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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If teachers are as hostile to the Tories as they were 16 months ago then that could have an impact that is not being picked up by standard polling
During one of the breaks at the big LSE GE forecasting conference on Friday I was asked for suggestions of ideas for interesting polling that could tell us more than what we see in standard surveys or constituency polling. After pondering this over the weekend I think that a repetition of the surveys above might give us a useful insight.
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First ..... again!0
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No.
Teachers are voters like any other, they will be picked up in proportion to their influence in the electorate by random sampling. You might as well say nurses, social workers or other likely left leaning public sector workers not liking the government will make a difference, they will, but not more nor less than any other voter, and their vote is no more "hidden" than any other voter. I dare say you could make similar suggestions for bankers for the Tories.0 -
Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).0
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I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.0
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That is the point it wasn't.peter_from_putney said:Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).
Just look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.
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It's a good thing their pupils don't get the vote, then.0
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In 2010 most doctors voted Conservative (according to Pulse the GP magazine). I have not seen this years figures yet, but public sector workers such as NHS staff, teachers and police are all significant blocks of voters. Remember when police were very Tory? Not so much any more.Indigo said:No.
Teachers are voters like any other, they will be picked up in proportion to their influence in the electorate by random sampling. You might as well say nurses, social workers or other likely left leaning public sector workers not liking the government will make a difference, they will, but not more nor less than any other voter, and their vote is no more "hidden" than any other voter. I dare say you could make similar suggestions for bankers for the Tories.
Public sector workers are aware that money is tight, but Mike is right in pointing out that the denigration by cabinet members is foolish.
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32 vs 33?MikeSmithson said:
look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.peter_from_putney said:Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).
Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.
I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.
5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....0 -
Sorry Mike, but I would take a lot of convinvincing ..... Guardian strewn common rooms, etc, it's simply in Teachers' DNA. Rather like working for the BBC or in NHS management, Local Government bureaucracy, etc, etc. Of course there are exceptions, but not that many.MikeSmithson said:
That is the point it wasn't.peter_from_putney said:Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).
Just look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.
To some extent we all vote with our wallet and the one way in which the Tories may be able to garner additional support is by taking middle earners out of the 40% higher rate tax band which is catching an ever increasing number and will certainly continue to do so should Labour win on 7 May.0 -
One factor worth noting from today, with parliament being dissolved, is that OFCOM rules apply.
There'll be significantly more coverage for the LibDems and Ukip.0 -
I am not saying there hasn't been a move of public sector workers to Labour, I am saying it isn't "hidden", it will be picked up in the polls like any other move in any other group, that's the whole point about random sampling, unless there is any reason to suspect that teachers disproportionately don't answer polls.foxinsoxuk said:
In 2010 most doctors voted Conservative (according to Pulse the GP magazine). I have not seen this years figures yet, but public sector workers such as NHS staff, teachers and police are all significant blocks of voters. Remember when police were very Tory? Not so much any more.Indigo said:No.
Teachers are voters like any other, they will be picked up in proportion to their influence in the electorate by random sampling. You might as well say nurses, social workers or other likely left leaning public sector workers not liking the government will make a difference, they will, but not more nor less than any other voter, and their vote is no more "hidden" than any other voter. I dare say you could make similar suggestions for bankers for the Tories.
Public sector workers are aware that money is tight, but Mike is right in pointing out that the denigration by cabinet members is foolish.0 -
This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.felix said:I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.
The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.
The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.0 -
Beautiful and moody sunrise this morning.
At bit like Mrs JackW .... she has toothache and an appointment with the driller killer looms.
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I'm stunned to discover there are almost 500,000 teachers in England and Wales. That's around 1 person in 100 of voting age being a teacher. If we assume that teachers are more likely to vote than the general population, this change could be worth somewhere around 0.4% in the polls.
It's not to be discounted, that's a serious number0 -
plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers0
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Is that a polite way of saying that some teachers may indoctrinate their students?asjohnstone said:plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers
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But why wouldn't we see that in the polls now, they will be people with high likelihood to vote numbers already, and will have influenced people already.asjohnstone said:plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers
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Do we have actual voting figures for 2010? My understanding is that Mandelson's campaign was very successful at scaring the bejesus out of public sector workers generally threatening them with an apocalypse.
One of the interesting factors of this incredibly unpredictable campaign is how the balance has changed since 2010. There are in round terms nearly 1m fewer public sector workers than there were then and nearly 3m more private sector workers. A simplistic analysis suggests this should favour the Tories with a greater proportion of the electorate exposed to the realities of the market but there are undoubtedly a series of counter movements.
Obvious examples are those previously employed in the public sector and resentful of having to work harder for less, those getting the sharp end of the market with ZHCs and lousy employers taking advantage, those who used to get help from those million public sector employees who now don't. etc etc.
