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The problems i can see with Jerermy Corbyn is rooted throughout this entire election campaign.
Firstly the Labour MPs didn't want him, he only got onto the ballot at the very last minute due to Burnham "lending" him votes to try and create some diversity to the debate. Obviously he thought getting a lefty on the ballot would shift the agenda towards the left somewhat and when Corbyn crumbled he would lap up the votes....
Secondly, Corbyn has reached real popularity partly because he is different of course, however the reason for him gaining so much attention is largely due to the fact that the other candidates are so weak. None of them look like Prime Ministers in waiting. Rather than him being the standout choice for PM. So naturally attention shifts over to the unknown.
Now there is no doubt that Corbyn has enthused and excited many people, however looking on social media and talking to people who I know who are backing him, these are not people who have no interest in politics, who have been magically put under his spell and converted back. These are the already heavily politicized left who would turn out and vote/campaign anyway.
If/When he does win, he will surely be the first Labour leader in recently memory who will face so much opposition from his OWN party. Yes, Miliband had some opposition within his party due to him getting in off the backs of the unions, however the other candidates backed him when he won. His brother who finished second was in full support of him. The difference with Corbyn is Cooper and Kendall have said they would even refuse to sit in his Cabinet! Brown, Blair, Kinnock, Straw, Beckett, Hunt, D.Miliband, Blunkett, Balls, Prescott, Hutton, Reid, Clarke. These are just some of the Labour politicians to openly speak out against Corbyn. There's one thing to back another potential leader, but it is something else to openly criticize and warn against a candidate. I have friends who are Labour Councillors and they are despairing at the current situation. The feeling amongst them is that so many have spent years supporting/campaigning/voting for Labour and now a man who many feel would do so much damage to the party is set to become leader, not because the party faithful want him but because thousands of people who are union members/voted for another party just a few months ago are hijacking their party election.
Labour have lost it entirely...0 -
I think Canada does a good job. They have managed to get to a situation where their immigrants are so high-skilled that they can have greater numbers and it doesn't cause public concern.rcs1000 said:
Not questioning your BOO choice, but what's your country you want to be like, border-wise?Plato said:I've gone from being a very persuadable BINer, to flirting with BOO - to 95% BOO.
Our border/security matter to me a lot. HMG are failing very badly on immigration and I'm really irked. Our culture is being changed and I've had enough.MarqueeMark said:Today's immigration numbers show how we could exit the EU: if the referendum becomes not about the EU as such, but - like the 1974 "Who governs Britain?" election - becomes "who controls Britain's borders?" If the No camp can get people to vote on the basis of No = control over our own borders, Yes = control of our borders by Brussels, they may hit a very raw nerve. If the vote becomes polarised around that issue, then No wins. If...
The problem is in seeing the people who are able to steer the debate in that direction.
When you look around Europe, or the world, which is the country you most want to emulate as far as Visa-free access, etc.?0 -
@peter_from_putney - That aside, I was quite surprised that the figure was as low as 42% even for the Corbynistas.0
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There is also the review from the Rank and File that is due to be published soon. Rumour has it, it doesn't make for happy bed time reading for Sir Stephen, or for Nicola Sturgeon either, who, since the policing of Scotland is fully devolved, is the one to take all the blame.CarlottaVance said:Sir Stephen House falls on his sword Taser:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34072703
She can't, unfortunately for her, blame her predecessor 'cos he's 400 odd miles down souf, the Leader over the Water (Thames), waiting to recalled to the colours to do his duty once more to save the SNP in their hour of greatest need as the party disintegrates in Holyrood.
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Very true.peter_from_putney said:I am sick and tired of seeing questions such as the one framed in this survey by YouGov which asks the question:
"Think tuition fees should be paid ENTIRELY by government"
The government doesn't have any money, none whatsoever. Its only source of money is to take it from taxpayers, or to borrow it, which ultimately has to be repaid by taxpayers.
I wonder to what extent the responses to such questions would vary, were the same question be differently, yet more honestly framed as follows:
"Think tuition fees should be paid ENTIRELY by taxpayers"
Or perhaps: "Think tuition fees should be paid ENTIRELY by (a) you directly, (b) you later on, (c) you at some point, (d) you indirectly."
Maybe they would get the idea.
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Because people like you talk a good game on immigration but when it comes to living with poor mass immigration areas,you haven't a clue when my quality of life starts to suffer.Philip_Thompson said:
You asked me a question. You don't know my area but I don't see how its relevant or why I should care at all. I don't care.Tykejohnno said:
Come off it,your area is no where near what I'm talking about.Philip_Thompson said:
No. Though at the bottom of my road most of the shops are in Arabic. My local barber is there, he's a nice guy. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.Tykejohnno said:
Would you say your a ethnic minority in your area you live ?Philip_Thompson said:
No many of my neighbours are (I'm guessing from language spoken and appearance) ethnically Polish and Arabic. I have no idea about how skilled or unskilled they are, though I wouldn't call myself unskilled.Tykejohnno said:
What you have a Chinese restaurant at the end of the street.Philip_Thompson said:
I live in a multicultural area.Tykejohnno said:
What you need Mr Thompson is a dose of real life living in a poor inner city multicultural area where more and more poor unskilled people are being shoved in.Philip_Thompson said:
Who will they be lost to? Realistically voting UKIP is no different to abstaining, while Labour aren't exactly going to win votes on the subject. No other party seems relevant to a conversation on immigration.Tykejohnno said:I gave Cameron my trust on immigration,he's nothing more than a big fat liar.
The new Tories will lose voters just like new labour did on immigration.
Wake up and smell the coffee.
I also mentioned the words poor and poor unskilled immigration.
There are many areas where voting Labour and voting for Corbyn style economics is very popular. I don't agree with them, nor do I agree with others I disagree with. Strange that.
Again,can't see you coming to live in the area I live any time soon.0 -
LOL. A bit sick but very funny.MarqueeMark said:
He actually quit 3 days ago, but somehow nobody got the message....CarlottaVance said:Sir Stephen House falls on his sword Taser:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-340727030 -
OT I've been watching a docu about the science of bubbles. One section was on a chappy's PhD on champagne bubble mechanics. What a marvellous subject to study!
It also mentioned the work by Mitsubishi to use bubbles to reduce drag on its ships by 15% - if it pops up again on BBC4, well worth watching. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0176phj0 -
Indigo said:
Alternatively they could make judgements on the basis of what parliament said, rather than what the judge wished parliament had said.malcolmg said:
Good gracious yes we cannot have them independent and thinking for themselves , they must be tools for the Tories.Financier said:Re: Immigration.
Cameron and May's problem is the English & Welsh judiciary and their interpretation of thee ECHR rulings. The judiciary either needs re-education or given strict guidelines so that our borders can be safeguarded.
Parliament could help by not passing poorly drafted, inadequately scrutinised legislation in the first place.Indigo said:
Alternatively they could make judgements on the basis of what parliament said, rather than what the judge wished parliament had said.malcolmg said:
Good gracious yes we cannot have them independent and thinking for themselves , they must be tools for the Tories.Financier said:Re: Immigration.
Cameron and May's problem is the English & Welsh judiciary and their interpretation of thee ECHR rulings. The judiciary either needs re-education or given strict guidelines so that our borders can be safeguarded.0 -
From which I conclude you don't actually have an argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
I think the answer is to be found in the preceding paragraph of your post.Recidivist said:If that makes me, and 31% of the rest of the population, insane it would be good to know the reason.
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If you don't like your area you can move, its a free country. We're talking about people who've traversed the world to get where you are but you can't apparently move a few miles to a different town. Boo hoo go cry me a river.Tykejohnno said:
Because people like you talk a good game on immigration but when it comes to living with poor mass immigration areas,you haven't a clue when my quality of life starts to suffer.Philip_Thompson said:
You asked me a question. You don't know my area but I don't see how its relevant or why I should care at all. I don't care.Tykejohnno said:
Come off it,your area is no where near what I'm talking about.Philip_Thompson said:
No. Though at the bottom of my road most of the shops are in Arabic. My local barber is there, he's a nice guy. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.Tykejohnno said:
Would you say your a ethnic minority in your area you live ?Philip_Thompson said:
No many of my neighbours are (I'm guessing from language spoken and appearance) ethnically Polish and Arabic. I have no idea about how skilled or unskilled they are, though I wouldn't call myself unskilled.Tykejohnno said:
What you have a Chinese restaurant at the end of the street.Philip_Thompson said:
I live in a multicultural area.Tykejohnno said:
What you need Mr Thompson is a dose of real life living in a poor inner city multicultural area where more and more poor unskilled people are being shoved in.Philip_Thompson said:
Who will they be lost to? Realistically voting UKIP is no different to abstaining, while Labour aren't exactly going to win votes on the subject. No other party seems relevant to a conversation on immigration.Tykejohnno said:I gave Cameron my trust on immigration,he's nothing more than a big fat liar.
The new Tories will lose voters just like new labour did on immigration.
Wake up and smell the coffee.
I also mentioned the words poor and poor unskilled immigration.
There are many areas where voting Labour and voting for Corbyn style economics is very popular. I don't agree with them, nor do I agree with others I disagree with. Strange that.
Again,can't see you coming to live in the area I live any time soon.0 -
Indeed. Cheers @PlatoPlato said:@handandmouse maybe?
SandyRentool said:Looking at the Issues numbers, I am a fairly typical Jezlamist.
Ha anyone kept tabs of the voting split of the PB Labourites? Is it just me, NickP and BJO in the Corbyn camp?
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"The feeling amongst them is that so many have spent years supporting/campaigning/voting for Labour and now a man who many feel would do so much damage to the party is set to become leader,..."
But they voted for Brown. No wait a minute they didn't have a choice!0 -
Ain't that the truth... however in the real world...Carolus_Rex said:
Parliament could help by not passing poorly drafted, inadequately scrutinised legislation in the first place.Indigo said:
Alternatively they could make judgements on the basis of what parliament said, rather than what the judge wished parliament had said.malcolmg said:
Good gracious yes we cannot have them independent and thinking for themselves , they must be tools for the Tories.Financier said:Re: Immigration.
Cameron and May's problem is the English & Welsh judiciary and their interpretation of thee ECHR rulings. The judiciary either needs re-education or given strict guidelines so that our borders can be safeguarded.
