That means it is perfectly legitimate to protest the party who wants to implement their liberal democratic economic mandate without any political legitimacy. Even if it is nutty, incoherent, ridiculous and peurile, it is not anti-democratic.
I think that depends on what is being 'demanded' in the protest and, again, if those protesting could honestly say they would do the same or accept the same from those protesting against a government they liked. If they say the the government has no right or mandate to do what they are doing, they are simply wrong as our system has legitimacy (for all I support a change, I cannot accept your definition of the current system as lacking legitimacy), but are free to say it of course.
I don't see how you can make the claim that the UK is either democratic or that the current government has legitimacy.
Because people aren't in the streets rioting? This is exactly what the PB Tories are "outraged" about.
Because people are not voting in parties that want to change the system - given you can get a majority on so little of the vote, and you only really need one chamber to change things, if the people genuinely wanted to change the system it would be very easy. A few losers outside a political conference is not a sign of anything, if real change was wanted it would be easy to achieve it.
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse. People have a very low opinion of journalism world wide, spitting is nothing when people hate your guts anyway, if the protesters were burning the Daily Express building now that would be something I would condemn.
What a ridiculously stupid statement. Journalists should be allowed to do their job without being menaced and spat at.
And besides it is so enormously counter-productive. You need the media to get your message out. Gobbing phlegm at them doesn't assist.
@billiwilliams 5m5 minutes ago Heading in to Tory conference as a charity staffer is great fun. Not been called Tory scum for a while...
Journalists have been shot and bombed all the time in the past, being spat on by protesters who have a very low opinion of the profession is nothing.
If people have a very low opinion of journalism then inevitably they will show their feelings when passions run high. It's better they spit rather than use pitchforks.
Can anyone point me at any really compelling evidence that Assad is the monster he's alleged to be?
There are many bad things about his regime of course, but I just don't see the big anti Assad picture. He just seems a bit weak to me.
When he first came to power I thought that there was an enormous diplomatic opportunity. He's just a London dentist or some such after all. Then things went quiet, and now he's a 'butcher'.
I currently have no opinion other than I'd like more information.
Since you don't have to go far to find the anti (any mainstream Western media source), here's the pro:
There was absolutely no upside to holding this march today and for anyone with half a brain plenty of downside. How do those marching - and those justifying it - think that thousands of people shouting Tory Scum is going to go down among the voters Labour needs in order to stand a chance of winning? A few thousand people feel a whole lot better about themselves this evening. Millions more don't know, don't care or feel completely revolted. Brilliant.
I thought the shadow chancellor approved of such direct action?
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse. People have a very low opinion of journalism world wide, spitting is nothing when people hate your guts anyway, if the protesters were burning the Daily Express building now that would be something I would condemn.
The 2011 riots were hardly the doings of a democratic party that has aspirations to control all aspects of our lives...
People are going to protest when they disagree strongly about something, whether we like it or not.
Indeed, and it's a good thing they do too. They could so easily avoid extending that protest to the type of counter productive methods and tones today inevitably did/
We only had an election 4 months ago - it makes the Left look childish sore losers.
Spitting on journalists and intimidating members of the public is never big or clever.
Re @kle4 - I'm sorry but I think you're talking a large degree of nonsense trying to find some equivalence between the way the Right and the Left behave. There weren't mounted police and squads of dogs outside the Labour conf to stop delegates being assaulted. There were pix of Corbyn sitting around on the steps outside - you'd never see that from a Tory leader even when not in HMG.
You don't get angry Righties carrying coffins of effigies of former Labour leaders or placards demanding their death or calling them scum.
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse. People have a very low opinion of journalism world wide, spitting is nothing when people hate your guts anyway, if the protesters were burning the Daily Express building now that would be something I would condemn.
The 2011 riots were hardly the doings of a democratic party that has aspirations to control all aspects of our lives...
People are going to protest when they disagree strongly about something, whether we like it or not.
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse.
I can understand a riot, in a way. A mob can suddenly go nuts, the madness of crowds, stampede behaviour, etc.
What I can't understand is apparently sentient people who think singing "Tory scum" in close harmony, and menacing attendees at a political conference, is going to win over undecided voters.
'Sentient people' may be the problem. I've sometimes wondered whether we'd notice if one of our number wasn't strictly sentient. Perhaps the potential problem is a problem in reality, and on a far bigger scale than I could have ever imagined.
Perhaps all the protesters are right - democracy doesn't work. I would certainly admit that I don't really feel myself a fit and proper person to make a judgement about what the best economic plan is. The kicker is that when I speak to other people I realise that I know far more about the issue than they do. There are only a handful of people who I've ever spoken to that I feel have any insight into the issue full stop.
I think I believe that the best possible government system is one where almost everyone gets no say whatsoever. I'm completely certain that this is a system that I could never vote for though.
That means it is perfectly legitimate to protest the party who wants to implement their liberal democratic economic mandate without any political legitimacy. Even if it is nutty, incoherent, ridiculous and peurile, it is not anti-democratic.
I think that depends on what is being 'demanded' in the protest and, again, if those protesting could honestly say they would do the same or accept the same from those protesting against a government they liked. If they say the the government has no right or mandate to do what they are doing, they are simply wrong as our system has legitimacy (for all I support a change, I cannot accept your definition of the current system as lacking legitimacy), but are free to say it of course.
I don't see how you can make the claim that the UK is either democratic or that the current government has legitimacy.
Because people aren't in the streets rioting? This is exactly what the PB Tories are "outraged" about.
We have a system where one part of the government is elected but that system allows them full control of that with less than 40% of the vote. We have a head of state not one person in this country elected and a revising chamber where not one of the members is elected by the general population.
Not only does our system ensure that you can govern without a majority (or near majority given that a small percentage will always be excluded on the fringes) of the electorate but also where the normal checks and balances on power normally found in other countries do not exist due to the nature of the Lords and the constitutional role of the monarch.
If we had PR, we'd have a minority Conservative government, supported by UKIP, DUP, and UUP offering Confidence and Supply.
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse. People have a very low opinion of journalism world wide, spitting is nothing when people hate your guts anyway, if the protesters were burning the Daily Express building now that would be something I would condemn.
What a ridiculously stupid statement. Journalists should be allowed to do their job without being menaced and spat at.
And besides it is so enormously counter-productive. You need the media to get your message out. Gobbing phlegm at them doesn't assist.
@billiwilliams 5m5 minutes ago Heading in to Tory conference as a charity staffer is great fun. Not been called Tory scum for a while...
Journalists have been shot and bombed all the time in the past, being spat on by protesters who have a very low opinion of the profession is nothing.
If people have a very low opinion of journalism then inevitably they will show their feelings when passions run high. It's better they spit rather than use pitchforks.
