politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Greece: It’s looking like NO
Comments
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They need more immigrants to support their retirees. (Just as we do).rcs1000 said:
It is easy to break.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is unreasonable when the result of the debt repayments is to shrink your economy. The amount being asked for is equivalent to 10% of government spending each year - at a time when the Greek economy has already shrunk by 25%.. It is a debt deflation cycle that is unbreakable without external help.foxinsoxuk said:
We are currently paying 7% of govt spending on interest, equivalent to 3% of GDP. Is that extra 1% for a debt burden twice the percentage share of GDP really unreasonable?Richard_Tyndall said:This is the view of the former IMF bail out chief Ashoka Mody
"As an international organization responsible for global financial stability, it is the IMF’s role to explain clearly and honestly the economic parameters of a bailout negotiation. The Greeks, many said, benefited from low interest rates and repayments stretched out over many years. Therefore, no debt relief was needed. But, of course, as the IMF now makes clear, if a country has to repay about 4 percent of its income each year over the next 40 years and that country has poor growth prospects precisely because repaying that debt will lower growth, then debt is not sustainable. If this report had been made public earlier, the tone of the public debate and the media’s boorish stereotyping of Greeks and its government would have been balanced by greater clarity on the Greek position."
Those defending the IMF and EU in the way they have handled Greece should perhaps read this.
http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1669-in-bad-faith/
UK debt expenditure sourced here:
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/piechart_2015_UK_total
And if Greek debt is intolerable then is it not wise for Greece to live within its means?
Leave the Eurozone.
But Greece's government has promised the people there is no need to leave the Eurozone.
(As an aside, even before the crisis, Greece had the worst ratio of working people to government retirees in the world. In the Euro, outside the Euro, that is not sustainable.)
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'New Democracy' to revamp as 'New New Democracy'?0
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Not really, it's the same as giving an alcoholic the keys to an off licence and asking him to look after it on holiday and then coming back to find your stock has been drunk and being angry at the alcoholic for doing it. A second time no less!kle4 said:
Both, but Alanbrooke moreso. Enabling someone can be both foolish and destructive, but the person taking advantage of the enabling still had a choice not to do it.MaxPB said:
But once you've lent the hundred quid and Alanbrooke keeps going to the pub even after super-promising not to, who is really at fault?rcs1000 said:
If I lend you 100 pounds on the condition you stop going to the pub every night, and you then continue to go.Alanbrooke said:
Shouldn't they be blaming themselves ?rcs1000 said:
While interest payments of 4% of GDP is high, it is by no means unprecedented. See the chart on this page for the UK: http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/3028/economics/interest-payments-on-uk-debt/Richard_Tyndall said:This is the view of the former IMF bail out chief Ashoka Mody
"As an international organization responsible for global financial stability, it is the IMF’s role to explain clearly and honestly the economic parameters of a bailout negotiation. The Greeks, many said, benefited from low interest rates and repayments stretched out over many years. Therefore, no debt relief was needed. But, of course, as the IMF now makes clear, if a country has to repay about 4 percent of its income each year over the next 40 years and that country has poor growth prospects precisely because repaying that debt will lower growth, then debt is not sustainable. If this report had been made public earlier, the tone of the public debate and the media’s boorish stereotyping of Greeks and its government would have been balanced by greater clarity on the Greek position."
Those defending the IMF and EU in the way they have handled Greece should perhaps read this.
http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1669-in-bad-faith/
In any case, the issue has never been does Greece need a haircut. Yes, of course it does.
But Greece has had one haircut. And the creditors who accepted that haircut did on the condition of reforms and privatisations that did not happen. Can you blame them for demanding that Greece carried our what it previously promised?
Since the institutions most exposed are now those governments which turned a blind eye to Greece's unsuitability to enter the Euro shouldn't they just face facts and cough up ?
Why does moral hazard only apply to the borrower ?
And you then ask for another 100 pounds, am I not entitled to be cross?0 -
Mr. Barnesian, that's just a human pyramid scheme (ahem).0
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@BBCGavinHewitt: Poland's PM says if 'no' vote confirmed then Greece will have no choice but to leave the eurozone.#Grefenderum0
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As is membership of the Euro for them. Of course you miss that one out.foxinsoxuk said:
Greece needs to make structural reforms if it wants to grow, either within or without the EZ, or for that matter the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is unreasonable when the result of the debt repayments is to shrink your economy. The amount being asked for is equivalent to 10% of government spending each year - at a time when the Greek economy has already shrunk by 25%.. It is a debt deflation cycle that is unbreakable without external help.foxinsoxuk said:
We are currently paying 7% of govt spending on interest, equivalent to 3% of GDP. Is that extra 1% for a debt burden twice the percentage share of GDP really unreasonable?Richard_Tyndall said:This is the view of the former IMF bail out chief Ashoka Mody
"As an international organization responsible for global financial stability, it is the IMF’s role to explain clearly and honestly the economic parameters of a bailout negotiation. The Greeks, many said, benefited from low interest rates and repayments stretched out over many years. Therefore, no debt relief was needed. But, of course, as the IMF now makes clear, if a country has to repay about 4 percent of its income each year over the next 40 years and that country has poor growth prospects precisely because repaying that debt will lower growth, then debt is not sustainable. If this report had been made public earlier, the tone of the public debate and the media’s boorish stereotyping of Greeks and its government would have been balanced by greater clarity on the Greek position."
Those defending the IMF and EU in the way they have handled Greece should perhaps read this.
http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1669-in-bad-faith/
UK debt expenditure sourced here:
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/piechart_2015_UK_total
And if Greek debt is intolerable then is it not wise for Greece to live within its means?
Corruption, a feather bedded civil service, an expensive military, an inflexible labour force, a low fertility rate and an unwillingness to pay or collect taxes are the obstacles to economic growth.
If Greece had not been in the Eurozone then although they would still have been in trouble it would have been no where near as serious. And remember much - the vast majority in fact - of the current debt was not built up under the current radical Socialist government but under the previous pro EU, IMF compliant centre left and centre right governments. Even jumping through every hoop demanded of them they still couldn't make it work because basically the EU and IMF demands were unachievable.0 -
@paulwaugh: Good night Greece! says the German CSU https://t.co/VYMk3iFFuN
@FraserNelson: Germany's economic minister says Greeks have "torn down the last bridges" for reaching compromise with EU: http://t.co/89dSTLYVoh0 -
Nope.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 1000, is such a ratio of workers to retirees sustainable *in* the euro?
I've said it once, I'll say it another million times: Greece should have left the Eurozone in an orderly fashion following the SYRIZA elections at the beginning of this year, and with the full support of the IMF.
Greek politicians have lied to their people with regards to the pensions they can receive. They have lied to them about the level of taxes they must pay. They have lied to them about the consequences of voting No.
