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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Harry Hayfield’s Local By-Election Preview with 2 LAB defen

SystemSystem Posts: 12,292
edited 2015 12 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Harry Hayfield’s Local By-Election Preview with 2 LAB defences, a Plaid one and an Indy one

Ogmore Vale on Bridgend (Ind defence)
Result of council at last election (2012): Labour 39, Independents 10, Liberal Democrats 3, Conservatives 1, Plaid Cymru 1 (Labour majority of 24)
Result of ward at last election (2012): Independent 505 (55%), Labour 414 (45%)
Candidates duly nominated: Dhanisha Patel (Lab), Sally Hyde (UKIP), Ralph Shepherd (Ind), Tim Thomas (Plaid), Jamie Wallis (Con)

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,351
    FPT
    bigjohnowls said:
    » show previous quotes
    And ruining the NHS

    On almost every measure, the NHS in England is in a worse position than this time last year.
    And as we enter winter, that spells bad news: last year's was the worst for a generation with A&E waits hitting their highest levels since targets were introduced in 2004.
    But the pressures are now spreading more to other parts of the system. Once in hospital, doctors are finding it difficult to discharge patients because the support services in the community needed for the most vulnerable are not available.
    Waits for diagnostic tests are lengthening and the key cancer target has been missed for well over a year.
    Even on routine treatment - hips and knees - the signs are not good. The target is being met, but on the current trajectory it will be missed by the end of the year. The weather may be mild, but winter has come early for the NHS.

    I said:
    So it is confirmed. Labour is indeed the Starks. And we all know what happens to them.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,351
    Talking of which 2 quite tricky looking defences for Labour tonight. Be interesting to see how they get on.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,351
    Anyone there?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,238
    edited 2015 12
    DavidL said:

    Anyone there?

    I was there. But now I'm here, wherever this is.

    Edit. And as ever, thanks Harry.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    The Dorset by-election is an intriguing one.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Will the EU collapse soon due to its inherent anomalies and contradictions; or will it need a vital push from the Leavers/Outers in the UK referendum to see it tumble into oblivion?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,238
    MikeK said:

    Will the EU collapse soon due to its inherent anomalies and contradictions; or will it need a vital push from the Leavers/Outers in the UK referendum to see it tumble into oblivion?

    The EU will survive the UK leaving. Even if Greece collapses again and the migrant crisis worsens, it will continue in one form or another.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819

    Simon Danczuk paid his now estranged wife 621 hours overtime while she worked in his office from 2010 to 2015 - the most any MP claimed for a partner!!

    "worked in his office" ay! eye eye gnarff
    Finbarr lucky man Saunders
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,418
    chestnut said:

    The Dorset by-election is an intriguing one.

    I think the only safe prediction for that one is that the LibDems won't win. Can't be too many 4 way marginal wards in England.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,741
    edited 2015 12
    FPT:
    RobD said:

    MikeL said:

    Two key votes next week on votes at 16.

    Tuesday: Commons: Vote to overturn Lords amendment giving vote at 16 for Local Elections

    Wednesday: Lords: Vote on amendment to give vote at 16 for EU referendum

    Will be very interesting to watch the Lords turnout again - will it be very high again as it was for Tax Credits and IVR. It was far lower when they passed the amendment re vote at 16 for Local Elections.

    http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/business-papers/lords/lords-divisions/?date=2015-Oct-26&itemId=1&session=2015-May-18

    Let's hope the Tory peers are whipped mercilessly.
    Yep - the Lords numbers have been going all in the Con direction in recent weeks - until the Lord Stewartby retirement today which is a setback - he has been a reliable vote in recent divisions.

    Incidentally re the 45 Peers announced by Cameron in the Dissolution honours list (C - 26, L - 8, LD - 11) - the number introduced so far and thus eligible to vote as of today now stands by my count at C - 18, L - 1, LD - 5.

    So Con getting a short term boost by getting their Peers introduced first. Impossible to tell but the vote on Wed could easily be on an absolute knife edge. I think the Govt must be favourite to lose but I said that on IVR which they somehow pulled out of the bag - so who knows!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    edited 2015 12
    MikeL said:

    FPT:

    RobD said:

    MikeL said:

    Two key votes next week on votes at 16.

    Tuesday: Commons: Vote to overturn Lords amendment giving vote at 16 for Local Elections

    Wednesday: Lords: Vote on amendment to give vote at 16 for EU referendum

    Will be very interesting to watch the Lords turnout again - will it be very high again as it was for Tax Credits and IVR. It was far lower when they passed the amendment re vote at 16 for Local Elections.

    http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/business-papers/lords/lords-divisions/?date=2015-Oct-26&itemId=1&session=2015-May-18

    Let's hope the Tory peers are whipped mercilessly.
    Yep - the Lords numbers have been going all in the Con direction in recent weeks - until the Lord Stewartby retirement today which is a setback - he has been a reliable vote in recent divisions.

    Incidentally re the 45 Peers announced by Cameron in the Dissolution honours list (C - 26, L - 8, LD - 11) - the number introduced so far and thus eligible to vote as of today now stands by my count at C - 18, L - 1, LD - 5.

    So Con getting a short term boost by getting their Peers introduced first. Impossible to tell but the vote on Wed could easily be on an absolute knife edge. I think the Govt must be favourite to lose but I said that on IVR which they somehow pulled out of the bag - so who knows!
    Anyone got a chart of the ages of those with life peerages by party? Given that I imagine no LD peers will be appointed in the foreseeable future, it is merely a matter of attrition. :p
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,346
    MikeL said:

    So Con getting a short term boost by getting their Peers introduced first. Impossible to tell but the vote on Wed could easily be on an absolute knife edge. I think the Govt must be favourite to lose but I said that on IVR which they somehow pulled out of the bag - so who knows!

    What vote on Wednesday? Your updates on the HoL are very interesting.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    tlg86 said:

    MikeL said:

    So Con getting a short term boost by getting their Peers introduced first. Impossible to tell but the vote on Wed could easily be on an absolute knife edge. I think the Govt must be favourite to lose but I said that on IVR which they somehow pulled out of the bag - so who knows!