Like everything else in this election it is hard to read but I would be very surprised if those still in the public sector, who have had a pretty rough time of it these last 5 years, are more Labour inclined than they were in 2010. The fact that the Tories are still clearly intending further public sector cuts will once again make them apprehensive.0 -
No, because their students can't vote. However parents may take into account the views of education professionals (I wouldn't, as a parent if the teaching unions oppose something that's a sure sign it's a good idea)peter_from_putney said:
Is that a polite way of saying that some teachers may indoctrinate their students?asjohnstone said:plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers
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We probably already do in terms of raw teachers VI numbers, the amplification effect probably comes laterIndigo said:
But why wouldn't we see that in the polls now, they will be people with high likelihood to vote numbers already, and will have influenced people already.asjohnstone said:plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers
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I'd be very surprised if more teachers voted Tory in 2010GE than Labour, particularly given free schools and academies were a high-profile Tory policy at the time.
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Im. Sure I posted here half an hour ago - scratches head.0
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" The fact that the Tories are still clearly intending further public sector cuts will once again make them apprehensive."
What is staggering is that there are still further meaningful cuts to be made, having already reduced the number emplyed in the Public Sector by more than one million.
In God's name, just what did they all do all day ..... it's difficult to notice they've gone, other than in our largely frozen Council Tax bills (or actually reduced bills for those of us in living in the London Borough of Wandsworth).0 -
"New polling could be very enlightening."
Indeed – 16 months is a long time in politics.
So, are we expecting another poll commissioned by the NUT shortly or not?
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The entire leftie biased education system indoctrinates the students. Students spend a decade or more in schools with their free speech suppressed in the name of various trendy nostrums about not offending other people, such that by the time they get to university we see in polls that students would much rather be "not offended" than free to voice their opinions. Combine that with the input from SRE classes, civics classes, values education, where students grades are dependent on regurgitating the current right-on views year after year, and are we surprised that what you get as a product in a Labour or Green voter. Its only after repeatedly being mugged by real life that some of them become Tories, those that work in the public sector get more protection from real life and tend to stay on the left.asjohnstone said:
No, because their students can't vote. However parents may take into account the views of education professionals (I wouldn't, as a parent if the teaching unions oppose something that's a sure sign it's a good idea)peter_from_putney said:
Is that a polite way of saying that some teachers may indoctrinate their students?asjohnstone said:plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers
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Don't worry Peter. Lucy is on the case and has identified anything up to a further £1bn of savings to cut the deficit. Things can only get better.peter_from_putney said:" The fact that the Tories are still clearly intending further public sector cuts will once again make them apprehensive."
What is staggering is that there are still further meaningful cuts to be made, having already reduced the number emplyed in the Public Sector by more than one million.
In God's name, just what did they all do all day ..... it's difficult to notice they've gone, other than in our largely frozen Council Tax bills (or actually reduced bills for those of us in living in the London Borough of Wandsworth).
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Post of the year, perhaps of the decade. Total rubbish, of course; but clearly heartfelt. Marvellous stuff.Indigo said:
The entire leftie biased education system indoctrinates the students. Students spend a decade or more in schools with their free speech suppressed in the name of various trendy nostrums about not offending other people, such that by the time they get to university we see in polls that students would much rather be "not offended" than free to voice their opinions. Combine that with the input from SRE classes, civics classes, values education, where students grades are dependent on regurgitating the current right-on views year after year, and are we surprised that what you get as a product in a Labour or Green voter. Its only after repeatedly being mugged by real life that some of them become Tories, those that work in the public sector get more protection from real life and tend to stay on the left.asjohnstone said:
No, because their students can't vote. However parents may take into account the views of education professionals (I wouldn't, as a parent if the teaching unions oppose something that's a sure sign it's a good idea)peter_from_putney said:
Is that a polite way of saying that some teachers may indoctrinate their students?asjohnstone said:plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers
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A much smaller army is one manifestation; as is much greater spending on agency staff. And, of course, many of the jobs have simply been transferred into the private sector.peter_from_putney said:" The fact that the Tories are still clearly intending further public sector cuts will once again make them apprehensive."
What is staggering is that there are still further meaningful cuts to be made, having already reduced the number emplyed in the Public Sector by more than one million.
In God's name, just what did they all do all day ..... it's difficult to notice they've gone, other than in our largely frozen Council Tax bills (or actually reduced bills for those of us in living in the London Borough of Wandsworth).
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Along with populous, I believe his Lordship will also be releasing his latest poll today at 4pm?
And I've just read YouGov will poll 7 days a week after Easter - Yippee!
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Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.GeoffM said:
This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.felix said:I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.
The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.
The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.
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http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9376232/free-speech-is-so-last-century-todays-students-want-the-right-to-be-comfortable/SouthamObserver said:
Post of the year, perhaps of the decade. Total rubbish, of course; but clearly heartfelt. Marvellous stuff.Indigo said:
The entire leftie biased education system indoctrinates the students. Students spend a decade or more in schools with their free speech suppressed in the name of various trendy nostrums about not offending other people, such that by the time they get to university we see in polls that students would much rather be "not offended" than free to voice their opinions. Combine that with the input from SRE classes, civics classes, values education, where students grades are dependent on regurgitating the current right-on views year after year, and are we surprised that what you get as a product in a Labour or Green voter. Its only after repeatedly being mugged by real life that some of them become Tories, those that work in the public sector get more protection from real life and tend to stay on the left.asjohnstone said:
No, because their students can't vote. However parents may take into account the views of education professionals (I wouldn't, as a parent if the teaching unions oppose something that's a sure sign it's a good idea)peter_from_putney said:
Is that a polite way of saying that some teachers may indoctrinate their students?asjohnstone said:plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers
If your go-to image of a student is someone who’s free-spirited and open-minded, who loves having a pop at orthodoxies, then you urgently need to update your mind’s picture bank. Students are now pretty much the opposite of that. It’s hard to think of any other section of society that has undergone as epic a transformation as students have. From freewheelin’ to ban-happy, from askers of awkward questions to suppressors of offensive speech, in the space of a generation.