And now the savers - the people who behaved responsibly - will be the ones to pay to the price.0 -
Exactly, Greece has carried the burden of propping up the French and German banking systems, the new loans they were given only increased the problem. They have a solvency problem not a liquidity problem, large scale debt forgiveness has always been necessary, it is the EU who have been responsible for this outcome and birthed Syriza.Richard_Tyndall said:
I agree that will be a start. But they will still need a huge cut in debt. And as it stands without leaving the EU they cannot leave the Eurozone.rcs1000 said:
It is easy to break.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is unreasonable when the result of the debt repayments is to shrink your economy. The amount being asked for is equivalent to 10% of government spending each year - at a time when the Greek economy has already shrunk by 25%.. It is a debt deflation cycle that is unbreakable without external help.foxinsoxuk said:
We are currently paying 7% of govt spending on interest, equivalent to 3% of GDP. Is that extra 1% for a debt burden twice the percentage share of GDP really unreasonable?Richard_Tyndall said:This is the view of the former IMF bail out chief Ashoka Mody
"As an international organization responsible for global financial stability, it is the IMF’s role to explain clearly and honestly the economic parameters of a bailout negotiation. The Greeks, many said, benefited from low interest rates and repayments stretched out over many years. Therefore, no debt relief was needed. But, of course, as the IMF now makes clear, if a country has to repay about 4 percent of its income each year over the next 40 years and that country has poor growth prospects precisely because repaying that debt will lower growth, then debt is not sustainable. If this report had been made public earlier, the tone of the public debate and the media’s boorish stereotyping of Greeks and its government would have been balanced by greater clarity on the Greek position."
Those defending the IMF and EU in the way they have handled Greece should perhaps read this.
http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1669-in-bad-faith/
UK debt expenditure sourced here:
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/piechart_2015_UK_total
And if Greek debt is intolerable then is it not wise for Greece to live within its means?
Leave the Eurozone.
But Greece's government has promised the people there is no need to leave the Eurozone.
(As an aside, even before the crisis, Greece had the worst ratio of working people to government retirees in the world. In the Euro, outside the Euro, that is not sustainable.)0 -
Having made a modest amount on the No vote, surely Grexit in 2015 at 2.74 on Betfair is good value shortly?
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They currently have 69,000 of them all fresh off boats from North Africa. In fact they have had more migrants in this present crisis than Italy.Barnesian said:
They need more immigrants to support their retirees. (Just as we do).rcs1000 said:
It is easy to break.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is unreasonable when the result of the debt repayments is to shrink your economy. The amount being asked for is equivalent to 10% of government spending each year - at a time when the Greek economy has already shrunk by 25%.. It is a debt deflation cycle that is unbreakable without external help.foxinsoxuk said:
We are currently paying 7% of govt spending on interest, equivalent to 3% of GDP. Is that extra 1% for a debt burden twice the percentage share of GDP really unreasonable?Richard_Tyndall said:This is the view of the former IMF bail out chief Ashoka Mody
"As an international organization responsible for global financial stability, it is the IMF’s role to explain clearly and honestly the economic parameters of a bailout negotiation. The Greeks, many said, benefited from low interest rates and repayments stretched out over many years. Therefore, no debt relief was needed. But, of course, as the IMF now makes clear, if a country has to repay about 4 percent of its income each year over the next 40 years and that country has poor growth prospects precisely because repaying that debt will lower growth, then debt is not sustainable. If this report had been made public earlier, the tone of the public debate and the media’s boorish stereotyping of Greeks and its government would have been balanced by greater clarity on the Greek position."
Those defending the IMF and EU in the way they have handled Greece should perhaps read this.
http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1669-in-bad-faith/
UK debt expenditure sourced here:
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/piechart_2015_UK_total
And if Greek debt is intolerable then is it not wise for Greece to live within its means?
Leave the Eurozone.
But Greece's government has promised the people there is no need to leave the Eurozone.
(As an aside, even before the crisis, Greece had the worst ratio of working people to government retirees in the world. In the Euro, outside the Euro, that is not sustainable.)0 -
Open Europe @OpenEurope
Hollande & Merkel have called for emergency meeting of Eurozone leaders on Tuesday reports @N24. #Greece
9:10 PM - 5 Jul 2015
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@JGForsyth: German rhetoric suggests that they are preparing to try and kick Greece out of the Euro http://t.co/Ddb4s0zJMF0
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Oh pu'lease.FalseFlag said:
Exactly, Greece has carried the burden of propping up the French and German banking systems, the new loans they were given only increased the problem. They have a solvency problem not a liquidity problem, large scale debt forgiveness has always been necessary, it is the EU who have been responsible for this outcome and birthed Syriza.Richard_Tyndall said:
I agree that will be a start. But they will still need a huge cut in debt. And as it stands without leaving the EU they cannot leave the Eurozone.rcs1000 said:
It is easy to break.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is unreasonable when the result of the debt repayments is to shrink your economy. The amount being asked for is equivalent to 10% of government spending each year - at a time when the Greek economy has already shrunk by 25%.. It is a debt deflation cycle that is unbreakable without external help.foxinsoxuk said:
We are currently paying 7% of govt spending on interest, equivalent to 3% of GDP. Is that extra 1% for a debt burden twice the percentage share of GDP really unreasonable?Richard_Tyndall said:This is the view of the former IMF bail out chief Ashoka Mody
"As an international organization responsible for global financial stability, it is the IMF’s role to explain clearly and honestly the economic parameters of a bailout negotiation. The Greeks, many said, benefited from low interest rates and repayments stretched out over many years. Therefore, no debt relief was needed. But, of course, as the IMF now makes clear, if a country has to repay about 4 percent of its income each year over the next 40 years and that country has poor growth prospects precisely because repaying that debt will lower growth, then debt is not sustainable. If this report had been made public earlier, the tone of the public debate and the media’s boorish stereotyping of Greeks and its government would have been balanced by greater clarity on the Greek position."
Those defending the IMF and EU in the way they have handled Greece should perhaps read this.
http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1669-in-bad-faith/
UK debt expenditure sourced here:
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/piechart_2015_UK_total
And if Greek debt is intolerable then is it not wise for Greece to live within its means?
Leave the Eurozone.
But Greece's government has promised the people there is no need to leave the Eurozone.
(As an aside, even before the crisis, Greece had the worst ratio of working people to government retirees in the world. In the Euro, outside the Euro, that is not sustainable.)
