politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Harry Hayfield’s Local By-Election Preview with 2 LAB defen
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Harry Hayfield’s Local By-Election Preview with 2 LAB defences, a Plaid one and an Indy one
Ogmore Vale on Bridgend (Ind defence)
Result of council at last election (2012): Labour 39, Independents 10, Liberal Democrats 3, Conservatives 1, Plaid Cymru 1 (Labour majority of 24)
Result of ward at last election (2012): Independent 505 (55%), Labour 414 (45%)
Candidates duly nominated: Dhanisha Patel (Lab), Sally Hyde (UKIP), Ralph Shepherd (Ind), Tim Thomas (Plaid), Jamie Wallis (Con)
Comments
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FPT
bigjohnowls said:
» show previous quotes
And ruining the NHS
On almost every measure, the NHS in England is in a worse position than this time last year.
And as we enter winter, that spells bad news: last year's was the worst for a generation with A&E waits hitting their highest levels since targets were introduced in 2004.
But the pressures are now spreading more to other parts of the system. Once in hospital, doctors are finding it difficult to discharge patients because the support services in the community needed for the most vulnerable are not available.
Waits for diagnostic tests are lengthening and the key cancer target has been missed for well over a year.
Even on routine treatment - hips and knees - the signs are not good. The target is being met, but on the current trajectory it will be missed by the end of the year. The weather may be mild, but winter has come early for the NHS.
I said:
So it is confirmed. Labour is indeed the Starks. And we all know what happens to them.0 -
Talking of which 2 quite tricky looking defences for Labour tonight. Be interesting to see how they get on.0
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Anyone there?0
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I was there. But now I'm here, wherever this is.DavidL said:Anyone there?
Edit. And as ever, thanks Harry.0 -
The Dorset by-election is an intriguing one.0
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Will the EU collapse soon due to its inherent anomalies and contradictions; or will it need a vital push from the Leavers/Outers in the UK referendum to see it tumble into oblivion?0
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The EU will survive the UK leaving. Even if Greece collapses again and the migrant crisis worsens, it will continue in one form or another.MikeK said:Will the EU collapse soon due to its inherent anomalies and contradictions; or will it need a vital push from the Leavers/Outers in the UK referendum to see it tumble into oblivion?
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"worked in his office" ay! eye eye gnarffbigjohnowls said:Simon Danczuk paid his now estranged wife 621 hours overtime while she worked in his office from 2010 to 2015 - the most any MP claimed for a partner!!
Finbarr lucky man Saunders
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I think the only safe prediction for that one is that the LibDems won't win. Can't be too many 4 way marginal wards in England.chestnut said:The Dorset by-election is an intriguing one.
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FPT:
Yep - the Lords numbers have been going all in the Con direction in recent weeks - until the Lord Stewartby retirement today which is a setback - he has been a reliable vote in recent divisions.RobD said:
Let's hope the Tory peers are whipped mercilessly.MikeL said:Two key votes next week on votes at 16.
Tuesday: Commons: Vote to overturn Lords amendment giving vote at 16 for Local Elections
Wednesday: Lords: Vote on amendment to give vote at 16 for EU referendum
Will be very interesting to watch the Lords turnout again - will it be very high again as it was for Tax Credits and IVR. It was far lower when they passed the amendment re vote at 16 for Local Elections.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/business-papers/lords/lords-divisions/?date=2015-Oct-26&itemId=1&session=2015-May-18
Incidentally re the 45 Peers announced by Cameron in the Dissolution honours list (C - 26, L - 8, LD - 11) - the number introduced so far and thus eligible to vote as of today now stands by my count at C - 18, L - 1, LD - 5.
So Con getting a short term boost by getting their Peers introduced first. Impossible to tell but the vote on Wed could easily be on an absolute knife edge. I think the Govt must be favourite to lose but I said that on IVR which they somehow pulled out of the bag - so who knows!0 -
Anyone got a chart of the ages of those with life peerages by party? Given that I imagine no LD peers will be appointed in the foreseeable future, it is merely a matter of attrition.MikeL said:FPT:
Yep - the Lords numbers have been going all in the Con direction in recent weeks - until the Lord Stewartby retirement today which is a setback - he has been a reliable vote in recent divisions.RobD said:
Let's hope the Tory peers are whipped mercilessly.MikeL said:Two key votes next week on votes at 16.
Tuesday: Commons: Vote to overturn Lords amendment giving vote at 16 for Local Elections
Wednesday: Lords: Vote on amendment to give vote at 16 for EU referendum
Will be very interesting to watch the Lords turnout again - will it be very high again as it was for Tax Credits and IVR. It was far lower when they passed the amendment re vote at 16 for Local Elections.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/business-papers/lords/lords-divisions/?date=2015-Oct-26&itemId=1&session=2015-May-18
Incidentally re the 45 Peers announced by Cameron in the Dissolution honours list (C - 26, L - 8, LD - 11) - the number introduced so far and thus eligible to vote as of today now stands by my count at C - 18, L - 1, LD - 5.
So Con getting a short term boost by getting their Peers introduced first. Impossible to tell but the vote on Wed could easily be on an absolute knife edge. I think the Govt must be favourite to lose but I said that on IVR which they somehow pulled out of the bag - so who knows!
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What vote on Wednesday? Your updates on the HoL are very interesting.MikeL said:So Con getting a short term boost by getting their Peers introduced first. Impossible to tell but the vote on Wed could easily be on an absolute knife edge. I think the Govt must be favourite to lose but I said that on IVR which they somehow pulled out of the bag - so who knows!
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The vote to extend the franchise in the EU referendum to children.tlg86 said:
What vote on Wednesday? Your updates on the HoL are very interesting.MikeL said:So Con getting a short term boost by getting their Peers introduced first. Impossible to tell but the vote on Wed could easily be on an absolute knife edge. I think the Govt must be favourite to lose but I said that on IVR which they somehow pulled out of the bag - so who knows!