I feel actively sorry for people like Southam - with whom I've had my run-ins, in the past. He's watching his party be swiftly overtaken by some genuinely nasty and deluded people. Must be quite heart-breaking, in truth.
Seconded, I don't always see eye to eye with him but he comes across as a genuine guy.
Re @kle4 - I'm sorry but I think you're talking a large degree of nonsense trying to find some equivalence between the way the Right and the Left behave. There weren't mounted police and squads of dogs outside the Labour conf to stop delegates being assaulted. There were pix of Corbyn sitting around on the steps outside - you'd never see that from a Tory leader even when not in HMG.
You don't get angry Righties carrying coffins of effigies of former Labour leaders or placards demanding their death or calling them scum.
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse. People have a very low opinion of journalism world wide, spitting is nothing when people hate your guts anyway, if the protesters were burning the Daily Express building now that would be something I would condemn.
The 2011 riots were hardly the doings of a democratic party that has aspirations to control all aspects of our lives...
People are going to protest when they disagree strongly about something, whether we like it or not.
The equivalence was mostly in relation to the abstract point about loonies on all sides who are tacitly supported by their respective mainstreams. That is undoubtedly the case. I accept, however, you don't get such protesters outside Labour events, as I believe I mentioned was not the case with their conference last week, and I said Labour's hands with this series of events was less clean than the Tories.
As a result of assuming your opponent are evil, then anything becomes possible. but first comes the selective blindness, the Torys only got 37% so are illegitimate, even thou the labour party twice won with less votes
Bizarre nonsense.
Labour were completely illegitimate as a government under Tony Blair.
I've never seen anyone argue that the current Tory government is illegitimate but somehow the Blair governments were fine. That is entirely in your addled brain.
Labour did far greater harm to the UK than the Tories ever will. The completely destruction of pensions, the firesale of business ownership and the obscene evil that is Child Tax Credits and Working Tax Credits.
And they did all this without any political legitimacy.
We only had an election 4 months ago - it makes the Left look childish sore losers.
Spitting on journalists and intimidating members of the public is never big or clever.
Re @kle4 - I'm sorry but I think you're talking a large degree of nonsense trying to find some equivalence between the way the Right and the Left behave. There weren't mounted police and squads of dogs outside the Labour conf to stop delegates being assaulted. There were pix of Corbyn sitting around on the steps outside - you'd never see that from a Tory leader even when not in HMG.
You don't get angry Righties carrying coffins of effigies of former Labour leaders or placards demanding their death or calling them scum.
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse. People have a very low opinion of journalism world wide, spitting is nothing when people hate your guts anyway, if the protesters were burning the Daily Express building now that would be something I would condemn.
The 2011 riots were hardly the doings of a democratic party that has aspirations to control all aspects of our lives...
People are going to protest when they disagree strongly about something, whether we like it or not.
I believe that is because the average age of Tories is 65, according to the opinion polls. So they are physically incapable of assaulting Labour delegates or protesting generally.
These things always happen because the Left is composed of young people who have high testosterone levels as opposed to high blood pressure pills.
Once again the left march against democracy. Corbyn and co really should be able to draw some sort of line between democratic opposition, and opposition to democracy. It seems they can't.
They are marching against a government which has absolute power based on 37% of the popular vote. The Tories do not have a democratic mandate.
Sigh, yet the argument never works in reverse if your preferred party are in power.
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse.
I can understand a riot, in a way. A mob can suddenly go nuts, the madness of crowds, stampede behaviour, etc.
What I can't understand is apparently sentient people who think singing "Tory scum" in close harmony, and menacing attendees at a political conference, is going to win over undecided voters.
I think I've spotted the flaw in your argument. You're using the term "sentient people" to describe those who have the intellect of amoeba.
We only had an election 4 months ago - it makes the Left look childish sore losers.
Spitting on journalists and intimidating members of the public is never big or clever.
Re @kle4 - I'm sorry but I think you're talking a large degree of nonsense trying to find some equivalence between the way the Right and the Left behave. There weren't mounted police and squads of dogs outside the Labour conf to stop delegates being assaulted. There were pix of Corbyn sitting around on the steps outside - you'd never see that from a Tory leader even when not in HMG.
You don't get angry Righties carrying coffins of effigies of former Labour leaders or placards demanding their death or calling them scum.
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse. People have a very low opinion of journalism world wide, spitting is nothing when people hate your guts anyway, if the protesters were burning the Daily Express building now that would be something I would condemn.
The 2011 riots were hardly the doings of a democratic party that has aspirations to control all aspects of our lives...
People are going to protest when they disagree strongly about something, whether we like it or not.
I believe that is because the average age of Tories is 65, according to the opinion polls. So they are physically incapable of assaulting Labour delegates or protesting generally.
These things always happen because the Left is composed of young people who have high testosterone levels as opposed to high blood pressure pills.
No, it happens because the loony left are largely composed of little shits.
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse. People have a very low opinion of journalism world wide, spitting is nothing when people hate your guts anyway, if the protesters were burning the Daily Express building now that would be something I would condemn.
The 2011 riots were hardly the doings of a democratic party that has aspirations to control all aspects of our lives...
People are going to protest when they disagree strongly about something, whether we like it or not.
Really? When did the Tories riot during 13 years of Labour trashing the economy? We tutted, raised our eyebrows - and waited for the democratic process to give us a chance to fix it.
Maybe we should have burnt Liverpool to the ground.....
As a result of assuming your opponent are evil, then anything becomes possible. but first comes the selective blindness, the Torys only got 37% so are illegitimate, even thou the labour party twice won with less votes
I've never seen anyone argue that the current Tory government is illegitimate but somehow the Blair governments were fine. That is entirely in your addled brain.
I do not recall, but were there mobs every year calling Blair's governments illegitimate on the basis of his vote percentages?
Not everyone is as principled as you on this issue - the type of person saying IDS is a mass murderer and decrying all Tories as scum, I think it is fair to predict would always protest the legitimacy of a Tory government but would not necessarily be as concerned at a Labour government with the same level of support, bearing in mind they also think they are the voice of the people without any level of the vote themselves.
Can anyone point me at any really compelling evidence that Assad is the monster he's alleged to be?
There are many bad things about his regime of course, but I just don't see the big anti Assad picture. He just seems a bit weak to me.
When he first came to power I thought that there was an enormous diplomatic opportunity. He's just a London dentist or some such after all. Then things went quiet, and now he's a 'butcher'.
I currently have no opinion other than I'd like more information.
Since you don't have to go far to find the anti (any mainstream Western media source), here's the pro:
Once again the left march against democracy. Corbyn and co really should be able to draw some sort of line between democratic opposition, and opposition to democracy. It seems they can't.