German and French banks own about EUR8bn of Greek debt between them. It's peanuts.0 -
Nick Malkoutzis @NickMalkoutzis
If gov't pre-referendum predictions right, pro-#Greece initiative from Renzi tomorrow, banks open on Tue & deal reached in 24-48 hrs #euro
9:03 PM - 5 Jul 2015
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They don't have to do anything. The banks will not open. Greece is shut out of the funding markets. They cannot import food or fuel.Scott_P said:@JGForsyth: German rhetoric suggests that they are preparing to try and kick Greece out of the Euro http://t.co/Ddb4s0zJMF
Greece will pull the trigger themselves and print the Drachma.0 -
What I want to know is what Libya is going to do when the Greek migrants start arriving on boats...Richard_Tyndall said:
They currently have 69,000 of them all fresh off boats from North Africa. In fact they have had more migrants in this present crisis than Italy.Barnesian said:
They need more immigrants to support their retirees. (Just as we do).rcs1000 said:
It is easy to break.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is unreasonable when the result of the debt repayments is to shrink your economy. The amount being asked for is equivalent to 10% of government spending each year - at a time when the Greek economy has already shrunk by 25%.. It is a debt deflation cycle that is unbreakable without external help.foxinsoxuk said:
We are currently paying 7% of govt spending on interest, equivalent to 3% of GDP. Is that extra 1% for a debt burden twice the percentage share of GDP really unreasonable?Richard_Tyndall said:This is the view of the former IMF bail out chief Ashoka Mody
"As an international organization responsible for global financial stability, it is the IMF’s role to explain clearly and honestly the economic parameters of a bailout negotiation. The Greeks, many said, benefited from low interest rates and repayments stretched out over many years. Therefore, no debt relief was needed. But, of course, as the IMF now makes clear, if a country has to repay about 4 percent of its income each year over the next 40 years and that country has poor growth prospects precisely because repaying that debt will lower growth, then debt is not sustainable. If this report had been made public earlier, the tone of the public debate and the media’s boorish stereotyping of Greeks and its government would have been balanced by greater clarity on the Greek position."
Those defending the IMF and EU in the way they have handled Greece should perhaps read this.
http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1669-in-bad-faith/
UK debt expenditure sourced here:
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/piechart_2015_UK_total
And if Greek debt is intolerable then is it not wise for Greece to live within its means?
Leave the Eurozone.
But Greece's government has promised the people there is no need to leave the Eurozone.
(As an aside, even before the crisis, Greece had the worst ratio of working people to government retirees in the world. In the Euro, outside the Euro, that is not sustainable.)0 -
Mr. Foxinsox, sounds like it from the rhetoric, but it would mark a very significant break from ever closer union.
Mr. 1000, I agree entirely, just the way you wrote it made it sound like the ratio could work with the euro, but not with the drachma.
Must admit to being surprised. I thought Yes the likelier winner.0 -
How will they blame it on the Eurozone?rcs1000 said:
They don't have to do anything. The banks will not open. Greece is shut out of the funding markets. They cannot import food or fuel.Scott_P said:@JGForsyth: German rhetoric suggests that they are preparing to try and kick Greece out of the Euro http://t.co/Ddb4s0zJMF
Greece will pull the trigger themselves and print the Drachma.0 -
I don't think anyone pretends the first bailout wasn't for the French and German banks as well as to prop up the Euro, hence the widespread opposition in the IMF. Of course now ordinary taxpayers have had the liability transferred to them instead and will take the lossrcs1000 said:
Oh pu'lease.FalseFlag said:
Exactly, Greece has carried the burden of propping up the French and German banking systems, the new loans they were given only increased the problem. They have a solvency problem not a liquidity problem, large scale debt forgiveness has always been necessary, it is the EU who have been responsible for this outcome and birthed Syriza.Richard_Tyndall said:
I agree that will be a start. But they will still need a huge cut in debt. And as it stands without leaving the EU they cannot leave the Eurozone.rcs1000 said:
It is easy to break.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is unreasonable when the result of the debt repayments is to shrink your economy. The amount being asked for is equivalent to 10% of government spending each year - at a time when the Greek economy has already shrunk by 25%.. It is a debt deflation cycle that is unbreakable without external help.foxinsoxuk said:
We are currently paying 7% of govt spending on interest, equivalent to 3% of GDP. Is that extra 1% for a debt burden twice the percentage share of GDP really unreasonable?Richard_Tyndall said:This is the view of the former IMF bail out chief Ashoka Mod
Those defending the IMF and EU in the way they have handled Greece should perhaps read this.
http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1669-in-bad-faith/
UK debt expenditure sourced here:
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/piechart_2015_UK_total
And if Greek debt is intolerable then is it not wise for Greece to live within its means?
Leave the Eurozone.
But Greece's government has promised the people there is no need to leave the Eurozone.
(As an aside, even before the crisis, Greece had the worst ratio of working people to government retirees in the world. In the Euro, outside the Euro, that is not sustainable.)
German and French banks own about EUR8bn of Greek debt between them. It's peanuts.0 -
Paddy Power a few days ago:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-01/paddy-power-pays-out-early-on-greece-voting-yes-in-referendum
"Paddy Power Pays Out on Greece Voting ‘Yes’ Four Days Early
Paddy Power Plc “paid out five figures” in winnings to gamblers who bet that Greece will back a July 5 austerity referendum that may preserve the nation’s future as part of the euro region.
“Despite some polls suggesting it’s neck and neck, over the last few days we’ve seen enough to be convinced,” Paddy Power, Ireland’s largest bookmaker, said in an e-mail in Dublin on Wednesday. “In a race with two potential outcomes, we’ve seen over 85 percent of money go one way and that’s massive.”"0 -
Mr. Glenn, I'd guess a refusal to recognise the 'sovereign will of the Greek people' or some such silly phrase
If the eurozone don't negotiate, especially after the quotes coming out already, then the Greek Government will say "We wanted to stay in, but it was impossible with everyone against us. Those nasty eurozone leaders."0 -
"They made us do it. The bastards."williamglenn said:
How will they blame it on the Eurozone?rcs1000 said:
They don't have to do anything. The banks will not open. Greece is shut out of the funding markets. They cannot import food or fuel.Scott_P said:@JGForsyth: German rhetoric suggests that they are preparing to try and kick Greece out of the Euro http://t.co/Ddb4s0zJMF
Greece will pull the trigger themselves and print the Drachma.0 -
Membership of the Euro would not have been a problem if they had solved the problems that I listed. Instead they used the cheap money to run up debts and have a party.Richard_Tyndall said:
As is membership of the Euro for them. Of course you miss that one out.foxinsoxuk said:
Greece needs to make structural reforms if it wants to grow, either within or without the EZ, or for that matter the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is unreasonable when the result of the debt repayments is to shrink your economy. The amount being asked for is equivalent to 10% of government spending each year - at a time when the Greek economy has already shrunk by 25%.. It is a debt deflation cycle that is unbreakable without external help.foxinsoxuk said:
We are currently paying 7% of govt spending on interest, equivalent to 3% of GDP. Is that extra 1% for a debt burden twice the percentage share of GDP really unreasonable?Richard_Tyndall said:This is the view of the former IMF bail out chief Ashoka Mody
"As an international organization responsible for global financial stability, it is the IMF’s role to explain clearly and honestly the
Those defending the IMF and EU in the way they have handled Greece should perhaps read this.
http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1669-in-bad-faith/
UK debt expenditure sourced here:
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/piechart_2015_UK_total
And if Greek debt is intolerable then is it not wise for Greece to live within its means?
Corruption, a feather bedded civil service, an expensive military, an inflexible labour force, a low fertility rate and an unwillingness to pay or collect taxes are the obstacles to economic growth.
