politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Even UKIP voters back the plan that cigarettes be sold in p

FPT (but more relevant to this):-

Rather than faffing about with plain packaging etc isn't the obvious answer for those who care about smoking-related deaths/illnesses to ban smoking and the sale of cigarettes?

If smoking is legal then it is illogical to place excessive limits on how it is sold/marketed.

Just to be clear I don't smoke and don't much care one way or the other about this issue. But if harm to health is the deciding factor then it makes no sense to allow any smoking at all. The same could, of course, be said of alcohol etc.

Our approach to legislation on these "lifestyle" issues does appear a bit muddled.

Then let UKIP put it in their 2015 manifesto......

Darned thing democracy - politicians having to win elections.....

And completely O/T:

I hate the way that people talk of rising house prices as a good thing. Inflation is never a good thing. The only reason why a house should go up in value is if it has been genuinely improved e.g. an extra bedroom or whatever not because of a bubble and insufficient supply.

We will have a sensible economy when house prices are stable, people buy houses to live in them, there is a supply of good quality property for rent on medium/long-term leases and newspapers are not full of articles about how houses are going up in value by 2% a month or whatever.

To whom?

Do you expect Ed or Nick to gain lots of votes by making this a defining issue of the 2015 GE?

MikeSmithson said:

Taking steps to stop people smoking would seem to be a priority

RobD said:

Perhaps the distinction to be made here is between an issue that people support, and an issue that people think is a national priority.

Wht a stupid comment.

CarlottaVance said:

To whom?

Do you expect Ed or Nick to gain lots of votes by making this a defining issue of the 2015 GE?

MikeSmithson said:

Taking steps to stop people smoking would seem to be a priority

RobD said:

Perhaps the distinction to be made here is between an issue that people support, and an issue that people think is a national priority.

It’s being said that one of the reasons why the government has deferred the decision on cigarettes being sold in plain packaging is because of UKIP. CON ministers in particular didn’t want to provide ammunition for the most well-known of political smokers, Nigel Farage.

By whom?

Central Lobby ‏@CentralLobby

.@alisonseabeck asks at #pmqs about @CarersUK research showing 90% of carers lose out in welfare changes http://polho.me/1bhTGJG #PHcarefocusCarers UK ‏@CarersUK 1

shocking story on @Channel4News shows #carers caring for severely disabled grandson hit by #bedroomtax http://www.channel4.com/news/catch-up/display/playlistref/100713/clipid/100713_4ON_BEDTAX_VT …

Carers UK ‏@CarersUK 1h

My husband has Huntington's. I've suffered 2 strokes caring for him: yet we're refused help to cover the #bedroomtax http://carersuk.org/get-involved/bedroom-tax-campaign/your-letters-to-the-prime-minister …

Carers UK ‏@CarersUK 1

'#bedroomtax is having a shocking impact on families already struggling to care for disabled loved ones' @Independent http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/governments-bedroom-tax-forces-carers-to-cut-back-on-food-8698451.html …

CIH ‏@CIHhousing 5h

Applications to hardship fund surge 300% in first month of #bedroomtax http://ow.ly/mTnQf via @insidehousing

Same old nasty party.

Does the EU still subsidise tobacco farmers?

Australia will have to mess up badly not to win from here. Pre-Ashes over-confidence from many in England looks ever so slightly hubristic right now. Our batting is desperately weak.

As easy a choice as plain packaging is for anyone not being lobbied, the bedroom tax just isn't going to go away as an issue and lib dems and tories best get used to it being one which dogs them all the way till 2015.

SwindonCarersCentre ‏@SwindonCarers 17m

Carers deliver ‘bedroom tax’ letters to No. 10 http://tinyurl.com/qb8eqah

P'ways Thru Dementia ‏@pathwaydementia 4m

Just reading some of the letters carers have written to their MPs regarding the bedroom tax, truly heartbreaking

FPT (I finally got the table to fit!)

Max_Edinburgh said:

tim said:

michael burke ‏@menburke 2h
ONS: #Construction is lower now even than in 2008/09 http://bit.ly/1dm5mJI When Osborne says housing is recovering, he means higher prices

The usual suspects appear to have missed the construction data, as they did the manufacturing and export announcements.
Good at cheering on bubble though.