Not to mention all the "safe space" policies covering large swathes of modern universitiesA place where anyone can relax and be fully self-expressed, without fear of being made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcome, or unsafe on account of biological sex, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, cultural background, age, or physical or mental ability; a place where the rules guard each person's self-respect and dignity and strongly encourage everyone to respect others
aka. the right not to be offended.0 -
Eh? I wasn't actually referring to the students in question having reached voting age.asjohnstone said:
No, because their students can't vote. However parents may take into account the views of education professionals (I wouldn't, as a parent if the teaching unions oppose something that's a sure sign it's a good idea)peter_from_putney said:
Is that a polite way of saying that some teachers may indoctrinate their students?asjohnstone said:plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers
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Even if they only provide a directly equivalent education, and the jury is out on that given they have only been going a few years, the ability to drastically reduce the headcount of the Department of Education, and dramatically downsize LEAs would save a lot of public money, and leave the schools free to respond to the needs of their customers, the parents. When I went to school the UK was around 2nd or 3rd in Maths and English, its now around 26th, sitting around with our fingers in our ears wishing it to get better isn't working.SouthamObserver said:
Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.GeoffM said:
This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.felix said:I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.
The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.
The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.0 -
plenty of evidence that comprehensives provide a crap educationSouthamObserver said:
Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.GeoffM said:
This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.felix said:I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.
The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.
The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.0 -
O/T
Looking at the time stamp on the post, it looks like somebody's server hasn't changed to BST
Edit - oops I wasn't signed in :embarrassed smilie:0 -
Indeed. Complete and utter drivel. Anyone would think parents and family had no impact on the way a child's thinking and character is formed.SouthamObserver said:
Post of the year, perhaps of the decade. Total rubbish, of course; but clearly heartfelt. Marvellous stuff.Indigo said:
The entire leftie biased education system indoctrinates the students. Students spend a decade or more in schools with their free speech suppressed in the name of various trendy nostrums about not offending other people, such that by the time they get to university we see in polls that students would much rather be "not offended" than free to voice their opinions. Combine that with the input from SRE classes, civics classes, values education, where students grades are dependent on regurgitating the current right-on views year after year, and are we surprised that what you get as a product in a Labour or Green voter. Its only after repeatedly being mugged by real life that some of them become Tories, those that work in the public sector get more protection from real life and tend to stay on the left.asjohnstone said:
No, because their students can't vote. However parents may take into account the views of education professionals (I wouldn't, as a parent if the teaching unions oppose something that's a sure sign it's a good idea)peter_from_putney said:
Is that a polite way of saying that some teachers may indoctrinate their students?asjohnstone said:plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers
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There is plenty of evidence that some do. And plenty of evidence that many others don't.SquareRoot said:
plenty of evidence that comprehensives provide a crap educationSouthamObserver said:
Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.GeoffM said:
This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.felix said:I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.
The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.
The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.
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Anyway, I see Cameron is to say that voters are being offered a stark choice between him and Ed. As ever, the PR goon oversells himself. This isn't a stark choice. It's a completely dismal one.0
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http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9376232/free-speech-is-so-last-century-todays-students-want-the-right-to-be-comfortable/If your go-to image of a student is someone who’s free-spirited and open-minded, who loves having a pop at orthodoxies, then you urgently need to update your mind’s picture bank. Students are now pretty much the opposite of that. It’s hard to think of any other section of society that has undergone as epic a transformation as students have. From freewheelin’ to ban-happy, from askers of awkward questions to suppressors of offensive speech, in the space of a generation.
Not to mention all the "safe space" policies covering large swathes of modern universitiesA place where anyone can relax and be fully self-expressed, without fear of being made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcome, or unsafe on account of biological sex, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, cultural background, age, or physical or mental ability; a place where the rules guard each person's self-respect and dignity and strongly encourage everyone to respect others
aka. the right not to be offended.
Ah, a Brendan O'Neill article in the Spectator proves your point. I see :-D.
It might be worth reflecting on the fact that his string of anecdotes begins with some taken from Oxford and Cambridge universities, where about 40% of students went to private schools.