They are marching against a government which has absolute power based on 37% of the popular vote. The Tories do not have a democratic mandate.
Why is this always raised when Labour was in a similar position holding even less % yet with more seats yet it was rarely if ever mentioned and even today by the looks has been forgotten
And that was before we had a referendum about changing the system... There's even less excuse now.
There was no referendum on changing the system.
There was a referendum on changing the voting method to favour the third largest party. It was rightly rejected.
And no one has proposed changing the system in any meaningful way since, or if they have it has not received any democratic legitimacy in the form of that party winning an election and thus a mandate to make that change. As someone who likes electoral reform and discussions on voting systems, it's been a bit frustrating it's still so low on the public radar.
Perhaps it's low on the public radar because people don't much mind the current system (or don't mind as much as some people think they should).
Regrettably, that is probably the case - I regard that as public endorsement, albeit apathetic endorsement, of the current system, even if I think that endorsement is wrong. Others, I think unfairly, think the system is inherently unfair and thus is always illegitimate, though I'm confused how the people are supposed to demonstrate they accept the current system in any other way than passive acceptance (and increasing turnout 3 GEs in a row - if still low from historic highs - and lack of it being an issue for people, seems to be that)
It is fairly certain that Scotland would begin its independent life with an AMS electoral system, which is, in my mind far and away the best PR form of government giving "best of both worlds" links to constituencies while being generally proportional.
It is, again to me, the single biggest reason for Scottish Independence. You automatically start with a reasonably representative and legitimate electoral system.
We only had an election 4 months ago - it makes the Left look childish sore losers.
Spitting on journalists and intimidating members of the public is never big or clever.
Re @kle4 - I'm sorry but I think you're talking a large degree of nonsense trying to find some equivalence between the way the Right and the Left behave. There weren't mounted police and squads of dogs outside the Labour conf to stop delegates being assaulted. There were pix of Corbyn sitting around on the steps outside - you'd never see that from a Tory leader even when not in HMG.
You don't get angry Righties carrying coffins of effigies of former Labour leaders or placards demanding their death or calling them scum.
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse. People have a very low opinion of journalism world wide, spitting is nothing when people hate your guts anyway, if the protesters were burning the Daily Express building now that would be something I would condemn.
The 2011 riots were hardly the doings of a democratic party that has aspirations to control all aspects of our lives...
People are going to protest when they disagree strongly about something, whether we like it or not.
I believe that is because the average age of Tories is 65, according to the opinion polls. So they are physically incapable of assaulting Labour delegates or protesting generally.
These things always happen because the Left is composed of young people who have high testosterone levels as opposed to high blood pressure pills.
No, it happens because the loony left are largely composed of little shits.
We only had an election 4 months ago - it makes the Left look childish sore losers.
Spitting on journalists and intimidating members of the public is never big or clever.
Re @kle4 - I'm sorry but I think you're talking a large degree of nonsense trying to find some equivalence between the way the Right and the Left behave. There weren't mounted police and squads of dogs outside the Labour conf to stop delegates being assaulted. There were pix of Corbyn sitting around on the steps outside - you'd never see that from a Tory leader even when not in HMG.
You don't get angry Righties carrying coffins of effigies of former Labour leaders or placards demanding their death or calling them scum.
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse. People have a very low opinion of journalism world wide, spitting is nothing when people hate your guts anyway, if the protesters were burning the Daily Express building now that would be something I would condemn.
The 2011 riots were hardly the doings of a democratic party that has aspirations to control all aspects of our lives...
People are going to protest when they disagree strongly about something, whether we like it or not.
I believe that is because the average age of Tories is 65, according to the opinion polls. So they are physically incapable of assaulting Labour delegates or protesting generally.
These things always happen because the Left is composed of young people who have high testosterone levels as opposed to high blood pressure pills.
Once again the left march against democracy. Corbyn and co really should be able to draw some sort of line between democratic opposition, and opposition to democracy. It seems they can't.
They are marching against a government which has absolute power based on 37% of the popular vote. The Tories do not have a democratic mandate.
But they have more of a mandate than the protesters. That is how our liberal democratic system works.
I'm not defending the nutjobs. They are what they are.
I'm merely pointing out that they cannot be claimed to be opposing democracy because the United Kingdom is not a democracy and any legitimacy of the government is purely accidental when it occurs.
And currently it hasn't occurred and the government is not legitimate.
So where there has been a majority deciding something by referendum 'for a generation', you respect that, correct?
Unfortunately for you that was not the question asked.
The question asked was asked on a particular day at a particular time. Much as other elections such as General Elections. As such it should be repeated automatically on a reasonable time scale of every four or five years.
1) Unfortunately for me? Would save England (and particularly the South of England) a fortune if the Scots had said yes. And would guarantee Tory majority for 30+ years. Good for the country, good for my wallet.
2) What a load of guff. There is no precedent for frequent referendums on ANY issue, let alone a constitutional change as significant as independence.
Nationalism really doesn't kid anyone with this false attempt at always being on the side of righteousness. Your cause is as partisan as anyone elses
Once again the left march against democracy. Corbyn and co really should be able to draw some sort of line between democratic opposition, and opposition to democracy. It seems they can't.
They are marching against a government which has absolute power based on 37% of the popular vote. The Tories do not have a democratic mandate.
Why is this always raised when Labour was in a similar position holding even less % yet with more seats yet it was rarely if ever mentioned and even today by the looks has been forgotten
And that was before we had a referendum about changing the system... There's even less excuse now.
There was no referendum on changing the system.
There was a referendum on changing the voting method to favour the third largest party. It was rightly rejected.
And no one has proposed changing the system in any meaningful way since, or if they have it has not received any democratic legitimacy in the form of that party winning an election and thus a mandate to make that change. As someone who likes electoral reform and discussions on voting systems, it's been a bit frustrating it's still so low on the public radar.
Perhaps it's low on the public radar because people don't much mind the current system (or don't mind as much as some people think they should).
Regrettably, that is probably the case - I regard that as public endorsement, albeit apathetic endorsement, of the current system, even if I think that endorsement is wrong. Others, I think unfairly, think the system is inherently unfair and thus is always illegitimate, though I'm confused how the people are supposed to demonstrate they accept the current system in any other way than passive acceptance (and increasing turnout 3 GEs in a row - if still low from historic highs - and lack of it being an issue for people, seems to be that)
It is fairly certain that Scotland would begin its independent life with an AMS electoral system, which is, in my mind far and away the best PR form of government giving "best of both worlds" links to constituencies while being generally proportional.
It is, again to me, the single biggest reason for Scottish Independence. You automatically start with a reasonably representative and legitimate electoral system.