Not unlike your ability to miss every single good piece of economic news. A coincidence I'm sure. You are in absolutely no position to accuse others of being selective.

I get the very strong impression that economics isn't exactly your strong point.

You are quite right, Max, econometrics is not tim's area of expertise.

The Construction data released this morning may not be "good" in absolute terms but relative to the previous quarter they were flat which represents a big improvement on recent trends.

This bodes well for Q2 GDP as can be seen from the following ONS table:

------------------------------------------------------------
                                       Percentage Change    
Public|% GDP|Release|Month|Q 2013 | Q 2013  |M 2013 |M 2013 
      |     |date   |of   |on same| on prev.|on same|on prev
      |     |       |GDP  |Q 2012 | Q 2013  |M 2012 |M 2013 
------------------------------------------------------------
             09 Jul  May   -1.9	  |  0.2    | -2.3     0.0  
Prod.  15.2  11 Jun  Apr   -1.9	  |  0.4    | -1.4    -0.1  
             09 May  Q1	   -2.6	  |  0.3    | -2.0     0.0  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
             12 Jul  May   -4.8	  |  0.0    | -4.8     0.0  
Const.  6.3  14 Jun  Apr     :    |   :     | -2.2     4.6  
             10 May  Q1	   -6.3	  | -2.4    |   :       :   
------------------------------------------------------------
             25 Jul  May      	  |         |               
Serv.  77.8  28 Jun  Apr    1.8	  |  0.8    |  2.0     0.2  
             23 May  Q1	    1.3	  |  0.5    |  1.2     0.0  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
             20 Jun  May    0.7	  |  0.7    |  1.9     2.1  
Retail       22 May  Apr    0.8	  |  0.9    |  0.8    -1.1  
             18 Apr  Q1	    0.4	  |  0.5    | -0.4    -0.5  
----------------------------------------------------------  
Agri.   0.7                Not available monthly	          
-----------------------------------------------------------

The "Q 2013 on previous Q 2013" is the key column.

The problem with construction is the massive fall in output which followed the financial crisis and which was much larger than the general fall in GDP. On the year on year figures, further note should be taken of the distortions caused by May 2013 having one more bank holiday than May 2012.

This is shown in the ONS introduction to the above table:

The most recent estimate of gross domestic product (GDP) confirmed the UK economy grew by 0.3% in the first quarter of 2013 following a contraction of 0.2% in Q4 2012. Construction output has contrasted these recent movements, falling by 2.4% in Q1 2013 after a short-lived return to growth (0.8%) in the previous quarter.

Looking at the longer term trend, GDP has fallen by 3.9% in the five years since the first quarter of 2008, whereas construction output has fallen by 18.9% over the same time period.

Construction estimates are highly responsive to the economic cycle and have provided some of the largest downward contributions to GDP. In terms of volume, construction output fell to £23,669 million in Q1 2013. This is the lowest level since Q1 1999 and £309 million below the previous trough in Q3 2009.

Given the cold weather depressed Q1 resulted in a contraction of -2.4%, flat monthly and quarterly figures for May (and to May) are, in context, good outcomes and bode well for Q2 2013 GDP growth being solid.

The good news just won't stop coming, tim, even in areas of great diffculty for the economy.

And before you bang on about house prices, GDP growth is driven by volume not value.

RobD said:

MikeSmithson said:

Taking steps to stop people smoking would seem to be a priority

RobD said:

Perhaps the distinction to be made here is between an issue that people support, and an issue that people think is a national priority.

Hm, I think this measure is all about stopping people starting. Although I question how much bearing a shiny packet has on teenagers wanting to start smoking in the first place - very little I'd imagine. Hiding them away would surely be a more logical measure.

I've never smoked, and never wanted to. But I wonder if there is a limit to what the government can do wrt smoking to try to prevent people starting the habit.

Take drink-driving. It is rightly seen socially as a no-no - you should not drink-drive. Yet people still do it despite the laws, punishments and social tut-tutting.

I honestly don't know what the answer is to this one. But I was well aware of the harm cigarettes could cause when I was a kid in the eighties, and I doubt anyone is unaware now.

But people still smoke. Perhaps we should just educate them of the dangers, and let them get on with it? The same could be said for other minor addictive drugs as well, which is why I continually flip-flop on legalisation of cannabis ...