If Greece had not been in the Eurozone then although they would still have been in trouble it would have been no where near as serious. And remember much - the vast majority in fact - of the current debt was not built up under the current radical Socialist government but under the previous pro EU, IMF compliant centre left and centre right governments. Even jumping through every hoop demanded of them they still couldn't make it work because basically the EU and IMF demands were unachievable.
The lesson is this: if you want the stability of a North European currency then you cannot evade the discipline required.0 -
I was expecting the exit poll to be wrong —but in the opposite direction, (as were a few other people on PB).0
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You'd have to have a heart of stone etc etcAndyJS said:Paddy Power a few days ago:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-01/paddy-power-pays-out-early-on-greece-voting-yes-in-referendum
"Paddy Power Pays Out on Greece Voting ‘Yes’ Four Days Early
Paddy Power Plc “paid out five figures” in winnings to gamblers who bet that Greece will back a July 5 austerity referendum that may preserve the nation’s future as part of the euro region.
“Despite some polls suggesting it’s neck and neck, over the last few days we’ve seen enough to be convinced,” Paddy Power, Ireland’s largest bookmaker, said in an e-mail in Dublin on Wednesday. “In a race with two potential outcomes, we’ve seen over 85 percent of money go one way and that’s massive.”"0 -
It's amazing to think that in 1996, government debt to GDP was 50% higher in Belgium than in Greece.
It's not that way now...0 -
Time is not on Greece's side. Every day the banks don't open; every day that Greece cannot import food or fuel; every day the vital tourist industry is affected... puts enormous pressure on the Greek government.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Glenn, I'd guess a refusal to recognise the 'sovereign will of the Greek people' or some such silly phrase
If the eurozone don't negotiate, especially after the quotes coming out already, then the Greek Government will say "We wanted to stay in, but it was impossible with everyone against us. Those nasty eurozone leaders."0 -
The closest result so far is in Lakonias district where No currently has 51.42%.
Is that a wealthy district of Athens by any chance?
http://ekloges.ypes.gr/current/e/public/index.html?lang=en#{"cls":"eps","params":{}}0 -
Martin Selmayr retweeted
Hugo Dixon @Hugodixon 58m58 minutes ago Hellas
Great tragedy of Greek referendum is that many of those who voted NO probably don't realise what is about to hit them
Martin Selmayr is Jean-Claude Juncker's head of cabinet.0 -
Yanis Varoufakis the Greek finance minister has said in a brief televised statement:
“The Greek people have said No to five years of hypocrisy.
“For five months we negotiated for our logical, reasonable argument to be heard. No new loans if we cannot restructure the previous non-viable loans.
“No to new cuts for poorer people… The goal of our government was to stop the recession and restructure the debt. Unfortunately during these five months, our counterparts in Europe denied a negotation and from the first moment they planned to close our banks and to humiliate us … for criticising their failing bailout agreements.”
“Today the Greek people returned their take or leave it ultimatum.”
“The IMF to its credit said that the debt is not viable.”
“We have to face the European Commission to find a solution to make things better. The heart of Europe beats in Greece.”
“Today’s No is a Yes to a democratic Europe… “0 -
EU will boot them out, as a message to any other countries tempted to rock the boat.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Glenn, I'd guess a refusal to recognise the 'sovereign will of the Greek people' or some such silly phrase
If the eurozone don't negotiate, especially after the quotes coming out already, then the Greek Government will say "We wanted to stay in, but it was impossible with everyone against us. Those nasty eurozone leaders."0 -
Wow. Doesn't sound good for Syrizia.antifrank said:Martin Selmayr retweeted
Hugo Dixon @Hugodixon 58m58 minutes ago Hellas
Great tragedy of Greek referendum is that many of those who voted NO probably don't realise what is about to hit them
Martin Selmayr is Jean-Claude Juncker's head of cabinet.0 -
Avoiding answering the rest of my point I see.foxinsoxuk said:
Membership of the Euro would not have been a problem if they had solved the problems that I listed. Instead they used the cheap money to run up debts and have a party.Richard_Tyndall said:
As is membership of the Euro for them. Of course you miss that one out.foxinsoxuk said:
Greece needs to make structural reforms if it wants to grow, either within or without the EZ, or for that matter the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is unreasonable when the result of the debt repayments is to shrink your economy. The amount being asked for is equivalent to 10% of government spending each year - at a time when the Greek economy has already shrunk by 25%.. It is a debt deflation cycle that is unbreakable without external help.foxinsoxuk said:
We are currently paying 7% of govt spending on interest, equivalent to 3% of GDP. Is that extra 1% for a debt burden twice the percentage share of GDP really unreasonable?Richard_Tyndall said:This is the view of the former IMF bail out chief Ashoka Mody
"As an international organization responsible for global financial stability, it is the IMF’s role to explain clearly and honestly the
Those defending the IMF and EU in the way they have handled Greece should perhaps read this.
http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1669-in-bad-faith/
UK debt expenditure sourced here:
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/piechart_2015_UK_total
And if Greek debt is intolerable then is it not wise for Greece to live within its means?
Corruption, a feather bedded civil service, an expensive military, an inflexible labour force, a low fertility rate and an unwillingness to pay or collect taxes are the obstacles to economic growth.
If Greece had not been in the Eurozone then although they would still have been in trouble it would have been no where near as serious. And remember much - the vast majority in fact - of the current debt was not built up under the current radical Socialist government but under the previous pro EU, IMF compliant centre left and centre right governments. Even jumping through every hoop demanded of them they still couldn't make it work because basically the EU and IMF demands were unachievable.
The lesson is this: if you want the stability of a North European currency then you cannot evade the discipline required.
And they should never have been allowed into the Euro in the first place. Again that is a decision that in large part lies with the EU who were desperate for every EU country to be in the single currency as part of the move towards statehood.0 -
All this politics and economics is complicated, isn't it? Those people who study PPE must be very clever.0
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While we have all be focussed on Greece (understandably)
UNITE BACKS CORBYN
"Britain's biggest trade union Unite is backing veteran left-winger Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader.
The union's executive committee voted to lend its support to Mr Corbyn, with Andy Burnham as its second preference."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-334024380 -
Laconia is the district that contains Sparta. It gives its name to laconic wit.AndyJS said:The closest result so far is in Lakonias district where No currently has 51.42%.
Is that a wealthy district of Athens by any chance?
http://ekloges.ypes.gr/current/e/public/index.html?lang=en#{"cls":"eps","params":{}}0 -
The polls were so wrong!
I know we are not supposed to question the integrity of polling organisations on PB but ....?0 -
Any reason why the Yes vote would be higher there than elsewhere?GarethoftheVale2 said:
Laconia is the district that contains Sparta. It gives its name to laconic wit.AndyJS said:The closest result so far is in Lakonias district where No currently has 51.42%.
Is that a wealthy district of Athens by any chance?
http://ekloges.ypes.gr/current/e/public/index.html?lang=en#{"cls":"eps","params":{}}0 -
Very slim victory for the No vote. They must be very disappointed with these results I guess.
