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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A Labour man in a Labour job. What’s not to like about Andr

SystemSystem Posts: 11,825
edited October 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A Labour man in a Labour job. What’s not to like about Andrew Adonis?

The Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell likes to get away from politics by sailing his little Skipper 17 trailer sailer on the Norfolk Broads, he told the Eastern Daily Press.  McDonnell was brought up in Great Yarmouth where the three Broads rivers enter the sea. Like all lovers of Broads sailing he will know that the worst part of the experience has been getting there.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    First ..... again!
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,306

    First ..... again!

    I could have been first, but I simply chose not to be.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,101
    Third! Like Labour in Scotland...;-)
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,101
    And for once, an article from Mr Brind I am in broad agreement with.....let's hope Mr Corbyn pays no heed, but Mr Osborne does.....fine words butter no parsnips, nor build roads, railways nor houses.....
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,521
    "Osborne does not want to borrow for capital spending even though he could raise the money at bargain interest rates.”

    I think this has been discussed at length on here, but it's worth pointing out that those bargain interest rates are only a bargain because the market supports the Government's (wait for it!) long term economic plan.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Ah the Friday Ostrich post.

    Yes there are opportunities for Labour - there alway are for oppositions - but the Labour front bench is inept, disorganised, split and incapable.

    They will be too busy focussing on tweets, niche issues and deselections.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Of course Corbyn doesn't get it, he hasn't got it for 30 years. If he got it he wouldn't pretend he's too busy to meet the Queen. Mr Brind writes well and I'm sure he's a decent man but he's peeing in the wind with this article.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,418
    Another bit of East Anglian roadbuilding which is long overdue is the upgarding of the A120 between Braintree and the A12. Stansted to Braintree it’s an excellent dual cariageway, with Harwich bound lorries travelling along happily. After that it goes down to a single tracj, opne lane each way and said lorries, along with the fairly heavy local traffic piles up in long queues and frequent incidents.
    The traffic then joins the A12 for a while, which there is OK, then back onto the 120, but by then there; are fewer “local” vehicles.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294
    What I dislike about Don Brind's posts is how he still seems to be acting as Labour's press officer: much of the content is partisan political attack, not betting insight.

    FWIW, I disagree. I think this government has a fantastic record on infrastructure. Better roads, trains and communications is a fundamental part of the Long-Term Economic Plan - public investment in infrastructure, as a % GDP, will be higher this decade under this government than the whole period of the last Labour government:

    https://www.conservatives.com/manifesto

    My industry sector is booming and there will be too much work to do until 2030.. at least. The problem in even achieving what we do have already committed to do 'on time' isn't the money, it's the talent, resource and skills in the construction and project management industry.
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    Of course Corbyn doesn't get it, he hasn't got it for 30 years. If he got it he wouldn't pretend he's too busy to meet the Queen. Mr Brind writes well and I'm sure he's a decent man but he's peeing in the wind with this article.

    Adonis started in the SDP and was persuaded to join Labour by Blair. Or to put it more accurately, Blair and Adonis adopted Tory policies in order to become electable. Remember that the Tories are always in power, Labour is only ever in office - a truth to which Labour's members have finally woken up to.

    Therefore, I don't expect Corbyn's Labour to do much electoral campaigning.

    Still, it's important that such as Carlotta and Plato keep posting links to the Daily Wail - not much else is going to keep the likes of Brind out of the Tory Party...

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    So we have a cross party group including people from Con, Lab and UKIP launching today Vote to Leave.
    Then there is Farage and UKIPs one party LEAVE.EU. Farage justified the reason for LEAVE.EU because no other group advocated leaving and the group Carswell supported was not BOO. Now that reason has been removed, will Farage end his backing of LEAVE.EU to unite in one group? Sadly no.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,786
    I'd have a bit more sympathy with this article if it didn't utterly ignore what Labour did (or did not) do during their time in power.

    Infrastructure investment outside of schools and hospitals was dire, and when they did try new ideas they came up with hideous ideas such as the Pathfinder scheme for housing.

    As an example: it is generally acknowledged that the best way of upgrading a basic railway line is to electrify it. Both Thatcher and Major's governments electrified hundreds of miles of line: the ECML, the GEML, Bedford, King's Lynn, Heathrow and others. During Blair and Brown's thirteen years, they electrified (from memory) eight miles of line through Stoke.

    Thirteen wasted years.

    Oh, and It'd be good if Mr Brind had the name of the head of Miliband's secretive commission correct: it is "Sir John Armitt", not "Sir John Amrit" His report can be found here:
    http://www.armittreview.org/

    It's also about ambition. Take the 'Northern Powerhouse', which is an utterly positive message. The north can rise again. The north can compete. We will give you the powers and build the infrastructure you need.

    What was Labour's message to the north?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294
    For those that missed it last night - link to Vote Leave:

    http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/
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    Don Brind writes an interesting article about what Labour could do but ignores the reality inside his Labour party. Labour are on a death march and Don wants to talk about the scenery and a need to visit interesting places along the way.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294

    I'd have a bit more sympathy with this article if it didn't utterly ignore what Labour did (or did not) do during their time in power.

    Infrastructure investment outside of schools and hospitals was dire, and when they did try new ideas they came up with hideous ideas such as the Pathfinder scheme for housing.

    As an example: it is generally acknowledged that the best way of upgrading a basic railway line is to electrify it. Both Thatcher and Major's governments electrified hundreds of miles of line: the ECML, the GEML, Bedford, King's Lynn, Heathrow and others. During Blair and Brown's thirteen years, they electrified (from memory) eight miles of line through Stoke.

    Thirteen wasted years.

    Oh, and It'd be good if Mr Brind had the name of the head of Miliband's secretive commission correct: it is "Sir John Armitt", not "Sir John Amrit" His report can be found here:
    http://www.armittreview.org/

    It's also about ambition. Take the 'Northern Powerhouse', which is an utterly positive message. The north can rise again. The north can compete. We will give you the powers and build the infrastructure you need.

    What was Labour's message to the north?

    Labour did jack shit on energy, power stations and airports too.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,286
    @Casino_Royale What's your industry ?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294
    Pulpstar said:

    @Casino_Royale What's your industry ?

    Construction and infrastructure.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,511
    "Steve Richards underlines the gap between Osborne’s ambition and his budget plans. “It does not cost very much money to hire Lord Adonis to run an Infrastructure Commission, but it is very expensive to build infrastructure"

    Typical Labour thinking. How much did all those railways in the 19th century cost the government?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,286

    Pulpstar said:

    @Casino_Royale What's your industry ?

    Construction and infrastructure.
    I'm involved with some bridging finance deals relating to that. Give me a heads up if the bubble is ever about to burst ;)
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,101


    What was Labour's message to the north?

    "HOW DARE YOU COOPERATE WITH THE TORIES!"

    "Why don't you just [REDACTED] [REDACTED] [REDACTED] [REDACTED] you stupid little [REDACTED] [REDACTED] "

    Balls to Northern Mayor......
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DAaronovitch: Just heard Jim Naughtie on @BBCr4today say they wanted to ask @tom_watson on this am 'but could not contact him'. Which is amazing really.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,392
    edited October 2015

    "Steve Richards underlines the gap between Osborne’s ambition and his budget plans. “It does not cost very much money to hire Lord Adonis to run an Infrastructure Commission, but it is very expensive to build infrastructure"

    Typical Labour thinking. How much did all those railways in the 19th century cost the government?

    The price of the Board of Trade Railways Inspectorate.

    On the other hand, as very few railways ever paid dividends, it could be argued that it lost money via taxes that would have been paid had more financially attractive options been taken. (This is of course one reason why outside Britain the vast majority of railways were built with government aid.)