AveryLP said:

FPT (I finally got the table to fit!)

Max_Edinburgh said:

tim said:

michael burke ‏@menburke 2h
ONS: #Construction is lower now even than in 2008/09 http://bit.ly/1dm5mJI When Osborne says housing is recovering, he means higher prices

The usual suspects appear to have missed the construction data, as they did the manufacturing and export announcements.
Good at cheering on bubble though.

Not unlike your ability to miss every single good piece of economic news. A coincidence I'm sure. You are in absolutely no position to accuse others of being selective.

I get the very strong impression that economics isn't exactly your strong point.

You are quite right, Max, econometrics is not tim's area of expertise.

The Construction data released this morning may not be "good" in absolute terms but relative to the previous quarter they were flat which represents a big improvement on recent trends.

This bodes well for Q2 GDP as can be seen from the following ONS table:

------------------------------------------------------------
                                       Percentage Change    
Public|% GDP|Release|Month|Q 2013 | Q 2013  |M 2013 |M 2013 
      |     |date   |of   |on same| on prev.|on same|on prev
      |     |       |GDP  |Q 2012 | Q 2013  |M 2012 |M 2013 
------------------------------------------------------------
             09 Jul  May   -1.9	  |  0.2    | -2.3     0.0  
Prod.  15.2  11 Jun  Apr   -1.9	  |  0.4    | -1.4    -0.1  
             09 May  Q1	   -2.6	  |  0.3    | -2.0     0.0  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
             12 Jul  May   -4.8	  |  0.0    | -4.8     0.0  
Const.  6.3  14 Jun  Apr     :    |   :     | -2.2     4.6  
             10 May  Q1	   -6.3	  | -2.4    |   :       :   
------------------------------------------------------------
             25 Jul  May      	  |         |               
Serv.  77.8  28 Jun  Apr    1.8	  |  0.8    |  2.0     0.2  
             23 May  Q1	    1.3	  |  0.5    |  1.2     0.0  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
             20 Jun  May    0.7	  |  0.7    |  1.9     2.1  
Retail       22 May  Apr    0.8	  |  0.9    |  0.8    -1.1  
             18 Apr  Q1	    0.4	  |  0.5    | -0.4    -0.5  
----------------------------------------------------------  
Agri.   0.7                Not available monthly	          
-----------------------------------------------------------

The "Q 2013 on previous Q 2013" is the key column.

The problem with construction is the massive fall in output which followed the financial crisis and which was much larger than the general fall in GDP. On the year on year figures, further note should be taken of the distortions caused by May 2013 having one more bank holiday than May 2012.

This is shown in the ONS introduction to the above table:

The most recent estimate of gross domestic product (GDP) confirmed the UK economy grew by 0.3% in the first quarter of 2013 following a contraction of 0.2% in Q4 2012. Construction output has contrasted these recent movements, falling by 2.4% in Q1 2013 after a short-lived return to growth (0.8%) in the previous quarter.

Looking at the longer term trend, GDP has fallen by 3.9% in the five years since the first quarter of 2008, whereas construction output has fallen by 18.9% over the same time period.

Construction estimates are highly responsive to the economic cycle and have provided some of the largest downward contributions to GDP. In terms of volume, construction output fell to £23,669 million in Q1 2013. This is the lowest level since Q1 1999 and £309 million below the previous trough in Q3 2009.

Given the cold weather depressed Q1 resulted in a contraction of -2.4%, flat monthly and quarterly figures for May (and to May) are, in context, good outcomes and bode well for Q2 2013 GDP growth being solid.

The good news just won't stop coming, tim, even in areas of great diffculty for the economy.

And before you bang on about house prices, GDP growth is driven by volume not value.

Also it seemed like the construction figures had a positive component for house building, even if repair and maintenance was dragging them down.

JosiasJessop said:

I've never smoked, and never wanted to. But I wonder if there is a limit to what the government can do wrt smoking to try to prevent people starting the habit.

Bugger.. hit submit too soon.

Anyway, we must be approaching a break-even point where the monies raised by cigarette duties covers the extra burden bought onto the NHS by smokers. I wonder if there have been any recent studies by the treasury on this.

Cyclefree said:

Does the EU still subsidise tobacco farmers?