However even when parliament passes laws with clauses in saying the outcome of such-and-such a review is not to be subject to judicial review, the very first thing their Lordships do is try and look for a pretext to review it.
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Ditto.Indigo said:
Australia, possibly Canada.rcs1000 said:
Not questioning your BOO choice, but what's your country you want to be like, border-wise?Plato said:I've gone from being a very persuadable BINer, to flirting with BOO - to 95% BOO.
Our border/security matter to me a lot. HMG are failing very badly on immigration and I'm really irked. Our culture is being changed and I've had enough.MarqueeMark said:Today's immigration numbers show how we could exit the EU: if the referendum becomes not about the EU as such, but - like the 1974 "Who governs Britain?" election - becomes "who controls Britain's borders?" If the No camp can get people to vote on the basis of No = control over our own borders, Yes = control of our borders by Brussels, they may hit a very raw nerve. If the vote becomes polarised around that issue, then No wins. If...
The problem is in seeing the people who are able to steer the debate in that direction.
When you look around Europe, or the world, which is the country you most want to emulate as far as Visa-free access, etc.?0 -
So all the poor people effected by mass immigration can just up sticks and move to the posh areas.Philip_Thompson said:
If you don't like your area you can move, its a free country. We're talking about people who've traversed the world to get where you are but you can't apparently move a few miles to a different town. Boo hoo go cry me a river.Tykejohnno said:
Because people like you talk a good game on immigration but when it comes to living with poor mass immigration areas,you haven't a clue when my quality of life starts to suffer.Philip_Thompson said:
You asked me a question. You don't know my area but I don't see how its relevant or why I should care at all. I don't care.Tykejohnno said:
Come off it,your area is no where near what I'm talking about.Philip_Thompson said:
No. Though at the bottom of my road most of the shops are in Arabic. My local barber is there, he's a nice guy. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.Tykejohnno said:
Would you say your a ethnic minority in your area you live ?Philip_Thompson said:
No many of my neighbours are (I'm guessing from language spoken and appearance) ethnically Polish and Arabic. I have no idea about how skilled or unskilled they are, though I wouldn't call myself unskilled.Tykejohnno said:
What you have a Chinese restaurant at the end of the street.Philip_Thompson said:
I live in a multicultural area.Tykejohnno said:
What you need Mr Thompson is a dose of real life living in a poor inner city multicultural area where more and more poor unskilled people are being shoved in.Philip_Thompson said:
Who will they be lost to? Realistically voting UKIP is no different to abstaining, while Labour aren't exactly going to win votes on the subject. No other party seems relevant to a conversation on immigration.Tykejohnno said:I gave Cameron my trust on immigration,he's nothing more than a big fat liar.
The new Tories will lose voters just like new labour did on immigration.
Wake up and smell the coffee.
I also mentioned the words poor and poor unskilled immigration.
There are many areas where voting Labour and voting for Corbyn style economics is very popular. I don't agree with them, nor do I agree with others I disagree with. Strange that.
Again,can't see you coming to live in the area I live any time soon.
Problem solved.0 -
1. Lots of things that are considered "natural monopolies" turn out not to be once you unleash the forces of capitalism on them. One example is telecoms, where it was thought the best way to drive improvement in the sector was via a single owner being run in the public interest for economies of scale. We have now seen that allowing private companies to innovate and develop new systems has broken up a natural monopoly into a competitive market, and we all benefit from that.Recidivist said:SeanT said:48% of KENDALL supporters are "strongly in favour of nationalising utilities" - a clearly insane policy, desired by just 31% of Brits.
Labour. Doomed.
Just out of curiosity, although I know the Stuarts found it handy as a way of rewarding their favourites, what is the argument against nationalising natural monopolies?
I can't see any obvious reason to grant substantial monopoly income to private interests and lots of reason to keep them in public ownership.
I am also old enough to remember when we had substantial public ownership in the UK, and it seemed to work well enough.
If that makes me, and 31% of the rest of the population, insane it would be good to know the reason.
2. Public ownership often ends up in the utility being run for short-term political concern rather than long-term strategy. The classic example here is the railways, where the government was constantly forced to keep ticket prices down for political reasons, resulting in the network being starved of cash. We had clapped out trains and stagnating numbers using the railways as a result.
3. Contracting out the service allows us to ditch someone that is doing a very bad job. Is there's ever shoddy management, we can take back the franchise and give it to someone else. If it is a state-owned organisation, the bosses and unions of such an organisation know they have us over a barrel and we don't have much leverage over them. This can result in things like the constant strikes on the London Underground.
4. Having utilities in private hands allows a huge influx of private investment that can start a positive investment cycle, which is something especially important in times of government constraint. You only need to look at investment British airports, which has skyrocketed as a result of them being private.
5. Employees for such companies have a far better service mentality when they know they need your business, rather than when they know they will simply run at a loss in public hands.
6. The sheer record of better performance in the private sector. It used to take months to get a new phoneline from BT, trains would regularly run late and would be in appalling condition, the water system had horrendous rates of lost water. This has all improved thanks to the Thatcher revolution.0 -
Icarus said:
"The feeling amongst them is that so many have spent years supporting/campaigning/voting for Labour and now a man who many feel would do so much damage to the party is set to become leader,..."
But they voted for Brown. No wait a minute they didn't have a choice!
Was there the same opposition the Brown becoming leader as there is to Corbyn? I think not...0 -
Your the sort of person that likes the good kind of ethnic cleansing aren't you.Philip_Thompson said:
If you don't like your area you can move, its a free country. We're talking about people who've traversed the world to get where you are but you can't apparently move a few miles to a different town. Boo hoo go cry me a river.Tykejohnno said:
Because people like you talk a good game on immigration but when it comes to living with poor mass immigration areas,you haven't a clue when my quality of life starts to suffer.Philip_Thompson said:
You asked me a question. You don't know my area but I don't see how its relevant or why I should care at all. I don't care.Tykejohnno said:
Come off it,your area is no where near what I'm talking about.Philip_Thompson said:
No. Though at the bottom of my road most of the shops are in Arabic. My local barber is there, he's a nice guy. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.Tykejohnno said:
Would you say your a ethnic minority in your area you live ?Philip_Thompson said:
No many of my neighbours are (I'm guessing from language spoken and appearance) ethnically Polish and Arabic. I have no idea about how skilled or unskilled they are, though I wouldn't call myself unskilled.Tykejohnno said:
What you have a Chinese restaurant at the end of the street.Philip_Thompson said:
I live in a multicultural area.Tykejohnno said:
What you need Mr Thompson is a dose of real life living in a poor inner city multicultural area where more and more poor unskilled people are being shoved in.Philip_Thompson said:
Who will they be lost to? Realistically voting UKIP is no different to abstaining, while Labour aren't exactly going to win votes on the subject. No other party seems relevant to a conversation on immigration.Tykejohnno said:I gave Cameron my trust on immigration,he's nothing more than a big fat liar.
The new Tories will lose voters just like new labour did on immigration.
Wake up and smell the coffee.
I also mentioned the words poor and poor unskilled immigration.
There are many areas where voting Labour and voting for Corbyn style economics is very popular. I don't agree with them, nor do I agree with others I disagree with. Strange that.
Again,can't see you coming to live in the area I live any time soon.0 -
... and of course, if we only allowed highly skilled iummigrants into the country, the disparity between those at the top of the tree and immigrants would decrease significantly, immigrants would find it easier to get management jobs, on boards, into the establishment etcJEO said:
I think Canada does a good job. They have managed to get to a situation where their immigrants are so high-skilled that they can have greater numbers and it doesn't cause public concern.rcs1000 said:
Not questioning your BOO choice, but what's your country you want to be like, border-wise?Plato said:I've gone from being a very persuadable BINer, to flirting with BOO - to 95% BOO.
Our border/security matter to me a lot. HMG are failing very badly on immigration and I'm really irked. Our culture is being changed and I've had enough.MarqueeMark said:Today's immigration numbers show how we could exit the EU: if the referendum becomes not about the EU as such, but - like the 1974 "Who governs Britain?" election - becomes "who controls Britain's borders?" If the No camp can get people to vote on the basis of No = control over our own borders, Yes = control of our borders by Brussels, they may hit a very raw nerve. If the vote becomes polarised around that issue, then No wins. If...
The problem is in seeing the people who are able to steer the debate in that direction.
When you look around Europe, or the world, which is the country you most want to emulate as far as Visa-free access, etc.?
It would cure all manner of social ills0 -
People should not be forced to move out of their home area because the decisions of politicians have completely transformed it for the worse.Philip_Thompson said:
If you don't like your area you can move, its a free country. We're talking about people who've traversed the world to get where you are but you can't apparently move a few miles to a different town. Boo hoo go cry me a river.Tykejohnno said:
Because people like you talk a good game on immigration but when it comes to living with poor mass immigration areas,you haven't a clue when my quality of life starts to suffer.Philip_Thompson said:
You asked me a question. You don't know my area but I don't see how its relevant or why I should care at all. I don't care.Tykejohnno said:
Come off it,your area is no where near what I'm talking about.Philip_Thompson said:
No. Though at the bottom of my road most of the shops are in Arabic. My local barber is there, he's a nice guy. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.Tykejohnno said:
Would you say your a ethnic minority in your area you live ?Philip_Thompson said:
No many of my neighbours are (I'm guessing from language spoken and appearance) ethnically Polish and Arabic. I have no idea about how skilled or unskilled they are, though I wouldn't call myself unskilled.Tykejohnno said:
What you have a Chinese restaurant at the end of the street.Philip_Thompson said:
I live in a multicultural area.Tykejohnno said:
What you need Mr Thompson is a dose of real life living in a poor inner city multicultural area where more and more poor unskilled people are being shoved in.Philip_Thompson said:
Who will they be lost to? Realistically voting UKIP is no different to abstaining, while Labour aren't exactly going to win votes on the subject. No other party seems relevant to a conversation on immigration.Tykejohnno said:I gave Cameron my trust on immigration,he's nothing more than a big fat liar.
The new Tories will lose voters just like new labour did on immigration.
Wake up and smell the coffee.
I also mentioned the words poor and poor unskilled immigration.
There are many areas where voting Labour and voting for Corbyn style economics is very popular. I don't agree with them, nor do I agree with others I disagree with. Strange that.