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Teesside is falling to pieces.0
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RobD FPT
I assume that since the Malta deal didn't go through we didn't have to stump up.0 -
Good to know, thanks.Richard_Tyndall said:RobD FPT
I assume that since the Malta deal didn't go through we didn't have to stump up.0 -
Literally a Marxist dialectical-materialist view of history.MikeK said:Will the EU collapse soon due to its inherent anomalies and contradictions; or will it need a vital push from the Leavers/Outers in the UK referendum to see it tumble into oblivion?
Between this common tone of anti-EU chat and the terror of TTIP, I wonder who really believes that Britain hors EU would be a free-trading restoration of Victoriana?0 -
Ah, thanks. It's one thing for the Lords to vote against something that the Government hadn't promised in its manifesto, it's quite another for them to change something that was in their manifesto.RobD said:
The vote to extend the franchise in the EU referendum to children.tlg86 said:
What vote on Wednesday? Your updates on the HoL are very interesting.MikeL said:So Con getting a short term boost by getting their Peers introduced first. Impossible to tell but the vote on Wed could easily be on an absolute knife edge. I think the Govt must be favourite to lose but I said that on IVR which they somehow pulled out of the bag - so who knows!
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Freggles.. how can you tell ..it was always a crapheap..0
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ITV News @itvnews 12h12 hours ago
David Cameron wrote to his local council complaining about cuts to frontline services http://www.itv.com/news/2015-11-12/david-cameron-writes-to-his-local-council-criticising-significant-cuts-to-frontline-services/ …
What next complaining to the NHS that waiting lists are growing0 -
Well in 2010 Gordon Brown said that the NHS now had enough money to run properly and could even undertake a 20 billion programme of efficiency savings. Since then the NHS budget has increased by 17 billion.bigjohnowls said:ITV News @itvnews 12h12 hours ago
David Cameron wrote to his local council complaining about cuts to frontline services http://www.itv.com/news/2015-11-12/david-cameron-writes-to-his-local-council-criticising-significant-cuts-to-frontline-services/ …
What next complaining to the NHS that waiting lists are growing0 -
Last time I checked, Brown was a Tory, so your point is invalid.flightpath01 said:
Well in 2010 Gordon Brown said that the NHS now had enough money to run properly and could even undertake a 20 billion programme of efficiency savings. Since then the NHS budget has increased by 17 billion.bigjohnowls said:ITV News @itvnews 12h12 hours ago
David Cameron wrote to his local council complaining about cuts to frontline services http://www.itv.com/news/2015-11-12/david-cameron-writes-to-his-local-council-criticising-significant-cuts-to-frontline-services/ …
What next complaining to the NHS that waiting lists are growing 0 -
*cough*Scotland*cough*
@thespainreport: LATEST: Fitch Downgrades Catalonia To Junk Bond Status Because Of Separatist Declaration
https://t.co/yIS5y96Tph0 -
You are feeling your inner Corbynista I see... ;-)RobD said:
Last time I checked, Brown was a Tory, so your point is invalid.flightpath01 said:
Well in 2010 Gordon Brown said that the NHS now had enough money to run properly and could even undertake a 20 billion programme of efficiency savings. Since then the NHS budget has increased by 17 billion.bigjohnowls said:ITV News @itvnews 12h12 hours ago
David Cameron wrote to his local council complaining about cuts to frontline services http://www.itv.com/news/2015-11-12/david-cameron-writes-to-his-local-council-criticising-significant-cuts-to-frontline-services/ …
What next complaining to the NHS that waiting lists are growing0 -
We are all Tories now, comrade!RobD said:
Last time I checked, Brown was a Tory, so your point is invalid.flightpath01 said:
Well in 2010 Gordon Brown said that the NHS now had enough money to run properly and could even undertake a 20 billion programme of efficiency savings. Since then the NHS budget has increased by 17 billion.bigjohnowls said:ITV News @itvnews 12h12 hours ago
David Cameron wrote to his local council complaining about cuts to frontline services http://www.itv.com/news/2015-11-12/david-cameron-writes-to-his-local-council-criticising-significant-cuts-to-frontline-services/ …
What next complaining to the NHS that waiting lists are growing0 -
I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.0
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@C_KAndrews: Got hold of @UNISONPSS submission to @hmics control room report. M9 tragedy was isolated incident? Think again. Excl in tmrw's @thecourieruk0
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There are other examples of people abandoned? If so that's an utter travesty.Scott_P said:@C_KAndrews: Got hold of @UNISONPSS submission to @hmics control room report. M9 tragedy was isolated incident? Think again. Excl in tmrw's @thecourieruk
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I don't imagine they have much time for sunning themselves.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
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Guido has got the dirt on Seumas Milne:
The only comment we can get from from the Labour Party’ press office – which Seumas now controls – is a response to a question we did not ask:
http://order-order.com/2015/11/12/seumas-milne-bragged-about-going-to-a-pflp-camp-in-his-gap-year/
“The allegation that Seumas attended a terrorist training camp is entirely false.”0 -
Sorry - don't have ages. But, see link:RobD said:
Anyone got a chart of the ages of those with life peerages by party? Given that I imagine no LD peers will be appointed in the foreseeable future, it is merely a matter of attrition.MikeL said:FPT:
Yep - the Lords numbers have been going all in the Con direction in recent weeks - until the Lord Stewartby retirement today which is a setback - he has been a reliable vote in recent divisions.RobD said:
Let's hope the Tory peers are whipped mercilessly.MikeL said:Two key votes next week on votes at 16.
Tuesday: Commons: Vote to overturn Lords amendment giving vote at 16 for Local Elections
Wednesday: Lords: Vote on amendment to give vote at 16 for EU referendum
Will be very interesting to watch the Lords turnout again - will it be very high again as it was for Tax Credits and IVR. It was far lower when they passed the amendment re vote at 16 for Local Elections.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/business-papers/lords/lords-divisions/?date=2015-Oct-26&itemId=1&session=2015-May-18
Incidentally re the 45 Peers announced by Cameron in the Dissolution honours list (C - 26, L - 8, LD - 11) - the number introduced so far and thus eligible to vote as of today now stands by my count at C - 18, L - 1, LD - 5.