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse. People have a very low opinion of journalism world wide, spitting is nothing when people hate your guts anyway, if the protesters were burning the Daily Express building now that would be something I would condemn.
The 2011 riots were hardly the doings of a democratic party that has aspirations to control all aspects of our lives...
People are going to protest when they disagree strongly about something, whether we like it or not.
Really? When did the Tories riot during 13 years of Labour trashing the economy? We tutted, raised our eyebrows - and waited for the democratic process to give us a chance to fix it.
Maybe we should have burnt Liverpool to the ground.....
Tories didn't riot because they are too old and frail to do so, that is why during the 13 years of New Labour the ones who protested against that government were still the lefties.
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse. People have a very low opinion of journalism world wide, spitting is nothing when people hate your guts anyway, if the protesters were burning the Daily Express building now that would be something I would condemn.
The 2011 riots were hardly the doings of a democratic party that has aspirations to control all aspects of our lives...
People are going to protest when they disagree strongly about something, whether we like it or not.
Really? When did the Tories riot during 13 years of Labour trashing the economy? We tutted, raised our eyebrows - and waited for the democratic process to give us a chance to fix it.
Maybe we should have burnt Liverpool to the ground.....
The left rioted a lot. Tories didn't even know what they thought in most of the 13 years, a bit like Labour in the last five (who didn't riot either).
We only had an election 4 months ago - it makes the Left look childish sore losers.
Spitting on journalists and intimidating members of the public is never big or clever.
Re @kle4 - I'm sorry but I think you're talking a large degree of nonsense trying to find some equivalence between the way the Right and the Left behave. There weren't mounted police and squads of dogs outside the Labour conf to stop delegates being assaulted. There were pix of Corbyn sitting around on the steps outside - you'd never see that from a Tory leader even when not in HMG.
You don't get angry Righties carrying coffins of effigies of former Labour leaders or placards demanding their death or calling them scum.
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse. People have a very low opinion of journalism world wide, spitting is nothing when people hate your guts anyway, if the protesters were burning the Daily Express building now that would be something I would condemn.
The 2011 riots were hardly the doings of a democratic party that has aspirations to control all aspects of our lives...
People are going to protest when they disagree strongly about something, whether we like it or not.
I believe that is because the average age of Tories is 65, according to the opinion polls. So they are physically incapable of assaulting Labour delegates or protesting generally.
These things always happen because the Left is composed of young people who have high testosterone levels as opposed to high blood pressure pills.
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse. People have a very low opinion of journalism world wide, spitting is nothing when people hate your guts anyway, if the protesters were burning the Daily Express building now that would be something I would condemn.
The 2011 riots were hardly the doings of a democratic party that has aspirations to control all aspects of our lives...
People are going to protest when they disagree strongly about something, whether we like it or not.
Really? When did the Tories riot during 13 years of Labour trashing the economy? We tutted, raised our eyebrows - and waited for the democratic process to give us a chance to fix it.
Maybe we should have burnt Liverpool to the ground.....
Tories didn't riot because they are too old and frail to do so, that is why during the 13 years of New Labour the ones who protested against that government were still the lefties.
You really are descending into the cesspit of crass....
We only had an election 4 months ago - it makes the Left look childish sore losers.
Spitting on journalists and intimidating members of the public is never big or clever.
Re @kle4 - I'm sorry but I think you're talking a large degree of nonsense trying to find some equivalence between the way the Right and the Left behave. There weren't mounted police and squads of dogs outside the Labour conf to stop delegates being assaulted. There were pix of Corbyn sitting around on the steps outside - you'd never see that from a Tory leader even when not in HMG.
You don't get angry Righties carrying coffins of effigies of former Labour leaders or placards demanding their death or calling them scum.
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse. People have a very low opinion of journalism world wide, spitting is nothing when people hate your guts anyway, if the protesters were burning the Daily Express building now that would be something I would condemn.
The 2011 riots were hardly the doings of a democratic party that has aspirations to control all aspects of our lives...
People are going to protest when they disagree strongly about something, whether we like it or not.
I believe that is because the average age of Tories is 65, according to the opinion polls. So they are physically incapable of assaulting Labour delegates or protesting generally.
These things always happen because the Left is composed of young people who have high testosterone levels as opposed to high blood pressure pills.
"physically incapable of assaulting Labour delegates or protesting generally."
Do you really think that political protest is some sort of physical completion?
The average age of Tories is clearly much higher than Labour supporters because they are much less likely to shoot themselves in the feet.
Can anyone point me at any really compelling evidence that Assad is the monster he's alleged to be?
There are many bad things about his regime of course, but I just don't see the big anti Assad picture. He just seems a bit weak to me.
When he first came to power I thought that there was an enormous diplomatic opportunity. He's just a London dentist or some such after all. Then things went quiet, and now he's a 'butcher'.
I currently have no opinion other than I'd like more information.
Since you don't have to go far to find the anti (any mainstream Western media source), here's the pro:
I've seen the pro-Assad case. It's clearly just nonsense. What worries me is that the anti-Assad case might be similar nonsense.
That depends what case you refer to. If the case is whether to award Assad a Nobel Peace Prize, the 'pro' case may well be nonsense. If the case is whether he is Syria's least worst option, it's not nonsense.
Can anyone point me at any really compelling evidence that Assad is the monster he's alleged to be?
There are many bad things about his regime of course, but I just don't see the big anti Assad picture. He just seems a bit weak to me.
When he first came to power I thought that there was an enormous diplomatic opportunity. He's just a London dentist or some such after all. Then things went quiet, and now he's a 'butcher'.
I currently have no opinion other than I'd like more information.
Since you don't have to go far to find the anti (any mainstream Western media source), here's the pro:
Matthew Wilson If you think being advised to pretend your not a conservative in a city is justified in 21st century liberal UK, what Is going on? #CPC15
Can anyone point me at any really compelling evidence that Assad is the monster he's alleged to be?
There are many bad things about his regime of course, but I just don't see the big anti Assad picture. He just seems a bit weak to me.
When he first came to power I thought that there was an enormous diplomatic opportunity. He's just a London dentist or some such after all. Then things went quiet, and now he's a 'butcher'.
I currently have no opinion other than I'd like more information.
Since you don't have to go far to find the anti (any mainstream Western media source), here's the pro:
With rare exceptions, 'mainstream' media is code for 'media I don't agree with' most of the time. I particularly like when very popular media outlets and personalities undoubtedly a part of the mainstream, paint themselves as somehow not part of the mainstream, just because they are out of step with some others. It's like Jeb Bush trying to present as a political outsider to Washington.
We only had an election 4 months ago - it makes the Left look childish sore losers.