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PB lefties deny leftie cultural hegemony in the education system... someone pass that bear the toilet paper.Monksfield said:
Indeed. Complete and utter drivel. Anyone would think parents and family had no impact on the way a child's thinking and character is formed.SouthamObserver said:
Post of the year, perhaps of the decade. Total rubbish, of course; but clearly heartfelt. Marvellous stuff.Indigo said:
The entire leftie biased education system indoctrinates the students. Students spend a decade or more in schools with their free speech suppressed in the name of various trendy nostrums about not offending other people, such that by the time they get to university we see in polls that students would much rather be "not offended" than free to voice their opinions. Combine that with the input from SRE classes, civics classes, values education, where students grades are dependent on regurgitating the current right-on views year after year, and are we surprised that what you get as a product in a Labour or Green voter. Its only after repeatedly being mugged by real life that some of them become Tories, those that work in the public sector get more protection from real life and tend to stay on the left.asjohnstone said:
No, because their students can't vote. However parents may take into account the views of education professionals (I wouldn't, as a parent if the teaching unions oppose something that's a sure sign it's a good idea)peter_from_putney said:
Is that a polite way of saying that some teachers may indoctrinate their students?asjohnstone said:plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers
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Plenty of evidence that Schools don't matter all that much, the best predictor of educational outcome is the parents levels of education and expectation.0
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Because others have got “better" doesn’t necessarily mean that we have got “worse”. To quote the old example, becuase a lot more people are climbing Everest in 2014 than in 1954 doesn’t mean that Everest has got lower.Indigo said:
Even if they only provide a directly equivalent education, and the jury is out on that given they have only been going a few years, the ability to drastically reduce the headcount of the Department of Education, and dramatically downsize LEAs would save a lot of public money, and leave the schools free to respond to the needs of their customers, the parents. When I went to school the UK was around 2nd or 3rd in Maths and English, its now around 26th, sitting around with our fingers in our ears wishing it to get better isn't working.SouthamObserver said:
Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.GeoffM said:
This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.felix said:I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.
The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.
The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.
My teacher granddaughter is voting Tory. However, that’s because she’s in Castle Point and doesn’t want UKIP to get in.0 -
When you went to school there was no internationally recognised means to compare education performance in different countries.Indigo said:
Even if they only provide a directly equivalent education, and the jury is out on that given they have only been going a few years, the ability to drastically reduce the headcount of the Department of Education, and dramatically downsize LEAs would save a lot of public money, and leave the schools free to respond to the needs of their customers, the parents. When I went to school the UK was around 2nd or 3rd in Maths and English, its now around 26th, sitting around with our fingers in our ears wishing it to get better isn't working.SouthamObserver said:
Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.GeoffM said:
This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.felix said:I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.
The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.
The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.0 -
The second quote was from wikipedia article of safe spaces. Do you deny that modern universities are heavily covered by safe space policies ? Do you deny the function of the said safe spaces is to provide places where people can feel "comfortable" by virtual of denying other people free speech ?SouthamObserver said:
Ah, a Brendan O'Neill article in the Spectator proves your point. I see :-D.
It might be worth reflecting on the fact that his string of anecdotes begins with some taken from Oxford and Cambridge universities, where about 40% of students went to private schools.
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Interesting that Lord Ashcroft chose to flag up the fact, so soon after the release of the ComRes numbers last night, that his own latest polling results would be out at 4.00pm today.SimonStClare said:Along with populous, I believe his Lordship will also be releasing his latest poll today at 4pm?
And I've just read YouGov will poll 7 days a week after Easter - Yippee!
Unfortunately, I doubt for one second that he was giving us any kind of a steer as to what these might indicate.0 -
You are wibbling. If you go back to even 2000 we were 9th, at the end of Labour in 2008 we were 28th, Gove has got us back to 26th.SouthamObserver said:
When you went to school there was no internationally recognised means to compare education performance in different countries.Indigo said:
Even if they only provide a directly equivalent education, and the jury is out on that given they have only been going a few years, the ability to drastically reduce the headcount of the Department of Education, and dramatically downsize LEAs would save a lot of public money, and leave the schools free to respond to the needs of their customers, the parents. When I went to school the UK was around 2nd or 3rd in Maths and English, its now around 26th, sitting around with our fingers in our ears wishing it to get better isn't working.SouthamObserver said:
Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.GeoffM said:
This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.felix said:I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.
The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.
The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.0 -
I have no idea. Neither am I sure what it has got to do with primary and secondary school teachers - the targets of your original, baseless rant.Indigo said:
The second quote was from wikipedia article of safe spaces. Do you deny that modern universities are heavily covered by safe space policies ? Do you deny the function of the said safe spaces is to provide places where people can feel "comfortable" by virtual of denying other people free speech ?SouthamObserver said:
Ah, a Brendan O'Neill article in the Spectator proves your point. I see :-D.
It might be worth reflecting on the fact that his string of anecdotes begins with some taken from Oxford and Cambridge universities, where about 40% of students went to private schools.
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It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....0
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It seems that going forward we are set to get at least one set of polling results every day, increasing to nearly two per day in the final two weeks of the campaign - Sunil is going to be a busy boy.0
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Why is Ed advertising the Tory promise of a referendum on the EU? The only bad thing about the policy is that not enough people know about it0
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You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?Monksfield said:It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....
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Morning all, did either BBC Breakfast or SKY New mention the ComRes poll? I didn't see or hear either doing so. Compare and contrast with yesterday where both went into full orgasm mode on the YouGov poll complete with Joe Twyman ramping up his poll with little caveat.0
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His Lordship is a mischievous bugger who rarely gives anything away with his tweets - he probably logs on to PB immediately after their release just for a giggle.peter_from_putney said:
Interesting that Lord Ashcroft chose to flag up the fact, so soon after the release of the ComRes numbers last night, that his own latest polling results would be out at 4.00pm today.SimonStClare said:Along with populous, I believe his Lordship will also be releasing his latest poll today at 4pm?