Jakub Krupa @JakubKrupaFE
With 84.9% of votes counted:
OXI/NO 61.5%
NAI/YES 38.5%
#PulsGrecji #Greferendum
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Wait until the crowds stop cheering and get angry when what was promised isn't delivered.foxinsoxuk said:
Wow. Doesn't sound good for Syrizia.antifrank said:Martin Selmayr retweeted
Hugo Dixon @Hugodixon 58m58 minutes ago Hellas
Great tragedy of Greek referendum is that many of those who voted NO probably don't realise what is about to hit them
Martin Selmayr is Jean-Claude Juncker's head of cabinet.0 -
Commenting on twitter about something like this totally unprofessional.0
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DICIGC – Drachma is Crap is Greek Currency
0 -
The problem is that even if you improve competitiveness, unless you are better than the median member of a shared currency, you're going to have an overvalued currency, and you are going to be on the raw end of the divergence sooner or later. This is what Germany doesn't appreciate: not everyone can replicate their performance because not everyone can have an undervalued currency.foxinsoxuk said:
Membership of the Euro would not have been a problem if they had solved the problems that I listed. Instead they used the cheap money to run up debts and have a party.Richard_Tyndall said:
As is membership of the Euro for them. Of course you miss that one out.foxinsoxuk said:
Greece needs to make structural reforms if it wants to grow, either within or without the EZ, or for that matter the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is unreasonable when the result of the debt repayments is to shrink your economy. The amount being asked for is equivalent to 10% of government spending each year - at a time when the Greek economy has already shrunk by 25%.. It is a debt deflation cycle that is unbreakable without external help.foxinsoxuk said:
We are currently paying 7% of govt spending on interest, equivalent to 3% of GDP. Is that extra 1% for a debt burden twice the percentage share of GDP really unreasonable?Richard_Tyndall said:This is the view of the former IMF bail out chief Ashoka Mody
"As an international organization responsible for global financial stability, it is the IMF’s role to explain clearly and honestly the
Those defending the IMF and EU in the way they have handled Greece should perhaps read this.
http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1669-in-bad-faith/
UK debt expenditure sourced here:
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/piechart_2015_UK_total
And if Greek debt is intolerable then is it not wise for Greece to live within its means?
Corruption, a feather bedded civil service, an expensive military, an inflexible labour force, a low fertility rate and an unwillingness to pay or collect taxes are the obstacles to economic growth.
If Greece had not been in the Eurozone then although they would still have been in trouble it would have been no where near as serious. And remember much - the vast majority in fact - of the current debt was not built up under the current radical Socialist government but under the previous pro EU, IMF compliant centre left and centre right governments. Even jumping through every hoop demanded of them they still couldn't make it work because basically the EU and IMF demands were unachievable.
The lesson is this: if you want the stability of a North European currency then you cannot evade the discipline required.0 -
Mr. 1983 to whom are you referring?0
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I agree that Greece should only have joined the Euro after it had sorted out its economy; but it could have worked if it had reformed its economy concurrently.Richard_Tyndall said:
Avoiding answering the rest of my point I see.foxinsoxuk said:
Membership of the Euro would not have been a problem if they had solved the problems that I listed. Instead they used the cheap money to run up debts and have a party.Richard_Tyndall said:
As is membership of the Euro for them. Of course you miss that one out.foxinsoxuk said:
Greece needs to make structural reforms if it wants to grow, either within or without the EZ, or for that matter the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is unreasonable when the result of the debt repayments is to shrink your economy. The amount being asked for is equivalent to 10% of government spending each year - at a time when the Greek economy has already shrunk by 25%.. It is a debt deflation cycle that is unbreakable without external help.foxinsoxuk said:
We are currently paying 7% of govt spending on interest, equivalent to 3% of GDP. Is that extra 1% for a debt burden twice the percentage share of GDP really unreasonable?Richard_Tyndall said:This is the view of the former IMF bail out chief Ashoka Mody
"As an international organization responsible for global financial stability, it is the IMF’s role to explain clearly and honestly the
Those defending the IMF and EU in the way they have handled Greece should perhaps read this.
http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1669-in-bad-faith/
UK debt expenditure sourced here:
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/piechart_2015_UK_total
And if Greek debt is intolerable then is it not wise for Greece to live within its means?
Corruption, a feather bedded civil service, an expensive military, an inflexible labour force, a low fertility rate and an unwillingness to pay or collect taxes are the obstacles to economic growth.
If Greece had not been in
The lesson is this: if you want the stability of a North European currency then you cannot evade the discipline required.
And they should never have been allowed into the Euro in the first place. Again that is a decision that in large part lies with the EU who were desperate for every EU country to be in the single currency as part of the move towards statehood.
I have made over 8000 posts and you will not find one where I have advocated either the UK or any other country joining the Euro. Having joined though they are obliged to follow the rules.
You are very tiresome in the way you misrepresent my views.0 -
So is this the most stunning act of Greek resistance since Thermoplyae?0
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@StigAbell: Now that Greece has voted "against austerity", presumably the next move is just to sit back and watch the money start flowing. #Greferendum0
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Nothing was promised. The only certainty was what would happen if they voted Yes.watford30 said:
Wait until the crowds stop cheering and get angry when what was promised isn't delivered.foxinsoxuk said:
Wow. Doesn't sound good for Syrizia.antifrank said:Martin Selmayr retweeted
Hugo Dixon @Hugodixon 58m58 minutes ago Hellas
Great tragedy of Greek referendum is that many of those who voted NO probably don't realise what is about to hit them
Martin Selmayr is Jean-Claude Juncker's head of cabinet.
0 -
Mr. Eagles, Thermopylae was noble and glorious. And the Greeks lost.0
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0
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The reason that the Greek debt is so unsupportable and the economy shrank by 25% was that it was inflated by spending funded by cheap borrowing. When the money stopped, the balloon collapsed.Richard_Tyndall said:
If Greece had not been in the Eurozone then although they would still have been in trouble it would have been no where near as serious. And remember much - the vast majority in fact - of the current debt was not built up under the current radical Socialist government but under the previous pro EU, IMF compliant centre left and centre right governments. Even jumping through every hoop demanded of them they still couldn't make it work because basically the EU and IMF demands were unachievable.
If Greece hadn't been in the Euro, 15% interest rates on government borrowing would have stopped the party much earlier.
Of course, we would have the Guardian running articles telling us that 15% interest rates on Greek government bonds was an attack on their sovereign right to borrow....0 -
Mr. 1983, you may have a point, though he isn't the only public figure saying less than complimentary things about Greece right now.0
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The best victory since the battle of Asculum?TheScreamingEagles said:So is this the most stunning act of Greek resistance since Thermoplyae?
0 -
Yeah, but the Greeks won the Greco-Persian war.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, Thermopylae was noble and glorious. And the Greeks lost.