Again,can't see you coming to live in the area I live any time soon.0 -
But in practice the young don't vote and the old do. As you admit, policies are geared to the old because they do vote. It is unsatisfactory.Cyclefree said:
What a curious view. You are fine with not having older people vote while trying to make it easier for younger people who are well able to get off their backsides and go and vote. There is no unfair bias going on. The fact that policies are geared to the old is because they do vote. The young have the vote. They choose not exercise their vote and must, like grown ups, live with the consequences. The answer is very literally in their hands: the pencil or the postal vote.Barnesian said:
I think on-line voting should be made compulsory. We should scrap paper voting slips and polling stations.Animal_pb said:
Equally unsurprising: cheap, online voting tends to maximise Corbynista representation.Richard_Nabavi said:Mind you, none of this is remotely surprising. 'Naive extreme-left winger draws support from naive extreme left-wingers' seems a bit of a non-headline.
If that's the future of democracy, we're in real trouble.
This would encourage more people to vote, particulary young people. It might discourage some elderly from voting but that would be fine. It would help redress the current unfair bias to the elderly in the current system which is corrupting politics and encouraging inter-generational conflict.
I hope JC adds this to his policies.
One solution is compulsory voting. I don't like that because it is coercive. I prefer the "nudge" solution of using up-to-date technology that young people enjoy using.0 -
What do you see as the *natural monopolies*?
There are very few in my own view. What are yours?Recidivist said:
From which I conclude you don't actually have an argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
I think the answer is to be found in the preceding paragraph of your post.Recidivist said:If that makes me, and 31% of the rest of the population, insane it would be good to know the reason.
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How 'left wing are you' - compared to GB - supporters of:
Kendall: +7%
Cooper: +25%
Burnham: +25%
Corbyn: +60%
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/08/27/you-may-say-im-dreamer-inside-mindset-jeremy-corby/0 -
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Well said.JEO said:
People should not be forced to move out of their home area because the decisions of politicians have completely transformed it for the worse.Philip_Thompson said:
If you don't like your area you can move, its a free country. We're talking about people who've traversed the world to get where you are but you can't apparently move a few miles to a different town. Boo hoo go cry me a river.Tykejohnno said:
Because people like you talk a good game on immigration but when it comes to living with poor mass immigration areas,you haven't a clue when my quality of life starts to suffer.Philip_Thompson said:
You asked me a question. You don't know my area but I don't see how its relevant or why I should care at all. I don't care.Tykejohnno said:
Come off it,your area is no where near what I'm talking about.Philip_Thompson said:
No. Though at the bottom of my road most of the shops are in Arabic. My local barber is there, he's a nice guy. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.Tykejohnno said:
Would you say your a ethnic minority in your area you live ?Philip_Thompson said:
No many of my neighbours are (I'm guessing from language spoken and appearance) ethnically Polish and Arabic. I have no idea about how skilled or unskilled they are, though I wouldn't call myself unskilled.Tykejohnno said:
What you have a Chinese restaurant at the end of the street.Philip_Thompson said:
I live in a multicultural area.Tykejohnno said:
What you need Mr Thompson is a dose of real life living in a poor inner city multicultural area where more and more poor unskilled people are being shoved in.Philip_Thompson said:
Who will they be lost to? Realistically voting UKIP is no different to abstaining, while Labour aren't exactly going to win votes on the subject. No other party seems relevant to a conversation on immigration.Tykejohnno said:I gave Cameron my trust on immigration,he's nothing more than a big fat liar.
The new Tories will lose voters just like new labour did on immigration.
Wake up and smell the coffee.
I also mentioned the words poor and poor unskilled immigration.
There are many areas where voting Labour and voting for Corbyn style economics is very popular. I don't agree with them, nor do I agree with others I disagree with. Strange that.
Again,can't see you coming to live in the area I live any time soon.0 -
I never said anyone should be forced to move, did I? He's crying that he doesn't like his area but that neighbouring areas are nice. Well if that's his opinion he has the choice of moving. No compulsion necessary.JEO said:
People should not be forced to move out of their home area because the decisions of politicians have completely transformed it for the worse.Philip_Thompson said:
If you don't like your area you can move, its a free country. We're talking about people who've traversed the world to get where you are but you can't apparently move a few miles to a different town. Boo hoo go cry me a river.Tykejohnno said:Because people like you talk a good game on immigration but when it comes to living with poor mass immigration areas,you haven't a clue when my quality of life starts to suffer.
Again,can't see you coming to live in the area I live any time soon.
Personally I don't feel the migration that has come to my area has been a problem, so I feel no compulsion to move or to change my opinions.0 -
The opening salvo of that is so obvious, its brilliant.SeanT said:Frankie Boyle being very sharp and funny on the Labour Trainwreck
‘Every photo of the candidates looks like the staff room of a failing comprehensive feigning amusement at being photobombed by the janitor.’
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/27/how-will-labour-top-losing-the-election-by-losing-its-own-leadership-contest
The British left might be doomed. But they still have some great writers. Stewart Lee is another.0 -
Not happy reading either for IDS, figures just released from DWP.
http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2015/08/27/known-number-of-deaths-while-claiming-incapacity-benefits-nears-100000/
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Yes, very funny.SeanT said:Frankie Boyle being very sharp and funny on the Labour Trainwreck
‘Every photo of the candidates looks like the staff room of a failing comprehensive feigning amusement at being photobombed by the janitor.’
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/27/how-will-labour-top-losing-the-election-by-losing-its-own-leadership-contest
The British left might be doomed. But they still have some great writers. Stewart Lee is another.
https://twitter.com/Conorpope/status/6368862188238929920 -
Corbyn supporters vs GB:
Dreamer: +15
Don't like being told what to do: +11
Not afraid of change: +15
World run by secretive elite: +150 -
Goose-stepping PB Tory Fascists!
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Thank you very much, glad you enjoyed it.SimonStClare said:@M.Partridge. Labour have lost it entirely...
An excellent and insightful post Mr Patridge.0 -
So that is a mixture of mildly compelling economic cases, and some stuff that is basically just opinions. I won't bore everyone with actually doing it, but I could put up a reasonably similar set of reasons in favour of nationalisation. The point I'd make is that it is something over which you can have a debate. It isn't a question of one point of view being sound and the other being insane.JEO said:
1. Lots of... This has all improved thanks to the Thatcher revolution.Recidivist said:SeanT said:48% of KENDALL supporters are "strongly in favour of nationalising utilities" - a clearly insane policy, desired by just 31% of Brits.
Labour. Doomed.
If that makes me, and 31% of the rest of the population, insane it would be good to know the reason.
Do you see the problem here? A lot of what passes for political discussion is simply infantile name calling. (I don't me you Jeo - thanks for replying)0 -
LOL, he said in April he was going http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/568325/police-chief-Sir-Stephen-HouseCarlottaVance said:
The Courier: http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/scotland/police-scotland-chief-constable-sir-stephen-house-quits-1.896815malcolmg said:
He also said publicly months ago that he was going so it is hardly news to anyone other thanMarqueeMark said:
He actually quit 3 days ago, but somehow nobody got the message....CarlottaVance said:Sir Stephen House falls on his sword Taser:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34072703
STV: http://news.stv.tv/scotland/1327509-head-of-police-scotland-sir-stephen-house-to-step-down-in-three-months/
Glasgow Evening Times: http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/13630463.Sir_Stephen_House_led_transition_to_single_Scotland_police_force/
Falkirk Herald: http://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/news/local-news/police-chief-to-step-down-1-3870428
Wrong again malcolm......got any oil price forecasts you'd like to share?0 -
How does a belief in a free market solution to a problem suit the Labour Party? It is a perfectly Conservative solution. If you don't like what you have buy something different, capitalism in motion.SeanT said:
That's a fairly obnoxious remark. And stupid. Go join the Labour Party. You'd fit right in.Philip_Thompson said:If you don't like your area you can move, its a free country. We're talking about people who've traversed the world to get where you are but you can't apparently move a few miles to a different town. Boo hoo go cry me a river.
EDIT: Instead of thinking the government should solve every issue without anyone taking any responsibility for what they want. That is the Labour way of thinking.0 -
But politicians decision's do force people to move and out of touch snobs like you just tell me that you haven't a clue.Philip_Thompson said:
I never said anyone should be forced to move, did I? He's crying that he doesn't like his area but that neighbouring areas are nice. Well if that's his opinion he has the choice of moving. No compulsion necessary.JEO said:
People should not be forced to move out of their home area because the decisions of politicians have completely transformed it for the worse.Philip_Thompson said:
If you don't like your area you can move, its a free country. We're talking about people who've traversed the world to get where you are but you can't apparently move a few miles to a different town. Boo hoo go cry me a river.Tykejohnno said:Because people like you talk a good game on immigration but when it comes to living with poor mass immigration areas,you haven't a clue when my quality of life starts to suffer.
Again,can't see you coming to live in the area I live any time soon.
Personally I don't feel the migration that has come to my area has been a problem, so I feel no compulsion to move or to change my opinions.0 -
I fear we are going to have to get real on immigration, something the government has not been.
The reality is that there are now over 8m people resident in the UK who were not born here. Many, most of these, still have family in the country they came from including potential dependents. Many will choose to marry spouses from those countries giving them the right to live in the UK.
The idea that this multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, free travelling society of over 62 m is only going to generate tens of thousands of immigrants a year is frankly absurd. At the moment we are getting the worst of all worlds. We have high scale immigration of dependents and we make it more difficult to sell educational services and address skill shortages in some bizarre form of compensation.
Do we really want to take away the right of British citizens to marry who they like and bring their spouses back to their own country? Do we really want to deny British citizens who have the money to do so the right to bring their aged parents here for care? Do we seriously dispute that we have serious skill shortages when our construction industry can't find enough brickies, when we don't train enough doctors or nurses and those that we do want to go part time and have kids?
The question is not whether this is what we wanted or even who is to blame, the question is, is this not an inevitable consequence of the UK being as it is in 2015?0 -
Anyone considering supporting electronic voting should watch the following:Barnesian said:
I think on-line voting should be made compulsory. We should scrap paper voting slips and polling stations.Animal_pb said:
Equally unsurprising: cheap, online voting tends to maximise Corbynista representation.Richard_Nabavi said:Mind you, none of this is remotely surprising. 'Naive extreme-left winger draws support from naive extreme left-wingers' seems a bit of a non-headline.
If that's the future of democracy, we're in real trouble.