Don't know about the EU but the US still does. Generally the less healthy the crop in the US the more subsidy it seems to get!
Not really sure how much tobacco farming goes on in the EU to be honest.

The reason for not introducing plain packaging of cigarettes or minimum alcohol is nothing to do with UKIP.It's simply that the Tories always give in to industry lobbying. Two other recent examples - not splitting the banks and the appalling ditching of reforms of the newspaper industry.

When will Governments realise that the big companies have far too much power(due to pathetically weak competition law) and it their job to protect the public from abuse of industry power and its ill effects, not climb into bed with the perpetrators.

OT Good to see the councillors in my county have some sense of proportion and realise now is not the time for rises in their allowances. Unanimous as well so not a party political issue.

http://thelincolnite.co.uk/2013/07/lincolnshire-councillors-vote-against-allowance-rise/

Mick_Pork said:

Alanbrooke said:

Mick_Pork said:

As easy a choice as plain packaging is for anyone not being lobbied, the bedroom tax just isn't going to go away as an issue and lib dem and tories best get used to it being one which dogs them all the way till 2015.

SwindonCarersCentre ‏@SwindonCarers 17m

Carers deliver ‘bedroom tax’ letters to No. 10 http://tinyurl.com/qb8eqahP'ways Thru

Dementia ‏@pathwaydementia 4m

Just reading some of the letters carers have written to their MPs regarding the bedroom tax, truly heartbreaking

Is Labour going to change it ? No, they're just going to make themselves look stupid by getting their base riled up only to have to deflate them. Pointless Ed in action.

Probably so. Doesn't make it any less sh*tty and repugnant a policy though.

It absolutely is getting their base riled up and some of the lib dem base too which will help them until the truth dawns on their activists.

Samuel Miller ‏@Hephaestus7

Lib Dem activists vote against bedroom tax - Top stories - http://Scotsman.com http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/top-stories/lib-dem-activists-vote-against-bedroom-tax-1-2842808#.UUccRtkgERw.twitter …

Chuka Umunna ‏@ChukaUmunna

The #BedroomTax is just so cruel and unfair. Sign the Streatham Wells Labour petition against it here http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-the-bedroom-tax.html …

Are Labour prepared to make a manifesto commitment to increasing taxes on ordinary working folk so that those people who receive housing benefit can have an additional bedroom?

21 months from a GE and the best the opposition can come up with is silence.

Quite. If there are disabled people suffering then I'm sure the policy can be amended. It doesn't necessarily mean it should be scrapped.

Cyclefree said:

Mick_Pork said:

As easy a choice as plain packaging is for anyone not being lobbied, the bedroom tax just isn't going to go away as an issue and lib dem and tories best get used to it being one which dogs them all the way till 2015.

SwindonCarersCentre ‏@SwindonCarers 17m

Carers deliver ‘bedroom tax’ letters to No. 10 http://tinyurl.com/qb8eqah

P'ways Thru Dementia ‏@pathwaydementia 4m

Just reading some of the letters carers have written to their MPs regarding the bedroom tax, truly heartbreaking

I thought that disabled people were being made exempt from the rules on spare bedrooms. Or did I dream that?

You were merely gullible enough to fall for the tory spin.

C4 News FactCheck ‏@FactCheck

New on FactCheck: FactCheck: Cameron wrong again on “bedroom tax” detail http://bit.ly/1apTjz4

No huge crime, gullible tory eurosceptics have been falling for Cast Iron Cammie's spin on Europe for years yet they still keep coming back for more to be made a fool of.

Cyclefree said:

If not, it is unkind to force carers into this position. Those caring for the disabled are exactly the sort of people who should be helped by a properly designed welfare system.

Curiously, this family looking after a disabled child doesn't seem to be too grateful for this generous tory ideological 'help'. Maybe you should just tell them they've never had it so good?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMzzkYhp0Q8

Cyclefree said:

FPT (but more relevant to this):-

Rather than faffing about with plain packaging etc isn't the obvious answer for those who care about smoking-related deaths/illnesses to ban smoking and the sale of cigarettes?

If smoking is legal then it is illogical to place excessive limits on how it is sold/marketed.

Just to be clear I don't smoke and don't much care one way or the other about this issue. But if harm to health is the deciding factor then it makes no sense to allow any smoking at all. The same could, of course, be said of alcohol etc.