    What vote on Wednesday? Your updates on the HoL are very interesting.
    The vote to extend the franchise in the EU referendum to children.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Teesside is falling to pieces.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739
    RobD FPT

    I assume that since the Malta deal didn't go through we didn't have to stump up.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233

    RobD FPT

    I assume that since the Malta deal didn't go through we didn't have to stump up.

    Good to know, thanks.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,693
    MikeK said:

    Will the EU collapse soon due to its inherent anomalies and contradictions; or will it need a vital push from the Leavers/Outers in the UK referendum to see it tumble into oblivion?

    Literally a Marxist dialectical-materialist view of history.
    Between this common tone of anti-EU chat and the terror of TTIP, I wonder who really believes that Britain hors EU would be a free-trading restoration of Victoriana?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,346
    RobD said:

    tlg86 said:

    MikeL said:

    So Con getting a short term boost by getting their Peers introduced first. Impossible to tell but the vote on Wed could easily be on an absolute knife edge. I think the Govt must be favourite to lose but I said that on IVR which they somehow pulled out of the bag - so who knows!

    What vote on Wednesday? Your updates on the HoL are very interesting.
    The vote to extend the franchise in the EU referendum to children.
    Ah, thanks. It's one thing for the Lords to vote against something that the Government hadn't promised in its manifesto, it's quite another for them to change something that was in their manifesto.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Freggles.. how can you tell ..it was always a crapheap..
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,773
    ITV News ‏@itvnews 12h12 hours ago
    David Cameron wrote to his local council complaining about cuts to frontline services http://www.itv.com/news/2015-11-12/david-cameron-writes-to-his-local-council-criticising-significant-cuts-to-frontline-services/

    What next complaining to the NHS that waiting lists are growing
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    ITV News ‏@itvnews 12h12 hours ago
    David Cameron wrote to his local council complaining about cuts to frontline services http://www.itv.com/news/2015-11-12/david-cameron-writes-to-his-local-council-criticising-significant-cuts-to-frontline-services/

    What next complaining to the NHS that waiting lists are growing

    Well in 2010 Gordon Brown said that the NHS now had enough money to run properly and could even undertake a 20 billion programme of efficiency savings. Since then the NHS budget has increased by 17 billion.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233

    ITV News ‏@itvnews 12h12 hours ago
    David Cameron wrote to his local council complaining about cuts to frontline services http://www.itv.com/news/2015-11-12/david-cameron-writes-to-his-local-council-criticising-significant-cuts-to-frontline-services/

    What next complaining to the NHS that waiting lists are growing

    Well in 2010 Gordon Brown said that the NHS now had enough money to run properly and could even undertake a 20 billion programme of efficiency savings. Since then the NHS budget has increased by 17 billion.
    Last time I checked, Brown was a Tory, so your point is invalid. :p
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    *cough*Scotland*cough*

    @thespainreport: LATEST: Fitch Downgrades Catalonia To Junk Bond Status Because Of Separatist Declaration
    https://t.co/yIS5y96Tph
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    edited 2015 12
    RobD said:

    ITV News ‏@itvnews 12h12 hours ago
    David Cameron wrote to his local council complaining about cuts to frontline services http://www.itv.com/news/2015-11-12/david-cameron-writes-to-his-local-council-criticising-significant-cuts-to-frontline-services/

    What next complaining to the NHS that waiting lists are growing

    Well in 2010 Gordon Brown said that the NHS now had enough money to run properly and could even undertake a 20 billion programme of efficiency savings. Since then the NHS budget has increased by 17 billion.
    Last time I checked, Brown was a Tory, so your point is invalid. :p
    You are feeling your inner Corbynista I see... ;-)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,238
    RobD said:

    ITV News ‏@itvnews 12h12 hours ago
    David Cameron wrote to his local council complaining about cuts to frontline services http://www.itv.com/news/2015-11-12/david-cameron-writes-to-his-local-council-criticising-significant-cuts-to-frontline-services/

    What next complaining to the NHS that waiting lists are growing

    Well in 2010 Gordon Brown said that the NHS now had enough money to run properly and could even undertake a 20 billion programme of efficiency savings. Since then the NHS budget has increased by 17 billion.
    Last time I checked, Brown was a Tory, so your point is invalid. :p
    We are all Tories now, comrade!
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @C_KAndrews: Got hold of @UNISONPSS submission to @hmics control room report. M9 tragedy was isolated incident? Think again. Excl in tmrw's @thecourieruk
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    Scott_P said:

    @C_KAndrews: Got hold of @UNISONPSS submission to @hmics control room report. M9 tragedy was isolated incident? Think again. Excl in tmrw's @thecourieruk

    There are other examples of people abandoned? If so that's an utter travesty.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    I don't imagine they have much time for sunning themselves.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Guido has got the dirt on Seumas Milne:
    The only comment we can get from from the Labour Party’ press office – which Seumas now controls – is a response to a question we did not ask:

    “The allegation that Seumas attended a terrorist training camp is entirely false.”
    http://order-order.com/2015/11/12/seumas-milne-bragged-about-going-to-a-pflp-camp-in-his-gap-year/
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,741
    edited 2015 12
    RobD said:

    MikeL said:

    FPT:

    RobD said:

    MikeL said:

    Two key votes next week on votes at 16.

    Tuesday: Commons: Vote to overturn Lords amendment giving vote at 16 for Local Elections

    Wednesday: Lords: Vote on amendment to give vote at 16 for EU referendum

    Will be very interesting to watch the Lords turnout again - will it be very high again as it was for Tax Credits and IVR. It was far lower when they passed the amendment re vote at 16 for Local Elections.

    http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/business-papers/lords/lords-divisions/?date=2015-Oct-26&itemId=1&session=2015-May-18

    Let's hope the Tory peers are whipped mercilessly.
    Yep - the Lords numbers have been going all in the Con direction in recent weeks - until the Lord Stewartby retirement today which is a setback - he has been a reliable vote in recent divisions.

