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Comments
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Some of us random members of the public who can spare the price of a pint are!Indigo said:
The public are not electing the labour leader.HYUFD said:
Every poll of the public so farIndigo said:
With what pool of voters ?HYUFD said:
Burnham polls well ahead of CooperCromwell said:I agree with this except I don't expect Burnham to be even in second place in the first ballot as he is a very poor campaigner and dreadfully uninspiring candidate ; the voters don't like him as in the last Labour election he almost came last , just ahead of Abbot ...I expect Burnham to come a poor third , just in front of Kendall
I think Corbyns best chance is to win outright in the first ballot like Tony Blair did , but I doubt he will do that ....Corbynmania has already peaked and reached its high water mark ; it has spooked the Labour voters and will unify them behind the eventual winner , who I believe will be Yvette Cooper
The influx of new voters is worrysome as most of these must be Corbynites , but I suspect there will be just enough sensible sober minded voters to see off the threat of Corbynism ; I just don't think the LP are willing to throw in the towel and become an unelectable fringe /protest party just yet0 -
Heath was almost nearly before my time - I was one when he stopped being PM. Before I got interested in politics, all I knew about him was his hatred and seemingly constant undermining of Thatcher.Financier said:
Edward Heath had the same characteristic of T Blair - that of deceit.MikeSmithson said:
When was the last time a Tory leader, apart from Thatcher, won a sustainable working majority?SquareRoot said:Why is it that Labour have such a habit of electing no hopers as leader?
The answer is the leader the blues don't talk about - the great Edward Heath.
What were his greatest strengths and weaknesses as a PM? Why was he deceitful?0 -
That’s what the Labour Party is trying to do: remove the voters from the equation.
So Corbyn has brushed aside their verdict in favour of his own personal ideology. Although Britons voted for Cameron, he thinks what they really yearn for is a prime minister committed to “prioritising the needs of the poor and the human rights of us all”. Burnham prefers instead to rely on amateur psychology. Labour lost because it had no “emotional connection”. Cooper has opted for political expediency, rather than analysis. The lesson Labour must learn, she argues daringly, is that it “can’t afford to veer to the Left or the Right”.
None of this even remotely resembles a coherent attempt to come to terms with the lessons of May 7. Liz Kendall – to her credit – has tried to remind her party it needs to embrace a slightly wider constituency than those people who were seduced by Ed Miliband last time round. And she’s set to be rewarded with a humiliating fourth place for her efforts.
A few others are also trying to pull the debate back to the fundamentals. Jon Cruddas has begun publishing the findings of the polling he has commissioned into Labour’s defeat. His first tranche of data, released last week, revealed Labour actually lost support because it wasn’t seen as sufficiently supportive of austerity or deficit reduction – voters’ current litmus test for economic competence. But that didn’t quite fit with what Labour activists want to hear at the moment. So the leadership candidates opted to question his methodology, or simply ignore the findings all together.
Watching this Labour leadership election unfold has been like being inserted into an inverse time-warp
Rather than listen to the will of the people, Labour has again decided to tune them out. Which is of course what it did before the election, and why it lost that election. So it will again ignore the eleven and half million people who cast votes for Conservative candidates, and instead focus on the hundred or so people queuing round the block to get in to hear Corbyn call for a return to unilateralism, withdrawal from Nato and a massive increase in government expenditure financed by People’s Quantitative Easing (simply printing more money).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11793205/Are-you-a-voter-Think-that-you-know-best-Labour-doesnt.html0 -
I think it was a reference to a Certain EEC accession treaty...JosiasJessop said:
Heath was almost nearly before my time - I was one when he stopped being PM. Before I got interested in politics, all I knew about him was his hatred and seemingly constant undermining of Thatcher.Financier said:
Edward Heath had the same characteristic of T Blair - that of deceit.MikeSmithson said:
When was the last time a Tory leader, apart from Thatcher, won a sustainable working majority?SquareRoot said:Why is it that Labour have such a habit of electing no hopers as leader?
The answer is the leader the blues don't talk about - the great Edward Heath.
What were his greatest strengths and weaknesses as a PM? Why was he deceitful?0 -
A poll of public preferences isn't representative of the Labour membership, a couple of hundred Tories having a laugh, or a hundred thousand UNITE/UNISON entryists! My point was that Burnham cheerleaders shouldn't put too much value in that poll.GeoffM said:
Some of us random members of the public who can spare the price of a pint are!Indigo said:
The public are not electing the labour leader.HYUFD said:
Every poll of the public so farIndigo said:
With what pool of voters ?HYUFD said:
Burnham polls well ahead of CooperCromwell said:I agree with this except I don't expect Burnham to be even in second place in the first ballot as he is a very poor campaigner and dreadfully uninspiring candidate ; the voters don't like him as in the last Labour election he almost came last , just ahead of Abbot ...I expect Burnham to come a poor third , just in front of Kendall
I think Corbyns best chance is to win outright in the first ballot like Tony Blair did , but I doubt he will do that ....Corbynmania has already peaked and reached its high water mark ; it has spooked the Labour voters and will unify them behind the eventual winner , who I believe will be Yvette Cooper
The influx of new voters is worrysome as most of these must be Corbynites , but I suspect there will be just enough sensible sober minded voters to see off the threat of Corbynism ; I just don't think the LP are willing to throw in the towel and become an unelectable fringe /protest party just yet0 -
[Duplicate post]
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I fear your colourful analogy falls down somewhat - a fart that is all noise and no smell is preferable to the alternative, whatever else it may be. Kind of Cameron's deal I suppose, not really that effective in some ways, but not that objectionable either.Monksfield said:Risible 'toughness' from the Government on immigrant workers. All hot air as ever - just who is going to be undertaking these checks given the scale of cuts to the agencies who might do it? But it's not real is it? it's just more mummery for the Daily Mail. I bet even Cameron's farts are all noise and no smell.
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Burnham's pitch...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2ZpoCB4KRM
My family likes me...
And Scousers like me...0 -
I think the usual term is "silent but deadly..."kle4 said:
a fart that is all noise and no smell is preferable to the alternative, whatever else it may be.Monksfield said:Risible 'toughness' from the Government on immigrant workers. All hot air as ever - just who is going to be undertaking these checks given the scale of cuts to the agencies who might do it? But it's not real is it? it's just more mummery for the Daily Mail. I bet even Cameron's farts are all noise and no smell.
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He suffered from that patrician arrogance that has been the hallmark of so many post war Tory leaders - believing that they knew better than the electorate and that they were therefore entitled to lie to the public in order to achieve their aims.JosiasJessop said:
Heath was almost nearly before my time - I was one when he stopped being PM. Before I got interested in politics, all I knew about him was his hatred and seemingly constant undermining of Thatcher.Financier said:
Edward Heath had the same characteristic of T Blair - that of deceit.MikeSmithson said:
When was the last time a Tory leader, apart from Thatcher, won a sustainable working majority?SquareRoot said:Why is it that Labour have such a habit of electing no hopers as leader?
The answer is the leader the blues don't talk about - the great Edward Heath.
What were his greatest strengths and weaknesses as a PM? Why was he deceitful?
Heath was far and away the worst PM in post war British history. He even beats Brown to that particular title.0 -
I got to know him very well in his retirement. His strengths were very few if any (outside of music and yachting), his main weakness was his inability to tell the whole truth about any event/policy or face up to realism as shown by his words during the 1975 EU referendum.JosiasJessop said:
Heath was almost nearly before my time - I was one when he stopped being PM. Before I got interested in politics, all I knew about him was his hatred and seemingly constant undermining of Thatcher.Financier said:
Edward Heath had the same characteristic of T Blair - that of deceit.MikeSmithson said:
When was the last time a Tory leader, apart from Thatcher, won a sustainable working majority?SquareRoot said:Why is it that Labour have such a habit of electing no hopers as leader?
The answer is the leader the blues don't talk about - the great Edward Heath.
