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SystemSystem Posts: 12,685
edited May 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Developments this afternoon show that Yvette Cooper is still very much in the LAB leadership race

This afternoon it’s been announced that a further six MPs have come out and said they are backing Yvette Cooper – a move that reminds me of Henry H Manson’s words on the site ten days ago about her having the best organised campaign.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,931
    FPTP
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,113
    Quite agree, I've been buying shares in Yvette recently too !

    15-2 is an amazing price.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,391
    FPT
    Dair said:

    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    TCPoliticalBetting said:

    TCPoliticalBetting said:

    BBC balance on R4 WATO 3 v 1.
    Lib Dems Farron, Labour's Chuka and an SNP lady all attack the one Conservative person.
    If its ok to have a party of 8 (LDs) then what about the DUP?

    That was one of the most point less discussions to be held. No acknowledgement by the 3 opposition parties that the Govt was elected by the UK to implement its manifesto. Farron clearly very comfortable smearing the tories with inflamatory language, let us hope that the Lib Dems choose him and be led to a new descent into oblivion.
    It was not elected by the UK. It polled 37% of the vote and a broken and corrupt electoral system let it impose the Tyrany of the Minority.
    Until such time as we vote 37% who want to change the electoral system (but will have to use the broken system and their tyranny of the minority to impose the change), we can do little but whinge about it. I'm not holding my breath. The only limited solace is it is not more in princple unfair than previous governments.
    Only Blair's third term comes close to being as lacking in legitimacy. All other UK governments have held over 40% of the popular vote, the vast bulk of them well over 45%.

    But that's almost beside the point. The point is that anyone claiming the Tories have a legitimate claim to impose their manifesto on the UK because it was voted for fall at this simple test. After all 45% of Scotland voted for Independence, a significantly higher level of support than the current UK government has.
    40-45 is better, but hardly significantly better in terms of overall fairness. As I've made clear before, I want a more proportional and, I believe, fairer system, but that does not in itself make the Tories now or Labour then or anyone else imposing their manifestos 'illegitimate' as the system permits that and the system is not illegitimate, it is just unfair.

    One might argue that any system that is unfair is illegitimate, but that I think is a more abstract point which, while not irrelevant, does not directly impact the actual illegitimacy of the system as it is, as much as I believe it should be changed. If the people have not elected in representatives to change that system, they have implicitly accepted the outcomes made possible by that system as legitimate.

    Maybe we are close the point where enough people will vote for representatives who do want to change the system that the legitimacy can be challenged, but at present as unfair as it appears to me, I cannot question the legitimacy of this government or the past Blair government to govern as they did onthe vote they received.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,792
    I agree.

    Simon Burns, giving a fine speech.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited May 2015
    The US FIFA investigation apparently goes back to the 1990s.

    It's actually getting some coverage on the US sports networks.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Yet Liz Kendall is blue on oddschecker. Has something happened during the Queen's Speech?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,931
    FPT

    Ooops forgot to include the NI Unionists in my Right-wing seats tally.

    So right-wing popular vote = 50.5% (Con, UKIP, DUP, UUP and TUV)
    Right-wing seats at Westminster = 341 (52.5% of 650)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,936
    Tim_B said:

    The US FIFA investigation apparently goes back to the 1990s.

    It's actually getting some coverage on the US sports networks.

    This will be very interesting in how it plays out. It is of note that the investigation is in the US, where white-collar criminals can expect big jail terms. My guess is that those they've arrested will be given the choice of either a 20 year stretch or testifying against Blatter.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    This thread has knocked a point off Yvette already.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,113
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    Yet Liz Kendall is blue on oddschecker. Has something happened during the Queen's Speech?

    DecrepitJohnL said:

    This thread has knocked a point off Yvette already.

    This thread and those 6 declarations will do that.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited May 2015
    Yes, Yvette is too long. The Isabel Harman paragraph which Mike quotes is perhaps even more significant than the MPs' endorsements.

    Of course, to benefit from second-preferences in an AV system you need to ensure you're not eliminated on first preferences, which makes it rather a lottery. Nonetheless, you can envisage a possible route for Yvette to win this contest, even if things don't change very much, whereby Liz Kendall is eliminated first and Yvette picks up the bulk of her supporters' 2nd prefs.

    At the moment, it seems to me that punters are giving insufficient weight to the organisational advantage of Yvette over Liz (and to a lesser extent over Andy), and also to the fact that the electorate in this contest are largely much more left-wing than Liz. There's also the union aspect, which remains key to the contest: the unions may prefer Andy to Yvette, but even more so they'll prefer Yvette to Liz.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited May 2015
    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    That's a very offensive comment. You should be ashamed of it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,792
    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    Huzzah, does this mean we get to gas the undesirables ?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,931
    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    Godwin!
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited May 2015
    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    WTF? Really? [Edit: MarqueeMark sums it up perfectly]
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited May 2015
    9 FIFA officials and 5 corporate executives indicted in federal court in Brooklyn on racketeering conspiracy and corruption charges. Defendants include 2 current FIFA vice presidents, and current and former presidents of CONCACAF. They are accused of accepting bribes and kick-backs between the early 1990s and now.