And I've just read YouGov will poll 7 days a week after Easter - Yippee!
Unfortunately, I doubt for one second that he was giving us any kind of a steer as to what these might indicate.
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" the Thatcherite coalition"
A fundamentally flawed form of words surely?0 -
Nothing like shifting your ground. You were just criticising the Spectator article about Universities which I linked, you were quite happy talking about non-primary/secondary school education then, until it get a bit awkward.SouthamObserver said:
I have no idea. Neither am I sure what it has got to do with primary and secondary school teachers - the targets of your original, baseless rant.Indigo said:
The second quote was from wikipedia article of safe spaces. Do you deny that modern universities are heavily covered by safe space policies ? Do you deny the function of the said safe spaces is to provide places where people can feel "comfortable" by virtual of denying other people free speech ?SouthamObserver said:
Ah, a Brendan O'Neill article in the Spectator proves your point. I see :-D.
It might be worth reflecting on the fact that his string of anecdotes begins with some taken from Oxford and Cambridge universities, where about 40% of students went to private schools.0 -
I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!CarlottaVance said:
32 vs 33?MikeSmithson said:
look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.peter_from_putney said:Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).
Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.
I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.
5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....0 -
Interesting piece on inequality from the USA.
"recent trends in both capital wealth and income are driven almost entirely by housing"
Rather than taxing businesses and wealthy investors, “policy-makers should deal with the planning regulations and NIMBYism that inhibit housebuilding and which allow homeowners to capture super-normal returns on their investments.
https://medium.com/the-ferenstein-wire/a-26-year-old-mit-graduate-is-turning-heads-over-his-theory-that-income-inequality-is-actually-2a3b423e0c
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Have to ask is Lucy Powell a Tory plant? She has to be the most intellectually deficient Labour MP I have heard in years. Watched her interviewed on 2 channels yesterday. She has no idea about numbers and cannot count. Andrew Neil chewed her up on Sunday Politics and did all but call her a thick bint.0
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Another teacher that does not want to give bright working class kids a chance to get on, how sad but predictable.OldKingCole said:
Because others have got “better" doesn’t necessarily mean that we have got “worse”. To quote the old example, becuase a lot more people are climbing Everest in 2014 than in 1954 doesn’t mean that Everest has got lower.Indigo said:
Even if they only provide a directly equivalent education, and the jury is out on that given they have only been going a few years, the ability to drastically reduce the headcount of the Department of Education, and dramatically downsize LEAs would save a lot of public money, and leave the schools free to respond to the needs of their customers, the parents. When I went to school the UK was around 2nd or 3rd in Maths and English, its now around 26th, sitting around with our fingers in our ears wishing it to get better isn't working.SouthamObserver said:
Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.GeoffM said:
This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.felix said:I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.
The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.
The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.
My teacher granddaughter is voting Tory. However, that’s because she’s in Castle Point and doesn’t want UKIP to get in.0 -
Lucy Powell projects as a shouty, trade union style activist or the member of a polytechnic picket line.
We'll cut the deficit by cutting ministerial pay... (chuckle, guffaw)
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His polls make me nervous.peter_from_putney said:
Interesting that Lord Ashcroft chose to flag up the fact, so soon after the release of the ComRes numbers last night, that his own latest polling results would be out at 4.00pm today.SimonStClare said:Along with populous, I believe his Lordship will also be releasing his latest poll today at 4pm?
And I've just read YouGov will poll 7 days a week after Easter - Yippee!
Unfortunately, I doubt for one second that he was giving us any kind of a steer as to what these might indicate.
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A draw, a Labour lead and a Tory lead?peter_from_putney said:
Interesting that Lord Ashcroft chose to flag up the fact, so soon after the release of the ComRes numbers last night, that his own latest polling results would be out at 4.00pm today.SimonStClare said:Along with populous, I believe his Lordship will also be releasing his latest poll today at 4pm?
And I've just read YouGov will poll 7 days a week after Easter - Yippee!
Unfortunately, I doubt for one second that he was giving us any kind of a steer as to what these might indicate.
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We'll need to find the wood amongst the trees.peter_from_putney said:It seems that going forward we are set to get at least one set of polling results every day, increasing to nearly two per day in the final two weeks of the campaign - Sunil is going to be a busy boy.
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Indigo said:
You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?Monksfield said:It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....
The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.Millsy said:
I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!CarlottaVance said:
32 vs 33?MikeSmithson said:
look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.peter_from_putney said:Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).
Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.
I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.
5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....0 -
must be all that coalition taking the low paid out of the tax system. Can't see why putting them back in is better.Monksfield said:Indigo said:
You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?Monksfield said:It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....
The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.Millsy said:
I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!CarlottaVance said:
32 vs 33?MikeSmithson said:
look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.peter_from_putney said:Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).
Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.
I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.
5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....0 -
I see Martin Baxter has made a dramatic adjustment to his seat predictions since mid March. Labour still ahead but down 20 seats and Tories within touching distance.
No doubt Populus will have a healthy Labour lead as per normal today and goodness knows what the noble LA will have with his trampoline poll at 4pm.0 -
Good morning, everyone.