What were his greatest strengths and weaknesses as a PM? Why was he deceitful?0 -
Not as risable as the reply from Amnesty International.kle4 said:
I fear your colourful analogy falls down somewhat - a fart that is all noise and no smell is preferable to the alternative, whatever else it may be. Kind of Cameron's deal I suppose, not really that effective in some ways, but not that objectionable either.Monksfield said:Risible 'toughness' from the Government on immigrant workers. All hot air as ever - just who is going to be undertaking these checks given the scale of cuts to the agencies who might do it? But it's not real is it? it's just more mummery for the Daily Mail. I bet even Cameron's farts are all noise and no smell.
Steve Symonds of Amnesty International UK denounced his comments, saying the Government had a duty to protect people fleeing conflicts and brutal regimes.
Indeed it does, those are asylum seekers, they are not illegal immigrants. They can present themselves at any British Embassy or Consulate in the world and claim asylum, and will usually arrive in the UK via Heathrow. People who force their way into the country via the tunnel or whatever are acting unlawfully and are therefore both illegal immigrants and criminals. Amnesty International do themselves no credit by conflating one with the other.0 -
...and your point is correct (or rather, I agree with it - which isn't necessarily the same thing).Indigo said:
A poll of public preferences isn't representative of the Labour membership, a couple of hundred Tories having a laugh, or a hundred thousand UNITE/UNISON entryists! My point was that Burnham cheerleaders shouldn't put too much value in that poll.GeoffM said:
Some of us random members of the public who can spare the price of a pint are!Indigo said:
The public are not electing the labour leader.HYUFD said:
Every poll of the public so farIndigo said:
With what pool of voters ?HYUFD said:
Burnham polls well ahead of CooperCromwell said:I agree with this except I don't expect Burnham to be even in second place in the first ballot as he is a very poor campaigner and dreadfully uninspiring candidate ; the voters don't like him as in the last Labour election he almost came last , just ahead of Abbot ...I expect Burnham to come a poor third , just in front of Kendall
I think Corbyns best chance is to win outright in the first ballot like Tony Blair did , but I doubt he will do that ....Corbynmania has already peaked and reached its high water mark ; it has spooked the Labour voters and will unify them behind the eventual winner , who I believe will be Yvette Cooper
The influx of new voters is worrysome as most of these must be Corbynites , but I suspect there will be just enough sensible sober minded voters to see off the threat of Corbynism ; I just don't think the LP are willing to throw in the towel and become an unelectable fringe /protest party just yet
I was merely teasing at this early hour.0 -
Who famously asked 'who governs Britain?'MikeSmithson said:
the great Edward Heath.SquareRoot said:Why is it that Labour have such a habit of electing no hopers as leader?
Not you mate, came the reply...0 -
IndeedGeoffM said:
...and your point is correct (or rather, I agree with it - which isn't necessarily the same thing).Indigo said:
A poll of public preferences isn't representative of the Labour membership, a couple of hundred Tories having a laugh, or a hundred thousand UNITE/UNISON entryists! My point was that Burnham cheerleaders shouldn't put too much value in that poll.GeoffM said:
Some of us random members of the public who can spare the price of a pint are!Indigo said:
The public are not electing the labour leader.HYUFD said:
Every poll of the public so farIndigo said:
With what pool of voters ?HYUFD said:
Burnham polls well ahead of CooperCromwell said:I agree with this except I don't expect Burnham to be even in second place in the first ballot as he is a very poor campaigner and dreadfully uninspiring candidate ; the voters don't like him as in the last Labour election he almost came last , just ahead of Abbot ...I expect Burnham to come a poor third , just in front of Kendall
I think Corbyns best chance is to win outright in the first ballot like Tony Blair did , but I doubt he will do that ....Corbynmania has already peaked and reached its high water mark ; it has spooked the Labour voters and will unify them behind the eventual winner , who I believe will be Yvette Cooper
The influx of new voters is worrysome as most of these must be Corbynites , but I suspect there will be just enough sensible sober minded voters to see off the threat of Corbynism ; I just don't think the LP are willing to throw in the towel and become an unelectable fringe /protest party just yet
I was merely teasing at this early hour.
For me the key question is if we assume the Labour Party returns to its senses between now at the leadership election, and the sensible wing of the party turn out to stop Corbyn, who do they vote for (assuming they are voting primarily to stop Corbyn), and which way if any would the Corbyn vote break if he is dropped in the second round.0 -
More on Corbyn's support for Clause IV (or not, as the case may be:
“Like a majority of the population and a majority of even Tory voters, I want the railways back in public ownership. But public control should mean just that, not simply state control: so we should have passengers, rail workers and government too, co-operatively running the railways to ensure they are run in our interests and not for private profit.”
Except:
1) That was the original idea of Network Rail. It was a total catastrophe because it became an unwieldy management structure paralysed by constant splits and infighting (a bit like the Labour party only worse)
2) Government doesn't know how to make the railways work - indeed, usually at the moment where they are publicly owned, governments meddle with them in the hope of appeasing voters, without thinking of the negative consequences of their actions - this is also true of passengers. One of the comparatively small number of politicians whose influence was the opposite was Mussolini. He ordered the railway companies to come up with realistic timetables so he could boast that under him the trains ran on time. But given he was also a Fascist, a dictator, a devotee of Hitler, a murderer and ultimately shot and suspended naked upside down from a lamp post, I wouldn't advise Corbyn to follow his model.
3) There are problems with the structure of the railways. There are issues surrounding the subsidy. But Corbyn isn't engaging with those. He's talking about abstract, utopian theories that don't actually work. Could be a metaphor for his whole campaign.
4) And of course, one minor thought - when the railways were publicly owned, inevitably they were run in the interests of the workers, rather than the passengers - because the workers had clout, via the unions, and the passengers had none (as passenger numbers were not really relevant). Does anyone really think a man whose campaign is founded on union backing would behave differently if by some appalling chance he got into power?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-rivals-turn-on-jeremy-corbyn-in-row-over-clause-iv-10447690.html0 -
That's a rather harsh description of the French 'regime'Indigo said:
Not as risable as the reply from Amnesty International.kle4 said:
I fear your colourful analogy falls down somewhat - a fart that is all noise and no smell is preferable to the alternative, whatever else it may be. Kind of Cameron's deal I suppose, not really that effective in some ways, but not that objectionable either.Monksfield said:Risible 'toughness' from the Government on immigrant workers. All hot air as ever - just who is going to be undertaking these checks given the scale of cuts to the agencies who might do it? But it's not real is it? it's just more mummery for the Daily Mail. I bet even Cameron's farts are all noise and no smell.
Steve Symonds of Amnesty International UK denounced his comments, saying the Government had a duty to protect people fleeing conflicts and brutal regimes.
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Yay a thread on AV.
Thank you Mark and Mike.0 -
Can't be. He won an election, and to all intents and purposes won another...Richard_Tyndall said:
He suffered from that patrician arrogance that has been the hallmark of so many post war Tory leaders - believing that they knew better than the electorate and that they were therefore entitled to lie to the public in order to achieve their aims.JosiasJessop said:
Heath was almost nearly before my time - I was one when he stopped being PM. Before I got interested in politics, all I knew about him was his hatred and seemingly constant undermining of Thatcher.Financier said:
Edward Heath had the same characteristic of T Blair - that of deceit.MikeSmithson said:
When was the last time a Tory leader, apart from Thatcher, won a sustainable working majority?SquareRoot said:Why is it that Labour have such a habit of electing no hopers as leader?
The answer is the leader the blues don't talk about - the great Edward Heath.
What were his greatest strengths and weaknesses as a PM? Why was he deceitful?
Heath was far and away the worst PM in post war British history. He even beats Brown to that particular title.
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Square Root
"Its not a question of fairness.. Blair was a snake oil saleman and yes he won three elections but did immense damage to our country."