    Even ESPN is covering the DOJ press conference at 10.30 ET
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,543
    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    I don't think the current government really represents the Fourth Reich.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,113
    @Richard_Nabavi Some others here have been using "Waffen Yes Yes" and "Yestapo" terms though. We must ensure sauce for goose and gander alike.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,455
    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.


    For a different perspective, The Economist:

    "The prime minister is in a delightfully strong position. And if, despite the efforts of his party’s cantankerous wing, he succeeds, he could open up to his party new segments of the electorate beyond its southern, middle-class strongholds. Labour is downtrodden, faces months of internal debate and may tilt left. The Lib Dems have been reduced to a tiny, traumatised rump. The centre ground is there for the taking. A decade after he first set his sights on it, Mr Cameron has a chance to seize it."

    http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21651201-emboldened-and-strengthened-his-electoral-triumph-prime-minister-sets-out-finish-what
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,931
    Maybe Dair considers Narendra Modi as a "pretender" to the Indian PM'ship, having gained a majority on only 31% of the vote roughly a year ago.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited May 2015
    Dair said: " Only Blair's third term comes close to being as lacking in legitimacy. All other UK governments have held over 40% of the popular vote, the vast bulk of them well over 45%.
    But that's almost beside the point. The point is that anyone claiming the Tories have a legitimate claim to impose their manifesto on the UK because it was voted for fall at this simple test. After all 45% of Scotland voted for Independence, a significantly higher level of support than the current UK government has."

    In 2007 the SNP formed the entire Scottish govt with just 32%/31% of the votes. So Dair must have protested about the illegitamacy of that bunch who came in with less than the current UK govt.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    FPT

    Ooops forgot to include the NI Unionists in my Right-wing seats tally.

    So right-wing popular vote = 50.5% (Con, UKIP, DUP, UUP and TUV)
    Right-wing seats at Westminster = 341 (52.5% of 650)

    What are you basing your left/right on?

    I had assumed on Economic stance. But now you add in the very left wing socialist DUP. Not being very consistent now, are you.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,931
    Despite voting Lab on May 7th, I'm actually "supremely relaxed" that Cameron has an overall majority :)
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    That's a very offensive comment. You should be ashamed of it.
    There is much that your ilk should be ashamed of - including seeking to erode the right to strike to a level little more than theoretical and barely diffrerent to what is possible in totalitarian states. It is pure evil - and if you find the highlighting of that to be offensive it speaks volumes of your moral code - or lack there of.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Pulpstar said:

    @Richard_Nabavi Some others here have been using "Waffen Yes Yes" and "Yestapo" terms though. We must ensure sauce for goose and gander alike.

    These PB Tories don't like it up 'em.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited May 2015
    TCPoliticalBetting said:

    Dair said: " Only Blair's third term comes close to being as lacking in legitimacy. All other UK governments have held over 40% of the popular vote, the vast bulk of them well over 45%.

    Alternatively, not a single UK government had over 45% since 1966. Not Blair, not Thatcher.
    http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/percentvote.htm
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited May 2015
    News leaking on the FIFA case that someone called Chuck Blazer (?) wore a wire to help the feds build their case.

    He apparently copped a plea a couple of years back on corruption charges.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    Huzzah, does this mean we get to gas the undesirables ?
    Oh no - I think you will find that imposed human suffering leading to starvation and rotting on the streets is much the preferred option.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited May 2015
    justin124 said:

    There is much that your ilk should be ashamed of - including seeking to erode the right to strike to a level little more than theoretical and barely diffrerent to what is possible in totalitarian states. It is pure evil - and if you find the highlighting of that to be offensive it speaks volumes of your moral code - or lack there of.

    No, Justin, I am afraid that you are merely exposing your own, quite disgusting, lack of moral coherence. Gassing millions of people is 'pure evil'. A modest change to prevent innocent members of the public being held to ransom by small groups of public sector workers is, by no conceivable stretch of any sane imagination, 'pure evil', or comparable to totalitarian states.

    By all means oppose it, but don't get morally insane in the process.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,792
    justin124 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    Huzzah, does this mean we get to gas the undesirables ?
    Oh no - I think you will find that imposed human suffering leading to starvation and rotting on the streets is much the preferred option.
    That'll do me.

    Dave's been such a disappointment so far on that front.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    justin124 said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    That's a very offensive comment. You should be ashamed of it.
    There is much that your ilk should be ashamed of - including seeking to erode the right to strike to a level little more than theoretical and barely diffrerent to what is possible in totalitarian states. It is pure evil - and if you find the highlighting of that to be offensive it speaks volumes of your moral code - or lack there of.
    'pure evil'? You're having a laugh.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    TCPoliticalBetting said:

    Dair said: " Only Blair's third term comes close to being as lacking in legitimacy. All other UK governments have held over 40% of the popular vote, the vast bulk of them well over 45%.
    But that's almost beside the point. The point is that anyone claiming the Tories have a legitimate claim to impose their manifesto on the UK because it was voted for fall at this simple test. After all 45% of Scotland voted for Independence, a significantly higher level of support than the current UK government has."