    Incidentally re the 45 Peers announced by Cameron in the Dissolution honours list (C - 26, L - 8, LD - 11) - the number introduced so far and thus eligible to vote as of today now stands by my count at C - 18, L - 1, LD - 5.

    So Con getting a short term boost by getting their Peers introduced first. Impossible to tell but the vote on Wed could easily be on an absolute knife edge. I think the Govt must be favourite to lose but I said that on IVR which they somehow pulled out of the bag - so who knows!
    Anyone got a chart of the ages of those with life peerages by party? Given that I imagine no LD peers will be appointed in the foreseeable future, it is merely a matter of attrition. :p
    Sorry - don't have ages. But, see link:

    http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/lords/composition-of-the-lords/

    First remember all hereditaries get replaced by same Party so no attrition there.

    Now, I've done a quick count of Life Peers appointed since May 2010 - these are, APPROX:

    Con - 105, Lab - 53, LD - 51

    Now, one would assume these people are very unlikely to retire / die soon - obviously a few might, but not many.

    So this means that the pool of Life Peers appointed pre May 2010 is as follows:

    Con - 97, Lab - 155, LD - 57

    So one would expect that Lab + LD together (which is what matters as they are voting together) should suffer quite a bit more attrition than Con.

    Only caveat is that I suspect there are a higher proportion of Con Peers dating back pre 1997 and these will be the most likely to die / retire. But that should be a fairly small part of the total.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739
    I had missed the fact, by the way, that Merkel has called for the reintroduction of the Dublin accords. So now that she has encouraged hundreds of thousands of migrants to come to Europe with the promise they will be welcome in Germany she is saying they should be sent back to the EU countries they pass through to get to Germany.

    It is no wonder the Hungarians are so pissed off.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,773
    edited 2015 12

    ITV News ‏@itvnews 12h12 hours ago
    David Cameron wrote to his local council complaining about cuts to frontline services http://www.itv.com/news/2015-11-12/david-cameron-writes-to-his-local-council-criticising-significant-cuts-to-frontline-services/

    What next complaining to the NHS that waiting lists are growing

    Well in 2010 Gordon Brown said that the NHS now had enough money to run properly and could even undertake a 20 billion programme of efficiency savings. Since then the NHS budget has increased by 17 billion.
    So all is well

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    MikeL said:

    RobD said:

    MikeL said:

    FPT:

    RobD said:

    MikeL said:

    Two key votes next week on votes at 16.

    Tuesday: Commons: Vote to overturn Lords amendment giving vote at 16 for Local Elections

    Wednesday: Lords: Vote on amendment to give vote at 16 for EU referendum

    Will be very interesting to watch the Lords turnout again - will it be very high again as it was for Tax Credits and IVR. It was far lower when they passed the amendment re vote at 16 for Local Elections.

    http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/business-papers/lords/lords-divisions/?date=2015-Oct-26&itemId=1&session=2015-May-18

    Let's hope the Tory peers are whipped mercilessly.
    Yep - the Lords numbers have been going all in the Con direction in recent weeks - until the Lord Stewartby retirement today which is a setback - he has been a reliable vote in recent divisions.

    Incidentally re the 45 Peers announced by Cameron in the Dissolution honours list (C - 26, L - 8, LD - 11) - the number introduced so far and thus eligible to vote as of today now stands by my count at C - 18, L - 1, LD - 5.

    So Con getting a short term boost by getting their Peers introduced first. Impossible to tell but the vote on Wed could easily be on an absolute knife edge. I think the Govt must be favourite to lose but I said that on IVR which they somehow pulled out of the bag - so who knows!
    Anyone got a chart of the ages of those with life peerages by party? Given that I imagine no LD peers will be appointed in the foreseeable future, it is merely a matter of attrition. :p
    Sorry - don't have ages. But, see link:

    http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/lords/composition-of-the-lords/

    First remember all hereditaries get replaced by same Party so no attrition there.

    Now, I've done a quick count of Life Peers appointed since May 2010 - these are, APPROX:

    Con - 105, Lab - 53, LD - 51

    Now, one would assume these people are very unlikely to retire / die soon - obviously a few might, but not many.

    So this means that the pool of Life Peers appointed pre May 2010 is as follows:

    Con - 97, Lab - 155, LD - 57

    So one would expect that Lab + LD together (which is what matters as they are voting together) should suffer quite a bit more attrition than Con.

    Only caveat is that I suspect there are a higher proportion of Con Peers dating back pre 1997 and these will be the most likely to die / retire. But that should be a fairly small part of the total.
    One of the things I've been interested in doing (thinking about this makes me realise what a boring life I lead), is to plot party allegiance in the house going back several decades. Unfortunately, I don't think there is any resource from the information can be accessed easily.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    Scott_P said:

    *cough*Scotland*cough*

    @thespainreport: LATEST: Fitch Downgrades Catalonia To Junk Bond Status Because Of Separatist Declaration
    https://t.co/yIS5y96Tph

    Awesome. What are the bonds yielding now though ?
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    These creeps are tempted to loiter and prevaricate in salubrious surroundings, they'd be brisker in their decision making if they held their summits in some of the numeous hell-holes available in modern Europe.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,346

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    These creeps are tempted to loiter and prevaricate in salubrious surroundings, they'd be brisker in their decision making if they held their summits in some of the numeous hell-holes available in modern Europe.
    Kettering?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548

    I had missed the fact, by the way, that Merkel has called for the reintroduction of the Dublin accords. So now that she has encouraged hundreds of thousands of migrants to come to Europe with the promise they will be welcome in Germany she is saying they should be sent back to the EU countries they pass through to get to Germany.

    It is no wonder the Hungarians are so pissed off.

    Presumably the other countries could retort by saying that since those migrants are already in a safe country (Germany) they have no need to leave it to come to their countries to claim asylum.