Whether or not he was a snake oil salesman I would say Blair did more to change this country for the better than any leader since Atlee.
He not only cleansed it of the outdated social policies of Thatcher (racism homophobia etc) but turned Britain into a modern liberal democracy where class racial and sexual prejudices became (largely) a thing of the past.
He also fixed the longest lingering sore this country faced-Northern Ireland-as only someone with his open mindedness could have done.
Iraq-his only black spot would have happened in exactly the same way had we had a Tory government. But nonetheless it was a mistake so all round 8/10.0 -
Sounds a bit like Jeremy Corbyn - although Corbyn of course probably believes what he's saying.Richard_Tyndall said:
He suffered from that patrician arrogance that has been the hallmark of so many post war Tory leaders - believing that they knew better than the electorate and that they were therefore entitled to lie to the public in order to achieve their aims.0 -
Catching up with Phil Hammond's comments.
Nasty and intemperate.
He joins Priti Patel on the list of leadership contenders I won't be voting for.0 -
ICYMI last night.
The Times are reporting Tory MPs are going to revolt over cuts to tax credits that are paid to soap dodging parasites on welfare who breed like rabbits the poor
Two MPs have gone public more set to follow.0 -
Mr. Eagles, you should reconsider Patel. I say this entirely for moral reasons, the moral being I like it when 50/1 shots come in.0
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Eagle
Is this the Philip Hammond story? Another Thatcher throwback.....After the Lib Dems departed it was only going to be a matter of time before they crawled out of the woodwork
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/aug/09/african-migrants-threaten-eu-standard-living-philip-hammond0 -
Not every voter will have a second preference. I believe the stats for Labour votes historically is that about 20% "drop out" at every round. So, 44% should be fine.DaemonBarber said:So Corbyn either wins outright in round one, or loses. Can't see many second/third preferences going to Corbyn from the others, and has been said down thread, if he is still in the race, his second/third preferences won't count anyway.
I can see him being stuck just below the 50% point and being pipped by Cooper/Burnham in the third round.0 -
She's pro death penalty and that's a deal breaker for me.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, you should reconsider Patel. I say this entirely for moral reasons, the moral being I like it when 50/1 shots come in.
That said, the Tories electing an ethnic minority female might be worth it just for the angst it might cause on the left.
But no, being in favour of the death penalty is an insurmountable problem for me.0 -
Yes, but what will Labour do?TheScreamingEagles said:ICYMI last night.
The Times are reporting Tory MPs are going to revolt over cuts to tax credits that are paid to soap dodging parasites on welfare who breed like rabbits the poor
Two MPs have gone public more set to follow.0 -
Mr. Eagles, but would she actually try to bring it back?
I agree that the angst would be amusing.0 -
I saw her on QT trying to defend the death penalty, she pretty much said that wrong convictions weren't possible. Rubbish answer.TheScreamingEagles said:
She's pro death penalty and that's a deal breaker for me.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, you should reconsider Patel. I say this entirely for moral reasons, the moral being I like it when 50/1 shots come in.
That said, the Tories electing an ethnic minority female might be worth it just for the angst it might cause on the left.
But no, being in favour of the death penalty is an insurmountable problem for me.0 -
That's the one.Roger said:Eagle
Is this the Philip Hammond story? Another Thatcher throwback.....After the Lib Dems departed it was only going to be a matter of time before they crawled out of the woodwork
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/aug/09/african-migrants-threaten-eu-standard-living-philip-hammond
It is so disappointing as I liked him. But he's talking the language of the Daily Mail comments section.
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OT
Doubt this will affect many PBers (except those with hidden tastes) but some of our town centres could get a bit more peaceful.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33713015/uk-nightclubs-closing-at-alarming-rate-industry-figures-suggest0 -
She was on Sky bleating about Hammond's use of the 'marauding' - I'm amazed at the tin-ears within Labour here.Morris_Dancer said:
Mr. Crosby, she's got the Rick Wakeman vote sewn up, then.
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rcs1000 said:
Not every voter will have a second preference. I believe the stats for Labour votes historically is that about 20% "drop out" at every round. So, 44% should be fine.DaemonBarber said:So Corbyn either wins outright in round one, or loses. Can't see many second/third preferences going to Corbyn from the others, and has been said down thread, if he is still in the race, his second/third preferences won't count anyway.
I can see him being stuck just below the 50% point and being pipped by Cooper/Burnham in the third round.
Historically, there hasn't been the risk of electing someone like Corbyn.
Maybe there will be more 2nd prefs this time - particularly from Kendall supporters who know their vote will be wasted otherwise?
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Excellent thread lead Mike and Nojam.
The peculiarities of Labour's voting system will be exposed most by a polarising figure such as Corbyn (much more so than the Ed Miliband or Harman elections). Corbyn is likely to win quite comfortably on the 1st voting preference, but unless he exceeds or is as close as exceeding 50% on the first round, he's not going to win.
It is quite simple, Corbyn just isn't going to pick up any second preferences from any of the others.
Now that I have got my head around the voting system- it naturally has checks and balances to stop a decisive figure becoming leader0 -
A senior Blairite ex-minister was quoted (anonymously) in Times yesterday saying he was convinced Corbyn will win now.rcs1000 said:
Not every voter will have a second preference. I believe the stats for Labour votes historically is that about 20% "drop out" at every round. So, 44% should be fine.DaemonBarber said:So Corbyn either wins outright in round one, or loses. Can't see many second/third preferences going to Corbyn from the others, and has been said down thread, if he is still in the race, his second/third preferences won't count anyway.
I can see him being stuck just below the 50% point and being pipped by Cooper/Burnham in the third round.0 -
As I see it, he is just telling the truth. Europe cannot become a dumping ground for those from Africa, the Middle East and the Indian sub-continent. Those areas have to solve their own problems and throwing money their way is not a solution.TheScreamingEagles said:
That's the one.Roger said:Eagle
Is this the Philip Hammond story? Another Thatcher throwback.....After the Lib Dems departed it was only going to be a matter of time before they crawled out of the woodwork
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/aug/09/african-migrants-threaten-eu-standard-living-philip-hammond
It is so disappointing as I liked him. But he's talking the language of the Daily Mail commentator0 -
There must be a chance that if one of Cooper or Burnham were to pull out, the other would win in the final round against Corbyn, but with both standing Corbyn wins due to the problem of votes being transferred more times.0
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Jezziah - love it
And I quite agree. Tom Watson has been besties with Unities too hasn't he re Falkirk? I can imagine him greasing up to anyone.ydoethur said:When Dennis Healey hung on to the deputy leadership ahead of Tony Benn by, as he put it, 'the hair of his eyebrow' thanks to Labour's electoral system and a crucial abstention by Kinnock's faction, it didn't unite the party. It split it further because the left went with the We Wuz Robbed meme for the next four years (regardless of the fact that they held the leadership and virtually the entire shadow cabinet).
This time around, bearing in mind they have no candidate to be deputy leader, and will hold very few (no?) Shadow Cabinet positions, matters will be worse if the third placed candidate comes through to beat the Jezziah in the last round. They will go absolutely ballistic. Indeed, if it's very close it wouldn't surprise me if they launched a legal challenge.
The only way Labour can be saved from prolonged chaos and infighting at this point would appear to be for Cooper or Burnham to emerge the clear winner on first preferences, which would hammer into the head of even so dense a gentleman as Len McCluskey that the good ol' days have gone. Since it is more likely that Alex Salmond will come out as a closet Unionist than that one of those two will manage such a thing, anyone who has bets on Labour continuing to go backwards in 2020 is probably on a good thing.0 -
Probably too late now, surely the ballot papers are printed and being held in Len McCluskey's garage as we speak.AndyJS said:There must be a chance that if one of Cooper or Burnham were to pull out, the other would win in the final round against Corbyn, but with both standing Corbyn wins due to the problem of votes being transferred more times.