Our approach to legislation on these "lifestyle" issues does appear a bit muddled.

Oddly enough, I had exactly the same thought as I listened to this news item. There can't be many people left who aren't aware of the risks associated with smoking. There's a limit to how far we should go to try and save people from themselves.

Gerry_Mander said:

Mick_Pork said:

Alanbrooke said:

Mick_Pork said:

As easy a choice as plain packaging is for anyone not being lobbied, the bedroom tax just isn't going to go away as an issue and lib dem and tories best get used to it being one which dogs them all the way till 2015.

SwindonCarersCentre ‏@SwindonCarers 17m

Carers deliver ‘bedroom tax’ letters to No. 10 http://tinyurl.com/qb8eqahP'ways Thru

Dementia ‏@pathwaydementia 4m

Just reading some of the letters carers have written to their MPs regarding the bedroom tax, truly heartbreaking

Is Labour going to change it ? No, they're just going to make themselves look stupid by getting their base riled up only to have to deflate them. Pointless Ed in action.

Probably so. Doesn't make it any less sh*tty and repugnant a policy though.

It absolutely is getting their base riled up and some of the lib dem base too which will help them until the truth dawns on their activists.

Samuel Miller ‏@Hephaestus7

Lib Dem activists vote against bedroom tax - Top stories - http://Scotsman.com http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/top-stories/lib-dem-activists-vote-against-bedroom-tax-1-2842808#.UUccRtkgERw.twitter …

Chuka Umunna ‏@ChukaUmunna

The #BedroomTax is just so cruel and unfair. Sign the Streatham Wells Labour petition against it here http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-the-bedroom-tax.html …

Are Labour prepared to make a manifesto commitment to increasing taxes on ordinary working folk so that those people who receive housing benefit can have an additional bedroom?

Labour will be promoting a smoking room subsidy. Smoking jackets de rigeur but walls to be painted in plain magnolia.

Sean_F said:

Oddly enough, I had exactly the same thought as I listened to this news item. There can't be many people left who aren't aware of the risks associated with smoking. There's a limit to how far we should go to try and save people from themselves.

There can be no justification for trying to protect the consumer (saving minors/lunatics) from himself.

In the 1970s the government took a role in legislating wage differentials for manual workers today government seeks a role in deciding the packaging of legal products. Neither is the preserve of governments. On these governments may advise they should not legislate.

tim said:

Michael Savage ‏@michaelsavage
RT @JonathanArnott: It's now official....UKIP membership hit 30,000 for the first time just 2 minutes ago.

Dave thinks he has to get them down to 5% to stand a chance.
Helping tobacco sales is an interesting master strategy

I was amazed to read in an article from Daniel Finklestein that the Liberals "only" had 175,000 members in 1975. Now the Lib Dems have 49,000. In the modern era, 30,000 is rather a large number. I wonder if their membership will overtake the Conservatives' in the next Parliament.

The advertising and design industry isn't being paid tens of millions by big tobacco for a laugh. Packaging matters. If it didn't you can be certain big tobacco would hardly have wasted so much time and money lobbying against this.

That carers save the state far more money is a point so obvious only an incompetent fop could have missed it.

I think there are around 6 million carers, and I guess the number affected in any way by the bedroom tax will be....????? 100,000???

But I agree, disabled people are suffering, no matter how small a minority, then the law should be amended.

YossariansChild said:

In the 1970s the government took a role in legislating wage differentials for manual workers today government seeks a role in deciding the packaging of legal products. Neither is the preserve of governments. On these governments may advise they should not legislate.

Don't be daft. Government absolutely has a regulatory role here.

tim said:

Mick_Pork said:

tim said:

You're assuming it's going to save money.
At what point to rent arrears start to null it's effect.
Let alone the impact on carers who are saving the state a huge amount and now find themselves targeted.

And Cameron is going to find cash for married couples this autumn.

That carers save the state far more money is a point so obvious only an incompetent fop could have missed it.

Dave had money to pay for a private carer, and a taxpayer funded mortgage which he maximised to pay for the spare room they slept in.

And he still cannot see what he's doing.
Or more likely he can't be bothered if his replies at PMQs getting basic facts wrong are anything to go by.

yeah tim all of that, but since you're talking it all up where's the Labour proposal, what's Labour saying should be done differently, more tax or cut something else ?