This would encourage more people to vote, particulary young people. It might discourage some elderly from voting but that would be fine. It would help redress the current unfair bias to the elderly in the current system which is corrupting politics and encouraging inter-generational conflict.
I hope JC adds this to his policies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_0x6oaDmI
It's madness.
0 -
Although weighted, these findings could also be an indication of the type of people who are more likely to do YouGov polls.0
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Re Canada and immigration: I think people miss how multicultural Canada is, especially the West Coast. As I travel around the world, except when I'm in China or Japan, white men are always in the majority in meetings. (Except in Norway or Sweden, when it's sometimes white women.) The exception is Canada, where on the West coast, I am very often the only white person in the meeting. Large parts of Vancouver feel far more foreign than Bradford, with barely a single sign in English. (Toronto also seems to have very large, unintegrated, immigrant communities).
About 21% of people in Canada are foreign born, and if you take the Maritimes, Saskatchewen, and Quebec (where immigration levels are much lower), then the number is probably quite a bit higher, especially in BC, Alberta and Ontario. Immigration of 250,000 per year, according to this site, is the highest per capita of the G8.
It's not just high skilled workers that come to Canada. There is a specific visa programme for the low skilled that offers visa for "jobs that require lower levels of formal training (e.g. food and beverage servers, chambermaids". (See here.) I also know a great many people from India, the Middle East that studied in Canada, often on quite short courses, in order to get a Canadian study Visa.
Why has this not caused the same problems as in the UK? Well, firstly, I think the UK discussion on immigration gets too intertwined with the EU. Secondly, Canada has been enjoying an oil driven boom over the last 15 years. (One that is coming to an end as we speak.) When the price of oil went from $12 to $150/barrel, while production went from 2m to 3.5m barrels a day, there was a building boom, and there was an oil boom.
Anyway: the point I'm making is that Canada doesn't just have a policy of letting high skilled workers in, and lets a lot of people in. In large parts of BC, as a white person of Christian European origin, speaking English, you'd be the one who felt like the minority.0 -
if the EU high ups didn't take such evident pleasure in telling us there is nothing to be done about it, some BOO-ers might revert to waverers...Plato said:I've gone from being a very persuadable BINer, to flirting with BOO - to 95% BOO.
Our border/security matter to me a lot. HMG are failing very badly on immigration and I'm really irked. Our culture is being changed and I've had enough.MarqueeMark said:Today's immigration numbers show how we could exit the EU: if the referendum becomes not about the EU as such, but - like the 1974 "Who governs Britain?" election - becomes "who controls Britain's borders?" If the No camp can get people to vote on the basis of No = control over our own borders, Yes = control of our borders by Brussels, they may hit a very raw nerve. If the vote becomes polarised around that issue, then No wins. If...
The problem is in seeing the people who are able to steer the debate in that direction.0 -
He said he wouldn't ask for his contract to be renewed when it expires late next year. He is now resigning as soon as his notice is worked out. That's clearly a change of plan, and I wonder what sparked it given that actually, leaving before someone is in place to take over is likely if anything to make matters even worse.malcolmg said:
LOL, he said in April he was going http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/568325/police-chief-Sir-Stephen-HouseCarlottaVance said:
The Courier: http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/scotland/police-scotland-chief-constable-sir-stephen-house-quits-1.896815malcolmg said:
He also said publicly months ago that he was going so it is hardly news to anyone other thanMarqueeMark said:
He actually quit 3 days ago, but somehow nobody got the message....CarlottaVance said:Sir Stephen House falls on his sword Taser:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34072703
STV: http://news.stv.tv/scotland/1327509-head-of-police-scotland-sir-stephen-house-to-step-down-in-three-months/
Glasgow Evening Times: http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/13630463.Sir_Stephen_House_led_transition_to_single_Scotland_police_force/
Falkirk Herald: http://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/news/local-news/police-chief-to-step-down-1-3870428
Wrong again malcolm......got any oil price forecasts you'd like to share?0 -
I loved this YouGov chart - stereotypes.
https://twitter.com/PlatoSays/status/6368884979121602560 -
Judges are supposed to make their own judgement based on the law , not what Parliament want to happen even though that is what Tories would like to be the case.Indigo said:
Alternatively they could make judgements on the basis of what parliament said, rather than what the judge wished parliament had said.malcolmg said:
Good gracious yes we cannot have them independent and thinking for themselves , they must be tools for the Tories.Financier said:Re: Immigration.
Cameron and May's problem is the English & Welsh judiciary and their interpretation of thee ECHR rulings. The judiciary either needs re-education or given strict guidelines so that our borders can be safeguarded.0 -
In 2004, India had adopted Electronic Voting Machines (EVM) for its elections to the Parliament with 380 million voters had cast their ballots using more than a million voting machines.[14] The Indian EVMs are designed and developed by two Government Owned Defense Equipment Manufacturing Units, Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) and Electronics Corporation of India Limited (ECIL). Both systems are identical, and are developed to the specifications of Election Commission of India. The System is a set of two devices running on 6V batteries. One device, the Voting Unit is used by the Voter, and another device called the Control Unit is operated by the Electoral Officer. Both units are connected by a 5 meter cable. The Voting unit has a Blue Button for every candidate, the unit can hold 16 candidates, but up to 4 units can be chained, to accommodate 64 candidates. The Control Units has Three buttons on the surface, namely, one button to release a single vote, one button to see the total number of vote cast till now, and one button to close the election process. The result button is hidden and sealed, It cannot be pressed unless the Close button is already pressed.JosiasJessop said:
Anyone considering supporting electronic voting should watch the following:Barnesian said:
I think on-line voting should be made compulsory. We should scrap paper voting slips and polling stations.Animal_pb said:
Equally unsurprising: cheap, online voting tends to maximise Corbynista representation.Richard_Nabavi said:Mind you, none of this is remotely surprising. 'Naive extreme-left winger draws support from naive extreme left-wingers' seems a bit of a non-headline.
If that's the future of democracy, we're in real trouble.
This would encourage more people to vote, particulary young people. It might discourage some elderly from voting but that would be fine. It would help redress the current unfair bias to the elderly in the current system which is corrupting politics and encouraging inter-generational conflict.
I hope JC adds this to his policies.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_0x6oaDmI
It's madness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voting0 -
Most of the Chinese folk who work in our HK office have Canadian passports and accents. We really lost out by not offering UK citizenship to the HK Chinese.rcs1000 said:Re Canada and immigration: I think people miss how multicultural Canada is, especially the West Coast. As I travel around the world, except when I'm in China or Japan, white men are always in the majority in meetings. (Except in Norway or Sweden, when it's sometimes white women.) The exception is Canada, where on the West coast, I am very often the only white person in the meeting. Large parts of Vancouver feel far more foreign than Bradford, with barely a single sign in English. (Toronto also seems to have very large, unintegrated, immigrant communities).
About 21% of people in Canada are foreign born, and if you take the Maritimes, Saskatchewen, and Quebec (where immigration levels are much lower), then the number is probably quite a bit higher, especially in BC, Alberta and Ontario. Immigration of 250,000 per year, according to this site, is the highest per capita of the G8.
It's not just high skilled workers that come to Canada. There is a specific visa programme for the low skilled that offers visa for "jobs that require lower levels of formal training (e.g. food and beverage servers, chambermaids". (See here.) I also know a great many people from India, the Middle East that studied in Canada, often on quite short courses, in order to get a Canadian study Visa.
Why has this not caused the same problems as in the UK? Well, firstly, I think the UK discussion on immigration gets too intertwined with the EU. Secondly, Canada has been enjoying an oil driven boom over the last 15 years. (One that is coming to an end as we speak.) When the price of oil went from $12 to $150/barrel, while production went from 2m to 3.5m barrels a day, there was a building boom, and there was an oil boom.
Anyway: the point I'm making is that Canada doesn't just have a policy of letting high skilled workers in, and lets a lot of people in. In large parts of BC, as a white person of Christian European origin, speaking English, you'd be the one who felt like the minority.
0 -
I am not so sure it is true to say as JEO says that Canadian immigrants are high skilled.isam said:
... and of course, if we only allowed highly skilled iummigrants into the country, the disparity between those at the top of the tree and immigrants would decrease significantly, immigrants would find it easier to get management jobs, on boards, into the establishment etcJEO said:
I think Canada does a good job. They have managed to get to a situation where their immigrants are so high-skilled that they can have greater numbers and it doesn't cause public concern.rcs1000 said:
Not questioning your BOO choice, but what's your country you want to be like, border-wise?Plato said:I've gone from being a very persuadable BINer, to flirting with BOO - to 95% BOO.
Our border/security matter to me a lot. HMG are failing very badly on immigration and I'm really irked. Our culture is being changed and I've had enough.MarqueeMark said:....
The problem is in seeing the people who are able to steer the debate in that direction.
When you look around Europe, or the world, which is the country you most want to emulate as far as Visa-free access, etc.?
It would cure all manner of social ills
http://immigrationcanadaservices.com/job-opportunity-for-low-skilled-workers-in-canada/
''There are more than 60 ways for immigration into Canada''
''Job Opportunity for Low Skilled Workers in Canada -
Canadian provinces offer Permanent Residency to semi-skilled workers
Some Canadian provinces offer Canadian Permanent Residency nominations for workers in semi-skilled professions such as: manufacturing, transportation, food and beverage, and hospitality occupations.''
Does that sound familiar? Where is Canada any different to anybody else.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/temporary-foreign-workers-in-low-skilled-jobs-must-start-leaving-canada-today/article23732494/
''Thousands of temporary foreign workers could be heading to airports to leave Canada today as permits expire for those who have been in the country for more than four ... In Alberta alone, 10,000 temporary foreign workers have applied to stay in Canada''
''NDP MP Jinny Sims says the deadline will likely force many workers underground.''
''Several organizations, including the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, have called for an easier path to permanent residence and eventually citizenship for temporary foreign workers, especially those employed in provinces with labour shortages.''