    That being said, as they fuelled rapid economic growth, it could be argued such things were paid for in other ways and by other industries, especially coal.
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    "Steve Richards underlines the gap between Osborne’s ambition and his budget plans. “It does not cost very much money to hire Lord Adonis to run an Infrastructure Commission, but it is very expensive to build infrastructure"

    Typical Labour thinking. How much did all those railways in the 19th century cost the government?

    We are not living in the 19th century. And, yes, even then - before Labour was invented - governments built railways they knew would never make money. They were designed and built to remove the population they "served" to America.

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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,667
    Scott_P said:

    @DAaronovitch: Just heard Jim Naughtie on @BBCr4today say they wanted to ask @tom_watson on this am 'but could not contact him'. Which is amazing really.

    The Labour Party is on holiday today....
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    ydoethur said:

    "Steve Richards underlines the gap between Osborne’s ambition and his budget plans. “It does not cost very much money to hire Lord Adonis to run an Infrastructure Commission, but it is very expensive to build infrastructure"

    Typical Labour thinking. How much did all those railways in the 19th century cost the government?

    The price of the Board of Trade Railways Inspectorate.

    On the other hand, as very few railways ever paid dividends, it could be argued that it lost money via taxes that would have been paid had more financially attractive options been taken. (This is of course one reason why outside Britain the vast majority of railways were built with government aid.)

    That being said, as they fuelled rapid economic growth, it could be argued such things were paid for in other ways and by other industries, especially coal.
    Indeed. If you are not selling to the final consumer (and infrastructure almost never is - toll roads are an exception, in part, at least) you will engage in transfer pricing, capturing part of your customer's profit for yourself. Capitalism is a sophisticated form of fraud, after all.

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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Casino_Royale What's your industry ?

    Construction and infrastructure.
    I'm involved with some bridging finance deals relating to that. Give me a heads up if the bubble is ever about to burst ;)
    Will do ;-)
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,667

    So we have a cross party group including people from Con, Lab and UKIP launching today Vote to Leave.
    Then there is Farage and UKIPs one party LEAVE.EU. Farage justified the reason for LEAVE.EU because no other group advocated leaving and the group Carswell supported was not BOO. Now that reason has been removed, will Farage end his backing of LEAVE.EU to unite in one group? Sadly no.

    Farage, party of one, your table is ready....

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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,511

    Of course Corbyn doesn't get it, he hasn't got it for 30 years. If he got it he wouldn't pretend he's too busy to meet the Queen. Mr Brind writes well and I'm sure he's a decent man but he's peeing in the wind with this article.

    What he doesn't get (or perhaps what he does get but doesn't want to address, either because he doesn't think it's important or because it contradicts his type of politics), is how his choices and actions are reinforcing the existing and negative impression of him.

    Cameron could skip meetings of the Privy Council when he was first LotO because there was no question about where his position was on the monarchy or indeed, on Britain and Britishness in general. Corbyn has not earned that luxury. He might want to brush off attacks on him as 'personal' when they address his record and policy stance but that again misunderstands the game he's now in. Trivialities build a picture of a person (and not all the matters in question are trivialities), and that picture is very powerful in moulding public opinion.

    Corbyn knows this. He was happy enough doing it when he engaged in PR stunts he knew would outrage and scandalise. I suspect he enjoyed the fact that it did. But he's no longer at liberty to follow his own campaigns on the fringes and cannot continue as a free spirit.

    Labour can try and take credit for the appointment and the plan. That's fair enough. I don't think it will work particularly because the public are more prone to credit those who deliver rather than those who plan but they're welcome to try, and they're welcome to attack gaps in the plan - that's what oppositions should do. But whether or not they do, it won't change public perceptions of Corbyn and by extension, today's Labour, which are being built on a different level.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,392

    ydoethur said:

    "Steve Richards underlines the gap between Osborne’s ambition and his budget plans. “It does not cost very much money to hire Lord Adonis to run an Infrastructure Commission, but it is very expensive to build infrastructure"

    Typical Labour thinking. How much did all those railways in the 19th century cost the government?

    The price of the Board of Trade Railways Inspectorate.

    On the other hand, as very few railways ever paid dividends, it could be argued that it lost money via taxes that would have been paid had more financially attractive options been taken. (This is of course one reason why outside Britain the vast majority of railways were built with government aid.)

    That being said, as they fuelled rapid economic growth, it could be argued such things were paid for in other ways and by other industries, especially coal.
    Indeed. If you are not selling to the final consumer (and infrastructure almost never is - toll roads are an exception, in part, at least) you will engage in transfer pricing, capturing part of your customer's profit for yourself. Capitalism is a sophisticated form of fraud, after all.

    Well, possibly. But one reason why the railways struggled to make profits was partly because they were somewhat over-regulated. For example, no distinction was made (except a partial one under the Light Railways Act) between small rural branch lines and huge, busy main lines. So the Leadon Valley line from Gloucester to Ledbury, worked by an early diesel railcar from the 1930s until closure because there were hardly any passengers, was forced to comply with the same safety features regarding signalling, track maintenance, platform provision and security as the WCML. That naturally pushed overheads up to an impossible figure and the line became financially unviable, kept alive only by the stubborn refusal of the Great Western to close it because Abandonment Orders were even more expensive (after nationalisation, it was culled rather quickly - it didn't make it to Beeching).

    So here, the government shot itself in the foot somewhat. A looser regulatory framework might have made it a lot more money and, ironically, by keeping the huge network of lightly-used lines open, saved many thousands of lives.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 59,414
    Morning all,

    So we have a cross party group including people from Con, Lab and UKIP launching today Vote to Leave.
    Then there is Farage and UKIPs one party LEAVE.EU. Farage justified the reason for LEAVE.EU because no other group advocated leaving and the group Carswell supported was not BOO. Now that reason has been removed, will Farage end his backing of LEAVE.EU to unite in one group? Sadly no.

    Farage, party of one, your table is ready....

    Morning all,

    It may all turn out to be irrelevant. I can foresee a situation where Cameron postpones an EU vote next year because of escalating war in Syria into which we have been dragged by Russian intervention.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,511
    ydoethur said:

    "Steve Richards underlines the gap between Osborne’s ambition and his budget plans. “It does not cost very much money to hire Lord Adonis to run an Infrastructure Commission, but it is very expensive to build infrastructure"

    Typical Labour thinking. How much did all those railways in the 19th century cost the government?

    The price of the Board of Trade Railways Inspectorate.

    On the other hand, as very few railways ever paid dividends, it could be argued that it lost money via taxes that would have been paid had more financially attractive options been taken. (This is of course one reason why outside Britain the vast majority of railways were built with government aid.)

    That being said, as they fuelled rapid economic growth, it could be argued such things were paid for in other ways and by other industries, especially coal.
    True. I was greatly simplifying but the basic point stands, which is that government-only schemes are far from the only model of funding. That said, unless the government is capable of driving a far better deal this time, PFI-style initiatives should be ruled out before the start.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,786
    ydoethur said:

    "Steve Richards underlines the gap between Osborne’s ambition and his budget plans. “It does not cost very much money to hire Lord Adonis to run an Infrastructure Commission, but it is very expensive to build infrastructure"

    Typical Labour thinking. How much did all those railways in the 19th century cost the government?

    The price of the Board of Trade Railways Inspectorate.

    On the other hand, as very few railways ever paid dividends, it could be argued that it lost money via taxes that would have been paid had more financially attractive options been taken. (This is of course one reason why outside Britain the vast majority of railways were built with government aid.)

    That being said, as they fuelled rapid economic growth, it could be argued such things were paid for in other ways and by other industries, especially coal.
    Many investors, particularly in the two railway bubbles, lost their shirts. But the country as a whole has benefited from those losses many times over.