    Merkel has behaved very stupidly. She may be supported by Germans but if she wanted to make this a European remedy then she ought to have consulted other European states first before opening her mouth. It serves her right if now they tell her to get stuffed.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    ITV News ‏@itvnews 12h12 hours ago
    David Cameron wrote to his local council complaining about cuts to frontline services http://www.itv.com/news/2015-11-12/david-cameron-writes-to-his-local-council-criticising-significant-cuts-to-frontline-services/

    What next complaining to the NHS that waiting lists are growing

    Well in 2010 Gordon Brown said that the NHS now had enough money to run properly and could even undertake a 20 billion programme of efficiency savings. Since then the NHS budget has increased by 17 billion.
    So all is well
    The govt have funded the NHS in line with labour plans and then some, and have pledged a further 8 billion to the end of this parliament over and above what it promised in the election. In the face of this spending on top of what labour said was adequate funding then you explain the waiting times... assuming that is they are valid. I am regularly taking my family members to hospital appointments which do not seem particularly untimely; I appreciate how hard the NHS is working.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    MP_SE said:

    Guido has got the dirt on Seumas Milne:

    The only comment we can get from from the Labour Party’ press office – which Seumas now controls – is a response to a question we did not ask:

    “The allegation that Seumas attended a terrorist training camp is entirely false.”
    http://order-order.com/2015/11/12/seumas-milne-bragged-about-going-to-a-pflp-camp-in-his-gap-year/

    That might not have been the question but it does seem to be the allegation.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Faster deportations of economic migrants would be a start. Word would quickly filter back to places such as the Western Balkans and the numbers would start to fall.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited 2015 12
    So all is well

    at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    These creeps are tempted to loiter and prevaricate in salubrious surroundings, they'd be brisker in their decision making if they held their summits in some of the numeous hell-holes available in modern Europe.
    A cold room with leaky pipes and hard wooden chairs tends to speed up decision making.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,741
    edited 2015 12
    RobD said:

    One of the things I've been interested in doing (thinking about this makes me realise what a boring life I lead), is to plot party allegiance in the house going back several decades. Unfortunately, I don't think there is any resource from the information can be accessed easily.

    This will help to some degree!

    The link below has the figures for the last 15 years - see page 12 - which is 16/69.

    The numbers are for January each year - so you can see how much the numbers have changed just this year - comparing now to January 2015.

    One thing that needs pointing out is there is a complete misconception that the number of Peers is growing rapidly - whereas in fact it isn't!

    Today there are 820 - including the 45 announced a few weeks ago in the Dissolution Honours list. In January 2012 (see link), there were 787. So the number of Peers is up just 33 in almost four years!

    What is happening is that there is a lot of turnover - there are a lot of appointments but lots are retiring and dying (and some are taking leave of absence).

    https://www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit/research/parliament/house-of-lords/enoughisenough/Enough_is_enough_-_regulating_prime_ministerial_appointments_to_the_Lords.pdf
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    Cyclefree said:

    I had missed the fact, by the way, that Merkel has called for the reintroduction of the Dublin accords. So now that she has encouraged hundreds of thousands of migrants to come to Europe with the promise they will be welcome in Germany she is saying they should be sent back to the EU countries they pass through to get to Germany.

    It is no wonder the Hungarians are so pissed off.

    Presumably the other countries could retort by saying that since those migrants are already in a safe country (Germany) they have no need to leave it to come to their countries to claim asylum.

    Merkel has behaved very stupidly. She may be supported by Germans but if she wanted to make this a European remedy then she ought to have consulted other European states first before opening her mouth. It serves her right if now they tell her to get stuffed.

    I think Merkel will go down in history as one of the worst Western leaders of the earliest 21st Century.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Fpt:
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Simon Danczuk ‏@SimonDanczuk Nov 11
    Went for a run this morning

    Back clearly better now China economy class trip cancelled

    I'm not a doctor (well, not that kind), but is it possible to have a condition that is aggravated by sitting for prolonged periods, but not by running?
    OK in business class seats and running 10k though apparently.
    Because you can lie down. That didn't answer my question either.
    PB Tories defending Danczuk answers mine though.
    Lol okay. If any medical expert is in a position to chime in, would be most grateful.
    Running (built up to over time) is an excellent treatment for many people with back pain:

    http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Backpain/Pages/Backexercises.aspx

    The principle is to build up core muscle strength, though losing weight is an additional plus.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233

    Fpt:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Simon Danczuk ‏@SimonDanczuk Nov 11
    Went for a run this morning

    Back clearly better now China economy class trip cancelled

    I'm not a doctor (well, not that kind), but is it possible to have a condition that is aggravated by sitting for prolonged periods, but not by running?
    OK in business class seats and running 10k though apparently.
    Because you can lie down. That didn't answer my question either.
    PB Tories defending Danczuk answers mine though.
    Lol okay. If any medical expert is in a position to chime in, would be most grateful.
    Running (built up to over time) is an excellent treatment for many people with back pain:

    http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Backpain/Pages/Backexercises.aspx

    The principle is to build up core muscle strength, though losing weight is an additional plus.
    Thought as much
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    edited 2015 12

    Fpt:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Simon Danczuk ‏@SimonDanczuk Nov 11
    Went for a run this morning

    Back clearly better now China economy class trip cancelled

    I'm not a doctor (well, not that kind), but is it possible to have a condition that is aggravated by sitting for prolonged periods, but not by running?
    OK in business class seats and running 10k though apparently.
    Because you can lie down. That didn't answer my question either.
    PB Tories defending Danczuk answers mine though.
    Lol okay. If any medical expert is in a position to chime in, would be most grateful.
    Running (built up to over time) is an excellent treatment for many people with back pain:

    http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Backpain/Pages/Backexercises.aspx

    The principle is to build up core muscle strength, though losing weight is an additional plus.

    Gentle regular movement seems to work; don't stand, sit, or lie for too long.

    Running may help the back, but not sure it's too good for other places (e.g. ankles, knees).

  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,773
    taffys said:

    So all is well

    at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.

    Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.

    However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.

