Stupid throwaway comments like this make it less likely and let's the country down.Scott_P said:So Cameron makes a comment at a Tory meeting, which is then leaked to the press, and gets the phrase "terrorist sympathisers" all over the news a day before the by-election
Lucky for Labour he's not very good at politics...
Corbyn's mendacity and amoral politics peak for themselves. But there is, as supporters of all parties on here accept, a reasonable position in voting no in air strikes in Syria.
Not while maintaining alliances with the French.
Not if you believe in the UNSC which unanimously backed action.
What reason is there for UK pilots to fly past targets in Syria to attack targets in the same region of the same group in Iraq?0 -
YouGov poll for the Times
Cons have an 11% lead, was 6% at the end of September.0 -
I agree that Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser, but you certainly haven't got anything else straightPhilip_Thompson said:So Isam let me get this straight. You agree with what Cameron said, you agree it's effective, you agree that it's his job to try and win support for what he is proposing.
But you disagree as attacking opponents is a bad thing?
We are about as likely to see flying pigs as we are to see political opponents not be attacked in honest and effective ways when it is appropriate.
The comparison that comes to mind is "Don't say anything about the paedos in Rotherham else you're on the same side as Nick Griffin"
He should make the case for the air strikes without resorting to guilt by association. It's not as if the Conservative MP's he was speaking to are children, so why use playground tactics?
We have no proof whatsoever that it has been effective in allowing us to bomb Syria
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Well, it ties those Labour MPs to a toxic leader. I thought that was part of the Tory strategy: to tar Labour - all of Labour - with the toxicity of Corbyn and McDonnell et al so that even when they go the Labour brand is tarnished by their brand of extremism.kle4 said:
Foolish. Corbyn looking stronger by the hour. Wouldn't be surprised by only a few dozen Lab supporters of the motion now. If all he wanted was the motion to pass, he can get it, but beyond that, what was the point of all this hassle if at the end of the day, Labour are solidly behind Corbyn (or at least not opposed to him)?TheScreamingEagles said:@elliotttimes: Cameron's "terrorist sympathisers" comment has cost 20 Labour MPs already suggests a well-placed source. Touch of the Flashman.
Whether it's the sensible thing to do re the vote is another matter. Honey is better than vinegar at catching wasps. But it may be at this point that Cameron feels that Labour MPs - even those who claim to be against Corbyn - are simply too unreliable or too scared to put their heads above the parapet. He can show allies that he has tried his best. And he can point to Labour as the stumbling block. I doubt that the French or the Americans or other countries will be particularly impressed by the way Labour are behaving.0 -
I'm not even on a plane?? (I was on Sunday though, which is when the fieldwork may have been!)TheScreamingEagles said:YouGov poll for the Times
Cons have an 11% lead, was 6% at the end of September.0 -
As I said earlier. If I were in Oldham and 50 Lab MPs voted to bomb on Wednesday, I wouldnt vote Labour on ThursdayAndyJS said:I spent a few hours in Oldham West & Royton today taking the temperature. Everyone seems to be saying Labour will narrowly hold on but I'm not sure how much of that is expectation management.
