politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s Black Friday and another less than optimal day for Lab

JosiasJessop said:

MaxPB said:

JosiasJessop said:

MaxPB said:

tyson said:

Corbyn's spot on in Syria. Between the Turks, the Russians, Assad, Assad militia, Assad's regular army, Iran, Hezbollah, Islamist Anti Assad freedom fighters, the Kurds, Americans and French and of course Isis- all warring factions and driving the country into utter devastation, I don't quite understand what contribution the use of our six bombers would add to this carnage.

After our input into Libya which resulted in a failed state at Europe's door, a flood of weapons into Africa feeding Boko Haram, illegal poaching and crime, aswell as the creation of a migrant corridor into Italy, Cameron's hardly got a reliable reputation in his foreign policy endeavours.

Roger said:

Having spent his whole political life doing his own thing in his 67th year he's not going to change. He doesn't have a clue what being a party leader is all about.

Whether Corbyn goes or the party disintegrates is the question. I'd say it's too close to call. It's a pity because in this instance I prefer his solution to those who want to bomb without a plan that makes sense

We need a proper plan in Syria, one which doesn't involve removing Assad and dismantling the existing state. The plan from yesterday seems to have realised the mistakes from Iraq and Libya, but it doesn't take into account 4 years of Assad being at loggerheads with the so-called "moderate" opposition. The only way to stabilise Syria would be to wipe out all of the Islamist groups including ISIS, the Turkmen, al-Nusra, Islamic Conquest and others, put a few token FSA leaders into the Assad government and tell them to keep quiet while western aid budgets rebuild Syrian infrastructure. I'm not sure that is on the table, however, it has become clear that ISIS are a threat to us and our way of life, we can't sit on the sidelines while other nations defend our interests.

Are the Turkmen fighters Islamist?

Yes.

Evidence, please. Note 'Muslim' != 'Islamist'

Probably the best answer is 'who knows?'. At present, they arguably have a tactical interest in not directly fighting against ISIL having seen the fate of the FSA. Whether a tolerance for Islamist-inclined individuals would survive were they to establish their own enclave is another matter and an open question to which all we can reasonably say is that it might.

On a similar note, while 'Muslim' does not by any means equal 'Islamist', nor are all shades of Islamist equal.

Regarding the suggestions below that tim may be more right wing than previously thought... nonsense, he couldn't have been clearer that he considers the defeat of the Tories to be more important than everything else... he is angry, very angry, that the Labour Party no longer shares his priorities

MaxPB said:

JosiasJessop said:

MaxPB said:

JosiasJessop said:

MaxPB said:

tyson said:

Corbyn's spot on in Syria. Between the Turks, the Russians, Assad, Assad militia, Assad's regular army, Iran, Hezbollah, Islamist Anti Assad freedom fighters, the Kurds, Americans and French and of course Isis- all warring factions and driving the country into utter devastation, I don't quite understand what contribution the use of our six bombers would add to this carnage.

After our input into Libya which resulted in a failed state at Europe's door, a flood of weapons into Africa feeding Boko Haram, illegal poaching and crime, aswell as the creation of a migrant corridor into Italy, Cameron's hardly got a reliable reputation in his foreign policy endeavours.

Roger said:

Having spent his whole political life doing his own thing in his 67th year he's not going to change. He doesn't have a clue what being a party leader is all about.

Whether Corbyn goes or the party disintegrates is the question. I'd say it's too close to call. It's a pity because in this instance I prefer his solution to those who want to bomb without a plan that makes sense

We need a proper plan in Syria, one which doesn't involve removing Assad and dismantling the existing state. The plan from yesterday seems to have realised the mistakes from Iraq and Libya, but it doesn't take into account 4 years of Assad being at loggerheads with the so-called "moderate" opposition. The only way to stabilise Syria would be to wipe out all of the Islamist groups including ISIS, the Turkmen, al-Nusra, Islamic Conquest and others, put a few token FSA leaders into the Assad government and tell them to keep quiet while western aid budgets rebuild Syrian infrastructure. I'm not sure that is on the table, however, it has become clear that ISIS are a threat to us and our way of life, we can't sit on the sidelines while other nations defend our interests.

