Undefined discussion subject.

TheWhiteRabbit said:

Well reducing "green taxes" would cut energy bills by 5-10%, but no more than that - unless you propose a full set of new coal-fired power stations - but that's very long term.

That's simply not true. Ending the subsidy for investment in renewable production would require replacement with a subsidy for another form of production.

Energy infrastructure does not get built without government subsidy. Period.

The alternative currently on offer is a MUCH higher price via the indirect subsidy for a new nuclear plant at Hinckley Point. Wind farms are much cheaper in terms of the cost of electricity bills.

SeanT said:

The psychotic fury of the Corbynista march in Manchester is quite something.

https://twitter.com/ThatMichaelW/status/650670850459439108

And now they are spitting on all the journalists... Though this might be evil Tory infiltrators, trained in secret camps to expectorate at hacks to discredit the Left.

https://twitter.com/Fwestivus/status/650692653940625408

Labour has just gone postal. 100% nuts.

They have mistaken depth of feeling with breath of felling.

Dair said:

CarlottaVance said:

Dair said:

If Business For Scotland is an SNP front, why would the party go on to nominate her as a PPC.

Logic escapes you, as usual.

Because they didn't do their homework?

Funny how Nicola knew she was the 'right person for the job' then suddenly knew 'nothing about her business affairs'

Its not me that logic has escaped......

The frothing insanity with which desperate loyalists try to attack the SNP gets more comical by the day.

So did Nicola know enough about her business affairs to appoint her to the role or not?

Kinder politics should involve eggs surely?

Theuniondivvie said:

Kinder politics should involve eggs surely?

Theuniondivvie said:

Kinder politics should involve eggs surely?

I surprised to hear you say that.

Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:

Dair said:

Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:

Hat tip to Dair for tipping Nibali for Lombardy

Much as I'd love to take credit, I didn't tip Nibali. Odds just weren't good enough in a crap shoot like that. IIRC he was about 5/2.

Was a magnificent attack on the descents, however.

You picked him for the win though didn't you?
I'm gutted that I didn't back him as he was iirc 5's on Betfair.
Always a bit wary of betting on one day races as they seem a bit of a lottery at times.

I don't think I did. He was an obvious favourite but as you say, one day races are a bit of a lottery. 5s might have been worth a tickle but I find long odds each way bets are where the value is on cycling.

Just look at hate filled abandoned placards

Mortimer said:

SouthamObserver said:

The closest thing I have ever come to feeling hate for anyone in politics was in helping take on the far left when I was at university. It's all coming back to me now. They really are disgusting scumbags. And the Corbynites will blame it all on the police, the media and the Tories, red and blue. Utter fuckwits.

Totally unthinking hatred being displayed on the streets of Manchester. I commiserate with you SO.

JWisemann said:

SeanT said:

SouthamObserver said:

The closest thing I have ever come to feeling hate for anyone in politics was in helping take on the far left when I was at university. It's all coming back to me now. They really are disgusting scumbags. And the Corbynites will blame it all on the police, the media and the Tories, red and blue. Utter fuckwits.

What's darkly brilliant, in a dada kind of way, is that Corbynistas are now all over Twitter complaining that the media isn't giving *positive* coverage of the march.

This after they just shouted, menaced and SPAT at all those good people in the media, from Telegraph editors to C4 presenters to humble Huffpo bloggers.

What proportion of the marchers/protestors do you think are involved, exactly?

Why? Is there a minimum amount in percentage terms before it becomes unacceptable?

Omnium said:

Once again the left march against democracy. Corbyn and co really should be able to draw some sort of line between democratic opposition, and opposition to democracy. It seems they can't.

They are marching against a government which has absolute power based on 37% of the popular vote. The Tories do not have a democratic mandate.

Dair said:

Omnium said:

Once again the left march against democracy. Corbyn and co really should be able to draw some sort of line between democratic opposition, and opposition to democracy. It seems they can't.

They are marching against a government which has absolute power based on 37% of the popular vote. The Tories do not have a democratic mandate.

But they have more of a mandate than the protesters. That is how our liberal democratic system works.

Dair said:

Omnium said:

Once again the left march against democracy. Corbyn and co really should be able to draw some sort of line between democratic opposition, and opposition to democracy. It seems they can't.