Spitting on journalists and intimidating members of the public is never big or clever.
Re @kle4 - I'm sorry but I think you're talking a large degree of nonsense trying to find some equivalence between the way the Right and the Left behave. There weren't mounted police and squads of dogs outside the Labour conf to stop delegates being assaulted. There were pix of Corbyn sitting around on the steps outside - you'd never see that from a Tory leader even when not in HMG.
You don't get angry Righties carrying coffins of effigies of former Labour leaders or placards demanding their death or calling them scum.
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse. People have a very low opinion of journalism world wide, spitting is nothing when people hate your guts anyway, if the protesters were burning the Daily Express building now that would be something I would condemn.
The 2011 riots were hardly the doings of a democratic party that has aspirations to control all aspects of our lives...
People are going to protest when they disagree strongly about something, whether we like it or not.
I believe that is because the average age of Tories is 65, according to the opinion polls. So they are physically incapable of assaulting Labour delegates or protesting generally.
These things always happen because the Left is composed of young people who have high testosterone levels as opposed to high blood pressure pills.
"physically incapable of assaulting Labour delegates or protesting generally."
Do you really think that political protest is some sort of physical completion?
The average age of Tories is clearly much higher than Labour supporters because they are much less likely to shoot themselves in the feet.
The average age of protesters is always young, and yes protesting usually has high chances of getting physical. Watch carefully at the age of the protesters and their need for physical completion:
Can anyone point me at any really compelling evidence that Assad is the monster he's alleged to be?
There are many bad things about his regime of course, but I just don't see the big anti Assad picture. He just seems a bit weak to me.
When he first came to power I thought that there was an enormous diplomatic opportunity. He's just a London dentist or some such after all. Then things went quiet, and now he's a 'butcher'.
I currently have no opinion other than I'd like more information.
Since you don't have to go far to find the anti (any mainstream Western media source), here's the pro:
Indeed - I've seen the C4 coverage showing all sorts of 'normal' people (worryingly so) having an upbeat chant of "Tory scum, out out out"
Owen Jones ✔ @OwenJones84 Vast majority of protestors today were super friendly and upbeat, basically a family day out. The ones who weren't need to learn from them.
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse. People have a very low opinion of journalism world wide, spitting is nothing when people hate your guts anyway, if the protesters were burning the Daily Express building now that would be something I would condemn.
The 2011 riots were hardly the doings of a democratic party that has aspirations to control all aspects of our lives...
People are going to protest when they disagree strongly about something, whether we like it or not.
I believe that is because the average age of Tories is 65, according to the opinion polls. So they are physically incapable of assaulting Labour delegates or protesting generally.
These things always happen because the Left is composed of young people who have high testosterone levels as opposed to high blood pressure pills.
"physically incapable of assaulting Labour delegates or protesting generally."
Do you really think that political protest is some sort of physical completion?
The average age of Tories is clearly much higher than Labour supporters because they are much less likely to shoot themselves in the feet.
The average age of protesters is always young, and yes protesting usually has high chances of getting physical. Watch carefully at the age of the protesters and their need for physical completion:
Can anyone point me at any really compelling evidence that Assad is the monster he's alleged to be?
There are many bad things about his regime of course, but I just don't see the big anti Assad picture. He just seems a bit weak to me.
When he first came to power I thought that there was an enormous diplomatic opportunity. He's just a London dentist or some such after all. Then things went quiet, and now he's a 'butcher'.
I currently have no opinion other than I'd like more information.
Since you don't have to go far to find the anti (any mainstream Western media source), here's the pro:
Matthew Wilson If you think being advised to pretend your not a conservative in a city is justified in 21st century liberal UK, what Is going on? #CPC15
"what is going on?"
As I analyzed in the week after the GE, Britain has become an extreme polarized country, geographically and by age. There now exist 2 distinctively different societies with little in common and little interaction between them, each thinking the other is pure evil.
There are 2 different worlds now, a pensioner living in the countryside and a non pensioner living in the cities who have a diametrically opposite view on everything, different behaviour and colliding interests.
So yes if you are a Tory in today's Britain you are no longer welcome in the cities by the average person living there, and if you are a Labourite you are no longer welcome in the countryside by the average person living there.
As unlikely as a Corbyn win might seem, does anyone else think an actual 'Corbyn victory party' at the Tory conference is probably a bad idea? Fate has already been tempted by ToriesForCorbyn, but to borrow from Sir Terry Pratchett, that's like laying down on the bed saying 'take me, fate, you big stud'.
Matthew Wilson If you think being advised to pretend your not a conservative in a city is justified in 21st century liberal UK, what Is going on? #CPC15
So yes if you are a Tory in today's Britain you are no longer welcome in the cities by the average person living there, and if you are a Labourite you are no longer welcome in the countryside by the average person living there.
As someone in the Tory shires, I think the reaction to a Labourite popping by would be more confusion and surprise, like a nature photographer in the Savannah coming across a rare type of whale, rather than anger.
Matthew Wilson If you think being advised to pretend your not a conservative in a city is justified in 21st century liberal UK, what Is going on? #CPC15
"what is going on?"
As I analyzed in the week after the GE, Britain has become an extreme polarized country, geographically and by age. There now exist 2 distinctively different societies with little in common and little interaction between them, each thinking the other is pure evil.
There are 2 different worlds now, a pensioner living in the countryside and a non pensioner living in the cities who have a diametrically opposite view on everything, different behaviour and colliding interests.
So yes if you are a Tory in today's Britain you are no longer welcome in the cities by the average person living there, and if you are a Labourite you are no longer welcome in the countryside by the average person living there.
If you're Labour you're not welcome in Scotland. Or pretty much anywhere south of Chester, outside London.
Matthew Wilson If you think being advised to pretend your not a conservative in a city is justified in 21st century liberal UK, what Is going on? #CPC15
"what is going on?"
As I analyzed in the week after the GE, Britain has become an extreme polarized country, geographically and by age. There now exist 2 distinctively different societies with little in common and little interaction between them, each thinking the other is pure evil.
There are 2 different worlds now, a pensioner living in the countryside and a non pensioner living in the cities who have a diametrically opposite view on everything, different behaviour and colliding interests.
So yes if you are a Tory in today's Britain you are no longer welcome in the cities by the average person living there, and if you are a Labourite you are no longer welcome in the countryside by the average person living there.
As unlikely as a Corbyn win might seem, does anyone else think an actual 'Corbyn victory party' at the Tory conference is probably a bad idea? Fate has already been tempted by ToriesForCorbyn, but to borrow from Sir Terry Pratchett, that's like laying down on the bed saying 'take me, fate, you big stud'.