    In 2007 the SNP formed the entire Scottish govt with just 32%/31% of the votes. So Dair must have protested about the illegitamacy of that bunch who came in with less than the current UK govt.

    In 2007 the SNP formed a MINORITY government and passed no legislation without the support of either Labour (rare) or at least two other parties. At any point during that government, they could have been brought down by the Tories, Liberals and Labour acting together. That's kind of the point. If you are miles from a plurality of votes you don't get a majority of seats.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited May 2015
    justin124 said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    That's a very offensive comment. You should be ashamed of it.
    There is much that your ilk should be ashamed of - including seeking to erode the right to strike to a level little more than theoretical and barely diffrerent to what is possible in totalitarian states. It is pure evil - and if you find the highlighting of that to be offensive it speaks volumes of your moral code - or lack there of.
    "Pure evil". Hilarious. Where do ISIS and Pol Pot lie on this bizarre scale?

    [Edit: Have I (well, we) been trolled? Good effort if so. If not, send for a private-sector nurse immediately.]
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Tim_B said:

    News leaking on the FIFA case that someone called Chuck Blazer (?) wore a wire to help the feds build their case.

    He apparently copped a plea a couple of years back on corruption charges.

    The Feds are after the head honcho at FIFA. That much is obvious.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,543
    justin124 said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    That's a very offensive comment. You should be ashamed of it.
    There is much that your ilk should be ashamed of - including seeking to erode the right to strike to a level little more than theoretical and barely diffrerent to what is possible in totalitarian states. It is pure evil - and if you find the highlighting of that to be offensive it speaks volumes of your moral code - or lack there of.
    I suppose that makes Conservative Future the British version of the Sturmabteilung.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    kle4 said:

    One might argue that any system that is unfair is illegitimate, but that I think is a more abstract point which, while not irrelevant, does not directly impact the actual illegitimacy of the system as it is, as much as I believe it should be changed. If the people have not elected in representatives to change that system, they have implicitly accepted the outcomes made possible by that system as legitimate.

    I agree that the Conservative government is legitimate, and my feeling is that a substantial majority of the voters accept its legitimacy.

    However, I do think it is still perfectly acceptable to challenge the government on the implementation of its manifesto commitments, and the response of "We've won a majority, thus you can't complain about us implementing our manifesto" doesn't wash. If critics of a particular policy can put together a coherent argument, which motivates public opposition to that policy, then I think there comes a point where the government has to give way, regardless of its legitimacy.

    One of the challenges of Opposition is identifying those areas of policy on which to try to fight to win a climbdown, where to fight only for amendments, and where not, all the time while trying to create a coherent narrative of what your alternative government would look like.

    No Opposition can simply turn round and say that the electorate has voted for the government's manifesto and they won't be opposing any of it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,792
    Blair resigns as peace envoy.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited May 2015
    Sean_F said:

    justin124 said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    That's a very offensive comment. You should be ashamed of it.
    There is much that your ilk should be ashamed of - including seeking to erode the right to strike to a level little more than theoretical and barely diffrerent to what is possible in totalitarian states. It is pure evil - and if you find the highlighting of that to be offensive it speaks volumes of your moral code - or lack there of.
    I suppose that makes Conservative Future the British version of the Sturmabteilung.
    British politics could do with more eagles on sticks, to be fair. And rallies - nice days out for the family.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I suspect @justin124 is on holiday from CiF and thinks he's doing missionary work. On behalf of the SWP?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,584
    OblitusSumMe said:

    kle4 said:

    One might argue that any system that is unfair is illegitimate, but that I think is a more abstract point which, while not irrelevant, does not directly impact the actual illegitimacy of the system as it is, as much as I believe it should be changed. If the people have not elected in representatives to change that system, they have implicitly accepted the outcomes made possible by that system as legitimate.

    I agree that the Conservative government is legitimate, and my feeling is that a substantial majority of the voters accept its legitimacy.

    However, I do think it is still perfectly acceptable to challenge the government on the implementation of its manifesto commitments, and the response of "We've won a majority, thus you can't complain about us implementing our manifesto" doesn't wash. If critics of a particular policy can put together a coherent argument, which motivates public opposition to that policy, then I think there comes a point where the government has to give way, regardless of its legitimacy.

    One of the challenges of Opposition is identifying those areas of policy on which to try to fight to win a climbdown, where to fight only for amendments, and where not, all the time while trying to create a coherent narrative of what your alternative government would look like.