    I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I would suggest that if we had the will we could make them.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I would suggest that if we had the will we could make them.
    Strap on parachutes and drop them in?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    RobD said:

    Fpt:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Simon Danczuk ‏@SimonDanczuk Nov 11
    Went for a run this morning

    Back clearly better now China economy class trip cancelled

    I'm not a doctor (well, not that kind), but is it possible to have a condition that is aggravated by sitting for prolonged periods, but not by running?
    OK in business class seats and running 10k though apparently.
    Because you can lie down. That didn't answer my question either.
    PB Tories defending Danczuk answers mine though.
    Lol okay. If any medical expert is in a position to chime in, would be most grateful.
    Running (built up to over time) is an excellent treatment for many people with back pain:

    http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Backpain/Pages/Backexercises.aspx

    The principle is to build up core muscle strength, though losing weight is an additional plus.
    Thought as much
    Last year I did my lower back playing football... It was talking up to 10 mins to get out of my chair, but once I was up, running was no problem
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.
    While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    isam said:

    RobD said:

    Fpt:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Simon Danczuk ‏@SimonDanczuk Nov 11
    Went for a run this morning

    Back clearly better now China economy class trip cancelled

    I'm not a doctor (well, not that kind), but is it possible to have a condition that is aggravated by sitting for prolonged periods, but not by running?
    OK in business class seats and running 10k though apparently.
    Because you can lie down. That didn't answer my question either.
    PB Tories defending Danczuk answers mine though.
    Lol okay. If any medical expert is in a position to chime in, would be most grateful.
    Running (built up to over time) is an excellent treatment for many people with back pain:

    http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Backpain/Pages/Backexercises.aspx

    The principle is to build up core muscle strength, though losing weight is an additional plus.
    Thought as much
    Last year I did my lower back playing football... It was talking up to 10 mins to get out of my chair, but once I was up, running was no problem
    Just think of how comfortable you'd have been on a 10 hour flight in business ;)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I would imagine that we are already paying substantial sums by way of aid to at least some of these countries. Perhaps a reminder that there is nothing inevitable about such payments might be made.

    All this money is meant to be making their countries better and buying us influence. So let's bloody well use it.

    And if that influence turns out to be so much hot air, well let's stop paying the money and use it instead to make shelter on one of the many relatively uninhabited islands in the Atlantic belonging to various EU countries and put the migrants there until (a) either they return to their home countries; or (b) they find an alternative country to welcome them, which may of course include those European countries who choose to have them rather than those forced to have them.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Fpt:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Simon Danczuk ‏@SimonDanczuk Nov 11
    Went for a run this morning

    Back clearly better now China economy class trip cancelled

    I'm not a doctor (well, not that kind), but is it possible to have a condition that is aggravated by sitting for prolonged periods, but not by running?
    OK in business class seats and running 10k though apparently.
    Because you can lie down. That didn't answer my question either.
    PB Tories defending Danczuk answers mine though.
    Lol okay. If any medical expert is in a position to chime in, would be most grateful.
    Running (built up to over time) is an excellent treatment for many people with back pain:

    http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Backpain/Pages/Backexercises.aspx

    The principle is to build up core muscle strength, though losing weight is an additional plus.
    But a terrible one if they also have knee problems.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    taffys said:

    So all is well

    at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.

    Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.

    However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.

    I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
    Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.

    1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.

    I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.
    While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.
    Really? We are not paying for any aid to any of those countries. Is that really the case? No-one in Europe has any leverage with any of these countries, despite some of them being ex-colonies? Amazing. Where the hell is the aid budget being spent then?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.
    While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.
    Indeed, for anyone to have influence with a State, there has to be a state.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    MTimT said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.
    While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.
    Indeed, for anyone to have influence with a State, there has to be a state.
    If there is no state, who is doing the refusing then?
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    taffys said:

    So all is well

    at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.

    Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.

    However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.

    I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
    Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.

    1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.

    I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
    Methinks that the BMA wanted to provoke a strike by refusing to negotiate.


  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Cyclefree said:

    MTimT said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.
    While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.
    Indeed, for anyone to have influence with a State, there has to be a state.
    If there is no state, who is doing the refusing then?
    Has any government anywhere successfully deported to these places? I remember a year or so we deported the Libyan army who were training in Cambridge, following sex attacks.

    I think only a very brutal approach could reverse the flow. Life is pretty awful in most of these places.

    The measures required are not going to be possible in any democratic society.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I would suggest that if we had the will we could make them.
    Strap on parachutes and drop them in?
    Well the current policy is, to my mind, encouraging suicide and leaves those advocating further migration and EU acquiescence complicit in all those deaths. Under those circumstances forceable repatriation even in the face of opposition from the African countries seems to me the lesser of two evils.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Cyclefree said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.
    While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.
    Really? We are not paying for any aid to any of those countries. Is that really the case? No-one in Europe has any leverage with any of these countries, despite some of them being ex-colonies? Amazing. Where the hell is the aid budget being spent then?
    There are reasons why people are leaving many of these states in large numbers. We would not want to send people back to them.

    We may wish to send them to other states instead. Whether that is practical is an open question.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    taffys said:

    So all is well

    at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.

    Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.

    However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.

    I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
    Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.

    1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.

    I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
    You almost sound jubilant.

    Do you think the relatives of all those who die as a result of the doctor's actions will be so chipper?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739

    Cyclefree said:

    MTimT said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.
    While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.
    Indeed, for anyone to have influence with a State, there has to be a state.
    If there is no state, who is doing the refusing then?
    Has any government anywhere successfully deported to these places? I remember a year or so we deported the Libyan army who were training in Cambridge, following sex attacks.

    I think only a very brutal approach could reverse the flow. Life is pretty awful in most of these places.