    ISTR reading somewhere that the Great Central from London to Sheffield - Britain's last main line - never made any money. Which was one reason it was closed.
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    Don is right that the Tories are creating many hostages to fortune. Or would be in normal circumstances. Tax credits, housing, the Northern powerhouse, infrastructure, the living wage and immigration are all areas in which the rhetoric could well turn out to be very different to the reality. However, in choosing an unelectable leader Labour has - irresponsibly and self-indulgently - given the Tories a free ticket. Short of an unprecedented economic catastrophe or some other highly improbable development, as long as the Corbyn left are in charge a Labour victory in 2020 is impossible. The Tories even have the space now to have a humdinger of a row over Europe. The Labour party has denied the country a serious opposition. It is unforgiveable.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,160
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: P1 starts in about 7 minutes. Keep an eye on Mercedes' mood music.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,392

    Don is right that the Tories are creating many hostages to fortune. Or would be in normal circumstances. Tax credits, housing, the Northern powerhouse, infrastructure, the living wage and immigration are all areas in which the rhetoric could well turn out to be very different to the reality. However, in choosing an unelectable leader Labour has - irresponsibly and self-indulgently - given the Tories a free ticket. Short of an unprecedented economic catastrophe or some other highly improbable development, as long as the Corbyn left are in charge a Labour victory in 2020 is impossible. The Tories even have the space now to have a humdinger of a row over Europe. The Labour party has denied the country a serious opposition. It is unforgiveable.

    It is even more unforgiveable that many of them still seem to think that they have done the country a failure by given us 'an alternative' to Cameron and Osborne. It is as if somebody has set fire to your house as part of a misconceived protest against their own rent, and then compounds matters by expecting you to be grateful.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,160
    edited October 2015
    F1: ahem. And the start has been delayed by 30 minutes.

    Edited extra bit: delayed due to diesel on the track. Session will be full-length, not curtailed.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,392

    ydoethur said:

    "Steve Richards underlines the gap between Osborne’s ambition and his budget plans. “It does not cost very much money to hire Lord Adonis to run an Infrastructure Commission, but it is very expensive to build infrastructure"

    Typical Labour thinking. How much did all those railways in the 19th century cost the government?

    The price of the Board of Trade Railways Inspectorate.

    On the other hand, as very few railways ever paid dividends, it could be argued that it lost money via taxes that would have been paid had more financially attractive options been taken. (This is of course one reason why outside Britain the vast majority of railways were built with government aid.)

    That being said, as they fuelled rapid economic growth, it could be argued such things were paid for in other ways and by other industries, especially coal.
    Many investors, particularly in the two railway bubbles, lost their shirts. But the country as a whole has benefited from those losses many times over.

    ISTR reading somewhere that the Great Central from London to Sheffield - Britain's last main line - never made any money. Which was one reason it was closed.
    No, it didn't. Jack Simmons called it 'a dinosaur', because it replicated about five existing lines but was built and maintained to a much higher standard than any of them. It simply represented an empire building mentality on the part of the Manchester, Sheffield and Lincoln's chairman, nothing more - and it pretty much ruined the company.

    With that I am off to work. Have a good day.
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    Don is right that the Tories are creating many hostages to fortune. Or would be in normal circumstances. Tax credits, housing, the Northern powerhouse, infrastructure, the living wage and immigration are all areas in which the rhetoric could well turn out to be very different to the reality. However, in choosing an unelectable leader Labour has - irresponsibly and self-indulgently - given the Tories a free ticket. Short of an unprecedented economic catastrophe or some other highly improbable development, as long as the Corbyn left are in charge a Labour victory in 2020 is impossible. The Tories even have the space now to have a humdinger of a row over Europe. The Labour party has denied the country a serious opposition. It is unforgiveable.

    Who would be a "serious opposition"? Nigel Farage? The "centre left" clearly has minimal support in the country, being simply a vehicle for a few hundred careerists, whichever flag they fly under.

    Indeed, I am beginning to think that not only the Labour Party but parliamentary democracy itself is an idea whose time has gone.

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    Osborne is going to have to do a U Turn of sorts, at least, on the tax credit cuts. They are a real and present danger to his ambitions.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 59,414
    Off topic:

    The moment of choice comes for Biden. He is running out of time to get on the ballots according to Democrat party organizers:

    http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/a-new-clue-suggests-biden-may-run

    I'm on at 12/1
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 59,414

    Osborne is going to have to do a U Turn of sorts, at least, on the tax credit cuts. They are a real and present danger to his ambitions.

    I agree. Its a disaster waiting to happen not to phase them in somehow.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,160
    F1: ahem, the session *will* be curtailed.

    Anyway, the circuit's quite like Australia, so that may help McLaren, but they're probably so far off the pace it won't matter.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,411
    Generally grouchy response from Tories to this sensible article, summarised as "We do too care about infrastructure" and "You lot weren't any better anyway". It's certainly true that one of the few identifiable strategic differences at the election was that Osborne wasn't willing to borrow to invest and Balls was. Whatever the merits of that, it certainly gives a basis for questioning where the money for the infrastructure body will come from: we are being offered sizzle rather than steak, and the pundits who liked Cameron's speech also queried how the pleasant words would actually be translated into reality.

    I see no reason to criticise Adonis for taking the job, but pointing out the apparent lack of serious backing for it is legitimate. If we're proved right and Adonis resigns in frustration three years from now, that'll be politically relevant. If the Government proves us wrong by stumping up for the investment after all, that's fine too, in the national interest.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Brilliant front page in The Times...two lead stories encapsulated by the centre page picture
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    People make up their minds about leaders pretty quickly and Corbyn has laid out his stall from past and recent pronouncents. Any attempt to move to the centre is unlikely to gain much traction.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,286

    Off topic:

    The moment of choice comes for Biden. He is running out of time to get on the ballots according to Democrat party organizers:

    http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/a-new-clue-suggests-biden-may-run

    I'm on at 12/1

    If that's for the nomination, it's a great bet. If it's for the presidency it's still ok.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,554

    Morning all,

    So we have a cross party group including people from Con, Lab and UKIP launching today Vote to Leave.
    Then there is Farage and UKIPs one party LEAVE.EU. Farage justified the reason for LEAVE.EU because no other group advocated leaving and the group Carswell supported was not BOO. Now that reason has been removed, will Farage end his backing of LEAVE.EU to unite in one group? Sadly no.

    Farage, party of one, your table is ready....

    Morning all,

    It may all turn out to be irrelevant. I can foresee a situation where Cameron postpones an EU vote next year because of escalating war in Syria into which we have been dragged by Russian intervention.
    Will be looking for any excuse for sure
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,917

    Don is right that the Tories are creating many hostages to fortune. Or would be in normal circumstances. Tax credits, housing, the Northern powerhouse, infrastructure, the living wage and immigration are all areas in which the rhetoric could well turn out to be very different to the reality. However, in choosing an unelectable leader Labour has - irresponsibly and self-indulgently - given the Tories a free ticket. Short of an unprecedented economic catastrophe or some other highly improbable development, as long as the Corbyn left are in charge a Labour victory in 2020 is impossible. The Tories even have the space now to have a humdinger of a row over Europe. The Labour party has denied the country a serious opposition. It is unforgiveable.

    If they fail to deliver on some, most of those promises they still may win in 2020 but it will be their 1992. By 2025 they will be exhausted, the country will be tired of them (deja vu all over again, anyone) and the donkey will win.

    Where the game has changed is that the donkey actually this time might be a super-left wing party so even a tired, intellectually bankrupt Cons party may push the timing out one more electoral cycle to 2030. Imagine that.

    However, if they do deliver, then imagine that also - power without limit. And that scenario is one I'm sure occupying everyone at CCHQ. It's not that they won't win in 2020, it's that they might govern for the foreseeable future if they get these promises right and that, if nothing else, might galvanise them into delivery.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Don Brind outlines a very sensible approach for Labour to take on what is undeniably an awkward co-option (if not defection) secured by the Tories. But Labour seem far too preoccupied with other matters at present to follow his advice.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 19,293
    OT. But sort of following Don's musings.......