They are marching against a government which has absolute power based on 37% of the popular vote. The Tories do not have a democratic mandate.

So depending on who wins the elections, the opposition get to decide what is and isn't a mandate?
The current government have as much of a mandate as every government since the universal franchise was introduced. Don't like it? Change it.

Theuniondivvie said:

Kinder politics should involve eggs surely?

Warning: risk of choking....

You have to think the decent folk in Labour have to move on and start again. The kids in charge now are going to totally trash the brand.

TheWhiteRabbit said:

BigRich said:

We could do a lot to reduce the cost of living. unfortunately we are unlikely because it will upset some special interest, and as with so many examples, where there is a concentrated benefit, and a widely spread cost, the concentrated benefit will in politicalised terms, beat the widely spread cost, even those the cost is larger.

Not sure I understand your point. It's difficult to make a meaningful impact on the cost of living because few specific items make a substantial difference by themslves.

BigRich said:

The easiest way would be to reduce import tariffs, and barriers, which would lower the cost of lots of things including food, which we all eat, but upset farmers.

We have very few import tariffs and, of course, none within the EU.

Whilst I would like to see us relax the common external tariffs, that would require leaving the EU.

BigRich said:

Or we could relax the planning rules that stop new homes being built, that would allow supply to match demand, and make rents, and hose prise lower than they would be at the moment.

Many such attempts being made:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33472405
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/simplified-regulations-will-make-planning-easier

etc.

BigRich said:

Or perhaps the most radical we would lower/eliminate corporation tax, that would attract the investment that would and though the invisible hand of the market would force wages up and prises down, improving the standard of living or all, to a far grater extent then tax money spent by government bureaucrats ever will.

Already the lowest corporation tax of an advanced economy - and well placed even outside that.

I agree rising wages is the thing that would make the most change. Housing would be second.

Wightrabbit,

Tank you for the reply and, yes I recognise some progress is being made in some areas, at least to some extent and many of the benefits will only be fully realised in the fullness of time. And thank you for the links.

But I still stand by the main point, that living standards could be greatly increased, especially for the less well off in our country, by an overall program of deregulation.

Each regulation on its own has a small effect, but the overall impact is large.

The single biggest impact would be cutting the Common External Tariff, ether by leaving the EU or by persuasion inside would significantly reduce the cost of food, and as the poor spend a larger portions of there income on food, it will help them most. other tariffs are low, but there are plenty of other non tariff barrier, e.g. 'quotas' on clothing imports.

HaroldO said:

JWisemann said:

SeanT said:

SouthamObserver said:

The closest thing I have ever come to feeling hate for anyone in politics was in helping take on the far left when I was at university. It's all coming back to me now. They really are disgusting scumbags. And the Corbynites will blame it all on the police, the media and the Tories, red and blue. Utter fuckwits.

What's darkly brilliant, in a dada kind of way, is that Corbynistas are now all over Twitter complaining that the media isn't giving *positive* coverage of the march.

This after they just shouted, menaced and SPAT at all those good people in the media, from Telegraph editors to C4 presenters to humble Huffpo bloggers.

What proportion of the marchers/protestors do you think are involved, exactly?

Why? Is there a minimum amount in percentage terms before it becomes unacceptable?

Of course its unacceptable at any level, the point is using the behaviour of a tiny minority to discredit others (when the responsibility for the behaviour falls solely on the perpetrators) who are completely uninvolved is a classic propaganda technique, and I'm surprised to see people who i believed relatively intelligent to be gleefully indulging in it here.

TheWhiteRabbit said:

Dair said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

Well reducing "green taxes" would cut energy bills by 5-10%, but no more than that - unless you propose a full set of new coal-fired power stations - but that's very long term.

That's simply not true. Ending the subsidy for investment in renewable production would require replacement with a subsidy for another form of production.

Energy infrastructure does not get built without government subsidy. Period.

The alternative currently on offer is a MUCH higher price via the indirect subsidy for a new nuclear plant at Hinckley Point. Wind farms are much cheaper in terms of the cost of electricity bills.

I was not really attempting a full cost/benefit analysis. Generally I would take your position: energy is expensive; infrastructure requires government-scale investment.