So Con getting a short term boost by getting their Peers introduced first. Impossible to tell but the vote on Wed could easily be on an absolute knife edge. I think the Govt must be favourite to lose but I said that on IVR which they somehow pulled out of the bag - so who knows!
http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/lords/composition-of-the-lords/
First remember all hereditaries get replaced by same Party so no attrition there.
Now, I've done a quick count of Life Peers appointed since May 2010 - these are, APPROX:
Con - 105, Lab - 53, LD - 51
Now, one would assume these people are very unlikely to retire / die soon - obviously a few might, but not many.
So this means that the pool of Life Peers appointed pre May 2010 is as follows:
Con - 97, Lab - 155, LD - 57
So one would expect that Lab + LD together (which is what matters as they are voting together) should suffer quite a bit more attrition than Con.
Only caveat is that I suspect there are a higher proportion of Con Peers dating back pre 1997 and these will be the most likely to die / retire. But that should be a fairly small part of the total.0 -
I had missed the fact, by the way, that Merkel has called for the reintroduction of the Dublin accords. So now that she has encouraged hundreds of thousands of migrants to come to Europe with the promise they will be welcome in Germany she is saying they should be sent back to the EU countries they pass through to get to Germany.
It is no wonder the Hungarians are so pissed off.0 -
So all is wellflightpath01 said:
Well in 2010 Gordon Brown said that the NHS now had enough money to run properly and could even undertake a 20 billion programme of efficiency savings. Since then the NHS budget has increased by 17 billion.bigjohnowls said:ITV News @itvnews 12h12 hours ago
David Cameron wrote to his local council complaining about cuts to frontline services http://www.itv.com/news/2015-11-12/david-cameron-writes-to-his-local-council-criticising-significant-cuts-to-frontline-services/ …
What next complaining to the NHS that waiting lists are growing
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Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!0 -
One of the things I've been interested in doing (thinking about this makes me realise what a boring life I lead), is to plot party allegiance in the house going back several decades. Unfortunately, I don't think there is any resource from the information can be accessed easily.MikeL said:
Sorry - don't have ages. But, see link:RobD said:
Anyone got a chart of the ages of those with life peerages by party? Given that I imagine no LD peers will be appointed in the foreseeable future, it is merely a matter of attrition.MikeL said:FPT:
Yep - the Lords numbers have been going all in the Con direction in recent weeks - until the Lord Stewartby retirement today which is a setback - he has been a reliable vote in recent divisions.RobD said:
Let's hope the Tory peers are whipped mercilessly.MikeL said:Two key votes next week on votes at 16.
Tuesday: Commons: Vote to overturn Lords amendment giving vote at 16 for Local Elections
Wednesday: Lords: Vote on amendment to give vote at 16 for EU referendum
Will be very interesting to watch the Lords turnout again - will it be very high again as it was for Tax Credits and IVR. It was far lower when they passed the amendment re vote at 16 for Local Elections.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/business-papers/lords/lords-divisions/?date=2015-Oct-26&itemId=1&session=2015-May-18
Incidentally re the 45 Peers announced by Cameron in the Dissolution honours list (C - 26, L - 8, LD - 11) - the number introduced so far and thus eligible to vote as of today now stands by my count at C - 18, L - 1, LD - 5.
So Con getting a short term boost by getting their Peers introduced first. Impossible to tell but the vote on Wed could easily be on an absolute knife edge. I think the Govt must be favourite to lose but I said that on IVR which they somehow pulled out of the bag - so who knows!
http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/lords/composition-of-the-lords/
First remember all hereditaries get replaced by same Party so no attrition there.
Now, I've done a quick count of Life Peers appointed since May 2010 - these are, APPROX:
Con - 105, Lab - 53, LD - 51
Now, one would assume these people are very unlikely to retire / die soon - obviously a few might, but not many.
So this means that the pool of Life Peers appointed pre May 2010 is as follows:
Con - 97, Lab - 155, LD - 57
So one would expect that Lab + LD together (which is what matters as they are voting together) should suffer quite a bit more attrition than Con.
Only caveat is that I suspect there are a higher proportion of Con Peers dating back pre 1997 and these will be the most likely to die / retire. But that should be a fairly small part of the total.0 -
Awesome. What are the bonds yielding now though ?Scott_P said:*cough*Scotland*cough*
@thespainreport: LATEST: Fitch Downgrades Catalonia To Junk Bond Status Because Of Separatist Declaration
https://t.co/yIS5y96Tph0 -
MP_SE said:
I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
These creeps are tempted to loiter and prevaricate in salubrious surroundings, they'd be brisker in their decision making if they held their summits in some of the numeous hell-holes available in modern Europe.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!0 -
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.0 -
Kettering?MonikerDiCanio said:MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
These creeps are tempted to loiter and prevaricate in salubrious surroundings, they'd be brisker in their decision making if they held their summits in some of the numeous hell-holes available in modern Europe.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!0 -
Presumably the other countries could retort by saying that since those migrants are already in a safe country (Germany) they have no need to leave it to come to their countries to claim asylum.Richard_Tyndall said:I had missed the fact, by the way, that Merkel has called for the reintroduction of the Dublin accords. So now that she has encouraged hundreds of thousands of migrants to come to Europe with the promise they will be welcome in Germany she is saying they should be sent back to the EU countries they pass through to get to Germany.
It is no wonder the Hungarians are so pissed off.
Merkel has behaved very stupidly. She may be supported by Germans but if she wanted to make this a European remedy then she ought to have consulted other European states first before opening her mouth. It serves her right if now they tell her to get stuffed.