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Hard to make out - I think it says "I don't have to take this. If I wanted to be ignored I could lead the Labour party"?Richard_Nabavi said:
The Matt cartoon looks good!TheScreamingEagles said:Telegraph go with Corbyn the terrorist sympathiser line
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVLALIAWsAAeGng.jpg
I had assumed Corbyn would get a lead at some point no matter how poor. It will have to be a late honeymoon for that to happen, during a Tory implosion.TheScreamingEagles said:YouGov poll for the Times
Cons have an 11% lead, was 6% at the end of September.0 -
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I filled one on Saturday that covered this topic, so it might have covered Sunday tooRobD said:
I'm not even on a plane?? (I was on Sunday though, which is when the fieldwork may have been!)TheScreamingEagles said:YouGov poll for the Times
Cons have an 11% lead, was 6% at the end of September.0 -
Mr Llama: I did one of my diversity talks today. True diversity not the bollocks diversity with a capital D you no doubt had to put up with. It is a shame that it was private and not open to the public. I think you would have enjoyed it. One day, one day......HurstLlama said:
Nah, I am retired now and I can say what I damn well please. I did my full ration of "Diversity" and "Diversity for managers" and all the rest of the courses and I mouthed the garbage as required because a goodly chunk of my work was in the public sector.Floater said:
Mr Llama, present yourself for re-education at once!HurstLlama said:
Fair enough, and personally I am not that bothered about how other cultures treat their people in their own lands. However, when people from cultures with those sort of attitudes come to live here in the UK then I do not think it unreasonable to ask them to leave their medieval belief systems about the rule of law and rights of individuals at the immigration desk.MTimT said:
Indeed, try to tell a Pakistani apostate that he has a free choice to change religion.Sean_F said:
There I beg to differ, and I think it shows how we lack imagination in Western societies. We think that the rest of the world, outside Western Europe, North East and West Coast America, is just dying to be like us, or would be, if they were sufficiently well educated.Beverley_C said:
People are born black, white, brown, yellow, male, female, able, disabled, gay, straight or whatever. They get no choice in this. No one is born muslim, buddhist, christian, jewish or aetheist and whatever religion or culture you are brought up in you can always change it. Plenty of people convert to other religions or "go native" in another culture.MTimT said:
I am not sure that equality is anything less of a cultural phenomenon than other ideas or indeed that religion is much of a choice for the greater part of the world.
Changeable attributes like religion and culture should never trump innate characteristics, not even for vote-grubbing politicians who spout the mantra of equality without actually caring what it means.
Outside these prosperous enclaves, peoples' religion and culture is absolutely what they love and value, and is as central to them as race, gender, sexuality is to us.
Tell a slave in Mauritania that he was born equal.
Tell a woman in Saudi Arabia that she was born equal.
Tell a gay man in Uganda or Iran that he was born equal.
Tell a leper in Yemen that she is equal.
I know what their responses would be.0 -
Yes, it's very interesting.TheScreamingEagles said:The Osborne story is also good.
It's a tricky one because pretty much everyone agrees that bona-fide students coming here and paying fat fees for the privilege is a good thing, the more the merrier. However, it accounts for a large chunk of the immigration figures according to the internationally-accepted definition, and you don't want to appear to be 'fiddling the figures' by excluding students. The difficulty as I see it is that students don't seem to be leaving at the end of their courses in the numbers you'd expect to see.0 -
The weather is looking very bad for Labour, with heavy rain now forecast for almost the whole of polling day:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/26410220 -
You expected him to reach consensus with the terrorist sympathiser? I think he tried but clearly that was impossible so next best option is to go for the jugular.kle4 said:
Silly me, I had thought Cameron had hoped to combine politics with what he saw as the national need by building a big consensus on Syria while also wounding Corbyn. Instead we have Labour possibly wounded and no big consensus at all.Scott_P said:
Umm, that's the point. Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser by his own admission, and the PLP are solidly with him.kle4 said:what was the point of all this hassle if at the end of the day, Labour are solidly behind Corbyn (or at least not opposed to him)?
Election leaflets write themselves
Or maybe he could have given him flowers?
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Why? Are there no umbrellas in Oldham?AndyJS said:The weather is looking very bad for Labour, with heavy rain now forecast for almost the whole of polling day:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/26410220 -
That is an amazing Telegraph front page...0
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So JC is rated by 65% if people as doing badly. He's certainly making an impression.0
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Labour voters are usually the most prone to stay at home, especially in by-elections.Cyclefree said:
Why? Are there no umbrellas in Oldham?AndyJS said:The weather is looking very bad for Labour, with heavy rain now forecast for almost the whole of polling day:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/26410220 -
My favourite work 'training' was about leadership in the workplace, and all about identifying types of people, what type of person you were, and how to get the best out of everyone. Not a bad idea I guess, but with the presentation it felt like integration training for sociopaths, being taught what it means to be human and how to present themselves differently as a result so they can better manipulate people without people noticing.0
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I had thought a Corbyn lead was inevitable at some point. Now I'm doubtful. The Tories will have a mid-term slump even if they don't implode. Labour may not benefit though (and they could well split, of course).kle4 said:
Hard to make out - I think it says "I don't have to take this. If I wanted to be ignored I could lead the Labour party"?Richard_Nabavi said:
The Matt cartoon looks good!TheScreamingEagles said:Telegraph go with Corbyn the terrorist sympathiser line
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVLALIAWsAAeGng.jpg
I had assumed Corbyn would get a lead at some point no matter how poor. It will have to be a late honeymoon for that to happen, during a Tory implosion.TheScreamingEagles said:YouGov poll for the Times
Cons have an 11% lead, was 6% at the end of September.0 -
· The gender gap has widened. Now men favour airstrikes by more than two-to-one (58-26 per cent), while women divide evenly: 39-36 per cent.