Literally stripping out subsidies in the short term could result in a saving, but not enough to have much effect on the cost of living compared to wages. That wouldn't help the long term energy policy, which would then need money somewhere else.

The stupidity is putting government investment in infrastructure on the bloody bill. Utterly stupid and moronic.

The nuclear project is even more insidious - it's still on the bill but it will be in the unit price and not separated out.

I see the lefty haters are out and about in Manchester.

The new left, same as the old left.

Dair said:

Omnium said:

Once again the left march against democracy. Corbyn and co really should be able to draw some sort of line between democratic opposition, and opposition to democracy. It seems they can't.

They are marching against a government which has absolute power based on 37% of the popular vote. The Tories do not have a democratic mandate.

We've been over this before - you may well have been consistent in disliking how our system gives majority power to people on 37% of the popular vote, but it is highly doubtful that most of those raging at the Tories in the streets have been so consistent when governments they preferred were in office, and as Mortimer says, the Tories have a much greater mandate than those marching and protesting do, and they in no way acknowledge that.

A protest I get, keep up the fight against governments we don't like and all that, but the pathetic intensity of the anger and misdirected rage, as well as hypocritical assertions of speaking for the majority despite the closest thing to a focus test of that majority - a general election - giving an alternate result, means these sorts of things scupper any points they might have as a result of their, as SeanT puts it, juvenile wankery.

It's self defeating more than anything else, and at its worse unbearably self righteous and hypocritical to boot. There's much the Tories will do that needs opposing, and a march in the streets of some kind could be a useful tool in exposing what those things are, but this sort of thing happens as an automatic 'it's the Tories' reaction, and then descends into hyperbolic rubbish, enabling the Tories to just ignore it.

Now, the Tories might well lose in 2020 despite current predictions, brought low perhaps by their own stupid or destructive actions that enrage the population, but the rabbles spitting on people and incoherently rambling about them will not be the cause or reflection of that.

JWisemann said:

HaroldO said:

JWisemann said:

SeanT said:

SouthamObserver said:

The closest thing I have ever come to feeling hate for anyone in politics was in helping take on the far left when I was at university. It's all coming back to me now. They really are disgusting scumbags. And the Corbynites will blame it all on the police, the media and the Tories, red and blue. Utter fuckwits.

What's darkly brilliant, in a dada kind of way, is that Corbynistas are now all over Twitter complaining that the media isn't giving *positive* coverage of the march.

This after they just shouted, menaced and SPAT at all those good people in the media, from Telegraph editors to C4 presenters to humble Huffpo bloggers.

What proportion of the marchers/protestors do you think are involved, exactly?

Why? Is there a minimum amount in percentage terms before it becomes unacceptable?

Of course its unacceptable at any level, the point is using the behaviour of a tiny minority to discredit others (when the responsibility for the behaviour falls solely on the perpetrators) who are completely uninvolved is a classic propaganda technique, and I'm surprised to see people who i believed relatively intelligent to be gleefully indulging in it here.

That is only true if there are a few isolated incidents, I've so far read about at least four reports being threatened/spat on (I think there are more), one delegate being egged, ministers being threatened and sings songs about Tory scum.
This is, what, day two? The longer it goes on the worse it will get.

SeanT said:

JWisemann said:

SeanT said:

SouthamObserver said:

The closest thing I have ever come to feeling hate for anyone in politics was in helping take on the far left when I was at university. It's all coming back to me now. They really are disgusting scumbags. And the Corbynites will blame it all on the police, the media and the Tories, red and blue. Utter fuckwits.

What's darkly brilliant, in a dada kind of way, is that Corbynistas are now all over Twitter complaining that the media isn't giving *positive* coverage of the march.

This after they just shouted, menaced and SPAT at all those good people in the media, from Telegraph editors to C4 presenters to humble Huffpo bloggers.

What proportion of the marchers/protestors do you think are involved, exactly?

No idea. But I'm fairly sure they've ruined their own protest with this juvenile wankery.