As I keep on telling you about Hannibal, winning the odd battle here and there doesn't mean much if you lose the war.0 -
Richard_Tyndall said:
Er! When will we see executives from Goldman Sachs in prison?foxinsoxuk said:
Avoiding answering the rest of my point I see.Richard_Tyndall said:
Membership of the Euro would not have been a problem if they had solved the problems that I listed. Instead they used the cheap money to run up debts and have a party.foxinsoxuk said:
Greece needs to make structural reforms if it wants to grow, either within or without the EZ, or for that matter the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is unreasonable when the result of the debt repayments is to shrink your economy. The amount being asked for is equivalent to 10% of government spending each year - at a time when the Greek economy has already shrunk by 25%.. It is a debt deflation cycle that is unbreakable without external help.foxinsoxuk said:
We are currently paying 7% of govt spending on interest, equivalent to 3% of GDP. Is that extra 1% for a debt burden twice the percentage share of GDP really unreasonable?Richard_Tyndall said:This is the view of the former IMF bail out chief Ashoka Mody
"As an international organization responsible for global financial stability, it is the IMF’s role to explain clearly and honestly the
Those defending the IMF and EU in the way they have handled Greece should perhaps read this.
http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1669-in-bad-faith/
UK debt expenditure sourced here:
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/piechart_2015_UK_total
And if Greek debt is intolerable then is it not wise for Greece to live within its means?
Corruption, a feather bedded civil service, an expensive military, an inflexible labour force, a low fertility rate and an unwillingness to pay or collect taxes are the obstacles to economic growth.</ </p>
The lesson is this: if you want the stability of a North European currency then you cannot evade the discipline required.
And they should never have been allowed into the Euro in the first place. Again that is a decision that in large part lies with the EU who were desperate for every EU country to be in the single currency as part of the move towards statehood.0 -
Ah, a Pyrrhic victoryfoxinsoxuk said:
The best victory since the battle of Asculum?TheScreamingEagles said:So is this the most stunning act of Greek resistance since Thermoplyae?
0 -
Not to be lost in the Santorini-style explosion taking place in Greece tonight, some British fiscal news:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cb821058-2317-11e5-9c4e-a775d2b173ca.html?siteedition=uk#axzz3f3HMbrLY
"the chancellor is enjoying some good fiscal news, with economists saying he is likely to have up to £15bn more leeway on the public finances than expected three months ago."0 -
I think that only applies to UK accredited ones as PB wants to protect relationships, embargoed early access etc.Barnesian said:The polls were so wrong!
I know we are not supposed to question the integrity of polling organisations on PB but ....?
The Greek based ones will be out of business by the end of the week so we can say what we like about their crapness I guess. What are they going to do about it, eh?0 -
@alstewitn: #greekreferendum #haikuTheScreamingEagles said:Ah, a Pyrrhic victory
'Pyrrhic' victory
is Greek, by derivation;
'ironic', latin.0 -
Mr. Eagles, and Mr. Foxinsox, Pyrrhus was an Epirot.
Mr. Eagles, winning the war is leaving the eurozone. Which the Greeks don't want to do.0 -
Time for some Dick Tuck (what an awesome name the man had) pedantry: the phrase is actually "The people have spoken, the bastards." No voters or voting. But he also came up with, while behind in the count, "Just wait till the dead vote comes in."
Legendary guy. Even if you disbelieve his alleged role in the Nixon pranks. And quite a life - he was in Robert Kennedy's ambulance after he was shot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tuck0 -
@jimwaterson: British political types celebrating a Greek no vote: SNP supporters, Nigel Farage, Labour's hard left, Nick Griffin.
@JournoStephen: Of course, it would be wrong to tar all those parties with the same brush just because they were on the same side of a referendum.0 -
Beware of Greeks bearing gilts.
0 -
Greeks argue that Epirus is part of Greece...Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, and Mr. Foxinsox, Pyrrhus was an Epirot.
Mr. Eagles, winning the war is leaving the eurozone. Which the Greeks don't want to do.0 -
I misrepresent nothing. You consistently make posts trying to excuse the behaviour of the EU and pretend that all the blame lies with the Greeks alone. You consistently try to deflect attention from the basic fundamental issues of a single currency without a single state and attack Eurosceptics when they make that contention - the same contention we have made for the last 2 decades and which people like you have consistently denied.foxinsoxuk said:
I agree that Greece should only have joined the Euro after it had sorted out its economy; but it could have worked if it had reformed its economy concurrently.
I have made over 8000 posts and you will not find one where I have advocated either the UK or any other country joining the Euro. Having joined though they are obliged to follow the rules.
You are very tiresome in the way you misrepresent my views.
The famous phrase we used when Eurofanatics - chief amongst them the party you still support - were trying to push us into the Single Currency saying it was inevitable was:
"Everyone said the Titanic would set sail and they were right. It still didn't make it a good idea to be on board."
Unfortunately Greece are the Third Class Steerage passengers locked below decks.0 -
Winning the war is making the Germans work until they are 70 so they can pay the Greeks to retire at 55Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, and Mr. Foxinsox, Pyrrhus was an Epirot.
Mr. Eagles, winning the war is leaving the eurozone. Which the Greeks don't want to do.0 -
Tsipras promised again and again that it wasn't a vote against being in the Euro. If it emerges that he was printing Drachma all along I wouldn't want to be in his shoes.Luckyguy1983 said:
Nothing was promised. The only certainty was what would happen if they voted Yes.watford30 said:
Wait until the crowds stop cheering and get angry when what was promised isn't delivered.foxinsoxuk said:
Wow. Doesn't sound good for Syrizia.antifrank said:Martin Selmayr retweeted
Hugo Dixon @Hugodixon 58m58 minutes ago Hellas
Great tragedy of Greek referendum is that many of those who voted NO probably don't realise what is about to hit them
Martin Selmayr is Jean-Claude Juncker's head of cabinet.
I'm sure Tsipras and Varoufakis have a plan which will have dramatic consequences but I don't think it will in any way resemble what might look like the obvious solution.0 -
Mr. Foxinsox, Greeks sometimes also argue Alexander the Great was Greek. They're wrong, twice over.0
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While I agree with your point, that never happened outside of Hollywood dramatisation. Locking people below deck on a sinking ship would have led to murder charges.Richard_Tyndall said:
I misrepresent nothing. You consistently make posts trying to excuse the behaviour of the EU and pretend that all the blame lies with the Greeks alone. You consistently try to deflect attention from the basic fundamental issues of a single currency without a single state and attack Eurosceptics when they make that contention - the same contention we have made for the last 2 decades and which people like you have consistently denied.foxinsoxuk said:
I agree that Greece should only have joined the Euro after it had sorted out its economy; but it could have worked if it had reformed its economy concurrently.
I have made over 8000 posts and you will not find one where I have advocated either the UK or any other country joining the Euro. Having joined though they are obliged to follow the rules.
You are very tiresome in the way you misrepresent my views.
The famous phrase we used when Eurofanatics - chief amongst them the party you still support - were trying to push us into the Single Currency saying it was inevitable was:
"Everyone said the Titanic would set sail and they were right. It still didn't make it a good idea to be on board."
Unfortunately Greece are the Third Class Steerage passengers locked below decks.0 -
Mr. Eagles, vielleicht.