    The measures required are not going to be possible in any democratic society.
    So we continue to encourage people to kill themselves then? Hardly a humane answer.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,266
    Poles demonstrating and burning the EU flag, chaos in Malta, Portugal shifting to left anti-austerity, Sweden introducing border controls, razor wire going up across the Balkans, and UK referendum. Does anyone agree that the EU will comprehensively fail long before the UK referendum creating an unstoppable move by all the EU countries for their own sovereignty.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @suttonnick: Friday's Independent front page: Exclusive - Corbyn steals a march on Labour plotters
    #tomorrowspaperstoday https://t.co/j7MHKW6yeY

    As predicted in some quarters, Jeremy Corbyn is looking to change the rule book on leadership elections to his advantage.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    ITV News ‏@itvnews 12h12 hours ago
    David Cameron wrote to his local council complaining about cuts to frontline services http://www.itv.com/news/2015-11-12/david-cameron-writes-to-his-local-council-criticising-significant-cuts-to-frontline-services/

    What next complaining to the NHS that waiting lists are growing

    Well in 2010 Gordon Brown said that the NHS now had enough money to run properly and could even undertake a 20 billion programme of efficiency savings. Since then the NHS budget has increased by 17 billion.
    So all is well

    It's the 'Envy of the World'. Isn't that right?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739
    watford30 said:

    taffys said:

    So all is well

    at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.

    Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.

    However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.

    I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
    Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.

    1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.

    I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
    You almost sound jubilant.

    Do you think the relatives of all those who die as a result of the doctor's actions will be so chipper?
    Playing politics with people's lives
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    @MTimT (Off topic)

    I found your Nature article very thought provoking.

    There were a couple of points you made which really resonated with me, despite me working in a very different sort of industry. Your comments about:-

    1. employees recognizing "that the operating environment is complex and changeable, and that mindlessly following standard procedures without paying attention to what else is going on in the environment can be dangerous"; and
    2. metrics becoming a target

    are so applicable elsewhere, as was the statement that employees need to report red flags like changes in behaviour. I think it is all too easy for organisations to fall into the trap of measuring everything which can possibly be measured while forgetting that measurement is not the same as evaluation and that it's the latter which will alert those who really look at what is going on whether there is or may be a problem.

    Thank you for sharing it. I hope you won't mind if I incorporate some of your general points in my own "Bankers, Please Behave" talks.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Question Time is from the delightful Stoke-on-Trent tonight.
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    Cyclefree said:

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I would imagine that we are already paying substantial sums by way of aid to at least some of these countries. Perhaps a reminder that there is nothing inevitable about such payments might be made.

    All this money is meant to be making their countries better and buying us influence. So let's bloody well use it.

    And if that influence turns out to be so much hot air, well let's stop paying the money and use it instead to make shelter on one of the many relatively uninhabited islands in the Atlantic belonging to various EU countries and put the migrants there until (a) either they return to their home countries; or (b) they find an alternative country to welcome them, which may of course include those European countries who choose to have them rather than those forced to have them.
    It's amazing that the countries of Africa were very keen to get the Europeans out, became political and economic basket cases, but now insist that illegal immigrants must be allowed to stay in Europe, or, by blackmail, might be prepared to help to resolve the problem. I place no confidence in African countries being able or willing to intercept people smugglers - money will grease all the palms.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,351
    antifrank said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.
    While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.
    Really? We are not paying for any aid to any of those countries. Is that really the case? No-one in Europe has any leverage with any of these countries, despite some of them being ex-colonies? Amazing. Where the hell is the aid budget being spent then?
    There are reasons why people are leaving many of these states in large numbers. We would not want to send people back to them.

    We may wish to send them to other states instead. Whether that is practical is an open question.
    There are also human rights issues. Most of those countries are very dangerous, particularly for whatever oppressed minority has had the sense to get out. Our law does not allow us to return them if there is reasonable apprehension of them coming to serious harm.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,266
    watford30 said:

    taffys said:

    So all is well

    at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.

    Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.

    However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.

    I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
    Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.

    1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.

    I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
    You almost sound jubilant.

    Do you think the relatives of all those who die as a result of the doctor's actions will be so chipper?
    Don't think this is going to end well for the doctors
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739
    antifrank said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.
    While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.
    Really? We are not paying for any aid to any of those countries. Is that really the case? No-one in Europe has any leverage with any of these countries, despite some of them being ex-colonies? Amazing. Where the hell is the aid budget being spent then?
    There are reasons why people are leaving many of these states in large numbers. We would not want to send people back to them.

    We may wish to send them to other states instead. Whether that is practical is an open question.
    There are indeed reasons why they leave those states. They are not necessarily the same reason they then continue through other countries to get to Europe.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    perdix said:

    taffys said:

    So all is well

    at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.

    Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.

    However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.

    I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
    Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.

    1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.

    I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
    Methinks that the BMA wanted to provoke a strike by refusing to negotiate.


    The BMA have been trying to negotiate for a year. Hunt refused to even explain the content of the contract or discuss safety measures. It was when he threatened imposition that the ballot was called.

    On the eve of the ballot he made an offer by press release to his friends in the Murdoch media. He has never attempted to negotiate. He has provoked this strike (the ballot closes on Wed 18th) but I will be astonished if the juniors blink. I have not met one yet who is willing to cave in.

    Hunt has a real battle coming. The Senior doctors are not going to pull Hunts nuts out of the fire.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    antifrank said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.
    While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.
    Really? We are not paying for any aid to any of those countries. Is that really the case? No-one in Europe has any leverage with any of these countries, despite some of them being ex-colonies? Amazing. Where the hell is the aid budget being spent then?
    There are reasons why people are leaving many of these states in large numbers. We would not want to send people back to them.

    We may wish to send them to other states instead. Whether that is practical is an open question.
    I understand why they want to leave. But just because they want to come here does not mean we are obliged to accept them. We cannot be a refuge for the population of every single shithole country in the world. We simply can't. And if we were, Europe - the very Europe which is the attraction - would be destroyed.

    So the question is who is let in and the numbers. And the rest will need to be shut out. That may sound brutal and blunt. But it's no more brutal than encouraging people to risk their lives coming here. And - bluntly - European governments owe their primary duty to their own citizens not to everyone else in the world.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739
    edited 2015 12
    Bugger - beaten to it by Antifrank
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,184

    Cyclefree said:

    MTimT said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.
    While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.
    Indeed, for anyone to have influence with a State, there has to be a state.
    If there is no state, who is doing the refusing then?
    Has any government anywhere successfully deported to these places? I remember a year or so we deported the Libyan army who were training in Cambridge, following sex attacks.