In a world where the mature economies do not want to do their own dirty work then as Canada shows the tidal wave surge swarm of migration will continue.0 -
Corbyn's line should (IMO) be that it's best to be honest. We can't stop immigration, short of the drastic move of withdrawing from both EU and EEA. Mr Cameron says he can, and is proved wrong - some would say untruthful - every single time the figures are published. I say that we can't, and instead should move to dealing with it in a reasonable way that treats people as individuals who are encouraged to integrate and contribute to a thriving society.Cyclefree said:
Save that Corbyn wants even more immigration and to remove what controls do exist e.g. on the minimum income needed. So Corbyn is hardly like to challenge Cameron on this and if he does Cameron has an easy answer.Tykejohnno said:
One of the big issues Cameron could have clobbered the new labour leader like open door corbyn with was on immigration,now corbyn can laugh in his face.
It's pretty much what I said on the doorstep for years, and not IMO a contributory reason to why I lost. Even people who were pretty anti-immigration generally accepted it as a straight answer, and some were really more anti-weaselly politicians than they were anti-immigration.
0 -
I wonder how many immigrants live in buy to let properties that were once council-owned before they were sold off and then sold on by folk who used the money to go and live somewhere else. It's going to happen again with the sell off of housing association properties - especially in London.Tykejohnno said:
But politicians decision's do force people to move and out of touch snobs like you just tell me that you haven't a clue.Philip_Thompson said:
I never said anyone should be forced to move, did I? He's crying that he doesn't like his area but that neighbouring areas are nice. Well if that's his opinion he has the choice of moving. No compulsion necessary.JEO said:
People should not be forced to move out of their home area because the decisions of politicians have completely transformed it for the worse.Philip_Thompson said:
If you don't like your area you can move, its a free country. We're talking about people who've traversed the world to get where you are but you can't apparently move a few miles to a different town. Boo hoo go cry me a river.Tykejohnno said:Because people like you talk a good game on immigration but when it comes to living with poor mass immigration areas,you haven't a clue when my quality of life starts to suffer.
Again,can't see you coming to live in the area I live any time soon.
Personally I don't feel the migration that has come to my area has been a problem, so I feel no compulsion to move or to change my opinions.
0 -
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:World_population_density_map.PNGPulpstar said:
I think having ~ 1% (Of the UK) of the population density helps the national psyche alot.rcs1000 said:Re Canada and immigration:
~Snip~0 -
A lot of Indians recruited in Silicon Valley as programmers have been laid off and now drive taxis or do other low-skilled work.0
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Post of the day.DavidL said:The question is not whether this is what we wanted or even who is to blame, the question is, is this not an inevitable consequence of the UK being as it is in 2015?
Its ironic - but Cameron is being punished for economic success - the better the British economy does, the more will want to come, the fewer Brits (or Poles) will want to leave.....
They should probably just STFU about immigration beyond stopping the bogus colleges and get on with house building.....
0 -
http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/corbyn-troublemaker-1532484034
Corbyn gets the backing of Peter Oborne.0 -
Don't know a lot about Canada but I was talking about Englandflightpath01 said:
I am not so sure it is true to say as JEO says that Canadian immigrants are high skilled.isam said:
... and of course, if we only allowed highly skilled iummigrants into the country, the disparity between those at the top of the tree and immigrants would decrease significantly, immigrants would find it easier to get management jobs, on boards, into the establishment etcJEO said:
I think Canada does a good job. They have managed to get to a situation where their immigrants are so high-skilled that they can have greater numbers and it doesn't cause public concern.rcs1000 said:
Not questioning your BOO choice, but what's your country you want to be like, border-wise?Plato said:I've gone from being a very persuadable BINer, to flirting with BOO - to 95% BOO.
Our border/security matter to me a lot. HMG are failing very badly on immigration and I'm really irked. Our culture is being changed and I've had enough.MarqueeMark said:....
The problem is in seeing the people who are able to steer the debate in that direction.
.?
It would cure all manner of social ills
http://immigrationcanadaservices.com/job-opportunity-for-low-skilled-workers-in-canada/
''There are more than 60 ways for immigration into Canada''
''Job Opportunity for Low Skilled Workers in Canada -
Canadian provinces offer Permanent Residency to semi-skilled workers
Some Canadian provinces offer Canadian Permanent Residency nominations for workers in semi-skilled professions such as: manufacturing, transportation, food and beverage, and hospitality occupations.''
Does that sound familiar? Where is Canada any different to anybody else.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/temporary-foreign-workers-in-low-skilled-jobs-must-start-leaving-canada-today/article23732494/
''Thousands of temporary foreign workers could be heading to airports to leave Canada today as permits expire for those who have been in the country for more than four ... In Alberta alone, 10,000 temporary foreign workers have applied to stay in Canada''
''NDP MP Jinny Sims says the deadline will likely force many workers underground.''
''Several organizations, including the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, have called for an easier path to permanent residence and eventually citizenship for temporary foreign workers, especially those employed in provinces with labour shortages.''
In a world where the mature economies do not want to do their own dirty work then as Canada shows the tidal wave surge swarm of migration will continue.0 -
The enforced! council sell off (On the cheap) looks like nothing more or less than a Conservative vote buying scheme to me.SouthamObserver said:
I wonder how many immigrants live in buy to let properties that were once council-owned before they were sold off and then sold on by folk who used the money to go and live somewhere else. It's going to happen again with the sell off of housing association properties - especially in London.Tykejohnno said:
But politicians decision's do force people to move and out of touch snobs like you just tell me that you haven't a clue.Philip_Thompson said:
I never said anyone should be forced to move, did I? He's crying that he doesn't like his area but that neighbouring areas are nice. Well if that's his opinion he has the choice of moving. No compulsion necessary.JEO said:
People should not be forced to move out of their home area because the decisions of politicians have completely transformed it for the worse.Philip_Thompson said:
If you don't like your area you can move, its a free country. We're talking about people who've traversed the world to get where you are but you can't apparently move a few miles to a different town. Boo hoo go cry me a river.Tykejohnno said:Because people like you talk a good game on immigration but when it comes to living with poor mass immigration areas,you haven't a clue when my quality of life starts to suffer.
Again,can't see you coming to live in the area I live any time soon.
Personally I don't feel the migration that has come to my area has been a problem, so I feel no compulsion to move or to change my opinions.0 -
Absolutely right, well saidSeanT said:
Has it not occurred to you that some people don't have the money or ability to just up sticks and move? Like the uneducated, or the elderly? Why should older working class white people see their neighbourhoods transformed in ways they don't like, and from which they don't benefit, and in pursuit of a policy - mass immigration - no party has ever honestly put to the voters?Philip_Thompson said:
How does a belief in a free market solution to a problem suit the Labour Party? It is a perfectly Conservative solution. If you don't like what you have buy something different, capitalism in motion.SeanT said:
That's a fairly obnoxious remark. And stupid. Go join the Labour Party. You'd fit right in.Philip_Thompson said:If you don't like your area you can move, its a free country. We're talking about people who've traversed the world to get where you are but you can't apparently move a few miles to a different town. Boo hoo go cry me a river.
EDIT: Instead of thinking the government should solve every issue without anyone taking any responsibility for what they want. That is the Labour way of thinking.
It's a betrayal of the proles by the elite. Labour's betrayal is worse, of course. They have crapped on the very people they were meant to protect. I'm glad they are now committing suicide.
0 -
0
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I certainly don't have one which could be understood by someone who thinks, apparently in all seriousness, that there wasn't much wrong with the nationalised industries of old.Recidivist said:
From which I conclude you don't actually have an argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
I think the answer is to be found in the preceding paragraph of your post.Recidivist said:If that makes me, and 31% of the rest of the population, insane it would be good to know the reason.
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Who calls for stopping immigration?NickPalmer said:
Corbyn's line should (IMO) be that it's best to be honest. We can't stop immigration, short of the drastic move of withdrawing from both EU and EEA. Mr Cameron says he can, and is proved wrong - some would say untruthful - every single time the figures are published. I say that we can't, and instead should move to dealing with it in a reasonable way that treats people as individuals who are encouraged to integrate and contribute to a thriving society.Cyclefree said:
Save that Corbyn wants even more immigration and to remove what controls do exist e.g. on the minimum income needed. So Corbyn is hardly like to challenge Cameron on this and if he does Cameron has an easy answer.Tykejohnno said:
One of the big issues Cameron could have clobbered the new labour leader like open door corbyn with was on immigration,now corbyn can laugh in his face.
It's pretty much what I said on the doorstep for years, and not IMO a contributory reason to why I lost. Even people who were pretty anti-immigration generally accepted it as a straight answer, and some were really more anti-weaselly politicians than they were anti-immigration.
Reducing it to the level we had prior to 2000 is not an unreasonable objective. And let's not kid ourselves that the economy would grind to a halt without present levels of immigration. The growth rate per capita since 2000 has been far below the level of growth per capita we saw between 1960-2000.0 -
Firstly, that's different to what Mr Barnesian wanted, which was for on-line voting. Which is several orders of magnitude more insane than even the mad-as-a-box-of-frogs Labour leadership election process.Sunil_Prasannan said:
In 2004, India had adopted Electronic Voting Machines (EVM) for its elections to the Parliament with 380 million voters had cast their ballots using more than a million voting machines.[14] The Indian EVMs are designed and developed by two Government Owned Defense Equipment Manufacturing Units, Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) and Electronics Corporation of India Limited (ECIL). Both systems are identical, and are developed to the specifications of Election Commission of India. The System is a set of two devices running on 6V batteries. One device, the Voting Unit is used by the Voter, and another device called the Control Unit is operated by the Electoral Officer. Both units are connected by a 5 meter cable. The Voting unit has a Blue Button for every candidate, the unit can hold 16 candidates, but up to 4 units can be chained, to accommodate 64 candidates. The Control Units has Three buttons on the surface, namely, one button to release a single vote, one button to see the total number of vote cast till now, and one button to close the election process. The result button is hidden and sealed, It cannot be pressed unless the Close button is already pressed.JosiasJessop said:
Anyone considering supporting electronic voting should watch the following:Barnesian said:
I think on-line voting should be made compulsory. We should scrap paper voting slips and polling stations.Animal_pb said:
Equally unsurprising: cheap, online voting tends to maximise Corbynista representation.Richard_Nabavi said:Mind you, none of this is remotely surprising. 'Naive extreme-left winger draws support from naive extreme left-wingers' seems a bit of a non-headline.
If that's the future of democracy, we're in real trouble.
This would encourage more people to vote, particulary young people. It might discourage some elderly from voting but that would be fine. It would help redress the current unfair bias to the elderly in the current system which is corrupting politics and encouraging inter-generational conflict.
