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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If teachers are as hostile to the Tories as they were 16 mo

SystemSystem Posts: 11,704
edited March 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If teachers are as hostile to the Tories as they were 16 months ago then that could have an impact that is not being picked up by standard polling

During one of the breaks at the big LSE GE forecasting conference on Friday I was asked for suggestions of ideas for interesting polling that could tell us more than what we see in standard surveys or constituency polling. After pondering this over the weekend I think that a repetition of the surveys above might give us a useful insight.

Read the full story here


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    First ..... again!
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited March 2015
    No.

    Teachers are voters like any other, they will be picked up in proportion to their influence in the electorate by random sampling. You might as well say nurses, social workers or other likely left leaning public sector workers not liking the government will make a difference, they will, but not more nor less than any other voter, and their vote is no more "hidden" than any other voter. I dare say you could make similar suggestions for bankers for the Tories.
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    Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    First ..... again!

    Again.. sigh :cry:

    One day.....
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).

    That is the point it wasn't.

    Just look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.


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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    It's a good thing their pupils don't get the vote, then.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Indigo said:

    No.

    Teachers are voters like any other, they will be picked up in proportion to their influence in the electorate by random sampling. You might as well say nurses, social workers or other likely left leaning public sector workers not liking the government will make a difference, they will, but not more nor less than any other voter, and their vote is no more "hidden" than any other voter. I dare say you could make similar suggestions for bankers for the Tories.

    In 2010 most doctors voted Conservative (according to Pulse the GP magazine). I have not seen this years figures yet, but public sector workers such as NHS staff, teachers and police are all significant blocks of voters. Remember when police were very Tory? Not so much any more.

    Public sector workers are aware that money is tight, but Mike is right in pointing out that the denigration by cabinet members is foolish.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,787

    Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).

    look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.
    32 vs 33?

    Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.

    I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.

    5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....
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    Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).

    That is the point it wasn't.

    Just look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.


    Sorry Mike, but I would take a lot of convinvincing ..... Guardian strewn common rooms, etc, it's simply in Teachers' DNA. Rather like working for the BBC or in NHS management, Local Government bureaucracy, etc, etc. Of course there are exceptions, but not that many.
    To some extent we all vote with our wallet and the one way in which the Tories may be able to garner additional support is by taking middle earners out of the 40% higher rate tax band which is catching an ever increasing number and will certainly continue to do so should Labour win on 7 May.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    One factor worth noting from today, with parliament being dissolved, is that OFCOM rules apply.

    There'll be significantly more coverage for the LibDems and Ukip.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    No.

    Teachers are voters like any other, they will be picked up in proportion to their influence in the electorate by random sampling. You might as well say nurses, social workers or other likely left leaning public sector workers not liking the government will make a difference, they will, but not more nor less than any other voter, and their vote is no more "hidden" than any other voter. I dare say you could make similar suggestions for bankers for the Tories.

    In 2010 most doctors voted Conservative (according to Pulse the GP magazine). I have not seen this years figures yet, but public sector workers such as NHS staff, teachers and police are all significant blocks of voters. Remember when police were very Tory? Not so much any more.

    Public sector workers are aware that money is tight, but Mike is right in pointing out that the denigration by cabinet members is foolish.
    I am not saying there hasn't been a move of public sector workers to Labour, I am saying it isn't "hidden", it will be picked up in the polls like any other move in any other group, that's the whole point about random sampling, unless there is any reason to suspect that teachers disproportionately don't answer polls.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    felix said:

    I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.

    This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.

    The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.

    The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited March 2015
    Beautiful and moody sunrise this morning.

    At bit like Mrs JackW .... she has toothache and an appointment with the driller killer looms. :love:
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    asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    I'm stunned to discover there are almost 500,000 teachers in England and Wales. That's around 1 person in 100 of voting age being a teacher. If we assume that teachers are more likely to vote than the general population, this change could be worth somewhere around 0.4% in the polls.

    It's not to be discounted, that's a serious number
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    asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers
  • Options

    plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers

    Is that a polite way of saying that some teachers may indoctrinate their students?
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers

    But why wouldn't we see that in the polls now, they will be people with high likelihood to vote numbers already, and will have influenced people already.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,392
    Do we have actual voting figures for 2010? My understanding is that Mandelson's campaign was very successful at scaring the bejesus out of public sector workers generally threatening them with an apocalypse.

    One of the interesting factors of this incredibly unpredictable campaign is how the balance has changed since 2010. There are in round terms nearly 1m fewer public sector workers than there were then and nearly 3m more private sector workers. A simplistic analysis suggests this should favour the Tories with a greater proportion of the electorate exposed to the realities of the market but there are undoubtedly a series of counter movements.