    I think only a very brutal approach could reverse the flow. Life is pretty awful in most of these places.

    The measures required are not going to be possible in any democratic society.
    I worry about winter.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,741
    edited 2015 12
    antifrank said:

    @suttonnick: Friday's Independent front page: Exclusive - Corbyn steals a march on Labour plotters
    #tomorrowspaperstoday https://t.co/j7MHKW6yeY

    As predicted in some quarters, Jeremy Corbyn is looking to change the rule book on leadership elections to his advantage.

    I'm not a Corbyn supporter but it would surely be totally farcical if he was challenged and couldn't then stand in the resulting leadership election.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    watford30 said:

    taffys said:

    So all is well

    at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.

    Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.

    However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.

    I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
    Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.

    1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.

    I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
    You almost sound jubilant.

    Do you think the relatives of all those who die as a result of the doctor's actions will be so chipper?
    Don't think this is going to end well for the doctors
    Any public sympathy and support will evaporate faster than a puddle in the Sahara when more patients start dying, as a direct result of strike action.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    watford30 said:

    taffys said:

    So all is well

    at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.

    Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.

    However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.

    I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
    Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.

    1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.

    I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
    You almost sound jubilant.

    Do you think the relatives of all those who die as a result of the doctor's actions will be so chipper?
    I doubt it'll make much difference to mortality rates. The medical profession is highly overrated, they do about as much harm as they do good.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    watford30 said:

    taffys said:

    So all is well

    at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.

    Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.

    However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.

    I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
    Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.

    1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.

    I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
    You almost sound jubilant.

    Do you think the relatives of all those who die as a result of the doctor's actions will be so chipper?
    Playing politics with people's lives
    Jeremy Hunt is doing exactly that.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    perdix said:

    taffys said:

    So all is well

    at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.

    Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.

    However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.

    I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
    Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.

    1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.

    I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
    Methinks that the BMA wanted to provoke a strike by refusing to negotiate.


    The BMA have been trying to negotiate for a year. Hunt refused to even explain the content of the contract or discuss safety measures. It was when he threatened imposition that the ballot was called.

    On the eve of the ballot he made an offer by press release to his friends in the Murdoch media. He has never attempted to negotiate. He has provoked this strike (the ballot closes on Wed 18th) but I will be astonished if the juniors blink. I have not met one yet who is willing to cave in.

    Hunt has a real battle coming. The Senior doctors are not going to pull Hunts nuts out of the fire.
    How many extra patients do you expect to die as a result of your strike action?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,266

    perdix said:

    taffys said:

    So all is well

    at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.

    Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.

    However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.

    I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
    Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.

    1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.

    I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
    Methinks that the BMA wanted to provoke a strike by refusing to negotiate.


    The BMA have been trying to negotiate for a year. Hunt refused to even explain the content of the contract or discuss safety measures. It was when he threatened imposition that the ballot was called.

    On the eve of the ballot he made an offer by press release to his friends in the Murdoch media. He has never attempted to negotiate. He has provoked this strike (the ballot closes on Wed 18th) but I will be astonished if the juniors blink. I have not met one yet who is willing to cave in.

    Hunt has a real battle coming. The Senior doctors are not going to pull Hunts nuts out of the fire.
    Hasn't the leader of the Junior Doctors got a wedding photography business that he actively participates in at weekends.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Cyclefree said:

    antifrank said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.
    While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.
    Really? We are not paying for any aid to any of those countries. Is that really the case? No-one in Europe has any leverage with any of these countries, despite some of them being ex-colonies? Amazing. Where the hell is the aid budget being spent then?
    There are reasons why people are leaving many of these states in large numbers. We would not want to send people back to them.

    We may wish to send them to other states instead. Whether that is practical is an open question.
    I understand why they want to leave. But just because they want to come here does not mean we are obliged to accept them. We cannot be a refuge for the population of every single shithole country in the world. We simply can't. And if we were, Europe - the very Europe which is the attraction - would be destroyed.

    So the question is who is let in and the numbers. And the rest will need to be shut out. That may sound brutal and blunt. But it's no more brutal than encouraging people to risk their lives coming here. And - bluntly - European governments owe their primary duty to their own citizens not to everyone else in the world.
    They're entitled to refuge. Whether they get it here is a different matter.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Fraser Nelson in the Telegraph:

    "How Sweden, the most open country in the world, was overwhelmed by migrants
    Sweden used to pride itself on giving a warm welcome to outsiders. But as the refugee crisis grows, so too does its sense of injustice"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/11992479/How-Sweden-the-most-open-country-in-the-world-was-overwhelmed-by-migrants.html
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548

    Cyclefree said:

    MTimT said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.
    While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.
    Indeed, for anyone to have influence with a State, there has to be a state.
    If there is no state, who is doing the refusing then?
    Has any government anywhere successfully deported to these places? I remember a year or so we deported the Libyan army who were training in Cambridge, following sex attacks.

    I think only a very brutal approach could reverse the flow. Life is pretty awful in most of these places.

    The measures required are not going to be possible in any democratic society.
    What do you think is going to happen to our democratic societies if unlimited numbers of desperate people from vastly different cultures and countries ridden with war and extremism are allowed in?
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited 2015 12

    watford30 said:

    taffys said:

    So all is well

    at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.

    Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.

    However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.

    I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
    Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.

    1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.

    I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
    You almost sound jubilant.

    Do you think the relatives of all those who die as a result of the doctor's actions will be so chipper?
    I doubt it'll make much difference to mortality rates. The medical profession is highly overrated, they do about as much harm as they do good.
    I know. NHS ones came within a whisker of killing a close relative within the last month. Without private healthcare intervention that person wouldn't be alive.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739
    Labour are under pressure to distance themselves from a slur on our serving soldiers by their own Director of Communications, SunNation can reveal.

    High-flying Tory MP and former soldier Thomas Tugendhat has written an impassioned letter to Jeremy Corbyn demanding the Labour leader condemn Seamus Milne after we reported the top aide’s shocking views on our Armed Forces.

    Mr Tugendhat wrote tonight: “You have spoken eloquently about wanting to see a ‘kinder politics’ and I welcome this. This is your opportunity to lead by example.”