Are the Turkmen fighters Islamist?

Yes.

Evidence, please. Note 'Muslim' != 'Islamist'

http://www.state.gov/j/ct/rls/other/des/123086.htm

"Eastern Turkistan Islamic Movement (a.k.a. Eastern Turkistan Islamic Party; a.k.a. ETIM; a.k.a. ETIP)"

Urrrm, you do realise that's a terrorist group in China?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Turkestan_Islamic_Movement
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-24757974

I'd suggest your dislike (or hatred) of Turkey is getting the better of your usual good judgement. There's many good reasons to criticise Turkey and especially Erdogan, but now you're just being silly.

Am I the only one hoping for some good news for Labour to come up? Quite apart from the need for a decent opposition, it is just getting a bit boring at the moment. Perhaps McDonnell could go on holiday for 2 weeks or something to limit the damage for a time at least.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Kerry McCarthy is talking about today's top issue

@KerryMP: Shouldn't say fishermen but "fishers" sounds wrong as a gender neutral alternative?

Chairmen is another one.

Why does this shit matter? No-one complains about human.

Innocent_Abroad said:

Patrick said:

Sure we should bomb the bastards in Syria. But we do need a coherent strategy overall in the WoT. And that means we need to recognise and admit who our real enemies are. As a starter for 10 I'd put these on the list:
1. Active IS fighters - bit of a no brainer
2. The IS support community - for example nobody goes to Raqqa unless they have a basically evil intent. All the 'Jihadi wives', fellow travellers - the lot - are legitimate military targets
3. Saudi Arabia - they fund fundamental Wahhabi Islamism on a huge scale. Yet the west sells tham military kit and pretends they are not what they are. Insane.
4. Qatar - Awash in LNG money and funding and promoting our enemies. Deeply unpleasant and corrupt (not just football!). Yet, as per Saudi Arabia, we shamefully pretend otherwise.
5. Turkey - They protect and support IS. They buy their oil, and thus fund them too. They actively thwart the Kurds in their fight against IS. During the minute's silence for Paris a recent Turkish football crowd at an international game spent the whole minute shouting Allahu Akbar at the top of their voices. We should see them for what they are too. Muslims whose heart is not with us. Or their money. Or their army. WTF are they doing in NATO?

So...I fear we'll not man up to the job we actually face against an unrelenting, un-negotiable-with, unfeeling, medieval monster. Let's smash the monster - not just its outer tentacles.

Would you bomb Mecca?

Is Patrick saying that the Turkish government is supporting the same terrorist movement that has only recently blown up 100 people in its own capital city? That it is in effect paying terrorists to kill its own citizens?

Mr. Royale, when I was doing Religious Studies (which often veered off into unrelated but interesting areas), 'mankind' was deemed by some, the teacher stated, to be sexist. why 'huMANkind' was seen to be better was beyond me.

F1: Raikkonen had a brief MGU-K issue. Worth perhaps remembering in case it flares up during the race.

Morris_Dancer said:

Good morning, everyone.

....

Labour aren't so much jumping the shark or nuking the fridge, as putting the shark in the fridge and then nuking it whilst the Fonz water-skis over the mushroom cloud.

Wanderer said:

CarlottaVance said:

Wanderer said:

tyson said:

Corbyn's spot on in Syria. Between the Turks, the Russians, Assad, Assad militia, Assad's regular army, Iran, Hezbollah, Islamist Anti Assad freedom fighters, the Kurds, Americans and French and of course Isis- all warring factions and driving the country into utter devastation, I don't quite understand what contribution the use of our six bombers would add to this carnage.

After our input into Libya which resulted in a failed state at Europe's door, a flood of weapons into Africa feeding Boko Haram, illegal poaching and crime, aswell as the creation of a migrant corridor into Italy, Cameron's hardly got a reliable reputation in his foreign policy endeavours.