    Obvious examples are those previously employed in the public sector and resentful of having to work harder for less, those getting the sharp end of the market with ZHCs and lousy employers taking advantage, those who used to get help from those million public sector employees who now don't. etc etc.

    Like everything else in this election it is hard to read but I would be very surprised if those still in the public sector, who have had a pretty rough time of it these last 5 years, are more Labour inclined than they were in 2010. The fact that the Tories are still clearly intending further public sector cuts will once again make them apprehensive.
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    asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276

    plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers

    Is that a polite way of saying that some teachers may indoctrinate their students?
    No, because their students can't vote. However parents may take into account the views of education professionals (I wouldn't, as a parent if the teaching unions oppose something that's a sure sign it's a good idea)
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    asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    Indigo said:

    plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers

    But why wouldn't we see that in the polls now, they will be people with high likelihood to vote numbers already, and will have influenced people already.
    We probably already do in terms of raw teachers VI numbers, the amplification effect probably comes later
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,648
    I'd be very surprised if more teachers voted Tory in 2010GE than Labour, particularly given free schools and academies were a high-profile Tory policy at the time.
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    Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    Im. Sure I posted here half an hour ago - scratches head.
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    peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,875
    edited March 2015
    " The fact that the Tories are still clearly intending further public sector cuts will once again make them apprehensive."

    What is staggering is that there are still further meaningful cuts to be made, having already reduced the number emplyed in the Public Sector by more than one million.
    In God's name, just what did they all do all day ..... it's difficult to notice they've gone, other than in our largely frozen Council Tax bills (or actually reduced bills for those of us in living in the London Borough of Wandsworth).
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited March 2015
    "New polling could be very enlightening."

    Indeed – 16 months is a long time in politics.

    So, are we expecting another poll commissioned by the NUT shortly or not?
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers

    Is that a polite way of saying that some teachers may indoctrinate their students?
    No, because their students can't vote. However parents may take into account the views of education professionals (I wouldn't, as a parent if the teaching unions oppose something that's a sure sign it's a good idea)
    The entire leftie biased education system indoctrinates the students. Students spend a decade or more in schools with their free speech suppressed in the name of various trendy nostrums about not offending other people, such that by the time they get to university we see in polls that students would much rather be "not offended" than free to voice their opinions. Combine that with the input from SRE classes, civics classes, values education, where students grades are dependent on regurgitating the current right-on views year after year, and are we surprised that what you get as a product in a Labour or Green voter. Its only after repeatedly being mugged by real life that some of them become Tories, those that work in the public sector get more protection from real life and tend to stay on the left.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,392

    " The fact that the Tories are still clearly intending further public sector cuts will once again make them apprehensive."

    What is staggering is that there are still further meaningful cuts to be made, having already reduced the number emplyed in the Public Sector by more than one million.
    In God's name, just what did they all do all day ..... it's difficult to notice they've gone, other than in our largely frozen Council Tax bills (or actually reduced bills for those of us in living in the London Borough of Wandsworth).

    Don't worry Peter. Lucy is on the case and has identified anything up to a further £1bn of savings to cut the deficit. Things can only get better.

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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,977
    Indigo said:

    plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers

    Is that a polite way of saying that some teachers may indoctrinate their students?
    No, because their students can't vote. However parents may take into account the views of education professionals (I wouldn't, as a parent if the teaching unions oppose something that's a sure sign it's a good idea)
    The entire leftie biased education system indoctrinates the students. Students spend a decade or more in schools with their free speech suppressed in the name of various trendy nostrums about not offending other people, such that by the time they get to university we see in polls that students would much rather be "not offended" than free to voice their opinions. Combine that with the input from SRE classes, civics classes, values education, where students grades are dependent on regurgitating the current right-on views year after year, and are we surprised that what you get as a product in a Labour or Green voter. Its only after repeatedly being mugged by real life that some of them become Tories, those that work in the public sector get more protection from real life and tend to stay on the left.

    Post of the year, perhaps of the decade. Total rubbish, of course; but clearly heartfelt. Marvellous stuff.

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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,977

    " The fact that the Tories are still clearly intending further public sector cuts will once again make them apprehensive."

    What is staggering is that there are still further meaningful cuts to be made, having already reduced the number emplyed in the Public Sector by more than one million.
    In God's name, just what did they all do all day ..... it's difficult to notice they've gone, other than in our largely frozen Council Tax bills (or actually reduced bills for those of us in living in the London Borough of Wandsworth).

    A much smaller army is one manifestation; as is much greater spending on agency staff. And, of course, many of the jobs have simply been transferred into the private sector.