The Grand Old Duke of Ed off on manoeuvres once again.

Meet you at the bottom of the hill.

Life_ina_market_town said:

@Alanbrooke
As Milton Friedman said, "living is dangerous to your health".

Proposals of this type always remind me of Auberon Waugh's satirical suggestion that the government should establish a National Register of Suspected Masturbators.

I don't know any smokers who think they are clever by smoking.
An enjoyable if expensive habit is probably the most optimistic reason.
Anyway you should thank us for smoking as we die younger and therefore receive less in pension payments.

richardDodd said:

Four pounds 20 for a pack of ten cigs proves my point..only fools smoke.

Jonathan said:

Alanbrooke said:

Jonathan said:

If it saves a single life it's worth it. End of story. No reason to wait.

The idea that it might cost jobs, suggests they think it would work.

Walt Disney politics, there are lots of things where banning would save a single life - air travel, skiing, the Labour party - should we ban them all or maybe just learn to come to terms with risk ?

The difference is there is absolutely no cost here. Just the removal of some logos, pictures and text that benefit precisely no-one.

so the ad agencies, designers and marketing departments will just carry on as usual ? There's always a knock on effect somewhere. And since the end goal is zero smoking then where's the tax hole going to be filled from and what are you proposing those working in factories do to fill their time. maybe they could become HMRC employees to counteract the increase in smuggling.

Emoting on the issue just makes bad policy. I have no issue in driving smoking down, but oversimplication based on slogans isn't the way to do it.

richardDodd said:

Four pounds 20 for a pack of ten cigs proves my point..only fools smoke.

Which will last me 2 days and I'll enjoy each one. It's about the same as you'd pay for a pint anyway.

richardDodd said:

20 a day costs circa 3k a year..to damage ones lungs, there must be cheaper ways.. drinking bleach or something equally noxious

Voting Labour?

richardDodd said:

20 a day costs circa 3k a year..to damage ones lungs, there must be cheaper ways.. drinking bleach or something equally noxious

and about 80% of that goes to HMG.

Yep, buy 'em abroad.
c €1300 and nearly £2k left for flghts and lovely Union beer at €2.20 a bottle

richardDodd said:

20 a day costs circa 3k a year..to damage ones lungs, there must be cheaper ways.. drinking bleach or something equally noxious

Jonathan said:

Alanbrooke said:

so the ad agencies, designers and marketing departments will just carry on as usual ?

Yes. If sport can do it, so can they.

Alanbrooke said:

There's always a knock on effect somewhere.

A few less avoidable tumors hopefully.

Alanbrooke said:

And since the end goal is zero smoking then where's the tax hole going to be filled from and what are you proposing those working in factories do to fill their time. maybe they could become HMRC employees to counteract the increase in smuggling.

Just suggests that removing branding could be effective.

Alanbrooke said:

Emoting on the issue just makes bad policy. I have no issue in driving smoking down, but oversimplication based on slogans isn't the way to do it.

This is very simple. Branding benefits no-one. It just attracts people to smoking. Smoking is a major killer. So get rid.

Alcohol causes early death, obesity causes early death, travel causes premature death. Where are you going to draw the line ?

richardDodd said:

AB How much does HMG get from a bottle of bleach, some Labour fanatics might just do it to deprive the dreaded Ozzy of some dosh..

bleach about 80p to 2 quid, 20% VAT so 16p to 40p to GO and they can see if they can wash their souls clean.

Grandiose said:

@YossariansChild The number of smokers has fallen year on year, along with the umber of young users of illegal drugs, and the amount young people drink. The fact is, removing the legitimacy of smoking, drug taking, or drinking works.

You are right, and this is a good thing. The main reason though is due to the raising of the age at which people could buy cigarettes from 16 to 18. See here https://catalogue.ic.nhs.uk/publications/public-health/surveys/smok-drin-drug-youn-peop-eng-2010/smok-drin-drug-youn-peop-eng-2010-rep1.pdf

The report also points out that teenagers get their first smokes from friends or family. So perhaps packaging will have little effect.

richardDodd said:

Max E .A pint doesnt last two days and does not play havoc with the old breathing apparatus..each fool to his own poison I suppose..not had a pint for many a year..Is it really over four quid now..