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Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.0 -
The govt have funded the NHS in line with labour plans and then some, and have pledged a further 8 billion to the end of this parliament over and above what it promised in the election. In the face of this spending on top of what labour said was adequate funding then you explain the waiting times... assuming that is they are valid. I am regularly taking my family members to hospital appointments which do not seem particularly untimely; I appreciate how hard the NHS is working.bigjohnowls said:
So all is wellflightpath01 said:
Well in 2010 Gordon Brown said that the NHS now had enough money to run properly and could even undertake a 20 billion programme of efficiency savings. Since then the NHS budget has increased by 17 billion.bigjohnowls said:ITV News @itvnews 12h12 hours ago
David Cameron wrote to his local council complaining about cuts to frontline services http://www.itv.com/news/2015-11-12/david-cameron-writes-to-his-local-council-criticising-significant-cuts-to-frontline-services/ …
What next complaining to the NHS that waiting lists are growing
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http://order-order.com/2015/11/12/seumas-milne-bragged-about-going-to-a-pflp-camp-in-his-gap-year/MP_SE said:Guido has got the dirt on Seumas Milne:
The only comment we can get from from the Labour Party’ press office – which Seumas now controls – is a response to a question we did not ask:
“The allegation that Seumas attended a terrorist training camp is entirely false.”
That might not have been the question but it does seem to be the allegation.0 -
Faster deportations of economic migrants would be a start. Word would quickly filter back to places such as the Western Balkans and the numbers would start to fall.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!0 -
So all is well
at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.
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A cold room with leaky pipes and hard wooden chairs tends to speed up decision making.MonikerDiCanio said:MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
These creeps are tempted to loiter and prevaricate in salubrious surroundings, they'd be brisker in their decision making if they held their summits in some of the numeous hell-holes available in modern Europe.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!0 -
This will help to some degree!RobD said:One of the things I've been interested in doing (thinking about this makes me realise what a boring life I lead), is to plot party allegiance in the house going back several decades. Unfortunately, I don't think there is any resource from the information can be accessed easily.
The link below has the figures for the last 15 years - see page 12 - which is 16/69.
The numbers are for January each year - so you can see how much the numbers have changed just this year - comparing now to January 2015.
One thing that needs pointing out is there is a complete misconception that the number of Peers is growing rapidly - whereas in fact it isn't!
Today there are 820 - including the 45 announced a few weeks ago in the Dissolution Honours list. In January 2012 (see link), there were 787. So the number of Peers is up just 33 in almost four years!
What is happening is that there is a lot of turnover - there are a lot of appointments but lots are retiring and dying (and some are taking leave of absence).
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit/research/parliament/house-of-lords/enoughisenough/Enough_is_enough_-_regulating_prime_ministerial_appointments_to_the_Lords.pdf0 -
I think Merkel will go down in history as one of the worst Western leaders of the earliest 21st Century.Cyclefree said:
Presumably the other countries could retort by saying that since those migrants are already in a safe country (Germany) they have no need to leave it to come to their countries to claim asylum.Richard_Tyndall said:I had missed the fact, by the way, that Merkel has called for the reintroduction of the Dublin accords. So now that she has encouraged hundreds of thousands of migrants to come to Europe with the promise they will be welcome in Germany she is saying they should be sent back to the EU countries they pass through to get to Germany.
It is no wonder the Hungarians are so pissed off.
Merkel has behaved very stupidly. She may be supported by Germans but if she wanted to make this a European remedy then she ought to have consulted other European states first before opening her mouth. It serves her right if now they tell her to get stuffed.0 -
Fpt:
Running (built up to over time) is an excellent treatment for many people with back pain:RobD said:
Lol okay. If any medical expert is in a position to chime in, would be most grateful.bigjohnowls said:
PB Tories defending Danczuk answers mine though.RobD said:
Because you can lie down. That didn't answer my question either.bigjohnowls said:
OK in business class seats and running 10k though apparently.RobD said:
I'm not a doctor (well, not that kind), but is it possible to have a condition that is aggravated by sitting for prolonged periods, but not by running?bigjohnowls said:Simon Danczuk @SimonDanczuk Nov 11
Went for a run this morning
Back clearly better now China economy class trip cancelled
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Backpain/Pages/Backexercises.aspx
The principle is to build up core muscle strength, though losing weight is an additional plus.0 -
Thought as muchfoxinsoxuk said:Fpt:
Running (built up to over time) is an excellent treatment for many people with back pain:RobD said:
Lol okay. If any medical expert is in a position to chime in, would be most grateful.bigjohnowls said:
PB Tories defending Danczuk answers mine though.RobD said:
Because you can lie down. That didn't answer my question either.bigjohnowls said:
OK in business class seats and running 10k though apparently.RobD said:
I'm not a doctor (well, not that kind), but is it possible to have a condition that is aggravated by sitting for prolonged periods, but not by running?bigjohnowls said:Simon Danczuk @SimonDanczuk Nov 11
Went for a run this morning
Back clearly better now China economy class trip cancelled
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Backpain/Pages/Backexercises.aspx
The principle is to build up core muscle strength, though losing weight is an additional plus.0 -
foxinsoxuk said:
Fpt:
Running (built up to over time) is an excellent treatment for many people with back pain:RobD said:
Lol okay. If any medical expert is in a position to chime in, would be most grateful.bigjohnowls said:
PB Tories defending Danczuk answers mine though.RobD said:
Because you can lie down. That didn't answer my question either.bigjohnowls said:
OK in business class seats and running 10k though apparently.RobD said:
I'm not a doctor (well, not that kind), but is it possible to have a condition that is aggravated by sitting for prolonged periods, but not by running?bigjohnowls said:Simon Danczuk @SimonDanczuk Nov 11
Went for a run this morning
Back clearly better now China economy class trip cancelled
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Backpain/Pages/Backexercises.aspx
The principle is to build up core muscle strength, though losing weight is an additional plus.
Gentle regular movement seems to work; don't stand, sit, or lie for too long.
Running may help the back, but not sure it's too good for other places (e.g. ankles, knees).
0 -
I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.0 -
Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.taffys said:So all is well
at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.
However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.