Not sure why there's such a focus on teachers' voting intentions compared to other occupations.0 -
However, as a precautionary measure those at the top of Labour always tend to go " across town" to avoid the ones in their own catchment areas.SouthamObserver said:
There is plenty of evidence that some do. And plenty of evidence that many others don't.SquareRoot said:
plenty of evidence that comprehensives provide a crap educationSouthamObserver said:
Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.GeoffM said:
This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.felix said:I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.
The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.
The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.
Mmmmmm.........0 -
@BBCNormanS: Labour's @ChukaUmunna disputes @ifs claim Labour will still be running £30 billion deficit by end of next Parliament @BBCr4today
@BBCNormanS: Labour's @ChukaUmunna refuses to put figure on likely capital borrowing and size of deficit under Labour by 2020 @bbcr4today0 -
UKIP giving working class children a chance! How, in an isolated, low wage country will that be possible?nigel4england said:
Another teacher that does not want to give bright working class kids a chance to get on, how sad but predictable.OldKingCole said:
Because others have got “better" doesn’t necessarily mean that we have got “worse”. To quote the old example, becuase a lot more people are climbing Everest in 2014 than in 1954 doesn’t mean that Everest has got lower.Indigo said:
Even if they only provide a directly equivalent education, and the jury is out on that given they have only been going a few years, the ability to drastically reduce the headcount of the Department of Education, and dramatically downsize LEAs would save a lot of public money, and leave the schools free to respond to the needs of their customers, the parents. When I went to school the UK was around 2nd or 3rd in Maths and English, its now around 26th, sitting around with our fingers in our ears wishing it to get better isn't working.SouthamObserver said:
Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.GeoffM said:
This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.felix said:I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.
The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.
The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.
My teacher granddaughter is voting Tory. However, that’s because she’s in Castle Point and doesn’t want UKIP to get in.0 -
King Cole, low wages due to globalisation and increased competitiveness across the world will be a problem for all parties.
I also don't think not being part of the EU entails doing no trade and having no travel to/from the continent.0 -
I was surprised Mike Smithson considered that she gave a good account of herself against Andrew Neill in "full flight"Easterross said:Have to ask is Lucy Powell a Tory plant? She has to be the most intellectually deficient Labour MP I have heard in years. Watched her interviewed on 2 channels yesterday. She has no idea about numbers and cannot count. Andrew Neil chewed her up on Sunday Politics and did all but call her a thick bint.
Personally I felt it was the most inept performance by a Labour spokesperson I can readily remember. If she is incapable of dealing with this particular interviewer, she shouldn't have been put forward. Time and time again Neill asked her to provide numbers and time and time again she failed to come up with any ..... quite hopeless.0 -
Well widen the tax base then by reinstatement of the 10p tax band then is that the idea and get the lower paid "workers" back in the tax system that the Tories removed from any tax at all?Monksfield said:Indigo said:
You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?Monksfield said:It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....
The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.Millsy said:
I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!CarlottaVance said:
32 vs 33?MikeSmithson said:
look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.peter_from_putney said:Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).
Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.
I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.
5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....
By the way since the budget I see !abour have quietly dropped the 1600 quid worse off line. Just another inaccurate sound bite that bites the dust.0 -
Teachers even in the private sector are anti-Tory. Firstly teachers have had their pensions altered slightly downwards as govt switched to CPI and of course all teachers now contribute a higher rate - recall Heads went on strike first time in history. State teachers have be denigrated by the Tory ideology e.g. D/ Hate Mail reinforced by Tory tabloids which unceasingly find fault in this profession which would not get abroad. Who wants to go into teaching now- there;s a recruitment crisis - frozen pay, work loads which are causing stress and this is bad because without good graduates in ordinary schools...etc. and I did not mention the A Level changes which stopped all sixthformers doing Jan resits ( never happened since A Levels started) and the Tory wish to end AS levels. How long have you got?0
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Because earning enough to pay taxes gives people a stake in society. Hiding the decline in peoples standard of living by removing them from the tax net is a zero sum game - hence we can no longer afford an effective army, police force etc.Alanbrooke said:
must be all that coalition taking the low paid out of the tax system. Can't see why putting them back in is better.Monksfield said:Indigo said:
You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?Monksfield said:It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....
The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.Millsy said:
I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!CarlottaVance said:
32 vs 33?MikeSmithson said:
look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.peter_from_putney said:Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).
Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.
I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.
5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....0 -
Someone on the minimum wage of £6.50 working a 36 hour week, is going to be paid a gross of £12,168 so they are going to be paying some tax, although rather a lot less with the coalition's massively increased personal allowance than they would have been under Labour.Monksfield said:Indigo said:
You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?Monksfield said:It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....
The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.Millsy said:
I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!CarlottaVance said:
32 vs 33?MikeSmithson said:
look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.peter_from_putney said:Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).
Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.
I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.
5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....
How exactly does a government mandate a pay rise ? Sure you can increase the minimum wage, but if that makes the job uncompetitive compared to either not doing it, or doing it somewhere else, the job will disappear and less tax will be paid and unemployment will go up.
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Chuka not doing much better this morning.peter_from_putney said:Personally I felt it was the most inept performance by a Labour spokesperson I can readily remember. If she is incapable of dealing with this particular interviewer, she shouldn't have been put forward. Time and time again Neill asked her to provide numbers and time and time again she failed to come up with any ..... quite hopeless.