    I've been pondering why French children are so different from English ones. Visiting art galleries in France you see large parties of young and very young schoolchildren being genuinely fascinated by the art. Not only are they there and interested but very well behaved

    (They also dress in their own clothes more often than not with considerable flair).

    It's so noticable that I googled 'behaviour of French schoolchildren' and apparently it's a well known fact that French children are better behaved than their English counterparts though the reasons seem vague.

    One of the least attractive features of the UK (apart from the weather the chauvinism the obeasity and the philistinism) is the prurience which is much less obvious in France. I wonder whether it's the general desire to repress which was so evident during the Tory Party Conference which is at the heart of it?


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    Generally grouchy response from Tories to this sensible article, summarised as "We do too care about infrastructure" and "You lot weren't any better anyway". It's certainly true that one of the few identifiable strategic differences at the election was that Osborne wasn't willing to borrow to invest and Balls was. Whatever the merits of that, it certainly gives a basis for questioning where the money for the infrastructure body will come from: we are being offered sizzle rather than steak, and the pundits who liked Cameron's speech also queried how the pleasant words would actually be translated into reality.

    I see no reason to criticise Adonis for taking the job, but pointing out the apparent lack of serious backing for it is legitimate. If we're proved right and Adonis resigns in frustration three years from now, that'll be politically relevant. If the Government proves us wrong by stumping up for the investment after all, that's fine too, in the national interest.

    If Adonis resigns in three years time it will not be politically relevant if the Labour party remains in its current state of myopic self-indulgence. One day you will realise this Nick. But I guess it might take a few years and several electoral drubbings. It's extraordinary how those inside the Corbyn bubble can't see how totally irrelevant Labour has become.

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    Roger said:

    OT. But sort of following Don's musings.......

    I've been pondering why French children are so different from English ones. Visiting art galleries in France you see large parties of young and very young schoolchildren being genuinely fascinated by the art. Not only are they there and interested but very well behaved

    (They also dress in their own clothes more often than not with considerable flair).

    It's so noticable that I googled 'behaviour of French schoolchildren' and apparently it's a well known fact that French children are better behaved than their English counterparts though the reasons seem vague.

    One of the least attractive features of the UK (apart from the weather the chauvinism the obeasity and the philistinism) is the prurience which is much less obvious in France. I wonder whether it's the general desire to repress which was so evident during the Tory Party Conference which is at the heart of it?


    You obviously don't see the French schoolkids at play in London!

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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,425

    Generally grouchy response from Tories to this sensible article, summarised as "We do too care about infrastructure" and "You lot weren't any better anyway". It's certainly true that one of the few identifiable strategic differences at the election was that Osborne wasn't willing to borrow to invest and Balls was. Whatever the merits of that, it certainly gives a basis for questioning where the money for the infrastructure body will come from: we are being offered sizzle rather than steak, and the pundits who liked Cameron's speech also queried how the pleasant words would actually be translated into reality.

    I see no reason to criticise Adonis for taking the job, but pointing out the apparent lack of serious backing for it is legitimate. If we're proved right and Adonis resigns in frustration three years from now, that'll be politically relevant. If the Government proves us wrong by stumping up for the investment after all, that's fine too, in the national interest.

    LOL you built no houses, no roads and no airports when in government but you are experts in infrastructure ?

    Total bollocks Nick, you were so bad you make Osborne look good.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,286
    edited October 2015



    LOL you built no houses, no roads and no airports when in government but you are experts in infrastructure ?

    Total bollocks Nick, you were so bad you make Osborne look good.

    Ouch
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @Roger This is something I've long observed and I have a theory. It is based largely on pure prejudice but it has served me well till now.

    English parents indulge their children hugely and have this nonsense belief that every activity from mealtime to trips out should be child-centred. The middle class ones are the worst. There's nothing more soul-destroying than getting on a plane to find that a small child called Oliver or Harriet is behind you. You know it will be alternately screeching and kicking the back of your chair for the entire flight as its parent ineffectually says "oh don't do that darling".

    French parents, while very loving, cut their children absolutely no slack from a very early age on such things like table manners. They involve their children in adult activities rather than making all activities about the children. As a result, French children are commonly charming and very well-behaved.

    I'm not quite sure what goes wrong in adulthood.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,425
    Roger said:

    OT. But sort of following Don's musings.......

    I've been pondering why French children are so different from English ones. Visiting art galleries in France you see large parties of young and very young schoolchildren being genuinely fascinated by the art. Not only are they there and interested but very well behaved

    (They also dress in their own clothes more often than not with considerable flair).

    It's so noticable that I googled 'behaviour of French schoolchildren' and apparently it's a well known fact that French children are better behaved than their English counterparts though the reasons seem vague.

    One of the least attractive features of the UK (apart from the weather the chauvinism the obeasity and the philistinism) is the prurience which is much less obvious in France. I wonder whether it's the general desire to repress which was so evident during the Tory Party Conference which is at the heart of it?


    Roger, many years ago I taught in a french school, believe me they are as vile shits as ours can be.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,233
    'A labour man doing a labour job' - very well put. Last term the soft left policies were aparently the Lib Dem's fault. This term the are a cunning ruse to wrong foot the Labour party. PM trotting out the same hackneyed pro-EU arguments. Between Labour's swing to the left and the Conservative's strategic manoeuvres to the left, the political ground has just been massively shifted leftward. I believe it's what Tory supporters call 'winning'.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,425
    antifrank said:

    @Roger This is something I've long observed and I have a theory. It is based largely on pure prejudice but it has served me well till now.

    English parents indulge their children hugely and have this nonsense belief that every activity from mealtime to trips out should be child-centred. The middle class ones are the worst. There's nothing more soul-destroying than getting on a plane to find that a small child called Oliver or Harriet is behind you. You know it will be alternately screeching and kicking the back of your chair for the entire flight as its parent ineffectually says "oh don't do that darling".

    French parents, while very loving, cut their children absolutely no slack from a very early age on such things like table manners. They involve their children in adult activities rather than making all activities about the children. As a result, French children are commonly charming and very well-behaved.

    I'm not quite sure what goes wrong in adulthood.

    Deluded.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,627
    Seems a sensible enough articles. Labour may well not have done a good job but it doesn't feel the government has either and I'm not very optimistic they will now.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,160
    Mr. Antifrank, many years ago I attended a very small theatre performance (a friend of my mother had the lead), and there was an obnoxious little creature running up and down the aisle, which echoed magnificently, during the performance.

    The temptation to stick my leg out was significant. [I didn't].
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,233

    Morning all,

    So we have a cross party group including people from Con, Lab and UKIP launching today Vote to Leave.
    Then there is Farage and UKIPs one party LEAVE.EU. Farage justified the reason for LEAVE.EU because no other group advocated leaving and the group Carswell supported was not BOO. Now that reason has been removed, will Farage end his backing of LEAVE.EU to unite in one group? Sadly no.

    Farage, party of one, your table is ready....

    Morning all,

    It may all turn out to be irrelevant. I can foresee a situation where Cameron postpones an EU vote next year because of escalating war in Syria into which we have been dragged by Russian intervention.
    Upset at them killing too many Islamists?
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,786

    Generally grouchy response from Tories to this sensible article, summarised as "We do too care about infrastructure" and "You lot weren't any better anyway". It's certainly true that one of the few identifiable strategic differences at the election was that Osborne wasn't willing to borrow to invest and Balls was. Whatever the merits of that, it certainly gives a basis for questioning where the money for the infrastructure body will come from: we are being offered sizzle rather than steak, and the pundits who liked Cameron's speech also queried how the pleasant words would actually be translated into reality.