Thank goodness the pro-hunting and fuel protest mobs didn't turn up in Manchester, or it would have got nasty.
If anyone thinks that the nutters who accosted Crick have anything to do with Labour they need to get a grip.
They will probably vote Labour now. I don't doubt the Labour Party itself does not support such things, but the sentiment which leads to their behaviour is tacitly supported by many within it. Everyone likes to make use of idiots when they can, though some of these types, if not nearly as many, would it is true probably protest a Labour government (now that we know how Tory some in Labour can be).
Can anyone point me at any really compelling evidence that Assad is the monster he's alleged to be?
There are many bad things about his regime of course, but I just don't see the big anti Assad picture. He just seems a bit weak to me.
When he first came to power I thought that there was an enormous diplomatic opportunity. He's just a London dentist or some such after all. Then things went quiet, and now he's a 'butcher'.
I currently have no opinion other than I'd like more information.
Since you don't have to go far to find the anti (any mainstream Western media source), here's the pro:
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse.
I can understand a riot, in a way. A mob can suddenly go nuts, the madness of crowds, stampede behaviour, etc.
What I can't understand is apparently sentient people who think singing "Tory scum" in close harmony, and menacing attendees at a political conference, is going to win over undecided voters.
Undecided voters are also Tory Scum to them.
Indeed, BigRich up thread just also outlined very well the mentality of The left.
The left were defeated in May. The left do not accept the democratic mandate of the ballot box, they never will unless it favours them and when it does no talk of %'s then . This has become for them .....you are either for us or against us.
I am waiting for the more sensible of the Labour Party to condemn what's been happening but as yet nothing. I am very surprised as I though at least some would have done so. There are a number of decent MPs in that party but their collective silence condemns them equally with these on the streets.
The labour left on this forum also refuse any condemnation or even criticism of these thousands of left wing anarchists in Manchester despite their appalling and disgusting behaviour. Meanwhile Corbyn is to overthrow convention and attend Manchester tomorrow to stir the pot further. Is this the kinder politics he referred too? He is against war yet seems happy to allow a war on our streets?
If any one had any doubts previously including the journos.. labour really are now the nasty party in fact I would go further they are the despicable party.
Vile leftist propaganda from the quasi-marxist manchester police: "Today around 60,000 people took part in a demonstration and I would like to thank them for their cooperation. The overwhelming majority of people have exercised their democratic right to protest with dignity and good grace. The fact that only four arrests have been made throughout the day so far was particularly pleasing.”
Vile leftist propaganda from the quasi-marxist manchester police: "Today around 60,000 people took part in a demonstration and I would like to thank them for their cooperation. The overwhelming majority of people have exercised their democratic right to protest with dignity and good grace. The fact that only four arrests have been made throughout the day so far was particularly pleasing.”
Good news - doesn't mean a lot of their bile wasn't self defeating and pathetic. I want Tory policies that need opposing focused on, not dismissed because a rabble rant and shout about everything the Tories do, making any specific complaint easy to ignore.
Thank goodness the pro-hunting and fuel protest mobs didn't turn up in Manchester, or it would have got nasty.
If anyone thinks that the nutters who accosted Crick have anything to do with Labour they need to get a grip.
They will probably vote Labour now. I don't doubt the Labour Party itself does not support such things, but the sentiment which leads to their behaviour is tacitly supported by many within it. Everyone likes to make use of idiots when they can, though some of these types, if not nearly as many, would it is true probably protest a Labour government (now that we know how Tory some in Labour can be).
The woman Crick interviewed who responded "Do I look like f-ing Labour?!" won't be voting for us soon.
The Tories certainly make use of plenty of useful idiots. Those who vote Conservative to their own detriment.
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse.
I can understand a riot, in a way. A mob can suddenly go nuts, the madness of crowds, stampede behaviour, etc.
What I can't understand is apparently sentient people who think singing "Tory scum" in close harmony, and menacing attendees at a political conference, is going to win over undecided voters.
Undecided voters are also Tory Scum to them.
Indeed, BigRich up thread just also outlined very well the mentality of The left.
The left were defeated in May. The left do not accept the democratic mandate of the ballot box, they never will unless it favours them and when it does no talk of %'s then . This has become for them .....you are either for us or against us.
I am waiting for the more sensible of the Labour Party to condemn what's been happening but as yet nothing. I am very surprised as I though at least some would have done so. There are a number of decent MPs in that party but their collective silence condemns them equally with these on the streets.
The labour left on this forum also refuse any condemnation or even criticism of these thousands of left wing anarchists in Manchester despite their appalling and disgusting behaviour. Meanwhile Corbyn is to overthrow convention and attend Manchester tomorrow to stir the pot further. Is this the kinder politics he referred too? He is against war yet seems happy to allow a war on our streets?
If any one had any doubts previously including the journos.. labour really are now the nasty party in fact I would go further they are the despicable party.
Look at it this way. Why interrupt your opponent when he's machine-gunning himself in the foot?
The nonsense we've seen on here today, and the recent Yougov polling showing rightists to be a bunch of self-regarding sanctimonious moralisers who believe they are morally superior to others, combine to paint a picture that backs up my thesis that if anyone are chronic and intractable 'virtue signallers' it is the right.
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were ing I would condemn.
The 2011 riots were hardly the doings of a democratic party that has aspirations to control all aspects of our lives...
ö People are going to protest when they disagree strongly about something, whether we like it or not.
Maybe we should have burnt Liverpool to the ground.....
The pro hunting march and fuel protest march got a little violent but the left tend to be more aggressive and anarchist. Of course today's clips should have added another point or two to the Tory lead so Tories should take them as a badge of honour the more power the party has the more violent the hard left will be
The nonsense we've seen on here today, and the recent Yougov polling showing rightists to be a bunch of self-regarding sanctimonious moralisers who believe they are morally superior to others, combine to paint a picture that backs up my thesis that if anyone are chronic and intractable 'virtue signallers' it is the right.
Matthew Wilson If you think being advised to pretend your not a conservative in a city is justified in 21st century liberal UK, what Is going on? #CPC15
"what is going on?"
As I analyzed in the week after the GE, Britain has become an extreme polarized country, geographically and by age. There now exist 2 distinctively different societies with little in common and little interaction between them, each thinking the other is pure evil.
There are 2 different worlds now, a pensioner living in the countryside and a non pensioner living in the cities who have a diametrically opposite view on everything, different behaviour and colliding interests.
So yes if you are a Tory in today's Britain you are no longer welcome in the cities by the average person living there, and if you are a Labourite you are no longer welcome in the countryside by the average person living there.
If you're Labour you're not welcome in Scotland. Or pretty much anywhere south of Chester, outside London.
It seems you are in agreement with my thesis.