I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.0 -
I would suggest that if we had the will we could make them.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.0 -
Strap on parachutes and drop them in?Richard_Tyndall said:
I would suggest that if we had the will we could make them.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.0 -
Last year I did my lower back playing football... It was talking up to 10 mins to get out of my chair, but once I was up, running was no problemRobD said:
Thought as muchfoxinsoxuk said:Fpt:
Running (built up to over time) is an excellent treatment for many people with back pain:RobD said:
Lol okay. If any medical expert is in a position to chime in, would be most grateful.bigjohnowls said:
PB Tories defending Danczuk answers mine though.RobD said:
Because you can lie down. That didn't answer my question either.bigjohnowls said:
OK in business class seats and running 10k though apparently.RobD said:
I'm not a doctor (well, not that kind), but is it possible to have a condition that is aggravated by sitting for prolonged periods, but not by running?bigjohnowls said:Simon Danczuk @SimonDanczuk Nov 11
Went for a run this morning
Back clearly better now China economy class trip cancelled
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Backpain/Pages/Backexercises.aspx
The principle is to build up core muscle strength, though losing weight is an additional plus.0 -
While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.MP_SE said:
I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.0 -
Just think of how comfortable you'd have been on a 10 hour flight in businessisam said:
Last year I did my lower back playing football... It was talking up to 10 mins to get out of my chair, but once I was up, running was no problemRobD said:
Thought as muchfoxinsoxuk said:Fpt:
Running (built up to over time) is an excellent treatment for many people with back pain:RobD said:
Lol okay. If any medical expert is in a position to chime in, would be most grateful.bigjohnowls said:
PB Tories defending Danczuk answers mine though.RobD said:
Because you can lie down. That didn't answer my question either.bigjohnowls said:
OK in business class seats and running 10k though apparently.RobD said:
I'm not a doctor (well, not that kind), but is it possible to have a condition that is aggravated by sitting for prolonged periods, but not by running?bigjohnowls said:Simon Danczuk @SimonDanczuk Nov 11
Went for a run this morning
Back clearly better now China economy class trip cancelled
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Backpain/Pages/Backexercises.aspx
The principle is to build up core muscle strength, though losing weight is an additional plus.
0 -
I would imagine that we are already paying substantial sums by way of aid to at least some of these countries. Perhaps a reminder that there is nothing inevitable about such payments might be made.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
All this money is meant to be making their countries better and buying us influence. So let's bloody well use it.
And if that influence turns out to be so much hot air, well let's stop paying the money and use it instead to make shelter on one of the many relatively uninhabited islands in the Atlantic belonging to various EU countries and put the migrants there until (a) either they return to their home countries; or (b) they find an alternative country to welcome them, which may of course include those European countries who choose to have them rather than those forced to have them.0 -
But a terrible one if they also have knee problems.foxinsoxuk said:Fpt:
Running (built up to over time) is an excellent treatment for many people with back pain:RobD said:
Lol okay. If any medical expert is in a position to chime in, would be most grateful.bigjohnowls said:
PB Tories defending Danczuk answers mine though.RobD said:
Because you can lie down. That didn't answer my question either.bigjohnowls said:
OK in business class seats and running 10k though apparently.RobD said:
I'm not a doctor (well, not that kind), but is it possible to have a condition that is aggravated by sitting for prolonged periods, but not by running?bigjohnowls said:Simon Danczuk @SimonDanczuk Nov 11
Went for a run this morning
Back clearly better now China economy class trip cancelled
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Backpain/Pages/Backexercises.aspx
The principle is to build up core muscle strength, though losing weight is an additional plus.0 -
Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.bigjohnowls said:
Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.taffys said:So all is well
at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.
However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.
I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.
I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.0 -
Really? We are not paying for any aid to any of those countries. Is that really the case? No-one in Europe has any leverage with any of these countries, despite some of them being ex-colonies? Amazing. Where the hell is the aid budget being spent then?foxinsoxuk said:
While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.MP_SE said:
I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.0 -
Indeed, for anyone to have influence with a State, there has to be a state.foxinsoxuk said:
While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.MP_SE said:
I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.0 -
If there is no state, who is doing the refusing then?MTimT said:
Indeed, for anyone to have influence with a State, there has to be a state.foxinsoxuk said:
While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.MP_SE said:
I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.0 -
Methinks that the BMA wanted to provoke a strike by refusing to negotiate.foxinsoxuk said:
Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.bigjohnowls said:
Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.taffys said:So all is well
at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.
However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.
I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.
I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
0 -
Has any government anywhere successfully deported to these places? I remember a year or so we deported the Libyan army who were training in Cambridge, following sex attacks.Cyclefree said:
If there is no state, who is doing the refusing then?MTimT said:
Indeed, for anyone to have influence with a State, there has to be a state.foxinsoxuk said:
While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.MP_SE said:
I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
I think only a very brutal approach could reverse the flow. Life is pretty awful in most of these places.
The measures required are not going to be possible in any democratic society.0 -
Well the current policy is, to my mind, encouraging suicide and leaves those advocating further migration and EU acquiescence complicit in all those deaths. Under those circumstances forceable repatriation even in the face of opposition from the African countries seems to me the lesser of two evils.MarkHopkins said:
Strap on parachutes and drop them in?Richard_Tyndall said:
I would suggest that if we had the will we could make them.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.0 -
There are reasons why people are leaving many of these states in large numbers. We would not want to send people back to them.Cyclefree said:
Really? We are not paying for any aid to any of those countries. Is that really the case? No-one in Europe has any leverage with any of these countries, despite some of them being ex-colonies? Amazing. Where the hell is the aid budget being spent then?foxinsoxuk said:
While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.MP_SE said:
I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
We may wish to send them to other states instead. Whether that is practical is an open question.0 -
You almost sound jubilant.foxinsoxuk said:
Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.bigjohnowls said:
Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.taffys said:So all is well
at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.
However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.
I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.
I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
Do you think the relatives of all those who die as a result of the doctor's actions will be so chipper?0 -
So we continue to encourage people to kill themselves then? Hardly a humane answer.foxinsoxuk said:
Has any government anywhere successfully deported to these places? I remember a year or so we deported the Libyan army who were training in Cambridge, following sex attacks.Cyclefree said:
If there is no state, who is doing the refusing then?MTimT said:
Indeed, for anyone to have influence with a State, there has to be a state.foxinsoxuk said:
While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.MP_SE said:
I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
I think only a very brutal approach could reverse the flow. Life is pretty awful in most of these places.