    I see no reason to criticise Adonis for taking the job, but pointing out the apparent lack of serious backing for it is legitimate. If we're proved right and Adonis resigns in frustration three years from now, that'll be politically relevant. If the Government proves us wrong by stumping up for the investment after all, that's fine too, in the national interest.

    Nick, it's important to point out where people and parties have gone wrong before when looking at their proposed plans for the future. And it is fair to point out that New Labour - which you were firmly part of - were absolutely hopeless wrt infrastructure.

    That's not being grouchy. it's trying to prevent the same mistakes happening again. I can understand why you want to gloss over those mistakes, but ignoring them will undoubtedly damage the country.

    Doing things, as opposed to saying things, is hard. The infrastructure body will probably not cost that much and should just be a few people: the main bodies, helpers, secretaries and lawyers. The real cost will be in what they propose, and that will depend on their terms of reference. If it's anything like Sir John Armitt's proposal AIUI, then all schemes should have a high BCR (*).

    But more importantly, the commission might come up with a joined-up, consistent plan for the country's infrastructure. If it does, then it will be its most vital contribution: replacing the myriad of disjointed and inconsistent schemes that have dominated for the last few decades with a unified one.

    (*) Leaving aside the myriad of problems with BCR's.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,281
    Of course Corbyn does not get it or even want to get it as his whole leadership campaign was based on the premise Labour was not left enough. IDS won a landslide to win the Tory leadership too and fat lot of good it did him
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,411
    antifrank said:

    @Roger This is something I've long observed and I have a theory. It is based largely on pure prejudice but it has served me well till now.

    English parents indulge their children hugely and have this nonsense belief that every activity from mealtime to trips out should be child-centred. The middle class ones are the worst. There's nothing more soul-destroying than getting on a plane to find that a small child called Oliver or Harriet is behind you. You know it will be alternately screeching and kicking the back of your chair for the entire flight as its parent ineffectually says "oh don't do that darling".

    French parents, while very loving, cut their children absolutely no slack from a very early age on such things like table manners. They involve their children in adult activities rather than making all activities about the children. As a result, French children are commonly charming and very well-behaved.

    I'm not quite sure what goes wrong in adulthood.

    Spare the rod, and spoil the child.
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    Mr. Antifrank, many years ago I attended a very small theatre performance (a friend of my mother had the lead), and there was an obnoxious little creature running up and down the aisle, which echoed magnificently, during the performance.

    The temptation to stick my leg out was significant. [I didn't].

    Some badly behaved brats on planes and in a theatre should not be the basis of judgements on millions of kids and their parents, should they?

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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited October 2015

    Morning all,

    So we have a cross party group including people from Con, Lab and UKIP launching today Vote to Leave.
    Then there is Farage and UKIPs one party LEAVE.EU. Farage justified the reason for LEAVE.EU because no other group advocated leaving and the group Carswell supported was not BOO. Now that reason has been removed, will Farage end his backing of LEAVE.EU to unite in one group? Sadly no.

    Farage, party of one, your table is ready....

    Morning all,

    It may all turn out to be irrelevant. I can foresee a situation where Cameron postpones an EU vote next year because of escalating war in Syria into which we have been dragged by Russian intervention.
    Upset at them killing too many Islamists?
    Russia isn't bring picky - they're killing anyone, not just Islamists.

    Collateral damage has always been acceptable to the Kremlin, even on home territory.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,281

    'A labour man doing a labour job' - very well put. Last term the soft left policies were aparently the Lib Dem's fault. This term the are a cunning ruse to wrong foot the Labour party. PM trotting out the same hackneyed pro-EU arguments. Between Labour's swing to the left and the Conservative's strategic manoeuvres to the left, the political ground has just been massively shifted leftward. I believe it's what Tory supporters call 'winning'.

    As opposed to the right-wing leadership of Hague, IDS and Howard which is what Tory supporters call 'losing'
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,233
    https://www.rt.com/news/318074-eu-russia-relations-improve-juncker/

    Juncker says EU Russian relations must improve and Washington can't dictate. The peice quotes the speech directly for those who automatically disbelieve anything sullied by being reported by RT. The views expressed will be of no surprise to those who follow these issues closely. That such a senior figure has had the cojones to say this publicly will.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,411



    If Adonis resigns in three years time it will not be politically relevant if the Labour party remains in its current state of myopic self-indulgence. One day you will realise this Nick. But I guess it might take a few years and several electoral drubbings. It's extraordinary how those inside the Corbyn bubble can't see how totally irrelevant Labour has become.

    Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think there's any doubt that the many hostages to fortune produced by a lifetime on the left of Labour make it difficult for Corbyn. Equally I think many moderates in Labour are quietly surprised that the total meltdown predicted after the initial onslaught hasn't happened: positive suppport for Corbyn remains significantly higher than Ed was managing in the latter years (though Tories think he's terrible), and party polling is around what it was at the election.

    So most moderates, like Don, are giving it a fair try and putting forward constructive suggestions. Your standard reaction (3 times on this thread alone) has become "Aaargh, no, we're all doomed". Give it a rest!
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,160
    Mr. Observer, no, just as Mr. Eagles' horrendous misconceptions should not be taken as indicative of educational standards in the UK :)

    I was just relaying an anecdote relevant to the conversation. Even when I was a (very well-behaved) child I found obnoxious behaviour and indulgent parents irksome in the extreme.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,425
    German integration of asylum seekers going well

    "Asylbewerber suchen sich zunehmend selbst ihren Wohnsitz aus, ziehen in den Zügen die Notbremsen, um einfach auszusteigen, weigern sich, in Busse einzusteigen, es gibt Unruhen bis hin zu Hungerstreiks in den Flüchtlingsheimen, weil das Essen angeblich nicht schmeckt oder nicht so entschieden wird, wie der Asylsuchende es will"

    Asylum seekers are increasingly demanding a home fot themselves, they pull the emergency brakes on trains simply to get off, refuse to get on buses and cause disturbances in the refugee homes right up to hunger strikes because ostensibly they don't like the taste of the food or it's not served they way the the asylumseeker wants.

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/fluechtlingskrise/horst-seehofer-es-gibt-hungerstreiks-in-den-fluechtlingsheimen-13847121.html

    Merkel has a bit of a problem atm
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,667
    edited October 2015
    Sean_F said:

    antifrank said:

    @Roger This is something I've long observed and I have a theory. It is based largely on pure prejudice but it has served me well till now.

    English parents indulge their children hugely and have this nonsense belief that every activity from mealtime to trips out should be child-centred. The middle class ones are the worst. There's nothing more soul-destroying than getting on a plane to find that a small child called Oliver or Harriet is behind you. You know it will be alternately screeching and kicking the back of your chair for the entire flight as its parent ineffectually says "oh don't do that darling".

    French parents, while very loving, cut their children absolutely no slack from a very early age on such things like table manners. They involve their children in adult activities rather than making all activities about the children. As a result, French children are commonly charming and very well-behaved.

    I'm not quite sure what goes wrong in adulthood.

    Spare the rod, and spoil the child.
    Spare the Rod, and spoil your General Election betting portfolio....
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Too busy chillaxing too. Even washing his hair would've been a strenuous activity.

    Of course Corbyn doesn't get it, he hasn't got it for 30 years. If he got it he wouldn't pretend he's too busy to meet the Queen. Mr Brind writes well and I'm sure he's a decent man but he's peeing in the wind with this article.

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,080
    There are many flaws in Don's piece, most of which we have discussed before.

    Firstly, one of the reasons the government can still borrow cheaply despite still having the worst deficit in Europe is that the markets accept that they are serious about addressing it. Borrowing lots of additional "cheap" money would dangerously undermine that.

    Secondly, one of the many major problems left by the Brown disaster is that far too much of our government expenditure goes on current spending. It is just incoherent and irrational to expect the government to spend a lot more on, say, WTC, and on infrastructure. These are choices and the government has chosen correctly.