And it's not isolated. Here's an organised sing-song of "Tory scum", for your delectation.

https://twitter.com/CathyCrabb/status/650703828669628416

And here's an actual death threat.

https://twitter.com/adamwhelan17/status/650705858343665664

Do you think a silly song watched by a few thousand people is actually any worse than the prime minister publically calling an entire mainstream party with many millions of voters a 'threat to national security'?
It isn't nearly so bad, in actuality.
Regarding spitting and other violence, that is inexcusable, and I suspect is limited to a minute handful of troublemakers who hold no allegiance other than to themselves.
To attempt to smear the rest of the left in this way is illogical and the classic behaviour of authoritarian propagandists for time immemorial.
You, of all people, should be ashamed of yourself.

Frances O'Grady from the TUC took to Twitter to say members of the NUJ should be allowed to do their jobs unhindered after the spitting/threatening - she was asked about the reporters who weren't...

Omnium said:

SeanT said:

JWisemann said:

SeanT said:

SouthamObserver said:

The closest thing I have ever come to feeling hate for anyone in politics was in helping take on the far left when I was at university. It's all coming back to me now. They really are disgusting scumbags. And the Corbynites will blame it all on the police, the media and the Tories, red and blue. Utter fuckwits.

What's darkly brilliant, in a dada kind of way, is that Corbynistas are now all over Twitter complaining that the media isn't giving *positive* coverage of the march.

This after they just shouted, menaced and SPAT at all those good people in the media, from Telegraph editors to C4 presenters to humble Huffpo bloggers.

What proportion of the marchers/protestors do you think are involved, exactly?

No idea. But I'm fairly sure they've ruined their own protest with this juvenile wankery.

And it's not isolated. Here's an organised sing-song of "Tory scum", for your delectation.

https://twitter.com/CathyCrabb/status/650703828669628416

And here's an actual death threat.

https://twitter.com/adamwhelan17/status/650705858343665664

Good grief that's dreadful singing.

Labour and the TUC should take swift steps to completely condemn all this. They should also apologise to the Tory party that such things are being done at least partly in their name.

They really are much better than this. It is totally beneath any thinking person.

Day 1 officially, but the protesters held a rave for two days in the park annoying local residents and businesses. GMP took 48hrs to shut it down.

HaroldO said:

JWisemann said:

HaroldO said:

JWisemann said:

SeanT said:

SouthamObserver said:

The closest thing I have ever come to feeling hate for anyone in politics was in helping take on the far left when I was at university. It's all coming back to me now. They really are disgusting scumbags. And the Corbynites will blame it all on the police, the media and the Tories, red and blue. Utter fuckwits.

What's darkly brilliant, in a dada kind of way, is that Corbynistas are now all over Twitter complaining that the media isn't giving *positive* coverage of the march.

This after they just shouted, menaced and SPAT at all those good people in the media, from Telegraph editors to C4 presenters to humble Huffpo bloggers.

What proportion of the marchers/protestors do you think are involved, exactly?

Why? Is there a minimum amount in percentage terms before it becomes unacceptable?

Of course its unacceptable at any level, the point is using the behaviour of a tiny minority to discredit others (when the responsibility for the behaviour falls solely on the perpetrators) who are completely uninvolved is a classic propaganda technique, and I'm surprised to see people who i believed relatively intelligent to be gleefully indulging in it here.

That is only true if there are a few isolated incidents, I've so far read about at least four reports being threatened/spat on (I think there are more), one delegate being egged, ministers being threatened and sings songs about Tory scum.
This is, what, day two? The longer it goes on the worse it will get.

Dair said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

Well reducing "green taxes" would cut energy bills by 5-10%, but no more than that - unless you propose a full set of new coal-fired power stations - but that's very long term.

That's simply not true. Ending the subsidy for investment in renewable production would require replacement with a subsidy for another form of production.

Energy infrastructure does not get built without government subsidy. Period.

The alternative currently on offer is a MUCH higher price via the indirect subsidy for a new nuclear plant at Hinckley Point. Wind farms are much cheaper in terms of the cost of electricity bills.

There is no need or reason to subsidise any for of electricity generation. the market is quite capable of building power stations, they will chose the best way of doing it, and focus on making that at most efficient way. Unless you hinder them with regulations, or come up with your own central plan wind this % nuclear that % and so on, only then will you need subsidies.