I hope JC adds this to his policies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_0x6oaDmI
It's madness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voting
Secondly, hasn't the required addition of voter-verified paper audit trail rather shown that the system can be compromised, and reduced the utility of the entire system?
Our old-fashioned system works, we know its foibles, and it is very hard to game on a large scale.0 -
But what Parliament wants to happen is the law! The trouble is when it fails to make its intentions clear.malcolmg said:
Judges are supposed to make their own judgement based on the law , not what Parliament want to happen even though that is what Tories would like to be the case.Indigo said:
Alternatively they could make judgements on the basis of what parliament said, rather than what the judge wished parliament had said.malcolmg said:
Good gracious yes we cannot have them independent and thinking for themselves , they must be tools for the Tories.Financier said:Re: Immigration.
Cameron and May's problem is the English & Welsh judiciary and their interpretation of thee ECHR rulings. The judiciary either needs re-education or given strict guidelines so that our borders can be safeguarded.0 -
JosiasJessop said:
Anyone considering supporting electronic voting should watch the following:Barnesian said:
I think on-line voting should be made compulsory. We should scrap paper voting slips and polling stations.Animal_pb said:
Equally unsurprising: cheap, online voting tends to maximise Corbynista representation.Richard_Nabavi said:Mind you, none of this is remotely surprising. 'Naive extreme-left winger draws support from naive extreme left-wingers' seems a bit of a non-headline.
If that's the future of democracy, we're in real trouble.
This would encourage more people to vote, particulary young people. It might discourage some elderly from voting but that would be fine. It would help redress the current unfair bias to the elderly in the current system which is corrupting politics and encouraging inter-generational conflict.
I hope JC adds this to his policies.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_0x6oaDmI
It's madness.
Agreed. I like technology and software. I know it very well. And I wouldn't touch e-voting with a bargepole.
0 -
I think you misread me. I said all along I don't think the problems are as bad as Tykejonno makes out. But he keeps insisting his area is worse than mine and I don't know what its like etc, etc, etcSeanT said:
Has it not occurred to you that some people don't have the money or ability to just up sticks and move? Like the uneducated, or the elderly? Why should older working class white people see their neighbourhoods transformed in ways they don't like, and from which they don't benefit, and in pursuit of a policy - mass immigration - no party has ever honestly put to the voters?Philip_Thompson said:
How does a belief in a free market solution to a problem suit the Labour Party? It is a perfectly Conservative solution. If you don't like what you have buy something different, capitalism in motion.SeanT said:
That's a fairly obnoxious remark. And stupid. Go join the Labour Party. You'd fit right in.Philip_Thompson said:If you don't like your area you can move, its a free country. We're talking about people who've traversed the world to get where you are but you can't apparently move a few miles to a different town. Boo hoo go cry me a river.
EDIT: Instead of thinking the government should solve every issue without anyone taking any responsibility for what they want. That is the Labour way of thinking.
It's a betrayal of the proles by the elite. Labour's betrayal is worse, of course. They have crapped on the very people they were meant to protect. I'm glad they are now committing suicide.
Well I'm not saying people should move. I'm saying if he finds his area so bad then he has the option of doing so. I've never believed the government should fix everything for everyone so everyone has no problems - that is insane and Labour. I believe if you have a problem you can try and fix it yourself, that is why I'm a Tory. Well if Tykejonno has a proble, he has an answer within his own hands.
As for not having the money or the ability, I suspect he has more money (don't know about ability) than those in Calais who've moved over from Africa. If he doesn't want to spend his money on what he views as a problem for him then fine, beg the government for a solution. Like every other socialist that wants the government to solve all their problems.0 -
Absolutely right, well said.CarlottaVance said:
Post of the day.DavidL said:The question is not whether this is what we wanted or even who is to blame, the question is, is this not an inevitable consequence of the UK being as it is in 2015?
Its ironic - but Cameron is being punished for economic success - the better the British economy does, the more will want to come, the fewer Brits (or Poles) will want to leave.....
They should probably just STFU about immigration beyond stopping the bogus colleges and get on with house building.....
0 -
Oborne has always struck me as half traditional Conservative and half student radical.Sean_F said:http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/corbyn-troublemaker-1532484034
Corbyn gets the backing of Peter Oborne.0 -
Top post Sean.SeanT said:
Has it not occurred to you that some people don't have the money or ability to just up sticks and move? Like the uneducated, or the elderly? Why should older working class white people see their neighbourhoods transformed in ways they don't like, and from which they don't benefit, and in pursuit of a policy - mass immigration - no party has ever honestly put to the voters?Philip_Thompson said:
How does a belief in a free market solution to a problem suit the Labour Party? It is a perfectly Conservative solution. If you don't like what you have buy something different, capitalism in motion.SeanT said:
That's a fairly obnoxious remark. And stupid. Go join the Labour Party. You'd fit right in.Philip_Thompson said:If you don't like your area you can move, its a free country. We're talking about people who've traversed the world to get where you are but you can't apparently move a few miles to a different town. Boo hoo go cry me a river.
EDIT: Instead of thinking the government should solve every issue without anyone taking any responsibility for what they want. That is the Labour way of thinking.
It's a betrayal of the proles by the elite. Labour's betrayal is worse, of course. They have crapped on the very people they were meant to protect. I'm glad they are now committing suicide.0 -
IIRC @Tykejohnno ended up with George Galloway as his Respect MP.
I think we can all sympathise with that happening to our own neighbourhood.Philip_Thompson said:
I think you misread me. I said all along I don't think the problems are as bad as Tykejonno makes out. But he keeps insisting his area is worse than mine and I don't know what its like etc, etc, etcSeanT said:
Has it not occurred to you that some people don't have the money or ability to just up sticks and move? Like the uneducated, or the elderly? Why should older working class white people see their neighbourhoods transformed in ways they don't like, and from which they don't benefit, and in pursuit of a policy - mass immigration - no party has ever honestly put to the voters?Philip_Thompson said:
How does a belief in a free market solution to a problem suit the Labour Party? It is a perfectly Conservative solution. If you don't like what you have buy something different, capitalism in motion.SeanT said:
That's a fairly obnoxious remark. And stupid. Go join the Labour Party. You'd fit right in.Philip_Thompson said:If you don't like your area you can move, its a free country. We're talking about people who've traversed the world to get where you are but you can't apparently move a few miles to a different town. Boo hoo go cry me a river.
EDIT: Instead of thinking the government should solve every issue without anyone taking any responsibility for what they want. That is the Labour way of thinking.
It's a betrayal of the proles by the elite. Labour's betrayal is worse, of course. They have crapped on the very people they were meant to protect. I'm glad they are now committing suicide.
Well I'm not saying people should move. I'm saying if he finds his area so bad then he has the option of doing so. I've never believed the government should fix everything for everyone so everyone has no problems - that is insane and Labour. I believe if you have a problem you can try and fix it yourself, that is why I'm a Tory. Well if Tykejonno has a proble, he has an answer within his own hands.
As for not having the money or the ability, I suspect he has more money (don't know about ability) than those in Calais who've moved over from Africa. If he doesn't want to spend his money on what he views as a problem for him then fine, beg the government for a solution. Like every other socialist that wants the government to solve all their problems.0 -
Cuckoo CuckooOchEye said:
There is also the review from the Rank and File that is due to be published soon. Rumour has it, it doesn't make for happy bed time reading for Sir Stephen, or for Nicola Sturgeon either, who, since the policing of Scotland is fully devolved, is the one to take all the blame.CarlottaVance said:Sir Stephen House falls on his sword Taser:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34072703
She can't, unfortunately for her, blame her predecessor 'cos he's 400 odd miles down souf, the Leader over the Water (Thames), waiting to recalled to the colours to do his duty once more to save the SNP in their hour of greatest need as the party disintegrates in Holyrood.0 -
People aren't expecting the government to fix the problem. They just expect the government to stop making it worse.Philip_Thompson said:
Well I'm not saying people should move. I'm saying if he finds his area so bad then he has the option of doing so. I've never believed the government should fix everything for everyone so everyone has no problems - that is insane and Labour. I believe if you have a problem you can try and fix it yourself, that is why I'm a Tory. Well if Tykejonno has a proble, he has an answer within his own hands.0 -
It's not so much half and half as being whole-heartedly one this week, and the other next week. Sometimes on the same subject.Casino_Royale said:
Oborne has always struck me as half traditional Conservative and half student radical.Sean_F said:http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/corbyn-troublemaker-1532484034
Corbyn gets the backing of Peter Oborne.0 -
So you are saying you do have less money and ability than the people who've up-sticks and moved country let alone house? Fair enough I was assuming you had more but were choosing not to spend your money as you didn't want to, my mistake apparently.Tykejohnno said:
Top post Sean.SeanT said:
Has it not occurred to you that some people don't have the money or ability to just up sticks and move? Like the uneducated, or the elderly? Why should older working class white people see their neighbourhoods transformed in ways they don't like, and from which they don't benefit, and in pursuit of a policy - mass immigration - no party has ever honestly put to the voters?Philip_Thompson said:
How does a belief in a free market solution to a problem suit the Labour Party? It is a perfectly Conservative solution. If you don't like what you have buy something different, capitalism in motion.SeanT said:
That's a fairly obnoxious remark. And stupid. Go join the Labour Party. You'd fit right in.Philip_Thompson said:If you don't like your area you can move, its a free country. We're talking about people who've traversed the world to get where you are but you can't apparently move a few miles to a different town. Boo hoo go cry me a river.
EDIT: Instead of thinking the government should solve every issue without anyone taking any responsibility for what they want. That is the Labour way of thinking.
It's a betrayal of the proles by the elite. Labour's betrayal is worse, of course. They have crapped on the very people they were meant to protect. I'm glad they are now committing suicide.0 -
Thought I'd mention that Jeremy Corbyn's used coffee cup is currently up for auction on ebay. Top bid is £5.50.0
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Again,the government are causing the problem,that's the bloody answer.Philip_Thompson said:
I think you misread me. I said all along I don't think the problems are as bad as Tykejonno makes out. But he keeps insisting his area is worse than mine and I don't know what its like etc, etc, etcSeanT said:
Has it not occurred to you that some people don't have the money or ability to just up sticks and move? Like the uneducated, or the elderly? Why should older working class white people see their neighbourhoods transformed in ways they don't like, and from which they don't benefit, and in pursuit of a policy - mass immigration - no party has ever honestly put to the voters?Philip_Thompson said:
How does a belief in a free market solution to a problem suit the Labour Party? It is a perfectly Conservative solution. If you don't like what you have buy something different, capitalism in motion.SeanT said:
That's a fairly obnoxious remark. And stupid. Go join the Labour Party. You'd fit right in.Philip_Thompson said:If you don't like your area you can move, its a free country. We're talking about people who've traversed the world to get where you are but you can't apparently move a few miles to a different town. Boo hoo go cry me a river.