    Thirdly, after the latest revisals to the GDP figures the argument that austerity somehow reduced growth gets ever more untenable. Growth in the UK has matched that of the US since 2010 and is by far the best in the EU. The idea that it would have been sustainable to borrow even more, drive demand even more and somehow generate additional growth that was somehow going to magically produce the extra tax revenues to pay for it all is just stupid. It is no longer even an arguable position, it is stupid.

    The fact is that the easy tax revenues of the bubble in the City and plentiful north sea oil are gone and they are not coming back. Our deficit was much more structural than was appreciated at the time and is much harder to eliminate as a result. This means real cuts along with tax increases are going to be needed to rebalance our economy onto some sustainable footing. This will not be easy or politically popular but it is absolutely necessary.

    So where does that leave the ambitions of Osborne? If this new body is to have a new budget rather than simply making better use of the old one he will have to bear down even harder on current expenditure to release resources for capital spending. I think there is no doubt that he wants to do that. Whether he finds that politically doable will be an interesting question.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Roger said:

    OT. But sort of following Don's musings.......

    I've been pondering why French children are so different from English ones. Visiting art galleries in France you see large parties of young and very young schoolchildren being genuinely fascinated by the art. Not only are they there and interested but very well behaved

    (They also dress in their own clothes more often than not with considerable flair).

    It's so noticable that I googled 'behaviour of French schoolchildren' and apparently it's a well known fact that French children are better behaved than their English counterparts though the reasons seem vague.

    One of the least attractive features of the UK (apart from the weather the chauvinism the obeasity and the philistinism) is the prurience which is much less obvious in France. I wonder whether it's the general desire to repress which was so evident during the Tory Party Conference which is at the heart of it?


    A friend of mine is a child psychologist (yeah I know) he works with disadvantaged children, he says that British parenting is the worst in Europe where he's worked a great deal. Another friend of mine tweeted recently that he'd seen a group of schoolchildren, all well behaved, no tattoos or iphones, says they must have been French.

    I find walking past a school at 8.30 in the morning thoroughly depressing.

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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited October 2015
    antifrank said:

    @Roger This is something I've long observed and I have a theory. It is based largely on pure prejudice but it has served me well till now.

    English parents indulge their children hugely and have this nonsense belief that every activity from mealtime to trips out should be child-centred. The middle class ones are the worst. There's nothing more soul-destroying than getting on a plane to find that a small child called Oliver or Harriet is behind you. You know it will be alternately screeching and kicking the back of your chair for the entire flight as its parent ineffectually says "oh don't do that darling".

    snip

    They're probably reacting to the loud tutting and huffing from the passenger in front, moaning throughout the flight about the queue at Stansted. Children are good at picking up these things.

    Some children are badly behaved, the majority are not. The latter are the ones who never get noticed in restaurants and planes.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,786
    An anecdote wrt the spoilt children vibe.

    One of my uncles is a doctor, who lectured in a particular science at two universities (as a child I used to see him on OU programs, bedecked in flares). He had two children who are about ten years younger than me.

    When I was in my mid-teens we went to visit them, and the son and daughter ran riot the whole time. For instance the son jumped on the window sill and knocked ornaments off, they'd constantly interrupt, throw toys, etc. During the drive home, my mother said something like: "Both those kids'll end up in prison."

    And it was not a one-off.

    Wind forwards a couple of decades, and the son is now heavily involved with, and doing well for himself in, computers, and the daughter is a marine research scientist.

    Their 'misbehaviour' as kids seems to have made no difference to their prospects. The love their parents gave them did make a difference.

    All kids are individuals, and perhaps the correct parental strategy for each kid might be different as well.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,425

    An anecdote wrt the spoilt children vibe.

    One of my uncles is a doctor, who lectured in a particular science at two universities (as a child I used to see him on OU programs, bedecked in flares). He had two children who are about ten years younger than me.

    When I was in my mid-teens we went to visit them, and the son and daughter ran riot the whole time. For instance the son jumped on the window sill and knocked ornaments off, they'd constantly interrupt, throw toys, etc. During the drive home, my mother said something like: "Both those kids'll end up in prison."

    And it was not a one-off.

    Wind forwards a couple of decades, and the son is now heavily involved with, and doing well for himself in, computers, and the daughter is a marine research scientist.

    Their 'misbehaviour' as kids seems to have made no difference to their prospects. The love their parents gave them did make a difference.

    All kids are individuals, and perhaps the correct parental strategy for each kid might be different as well.

    Ah first time parents :-)
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @JosiasJessop A heartwarming story. But what about all the lives that the little runts disrupted while they were "finding themselves"? Are they not to be taken into consideration also?
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited October 2015

    German integration of asylum seekers going well

    "Asylbewerber suchen sich zunehmend selbst ihren Wohnsitz aus, ziehen in den Zügen die Notbremsen, um einfach auszusteigen, weigern sich, in Busse einzusteigen, es gibt Unruhen bis hin zu Hungerstreiks in den Flüchtlingsheimen, weil das Essen angeblich nicht schmeckt oder nicht so entschieden wird, wie der Asylsuchende es will"

    Asylum seekers are increasingly demanding a home fot themselves, they pull the emergency brakes on trains simply to get off, refuse to get on buses and cause disturbances in the refugee homes right up to hunger strikes because ostensibly they don't like the taste of the food or it's not served they way the the asylumseeker wants.

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/fluechtlingskrise/horst-seehofer-es-gibt-hungerstreiks-in-den-fluechtlingsheimen-13847121.html

    Merkel has a bit of a problem atm

    Good morning all. Well, if you arrive at the land of milk and honey and find that it's not as you thought, then it's disappointing all round.

    Merkel's decision is going to haunt Germany for years. We've had around 1 million net migration this decade. They're doing more than that in a year. The idea that solving a demographic problem via mass immigration is going to be tested to destruction. My view has always been that proponents of that idea are just indulging in a ponzi scheme.

    We have to stop foisting our issues onto our children and grandchildren, whether that's managing finances, dealing with the elderly or infrastructure investment (fuelled by borrowing). As David H. says, less current spending, more capital spending. Not both. If that means higher taxes, then so be it.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    @fitalass pointed out elsewhere that Cameron may have been busy with his new baby girl around that time too.

    My memory for such things is zero.

    Of course Corbyn doesn't get it, he hasn't got it for 30 years. If he got it he wouldn't pretend he's too busy to meet the Queen. Mr Brind writes well and I'm sure he's a decent man but he's peeing in the wind with this article.

    What he doesn't get (or perhaps what he does get but doesn't want to address, either because he doesn't think it's important or because it contradicts his type of politics), is how his choices and actions are reinforcing the existing and negative impression of him.

    Cameron could skip meetings of the Privy Council when he was first LotO because there was no question about where his position was on the monarchy or indeed, on Britain and Britishness in general. Corbyn has not earned that luxury. He might want to brush off attacks on him as 'personal' when they address his record and policy stance but that again misunderstands the game he's now in. Trivialities build a picture of a person (and not all the matters in question are trivialities), and that picture is very powerful in moulding public opinion.

    Corbyn knows this. He was happy enough doing it when he engaged in PR stunts he knew would outrage and scandalise. I suspect he enjoyed the fact that it did. But he's no longer at liberty to follow his own campaigns on the fringes and cannot continue as a free spirit.

    Labour can try and take credit for the appointment and the plan. That's fair enough. I don't think it will work particularly because the public are more prone to credit those who deliver rather than those who plan but they're welcome to try, and they're welcome to attack gaps in the plan - that's what oppositions should do. But whether or not they do, it won't change public perceptions of Corbyn and by extension, today's Labour, which are being built on a different level.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,281



    If Adonis resigns in three years time it will not be politically relevant if the Labour party remains in its current state of myopic self-indulgence. One day you will realise this Nick. But I guess it might take a few years and several electoral drubbings. It's extraordinary how those inside the Corbyn bubble can't see how totally irrelevant Labour has become.

    Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think there's any doubt that the many hostages to fortune produced by a lifetime on the left of Labour make it difficult for Corbyn. Equally I think many moderates in Labour are quietly surprised that the total meltdown predicted after the initial onslaught hasn't happened: positive suppport for Corbyn remains significantly higher than Ed was managing in the latter years (though Tories think he's terrible), and party polling is around what it was at the election.

    So most moderates, like Don, are giving it a fair try and putting forward constructive suggestions. Your standard reaction (3 times on this thread alone) has become "Aaargh, no, we're all doomed". Give it a rest!
    Corbyn has higher negatives than Ed though
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,425
    antifrank said:

    @JosiasJessop A heartwarming story. But what about all the lives that the little runts disrupted while they were "finding themselves"? Are they not to be taken into consideration also?

    But what about all the lives that the little runts disrupted while they were "finding themselves"?

    They grew up as warped individuals with a grudge against society and became lawyers ?
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,786
    antifrank said:

    @JosiasJessop A heartwarming story. But what about all the lives that the little runts disrupted while they were "finding themselves"? Are they not to be taken into consideration also?

    Yes, to a certain extent. But what you class as misbehaviour might not be classed the same by others, and I'd guess that such disruption is mostly temporary to you.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,786

    An anecdote wrt the spoilt children vibe.

    One of my uncles is a doctor, who lectured in a particular science at two universities (as a child I used to see him on OU programs, bedecked in flares). He had two children who are about ten years younger than me.

    When I was in my mid-teens we went to visit them, and the son and daughter ran riot the whole time. For instance the son jumped on the window sill and knocked ornaments off, they'd constantly interrupt, throw toys, etc. During the drive home, my mother said something like: "Both those kids'll end up in prison."

    And it was not a one-off.

    Wind forwards a couple of decades, and the son is now heavily involved with, and doing well for himself in, computers, and the daughter is a marine research scientist.

    Their 'misbehaviour' as kids seems to have made no difference to their prospects. The love their parents gave them did make a difference.

    All kids are individuals, and perhaps the correct parental strategy for each kid might be different as well.

    Ah first time parents :-)
    Indeed, But am I wrong?
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    The son of a friend of mine was a truly awful child, now he's a very successful artist. I'm really not sure of the connection other than he was an awful child and for all I know is still an awful person. Being able to paint is not necessarily virtuous.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,425
    John_M said:

    German integration of asylum seekers going well

    "Asylbewerber suchen sich zunehmend selbst ihren Wohnsitz aus, ziehen in den Zügen die Notbremsen, um einfach auszusteigen, weigern sich, in Busse einzusteigen, es gibt Unruhen bis hin zu Hungerstreiks in den Flüchtlingsheimen, weil das Essen angeblich nicht schmeckt oder nicht so entschieden wird, wie der Asylsuchende es will"

    Asylum seekers are increasingly demanding a home fot themselves, they pull the emergency brakes on trains simply to get off, refuse to get on buses and cause disturbances in the refugee homes right up to hunger strikes because ostensibly they don't like the taste of the food or it's not served they way the the asylumseeker wants.

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/fluechtlingskrise/horst-seehofer-es-gibt-hungerstreiks-in-den-fluechtlingsheimen-13847121.html

    Merkel has a bit of a problem atm

    Well, if you arrive at the land of milk and honey and find that it's not as you thought, then it's disappointing all round.

    Good morning all. Merkel's decision is going to haunt Germany for years. We've had around 1 million net migration this decade. They're doing more than that in a year. The idea that solving a demographic problem via mass immigration is going to be tested to destruction. My view has always been that proponents of that idea are just indulging in a ponzi scheme.

    We have to stop foisting our issues onto our children and grandchildren, whether that's managing finances, dealing with the elderly or infrastructure investment (fuelled by borrowing). As David H. says, less current spending, more capital spending. Not both. If that means higher taxes, then so be it.
    I fail to see how this is about demographics, that's a red herring, Germany could have imported millions of easily integratable East Europeans at any time in the last 20 years.

    This is about Merkel's grande geste.

    And it is going to be a problem.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    John_M said:

    German integration of asylum seekers going well

    "Asylbewerber suchen sich zunehmend selbst ihren Wohnsitz aus, ziehen in den Zügen die Notbremsen, um einfach auszusteigen, weigern sich, in Busse einzusteigen, es gibt Unruhen bis hin zu Hungerstreiks in den Flüchtlingsheimen, weil das Essen angeblich nicht schmeckt oder nicht so entschieden wird, wie der Asylsuchende es will"

    Asylum seekers are increasingly demanding a home fot themselves, they pull the emergency brakes on trains simply to get off, refuse to get on buses and cause disturbances in the refugee homes right up to hunger strikes because ostensibly they don't like the taste of the food or it's not served they way the the asylumseeker wants.

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/fluechtlingskrise/horst-seehofer-es-gibt-hungerstreiks-in-den-fluechtlingsheimen-13847121.html

    Merkel has a bit of a problem atm

    Good morning all. Well, if you arrive at the land of milk and honey and find that it's not as you thought, then it's disappointing all round.

    Merkel's decision is going to haunt Germany for years. We've had around 1 million net migration this decade. They're doing more than that in a year. The idea that solving a demographic problem via mass immigration is going to be tested to destruction. My view has always been that proponents of that idea are just indulging in a ponzi scheme.

    We have to stop foisting our issues onto our children and grandchildren, whether that's managing finances, dealing with the elderly or infrastructure investment (fuelled by borrowing). As David H. says, less current spending, more capital spending. Not both. If that means higher taxes, then so be it.
    One of the biggest lies in modern politics is we need population growth so youngsters can fund old people, if that were true the population would need to grow infinitely. The vast majority look at the news and shake their heads in wonderment, they know this just has to end in tears. The same would happen if a million Western Europeans turned up in a country where everything from culture, climate and general daily habits are different.

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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,786

    The son of a friend of mine was a truly awful child, now he's a very successful artist. I'm really not sure of the connection other than he was an awful child and for all I know is still an awful person. Being able to paint is not necessarily virtuous.

    How was he, as a child (*), 'awful' ?

    "... and for all I know is still an awful person."

    That shows a deficiency in your character, not his. Why assume that someone who was 'awful' as a child would be such as an adult? did you not change from childhood to adulthood?

    (*) This probably only applies up to his teens.
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    Roger said:

    OT. But sort of following Don's musings.......
    I've been pondering why French children are so different from English ones. Visiting art galleries in France you see large parties of young and very young schoolchildren being genuinely fascinated by the art. Not only are they there and interested but very well behaved
    ....... One of the least attractive features of the UK (apart from the weather the chauvinism the obeasity and the philistinism) is the prurience which is much less obvious in France. I wonder whether it's the general desire to repress which was so evident during the Tory Party Conference which is at the heart of it?

    Classic example of how lefties hate their country.
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    John_M said:

    German integration of asylum seekers going well

    "Asylbewerber suchen sich zunehmend selbst ihren Wohnsitz aus, ziehen in den Zügen die Notbremsen, um einfach auszusteigen, weigern sich, in Busse einzusteigen, es gibt Unruhen bis hin zu Hungerstreiks in den Flüchtlingsheimen, weil das Essen angeblich nicht schmeckt oder nicht so entschieden wird, wie der Asylsuchende es will"

    Asylum seekers are increasingly demanding a home fot themselves, they pull the emergency brakes on trains simply to get off, refuse to get on buses and cause disturbances in the refugee homes right up to hunger strikes because ostensibly they don't like the taste of the food or it's not served they way the the asylumseeker wants.