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Quite. Are tax credits not being cut back to the levels they were at during the year of poverty and penury that was 2007-2008, before the massive rise in personal tax allowances under the last government?rottenborough said:
Yes, but what will Labour do?TheScreamingEagles said:ICYMI last night.
The Times are reporting Tory MPs are going to revolt over cuts to tax credits that are paid to soap dodging parasites on welfare who breed like rabbits the poor
Two MPs have gone public more set to follow.
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/2709/production/_84139990_tax_credit_spend_gra624_v2.png
Taxing people on one hand only to give some some of it back via an inefficient and error-prone bureaucracy on the other is close to being the definition of madness.
With more than a billion a week still being borrowed, anyone opposing this needs to find another way of raising the money from increased taxes or other spending reductions.
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I guess it's the same effect as so many pubs closing down.Financier said:OT
Doubt this will affect many PBers (except those with hidden tastes) but some of our town centres could get a bit more peaceful.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33713015/uk-nightclubs-closing-at-alarming-rate-industry-figures-suggest
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Back in the 1980s the Hard Left actually peaked in 1980. Healey's narrow defeat of Benn in 1981 at the party conference coincided with a shift to the Centre and Soft Left which continued throughout the 80s as the moderates regained control of the party machine. Benn did not serve in the Shadow Cabinet at this time and I cannot recall any members who supported him.ydoethur said:When Dennis Healey hung on to the deputy leadership ahead of Tony Benn by, as he put it, 'the hair of his eyebrow' thanks to Labour's electoral system and a crucial abstention by Kinnock's faction, it didn't unite the party. It split it further because the left went with the We Wuz Robbed meme for the next four years (regardless of the fact that they held the leadership and virtually the entire shadow cabinet).
This time around, bearing in mind they have no candidate to be deputy leader, and will hold very few (no?) Shadow Cabinet positions, matters will be worse if the third placed candidate comes through to beat the Jezziah in the last round. They will go absolutely ballistic. Indeed, if it's very close it wouldn't surprise me if they launched a legal challenge.
The only way Labour can be saved from prolonged chaos and infighting at this point would appear to be for Cooper or Burnham to emerge the clear winner on first preferences, which would hammer into the head of even so dense a gentleman as Len McCluskey that the good ol' days have gone. Since it is more likely that Alex Salmond will come out as a closet Unionist than that one of those two will manage such a thing, anyone who has bets on Labour continuing to go backwards in 2020 is probably on a good thing.
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This is the last nightclub I noted that shut - turned into a TescoHertsmere_Pubgoer said:
I guess it's the same effect as so many pubs closing down.Financier said:OT
Doubt this will affect many PBers (except those with hidden tastes) but some of our town centres could get a bit more peaceful.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33713015/uk-nightclubs-closing-at-alarming-rate-industry-figures-suggest
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafters_(nightclub)0 -
And a pizza express too.Pulpstar said:
This is the last nightclub I noted that shut - turned into a TescoHertsmere_Pubgoer said:
I guess it's the same effect as so many pubs closing down.Financier said:OT
Doubt this will affect many PBers (except those with hidden tastes) but some of our town centres could get a bit more peaceful.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33713015/uk-nightclubs-closing-at-alarming-rate-industry-figures-suggest
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafters_(nightclub)
I used to spend far too much time in Rockworld.0 -
Personal Allowance for 2007/8 was £5,225. For 2015/16 it is £10,600.Sandpit said:
Quite. Are tax credits not being cut back to the levels they were at during the year of poverty and penury that was 2007-2008, before the massive rise in personal tax allowances under the last government?rottenborough said:
Yes, but what will Labour do?TheScreamingEagles said:ICYMI last night.
The Times are reporting Tory MPs are going to revolt over cuts to tax credits that are paid to soap dodging parasites on welfare who breed like rabbits the poor
Two MPs have gone public more set to follow.
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/2709/production/_84139990_tax_credit_spend_gra624_v2.png
Taxing people on one hand only to give some some of it back via an inefficient and error-prone bureaucracy on the other is close to being the definition of madness.
With more than a billion a week still being borrowed, anyone opposing this needs to find another way of raising the money from increased taxes or other spending reductions.0 -
"Why wouldn't other mainstream Labour voters who've gone for Cooper or Burnham first then at least consider the bearded one?"
@David Herdson
David- just like your Saturday thread about the class of 2020, you have a logical mind, but clearly very little understanding of the mindset of a Labour party member. Easy to do because likewise I couldn't get into the head of a Tory member- the Tory mind must be full of some rather unpleasant prejudices that fortunately I cannot relate to.
Corbyn is a divisive figure for the Labour party. He will definitely get into the final round as a clear leader, but Cooper's or Burnham's second preferences are going to go overwhelmingly for the other. Corbin's going to need in excess of 45% going into the final round to stand any realistic chance of winning.
0 -
But that was courtesy of the Ulster Unionists who then took the Tory whip. Without them Heath's majority in 1970 would only have been 15 - less than Major's 1992 win.MikeSmithson said:
When was the last time a Tory leader, apart from Thatcher, won a sustainable working majority?SquareRoot said:Why is it that Labour have such a habit of electing no hopers as leader?
The answer is the leader the blues don't talk about - the great Edward Heath.0 -
Sadly Tories like to wring their hands about unfortunate language as a substitute for doing something about the problem just as much as Labour doesFinancier said:
As I see it, he is just telling the truth. Europe cannot become a dumping ground for those from Africa, the Middle East and the Indian sub-continent. Those areas have to solve their own problems and throwing money their way is not a solution.TheScreamingEagles said:
That's the one.Roger said:Eagle
Is this the Philip Hammond story? Another Thatcher throwback.....After the Lib Dems departed it was only going to be a matter of time before they crawled out of the woodwork
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/aug/09/african-migrants-threaten-eu-standard-living-philip-hammond
It is so disappointing as I liked him. But he's talking the language of the Daily Mail commentator
Nasty, maybe, Intemperate, possibly, but is it true ? And if it's true, what are we actually going to do about it that a) works and b) has a passing chance of being acceptable to the voters.
Letting loads of illegal immigrants in past people waiting patiently in the proper channels, or throwing enough money at poor parts of the world to make a difference will pass neither a) nor b)0 -
Does Eric Heffer not count? Also Benn was a member of the Shadow Cabinet in 1981, albeit fairly briefly. Booth was a member until he lost his seat.justin124 said:Healey's narrow defeat of Benn in 1981 at the party conference coincided with a shift to the Centre and Soft Left which continued throughout the 80s as the moderates regained control of the party machine. Benn did not serve in the Shadow Cabinet at this time and I cannot recall any members who supported him.
0 -
Pubs can, to some extent, rebrand and do things differently. A lot of the older school boozers around me are finding some other way to sell themselves, typically with the food menu.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
I guess it's the same effect as so many pubs closing down.Financier said:OT
Doubt this will affect many PBers (except those with hidden tastes) but some of our town centres could get a bit more peaceful.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33713015/uk-nightclubs-closing-at-alarming-rate-industry-figures-suggest
Clubs can't, really. Plus they really smell nowadays.
0 -
Indeed. That was also of course one point of weakness for his government - that they needed votes from Northern Ireland at just the moment it was going to hell in a handcart.justin124 said:
But that was courtesy of the Ulster Unionists who then took the Tory whip. Without them Heath's majority in 1970 would only have been 15 - less than Major's 1992 win.MikeSmithson said:
When was the last time a Tory leader, apart from Thatcher, won a sustainable working majority?SquareRoot said:Why is it that Labour have such a habit of electing no hopers as leader?
The answer is the leader the blues don't talk about - the great Edward Heath.