EDIT: Instead of thinking the government should solve every issue without anyone taking any responsibility for what they want. That is the Labour way of thinking.
It's a betrayal of the proles by the elite. Labour's betrayal is worse, of course. They have crapped on the very people they were meant to protect. I'm glad they are now committing suicide.
Well I'm not saying people should move. I'm saying if he finds his area so bad then he has the option of doing so. I've never believed the government should fix everything for everyone so everyone has no problems - that is insane and Labour. I believe if you have a problem you can try and fix it yourself, that is why I'm a Tory. Well if Tykejonno has a proble, he has an answer within his own hands.
As for not having the money or the ability, I suspect he has more money (don't know about ability) than those in Calais who've moved over from Africa. If he doesn't want to spend his money on what he views as a problem for him then fine, beg the government for a solution. Like every other socialist that wants the government to solve all their problems.0 -
LOL, Next you will be telling him to eat cake. You related to IDS.Philip_Thompson said:
If you don't like your area you can move, its a free country. We're talking about people who've traversed the world to get where you are but you can't apparently move a few miles to a different town. Boo hoo go cry me a river.Tykejohnno said:
Because people like you talk a good game on immigration but when it comes to living with poor mass immigration areas,you haven't a clue when my quality of life starts to suffer.Philip_Thompson said:
You asked me a question. You don't know my area but I don't see how its relevant or why I should care at all. I don't care.Tykejohnno said:
Come off it,your area is no where near what I'm talking about.Philip_Thompson said:
No. Though at the bottom of my road most of the shops are in Arabic. My local barber is there, he's a nice guy. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.Tykejohnno said:
Would you say your a ethnic minority in your area you live ?Philip_Thompson said:
No many of my neighbours are (I'm guessing from language spoken and appearance) ethnically Polish and Arabic. I have no idea about how skilled or unskilled they are, though I wouldn't call myself unskilled.Tykejohnno said:
What you have a Chinese restaurant at the end of the street.Philip_Thompson said:
I live in a multicultural area.Tykejohnno said:
What you need Mr Thompson is a dose of real life living in a poor inner city multicultural area where more and more poor unskilled people are being shoved in.Philip_Thompson said:
Who will they be lost to? Realistically voting UKIP is no different to abstaining, while Labour aren't exactly going to win votes on the subject. No other party seems relevant to a conversation on immigration.Tykejohnno said:I gave Cameron my trust on immigration,he's nothing more than a big fat liar.
The new Tories will lose voters just like new labour did on immigration.
Wake up and smell the coffee.
I also mentioned the words poor and poor unskilled immigration.
There are many areas where voting Labour and voting for Corbyn style economics is very popular. I don't agree with them, nor do I agree with others I disagree with. Strange that.
Again,can't see you coming to live in the area I live any time soon.0 -
Ha ha. There is no such thing as "computer security".JosiasJessop said:
Anyone considering supporting electronic voting should watch the following:Barnesian said:
I think on-line voting should be made compulsory. We should scrap paper voting slips and polling stations.Animal_pb said:
Equally unsurprising: cheap, online voting tends to maximise Corbynista representation.Richard_Nabavi said:Mind you, none of this is remotely surprising. 'Naive extreme-left winger draws support from naive extreme left-wingers' seems a bit of a non-headline.
If that's the future of democracy, we're in real trouble.
This would encourage more people to vote, particulary young people. It might discourage some elderly from voting but that would be fine. It would help redress the current unfair bias to the elderly in the current system which is corrupting politics and encouraging inter-generational conflict.
I hope JC adds this to his policies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_0x6oaDmI
It's madness.0 -
It's looking increasingly like it's the drastic move to stay in an unreformed EU. But yes, if politicians think we'd need to leave the EU to control immigration they should say so.NickPalmer said:
Corbyn's line should (IMO) be that it's best to be honest. We can't stop immigration, short of the drastic move of withdrawing from both EU and EEA. Mr Cameron says he can, and is proved wrong - some would say untruthful - every single time the figures are published. I say that we can't, and instead should move to dealing with it in a reasonable way that treats people as individuals who are encouraged to integrate and contribute to a thriving society.Cyclefree said:
Save that Corbyn wants even more immigration and to remove what controls do exist e.g. on the minimum income needed. So Corbyn is hardly like to challenge Cameron on this and if he does Cameron has an easy answer.Tykejohnno said:
One of the big issues Cameron could have clobbered the new labour leader like open door corbyn with was on immigration,now corbyn can laugh in his face.
It's pretty much what I said on the doorstep for years, and not IMO a contributory reason to why I lost. Even people who were pretty anti-immigration generally accepted it as a straight answer, and some were really more anti-weaselly politicians than they were anti-immigration.0 -
The thing is, our economy is not particularly successful. But, neighbouring economies are a good deal less successful.CarlottaVance said:
Post of the day.DavidL said:The question is not whether this is what we wanted or even who is to blame, the question is, is this not an inevitable consequence of the UK being as it is in 2015?
Its ironic - but Cameron is being punished for economic success - the better the British economy does, the more will want to come, the fewer Brits (or Poles) will want to leave.....
They should probably just STFU about immigration beyond stopping the bogus colleges and get on with house building.....
The government could just shrug and say "suck it up", but Conservative voters are very very concerned about immigration, and will go elsewhere if the government takes that attitude.0 -
It's different in that it has one small avenue for semi-skilled worker, not a vast river for completely unskilled workers. And non-workers.flightpath01 said:
I am not so sure it is true to say as JEO says that Canadian immigrants are high skilled.
http://immigrationcanadaservices.com/job-opportunity-for-low-skilled-workers-in-canada/
''There are more than 60 ways for immigration into Canada''
''Job Opportunity for Low Skilled Workers in Canada -
Canadian provinces offer Permanent Residency to semi-skilled workers
Some Canadian provinces offer Canadian Permanent Residency nominations for workers in semi-skilled professions such as: manufacturing, transportation, food and beverage, and hospitality occupations.''
Does that sound familiar? Where is Canada any different to anybody else.
And it's only some provinces doing this - the ones which have had very low immigration to date.0 -
Not sure. The Tories could have had Burnham - who has been a walking talking embarrassment - as opposition leader. As it is, they'll get Corbyn, but even Labour will manage to defenestrate him. Won't they? Surely? Maybe they won't. Carry on, Osborne.SeanT said:How true. How very true
@youngvulgarian: Blimey - Osborne's move to have the Welfare Bill vote when he did pretty much was a stroke of genius, wasn't it.0 -
The old ones...MarkHopkins said:
Agreed. I like technology and software. I know it very well. And I wouldn't touch e-voting with a bargepole.JosiasJessop said:
Anyone considering supporting electronic voting should watch the following:Barnesian said:
I think on-line voting should be made compulsory. We should scrap paper voting slips and polling stations.Animal_pb said:
Equally unsurprising: cheap, online voting tends to maximise Corbynista representation.Richard_Nabavi said:Mind you, none of this is remotely surprising. 'Naive extreme-left winger draws support from naive extreme left-wingers' seems a bit of a non-headline.
If that's the future of democracy, we're in real trouble.
This would encourage more people to vote, particulary young people. It might discourage some elderly from voting but that would be fine. It would help redress the current unfair bias to the elderly in the current system which is corrupting politics and encouraging inter-generational conflict.
I hope JC adds this to his policies.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_0x6oaDmI
It's madness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFw8Vjdj7UQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg_KbuSFLRg
0 -
Get her to post here and I'll be happy to repeat myself. Criminals should be dealt with the full force of the law. Stopping the revolving door of prosecuting criminals only to see them get released back onto the streets with barely a slap on the wrist would do more than tinkering with migration. There are plenty of white British criminals on the streets too - my personal experiences of crime include being a victim of GBH having my eyesocket shattered and nearly losing vision in one eye - attacker got a six month sentence and would have been out after 3 months at the most; having my house broken into - culprit got a suspended sentence; and having an armed robbery at work - culprit got away with it.SeanT said:"Problems not that bad". Tell that to my policewoman girlfriend, and the many many hundreds of girls that get gangraped in "diverse" London communities. She deals with them. You don't.
None of the culprits were migrants. Tackle law and order, not just scapegoat migrants.0 -
The main fly in that particular ointment is the increasingly pissed off electorate.CarlottaVance said:
Post of the day.DavidL said:The question is not whether this is what we wanted or even who is to blame, the question is, is this not an inevitable consequence of the UK being as it is in 2015?
Its ironic - but Cameron is being punished for economic success - the better the British economy does, the more will want to come, the fewer Brits (or Poles) will want to leave.....
They should probably just STFU about immigration beyond stopping the bogus colleges and get on with house building.....
If Labour come to their senses in a couple of years and elect some blurred copy of Blair it is going to get interesting, there will be almost nothing to say on the subject of policy between them, and 4 million voters up for grabs on the subject of immigration.0 -
As far as I can tell, he'd like this country to be a Christian theocracy. But, since that's not possible, he'll settle for a Muslim theocracy as the next best thing. Even though, such a theocracy would make it all but impossible for him to practise his religion.Casino_Royale said:
Oborne has always struck me as half traditional Conservative and half student radical.Sean_F said:http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/corbyn-troublemaker-1532484034
Corbyn gets the backing of Peter Oborne.0 -
It is not "unsatisfactory". It is democracy. Politicians pay attention to those who vote. If the young want to be listened to by politicians, they should vote. This is not hard for them to understand.Barnesian said:
But in practice the young don't vote and the old do. As you admit, policies are geared to the old because they do vote. It is unsatisfactory.Cyclefree said:
What a curious view. You are fine with not having older people vote while trying to make it easier for younger people who are well able to get off their backsides and go and vote. There is no unfair bias going on. The fact that policies are geared to the old is because they do vote. The young have the vote. They choose not exercise their vote and must, like grown ups, live with the consequences. The answer is very literally in their hands: the pencil or the postal vote.Barnesian said:
I think on-line voting should be made compulsory. We should scrap paper voting slips and polling stations.Animal_pb said:
Equally unsurprising: cheap, online voting tends to maximise Corbynista representation.Richard_Nabavi said:Mind you, none of this is remotely surprising. 'Naive extreme-left winger draws support from naive extreme left-wingers' seems a bit of a non-headline.