    No Opposition can simply turn round and say that the electorate has voted for the government's manifesto and they won't be opposing any of it.
    Quite. It is the job of every MP to hold the Government to account even those of their own party. In the end it is MPs not Government's who should decide if legislation passes or falls.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,792
    Anorak said:

    Sean_F said:

    justin124 said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    That's a very offensive comment. You should be ashamed of it.
    There is much that your ilk should be ashamed of - including seeking to erode the right to strike to a level little more than theoretical and barely diffrerent to what is possible in totalitarian states. It is pure evil - and if you find the highlighting of that to be offensive it speaks volumes of your moral code - or lack there of.
    I suppose that makes Conservative Future the British version of the Sturmabteilung.
    British politics could do with more eagles on sticks, to be fair.
    Sounds painful.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited May 2015
    watford30 said:

    Tim_B said:

    News leaking on the FIFA case that someone called Chuck Blazer (?) wore a wire to help the feds build their case.

    He apparently copped a plea a couple of years back on corruption charges.

    The Feds are after the head honcho at FIFA. That much is obvious.
    They are after sorting out FIFA, a nonsensical, criminal and corrupt organization (and CONCACAF too, whatever that is). It's not about Blatter per se.
  • CreidekkiCreidekki Posts: 18
    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    You use that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,455
    Tim_B said:

    watford30 said:

    Tim_B said:

    News leaking on the FIFA case that someone called Chuck Blazer (?) wore a wire to help the feds build their case.

    He apparently copped a plea a couple of years back on corruption charges.

    The Feds are after the head honcho at FIFA. That much is obvious.
    They are after sorting out FIFA, a nonsensical, criminal and corrupt organization (and CONCACAF too, whatever that is). It's not about Blatter.
    Blatter will be next; they'll need to build their case first.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,792
    I'm definitely running my the SNP are the British Hamas piece this weekend now.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I'm in favour of more Ancient Romans running Dept of Transport myself.
    Anorak said:

    Sean_F said:

    justin124 said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    That's a very offensive comment. You should be ashamed of it.
    There is much that your ilk should be ashamed of - including seeking to erode the right to strike to a level little more than theoretical and barely diffrerent to what is possible in totalitarian states. It is pure evil - and if you find the highlighting of that to be offensive it speaks volumes of your moral code - or lack there of.
    I suppose that makes Conservative Future the British version of the Sturmabteilung.
    British politics could do with more eagles on sticks, to be fair. And rallies - nice days out for the family.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Blair resigns as peace envoy.

    Brings to an end that piece of dark humour that someone thought was funny.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Blair resigns as peace envoy.


    Well Labour will be needing a leader that can get them elected.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,898
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Blair resigns as peace envoy.

    He is now free to resume his role as war envoy.

    When I say free...for a few millions.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Stephen Daisley ‏@JournoStephen

    Harriet Harman's response to the #QueensSpeech is better than every speech Ed Miliband gave over five years, put together.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Dair said:

    TCPoliticalBetting said:

    Dair said: " Only Blair's third term comes close to being as lacking in legitimacy. All other UK governments have held over 40% of the popular vote, the vast bulk of them well over 45%.
    But that's almost beside the point. The point is that anyone claiming the Tories have a legitimate claim to impose their manifesto on the UK because it was voted for fall at this simple test. After all 45% of Scotland voted for Independence, a significantly higher level of support than the current UK government has."

    In 2007 the SNP formed the entire Scottish govt with just 32%/31% of the votes. So Dair must have protested about the illegitamacy of that bunch who came in with less than the current UK govt.

    In 2007 the SNP formed a MINORITY government and passed no legislation without the support of either Labour (rare) or at least two other parties.
    Was one of them the TOREEEEEEEEEEEES?

    Why so coy?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,931
    edited May 2015
    Dair said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    FPT

    Ooops forgot to include the NI Unionists in my Right-wing seats tally.

    So right-wing popular vote = 50.5% (Con, UKIP, DUP, UUP and TUV)
    Right-wing seats at Westminster = 341 (52.5% of 650)

    What are you basing your left/right on?

    I had assumed on Economic stance. But now you add in the very left wing socialist DUP. Not being very consistent now, are you.
    The DUP left-wing? You're having a laugh aren't you? Seriously??

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Unionist_Party

    "Ideology: National conservatism[1], Social conservatism[2], British unionism, Euroscepticism[3]
    "Political position: Right-wing[4][5]"
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Tim_B said:

    watford30 said:

    Tim_B said:

    News leaking on the FIFA case that someone called Chuck Blazer (?) wore a wire to help the feds build their case.

    He apparently copped a plea a couple of years back on corruption charges.

    The Feds are after the head honcho at FIFA. That much is obvious.
    They are after sorting out FIFA, a nonsensical, criminal and corrupt organization (and CONCACAF too, whatever that is). It's not about Blatter per se.
    A fish rots from the head.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,792
    Even Hattie taking the piss out of the Edstone
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,584
    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    That is a quite stunning example of spectacular bad taste and spectacular ignorance.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,391
    Pulpstar said:

    @Richard_Nabavi Some others here have been using "Waffen Yes Yes" and "Yestapo" terms though. We must ensure sauce for goose and gander alike.