The measures required are not going to be possible in any democratic society.0 -
Poles demonstrating and burning the EU flag, chaos in Malta, Portugal shifting to left anti-austerity, Sweden introducing border controls, razor wire going up across the Balkans, and UK referendum. Does anyone agree that the EU will comprehensively fail long before the UK referendum creating an unstoppable move by all the EU countries for their own sovereignty.0
-
@suttonnick: Friday's Independent front page: Exclusive - Corbyn steals a march on Labour plotters
#tomorrowspaperstoday https://t.co/j7MHKW6yeY
As predicted in some quarters, Jeremy Corbyn is looking to change the rule book on leadership elections to his advantage.0 -
It's the 'Envy of the World'. Isn't that right?bigjohnowls said:
So all is wellflightpath01 said:
Well in 2010 Gordon Brown said that the NHS now had enough money to run properly and could even undertake a 20 billion programme of efficiency savings. Since then the NHS budget has increased by 17 billion.bigjohnowls said:ITV News @itvnews 12h12 hours ago
David Cameron wrote to his local council complaining about cuts to frontline services http://www.itv.com/news/2015-11-12/david-cameron-writes-to-his-local-council-criticising-significant-cuts-to-frontline-services/ …
What next complaining to the NHS that waiting lists are growing0 -
Playing politics with people's liveswatford30 said:
You almost sound jubilant.foxinsoxuk said:
Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.bigjohnowls said:
Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.taffys said:So all is well
at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.
However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.
I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.
I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
Do you think the relatives of all those who die as a result of the doctor's actions will be so chipper?0 -
@MTimT (Off topic)
I found your Nature article very thought provoking.
There were a couple of points you made which really resonated with me, despite me working in a very different sort of industry. Your comments about:-
1. employees recognizing "that the operating environment is complex and changeable, and that mindlessly following standard procedures without paying attention to what else is going on in the environment can be dangerous"; and
2. metrics becoming a target
are so applicable elsewhere, as was the statement that employees need to report red flags like changes in behaviour. I think it is all too easy for organisations to fall into the trap of measuring everything which can possibly be measured while forgetting that measurement is not the same as evaluation and that it's the latter which will alert those who really look at what is going on whether there is or may be a problem.
Thank you for sharing it. I hope you won't mind if I incorporate some of your general points in my own "Bankers, Please Behave" talks.0 -
Question Time is from the delightful Stoke-on-Trent tonight.0
-
It's amazing that the countries of Africa were very keen to get the Europeans out, became political and economic basket cases, but now insist that illegal immigrants must be allowed to stay in Europe, or, by blackmail, might be prepared to help to resolve the problem. I place no confidence in African countries being able or willing to intercept people smugglers - money will grease all the palms.Cyclefree said:
I would imagine that we are already paying substantial sums by way of aid to at least some of these countries. Perhaps a reminder that there is nothing inevitable about such payments might be made.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
All this money is meant to be making their countries better and buying us influence. So let's bloody well use it.
And if that influence turns out to be so much hot air, well let's stop paying the money and use it instead to make shelter on one of the many relatively uninhabited islands in the Atlantic belonging to various EU countries and put the migrants there until (a) either they return to their home countries; or (b) they find an alternative country to welcome them, which may of course include those European countries who choose to have them rather than those forced to have them.
0 -
There are also human rights issues. Most of those countries are very dangerous, particularly for whatever oppressed minority has had the sense to get out. Our law does not allow us to return them if there is reasonable apprehension of them coming to serious harm.antifrank said:
There are reasons why people are leaving many of these states in large numbers. We would not want to send people back to them.Cyclefree said:
Really? We are not paying for any aid to any of those countries. Is that really the case? No-one in Europe has any leverage with any of these countries, despite some of them being ex-colonies? Amazing. Where the hell is the aid budget being spent then?foxinsoxuk said:
While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.MP_SE said:
I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
We may wish to send them to other states instead. Whether that is practical is an open question.0 -
Don't think this is going to end well for the doctorswatford30 said:
You almost sound jubilant.foxinsoxuk said:
Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.bigjohnowls said:
Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.taffys said:So all is well
at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.
However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.
I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.
I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
Do you think the relatives of all those who die as a result of the doctor's actions will be so chipper?0 -
There are indeed reasons why they leave those states. They are not necessarily the same reason they then continue through other countries to get to Europe.antifrank said:
There are reasons why people are leaving many of these states in large numbers. We would not want to send people back to them.Cyclefree said:
Really? We are not paying for any aid to any of those countries. Is that really the case? No-one in Europe has any leverage with any of these countries, despite some of them being ex-colonies? Amazing. Where the hell is the aid budget being spent then?foxinsoxuk said:
While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.MP_SE said:
I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
We may wish to send them to other states instead. Whether that is practical is an open question.0 -
The BMA have been trying to negotiate for a year. Hunt refused to even explain the content of the contract or discuss safety measures. It was when he threatened imposition that the ballot was called.perdix said:
Methinks that the BMA wanted to provoke a strike by refusing to negotiate.foxinsoxuk said:
Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.bigjohnowls said:
Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.taffys said:So all is well
at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.
However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.
I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.
I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
On the eve of the ballot he made an offer by press release to his friends in the Murdoch media. He has never attempted to negotiate. He has provoked this strike (the ballot closes on Wed 18th) but I will be astonished if the juniors blink. I have not met one yet who is willing to cave in.
Hunt has a real battle coming. The Senior doctors are not going to pull Hunts nuts out of the fire.0 -
I understand why they want to leave. But just because they want to come here does not mean we are obliged to accept them. We cannot be a refuge for the population of every single shithole country in the world. We simply can't. And if we were, Europe - the very Europe which is the attraction - would be destroyed.antifrank said:
There are reasons why people are leaving many of these states in large numbers. We would not want to send people back to them.Cyclefree said:
Really? We are not paying for any aid to any of those countries. Is that really the case? No-one in Europe has any leverage with any of these countries, despite some of them being ex-colonies? Amazing. Where the hell is the aid budget being spent then?foxinsoxuk said:
While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.MP_SE said:
I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
We may wish to send them to other states instead. Whether that is practical is an open question.