Roger said:

Having spent his whole political life doing his own thing in his 67th year he's not going to change. He doesn't have a clue what being a party leader is all about.

Whether Corbyn goes or the party disintegrates is the question. I'd say it's too close to call. It's a pity because in this instance I prefer his solution to those who want to bomb without a plan that makes sense

How should we respond to the French request for our assistance? We can, of course, refuse, but it would be a pretty huge rebuff.

Moreover, we need British defence capabilities to win this war. The Royal Air Force is already in action over Iraq. Its involvement over Syria would make a practical difference. The RAF has significant capabilities for precision airstrikes, aerial reconnaissance and air-to-air refuelling support. On a daily basis, its Tornado aircraft and unmanned drones are causing very severe damage to Isis in Iraq. The use of these capabilities over Syria would put additional and extreme pressure on the Isis terror network.

Jean Yves Le-Drain French Minister of Defence

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/26/britain-france-fight-isis

That's what I had in mind.

Of course it is not a slam-dunk argument for going to war that our allies are asking us to, but I think we need to take the French request very seriously. Are we going to stand aside from a concerted international attempt to destroy the IS proto-state and limit our contribution to the singing of anthems?

No, just because our allies are doing it does not make it a good reason in itself.

What I have yet to hear is why it is appropriate to degrade Daesh in Iraq, but not in Syria - and Cameron made very clear yesterday - this is about ISIS......we need to finish that job and expunge the caliphate. After that - who knows - but "doing nothing" is almost certainly worse than standing idly by.....

JosiasJessop said:

MaxPB said:

JosiasJessop said:

MaxPB said:

JosiasJessop said:

MaxPB said:

tyson said:

Corbyn's spot on in Syria. Between the Turks, the Russians, Assad, Assad militia, Assad's regular army, Iran, Hezbollah, Islamist Anti Assad freedom fighters, the Kurds, Americans and French and of course Isis- all warring factions and driving the country into utter devastation, I don't quite understand what contribution the use of our six bombers would add to this carnage.

After our input into Libya which resulted in a failed state at Europe's door, a flood of weapons into Africa feeding Boko Haram, illegal poaching and crime, aswell as the creation of a migrant corridor into Italy, Cameron's hardly got a reliable reputation in his foreign policy endeavours.

Roger said:

Having spent his whole political life doing his own thing in his 67th year he's not going to change. He doesn't have a clue what being a party leader is all about.

Whether Corbyn goes or the party disintegrates is the question. I'd say it's too close to call. It's a pity because in this instance I prefer his solution to those who want to bomb without a plan that makes sense

We need a proper plan in Syria, one which doesn't involve removing Assad and dismantling the existing state. The plan from yesterday seems to have realised the mistakes from Iraq and Libya, but it doesn't take into account 4 years of Assad being at loggerheads with the so-called "moderate" opposition. The only way to stabilise Syria would be to wipe out all of the Islamist groups including ISIS, the Turkmen, al-Nusra, Islamic Conquest and others, put a few token FSA leaders into the Assad government and tell them to keep quiet while western aid budgets rebuild Syrian infrastructure. I'm not sure that is on the table, however, it has become clear that ISIS are a threat to us and our way of life, we can't sit on the sidelines while other nations defend our interests.

Are the Turkmen fighters Islamist?

Yes.

Evidence, please. Note 'Muslim' != 'Islamist'

http://www.state.gov/j/ct/rls/other/des/123086.htm

"Eastern Turkistan Islamic Movement (a.k.a. Eastern Turkistan Islamic Party; a.k.a. ETIM; a.k.a. ETIP)"

Urrrm, you do realise that's a terrorist group in China?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Turkestan_Islamic_Movement
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-24757974

I'd suggest your dislike (or hatred) of Turkey is getting the better of your usual good judgement. There's many good reasons to criticise Turkey and especially Erdogan, but now you're just being silly.