    Or no sauce for either perhaps.
    OblitusSumMe said:

    kle4 said:

    One might argue that any system that is unfair is illegitimate, but that I think is a more abstract point which, while not irrelevant, does not directly impact the actual illegitimacy of the system as it is, as much as I believe it should be changed. If the people have not elected in representatives to change that system, they have implicitly accepted the outcomes made possible by that system as legitimate.

    I agree that the Conservative government is legitimate, and my feeling is that a substantial majority of the voters accept its legitimacy.

    However, I do think it is still perfectly acceptable to challenge the government on the implementation of its manifesto commitments, and the response of "We've won a majority, thus you can't complain about us implementing our manifesto" doesn't wash. If critics of a particular policy can put together a coherent argument, which motivates public opposition to that policy, then I think there comes a point where the government has to give way, regardless of its legitimacy.

    One of the challenges of Opposition is identifying those areas of policy on which to try to fight to win a climbdown, where to fight only for amendments, and where not, all the time while trying to create a coherent narrative of what your alternative government would look like.

    No Opposition can simply turn round and say that the electorate has voted for the government's manifesto and they won't be opposing any of it.
    That's totally reasonable. We need oppositions to challenge. Even to call unfair what they see as unfair. It was just the narrow question of legitimacy I don't think is as reasonable even if one thinks the system itself should be illegitimate or, as I do, that it should be changed.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Don’t be silly - we don't have the money to straighten all the roads. :lol:
    Plato said:

    I'm in favour of more Ancient Romans running Dept of Transport myself.

    Anorak said:

    Sean_F said:

    justin124 said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    That's a very offensive comment. You should be ashamed of it.
    There is much that your ilk should be ashamed of - including seeking to erode the right to strike to a level little more than theoretical and barely diffrerent to what is possible in totalitarian states. It is pure evil - and if you find the highlighting of that to be offensive it speaks volumes of your moral code - or lack there of.
    I suppose that makes Conservative Future the British version of the Sturmabteilung.
    British politics could do with more eagles on sticks, to be fair. And rallies - nice days out for the family.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    watford30 said:

    Tim_B said:

    watford30 said:

    Tim_B said:

    News leaking on the FIFA case that someone called Chuck Blazer (?) wore a wire to help the feds build their case.

    He apparently copped a plea a couple of years back on corruption charges.

    The Feds are after the head honcho at FIFA. That much is obvious.
    They are after sorting out FIFA, a nonsensical, criminal and corrupt organization (and CONCACAF too, whatever that is). It's not about Blatter per se.
    A fish rots from the head.
    The SNP is not involved :)
  • eekeek Posts: 31,304
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Tim_B said:

    watford30 said:

    Tim_B said:

    News leaking on the FIFA case that someone called Chuck Blazer (?) wore a wire to help the feds build their case.

    He apparently copped a plea a couple of years back on corruption charges.

    The Feds are after the head honcho at FIFA. That much is obvious.
    They are after sorting out FIFA, a nonsensical, criminal and corrupt organization (and CONCACAF too, whatever that is). It's not about Blatter.
    Blatter will be next; they'll need to build their case first.
    Just need the plea bargain...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,113
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    Dair said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    FPT

    Ooops forgot to include the NI Unionists in my Right-wing seats tally.

    So right-wing popular vote = 50.5% (Con, UKIP, DUP, UUP and TUV)
    Right-wing seats at Westminster = 341 (52.5% of 650)

    What are you basing your left/right on?

    I had assumed on Economic stance. But now you add in the very left wing socialist DUP. Not being very consistent now, are you.
    The DUP left-wing? You're having a laugh aren't you? Seriously??

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Unionist_Party

    "Ideology: National conservatism[1], Social conservatism[2], British unionism, Euroscepticism[3]
    "Political position: Right-wing[4][5]"
    Opposed the 'bedroom tax' - right or left wing is of secondary concern in NI politics though. They agree with the Shinners that more cash for NI is needed.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited May 2015
    Tim_B said:

    watford30 said:

    Tim_B said:

    watford30 said:

    Tim_B said:

    News leaking on the FIFA case that someone called Chuck Blazer (?) wore a wire to help the feds build their case.

    He apparently copped a plea a couple of years back on corruption charges.

    The Feds are after the head honcho at FIFA. That much is obvious.
    They are after sorting out FIFA, a nonsensical, criminal and corrupt organization (and CONCACAF too, whatever that is). It's not about Blatter per se.
    A fish rots from the head.
    The SNP is not involved :)
    Imagine Salmond standing for president of FIFA.

    Perhaps that's why Blair's resigned from peacemaking, to free himself up for duties to football?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited May 2015
    eek said:

    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Tim_B said:

    watford30 said:

    Tim_B said:

    News leaking on the FIFA case that someone called Chuck Blazer (?) wore a wire to help the feds build their case.

    He apparently copped a plea a couple of years back on corruption charges.

    The Feds are after the head honcho at FIFA. That much is obvious.
    They are after sorting out FIFA, a nonsensical, criminal and corrupt organization (and CONCACAF too, whatever that is). It's not about Blatter.
    Blatter will be next; they'll need to build their case first.
    Just need the plea bargain...
    They've had it for 18 months....Chuck Blazer
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,931
    Pulpstar said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    Dair said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    FPT

    Ooops forgot to include the NI Unionists in my Right-wing seats tally.