Would you rather be in Germany or Greece's shoes?0 -
Sort of. He's retweeted something rather than actually saying anything himself.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 1983, you may have a point, though he isn't the only public figure saying less than complimentary things about Greece right now.
So you can only infer implied agreement.
Maybe a small distinction - but a distinction nevertheless.0 -
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.0
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Can I just say, hark at some in this thread who have all these pithy words of wisdom for Greece: 'Instead they used the cheap money to run up debts and have a party.' Yet are these same people not anti-austerity Labour voters advocating more deficit-funded public spending for the UK? Strange how they seem quite prepared to advocate hair shirts and slashed public sector pensions for other countries.0
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Germany's shoes.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, vielleicht.
Would you rather be in Germany or Greece's shoes?
The Greeks, not them, are close to not having a pot to piss in.0 -
Eh, it's what people do nowadays. Cabinet reshuffles, policy announcements, bitter comments about rivals. The new professionalism I guess.Luckyguy1983 said:Commenting on twitter about something like this totally unprofessional.
0 -
But there is no legal mechanism for a country to leave the euro, so they weren't wrong.williamglenn said:
Tsipras promised again and again that it wasn't a vote against being in the Euro. If it emerges that he was printing Drachma all along I wouldn't want to be in his shoes.Luckyguy1983 said:
Nothing was promised. The only certainty was what would happen if they voted Yes.watford30 said:
Wait until the crowds stop cheering and get angry when what was promised isn't delivered.foxinsoxuk said:
Wow. Doesn't sound good for Syrizia.antifrank said:Martin Selmayr retweeted
Hugo Dixon @Hugodixon 58m58 minutes ago Hellas
Great tragedy of Greek referendum is that many of those who voted NO probably don't realise what is about to hit them
Martin Selmayr is Jean-Claude Juncker's head of cabinet.
I'm sure Tsipras and Varoufakis have a plan which will have dramatic consequences but I don't think it will in any way resemble what might look like the obvious solution.
0 -
Can you link to a single post where I have denied that currency union requires political union?Richard_Tyndall said:
I misrepresent nothing. You consistently make posts trying to excuse the behaviour of the EU and pretend that all the blame lies with the Greeks alone. You consistently try to deflect attention from the basic fundamental issues of a single currency without a single state and attack Eurosceptics when they make that contention - the same contention we have made for the last 2 decades and which people like you have consistently denied.foxinsoxuk said:
I agree that Greece should only have joined the Euro after it had sorted out its economy; but it could have worked if it had reformed its economy concurrently.
I have made over 8000 posts and you will not find one where I have advocated either the UK or any other country joining the Euro. Having joined though they are obliged to follow the rules.
You are very tiresome in the way you misrepresent my views.
The famous phrase we used when Eurofanatics - chief amongst them the party you still support - were trying to push us into the Single Currency saying it was inevitable was:
"Everyone said the Titanic would set sail and they were right. It still didn't make it a good idea to be on board."
Unfortunately Greece are the Third Class Steerage passengers locked below decks.
If not then you misrepresent my views.0 -
Yes, I know, and it's beneath contempt.kle4 said:
Eh, it's what people do nowadays. Cabinet reshuffles, policy announcements, bitter comments about rivals. The new professionalism I guess.Luckyguy1983 said:Commenting on twitter about something like this totally unprofessional.
0 -
Do countries have shoes?
Italy is one of course.
Am I missing the point here?0 -
Certainly the attempt to blame the Greek mess on lefty thinking alone would be unfair, though pending a great deal off the back of this referendum win, the current lot will have made things even worse. If they can get a better deal, then apparently the 'politics of the student union' as has been commented many times among the commentariat, will have been more effective than I had realised.OchEye said:And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
0 -
Right and left wing are pretty much meaningless concepts, especially when comparing countries. For instance compare the so-called left-wing Democratic Party in the US with the so-called left-wing Labour Party in the UK.OchEye said:And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
0 -
Sorry, but you dodged the question, but I'm generous, how about another try at answering?kle4 said:
Certainly the attempt to blame the Greek mess on lefty thinking alone would be unfair, though pending a great deal off the back of this referendum win, the current lot will have made things even worse. If they can get a better deal, then apparently the 'politics of the student union' as has been commented many times among the commentariat, will have been more effective than I had realised.OchEye said:And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
0 -
It was all parties of left and right. A very small number of people called for reform, end of tax evasion etc. They were repeatedly howled down. In one case, a Greek economics professor was hounded from his job at Athens University after he publicly denounced the system by which the government bought votes with unfunded pension increases and other social measures. The response from left and right to the death threats (serious ones) was that he deserved them.kle4 said:
Certainly the attempt to blame the Greek mess on lefty thinking alone would be unfair, though pending a great deal off the back of this referendum win, the current lot will have made things even worse. If they can get a better deal, then apparently the 'politics of the student union' as has been commented many times among the commentariat, will have been more effective than I had realised.OchEye said:And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
0 -
Those are my words, and I have consistently argued for sound money and a balanced budget. I am not an "anti-austerity Labour voter"; I am a LibDem, of the Orange Book variety.Luckyguy1983 said:Can I just say, hark at some in this thread who have all these pithy words of wisdom for Greece: 'Instead they used the cheap money to run up debts and have a party.' Yet are these same people not anti-austerity Labour voters advocating more deficit-funded public spending for the UK? Strange how they seem quite prepared to advocate hair shirts and slashed public sector pensions for other countries.
0 -
As many people have pointed out, that is meaningless given the practical requirement to have a currency you can use.Luckyguy1983 said:
But there is no legal mechanism for a country to leave the euro, so they weren't wrong.williamglenn said:
Tsipras promised again and again that it wasn't a vote against being in the Euro. If it emerges that he was printing Drachma all along I wouldn't want to be in his shoes.Luckyguy1983 said:
Nothing was promised. The only certainty was what would happen if they voted Yes.watford30 said:
Wait until the crowds stop cheering and get angry when what was promised isn't delivered.foxinsoxuk said:
Wow. Doesn't sound good for Syrizia.antifrank said:Martin Selmayr retweeted
Hugo Dixon @Hugodixon 58m58 minutes ago Hellas
Great tragedy of Greek referendum is that many of those who voted NO probably don't realise what is about to hit them
Martin Selmayr is Jean-Claude Juncker's head of cabinet.
I'm sure Tsipras and Varoufakis have a plan which will have dramatic consequences but I don't think it will in any way resemble what might look like the obvious solution.