They are the same group. I suggest you actually read the Wiki you linked.

Major Rise
‘All Cabinet on IRA hit list’ https://t.co/sOZFXu1FbQ

One out all out.

https://sports.ladbrokes.com/en-gb/betting/politics/british/specials/labour-party-specials/221304100/

Who is off first?

Patrick O'Flynn sounding mildly confident?https://twitter.com/oflynnmep/status/670181064741167104

tyson said:

But JackW- our enemy, ISIS, do not want us to do nothing. Why do they commit these atrocities? They want us to do something, they really want Kafir countries to bomb them. Bombing them fuels their JIHAD, drives up recruitment and funds, and spreads this damned horrible ideology better than any other strategy they could use. Bombing them, or better even still invading them, is what they want.

JackW said:

tyson said:

Corbyn's spot on in Syria. Between the Turks, the Russians, Assad, Assad militia, Assad's regular army, Iran, Hezbollah, Islamist Anti Assad freedom fighters, the Kurds, Americans and French and of course Isis- all warring factions and driving the country into utter devastation, I don't quite understand what contribution the use of our six bombers would add to this carnage.

After our input into Libya which resulted in a failed state at Europe's door, a flood of weapons into Africa feeding Boko Haram, illegal poaching and crime, aswell as the creation of a migrant corridor into Italy, Cameron's hardly got a reliable reputation in his foreign policy endeavours.

Roger said:

Having spent his whole political life doing his own thing in his 67th year he's not going to change. He doesn't have a clue what being a party leader is all about.

Whether Corbyn goes or the party disintegrates is the question. I'd say it's too close to call. It's a pity because in this instance I prefer his solution to those who want to bomb without a plan that makes sense

There are no easy or risk free options here.

Either the UK contributes militarily to the efforts to defeat ISIS in Syria or we rely on others to take the full burden whilst our citizens are beheaded in the middle east or murdered in overseas tourist attractions like Tunisia and potentially face a Paris like outrage in the UK.

In my view the do nothing situation in Syria is the worst of several extremely unenviable prospects.

I think IS really don't want a *successful* military campaign against them. Their mystique is bound up with actually controlling territory, which allows them to claim that they have reestablished the Caliphate.

MaxPB said:

They are the same group. I suggest you actually read the Wiki you linked.

They are not. ETIP are a distinct group from the Turkmen fighters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Turkmen_Brigades

About 2,000 Turkmen are thought to be fighting forces of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad as part of the rebel Free Syrian Army, according to Abdurrahman Mustafa, head of the Syrian Turkmen Assembly in Ankara. Turkey supports the FSA in its efforts to topple Assad, who has been bolstered by Russia’s military intervention on his behalf.
QUICKTAKE
Turkey's Continental Divide
Turkmen are also combating the Islamic State group in Syria, and are said to be poised for a ground offensive to retake strategic crossings on the Turkish-Syrian frontier. The majority of Turkmen are moderate Sunni, though some are said to be close to al-Nusra Front, al-Qaeda’s local affiliate in Syria.
Last weekend marked an escalation in the conflict for Turkmen, with 1,500 of them fleeing to the Turkish border on Sunday amid Russian air raids in the northwest of Syria. Turkey’s Foreign Ministry summoned the Russian ambassador and said that bombing Turkmen villages isn’t part of the fight against terrorism and should cease, according to reports. A Turkmen commander told local news agencies that his people were facing “a human tragedy.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-24/who-are-the-turkmen-fighters-in-control-of-russia-jet-crash-site

So two Labour MPs break cover and call for Corbyn to quit.

https://www.politicshome.com/party-politics/articles/story/former-labour-ministers-call-jeremy-corbyn-resign

F1: Ben Edwards confirms no alcohol advertising is permitted, hence the lack of red.

ToryJim said:

So two Labour MPs break cover and call for Corbyn to quit.

https://www.politicshome.com/party-politics/articles/story/former-labour-ministers-call-jeremy-corbyn-resign

And, as ever, Diane is there with her veiled threats about 'the membership'

She forgets that MPs were elected by voters - and their primary duty is to represent their constituents.