    So right-wing popular vote = 50.5% (Con, UKIP, DUP, UUP and TUV)
    Right-wing seats at Westminster = 341 (52.5% of 650)

    What are you basing your left/right on?

    I had assumed on Economic stance. But now you add in the very left wing socialist DUP. Not being very consistent now, are you.
    The DUP left-wing? You're having a laugh aren't you? Seriously??

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Unionist_Party

    "Ideology: National conservatism[1], Social conservatism[2], British unionism, Euroscepticism[3]
    "Political position: Right-wing[4][5]"
    Opposed the 'bedroom tax' - right or left wing is of secondary concern in NI politics though. They agree with the Shinners that more cash for NI is needed.
    I thought it was the SDLP and not the DUP that helped SF block the Welfare Bill this week?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    justin124 said:

    There is much that your ilk should be ashamed of - including seeking to erode the right to strike to a level little more than theoretical and barely diffrerent to what is possible in totalitarian states. It is pure evil - and if you find the highlighting of that to be offensive it speaks volumes of your moral code - or lack there of.

    No, Justin, I am afraid that you are merely exposing your own, quite disgusting, lack of moral coherence. Gassing millions of people is 'pure evil'. A modest change to prevent innocent members of the public being held to ransom by small groups of public sector workers is, by no conceivable stretch of any sane imagination, 'pure evil', or comparable to totalitarian states.

    By all means oppose it, but don't get morally insane in the process.
    I made no mention of gassing - which in the context of Nazi Germany did not occur until well into World War 2. Arbeit Macht Frei appeared in 1933 when Trade Union members were first incarcerated in concentration camps with other unwelcome dissidents such as Communists and Social Democrats. Effectively removing the Right to Strike represents a significant move in the direction of an illiberal Totalitarian state.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Pulpstar said:

    Opposed the 'bedroom tax' - right or left wing is of secondary concern in NI politics though. They agree with the Shinners that more cash for NI is needed.

    Is there any party in the world which is based in a particular region of any state and which doesn't think that region should get more cash?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,931
    Tim_B said:

    watford30 said:

    Tim_B said:

    News leaking on the FIFA case that someone called Chuck Blazer (?) wore a wire to help the feds build their case.

    He apparently copped a plea a couple of years back on corruption charges.

    The Feds are after the head honcho at FIFA. That much is obvious.
    They are after sorting out FIFA, a nonsensical, criminal and corrupt organization (and CONCACAF too, whatever that is). It's not about Blatter per se.
    CONCACAF is the regional soccer federation for North America, Central America and the Caribbean.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CONCACAF
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,543
    Anorak said:

    Sean_F said:

    justin124 said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    That's a very offensive comment. You should be ashamed of it.
    There is much that your ilk should be ashamed of - including seeking to erode the right to strike to a level little more than theoretical and barely diffrerent to what is possible in totalitarian states. It is pure evil - and if you find the highlighting of that to be offensive it speaks volumes of your moral code - or lack there of.
    I suppose that makes Conservative Future the British version of the Sturmabteilung.
    British politics could do with more eagles on sticks, to be fair. And rallies - nice days out for the family.
    "Comrades the Voices, of the Dead Battalions,
    Of those who died, to make this Country great,
    Join in our song, and are always with us in spirit,
    As we march on, to build the Tory State."
  • eekeek Posts: 31,304
    Tim_B said:

    eek said:

    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Tim_B said:

    watford30 said:

    Tim_B said:

    News leaking on the FIFA case that someone called Chuck Blazer (?) wore a wire to help the feds build their case.

    He apparently copped a plea a couple of years back on corruption charges.

    The Feds are after the head honcho at FIFA. That much is obvious.
    They are after sorting out FIFA, a nonsensical, criminal and corrupt organization (and CONCACAF too, whatever that is). It's not about Blatter.
    Blatter will be next; they'll need to build their case first.
    Just need the plea bargain...
    They've had it for 18 months....Chuck Blazer
    Clearly Chuck doesn't have enough to get Blatter. Hopefully one of the others do....
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Even Hattie taking the piss out of the Edstone

    Hattie joins a long line of MPs jumping on Ed's grave - If only they’d spoken up sooner?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Creidekki said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    You use that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.
    'Work makes you free'.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    eek said:

    Tim_B said:

    eek said:

    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Tim_B said:

    watford30 said:

    Tim_B said:

    News leaking on the FIFA case that someone called Chuck Blazer (?) wore a wire to help the feds build their case.

    He apparently copped a plea a couple of years back on corruption charges.

    The Feds are after the head honcho at FIFA. That much is obvious.
    They are after sorting out FIFA, a nonsensical, criminal and corrupt organization (and CONCACAF too, whatever that is). It's not about Blatter.
    Blatter will be next; they'll need to build their case first.
    Just need the plea bargain...
    They've had it for 18 months....Chuck Blazer
    Clearly Chuck doesn't have enough to get Blatter. Hopefully one of the others do....
    Blatter is clearly not Mr Clean - but he is a clever guy and has always avoided provable involvement. No reason to assume this is any different.