So the question is who is let in and the numbers. And the rest will need to be shut out. That may sound brutal and blunt. But it's no more brutal than encouraging people to risk their lives coming here. And - bluntly - European governments owe their primary duty to their own citizens not to everyone else in the world.0 -
Bugger - beaten to it by Antifrank0
-
I worry about winter.foxinsoxuk said:
Has any government anywhere successfully deported to these places? I remember a year or so we deported the Libyan army who were training in Cambridge, following sex attacks.Cyclefree said:
If there is no state, who is doing the refusing then?MTimT said:
Indeed, for anyone to have influence with a State, there has to be a state.foxinsoxuk said:
While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.MP_SE said:
I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
I think only a very brutal approach could reverse the flow. Life is pretty awful in most of these places.
The measures required are not going to be possible in any democratic society.0 -
I'm not a Corbyn supporter but it would surely be totally farcical if he was challenged and couldn't then stand in the resulting leadership election.antifrank said:@suttonnick: Friday's Independent front page: Exclusive - Corbyn steals a march on Labour plotters
#tomorrowspaperstoday https://t.co/j7MHKW6yeY
As predicted in some quarters, Jeremy Corbyn is looking to change the rule book on leadership elections to his advantage.0 -
Any public sympathy and support will evaporate faster than a puddle in the Sahara when more patients start dying, as a direct result of strike action.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Don't think this is going to end well for the doctorswatford30 said:
You almost sound jubilant.foxinsoxuk said:
Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.bigjohnowls said:
Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.taffys said:So all is well
at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.
However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.
I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.
I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
Do you think the relatives of all those who die as a result of the doctor's actions will be so chipper?0 -
I doubt it'll make much difference to mortality rates. The medical profession is highly overrated, they do about as much harm as they do good.watford30 said:
You almost sound jubilant.foxinsoxuk said:
Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.bigjohnowls said:
Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.taffys said:So all is well
at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.
However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.
I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.
I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
Do you think the relatives of all those who die as a result of the doctor's actions will be so chipper?0 -
Jeremy Hunt is doing exactly that.Richard_Tyndall said:
Playing politics with people's liveswatford30 said:
You almost sound jubilant.foxinsoxuk said:
Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.bigjohnowls said:
Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.taffys said:So all is well
at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.
However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.
I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.
I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
Do you think the relatives of all those who die as a result of the doctor's actions will be so chipper?0 -
How many extra patients do you expect to die as a result of your strike action?foxinsoxuk said:
The BMA have been trying to negotiate for a year. Hunt refused to even explain the content of the contract or discuss safety measures. It was when he threatened imposition that the ballot was called.perdix said:
Methinks that the BMA wanted to provoke a strike by refusing to negotiate.foxinsoxuk said:
Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.bigjohnowls said:
Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.taffys said:So all is well
at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.
However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.
I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.
I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
On the eve of the ballot he made an offer by press release to his friends in the Murdoch media. He has never attempted to negotiate. He has provoked this strike (the ballot closes on Wed 18th) but I will be astonished if the juniors blink. I have not met one yet who is willing to cave in.
Hunt has a real battle coming. The Senior doctors are not going to pull Hunts nuts out of the fire.0 -
Hasn't the leader of the Junior Doctors got a wedding photography business that he actively participates in at weekends.foxinsoxuk said:
The BMA have been trying to negotiate for a year. Hunt refused to even explain the content of the contract or discuss safety measures. It was when he threatened imposition that the ballot was called.perdix said:
Methinks that the BMA wanted to provoke a strike by refusing to negotiate.foxinsoxuk said:
Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.bigjohnowls said:
Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.taffys said:So all is well
at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.
However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.
I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.
I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
On the eve of the ballot he made an offer by press release to his friends in the Murdoch media. He has never attempted to negotiate. He has provoked this strike (the ballot closes on Wed 18th) but I will be astonished if the juniors blink. I have not met one yet who is willing to cave in.
Hunt has a real battle coming. The Senior doctors are not going to pull Hunts nuts out of the fire.0 -
They're entitled to refuge. Whether they get it here is a different matter.Cyclefree said:
I understand why they want to leave. But just because they want to come here does not mean we are obliged to accept them. We cannot be a refuge for the population of every single shithole country in the world. We simply can't. And if we were, Europe - the very Europe which is the attraction - would be destroyed.antifrank said:
There are reasons why people are leaving many of these states in large numbers. We would not want to send people back to them.Cyclefree said:
Really? We are not paying for any aid to any of those countries. Is that really the case? No-one in Europe has any leverage with any of these countries, despite some of them being ex-colonies? Amazing. Where the hell is the aid budget being spent then?foxinsoxuk said:
While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.MP_SE said:
I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
We may wish to send them to other states instead. Whether that is practical is an open question.
So the question is who is let in and the numbers. And the rest will need to be shut out. That may sound brutal and blunt. But it's no more brutal than encouraging people to risk their lives coming here. And - bluntly - European governments owe their primary duty to their own citizens not to everyone else in the world.0 -
Fraser Nelson in the Telegraph:
"How Sweden, the most open country in the world, was overwhelmed by migrants
Sweden used to pride itself on giving a warm welcome to outsiders. But as the refugee crisis grows, so too does its sense of injustice"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/11992479/How-Sweden-the-most-open-country-in-the-world-was-overwhelmed-by-migrants.html0 -
What do you think is going to happen to our democratic societies if unlimited numbers of desperate people from vastly different cultures and countries ridden with war and extremism are allowed in?foxinsoxuk said:
Has any government anywhere successfully deported to these places? I remember a year or so we deported the Libyan army who were training in Cambridge, following sex attacks.Cyclefree said:
If there is no state, who is doing the refusing then?MTimT said:
Indeed, for anyone to have influence with a State, there has to be a state.foxinsoxuk said:
While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.MP_SE said:
I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
I think only a very brutal approach could reverse the flow. Life is pretty awful in most of these places.