Could happen again. The Democratic Unionists have offered to support Cameron - but it's difficult to imagine they wouldn't ask for a few things in exchange that would cause serious problems there.0 -
So a taxpayer who pays the marginal 20% rate is already more than a grand a year better off just on the tax allowance increase. The minimum wage has also risen in real terms over the same period. I remain to be convinced that the tax credit changes are any more than the undoing of the unaffordable largesse of Gordon Brown before and during the recession, now that the economy is doing well. The other big change with Universal Credit is the elimination of the 16 hours a week rules which limited working hours for benefits recipients.Financier said:
Personal Allowance for 2007/8 was £5,225. For 2015/16 it is £10,600.Sandpit said:
Quite. Are tax credits not being cut back to the levels they were at during the year of poverty and penury that was 2007-2008, before the massive rise in personal tax allowances under the last government?rottenborough said:
Yes, but what will Labour do?TheScreamingEagles said:ICYMI last night.
The Times are reporting Tory MPs are going to revolt over cuts to tax credits that are paid to soap dodging parasites on welfare who breed like rabbits the poor
Two MPs have gone public more set to follow.
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/2709/production/_84139990_tax_credit_spend_gra624_v2.png
Taxing people on one hand only to give some some of it back via an inefficient and error-prone bureaucracy on the other is close to being the definition of madness.
With more than a billion a week still being borrowed, anyone opposing this needs to find another way of raising the money from increased taxes or other spending reductions.
Can anyone explain who is significantly worse off, apart from the parents of as yet unborn 3rd children?0 -
Is it silly season in Gib/Spain too? I've just seen reports of incursions in your waters.GeoffM said:
Some of us random members of the public who can spare the price of a pint are!Indigo said:
The public are not electing the labour leader.HYUFD said:
Every poll of the public so farIndigo said:
With what pool of voters ?HYUFD said:
Burnham polls well ahead of CooperCromwell said:I agree with this except I don't expect Burnham to be even in second place in the first ballot as he is a very poor campaigner and dreadfully uninspiring candidate ; the voters don't like him as in the last Labour election he almost came last , just ahead of Abbot ...I expect Burnham to come a poor third , just in front of Kendall
I think Corbyns best chance is to win outright in the first ballot like Tony Blair did , but I doubt he will do that ....Corbynmania has already peaked and reached its high water mark ; it has spooked the Labour voters and will unify them behind the eventual winner , who I believe will be Yvette Cooper
The influx of new voters is worrysome as most of these must be Corbynites , but I suspect there will be just enough sensible sober minded voters to see off the threat of Corbynism ; I just don't think the LP are willing to throw in the towel and become an unelectable fringe /protest party just yet0 -
I had forgotten Eric Heffer - but would not really count Albert Booth as Hard Left.0
-
I doubt you are much of a night time reveller Financier. The clubs have simply been replaced by cocktail bars and pubs: cheaper drinks + no entrance admission=more vomit on the pavementFinancier said:OT
Doubt this will affect many PBers (except those with hidden tastes) but some of our town centres could get a bit more peaceful.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33713015/uk-nightclubs-closing-at-alarming-rate-industry-figures-suggest
0 -
Those who are just below that tax threshold, but earning just above the minimum wage or having to work reduced hours, with 2-3 children. That's actually quite a significant constituency and includes some members of my own family. It wasn't a great budget for them.Sandpit said:
So a taxpayer who pays the marginal 20% rate is already more than a grand a year better off just on the tax allowance increase. The minimum wage has also risen in real terms over the same period. I remain to be convinced that the tax credit changes are any more than the undoing of the unaffordable largesse of Gordon Brown before and during the recession, now that the economy is doing well. The other big change with Universal Credit is the elimination of the 16 hours a week rules which limited working hours for benefits recipients.
Can anyone explain who is significantly worse off, apart from the parents of as yet unborn 3rd children?
However, since they hated the tax credit system with a passion having been overpaid (and then received threatening letters) or underpaid (and then having to go through the time-consuming and expensive ritual of appealing) for five consecutive years, I imagine they will somehow live with their loss.
The tax credit system is an absolute joke, or it would be if it were funny. It was by far the worst and most costly mistake Labour ever made, not forgetting the Iraq War - and what was even more bizarre is that they are still very proud of it because they believe that expensively cocking up every year and then being smug about it was in some way helping the poorest!0 -
If votes split A - 100 B - 50 C - 45 and D – 15 (A has 47% of 1st preferences)
Ds votes get split 5 to B , 5 to C and 5 no second choice.
New split is A – 100 B – 55, and C 50. At least 46 out of Cs second choices and Ds 3rd choices would have to have voted to support B to stop A.
Corbyn is going to win
0 -
There's also a change in culture around pubs and clubs, bought in by the licensing changes and smoking ban.BannedInParis said:
Pubs can, to some extent, rebrand and do things differently. A lot of the older school boozers around me are finding some other way to sell themselves, typically with the food menu.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
I guess it's the same effect as so many pubs closing down.Financier said:OT
Doubt this will affect many PBers (except those with hidden tastes) but some of our town centres could get a bit more peaceful.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33713015/uk-nightclubs-closing-at-alarming-rate-industry-figures-suggest
Clubs can't, really. Plus they really smell nowadays.
It used to be that your average small town had all the pubs close at 11, so the youth of the whole place would grudgingly pay a fiver admission a dingy club as it was the only place in town you could get a drink after midnight. Nowadays the bars have smartened up, often have DJs playing themselves at the weekend, are open until 1am or 2am and without a convoluted passout system to go outside for a ciggy.
Big name DJs now routinely play arena sized venues, live music and festivals have never been bigger - Glastonbury sold out in half an hour more than 100k tickets this year, before they had announced a single band that was playing!0 -
It's no surprise that your Chianti set of moneyed lay-abouts didn't see Corbyn coming.tyson said:
"Why wouldn't other mainstream Labour voters who've gone for Cooper or Burnham first then at least consider the bearded one?"
@David Herdson
David- just like your Saturday thread about the class of 2020, you have a logical mind, but clearly very little understanding of the mindset of a Labour party member. Easy to do because likewise I couldn't get into the head of a Tory member- the Tory mind must be full of some rather unpleasant prejudices that fortunately I cannot relate to.
Corbyn is a divisive figure for the Labour party. He will definitely get into the final round as a clear leader, but Cooper's or Burnham's second preferences are going to go overwhelmingly for the other. Corbin's going to need in excess of 45% going into the final round to stand any realistic chance of winning.
It does surprise me that you claim some special insight into the Labour soul from Sybaris.0 -
Without the UUs, Churchill would not have mustered a majority at all in 1951...justin124 said:
But that was courtesy of the Ulster Unionists who then took the Tory whip. Without them Heath's majority in 1970 would only have been 15 - less than Major's 1992 win.MikeSmithson said:
When was the last time a Tory leader, apart from Thatcher, won a sustainable working majority?SquareRoot said:Why is it that Labour have such a habit of electing no hopers as leader?
The answer is the leader the blues don't talk about - the great Edward Heath.0 -
I'll take your word for it. I don't know a lot about him, frankly, but the fact that he was willing to put his personal principles on UND ahead of holding his seat seemed fairly typical Labour Left behaviour.justin124 said:I had forgotten Eric Heffer - but would not really count Albert Booth as Hard Left.
The Labour Shadow Cabinet in 1981 was as follows, if you want to pick off hard left/soft left/right:
Michael Foot
Dennis Healey
Albert Booth
Roy Hattersley
Eric Heffer
Gerald Kaufmann
Neil Kinnock
Roy Mason
Stanley Orme
Maurice Rees
Peter Shore
John Silkin
John Smith
Eric Varley
Will Rodgers (replaced by Tony Benn).0 -
Diesel back to almost a pound a litre too. George Osborne is f*cking amazing at the momentSandpit said:
So a taxpayer who pays the marginal 20% rate is already more than a grand a year better off just on the tax allowance increase. The minimum wage has also risen in real terms over the same period. I remain to be convinced that the tax credit changes are any more than the undoing of the unaffordable largesse of Gordon Brown before and during the recession, now that the economy is doing well. The other big change with Universal Credit is the elimination of the 16 hours a week rules which limited working hours for benefits recipients.Financier said:
Personal Allowance for 2007/8 was £5,225. For 2015/16 it is £10,600.Sandpit said:
Quite. Are tax credits not being cut back to the levels they were at during the year of poverty and penury that was 2007-2008, before the massive rise in personal tax allowances under the last government?rottenborough said:
Yes, but what will Labour do?TheScreamingEagles said:ICYMI last night.