    He added: “As the leader of the Labour Party and Her Majesty’s Opposition, I urge you to consider the implication of having people on your team whose views support violent extremists rather than democrats.

    “I hope you will take this opportunity to condemn Mr Milne’s remarks. To stay silent would be wrong and may be seen as endorsing the views of those who choose violence instead of political debate.”

    http://bit.ly/1PECzWY
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    perdix said:

    taffys said:

    So all is well

    at this difficult time for patients Mr Owls you will doubtless be appalled by recent revelations of the naked greed of many senior NHS bosses.

    Well I thought Tories understood market forces as Mr Sox said.

    However it is ridiculous that the NHS is paying some bosses excessive sums.

    I have had many offers to work at upwards of triple NHS rates including one of £600 a day, never taken them always worked for NHS rates.
    Interesting email from the BMA today, they seem to have finally found their backbone.

    1st Dec is emergency cover only, 8th Dec and 16th Dec will be all out. There were instructions for us non-striking grades too.

    I think that like Scargill Mr Hunt has chosen a poor moment to provoke a strike.
    Methinks that the BMA wanted to provoke a strike by refusing to negotiate.


    The BMA have been trying to negotiate for a year. Hunt refused to even explain the content of the contract or discuss safety measures. It was when he threatened imposition that the ballot was called.

    On the eve of the ballot he made an offer by press release to his friends in the Murdoch media. He has never attempted to negotiate. He has provoked this strike (the ballot closes on Wed 18th) but I will be astonished if the juniors blink. I have not met one yet who is willing to cave in.

    Hunt has a real battle coming. The Senior doctors are not going to pull Hunts nuts out of the fire.
    Hasn't the leader of the Junior Doctors got a wedding photography business that he actively participates in at weekends.
    Yes.

    'The leader of the junior doctors has every reason to want to avoid Saturday work – he runs a wedding photography business on the side.
    Johann Malawana, 35, who chairs the BMA's junior doctors committee, offers 'Gold', 'Platinum' and 'Diamond' packages – and a special discount where one of the couple works for the NHS.


    www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3308843/What-want-No-work-Saturdays-m-weekend-wedding-photographer-says-leader-junior-doctors.html#ixzz3rJkCXfwm
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    antifrank said:

    Cyclefree said:

    antifrank said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    I

    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.
    While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.
    Really? We are not paying for any aid to any of those countries. Is that really the case? No-one in Europe has any leverage with any of these countries, despite some of them being ex-colonies? Amazing. Where the hell is the aid budget being spent then?
    There are reasons why people are leaving many of these states in large numbers. We would not want to send people back to them.

    We may wish to send them to other states instead. Whether that is practical is an open question.
    I understand why they want to leave. But just because they want to come here does not mean we are obliged to accept them. We cannot be a refuge for the population of every single shithole country in the world. We simply can't. And if we were, Europe - the very Europe which is the attraction - would be destroyed.

    So the question is who is let in and the numbers. And the rest will need to be shut out. That may sound brutal and blunt. But it's no more brutal than encouraging people to risk their lives coming here. And - bluntly - European governments owe their primary duty to their own citizens not to everyone else in the world.
    They're entitled to refuge. Whether they get it here is a different matter.
    Some of them may be refugees. Others plainly aren't and are entitled to nothing. Though they may want lots of things. "I want doesn't get" as my mother told me.

    But if the number of refugees - even within the terms of the 1951 Convention - are overwhelming, then I think we may have to think the unthinkable and simply say that we can no longer operate under that regime. That even for genuine refugees there will have to be a numerical limit.

    Or other countries - in Asia, Australasia, the US, South America, China - will have to take them. And how likely is that, do you suppose?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,360
    The Last Panthers looks to be a classy piece of TV. Yet again, SKY getting the good stuff...
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited 2015 12

    Poles demonstrating and burning the EU flag, chaos in Malta, Portugal shifting to left anti-austerity, Sweden introducing border controls, razor wire going up across the Balkans, and UK referendum. Does anyone agree that the EU will comprehensively fail long before the UK referendum creating an unstoppable move by all the EU countries for their own sovereignty.

    If it does it would save us a lot of money. Holding a referendum is pretty expensive.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,876
    antifrank said:

    Cyclefree said:

    antifrank said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    I wonder how much wine and expensive food was wasted at the "summit" in Malta. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that absolutely nothing was achieved today. But at least out of touch bureaucrats and politicians had a good time.

    Perhaps you could reveal your simple solution to a complex problem, I am sure sensible solutions are eagerly awaited.

    "I would not start from here" is not a useful way to begin!
    Large scale enforced repatriation.
    Refusal to accept any more migrants
    Increase the number of refugees being taken from the camps in Turkey and Jordan so people know they gave more chance of resettlement if they stay where they are than if they try to make the journey.

    None of it is easy nor nice but right now Merkel's policy is killing more people. Just as we said it would.
    Repatriation is difficult when countries refuse to take returners.
    I am sure with all that "influence" the EU has they will be able to work something out. It would most probably be easier if Mandelson did not embark on a campaign of bullying and intimidating Africa.
    While we have possible leverage with some african countries we have very little with Libya, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan and Eritrea. These are places where many originate.
    Really? We are not
    There are reasons why people are leaving many of these states in large numbers. We would not want to send people back to them.

    We may wish to send them to other states instead. Whether that is practical is an open question.
    I understand why they want to leave. But just because they want to come here does not mean we are obliged to accept them. We cannot be a refuge for the population of every single shithole country in the world. We simply can't. And if we were, Europe - the very Europe which is the attraction - would be destroyed.

    So the question is who is let in and the numbers. And the rest will need to be shut out. That may sound brutal and blunt. But it's no more brutal than encouraging people to risk their lives coming here. And - bluntly - European governments owe their primary duty to their own citizens not to everyone else in the world.
    They're entitled to refuge. Whether they get it here is a different matter.
    Much of the world's population is entitled to refuge. Whether that promise is fufillable is debatable.
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