"The IFS figure is wrong. I can't tell you the right figure..."
AlsoHe was asked about an ad placed by Labour in today’s Financial Times which quotes various company chiefs warning of the dangers to business of an EU exit. Umunna was cagey over the issue of whether any of the companies mentioned had actually pledged to back Labour on 7 May
Oops0 -
With record employment - and faster growth in employment than under previous governments - putting people back into tax must be what they are planning - how else will they do it?Alanbrooke said:
must be all that coalition taking the low paid out of the tax system. Can't see why putting them back in is better.Monksfield said:Indigo said:
You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?Monksfield said:It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....
The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.Millsy said:
I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!CarlottaVance said:
32 vs 33?MikeSmithson said:
look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.peter_from_putney said:Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).
Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.
I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.
5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....
Perhaps the 10p rate is to soften the blow?0 -
Didn't you get the memo, Labour supporters are supposed to stop talking about the standard of living, because it inconsiderately decided to go up recently to better than is was before the recession, and what with zero inflation people are better off.Monksfield said:
Because earning enough to pay taxes gives people a stake in society. Hiding the decline in peoples standard of living by removing them from the tax net is a zero sum game - hence we can no longer afford an effective army, police force etc.Alanbrooke said:
must be all that coalition taking the low paid out of the tax system. Can't see why putting them back in is better.Monksfield said:Indigo said:
You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?Monksfield said:It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....
The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.Millsy said:
I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!CarlottaVance said:
32 vs 33?MikeSmithson said:
look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.peter_from_putney said:Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).
Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.
I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.
5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....0 -
Possibly because that's the way Mike Smithson framed this morning's thread?Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Not sure why there's such a focus on teachers' voting intentions compared to other occupations.0 -
Mr. Putney, you cheeky monkey.
Now I come to think of it, perhaps pollsters have only asked about certain groups.0 -
I really must see this clip - it sounds riveting for all the wrong reasonspeter_from_putney said:
I was surprised Mike Smithson considered that she gave a good account of herself against Andrew Neill in "full flight"Easterross said:Have to ask is Lucy Powell a Tory plant? She has to be the most intellectually deficient Labour MP I have heard in years. Watched her interviewed on 2 channels yesterday. She has no idea about numbers and cannot count. Andrew Neil chewed her up on Sunday Politics and did all but call her a thick bint.
Personally I felt it was the most inept performance by a Labour spokesperson I can readily remember. If she is incapable of dealing with this particular interviewer, she shouldn't have been put forward. Time and time again Neill asked her to provide numbers and time and time again she failed to come up with any ..... quite hopeless.0 -
Here's a question for the knowledgeable psephologists: Does ramping a particular poll result create a bandwagon or a negative reaction? We see the BBC ramping a (Yougov) Labour lead and the Daily Mail ramping a (Comres) Tory lead. Does this help their respective tribes? Or does the Labour lead scare more people into voting Tory (and vice versa)?0
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That feels like a poster of a fractured leg... Who's running their show?
OopsScott_P said:
Chuka not doing much better this morning.peter_from_putney said:Personally I felt it was the most inept performance by a Labour spokesperson I can readily remember. If she is incapable of dealing with this particular interviewer, she shouldn't have been put forward. Time and time again Neill asked her to provide numbers and time and time again she failed to come up with any ..... quite hopeless.
"The IFS figure is wrong. I can't tell you the right figure..."
AlsoHe was asked about an ad placed by Labour in today’s Financial Times which quotes various company chiefs warning of the dangers to business of an EU exit. Umunna was cagey over the issue of whether any of the companies mentioned had actually pledged to back Labour on 7 May
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@CampaignWatchUK: This highlight reel of @AFNeil's interview with Lucy Powell this morning is devastating https://youtu.be/N4sv5CrfvBI via @YouTubePlato said:I really must see this clip - it sounds riveting for all the wrong reasons
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Which is a flawed argument.Monksfield said:The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.
The act of taxation is just moved towards consumption instead of direct taxation on incomes or profits.
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It won't necessarily compensate as so many necessities are VAT exempt.chestnut said:
Which is a flawed argument.Monksfield said:The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.
The act of taxation is just moved towards consumption instead of direct taxation on incomes or profits.0 -
Monksfield said:
Because earning enough to pay taxes gives people a stake in society. Hiding the decline in peoples standard of living by removing them from the tax net is a zero sum game - hence we can no longer afford an effective army, police force etc.Alanbrooke said:
must be all that coalition taking the low paid out of the tax system. Can't see why putting them back in is better.Monksfield said:Indigo said:
You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?Monksfield said:It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....
The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.Millsy said:
I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!CarlottaVance said:
32 vs 33?MikeSmithson said:
look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.peter_from_putney said:Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).
Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.
I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.
5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....
So by removing low paid from tax is a bad thing then. Due to the fact said low paid have now been lifted out of tax we can't afford good public services.
Ok, glad we got that cleared up.