CarlottaVance.

Youi need to have a care on your attacks on Salmond. They look like rebounding rather badly. For a start he was in his place at FMQs in the Scottish Parliament during the Syria statement as you very well know.

What I know from the Paliamentary Bulletin was that the Scottish Parliament war memorial reception for veterans and armed forces which Salmond was hosting was not an evening reception but straight after decision time at 5pm. They all had their picture taken beside the newly restored Caledonian Memorial. Lots of MSPS and Ministers pictured but only ONE ie ONE in total from Labour, Tory and Liberal combined.

So the rest of the unionist MSPs who attacked Salmond for not being in London could not be bothered to walk 50 yards ie 50 yards to honour the fallen from previous conflict!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12020285/Last-week-was-nowhere-close-to-the-worst-of-Labours-history.-This-week-has-surpassed-it-in-so-many-ways.html

Last week was nowhere close to the worst week in Labour's history. This week has surpassed it in so many ways. To incompetence has been added a suite of new qualities.

Not just evasion but deception. Not mere stupidity but malice. Not only misjudgement but the celebration of mass murderers. Labour's performance this week has been so grotesque that each day has been more damaging than the whole of last week. Not just that – there has been a crescendo of craziness. Every day has been twice as bad as the day before – it has been a true tour de force. In one way, all one can do is rise to one's feet shouting "Bravo! Author, Author!"

oxfordsimon said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Kerry McCarthy is talking about today's top issue

@KerryMP: Shouldn't say fishermen but "fishers" sounds wrong as a gender neutral alternative?

All she needs do is ask the women who work in the fishing industry what they would like to be called. It is their opinions that matter, not hers.

Fishwives?

Doesn't seem the media are very interested in the Times revelations about McMao. Imagine if a major politician was have found to have stood up and espoused support for ISIS....

JosiasJessop said:

MaxPB said:

Pulpstar said:

Erdogan's priority is keeping the Kurds in check. Neither the Kurds nor Turkey pose an existential threat to the UK, that is a dispute (Unlike Daesh) where diplomacy really must be the correct course.

Keeping Turkey in the NATO tent is probably correct too, but making it very clear to them that it is a DEFENCE, not an adventurism alliance.

If Erdogan keeps funding al-Nusra and his pet Turkmen then how is it possible for us to keep Turkey in NATO? They are funding jihadists who want to destroy us and our way of life. If Turkey cuts off the funding and stops allowing ISIS oil to be sold under the radar in their markets then sure, keep them in NATO, but right now they are absolutely working against the interests of the majority of NATO nations and trying to drag us into a conflict with Russia who have been bombing al-Nusra and the TIP both of which have been armed and funded by Erdogan.

Time for your tinfoil hat.

Time for you to get real about Turkey's despicable role in this. Your blind defence of Turkey is just become sad and desperate. Erdogan has turned a secular and relatively peaceful nation into one that supports and exports terror. It is a sad decline, one which you must come to terms with.

UK prisons to crack down on inmate internet and mobile phone use

https://thestack.com/security/2015/11/26/uk-prisons-to-crack-down-on-inmate-internet-and-mobile-phone-use/

Tissue_Price said:

dr_spyn said:

One out all out.

https://sports.ladbrokes.com/en-gb/betting/politics/british/specials/labour-party-specials/221304100/

Who is off first?

Interesting market from shadsy. No bet here, but if pushed Lucy Powell @ 10/1 makes some appeal.

Benn looks way too short at 2-1 for sure, already said he won't resign.

flightpath01 said:

watford30 said:

Roger said:

Watford

"Salmond is probably one of those strange and vain creatures with a mirror on the ceiling above his bed."