Scott_P said:

Dair said:

Thomson was selected by the Edinburgh West SNP branch. Candidates were screened by the SNP before the decision was made and that process did not involve Nicola Sturgeon.

twitter.com/HTScotPol/status/649966971757424642/photo/1

SNP leader endorses SNP candidate.

I'm SHOCKED, shocked I tell you.

Journos in full 4 yorkshiremen mode.

SeanT said:

Omnium said:

SeanT said:

JWisemann said:

SeanT said:

SouthamObserver said:

The closest thing I have ever come to feeling hate for anyone in politics was in helping take on the far left when I was at university. It's all coming back to me now. They really are disgusting scumbags. And the Corbynites will blame it all on the police, the media and the Tories, red and blue. Utter fuckwits.

What's darkly brilliant, in a dada kind of way, is that Corbynistas are now all over Twitter complaining that the media isn't giving *positive* coverage of the march.

This after they just shouted, menaced and SPAT at all those good people in the media, from Telegraph editors to C4 presenters to humble Huffpo bloggers.

What proportion of the marchers/protestors do you think are involved, exactly?

No idea. But I'm fairly sure they've ruined their own protest with this juvenile wankery.

And it's not isolated. Here's an organised sing-song of "Tory scum", for your delectation.

https://twitter.com/CathyCrabb/status/650703828669628416

And here's an actual death threat.

https://twitter.com/adamwhelan17/status/650705858343665664

Good grief that's dreadful singing.

Labour and the TUC should take swift steps to completely condemn all this. They should also apologise to the Tory party that such things are being done at least partly in their name.

They really are much better than this. It is totally beneath any thinking person.

The body language of SOME people in the crowd is quite telling. They are frozen, or faintly rolling their eyes, and clearly thinking: "Jesus this is embarrassing and stupid", as everyone sings and claps their hands around them.

They have feet and can walk away. I know perhaps its a hard thing to do, but nevertheless nobody seemed to be doing so.

I went to the Billy Elliot musical a while back. There is a very anti Thatcher number. I certainly didn't clap, and I would have left if they'd continued in that vein. I completely appreciate that it was entertainment, and it was trying to reflect the feelings of those portrayed, but whatever the situation I won't support such bile.

Omnium said:

SeanT said:

Omnium said:

SeanT said:

JWisemann said:

SeanT said:

SouthamObserver said:

The closest thing I have ever come to feeling hate for anyone in politics was in helping take on the far left when I was at university. It's all coming back to me now. They really are disgusting scumbags. And the Corbynites will blame it all on the police, the media and the Tories, red and blue. Utter fuckwits.

What's darkly brilliant, in a dada kind of way, is that Corbynistas are now all over Twitter complaining that the media isn't giving *positive* coverage of the march.

This after they just shouted, menaced and SPAT at all those good people in the media, from Telegraph editors to C4 presenters to humble Huffpo bloggers.

What proportion of the marchers/protestors do you think are involved, exactly?

No idea. But I'm fairly sure they've ruined their own protest with this juvenile wankery.

And it's not isolated. Here's an organised sing-song of "Tory scum", for your delectation.

https://twitter.com/CathyCrabb/status/650703828669628416

And here's an actual death threat.

https://twitter.com/adamwhelan17/status/650705858343665664

Good grief that's dreadful singing.

Labour and the TUC should take swift steps to completely condemn all this. They should also apologise to the Tory party that such things are being done at least partly in their name.

They really are much better than this. It is totally beneath any thinking person.

The body language of SOME people in the crowd is quite telling. They are frozen, or faintly rolling their eyes, and clearly thinking: "Jesus this is embarrassing and stupid", as everyone sings and claps their hands around them.

They have feet and can walk away. I know perhaps its a hard thing to do, but nevertheless nobody seemed to be doing so.

I went to the Billy Elliot musical a while back. There is a very anti Thatcher number. I certainly didn't clap, and I would have left if they'd continued in that vein. I completely appreciate that it was entertainment, and it was trying to reflect the feelings of those portrayed, but whatever the situation I won't support such bile.

You didn't walk out though.

Eh_ehm_a_eh said:

Journos in full 4 yorkshiremen mode.