The measures required are not going to be possible in any democratic society.0 -
I know. NHS ones came within a whisker of killing a close relative within the last month. Without private healthcare intervention that person wouldn't be alive.MonikerDiCanio said:
I doubt it'll make much difference to mortality rates. The medical profession is highly overrated, they do about as much harm as they do good.watford30 said:
You almost sound jubilant.foxinsoxuk said:
Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.bigjohnowls said:
Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.taffys said:So all is well
at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.
However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.
I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.
I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
Do you think the relatives of all those who die as a result of the doctor's actions will be so chipper?0 -
Labour are under pressure to distance themselves from a slur on our serving soldiers by their own Director of Communications, SunNation can reveal.
High-flying Tory MP and former soldier Thomas Tugendhat has written an impassioned letter to Jeremy Corbyn demanding the Labour leader condemn Seamus Milne after we reported the top aide’s shocking views on our Armed Forces.
Mr Tugendhat wrote tonight: “You have spoken eloquently about wanting to see a ‘kinder politics’ and I welcome this. This is your opportunity to lead by example.”
He added: “As the leader of the Labour Party and Her Majesty’s Opposition, I urge you to consider the implication of having people on your team whose views support violent extremists rather than democrats.
“I hope you will take this opportunity to condemn Mr Milne’s remarks. To stay silent would be wrong and may be seen as endorsing the views of those who choose violence instead of political debate.”
http://bit.ly/1PECzWY0 -
Yes.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Hasn't the leader of the Junior Doctors got a wedding photography business that he actively participates in at weekends.foxinsoxuk said:
The BMA have been trying to negotiate for a year. Hunt refused to even explain the content of the contract or discuss safety measures. It was when he threatened imposition that the ballot was called.perdix said:
Methinks that the BMA wanted to provoke a strike by refusing to negotiate.foxinsoxuk said:
Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.bigjohnowls said:
Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.taffys said:So all is well
at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.
However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.
I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.
I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
On the eve of the ballot he made an offer by press release to his friends in the Murdoch media. He has never attempted to negotiate. He has provoked this strike (the ballot closes on Wed 18th) but I will be astonished if the juniors blink. I have not met one yet who is willing to cave in.
Hunt has a real battle coming. The Senior doctors are not going to pull Hunts nuts out of the fire.
'The leader of the junior doctors has every reason to want to avoid Saturday work – he runs a wedding photography business on the side.
Johann Malawana, 35, who chairs the BMA's junior doctors committee, offers 'Gold', 'Platinum' and 'Diamond' packages – and a special discount where one of the couple works for the NHS.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3308843/What-want-No-work-Saturdays-m-weekend-wedding-photographer-says-leader-junior-doctors.html#ixzz3rJkCXfwm
0 -
Some of them may be refugees. Others plainly aren't and are entitled to nothing. Though they may want lots of things. "I want doesn't get" as my mother told me.antifrank said:
They're entitled to refuge. Whether they get it here is a different matter.Cyclefree said:
I understand why they want to leave. But just because they want to come here does not mean we are obliged to accept them. We cannot be a refuge for the population of every single shithole country in the world. We simply can't. And if we were, Europe - the very Europe which is the attraction - would be destroyed.antifrank said:
There are reasons why people are leaving many of these states in large numbers. We would not want to send people back to them.Cyclefree said:
Really? We are not paying for any aid to any of those countries. Is that really the case? No-one in Europe has any leverage with any of these countries, despite some of them being ex-colonies? Amazing. Where the hell is the aid budget being spent then?foxinsoxuk said:
While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.MP_SE said:
I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:foxinsoxuk said:MP_SE said:I
We may wish to send them to other states instead. Whether that is practical is an open question.
So the question is who is let in and the numbers. And the rest will need to be shut out. That may sound brutal and blunt. But it's no more brutal than encouraging people to risk their lives coming here. And - bluntly - European governments owe their primary duty to their own citizens not to everyone else in the world.
But if the number of refugees - even within the terms of the 1951 Convention - are overwhelming, then I think we may have to think the unthinkable and simply say that we can no longer operate under that regime. That even for genuine refugees there will have to be a numerical limit.
Or other countries - in Asia, Australasia, the US, South America, China - will have to take them. And how likely is that, do you suppose?0 -
The Last Panthers looks to be a classy piece of TV. Yet again, SKY getting the good stuff...0
-
If it does it would save us a lot of money. Holding a referendum is pretty expensive.Big_G_NorthWales said:Poles demonstrating and burning the EU flag, chaos in Malta, Portugal shifting to left anti-austerity, Sweden introducing border controls, razor wire going up across the Balkans, and UK referendum. Does anyone agree that the EU will comprehensively fail long before the UK referendum creating an unstoppable move by all the EU countries for their own sovereignty.
0 -
Much of the world's population is entitled to refuge. Whether that promise is fufillable is debatable.antifrank said:
They're entitled to refuge. Whether they get it here is a different matter.Cyclefree said:
I understand why they want to leave. But just because they want to come here does not mean we are obliged to accept them. We cannot be a refuge for the population of every single shithole country in the world. We simply can't. And if we were, Europe - the very Europe which is the attraction - would be destroyed.antifrank said:
There are reasons why people are leaving many of these states in large numbers. We would not want to send people back to them.Cyclefree said:
Really? We are notfoxinsoxuk said:
While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.MP_SE said:
I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.foxinsoxuk said:
Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.Richard_Tyndall said:
Large scale enforced repatriation.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.MP_SE said:I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
"I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
Refusal to accept any more migrants
Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.
None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
We may wish to send them to other states instead. Whether that is practical is an open question.
So the question is who is let in and the numbers. And the rest will need to be shut out. That may sound brutal and blunt. But it's no more brutal than encouraging people to risk their lives coming here. And - bluntly - European governments owe their primary duty to their own citizens not to everyone else in the world.0