I am in agreement, I just think you;re on the wrong side of the dichotomy. Polls show the rightwing vote is now around 50%, and Corbynism will drive kippers to the Tories, in fear of your scummy leftwing rabble.
Well I believe that you are too on the wrong side of the dichotomy, that's the whole point of my 2 societies in one country thesis. And I also agree that Corbyn will drive kippers to the Tories but only if the next election looks close (a problem since not many believe in opinion polls anymore).
Corbyn can neutralize that problem if he addresses the social issues, most people vote UKIP because of social problems like immigration and the culture wars, Corbyn can offer them socialism just without the immigrants.
Thank goodness the pro-hunting and fuel protest mobs didn't turn up in Manchester, or it would have got nasty.
If anyone thinks that the nutters who accosted Crick have anything to do with Labour they need to get a grip.
'The overwhelming majority of people have exercised their democratic right to protest with dignity and good grace.'
The quasi-marxist Manchester Police.
Has anybody said that the majority didn't behave well? From what I've read the majority of people are commenting on how the cretins are diverting attention from the people who deserve to be heard. Sorry that doesn't fit with your straw man, but it's a fact.
Vile leftist propaganda from the quasi-marxist manchester police: "Today around 60,000 people took part in a demonstration and I would like to thank them for their cooperation. The overwhelming majority of people have exercised their democratic right to protest with dignity and good grace. The fact that only four arrests have been made throughout the day so far was particularly pleasing.”
60k lefties more law abiding than a few hundred Union flag waving supporters of the UK. Who'd have thunk?
I see these left wing protesters in Manchester were throwing eggs at Conservative members leaving the conference. This just shows how despicable this strand of the left is: they do not accept the results of a democratic election, and believe they can respond with abuse and violence to innocent civilians. Labour can not pretend they are against this sort of thing, as he coddles up to far more nasty types like the IRA and Hamas as long as they oppose the West.
Thank goodness the pro-hunting and fuel protest mobs didn't turn up in Manchester, or it would have got nasty.
If anyone thinks that the nutters who accosted Crick have anything to do with Labour they need to get a grip.
They will probably vote Labour now. I don't doubt the Labour Party itself does not support such things, but the sentiment which leads to their behaviour is tacitly supported by many within it. Everyone likes to make use of idiots when they can, though some of these types, if not nearly as many, would it is true probably protest a Labour government (now that we know how Tory some in Labour can be).
The woman Crick interviewed who responded "Do I look like f-ing Labour?!" won't be voting for us soon.
The Tories certainly make use of plenty of useful idiots. Those who vote Conservative to their own detriment.
If the only people the Tories help are the rich, that's millions of useful idiots though!
JWisemann Some on the right definitely believe they are morally superior to the Left. Sadly, that is partisan behaviour though no matter where on the nonsense spectrum you fall. Some groups are much more obvious about feeling they are morally superior however - far left groups generally seem to not hide their contempt for others nor as moral as them.
Let us not forget, Trotskyism is a tool of the capitalists!
The Scottish Tories are undertaking a membership drive in advance of their regional list election, with voting papers due to go out during November. Until then you can join the Party or register as a supporter for free and still be eligible to vote !! - Given how well things went for Labour this seems to be a bizarre turn of events and could cause havoc as a small number of infiltrators could make quite a difference.
The people being spat at and called 'tory scum' are in some cases left leaning journalists.
One protester was saying on the news she was demanding this country remain a democracy. Well if that's the case they should respect the fact the country voted for right wing governance just a few months ago.
The Scottish Tories are undertaking a membership drive in advance of their regional list election, with voting papers due to go out during November. Until then you can join the Party or register as a supporter for free and still be eligible to vote !! - Given how well things went for Labour this seems to be a bizarre turn of events and could cause havoc as a small number of infiltrators could make quite a difference.
The people being spat at and called 'tory scum' are in some cases left leaning journalists.
One protester was saying on the news she was demanding this country remain a democracy. Well if that's the case they should respect the fact the country voted for right wing governance just a few months ago.
When was that? The Tories got 36 or so % of the vote in the election in May!
Seemed to be a lot nastier than 2013 when it was more fun. Last time we got the very catchy "The Tories, putting the N in cuts" but today anyone who looked like a Tory or didn't agree with the protesters was a target.
It felt like they might attack Man City fans for being Tories because they were wearing blue
I've seen worse, and the country has seen worse, the 2011 riots were much worse.
I can understand a riot, in a way. A mob can suddenly go nuts, the madness of crowds, stampede behaviour, etc.
What I can't understand is apparently sentient people who think singing "Tory scum" in close harmony, and menacing attendees at a political conference, is going to win over undecided voters.
Undecided voters are also Tory Scum to them.
Indeed, BigRich up thread just also outlined very well the mentality of The left.
The left were defeated in May. The left do not accept the democratic mandate of the ballot box, they never will unless it favours them and when it does no talk of %'s then . This has become for them .....you are either for us or against us.
I am waiting for the more sensible of the Labour Party to condemn what's been happening but as yet nothing. I am very surprised as I though at least some would have done so. There are a number of decent MPs in that party but their collective silence condemns them equally with these on the streets.
The labour left on this forum also refuse any condemnation or even criticism of these thousands of left wing anarchists in Manchester despite their appalling and disgusting behaviour. Meanwhile Corbyn is to overthrow convention and attend Manchester tomorrow to stir the pot further. Is this the kinder politics he referred too? He is against war yet seems happy to allow a war on our streets?
If any one had any doubts previously including the journos.. labour really are now the nasty party in fact I would go further they are the despicable party.
Southam has made his feelings about the current loony Labour party and their hangers on very clear.
The people being spat at and called 'tory scum' are in some cases left leaning journalists.
One protester was saying on the news she was demanding this country remain a democracy. Well if that's the case they should respect the fact the country voted for right wing governance just a few months ago.
Except of course they didnt, it is only the completely undemocratic system that gives a minority absolute power. As polling shows, most UKIP voters want left wing economic policies, if you fancy digging out that canard.
Comments
If people have a very low opinion of journalism then inevitably they will show their feelings when passions run high.
It's better they spit rather than use pitchforks.
http://friendsofsyria.info/index.php/support-in-syria/
Spitting on journalists and intimidating members of the public is never big or clever.
Re @kle4 - I'm sorry but I think you're talking a large degree of nonsense trying to find some equivalence between the way the Right and the Left behave. There weren't mounted police and squads of dogs outside the Labour conf to stop delegates being assaulted. There were pix of Corbyn sitting around on the steps outside - you'd never see that from a Tory leader even when not in HMG.
You don't get angry Righties carrying coffins of effigies of former Labour leaders or placards demanding their death or calling them scum.