· Those who voted Labour in May have switched from backing military action by 52-26 per cent a week ago, to opposing it, by 42-35 per cent today0 -
You heard @IOS, they need to be "reminded" there is a General Election on.AndyJS said:
Labour voters are usually the most prone to stay at home, especially in by-elections.Cyclefree said:
Why? Are there no umbrellas in Oldham?AndyJS said:The weather is looking very bad for Labour, with heavy rain now forecast for almost the whole of polling day:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/26410220 -
About 20% of Students are still in the country 5 years later. 50 000 per year. The numbers vary a great deal by country of origin. 99% of Chinese return but the numbers are much lower from the sub-continent and middle east. The latter are also much more likely to bring partners or family with them.Richard_Nabavi said:
Yes, it's very interesting.TheScreamingEagles said:The Osborne story is also good.
It's a tricky one because pretty much everyone agrees that bona-fide students coming here and paying fat fees for the privilege is a good thing, the more the merrier. However, it accounts for a large chunk of the immigration figures according to the internationally-accepted definition, and you don't want to appear to be 'fiddling the figures' by excluding students. The difficulty as I see it is that students don't seem to be leaving at the end of the course in the numbers you'd expect to see.
Personally I would ban accompanying family or working more than 16 hours per week and also require annual renewal contingent on an academic referee with attendance discussed. I think it would quickly weed out those exploiting the system.0 -
I assumed he wanted as many MPs as possible to support him on this, and apparently his blunt comments on Corbyn may have cost him some support, to no more gain than he would have had from not saying it (Corbyn is still leader and most Lab MPs will probably back him or abstain, so Cameron could still paint them all as being like him). No he couldn't get Corbyn on board, the man would not have agreed if Karl Marx rose from the dead to give it the ok, he is resolute, but others were amenable.Philip_Thompson said:
You expected him to reach consensus with the terrorist sympathiser? I think he tried but clearly that was impossible so next best option is to go for the jugular.kle4 said:
Silly me, I had thought Cameron had hoped to combine politics with what he saw as the national need by building a big consensus on Syria while also wounding Corbyn. Instead we have Labour possibly wounded and no big consensus at all.Scott_P said:
Umm, that's the point. Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser by his own admission, and the PLP are solidly with him.kle4 said:what was the point of all this hassle if at the end of the day, Labour are solidly behind Corbyn (or at least not opposed to him)?
Election leaflets write themselves
Or maybe he could have given him flowers?0 -
Labour are fucked, aren't they.TheScreamingEagles said:· The gender gap has widened. Now men favour airstrikes by more than two-to-one (58-26 per cent), while women divide evenly: 39-36 per cent.
· Those who voted Labour in May have switched from backing military action by 52-26 per cent a week ago, to opposing it, by 42-35 per cent today0 -
It may be that at this point Mr Cameron is knackered and is losing his diplomatic instinct.Cyclefree said:
Well, it ties those Labour MPs to a toxic leader. I thought that was part of the Tory strategy: to tar Labour - all of Labour - with the toxicity of Corbyn and McDonnell et al so that even when they go the Labour brand is tarnished by their brand of extremism.kle4 said:
Foolish. Corbyn looking stronger by the hour. Wouldn't be surprised by only a few dozen Lab supporters of the motion now. If all he wanted was the motion to pass, he can get it, but beyond that, what was the point of all this hassle if at the end of the day, Labour are solidly behind Corbyn (or at least not opposed to him)?TheScreamingEagles said:@elliotttimes: Cameron's "terrorist sympathisers" comment has cost 20 Labour MPs already suggests a well-placed source. Touch of the Flashman.