Depends where you go but in the centre of Edinburgh it's often around that!
In my defence I do go to the gym 5-6 times a week and I'm in reasonable shape. I see loads and loads of overweight people but it always seems to be smokers who get a hard time of it. Time to start taxing pasties and sausage rolls – surely no one could object to that.

Jonathan said:

Alanbrooke said:

Alcohol causes early death, obesity causes early death, travel causes premature death. Where are you going to draw the line ?

That easy. You're not comparing like with like.

Unlike food, drink and travel, branding on fags offers no benefit whatsoever. There is no cost from removing them.

ridiculous. What benefits does alcohol offer ? Why shouldn't whisky or vodka just come in a uni-bottle with identical labels ?

Austerity payback for Ireland

Standard & Poor's today uprated Ireland's sovereign risk to BBB+ stable from a previous negative outlook.

S&P stated that there was a one in three chance of Ireland's rating being uprated again in the next two years.

“Ireland could over-achieve its fiscal targets and reduce its government debt faster than we currently expect,” S&P said. “Ireland’s economic recovery is under way.”

Just where is BenM when you need him to comment?

Possibly on holiday in Italy whose rating was cut today from BBB+ to BBB with a negative outlook due to its economy continuing in recession.

No prizes too for Boy George: he keeps his top AAA rating as does Germany.

You think I am female and a mother?
I will wear a dress to the next Dirty Dicks do if you wear a shell suit.
Deal?

tim said:

Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:

I don't know any smokers who think they are clever by smoking.
An enjoyable if expensive habit is probably the most optimistic reason.
Anyway you should thank us for smoking as we die younger and therefore receive less in pension payments.

richardDodd said:

Four pounds 20 for a pack of ten cigs proves my point..only fools smoke.

It's not as simple as that, children of mothers who smoke have a much greater occurrence of respiratory illnesses, and that effect is often lifelong.

Add to that the pre term babies, low birth weight babies, increased use of neo natal care beds, increased sudden infant death syndrome etc etc.

Alanbrooke said:

AveryLP said:

Austerity payback for Ireland

Standard & Poor's uprated Ireland's sovereign risk from BBB+ from stable and reaffirmed Germany's AAA rating.

S&P stated that there was a one in three chance of Ireland's rating being uprated again in the next two years.

“Ireland could over-achieve its fiscal targets and reduce its government debt faster than we currently expect,” S&P said. “Ireland’s economic recovery is under way.”

Just where is BenM when you need him to comment?

Possibly on holiday in Italy whose rating was cut today from BBB+ to BBB with a negative outlook due to its economy continuing in recession.

No prizes too for Boy George: he keeps his top AAA rating as does Germany.

Does anyone actually take ratings agencies seriously still ?

The media more than the markets.

And some people still think they have political weight.

Alanbrooke said:

Jonathan said:

Alanbrooke said:

Alcohol causes early death, obesity causes early death, travel causes premature death. Where are you going to draw the line ?

That easy. You're not comparing like with like.

Unlike food, drink and travel, branding on fags offers no benefit whatsoever. There is no cost from removing them.

ridiculous. What benefits does alcohol offer ? Why shouldn't whisky or vodka just come in a uni-bottle with identical labels ?

Ridiculous? Really? Obviously you're getting off on cigarette advertising in ways I can't possibly imagine.

Having seen the damage both fags and booze can do am glad advertising is regulated. The case against fags is so clear, very strong measures are justified IMO. I don't think the case against booze is quite so one sided, but it is rightly controlled.

isam said:

Max_Edinburgh said:

richardDodd said:

Max E .A pint doesnt last two days and does not play havoc with the old breathing apparatus..each fool to his own poison I suppose..not had a pint for many a year..Is it really over four quid now..

Depends where you go but in the centre of Edinburgh it's often around that!
In my defence I do go to the gym 5-6 times a week and I'm in reasonable shape. I see loads and loads of overweight people but it always seems to be smokers who get a hard time of it. Time to start taxing pasties and sausage rolls – surely no one could object to that.

Only thing with that is that eating unhealthy food doesn't affect people sitting in the same room as you who are eating healthily

No but obesity does cost the taxpayer of which I am one.