Obviously owned my flat on Old Compton St before me. It had a mirror on the ceiling and a hole in the floor revealing the well known peep show "Pussy Galore". Needless to say not being a Lib Dem I got the builders in PDQ

A friend of mine made a similar discovery in his flat. Removed a mirror mounted on hinges in one bathroom, to discover a window with a view of his other bathroom next door, through a 2 way mirror. The suspicion is that it may been installed for the purposes of blackmail by previous owners.

Are we really to believe this? '2 way mirrors' -- which rely in specific lighting conditions I believe? - and in steamed up bathrooms?
And then you sell up and leave them there??

A friend of mine was looking into the toilet in his flat. He noticed a chink of light in the U bend. On closer inspection and by removing the bowl, he discovered a small periscope and evidence of scuba diving gear in the soil pipe.

Is that BBC picture the worst 'collar' for Corbyn yet?

Alistair said:

I seem to have lost the link to a story about Assad being a purchaser of ISIS oil through a russian intermediary

Edit: found it http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-says-syria-is-buying-oil-from-islamic-state-1448471418

Yes. If there is money to be made from the war (or a need for goods), some people will do so, whoever they have to deal with.

The one thing people are missing in all this is like many civil wars, there are many groups, including small ones, fighting. Some form up into firm alliances, but still keep overall control of their fighters. Other form into loose alliances, fight a joint enemy, and then a few months later that loose alliance will be broken and they're fighting each other.

IS, the Kurds and the regime are the three main groups, although in some cases other groups have joined and left these, and fighters apparently frequently move between al Nusra and IS.

It's one reason I don't hold out much hope for peace talks (though I hope I'm wrong) - as well as IS's aims being counter to civilisation's, there are too many other groups who would have top be persuaded to lay down arms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-rebel_conflict_during_the_Syrian_Civil_War

Pulpstar said:

Tissue_Price said:

dr_spyn said:

One out all out.

https://sports.ladbrokes.com/en-gb/betting/politics/british/specials/labour-party-specials/221304100/

Who is off first?

Interesting market from shadsy. No bet here, but if pushed Lucy Powell @ 10/1 makes some appeal.

Benn looks way too short at 2-1 for sure, already said he won't resign.

Saying you won't resign doesn't actually mean you won't.

Having said that, many on that list will probably cling on to the greasy pole for as long as they possibly can.

Particularly Bryant.

tyson said:

But JackW- our enemy, ISIS, do not want us to do nothing. Why do they commit these atrocities? They want us to do something, they really want Kafir countries to bomb them. Bombing them fuels their JIHAD, drives up recruitment and funds, and spreads this damned horrible ideology better than any other strategy they could use. Bombing them, or better even still invading them, is what they want.

JackW said:

tyson said:

Corbyn's spot on in Syria. Between the Turks, the Russians, Assad, Assad militia, Assad's regular army, Iran, Hezbollah, Islamist Anti Assad freedom fighters, the Kurds, Americans and French and of course Isis- all warring factions and driving the country into utter devastation, I don't quite understand what contribution the use of our six bombers would add to this carnage.

After our input into Libya which resulted in a failed state at Europe's door, a flood of weapons into Africa feeding Boko Haram, illegal poaching and crime, aswell as the creation of a migrant corridor into Italy, Cameron's hardly got a reliable reputation in his foreign policy endeavours.

Roger said:

Having spent his whole political life doing his own thing in his 67th year he's not going to change. He doesn't have a clue what being a party leader is all about.

Whether Corbyn goes or the party disintegrates is the question. I'd say it's too close to call. It's a pity because in this instance I prefer his solution to those who want to bomb without a plan that makes sense

There are no easy or risk free options here.

Either the UK contributes militarily to the efforts to defeat ISIS in Syria or we rely on others to take the full burden whilst our citizens are beheaded in the middle east or murdered in overseas tourist attractions like Tunisia and potentially face a Paris like outrage in the UK.

In my view the do nothing situation in Syria is the worst of several extremely unenviable prospects.