Must be a disappointment to those that only got accidentally shoulder checked during the crush of people or something - that won't get the interns cheering your bravery!

kle4 said:

We've been over this before - you may well have been consistent in disliking how our system gives majority power to people on 37% of the popular vote, but it is highly doubtful that most of those raging at the Tories in the streets have been so consistent when governments they preferred were in office, and as Mortimer says, the Tories have a much greater mandate than those marching and protesting do, and they in no way acknowledge that.

A protest I get, keep up the fight against governments we don't like and all that, but the pathetic intensity of the anger and misdirected rage, as well as hypocritical assertions of speaking for the majority despite the closest thing to a focus test of that majority - a general election - giving an alternate result, means these sorts of things scupper any points they might have as a result of their, as SeanT puts it, juvenile wankery.

It's self defeating more than anything else, and at its worse unbearably self righteous and hypocritical to boot. There's much the Tories will do that needs opposing, and a march in the streets of some kind could be a useful tool in exposing what those things are, but this sort of thing happens as an automatic 'it's the Tories' reaction, and then descends into hyperbolic rubbish, enabling the Tories to just ignore it.

Now, the Tories might well lose in 2020 despite current predictions, brought low perhaps by their own stupid or destructive actions that enrage the population, but the rabbles spitting on people and incoherently rambling about them will not be the cause or reflection of that.

I was replying to someone who posted that the protests are "opposing democracy". I'm not defending the protests (although I feel absolutely no reason to jump on the Outrage Bus the way the PB Tories appear to be doing.

The bottom line is that liberal democratic economics (note the lower case) got 37% of the vote while 50% votes for social democratic economics and 13% votes for an incoherent jumble of social democratic and hardline libertarian economics.

That means it is perfectly legitimate to protest the party who wants to implement their liberal democratic economic mandate without any political legitimacy. Even if it is nutty, incoherent, ridiculous and peurile, it is not anti-democratic.

I think theuniondivvie makes a good point about some folk on both sides enjoying this sort of thing immensely. It's simpler, more cathartic, more satisfying, to go full out against an opponent with no pretense of respect or subtlety. It's probably one reason the Independence debate is so poisonous even compared to regular political debate, as with all the emotion stirred up it's just easier and more satisfying to throw off the shackles and try to turn the enemy into mulch.

Seems to have calmed down in Manchester.

Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.

It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue

@JohnRentoul: This was tweeted an hour ago by @jeremycorbyn Nothing on his supporters spitting at journalists yet. https://t.co/xw6AGrj0Uw

Scott_P said:

@JohnRentoul: This was tweeted an hour ago by @jeremycorbyn Nothing on his supporters spitting at journalists yet. https://t.co/xw6AGrj0Uw

Can he say anything that won't be seen as a u-turn?

Mortimer said:

Dair said:

Mortimer said:

Dair said:

Omnium said:

Once again the left march against democracy. Corbyn and co really should be able to draw some sort of line between democratic opposition, and opposition to democracy. It seems they can't.

They are marching against a government which has absolute power based on 37% of the popular vote. The Tories do not have a democratic mandate.

But they have more of a mandate than the protesters. That is how our liberal democratic system works.

I'm not defending the nutjobs. They are what they are.

I'm merely pointing out that they cannot be claimed to be opposing democracy because the United Kingdom is not a democracy and any legitimacy of the government is purely accidental when it occurs.

And currently it hasn't occurred and the government is not legitimate.

So where there has been a majority deciding something by referendum 'for a generation', you respect that, correct?

Unfortunately for you that was not the question asked.

The question asked was asked on a particular day at a particular time. Much as other elections such as General Elections. As such it should be repeated automatically on a reasonable time scale of every four or five years.

Dair said:

kle4 said:

We'

That means it is perfectly legitimate to protest the party who wants to implement their liberal democratic economic mandate without any political legitimacy. Even if it is nutty, incoherent, ridiculous and peurile, it is not anti-democratic.

I think that depends on what is being 'demanded' in the protest and, again, if those protesting could honestly say they would do the same or accept the same from those protesting against a government they liked. If they say the the government has no right or mandate to do what they are doing, they are simply wrong as our system has legitimacy (for all I support a change, I cannot accept your definition of the current system as lacking legitimacy), but are free to say it of course.

TudorRose said:

Moses_ said:

Dair said:

Omnium said:

Once again the left march against democracy. Corbyn and co really should be able to draw some sort of line between democratic opposition, and opposition to democracy. It seems they can't.