It's simply unheard of.
BTW thinking about Murali's comment down thread is he really saying that spitting at people is the lesser of two evils (so ok)?
A new kind of politics indeed
Perhaps all the protesters are right - democracy doesn't work. I would certainly admit that I don't really feel myself a fit and proper person to make a judgement about what the best economic plan is. The kicker is that when I speak to other people I realise that I know far more about the issue than they do. There are only a handful of people who I've ever spoken to that I feel have any insight into the issue full stop.
I think I believe that the best possible government system is one where almost everyone gets no say whatsoever. I'm completely certain that this is a system that I could never vote for though.
Wow.
Labour were completely illegitimate as a government under Tony Blair.
I've never seen anyone argue that the current Tory government is illegitimate but somehow the Blair governments were fine. That is entirely in your addled brain.
Labour did far greater harm to the UK than the Tories ever will. The completely destruction of pensions, the firesale of business ownership and the obscene evil that is Child Tax Credits and Working Tax Credits.
And they did all this without any political legitimacy.
So they are physically incapable of assaulting Labour delegates or protesting generally.
These things always happen because the Left is composed of young people who have high testosterone levels as opposed to high blood pressure pills.
That would be worse in some ways than Gordon's trip to see the troops during the Tory one a few years back
Maybe we should have burnt Liverpool to the ground.....
Liverpool sack manager Brendan Rodgers with immediate effect.
Not everyone is as principled as you on this issue - the type of person saying IDS is a mass murderer and decrying all Tories as scum, I think it is fair to predict would always protest the legitimacy of a Tory government but would not necessarily be as concerned at a Labour government with the same level of support, bearing in mind they also think they are the voice of the people without any level of the vote themselves.
I've seen the pro-Assad case. It's clearly just nonsense. What worries me is that the anti-Assad case might be similar nonsense.
It is, again to me, the single biggest reason for Scottish Independence. You automatically start with a reasonably representative and legitimate electoral system.
http://www.poynter.org/news/mediawire/339619/journalists-attacked-and-injured-in-baltimore-riots/
2) What a load of guff. There is no precedent for frequent referendums on ANY issue, let alone a constitutional change as significant as independence.
Nationalism really doesn't kid anyone with this false attempt at always being on the side of righteousness. Your cause is as partisan as anyone elses
Do you really think that political protest is some sort of physical completion?
The average age of Tories is clearly much higher than Labour supporters because they are much less likely to shoot themselves in the feet.
As for the anti: how about Amnesty - do you call them a 'mainstream Western media source' ?:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/10/renewed-diplomacy-must-not-ignore-justice-for-war-crimes-in-syria/
And for a 'mainstream Western media source': the Guardian's take of an exhibition of photos at the UN:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/20/evidence-industrial-scale-killing-syria-war-crimes
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/11/images-syrian-torture-shock-new-yorkers-united-nations
If you think being advised to pretend your not a conservative in a city is justified in 21st century liberal UK, what Is going on? #CPC15
Carragher "Liverpool are becoming Tottenham. They think they are a big club but the real big clubs aren’t concerned about what they do."
Watch carefully at the age of the protesters and their need for physical completion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3nYGoppmoA
DPJHodges @torydom I'm sat in a police station waiting to I've a statement after being hit by one of them.
@torydom @DPJHodges taking a short cut around the protests, woman came up to me and hit me in the mouth. Unexpected!
www.youtube.com/user/SyrianGirlpartisan
Owen Jones ✔ @OwenJones84
Vast majority of protestors today were super friendly and upbeat, basically a family day out. The ones who weren't need to learn from them.
Deluded Brendan @DeludedBrendan
And don't worry this account won't be going anywhere. I'll still be here when Real Madrid FC come knocking.
Failing that Newcastle will do
As I analyzed in the week after the GE, Britain has become an extreme polarized country, geographically and by age.
There now exist 2 distinctively different societies with little in common and little interaction between them, each thinking the other is pure evil.
There are 2 different worlds now, a pensioner living in the countryside and a non pensioner living in the cities who have a diametrically opposite view on everything, different behaviour and colliding interests.
So yes if you are a Tory in today's Britain you are no longer welcome in the cities by the average person living there, and if you are a Labourite you are no longer welcome in the countryside by the average person living there.
If anyone thinks that the nutters who accosted Crick have anything to do with Labour they need to get a grip.
The left were defeated in May. The left do not accept the democratic mandate of the ballot box, they never will unless it favours them and when it does no talk of %'s then . This has become for them .....you are either for us or against us.
I am waiting for the more sensible of the Labour Party to condemn what's been happening but as yet nothing. I am very surprised as I though at least some would have done so. There are a number of decent MPs in that party but their collective silence condemns them equally with these on the streets.
The labour left on this forum also refuse any condemnation or even criticism of these thousands of left wing anarchists in Manchester despite their appalling and disgusting behaviour. Meanwhile Corbyn is to overthrow convention and attend Manchester tomorrow to stir the pot further. Is this the kinder politics he referred too? He is against war yet seems happy to allow a war on our streets?
If any one had any doubts previously including the journos.. labour really are now the nasty party in fact I would go further they are the despicable party.
"Today around 60,000 people took part in a demonstration and I would like to thank them for their cooperation. The overwhelming majority of people have exercised their democratic right to protest with dignity and good grace. The fact that only four arrests have been made throughout the day so far was particularly pleasing.”
https://twitter.com/FrankFontaine2
The quasi-marxist Manchester Police.
The Tories certainly make use of plenty of useful idiots. Those who vote Conservative to their own detriment.
https://twitter.com/wiltshire544
Quote"You are just another Tory C+nt trying to use Corbyn to silence critics of your Nazi doctrine. Die somewhere quietly. "
This is excellent.
And I also agree that Corbyn will drive kippers to the Tories but only if the next election looks close (a problem since not many believe in opinion polls anymore).
Corbyn can neutralize that problem if he addresses the social issues, most people vote UKIP because of social problems like immigration and the culture wars, Corbyn can offer them socialism just without the immigrants.
JWisemann Some on the right definitely believe they are morally superior to the Left. Sadly, that is partisan behaviour though no matter where on the nonsense spectrum you fall. Some groups are much more obvious about feeling they are morally superior however - far left groups generally seem to not hide their contempt for others nor as moral as them.
Let us not forget, Trotskyism is a tool of the capitalists!
http://www.scottishconservatives.com/get-involved/join-us/
http://www.scottishconservatives.com/get-involved/pledge-your-support/
Edit, And almost no one behaves well.
https://vine.co/#/v/e2OFtXVuh2V
Despite the desperate spinning of Wisemann and Speedy, people know some of these people are Corbyn's fellow travellers.