Whether it's the sensible thing to do re the vote is another matter. Honey is better than vinegar at catching wasps. But it may be at this point that Cameron feels that Labour MPs - even those who claim to be against Corbyn - are simply too unreliable or too scared to put their heads above the parapet. He can show allies that he has tried his best. And he can point to Labour as the stumbling block. I doubt that the French or the Americans or other countries will be particularly impressed by the way Labour are behaving.
(edited to remove duplicated word)0 -
Correct Mr llama, pb Tories think Cameron is the messiah, the reality is an unbelievably clever poster won him the election, he's done nothing to to deserve the veneration he gets from the sycophants.HurstLlama said:
Yup and it cost UKIP several, probably six, seats. "Sorry, Nige, but I couldn't take the chance [of Labour governing with the SNP]" . That poster with Miliband in Salmond's pocket was the most effective bit of political advertising since the genius "Labour isn't working" poster in 1979.TheScreamingEagles said:
The tipping point in the campaign for us Tory canvassers was when Salmond said "I'm going to write Labour's budget line by line"Pulpstar said:
I thought the Salmond posters portraying him as a thief at the GE went a bit far, but the public loved it.AlastairMeeks said:It's incredibly low of David Cameron to use the phrase "terrorist sympathisers" and it will be brutally effective. That's what the public believes and all discussion of it will only help the Conservatives. The yelps of outrage are what he wants.
Turned the Tories from the largest party in a hung parliament into a Tory majority.
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Thanks - where are the figures? I couldn't find any clear summary when I wrote a short briefing paper on this recently.foxinsoxuk said:About 20% of Students are still in the country 5 years later. 50 000 per year. The numbers vary a great deal by country of origin. 99% of Chinese return but the numbers are much lower from the sub-continent and middle east. The latter are also much more likely to bring partners or family with them.
Also, presumably those who stay (legally) are subject to the visa conditions and quotas of the points-based system. But the numbers didn't seem to add up.0 -
Though if we had the points system people talk about they - well, maybe depending on what they had studied - would score pretty highly?Richard_Nabavi said:
Yes, it's very interesting.TheScreamingEagles said:The Osborne story is also good.
It's a tricky one because pretty much everyone agrees that bona-fide students coming here and paying fat fees for the privilege is a good thing, the more the merrier. However, it accounts for a large chunk of the immigration figures according to the internationally-accepted definition, and you don't want to appear to be 'fiddling the figures' by excluding students. The difficulty as I see it is that students don't seem to be leaving at the end of their courses in the numbers you'd expect to see.0 -
Dave has been eating too much fruitcake. It causes the chilons in his brain minerals to expand thus creating an explosion of haggisy vileness in the food-reverence sacred-ness. Am I getting the hang of this?Luckyguy1983 said:
It really is vile. I can't watch it. It's the same as his attitude to the 'fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists' of UKIP, or his vow before the UN to combat 'non-violent extremists' (people who don't disagree with his world view essentially) as well as violent ones - Cameron (on the advice of his American managers) has deliberately polarised the political debate and made it ok to hate those who disagree with his agenda. It's chilling, incredibly un-British, and those 'Cameron-sympathisers' who support him should beware of the day when something they believe or hold dear puts them on the wrong side of it.isam said:
Cameron's "terrorist sympathiser" remark... it implies anyone who doesn't follow his lead is one in my eyes... whether to bomb Syria, which will result in innocent, non ISIS Syrians dying, is a sensitive subject that doesn't need bullying from the PMbigjohnowls said:
Ms Cyclefree has a hard on?isam said:This hard on for bombs isn't very attractive
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I can only assume Cameron wants as many lab mps to voluntarily vote with jc as possible now...0
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YouGov Westminster VI
Con 41% (+4) Lab 30% (-1) UKIP 16 (-1) LD 6 (-1)
Changes since late September0 -
Labour holding up well. They have much further to fall, of course.TheScreamingEagles said:YouGov Westminster VI
Con 41% (+4) Lab 30% (-1) UKIP 16 (-1) LD 6 (-1)
Changes since late September0 -
Lib Dem surge.TheScreamingEagles said:YouGov Westminster VI
Con 41% (+4) Lab 30% (-1) UKIP 16 (-1) LD 6 (-1)
Changes since late September0
This discussion has been closed.