The Times are reporting Tory MPs are going to revolt over cuts to tax credits that are paid to soap dodging parasites on welfare who breed like rabbits the poor
Two MPs have gone public more set to follow.
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/2709/production/_84139990_tax_credit_spend_gra624_v2.png
Taxing people on one hand only to give some some of it back via an inefficient and error-prone bureaucracy on the other is close to being the definition of madness.
With more than a billion a week still being borrowed, anyone opposing this needs to find another way of raising the money from increased taxes or other spending reductions.
Can anyone explain who is significantly worse off, apart from the parents of as yet unborn 3rd children? 0 -
And of course with the support of the Ulster Unionists, Major held on until May 1997, which he would have been unable to do with just the mainland Conservatives.RodCrosby said:
Without the UUs, Churchill would not have mustered a majority at all in 1951...justin124 said:
But that was courtesy of the Ulster Unionists who then took the Tory whip. Without them Heath's majority in 1970 would only have been 15 - less than Major's 1992 win.MikeSmithson said:
When was the last time a Tory leader, apart from Thatcher, won a sustainable working majority?SquareRoot said:Why is it that Labour have such a habit of electing no hopers as leader?
The answer is the leader the blues don't talk about - the great Edward Heath.0 -
Po Faced Tyson upset that the lower orders would prefer to get drunk, rather than chat about tediously dull high brow films over chai lattes.tyson said:
I doubt you are much of a night time reveller Financier. The clubs have simply been replaced by cocktail bars and pubs: cheaper drinks + no entrance admission=more vomit on the pavementFinancier said:OT
Doubt this will affect many PBers (except those with hidden tastes) but some of our town centres could get a bit more peaceful.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33713015/uk-nightclubs-closing-at-alarming-rate-industry-figures-suggest0 -
Lloyd George's majority was courtesy of Coalition Conservatives. The last Liberal to win a working majority was Henry Campbell-Bannerman in 1906 (Asquith's majorities in 1910 came from Irish support).Indigo said:
He does have the advantage of being rather more recent than David Lloyd GeorgeMikeSmithson said:
When was the last time a Tory leader, apart from Thatcher, won a sustainable working majority?SquareRoot said:Why is it that Labour have such a habit of electing no hopers as leader?
The answer is the leader the blues don't talk about - the great Edward Heath.0 -
You assess correctly, though when we get some warm summer evenings (none here so far this year), I enjoy visiting a country pub for a pleasant meal and a drink or two. For me cocktail bars a rip-off to exploit the very young and foolish with money.tyson said:
I doubt you are much of a night time reveller Financier. The clubs have simply been replaced by cocktail bars and pubs: cheaper drinks + no entrance admission=more vomit on the pavementFinancier said:OT
Doubt this will affect many PBers (except those with hidden tastes) but some of our town centres could get a bit more peaceful.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33713015/uk-nightclubs-closing-at-alarming-rate-industry-figures-suggest
However, locally most pubs are complaining of a large drop in trade, from tourists and students and local youth.
When in London I use my club that has a beautiful garden c/w very large tent..0 -
Indeed so - it would have been a minority Government.RodCrosby said:
Without the UUs, Churchill would not have mustered a majority at all in 1951...justin124 said:
But that was courtesy of the Ulster Unionists who then took the Tory whip. Without them Heath's majority in 1970 would only have been 15 - less than Major's 1992 win.MikeSmithson said:
When was the last time a Tory leader, apart from Thatcher, won a sustainable working majority?SquareRoot said:Why is it that Labour have such a habit of electing no hopers as leader?
The answer is the leader the blues don't talk about - the great Edward Heath.0 -
Heffer and Benn were the Hard Left.ydoethur said:
I'll take your word for it. I don't know a lot about him, frankly, but the fact that he was willing to put his personal principles on UND ahead of holding his seat seemed fairly typical Labour Left behaviour.justin124 said:I had forgotten Eric Heffer - but would not really count Albert Booth as Hard Left.
The Labour Shadow Cabinet in 1981 was as follows, if you want to pick off hard left/soft left/right:
Michael Foot
Dennis Healey
Albert Booth
Roy Hattersley
Eric Heffer
Gerald Kaufmann
Neil Kinnock
Roy Mason
Stanley Orme
Maurice Rees
Peter Shore
John Silkin
John Smith
Eric Varley
Will Rodgers (replaced by Tony Benn).
I imagine you mean Merlyn Rees?! - not Maurice.0 -
That's useful, thanksydoethur said:
Those who are just below that tax threshold, but earning just above the minimum wage or having to work reduced hours, with 2-3 children. That's actually quite a significant constituency and includes some members of my own family. It wasn't a great budget for them.Sandpit said:
So a taxpayer who pays the marginal 20% rate is already more than a grand a year better off just on the tax allowance increase. The minimum wage has also risen in real terms over the same period. I remain to be convinced that the tax credit changes are any more than the undoing of the unaffordable largesse of Gordon Brown before and during the recession, now that the economy is doing well. The other big change with Universal Credit is the elimination of the 16 hours a week rules which limited working hours for benefits recipients.
Can anyone explain who is significantly worse off, apart from the parents of as yet unborn 3rd children?
However, since they hated the tax credit system with a passion having been overpaid (and then received threatening letters) or underpaid (and then having to go through the time-consuming and expensive ritual of appealing) for five consecutive years, I imagine they will somehow live with their loss.
The tax credit system is an absolute joke, or it would be if it were funny. It was by far the worst and most costly mistake Labour ever made, not forgetting the Iraq War - and what was even more bizarre is that they are still very proud of it because they believe that expensively cocking up every year and then being smug about it was in some way helping the poorest!
Not affected myself as don't have children, but had heard similar anecdotal evidence about overpayment nightmares and inflexibility with working hours - the whole setup doesn't seem to be able to deal with casual labour or self-employment in particular.
Hopefully the Universal Credit system will improve that big mess, and most of those that lose out are able to make up a few more hours at work to compensate.
Fair play to IDS, after his less-than-brilliant outing as Conservative leader, he has quite literally made this project his life's work.0 -
It's certainly the case that second prefs could be what stops Corbyn. If so it will be a close-run thing given that the electorate for this contest is not Labour Party members, but to a large extent a self-selecting group many of whom are caught up in Corbynmania and who are being actively recruited by the unions.
Like many others, I remain mystified by the short odds on Andy Burnham; in my reckoning his chances are at best level with Yvette's. He positioned himself originally as the more left-wing candidate of the two, but that strategy didn't allow for an upstart firebrand much further to the left. He will have shed some of his target supporters to Corbyn. Conversely Yvette looks well set to pick up the bulk of what remains of the sane vote.0 -
He is fracking amazing too.Pulpstar said:
Diesel back to almost a pound a litre too. George Osborne is f*cking amazing at the momentSandpit said:
So a taxpayer who pays the marginal 20% rate is already more than a grand a year better off just on the tax allowance increase. The minimum wage has also risen in real terms over the same period. I remain to be convinced that the tax credit changes are any more than the undoing of the unaffordable largesse of Gordon Brown before and during the recession, now that the economy is doing well. The other big change with Universal Credit is the elimination of the 16 hours a week rules which limited working hours for benefits recipients.Financier said:
Personal Allowance for 2007/8 was £5,225. For 2015/16 it is £10,600.Sandpit said:
Quite. Are tax credits not being cut back to the levels they were at during the year of poverty and penury that was 2007-2008, before the massive rise in personal tax allowances under the last government?rottenborough said:
Yes, but what will Labour do?TheScreamingEagles said:ICYMI last night.