It's a possiblity, but just because an opponent wants something doesn't necessarily mean giving it to them will achieve the result they think it will, and given the breadth of their reach and influence already, the legitimacy their present situation affords them, confronting them may, on balance, be worth the risk. Doing nothing doesn't prevent the spread of their ideology it would seen, they can just go back to historical crimes of ours. They still call us crusaders for christ's sake.

I'm still not sold on how the UK contributing will actuall help in a substantive way, but I'm much more sanguine about the possibility now.

Tissue_Price said:

Was Cameron's analogy a coded message?

https://twitter.com/majorsrise/status/670162664719450112

I am going to be lost when @majorsrise finishes.

dr_spyn said:

oxfordsimon said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Kerry McCarthy is talking about today's top issue

@KerryMP: Shouldn't say fishermen but "fishers" sounds wrong as a gender neutral alternative?

All she needs do is ask the women who work in the fishing industry what they would like to be called. It is their opinions that matter, not hers.

Fishwives?

Kudos!

MaxPB said:

JosiasJessop said:

MaxPB said:

Pulpstar said:

Erdogan's priority is keeping the Kurds in check. Neither the Kurds nor Turkey pose an existential threat to the UK, that is a dispute (Unlike Daesh) where diplomacy really must be the correct course.

Keeping Turkey in the NATO tent is probably correct too, but making it very clear to them that it is a DEFENCE, not an adventurism alliance.

If Erdogan keeps funding al-Nusra and his pet Turkmen then how is it possible for us to keep Turkey in NATO? They are funding jihadists who want to destroy us and our way of life. If Turkey cuts off the funding and stops allowing ISIS oil to be sold under the radar in their markets then sure, keep them in NATO, but right now they are absolutely working against the interests of the majority of NATO nations and trying to drag us into a conflict with Russia who have been bombing al-Nusra and the TIP both of which have been armed and funded by Erdogan.

Time for your tinfoil hat.

Time for you to get real about Turkey's despicable role in this. Your blind defence of Turkey is just become sad and desperate. Erdogan has turned a secular and relatively peaceful nation into one that supports and exports terror. It is a sad decline, one which you must come to terms with.

I'm not blindly defending Turkey. You seem not to have noticed me criticise them many times in the past, and I've repeatedly said he's taking the country in the wrong direction. Anyone that tries to control the media as he is should not be in charge of a country. And yes, that goes for Assad and Putin too.

It's just that I don't agree with your apparent blind hatred of it, which has virtually no basis in fact or knowledge.

You are starting from a stated position where you believe that Erdogan wants a new Ottoman Empire. As much as I may dislike the man, that's rubbish, as I've shown in the past. You are willing to pick up on anything that confirms that world view, hence your mistake earlier.

A hypothetical:

What happens if neither the "moderate" opposition, nor the Assad regime actually WANT to control Raqqa any more as they deem it to be far more use of resource than its worth.

Just a thought, but Syria may actually be worse than I'd previously considered.

Alistair said:

Bombing alone cannot take territory from ISIS,you need bots on the ground.

BOTs on the ground you say, are you privy to information about the American military that we aren't? ;-)

Pulpstar said:

A hypothetical:

What happens if neither the "moderate" opposition, nor the Assad regime actually WANT to control Raqqa any more as they deem it to be far more use of resource than its worth.

Just a thought, but Syria may actually be worse than I'd previously considered.

Assad doesn't have the strength to take it, even if he wanted. As Yokel's pointed out in the past, he's desperately short of men, and the Iranian and Hezbollah units are helping secure the territory he has.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Alistair said:

Bombing alone cannot take territory from ISIS,you need bots on the ground.

BOTs on the ground you say, are you privy to information about the American military that we aren't? ;-)

I spotted the typo before I posted but left it in for the connoisseurs of sci-fi.

Sadly/fortunately the current state of ground based military robots is hilariously rubbish.

@johnmcdonnellMP: On Syria, can everyone calm down.We're all simply working through the issues & coming to final decision.Don't mistake democracy for division

Is John McDonnell for real?

Alistair said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Alistair said:

Bombing alone cannot take territory from ISIS,you need bots on the ground.