    What is fascinating is they intend to proceed with electing Blatter to a 5th term on Friday. It'll be interesting to see if they do go ahead with it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    justin124 said:

    Creidekki said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    You use that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.
    'Work makes you free'.
    There may be a little more to it than a literal translation......
  • CreidekkiCreidekki Posts: 18
    watford30 said:

    Tim_B said:

    watford30 said:

    Tim_B said:

    News leaking on the FIFA case that someone called Chuck Blazer (?) wore a wire to help the feds build their case.

    He apparently copped a plea a couple of years back on corruption charges.

    The Feds are after the head honcho at FIFA. That much is obvious.
    They are after sorting out FIFA, a nonsensical, criminal and corrupt organization (and CONCACAF too, whatever that is). It's not about Blatter per se.
    A fish rots from the head.
    I think you'll find they rot from the spleen. Or generally where the bacteria are concentrated - in the guts.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,898
    SimonStClare said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Even Hattie taking the piss out of the Edstone

    Hattie joins a long line of MPs jumping on Ed's grave
    The Ed Stone is a good springboard from which to do so ....

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,543
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    justin124 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    Huzzah, does this mean we get to gas the undesirables ?
    Oh no - I think you will find that imposed human suffering leading to starvation and rotting on the streets is much the preferred option.
    That'll do me.

    Dave's been such a disappointment so far on that front.
    Actually, it's just reminded me of the Tory Cabinet ministers and MPs singing Tomorrow Belongs to Me on Spitting Image.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    justin124 said:

    Creidekki said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    You use that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.
    'Work makes you free'.
    I would politely suggest that this is not a winning argument for you, and you may wish to change your approach, but it's up to you.
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Blair resigns as peace envoy.

    Long overdue. But really calling the job a 'peace envoy' is about as realistic and fair as referring to the so called "bedroom tax".
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,931
    CarlottaVance said:

    justin124 said:

    Creidekki said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    You use that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.
    'Work makes you free'.
    There may be a little more to it than a literal translation......
    The expression comes from the title of a novel by German philologist Lorenz Diefenbach, Arbeit macht frei: Erzählung von Lorenz Diefenbach (1873), in which gamblers and fraudsters find the path to virtue through labour.[2] The phrase was also used in French ("le travail rend libre!") by Auguste Forel, a Swiss entomologist, neuroanatomist and psychiatrist, in his "Fourmis de la Suisse" ["Ants of Switzerland"] (1920).[3] In 1922, the Deutsche Schulverein of Vienna, an ethnic nationalist "protective" organization of Germans within the Austrian empire, printed membership stamps with the phrase Arbeit macht frei. It was adopted in 1928 by the Weimar government as a slogan extolling the effects of their desired policy of large-scale public works programmes to end unemployment. This use of the phrase was continued by the Nazi Party when it came to power in 1933.
    [...]
    Considering the role played by the Auschwitz prisons during the Holocaust as well as the individual prisoner's knowledge that once they entered the camp freedom was not likely to be obtained by any means other than death, the cruel comedy of the slogan becomes strikingly clear. The psychological impact it wrought on those who passed through the gates of each of the camps where it was seen was incredibly powerful.[10]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeit_macht_frei
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Waiting for the DOJ press conference. There are 2 org charts on the stand. One headed 'sports marketing bribery schemes', the other 'The Enterprise' featuring FIFA, CONCACAF etc.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    justin124 said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    That's a very offensive comment. You should be ashamed of it.
    There is much that your ilk should be ashamed of - including seeking to erode the right to strike to a level little more than theoretical and barely diffrerent to what is possible in totalitarian states. It is pure evil - and if you find the highlighting of that to be offensive it speaks volumes of your moral code - or lack there of.
    You won't be back in power until you get rid of this ridiculous "evil Tories" nonsense.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,543
    Flightpathl said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Blair resigns as peace envoy.

    Long overdue. But really calling the job a 'peace envoy' is about as realistic and fair as referring to the so called "bedroom tax".
    I did wonder if he'd be captured by Islamic State, and have his head chopped off in a video.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    Godwin!
    No-one mentioned Nazis, that's just a reference to IDS.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited May 2015
    NY Attorney General commentating on the FIFA scandal is called Loretta Lynch. #ominous
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    I must say I have long been hoping to hear Dennis Skinner or Jeremy Corbyn throw the phrase at the Tories in the House of Commons.
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    justin124 said:

    There is much that your ilk should be ashamed of - including seeking to erode the right to strike to a level little more than theoretical and barely diffrerent to what is possible in totalitarian states. It is pure evil - and if you find the highlighting of that to be offensive it speaks volumes of your moral code - or lack there of.