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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited March 2015
    Along with populous, I believe his Lordship will also be releasing his latest poll today at 4pm?


    And I've just read YouGov will poll 7 days a week after Easter - Yippee! :)
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,977
    GeoffM said:

    felix said:

    I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.

    This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.

    The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.

    The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.

    Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.

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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited March 2015

    Indigo said:

    plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers

    Is that a polite way of saying that some teachers may indoctrinate their students?
    No, because their students can't vote. However parents may take into account the views of education professionals (I wouldn't, as a parent if the teaching unions oppose something that's a sure sign it's a good idea)
    The entire leftie biased education system indoctrinates the students. Students spend a decade or more in schools with their free speech suppressed in the name of various trendy nostrums about not offending other people, such that by the time they get to university we see in polls that students would much rather be "not offended" than free to voice their opinions. Combine that with the input from SRE classes, civics classes, values education, where students grades are dependent on regurgitating the current right-on views year after year, and are we surprised that what you get as a product in a Labour or Green voter. Its only after repeatedly being mugged by real life that some of them become Tories, those that work in the public sector get more protection from real life and tend to stay on the left.

    Post of the year, perhaps of the decade. Total rubbish, of course; but clearly heartfelt. Marvellous stuff.

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9376232/free-speech-is-so-last-century-todays-students-want-the-right-to-be-comfortable/
    If your go-to image of a student is someone who’s free-spirited and open-minded, who loves having a pop at orthodoxies, then you urgently need to update your mind’s picture bank. Students are now pretty much the opposite of that. It’s hard to think of any other section of society that has undergone as epic a transformation as students have. From freewheelin’ to ban-happy, from askers of awkward questions to suppressors of offensive speech, in the space of a generation.
    Not to mention all the "safe space" policies covering large swathes of modern universities
    A place where anyone can relax and be fully self-expressed, without fear of being made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcome, or unsafe on account of biological sex, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, cultural background, age, or physical or mental ability; a place where the rules guard each person's self-respect and dignity and strongly encourage everyone to respect others
    aka. the right not to be offended.
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    plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers

    Is that a polite way of saying that some teachers may indoctrinate their students?
    No, because their students can't vote. However parents may take into account the views of education professionals (I wouldn't, as a parent if the teaching unions oppose something that's a sure sign it's a good idea)
    Eh? I wasn't actually referring to the students in question having reached voting age.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    GeoffM said:

    felix said:

    I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.

    This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.

    The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.

    The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.

    Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.

    Even if they only provide a directly equivalent education, and the jury is out on that given they have only been going a few years, the ability to drastically reduce the headcount of the Department of Education, and dramatically downsize LEAs would save a lot of public money, and leave the schools free to respond to the needs of their customers, the parents. When I went to school the UK was around 2nd or 3rd in Maths and English, its now around 26th, sitting around with our fingers in our ears wishing it to get better isn't working.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    GeoffM said:

    felix said:

    I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.

    This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.

    The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.

    The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.

    Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.

    plenty of evidence that comprehensives provide a crap education
  • Options
    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    edited March 2015
    O/T

    Looking at the time stamp on the post, it looks like somebody's server hasn't changed to BST

    Edit - oops I wasn't signed in :embarrassed smilie:
  • Options
    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,237

    Indigo said:

    plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers

    Is that a polite way of saying that some teachers may indoctrinate their students?
    No, because their students can't vote. However parents may take into account the views of education professionals (I wouldn't, as a parent if the teaching unions oppose something that's a sure sign it's a good idea)
    The entire leftie biased education system indoctrinates the students. Students spend a decade or more in schools with their free speech suppressed in the name of various trendy nostrums about not offending other people, such that by the time they get to university we see in polls that students would much rather be "not offended" than free to voice their opinions. Combine that with the input from SRE classes, civics classes, values education, where students grades are dependent on regurgitating the current right-on views year after year, and are we surprised that what you get as a product in a Labour or Green voter. Its only after repeatedly being mugged by real life that some of them become Tories, those that work in the public sector get more protection from real life and tend to stay on the left.

    Post of the year, perhaps of the decade. Total rubbish, of course; but clearly heartfelt. Marvellous stuff.

    Indeed. Complete and utter drivel. Anyone would think parents and family had no impact on the way a child's thinking and character is formed.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,977

    GeoffM said:

    felix said:

    I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.

    This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.

    The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.

    The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.

    Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.

    plenty of evidence that comprehensives provide a crap education

    There is plenty of evidence that some do. And plenty of evidence that many others don't.