BOTs on the ground you say, are you privy to information about the American military that we aren't? ;-)

I spotted the typo before I posted but left it in for the connoisseurs of sci-fi.

Sadly/fortunately the current state of ground based military robots is hilariously rubbish.

I wonder how much money has been pumped into trying to make them work - military people like cool things just like the rest of us I imagine, and the appeal of ground based robots is alluring, no doubt.

MaxPB said:

Pulpstar said:

Erdogan's priority is keeping the Kurds in check. Neither the Kurds nor Turkey pose an existential threat to the UK, that is a dispute (Unlike Daesh) where diplomacy really must be the correct course.

Keeping Turkey in the NATO tent is probably correct too, but making it very clear to them that it is a DEFENCE, not an adventurism alliance.

If Erdogan keeps funding al-Nusra and his pet Turkmen then how is it possible for us to keep Turkey in NATO? They are funding jihadists who want to destroy us and our way of life. If Turkey cuts off the funding and stops allowing ISIS oil to be sold under the radar in their markets then sure, keep them in NATO, but right now they are absolutely working against the interests of the majority of NATO nations and trying to drag us into a conflict with Russia who have been bombing al-Nusra and the TIP both of which have been armed and funded by Erdogan.

The whole of NATO is supporting Al Nusra, do try to keep up.

ToryJim said:

@johnmcdonnellMP: On Syria, can everyone calm down.We're all simply working through the issues & coming to final decision.Don't mistake democracy for division

Is John McDonnell for real?

He really is an apologist for some of the worst terrorists and mass murderers in history. So yes, he is sadly for real.

Deluded and dangerous - but he does appear to actually believe the bile that he spouts.

Another Oldham option at Ladbrokes:

Oldham West & Royton by-election

Majority betting

11/8 Lab Majority Over 2000
7/4 Lab Majority Under 2000
11/4 UKIP Majority Under 2000
10/1 UKIP Majority Over 2000

http://www.thenational.scot/politics/poll-over-half-of-scots-expect-independence-in-next-ten-years

MOST Scots believe the country will be independent by 2025, according to a new poll.

The Ipsos MORI survey found that 54 per cent of those questioned think it is likely that Scotland will become independent within 10 years, with 44 per cent thinking it unlikely. Two per cent said they did now know.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Tyson, Daesh want to spread the idea of Islam versus The Rest.

However, if Daesh lose their land, that is the worst thing that could happen for them because they become losers, and therefore less attractive to maniacs.

They would also lose a very significant source of funding.

Plato_Says said:

When I lived in Croydon, we unscrewed a large mirror and a bunch of extremist leaflets fell to the floor. All in Arabic and bloodthirsty drawings. This was on 1986.

The previous tenants were unremarkable apparently...

Jonathan said:

flightpath01 said:

watford30 said:

Roger said:

Watford

"Salmond is probably one of those strange and vain creatures with a mirror on the ceiling above his bed."

Obviously owned my flat on Old Compton St before me. It had a mirror on the ceiling and a hole in the floor revealing the well known peep show "Pussy Galore". Needless to say not being a Lib Dem I got the builders in PDQ

A friend of mine made a similar discovery in his flat. Removed a mirror mounted on hinges in one bathroom, to discover a window with a view of his other bathroom next door, through a 2 way mirror. The suspicion is that it may been installed for the purposes of blackmail by previous owners.

Are we really to believe this? '2 way mirrors' -- which rely in specific lighting conditions I believe? - and in steamed up bathrooms?
And then you sell up and leave them there??

A friend of mine was looking into the toilet in his flat. He noticed a chink of light in the U bend. On closer inspection and by removing the bowl, he discovered a small periscope and evidence of scuba diving gear in the soil pipe.

I found a couple of old Fiestas and Razzle magazines stuffed behind the hot water tank once, I think they were my elder brother's, though!

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Jim, are you suggesting he just failed the Turing Test?

Haha Mr Dancer