    No, Justin, I am afraid that you are merely exposing your own, quite disgusting, lack of moral coherence. Gassing millions of people is 'pure evil'. A modest change to prevent innocent members of the public being held to ransom by small groups of public sector workers is, by no conceivable stretch of any sane imagination, 'pure evil', or comparable to totalitarian states.

    By all means oppose it, but don't get morally insane in the process.
    Justin is a prize knobend. A cautionary example of what a Labour/SNP Coalition would have looked like.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,113
    Legal highs may be being outlawed, but that about research chemicals and herbal blends ?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,792
    Sean_F said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    justin124 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    Huzzah, does this mean we get to gas the undesirables ?
    Oh no - I think you will find that imposed human suffering leading to starvation and rotting on the streets is much the preferred option.
    That'll do me.

    Dave's been such a disappointment so far on that front.
    Actually, it's just reminded me of the Tory Cabinet ministers and MPs singing Tomorrow Belongs to Me on Spitting Image.
    Time for Dave to invade Poland.

    I don't the UK has the space for all these Arbeit Macht Frei camps.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    That's a very offensive comment. You should be ashamed of it.
    Yeah, because no PB Tory has ever suggested the SNP were Nazis.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    eek said:


    Blatter will be next; they'll need to build their case first.

    Just need the plea bargain...

    They've had it for 18 months....Chuck Blazer

    Clearly Chuck doesn't have enough to get Blatter. Hopefully one of the others do....

    Is US law so flexible they can arrest anyone anywhere, or has Blatter actually (allegedly) done something in the USA that they believe they can prosecute?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,974
    Creidekki said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    You use that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.
    what does it mean then
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,931
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Sean_F said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    justin124 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    Huzzah, does this mean we get to gas the undesirables ?
    Oh no - I think you will find that imposed human suffering leading to starvation and rotting on the streets is much the preferred option.
    That'll do me.

    Dave's been such a disappointment so far on that front.
    Actually, it's just reminded me of the Tory Cabinet ministers and MPs singing Tomorrow Belongs to Me on Spitting Image.
    Time for Dave to invade Poland.

    I don't the UK has the space for all these Arbeit Macht Frei camps.
    Or maybe he could liberate Ukraine from the Russians and enforce the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited May 2015
    dugarbandier said:

    eek said:


    Blatter will be next; they'll need to build their case first.

    Just need the plea bargain...
    They've had it for 18 months....Chuck Blazer

    Clearly Chuck doesn't have enough to get Blatter. Hopefully one of the others do....

    Is US law so flexible they can arrest anyone anywhere, or has Blatter actually (allegedly) done something in the USA that they believe they can prosecute?

    Firstly, no it isn't, and secondly so far this is nothing to do with Blatter, even though so far there are apparently 47 indictments.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited May 2015
    dugarbandier said:

    eek said:


    Blatter will be next; they'll need to build their case first.

    Just need the plea bargain...
    They've had it for 18 months....Chuck Blazer

    Clearly Chuck doesn't have enough to get Blatter. Hopefully one of the others do....

    Is US law so flexible they can arrest anyone anywhere, or has Blatter actually (allegedly) done something in the USA that they believe they can prosecute?



    Uncle Sam gets a bit twitchy when large scale corruption is undertaken using Dollars as the favoured currency.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,113
    dugarbandier said:


    Is US law so flexible they can arrest anyone anywhere, or has Blatter actually (allegedly) done something in the USA that they believe they can prosecute?

    US law has a de facto enourmous reach.

    See Assange, O'Dwyer, Natwest three and so forth
  • megalomaniacs4umegalomaniacs4u Posts: 327
    Plato said:

    I'm in favour of more Ancient Romans running Dept of Transport myself.

    Anorak said:

    Sean_F said:

    justin124 said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    That's a very offensive comment. You should be ashamed of it.
    There is much that your ilk should be ashamed of - including seeking to erode the right to strike to a level little more than theoretical and barely diffrerent to what is possible in totalitarian states. It is pure evil - and if you find the highlighting of that to be offensive it speaks volumes of your moral code - or lack there of.
    I suppose that makes Conservative Future the British version of the Sturmabteilung.
    British politics could do with more eagles on sticks, to be fair. And rallies - nice days out for the family.
    i want my owl...
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    Sean_F said:

    Flightpathl said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Blair resigns as peace envoy.

    Long overdue. But really calling the job a 'peace envoy' is about as realistic and fair as referring to the so called "bedroom tax".
    I did wonder if he'd be captured by Islamic State, and have his head chopped off in a video.
    So it is true then.... some things are about as funny as a bag of sick.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    press conference starting.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,974
    CarlottaVance said:

    justin124 said:

    Creidekki said:

    justin124 said:

    The Queens Speech rather suggests that the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party is very much in the ascendancy.

    You use that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.
    'Work makes you free'.
    There may be a little more to it than a literal translation......
    Go on Toom tell us the hidden meaning , give it the Tory angle.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    Pulpstar said:


    US law has a de facto enourmous reach.

    See Assange, O'Dwyer, Natwest three and so forth

    bin laden (OK, maybe that wasn't strictly legal)
This discussion has been closed.

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