Syriza will need to act fast and if their solution is to unveil a new Drachma in short order it will be the biggest betrayal of the electorate imaginable, yet if they prevaricate the chances of civil society breaking down are high.0 -
De facto is as de facto does. They can argue technicalities and legalities all they like, if it transpires Greece can in effect be forced out somehow, that have to deal with the consequences of that. Conversely, the other side have some explaining to do about the claims this was a vote on the Euro if it turns out Greece will keep using it, and acting as if they suddenly realised they had no legal means to enforce that won't cut it.Luckyguy1983 said:
But there is no legal mechanism for a country to leave the euro, so they weren't wrong.williamglenn said:
Tsipras promised again and again that it wasn't a vote against being in the Euro. If it emerges that he was printing Drachma all along I wouldn't want to be in his shoes.Luckyguy1983 said:
Nothing was promised. The only certainty was what would happen if they voted Yes.watford30 said:
Wait until the crowds stop cheering and get angry when what was promised isn't delivered.foxinsoxuk said:
Wow. Doesn't sound good for Syrizia.antifrank said:Martin Selmayr retweeted
Hugo Dixon @Hugodixon 58m58 minutes ago Hellas
Great tragedy of Greek referendum is that many of those who voted NO probably don't realise what is about to hit them
Martin Selmayr is Jean-Claude Juncker's head of cabinet.
I'm sure Tsipras and Varoufakis have a plan which will have dramatic consequences but I don't think it will in any way resemble what might look like the obvious solution.0 -
Correction noted, sounds he had quite a life!MyBurningEars said:Time for some Dick Tuck (what an awesome name the man had) pedantry: the phrase is actually "The people have spoken, the bastards." No voters or voting. But he also came up with, while behind in the count, "Just wait till the dead vote comes in."
Legendary guy. Even if you disbelieve his alleged role in the Nixon pranks. And quite a life - he was in Robert Kennedy's ambulance after he was shot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tuck0 -
Sadly, supposedly conservative parties on the continent have been as blindly Europhile as socialist ones. They could take a few lessons from British conservatism, but they refuse to learn no matter how many bad results the EU gets. We have one last chance to persuade them that ever closer union is a mistake and greater flexibility is the way to go. Let us see how they listen.OchEye said:And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
0 -
Tweeting is at least more honest than unattributable press briefings, which have been the staple of politics for over a century.Luckyguy1983 said:
Yes, I know, and it's beneath contempt.kle4 said:
Eh, it's what people do nowadays. Cabinet reshuffles, policy announcements, bitter comments about rivals. The new professionalism I guess.Luckyguy1983 said:Commenting on twitter about something like this totally unprofessional.
0 -
Right and Left were responsible but under Samaras Greece was at least beginning to recover, it achieved a primary government surplus in 2013, returned to growth in the second quarter of 2014 and was the fastest growing economy in the eurozone in the third quarterOchEye said:And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
0 -
Dearly beloved, we are gathered here for the funeral of the Orange Book believers...... ROFLMAO!foxinsoxuk said:
Those are my words, and I have consistently argued for sound money and a balanced budget. I am not an "anti-austerity Labour voter"; I am a LibDem, of the Orange Book variety.Luckyguy1983 said:Can I just say, hark at some in this thread who have all these pithy words of wisdom for Greece: 'Instead they used the cheap money to run up debts and have a party.' Yet are these same people not anti-austerity Labour voters advocating more deficit-funded public spending for the UK? Strange how they seem quite prepared to advocate hair shirts and slashed public sector pensions for other countries.
0 -
Well the difference between the Greeks and the Germans is not that much really... Oh?
Viktoria Dendrinou @v_dendrinou
Greek PM Tsipras says tonight's result is not a mandate for rupture with Europe, but one for a strengthened negotiating position for Greece
9:37 PM - 5 Jul 2015 · Greece, Hellas
Jeanette Minns AN HOUR AGO
Angela Merkel reported to have said to her party that Alexis Tsipras has effectively “slammed his party into a wall,” according to a BBC report. “Europe is strong, it can withstand something like this.”
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To be resurrected shortly...OchEye said:
Dearly beloved, we are gathered here for the funeral of the Orange Book believers...... ROFLMAO!foxinsoxuk said:
Those are my words, and I have consistently argued for sound money and a balanced budget. I am not an "anti-austerity Labour voter"; I am a LibDem, of the Orange Book variety.Luckyguy1983 said:Can I just say, hark at some in this thread who have all these pithy words of wisdom for Greece: 'Instead they used the cheap money to run up debts and have a party.' Yet are these same people not anti-austerity Labour voters advocating more deficit-funded public spending for the UK? Strange how they seem quite prepared to advocate hair shirts and slashed public sector pensions for other countries.
0 -
Supporting sound money is inconsistent with supporting the single currency. Supporting more centralization to Brussels is inconsistent with supporting liberal democracy.foxinsoxuk said:
Those are my words, and I have consistently argued for sound money and a balanced budget. I am not an "anti-austerity Labour voter"; I am a LibDem, of the Orange Book variety.Luckyguy1983 said:Can I just say, hark at some in this thread who have all these pithy words of wisdom for Greece: 'Instead they used the cheap money to run up debts and have a party.' Yet are these same people not anti-austerity Labour voters advocating more deficit-funded public spending for the UK? Strange how they seem quite prepared to advocate hair shirts and slashed public sector pensions for other countries.
0 -
@NinaDSchick: Luxembourg's Foreign Minister Asselborn on @ZDF: It's impossible for ECB to allow a haircut on #Greek debt. #Greece https://t.co/W6I6PztIZn0
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We have seen the government repeatedly, and rather impressively, let labour bash on and on about some impending doom, and then doing something different.antifrank said:Not to be lost in the Santorini-style explosion taking place in Greece tonight, some British fiscal news:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cb821058-2317-11e5-9c4e-a775d2b173ca.html?siteedition=uk#axzz3f3HMbrLY
"the chancellor is enjoying some good fiscal news, with economists saying he is likely to have up to £15bn more leeway on the public finances than expected three months ago."
At any point, including the PMQs the day before, they could have pointed out that maybe the child poverty figures wouldnt be as bad as everyone expected, while under repeated attack by harriet harman (and believe me, large grunts of pre-orgasmic delight by the poverty mongerors expected it to be really bad), but no, they kept stum.
Is the big lather than labour are getting themselves into over child tax credits another one of these? And we find that he only trims round the edges.
I see a former labour ppc in my region is calling the removal of rent subsidy to people on £30k upwards as a 'middle class bedroom tax'.
Oh dear.
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According to the OECD, the effective age of men retiring in Germany is 62.1 and in Greece it is 61.9. Not a lot of difference in spite of all the misinformation in recent weeks.TheScreamingEagles said:
Winning the war is making the Germans work until they are 70 so they can pay the Greeks to retire at 55Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, and Mr. Foxinsox, Pyrrhus was an Epirot.
Mr. Eagles, winning the war is leaving the eurozone. Which the Greeks don't want to do.
http://www.oecd.org/els/emp/ageingandemploymentpolicies-statisticsonaverageeffectiveageofretirement.htm
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The current all-too-public Danczuk breakup is a particularly nasty topical example.Luckyguy1983 said:
Yes, I know, and it's beneath contempt.kle4 said:
Eh, it's what people do nowadays. Cabinet reshuffles, policy announcements, bitter comments about rivals. The new professionalism I guess.Luckyguy1983 said:Commenting on twitter about something like this totally unprofessional.
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