They are marching against a government which has absolute power based on 37% of the popular vote. The Tories do not have a democratic mandate.

Why is this always raised when Labour was in a similar position holding even less % yet with more seats yet it was rarely if ever mentioned and even today by the looks has been forgotten

And that was before we had a referendum about changing the system... There's even less excuse now.

There was no referendum on changing the system.

There was a referendum on changing the voting method to favour the third largest party. It was rightly rejected.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Seems to have calmed down in Manchester.

Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.

It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue

I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse.
People have a very low opinion of journalism world wide, spitting is nothing when people hate your guts anyway, if the protesters were burning the Daily Express building now that would be something I would condemn.

I'm wondering if Jezza will appear after all. His minders must know this is appalling TV and PR.

dr_spyn said:

Scott_P said:

@JohnRentoul: This was tweeted an hour ago by @jeremycorbyn Nothing on his supporters spitting at journalists yet. https://t.co/xw6AGrj0Uw

Labour's Press team haven't tweeted anything either.

Dair said:

TudorRose said:

Moses_ said:

Dair said:

Omnium said:

Once again the left march against democracy. Corbyn and co really should be able to draw some sort of line between democratic opposition, and opposition to democracy. It seems they can't.

They are marching against a government which has absolute power based on 37% of the popular vote. The Tories do not have a democratic mandate.

Why is this always raised when Labour was in a similar position holding even less % yet with more seats yet it was rarely if ever mentioned and even today by the looks has been forgotten

And that was before we had a referendum about changing the system... There's even less excuse now.

There was no referendum on changing the system.

There was a referendum on changing the voting method to favour the third largest party. It was rightly rejected.

And no one has proposed changing the system in any meaningful way since, or if they have it has not received any democratic legitimacy in the form of that party winning an election and thus a mandate to make that change. As someone who likes electoral reform and discussions on voting systems, it's been a bit frustrating it's still so low on the public radar.

kle4 said:

dr_spyn said:

Scott_P said:

@JohnRentoul: This was tweeted an hour ago by @jeremycorbyn Nothing on his supporters spitting at journalists yet. https://t.co/xw6AGrj0Uw

Labour's Press team haven't tweeted anything either.

Well, they're in a bit of a bind. I imagine they hold disdain for this type of activity or language for the most part, if having some sympathy with the emotion behind it, but they know any too quick condemnation might be seen as bowing to pressure from the Tories and accepting their supporters are worse than others, so they'll presumably wait for things to quiet, slip out a mealy mouthed statement if pressed, which won't upset anyone doing the activity too much but also meets the burden of official condemnation so that the Tories cannot make too much hay with it later.

I think it's something they shouldn't care about.

Can anyone point me at any really compelling evidence that Assad is the monster he's alleged to be?

There are many bad things about his regime of course, but I just don't see the big anti Assad picture. He just seems a bit weak to me.

When he first came to power I thought that there was an enormous diplomatic opportunity. He's just a London dentist or some such after all. Then things went quiet, and now he's a 'butcher'.

I currently have no opinion other than I'd like more information.

Moses_ said:

Dair said:

Omnium said:

Once again the left march against democracy. Corbyn and co really should be able to draw some sort of line between democratic opposition, and opposition to democracy. It seems they can't.

They are marching against a government which has absolute power based on 37% of the popular vote. The Tories do not have a democratic mandate.

Why is this always raised when Labour was in a similar position holding even less % yet with more seats yet it was rarely if ever mentioned and even today by the looks has been forgotten

As a simple rule, most people involved in politics respect there opponents, recognise that other people have good intentions, but disagree, sum times strongly about the policies they intend to use to achieve some objectives. this applies to most conservatives, Lib Dems, and even a lot of labour people.

The hard Left are different, they start from identity politicise, 'only they care about the working class' and people who disagree with then are not just wrong, but are moral evil, who want to oppress us, and has a lot in common with the religious cults like the scientologists.

As a result of assuming your opponent are evil, then anything becomes possible. but first comes the selective blindness, the Torys only got 37% so are illegitimate, even thou the labour party twice won with less votes, Lord Ashcroft is evil become he gave millions to the conservatism, ignoring the 2 Lords (Mitel and Sainsbury) gave more to labour at the 2010 election, and so on.