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Nope. Not a Labour supporter, except relative to the Tories. And as a public sector worker my standard of living remains substantially worse than it was when the Coalition took over.Indigo said:
Didn't you get the memo, Labour supporters are supposed to stop talking about the standard of living, because it inconsiderately decided to go up recently to better than is was before the recession, and what with zero inflation people are better off.Monksfield said:
Because earning enough to pay taxes gives people a stake in society. Hiding the decline in peoples standard of living by removing them from the tax net is a zero sum game - hence we can no longer afford an effective army, police force etc.Alanbrooke said:
must be all that coalition taking the low paid out of the tax system. Can't see why putting them back in is better.Monksfield said:Indigo said:
You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?Monksfield said:It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....
The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.Millsy said:
I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!CarlottaVance said:
32 vs 33?MikeSmithson said:
look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.peter_from_putney said:Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).
Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.
I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.
5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....0 -
Ah... She was desperately under prepared or Labour doesn't have any serious plans - or both.Scott_P said:
@CampaignWatchUK: This highlight reel of @AFNeil's interview with Lucy Powell this morning is devastating https://youtu.be/N4sv5CrfvBI via @YouTubePlato said:I really must see this clip - it sounds riveting for all the wrong reasons
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It will still increase consumption and activity which will in turn create additional employment, dividend and corporate taxation revenue from the sellers.Monksfield said:It won't necessarily compensate as so many necessities are VAT exempt.
The only significant difference is that the earning taxpayer is deciding how to spend their hard earned cash rather than the army of Lucy Powell's.
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F1: don't forget to check the post-race analysis of a rather surprising Malaysian Grand Prix:
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/malaysia-post-race-analysis.html
Worth noting that Grosjean had a lack of power for the whole race due to a turbo issue. I do think my tip would've failed anyway, but he would've been further up the field and the result does not reflect the pace of the Lotus.0 -
If we want high quality services, they have to be paid for. And lifting a vast proportion of the population out of tax all together doesn't help with that. The fundamental problem is low pay. Anyway, must go to work.Moses_ said:Monksfield said:
Because earning enough to pay taxes gives people a stake in society. Hiding the decline in peoples standard of living by removing them from the tax net is a zero sum game - hence we can no longer afford an effective army, police force etc.Alanbrooke said:
must be all that coalition taking the low paid out of the tax system. Can't see why putting them back in is better.Monksfield said:Indigo said:
You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?Monksfield said:It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....
The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.Millsy said:
I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!CarlottaVance said:
32 vs 33?MikeSmithson said:
look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.peter_from_putney said:Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).
Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.
I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.
5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....
So by removing low paid from tax is a bad thing then. Due to the fact said low paid have now been lifted out of tax we can't afford good public services.
Ok, glad we got that cleared up.0 -
Mr. Monksfield [I know you're off so you may take a long while to reply], how is that to be achieved, though?
We have a large deficit and currently spend more on interest payments than Defence. We can't magic money from nowhere.0 -
I'm always impressed by tales of teachers indoctrinating children and getting them to vote Labour: I couldn't get the so and sos to start a sentence with a capital letter or finish it with a full stop.0
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Should phone polls have a higher (accuracy?) weighting than on-line polls - many of the latter having a more interested population and so may not reflect the responses of the real electorate?0
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The Daily Mail finds fault in the profession with good reason and I say that having 3 teenage children in the local comp. Teachers are very well rewarded but never seem satisfied, I don't buy the stress/long hours Union dogma at all, as soon as there was a flake of snow this winter the school was shut. I have a 10 mile journey every day and never took a day off this winter, in reality teachers do themselves few favours gaining respect with the wider public.leslie48 said:Teachers even in the private sector are anti-Tory. Firstly teachers have had their pensions altered slightly downwards as govt switched to CPI and of course all teachers now contribute a higher rate - recall Heads went on strike first time in history. State teachers have be denigrated by the Tory ideology e.g. D/ Hate Mail reinforced by Tory tabloids which unceasingly find fault in this profession which would not get abroad. Who wants to go into teaching now- there;s a recruitment crisis - frozen pay, work loads which are causing stress and this is bad because without good graduates in ordinary schools...etc. and I did not mention the A Level changes which stopped all sixthformers doing Jan resits ( never happened since A Levels started) and the Tory wish to end AS levels. How long have you got?
I don't think most people would be too concerned with the short hours, long holidays, generous pensions etc if there were no strikes, threats and constant complaining and that is what the Mail picks up on. In my experience there are some very good dedicated teachers but they are in a minority.
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Mr. Financier, on the other hand, a more interested population is likelier to turn out.0
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Actually we can afford it. The question is about choices, if we spent less on DFID giveaways we could put more in the army or education. If we chopped fuel allowance ot free licences for pensioners we could spend it on the NHS. Your beef appears to be that once HMG decide to spend money on something it's irrevocable we can't change it.Monksfield said:
Because earning enough to pay taxes gives people a stake in society. Hiding the decline in peoples standard of living by removing them from the tax net is a zero sum game - hence we can no longer afford an effective army, police force etc.Alanbrooke said:
must be all that coalition taking the low paid out of the tax system. Can't see why putting them back in is better.Monksfield said:Indigo said:
You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?Monksfield said:It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....
The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.Millsy said:
I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!CarlottaVance said:
32 vs 33?MikeSmithson said:
look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.peter_from_putney said:Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).
Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.
I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.
5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....
Personally I'm all for a smaller state that does fewer things better and funds them properly.0
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