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/fluechtlingskrise/horst-seehofer-es-gibt-hungerstreiks-in-den-fluechtlingsheimen-13847121.html

    Merkel has a bit of a problem atm

    Good morning all. Well, if you arrive at the land of milk and honey and find that it's not as you thought, then it's disappointing all round.

    Merkel's decision is going to haunt Germany for years. We've had around 1 million net migration this decade. They're doing more than that in a year. The idea that solving a demographic problem via mass immigration is going to be tested to destruction. My view has always been that proponents of that idea are just indulging in a ponzi scheme.

    We have to stop foisting our issues onto our children and grandchildren, whether that's managing finances, dealing with the elderly or infrastructure investment (fuelled by borrowing). As David H. says, less current spending, more capital spending. Not both. If that means higher taxes, then so be it.
    One of the biggest lies in modern politics is we need population growth so youngsters can fund old people, if that were true the population would need to grow infinitely.

    snip

    The State Pension Ponzi Scheme. Totally unsustainable as many are now discovering. Some had worked it out years ago, but their warning cries were ignored.

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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    John_M said:

    German integration of asylum seekers going well

    "Asylbewerber suchen sich zunehmend selbst ihren Wohnsitz aus, ziehen in den Zügen die Notbremsen, um einfach auszusteigen, weigern sich, in Busse einzusteigen, es gibt Unruhen bis hin zu Hungerstreiks in den Flüchtlingsheimen, weil das Essen angeblich nicht schmeckt oder nicht so entschieden wird, wie der Asylsuchende es will"

    Asylum seekers are increasingly demanding a home fot themselves, they pull the emergency brakes on trains simply to get off, refuse to get on buses and cause disturbances in the refugee homes right up to hunger strikes because ostensibly they don't like the taste of the food or it's not served they way the the asylumseeker wants.

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/fluechtlingskrise/horst-seehofer-es-gibt-hungerstreiks-in-den-fluechtlingsheimen-13847121.html

    Merkel has a bit of a problem atm

    Well, if you arrive at the land of milk and honey and find that it's not as you thought, then it's disappointing all round.

    Good morning all. Merkel's decision is going to haunt Germany for years. We've had around 1 million net migration this decade. They're doing more than that in a year. The idea that solving a demographic problem via mass immigration is going to be tested to destruction. My view has always been that proponents of that idea are just indulging in a ponzi scheme.

    We have to stop foisting our issues onto our children and grandchildren, whether that's managing finances, dealing with the elderly or infrastructure investment (fuelled by borrowing). As David H. says, less current spending, more capital spending. Not both. If that means higher taxes, then so be it.
    I fail to see how this is about demographics, that's a red herring, Germany could have imported millions of easily integratable East Europeans at any time in the last 20 years.

    This is about Merkel's grande geste.

    And it is going to be a problem.
    My apologies for not being clearer. It's a standard argument that's used to justify mass immigration; I do appreciate that Merkel was indulging in gesture politics. It was other commentators who were peddling the "How will we fund/look after the elderly" schtick.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,425

    An anecdote wrt the spoilt children vibe.

    One of my uncles is a doctor, who lectured in a particular science at two universities (as a child I used to see him on OU programs, bedecked in flares). He had two children who are about ten years younger than me.

    When I was in my mid-teens we went to visit them, and the son and daughter ran riot the whole time. For instance the son jumped on the window sill and knocked ornaments off, they'd constantly interrupt, throw toys, etc. During the drive home, my mother said something like: "Both those kids'll end up in prison."

    And it was not a one-off.

    Wind forwards a couple of decades, and the son is now heavily involved with, and doing well for himself in, computers, and the daughter is a marine research scientist.

    Their 'misbehaviour' as kids seems to have made no difference to their prospects. The love their parents gave them did make a difference.

    All kids are individuals, and perhaps the correct parental strategy for each kid might be different as well.

    Ah first time parents :-)
    Indeed, But am I wrong?
    Actually with three nearly off my hands, they're all different and your relationship changes with them over the years. The fun of the terrible twos and early teens are the most memorable. Most of the time though it's good fun, the main issue I'd say is mutual respect if you let them treat you as a door mat you're asking for trouble, likewise if you can't cut them some slack to make their own mistakes you're doing them no favours.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Moderates like Don "Jack Jones, My Political Hero" Brind?

    Well that's a novel definition, I'll give you that.



    If Adonis resigns in three years time it will not be politically relevant if the Labour party remains in its current state of myopic self-indulgence. One day you will realise this Nick. But I guess it might take a few years and several electoral drubbings. It's extraordinary how those inside the Corbyn bubble can't see how totally irrelevant Labour has become.

    Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think there's any doubt that the many hostages to fortune produced by a lifetime on the left of Labour make it difficult for Corbyn. Equally I think many moderates in Labour are quietly surprised that the total meltdown predicted after the initial onslaught hasn't happened: positive suppport for Corbyn remains significantly higher than Ed was managing in the latter years (though Tories think he's terrible), and party polling is around what it was at the election.

    So most moderates, like Don, are giving it a fair try and putting forward constructive suggestions. Your standard reaction (3 times on this thread alone) has become "Aaargh, no, we're all doomed". Give it a rest!
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    If Adonis resigns in three years time it will not be politically relevant if the Labour party remains in its current state of myopic self-indulgence. One day you will realise this Nick. But I guess it might take a few years and several electoral drubbings. It's extraordinary how those inside the Corbyn bubble can't see how totally irrelevant Labour has become.

    Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think there's any doubt that the many hostages to fortune produced by a lifetime on the left of Labour make it difficult for Corbyn. Equally I think many moderates in Labour are quietly surprised that the total meltdown predicted after the initial onslaught hasn't happened: positive suppport for Corbyn remains significantly higher than Ed was managing in the latter years (though Tories think he's terrible), and party polling is around what it was at the election.

    So most moderates, like Don, are giving it a fair try and putting forward constructive suggestions. Your standard reaction (3 times on this thread alone) has become "Aaargh, no, we're all doomed". Give it a rest!

    My standard reaction remains genuine astonishment that the Labour party has so wilfully made itself so utterly irrelevant. I'll keep saying that, you keep saying how everyone is pleasantly surprised things aren't even worse. One day we'll agree I was right about Corbyn and you were wrong. In the meantime the Tories have free rein to do as they wish without fear of electoral consequence.

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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    antifrank said:

    @JosiasJessop A heartwarming story. But what about all the lives that the little runts disrupted while they were "finding themselves"? Are they not to be taken into consideration also?

    But what about all the lives that the little runts disrupted while they were "finding themselves"?

    They grew up as warped individuals with a grudge against society and became lawyers ?
    I like a story with a happy ending.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,425
    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    @JosiasJessop A heartwarming story. But what about all the lives that the little runts disrupted while they were "finding themselves"? Are they not to be taken into consideration also?

    But what about all the lives that the little runts disrupted while they were "finding themselves"?

    They grew up as warped individuals with a grudge against society and became lawyers ?
    I like a story with a happy ending.
    LOL

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,080
    antifrank said:

    @JosiasJessop A heartwarming story. But what about all the lives that the little runts disrupted while they were "finding themselves"? Are they not to be taken into consideration also?

    Being a good parent is at least as hard as getting rid of the structural deficit. Having had 3 goes at it now I am increasingly of the view that nature is at least as important as nurture and the underlying character of the child will determine much of their behaviour.

    Frustrating and irritating as it can be for the parent (let alone anyone else in the vicinity) it is necessary to engage and reason with the person from a surprisingly young age. Simply telling children what to do or imposing what they see as unreasonable punishments usually aggravates the situation.

    The most important thing any child or indeed adult can learn in life is that actions have consequences. They need to be made to think about the consequences and then moderate their own behaviour accordingly. Easier said than done of course, not least because it requires a degree of consistency on the part of the parents themselves, an area where I have failed many times.
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