The Times are reporting Tory MPs are going to revolt over cuts to tax credits that are paid to soap dodging parasites on welfare who breed like rabbits the poor
Two MPs have gone public more set to follow.
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/2709/production/_84139990_tax_credit_spend_gra624_v2.png
Taxing people on one hand only to give some some of it back via an inefficient and error-prone bureaucracy on the other is close to being the definition of madness.
With more than a billion a week still being borrowed, anyone opposing this needs to find another way of raising the money from increased taxes or other spending reductions.
Can anyone explain who is significantly worse off, apart from the parents of as yet unborn 3rd children?
Brent crude is down to $48 again - it was £115 in June 2014 - yet another slump as the world is awash with surplus diesel.0 -
If it wasn't for Edward Heath we'd have no migrant crisis in Calais, little threat from ISIS, no Rotherham child abuse scandal... And no ukip!
0 -
Lots of people seem very confident that Corbyn will be receiving minimal second preference votes. However YouGov's polling showed both Burnham and Cooper supporters were only splitting 2:1 in favour of the other over Corbyn as a second pref.
So, if he gets 45% of 1st pref, I think he's a certainty. I expect 42% would make it about a 50/50 shot.0 -
And no Mike Yarwood impersonations...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=219ZR0JIRWUisam said:If it wasn't for Edward Heath we'd have no migrant crisis in Calais, little threat from ISIS, no Rotherham child abuse scandal... And no ukip!
0 -
That illustrates a different, cross-party problem, which is that politicians and especially ministers do not know how ordinary people live: that their income might vary from month to month, for instance. We can also remember Tony Blair not realising that guaranteed 48-hour medical appointments were sometimes not wanted, and the omnishambles budget.ydoethur said:The tax credit system is an absolute joke, or it would be if it were funny. It was by far the worst and most costly mistake Labour ever made, not forgetting the Iraq War - and what was even more bizarre is that they are still very proud of it because they believe that expensively cocking up every year and then being smug about it was in some way helping the poorest!
0 -
Au contraire, it is a most jolly place, freed as it is from the petty vindictive humourless small-minded prejudiced pre-judged group-think assumptions of Lefties.tyson said:
likewise I couldn't get into the head of a Tory member- the Tory mind must be full of some rather unpleasant prejudices that fortunately I cannot relate to.
Life is one long party if you are a Tory.
Life is one long party political broadcast if you are a Lefty.
0 -
O/T, but on this Monday morning, let us all remember that someone, somewhere, is having a much worse day than you are!
https://twitter.com/sasagronomy/status/6306510477453393920 -
Mr. Sandpit, cheers for posting that.
It's the opposite of when I had an interview for a Christmas job. I said I'd chosen that place (BHS restaurant in Leeds) because a university friend of mine had said how great her boss was. Who happened to be conducting the interview with me.0 -
The Good Lady Wifi is still giggling after I related that to her....Sandpit said:O/T, but on this Monday morning, let us all remember that someone, somewhere, is having a much worse day than you are!
https://twitter.com/sasagronomy/status/6306510477453393920 -
Remind me, which PM signed the Channel Tunnel agreement?isam said:If it wasn't for Edward Heath we'd have no migrant crisis in Calais, little threat from ISIS, no Rotherham child abuse scandal... And no ukip!
Just what are you accusing Heath of over child abuse?
0 -
O/T
Tony Benn was an interesting person to talk to during his retirement, especially if it was at Stansgate Abbey Farm, the family house.
It was almost if he felt insulated from day-to-day events by his wealth (inherited, his wife's and from property sale), that he could dream about left-wing theories and it was very difficult to get him to think about their economic practicality. Interestingly, all his assets went to his children and the family house is in trust and nothing to the causes he espoused.0 -
Isam
If it wasn't for Edward Heath we'd have no migrant crisis in Calais, little threat from ISIS, no Rotherham child abuse scandal... And no ukip!
Jimmy Saville eat your heart out0 -
You wouldn’t think it from our local pricesflightpath01 said:
He is fracking amazing too.Pulpstar said:
Diesel back to almost a pound a litre too. George Osborne is f*cking amazing at the momentSandpit said:
So a taxpayer who pays the marginal 20% rate is already more than a grand a year better off just on the tax allowance increase. The minimum wage has also risen in real terms over the same period. I remain to be convinced that the tax credit changes are any more than the undoing of the unaffordable largesse of Gordon Brown before and during the recession, now that the economy is doing well. The other big change with Universal Credit is the elimination of the 16 hours a week rules which limited working hours for benefits recipients.Financier said:
Personal Allowance for 2007/8 was £5,225. For 2015/16 it is £10,600.Sandpit said:
Quite. Are tax credits not being cut back to the levels they were at during the year of poverty and penury that was 2007-2008, before the massive rise in personal tax allowances under the last government?rottenborough said:
Yes, but what will Labour do?TheScreamingEagles said:ICYMI last night.
The Times are reporting Tory MPs are going to revolt over cuts to tax credits that are paid to soap dodging parasites on welfare who breed like rabbits the poor
Two MPs have gone public more set to follow.
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/2709/production/_84139990_tax_credit_spend_gra624_v2.png
Taxing people on one hand only to give some some of it back via an inefficient and error-prone bureaucracy on the other is close to being the definition of madness.
With more than a billion a week still being borrowed, anyone opposing this needs to find another way of raising the money from increased taxes or other spending reductions.
Can anyone explain who is significantly worse off, apart from the parents of as yet unborn 3rd children?
Brent crude is down to $48 again - it was £115 in June 2014 - yet another slump as the world is awash with surplus diesel.0 -
http://labourlist.org/2015/08/cooper-calls-for-protest-free-zones-outside-abortion-clinics/
Is this the best she can do - is this top of the electorate's priorities?0 -
ROFLPulpstar said:
Diesel back to almost a pound a litre too. George Osborne is f*cking amazing at the momentSandpit said:
So a taxpayer who pays the marginal 20% rate is already more than a grand a year better off just on the tax allowance increase. The minimum wage has also risen in real terms over the same period. I remain to be convinced that the tax credit changes are any more than the undoing of the unaffordable largesse of Gordon Brown before and during the recession, now that the economy is doing well. The other big change with Universal Credit is the elimination of the 16 hours a week rules which limited working hours for benefits recipients.Financier said:
Personal Allowance for 2007/8 was £5,225. For 2015/16 it is £10,600.Sandpit said:
Quite. Are tax credits not being cut back to the levels they were at during the year of poverty and penury that was 2007-2008, before the massive rise in personal tax allowances under the last government?rottenborough said:
Yes, but what will Labour do?TheScreamingEagles said:ICYMI last night.
The Times are reporting Tory MPs are going to revolt over cuts to tax credits that are paid to soap dodging parasites on welfare who breed like rabbits the poor
Two MPs have gone public more set to follow.
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/2709/production/_84139990_tax_credit_spend_gra624_v2.png
Taxing people on one hand only to give some some of it back via an inefficient and error-prone bureaucracy on the other is close to being the definition of madness.
With more than a billion a week still being borrowed, anyone opposing this needs to find another way of raising the money from increased taxes or other spending reductions.
Can anyone explain who is significantly worse off, apart from the parents of as yet unborn 3rd children?
if GO can move the energy markets at will why the hell is he wasting his time as CoE ?
Pity he didn't do it in 2011 when you think about it.0 -
Pitiful.Financier said:
http://labourlist.org/2015/08/cooper-calls-for-protest-free-zones-outside-abortion-clinics/
Is this the best she can do - is this top of the electorate's priorities?0 -
Mr. Roger, Savile*.