The real danger is the lengths they will go on to keep power when they get it, look at Veniswala for a good example.

Speedy said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Seems to have calmed down in Manchester.

Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.

It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue

I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse.
People have a very low opinion of journalism world wide, spitting is nothing when people hate your guts anyway, if the protesters were burning the Daily Express building now that would be something I would condemn.

The 2011 riots were hardly the doings of a democratic party that has aspirations to control all aspects of our lives...

TudorRose said:

kle4 said:

Dair said:

TudorRose said:

Moses_ said:

Dair said:

Omnium said:

Once again the left march against democracy. Corbyn and co really should be able to draw some sort of line between democratic opposition, and opposition to democracy. It seems they can't.

They are marching against a government which has absolute power based on 37% of the popular vote. The Tories do not have a democratic mandate.

Why is this always raised when Labour was in a similar position holding even less % yet with more seats yet it was rarely if ever mentioned and even today by the looks has been forgotten

And that was before we had a referendum about changing the system... There's even less excuse now.

There was no referendum on changing the system.

There was a referendum on changing the voting method to favour the third largest party. It was rightly rejected.

And no one has proposed changing the system in any meaningful way since, or if they have it has not received any democratic legitimacy in the form of that party winning an election and thus a mandate to make that change. As someone who likes electoral reform and discussions on voting systems, it's been a bit frustrating it's still so low on the public radar.

Perhaps it's low on the public radar because people don't much mind the current system (or don't mind as much as some people think they should).

Regrettably, that is probably the case - I regard that as public endorsement, albeit apathetic endorsement, of the current system, even if I think that endorsement is wrong. Others, I think unfairly, think the system is inherently unfair and thus is always illegitimate, though I'm confused how the people are supposed to demonstrate they accept the current system in any other way than passive acceptance (and increasing turnout 3 GEs in a row - if still low from historic highs - and lack of it being an issue for people, seems to be that)

Speedy said:

kle4 said:

dr_spyn said:

Scott_P said:

@JohnRentoul: This was tweeted an hour ago by @jeremycorbyn Nothing on his supporters spitting at journalists yet. https://t.co/xw6AGrj0Uw

Labour's Press team haven't tweeted anything either.

Well, they're in a bit of a bind. I imagine they hold disdain for this type of activity or language for the most part, if having some sympathy with the emotion behind it, but they know any too quick condemnation might be seen as bowing to pressure from the Tories and accepting their supporters are worse than others, so they'll presumably wait for things to quiet, slip out a mealy mouthed statement if pressed, which won't upset anyone doing the activity too much but also meets the burden of official condemnation so that the Tories cannot make too much hay with it later.

I think it's something they shouldn't care about.

Certainly I don't see what they could say that would 'fix' things, so I can see why they might not bother.

kle4 said:

Dair said:

kle4 said:

We'

That means it is perfectly legitimate to protest the party who wants to implement their liberal democratic economic mandate without any political legitimacy. Even if it is nutty, incoherent, ridiculous and peurile, it is not anti-democratic.

I think that depends on what is being 'demanded' in the protest and, again, if those protesting could honestly say they would do the same or accept the same from those protesting against a government they liked. If they say the the government has no right or mandate to do what they are doing, they are simply wrong as our system has legitimacy (for all I support a change, I cannot accept your definition of the current system as lacking legitimacy), but are free to say it of course.

I don't see how you can make the claim that the UK is either democratic or that the current government has legitimacy.

Because people aren't in the streets rioting? This is exactly what the PB Tories are "outraged" about.

We have a system where one part of the government is elected but that system allows them full control of that with less than 40% of the vote. We have a head of state not one person in this country elected and a revising chamber where not one of the members is elected by the general population.

Not only does our system ensure that you can govern without a majority (or near majority given that a small percentage will always be excluded on the fringes) of the electorate but also where the normal checks and balances on power normally found in other countries do not exist due to the nature of the Lords and the constitutional role of the monarch.

FYI - I have heard anecdotally that tomorrow will be a lot worse because Corbyn is coming to address the masses.

i agree - "you can't trust labour" seems a banker to me.