If that's the future of democracy, we're in real trouble.
This would encourage more people to vote, particulary young people. It might discourage some elderly from voting but that would be fine. It would help redress the current unfair bias to the elderly in the current system which is corrupting politics and encouraging inter-generational conflict.
I hope JC adds this to his policies.
One solution is compulsory voting. I don't like that because it is coercive. I prefer the "nudge" solution of using up-to-date technology that young people enjoy using.0 -
The odd thing is the people who are most vociferous about leaving the EU because they say it would mean we could deal with immigration more effectively seem to be massively more exercised by non-EU (and in particular muslim) immigration than about EU workers. It's a massive disconnect. (And that's even without considering the fact that many of them want us to sign straight back in to EU immigration via a trade agreement or EEA membership).0
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isam • Posts: 15,655
August 24 • edited August 24
Philip_Thompson said:
I'm saying we should judge any agreement made at face value. Though the EU-exit associate membership Cameron rightly rejected that you seem outraged at still requires open doors migration with the EU.
As for 2020, Dave will be gone. I'd love a politician to say the truth - migration is a good thing and we should be proud of the fact people choose to live in our country. But that really is a pipe dream that is never going to happen." I'd love a politician to say the truth - migration is a good thing and we should be proud of the fact people choose to live in our country. But that really is a pipe dream that is never going to happen."
isam said:
Jeremy Corbyn said it last week0 -
Very good point. If we want to reduce non-EU migration the power is in our hands.Richard_Nabavi said:The odd thing is the people who are most vociferous about leaving the EU because they say it would mean we could deal with immigration more effectively seem to be massively more exercided by non-EU (and in particular muslim) immigration than about EU workers. It's a massive disconnect.
0 -
I responded at the time something along the lines of "Touché. I meant a serious (Conservative) politician. Boris Johnson I think shares that view but as he wants to be leader isn't really being vocal on the subject anymore." I'd add that when BoJo was being vocally pro-migration he was viewed as a non-serious politician.isam said:isam • Posts: 15,655
August 24 • edited August 24
Philip_Thompson said:
I'm saying we should judge any agreement made at face value. Though the EU-exit associate membership Cameron rightly rejected that you seem outraged at still requires open doors migration with the EU.
As for 2020, Dave will be gone. I'd love a politician to say the truth - migration is a good thing and we should be proud of the fact people choose to live in our country. But that really is a pipe dream that is never going to happen." I'd love a politician to say the truth - migration is a good thing and we should be proud of the fact people choose to live in our country. But that really is a pipe dream that is never going to happen."
isam said:
Jeremy Corbyn said it last week0 -
One of my post has disappeared,oh well,it was directed to Thompson 0
-
"Who calls for stopping immigration?"Sean_F said:
Who calls for stopping immigration?NickPalmer said:
Corbyn's line should (IMO) be that it's best to be honest. We can't stop immigration, short of the drastic move of withdrawing from both EU and EEA. Mr Cameron says he can, and is proved wrong - some would say untruthful - every single time the figures are published. I say that we can't, and instead should move to dealing with it in a reasonable way that treats people as individuals who are encouraged to integrate and contribute to a thriving society.Cyclefree said:
Save that Corbyn wants even more immigration and to remove what controls do exist e.g. on the minimum income needed. So Corbyn is hardly like to challenge Cameron on this and if he does Cameron has an easy answer.Tykejohnno said:
One of the big issues Cameron could have clobbered the new labour leader like open door corbyn with was on immigration,now corbyn can laugh in his face.
It's pretty much what I said on the doorstep for years, and not IMO a contributory reason to why I lost. Even people who were pretty anti-immigration generally accepted it as a straight answer, and some were really more anti-weaselly politicians than they were anti-immigration.
Reducing it to the level we had prior to 2000 is not an unreasonable objective. And let's not kid ourselves that the economy would grind to a halt without present levels of immigration. The growth rate per capita since 2000 has been far below the level of growth per capita we saw between 1960-2000.
Classic slippery lefty technique...
The fact is the Conservatives Labour and Lib Dems want uncontrolled immigration (all three have overseen record increases),
UKIP want controlled immigration,
BNP etc want no immigration
Two extremes with one sensible party in the middle0 -
The most recent poll before the crisis was Yes 54% No 46%.SeanT said:The immigration crisis is just perfectly timed for eurosceptics. This is the one issue which could easily persuade Brits to vote OUT. And it looks like it's only going to worsen between now and the referendum.
The beauty of it for BOOers is that they don't even have to offer an alternative. They just have to say This will halve immigration overnight. And they'll be right.0 -
The issue is not stopping immigration but about letting into the country people who will benefit us and who will and want to integrate. Whereas we are now in a position where people are coming here that we may not or do not want, who may be of no benefit to us at all and who may also be wholly unwilling or unable to integrate with Western values.NickPalmer said:
Corbyn's line should (IMO) be that it's best to be honest. We can't stop immigration, short of the drastic move of withdrawing from both EU and EEA. Mr Cameron says he can, and is proved wrong - some would say untruthful - every single time the figures are published. I say that we can't, and instead should move to dealing with it in a reasonable way that treats people as individuals who are encouraged to integrate and contribute to a thriving society.Cyclefree said:
Save that Corbyn wants even more immigration and to remove what controls do exist e.g. on the minimum income needed. So Corbyn is hardly like to challenge Cameron on this and if he does Cameron has an easy answer.Tykejohnno said:
One of the big issues Cameron could have clobbered the new labour leader like open door corbyn with was on immigration,now corbyn can laugh in his face.
It's pretty much what I said on the doorstep for years, and not IMO a contributory reason to why I lost. Even people who were pretty anti-immigration generally accepted it as a straight answer, and some were really more anti-weaselly politicians than they were anti-immigration.
I am very happy to have the former - and wholly unwilling to have the latter. I can see no good reason, for instance, to permit mass immigration from a violence and extremism-ridden war zone. You only need to look at the problems France has with its Arab population. It would be utter madness given what is going on in the Arab world today to repeat that in the UK. Corbyn makes no distinction between those immigrants who are worthwhile additions to Britain and those who aren't or aren't likely to be or where the risks are too great.
Cameron hasn't been honest. But Corbyn is not being honest either.
0 -
Current Lords:
Con 226, Lab 212, LD 101, Crossbench 179, Others 63, Total = 781
Announced today:
Con +26, Lab +8, LD +11
Other changes pending:
Con +1 (Hereditary by-election), Lab -1 (Hattersley retirement)
So position going forward will be:
Con 253, Lab 219, LD 112, Crossbench 179, Others 63, Total = 826
So Lab + LD have 78 more Peers than Con. So still just about impossible for Con to win if Lab + LD officially oppose as there are rarely more than 78 Crossbenchers present and even if there are some will always go with Lab/LD so winning by a net 78 is nigh on impossible.
However situation will improve as Lab + LD have many more existing Life Peers than Con - many of whom are old so will suffer a much higher attrition rate. Remember any Hereditaries who die / retire get replaced from same Party so no Hereditary attrition.
Plus Cameron can make more new appointments over time. Key vote on Boundary Changes will be in October 2018.0 -
EU membership ties our hands on this issue. People from outside the EU can after all gain the right to move here, after being naturalised by other EU member states. EU membership also requires us to remain signed up to the ECHR, as currently interpreted, making it that much harder for us to deport undesirables.Richard_Nabavi said:The odd thing is the people who are most vociferous about leaving the EU because they say it would mean we could deal with immigration more effectively seem to be massively more exercised by non-EU (and in particular muslim) immigration than about EU workers. It's a massive disconnect. (And that's even without considering the fact that many of them want us to sign straight back in to EU immigration via a trade agreement or EEA membership).
0 -
Yes that made you look even worse. Agreeing with the party because you define yourself as a supporter of, even when you actually agree with CorbynPhilip_Thompson said:
I responded at the time something along the lines of "Touché. I meant a serious (Conservative) politician. Boris Johnson I think shares that view but as he wants to be leader isn't really being vocal on the subject anymore." I'd add that when BoJo was being vocally pro-migration he was viewed as a non-serious politician.isam said:isam • Posts: 15,655
August 24 • edited August 24
Philip_Thompson said:
I'm saying we should judge any agreement made at face value. Though the EU-exit associate membership Cameron rightly rejected that you seem outraged at still requires open doors migration with the EU.
As for 2020, Dave will be gone. I'd love a politician to say the truth - migration is a good thing and we should be proud of the fact people choose to live in our country. But that really is a pipe dream that is never going to happen." I'd love a politician to say the truth - migration is a good thing and we should be proud of the fact people choose to live in our country. But that really is a pipe dream that is never going to happen."
isam said:
Jeremy Corbyn said it last week0 -
Particularly now you have Germany, Italy and Sweden offering an open door, but then demanding that other EU member states do the same.SeanT said:The immigration crisis is just perfectly timed for eurosceptics. This is the one issue which could easily persuade Brits to vote OUT. And it looks like it's only going to worsen between now and the referendum.
The beauty of it for BOOers is that they don't even have to offer an alternative. They just have to say This will halve immigration overnight. And they'll be right.0 -
The people in Calais have no valid visa, and in almost all cases fail their asylum claim, they therefore have no lawful reason to be admitted to the country, so what they have or don't have should be beside the point.Philip_Thompson said:As for not having the money or the ability, I suspect he has more money (don't know about ability) than those in Calais who've moved over from Africa. If he doesn't want to spend his money on what he views as a problem for him then fine, beg the government for a solution. Like every other socialist that wants the government to solve all their problems.
The fact that they are permitted through incompetence to enter the country, and when in the country are permitted to stay is a disgrace.
The fact that this incompetent shambles removed UKVI resources from processing the applications of lawful applications waiting patiently in line is a complete disgrace.
The nett effect of young, mostly male, frequently armed, frequently violent criminals get allowed to enter our country faster than people following the rules and the vast majority of cases are allowed to stay is not only a disgrace, its completely unjust and unethical.
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