The way to remember is that he was 'vile'.0 -
Restricting the right to protest - the illiberal liberals are on the rise.Financier said:http://labourlist.org/2015/08/cooper-calls-for-protest-free-zones-outside-abortion-clinics/
Is this the best she can do - is this top of the electorate's priorities?0 -
@LadPolitics: Tom & Jerry now 13/8 to be the Lab leader/deputy team
Even funnier than I thought.......0 -
Hammond is pointing out how wrong it is to let in illegal immigrants ahead of legitimate ones. Indeed he is pointing out patiently and clearly what the issues are - illegal immigration is wrong, full stop and the world is in the middle of a mass migration crisis. All you are doing I am afraid is wringing your hands.Indigo said:
Sadly Tories like to wring their hands about unfortunate language as a substitute for doing something about the problem just as much as Labour doesFinancier said:
As I see it, he is just telling the truth. Europe cannot become a dumping ground for those from Africa, the Middle East and the Indian sub-continent. Those areas have to solve their own problems and throwing money their way is not a solution.TheScreamingEagles said:
That's the one.Roger said:Eagle
Is this the Philip Hammond story? Another Thatcher throwback.....After the Lib Dems departed it was only going to be a matter of time before they crawled out of the woodwork
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/aug/09/african-migrants-threaten-eu-standard-living-philip-hammond
It is so disappointing as I liked him. But he's talking the language of the Daily Mail commentator Nasty, maybe, Intemperate, possibly, but is it true ? And if it's true, what are we actually going to do about it that a) works and b) has a passing chance of being acceptable to the voters.
Letting loads of illegal immigrants in past people waiting patiently in the proper channels, or throwing enough money at poor parts of the world to make a difference will pass neither a) nor b)
Who knows what the solution is, who knows what the voters might accept. It is the basic job of govt to get on with it anyway - whatever the 'it' is that can be decided on - and deal with the results as they arise.
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I would imagine he is trying in his own unique way to say we would have control of our own borders. The ability to not admit, and to expel undesirables would certainly have heavily reduced the problems cited above. However the problem isn't so much Heath and the lamentable European Communities Act, as the EHCR and the extraordinarily abused Article 8.flightpath01 said:
Remind me, which PM signed the Channel Tunnel agreement?isam said:If it wasn't for Edward Heath we'd have no migrant crisis in Calais, little threat from ISIS, no Rotherham child abuse scandal... And no ukip!
Just what are you accusing Heath of over child abuse?0 -
Do they have Spike lurking near them?CarlottaVance said:@LadPolitics: Tom & Jerry now 13/8 to be the Lab leader/deputy team
Even funnier than I thought.......0 -
Are there lots of protests in England and Wales? All the ones I have in mind are American (although I dare say the situation is different in NI).Financier said:http://labourlist.org/2015/08/cooper-calls-for-protest-free-zones-outside-abortion-clinics/
Is this the best she can do - is this top of the electorate's priorities?0 -
The "it" is quite clear, its just no one has the bottle to do it yet. Control (not stop, not even necessarily reduce, control) immigration. Open borders and free movement of labour are a luxury the global realities are going to bring down very shortly. If the moderate political parties don't do something about it, the increasingly exasperated public will start to look for less savoury characters to solve the problem..... and do something about the British judiciaries woeful interpretation of Article 8.flightpath01 said:
Hammond is pointing out how wrong it is to let in illegal immigrants ahead of legitimate ones. Indeed he is pointing out patiently and clearly what the issues are - illegal immigration is wrong, full stop and the world is in the middle of a mass migration crisis. All you are doing I am afraid is wringing your hands.Indigo said:
Sadly Tories like to wring their hands about unfortunate language as a substitute for doing something about the problem just as much as Labour doesFinancier said:
As I see it, he is just telling the truth. Europe cannot become a dumping ground for those from Africa, the Middle East and the Indian sub-continent. Those areas have to solve their own problems and throwing money their way is not a solution.TheScreamingEagles said:
That's the one.Roger said:Eagle
Is this the Philip Hammond story? Another Thatcher throwback.....After the Lib Dems departed it was only going to be a matter of time before they crawled out of the woodwork
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/aug/09/african-migrants-threaten-eu-standard-living-philip-hammond
It is so disappointing as I liked him. But he's talking the language of the Daily Mail commentator Nasty, maybe, Intemperate, possibly, but is it true ? And if it's true, what are we actually going to do about it that a) works and b) has a passing chance of being acceptable to the voters.
Letting loads of illegal immigrants in past people waiting patiently in the proper channels, or throwing enough money at poor parts of the world to make a difference will pass neither a) nor b)
Who knows what the solution is, who knows what the voters might accept. It is the basic job of govt to get on with it anyway - whatever the 'it' is that can be decided on - and deal with the results as they arise.
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Watching this Labour leadership election unfold has been like being inserted into an inverse time-warp - aka Corbyn's jacksieFinancier said:That’s what the Labour Party is trying to do: remove the voters from the equation.
So Corbyn has brushed aside their verdict in favour of his own personal ideology. Although Britons voted for Cameron, he thinks what they really yearn for is a prime minister committed to “prioritising the needs of the poor and the human rights of us all”. Burnham prefers instead to rely on amateur psychology. Labour lost because it had no “emotional connection”. Cooper has opted for political expediency, rather than analysis. The lesson Labour must learn, she argues daringly, is that it “can’t afford to veer to the Left or the Right”.
None of this even remotely resembles a coherent attempt to come to terms with the lessons of May 7. Liz Kendall – to her credit – has tried to remind her party it needs to embrace a slightly wider constituency than those people who were seduced by Ed Miliband last time round. And she’s set to be rewarded with a humiliating fourth place for her efforts.
A few others are also trying to pull the debate back to the fundamentals. Jon Cruddas has begun publishing the findings of the polling he has commissioned into Labour’s defeat. His first tranche of data, released last week, revealed Labour actually lost support because it wasn’t seen as sufficiently supportive of austerity or deficit reduction – voters’ current litmus test for economic competence. But that didn’t quite fit with what Labour activists want to hear at the moment. So the leadership candidates opted to question his methodology, or simply ignore the findings all together.
Watching this Labour leadership election unfold has been like being inserted into an inverse time-warp
Rather than listen to the will of the people, Labour has again decided to tune them out. Which is of course what it did before the election, and why it lost that election. So it will again ignore the eleven and half million people who cast votes for Conservative candidates, and instead focus on the hundred or so people queuing round the block to get in to hear Corbyn call for a return to unilateralism, withdrawal from Nato and a massive increase in government expenditure financed by People’s Quantitative Easing (simply printing more money).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11793205/Are-you-a-voter-Think-that-you-know-best-Labour-doesnt.html0 -
You have posted a nice hostage to fortune there.tyson said:Excellent thread lead Mike and Nojam.
The peculiarities of Labour's voting system will be exposed most by a polarising figure such as Corbyn (much more so than the Ed Miliband or Harman elections). Corbyn is likely to win quite comfortably on the 1st voting preference, but unless he exceeds or is as close as exceeding 50% on the first round, he's not going to win.
It is quite simple, Corbyn just isn't going to pick up any second preferences from any of the others.
Now that I have got my head around the voting system- it naturally has checks and balances to stop a decisive figure becoming leader
Corbyn should never really have been on the ballot - never mind become such a divisive figure. Labour MPs threw the checks and balances out with the bath water.
Why should Corbyn voters give anyone their second preferences?
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Don't get too excited, Im not talking about him personally abusing children.flightpath01 said:
Remind me, which PM signed the Channel Tunnel agreement?isam said:If it wasn't for Edward Heath we'd have no migrant crisis in Calais, little threat from ISIS, no Rotherham child abuse scandal... And no ukip!
Just what are you accusing Heath of over child abuse?
By sacking Enoch Powell, who had the overwhelming support of the public at the time for his opinions on immigration, Heath created the conditions for the segregated society we have in England's major cities, without which the rotherham scandal could not have happened.
African migrants wouldn't be storming the channel tunnel if we weren't part of the EU
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