  • Options
    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,237
    Anyway, I see Cameron is to say that voters are being offered a stark choice between him and Ed. As ever, the PR goon oversells himself. This isn't a stark choice. It's a completely dismal one.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,977


    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9376232/free-speech-is-so-last-century-todays-students-want-the-right-to-be-comfortable/
    If your go-to image of a student is someone who’s free-spirited and open-minded, who loves having a pop at orthodoxies, then you urgently need to update your mind’s picture bank. Students are now pretty much the opposite of that. It’s hard to think of any other section of society that has undergone as epic a transformation as students have. From freewheelin’ to ban-happy, from askers of awkward questions to suppressors of offensive speech, in the space of a generation.
    Not to mention all the "safe space" policies covering large swathes of modern universities
    A place where anyone can relax and be fully self-expressed, without fear of being made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcome, or unsafe on account of biological sex, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, cultural background, age, or physical or mental ability; a place where the rules guard each person's self-respect and dignity and strongly encourage everyone to respect others
    aka. the right not to be offended.



    Ah, a Brendan O'Neill article in the Spectator proves your point. I see :-D.

    It might be worth reflecting on the fact that his string of anecdotes begins with some taken from Oxford and Cambridge universities, where about 40% of students went to private schools.

  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    plus, they are probably quite an socially influential group, which adds an amplification factor to the raw numbers

    Is that a polite way of saying that some teachers may indoctrinate their students?
    No, because their students can't vote. However parents may take into account the views of education professionals (I wouldn't, as a parent if the teaching unions oppose something that's a sure sign it's a good idea)
    The entire leftie biased education system indoctrinates the students. Students spend a decade or more in schools with their free speech suppressed in the name of various trendy nostrums about not offending other people, such that by the time they get to university we see in polls that students would much rather be "not offended" than free to voice their opinions. Combine that with the input from SRE classes, civics classes, values education, where students grades are dependent on regurgitating the current right-on views year after year, and are we surprised that what you get as a product in a Labour or Green voter. Its only after repeatedly being mugged by real life that some of them become Tories, those that work in the public sector get more protection from real life and tend to stay on the left.

    Post of the year, perhaps of the decade. Total rubbish, of course; but clearly heartfelt. Marvellous stuff.

    Indeed. Complete and utter drivel. Anyone would think parents and family had no impact on the way a child's thinking and character is formed.
    PB lefties deny leftie cultural hegemony in the education system... someone pass that bear the toilet paper.
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    asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    Plenty of evidence that Schools don't matter all that much, the best predictor of educational outcome is the parents levels of education and expectation.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,063
    Indigo said:

    GeoffM said:

    felix said:

    I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.

    This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.

    The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.

    The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.

    Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.

    Even if they only provide a directly equivalent education, and the jury is out on that given they have only been going a few years, the ability to drastically reduce the headcount of the Department of Education, and dramatically downsize LEAs would save a lot of public money, and leave the schools free to respond to the needs of their customers, the parents. When I went to school the UK was around 2nd or 3rd in Maths and English, its now around 26th, sitting around with our fingers in our ears wishing it to get better isn't working.
    Because others have got “better" doesn’t necessarily mean that we have got “worse”. To quote the old example, becuase a lot more people are climbing Everest in 2014 than in 1954 doesn’t mean that Everest has got lower.

    My teacher granddaughter is voting Tory. However, that’s because she’s in Castle Point and doesn’t want UKIP to get in.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,977
    Indigo said:

    GeoffM said:

    felix said:

    I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.

    This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.

    The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.

    The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.

    Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.

    Even if they only provide a directly equivalent education, and the jury is out on that given they have only been going a few years, the ability to drastically reduce the headcount of the Department of Education, and dramatically downsize LEAs would save a lot of public money, and leave the schools free to respond to the needs of their customers, the parents. When I went to school the UK was around 2nd or 3rd in Maths and English, its now around 26th, sitting around with our fingers in our ears wishing it to get better isn't working.

    When you went to school there was no internationally recognised means to compare education performance in different countries.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited March 2015



    Ah, a Brendan O'Neill article in the Spectator proves your point. I see :-D.

    It might be worth reflecting on the fact that his string of anecdotes begins with some taken from Oxford and Cambridge universities, where about 40% of students went to private schools.

    The second quote was from wikipedia article of safe spaces. Do you deny that modern universities are heavily covered by safe space policies ? Do you deny the function of the said safe spaces is to provide places where people can feel "comfortable" by virtual of denying other people free speech ?
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    Along with populous, I believe his Lordship will also be releasing his latest poll today at 4pm?


    And I've just read YouGov will poll 7 days a week after Easter - Yippee! :)

    Interesting that Lord Ashcroft chose to flag up the fact, so soon after the release of the ComRes numbers last night, that his own latest polling results would be out at 4.00pm today.
    Unfortunately, I doubt for one second that he was giving us any kind of a steer as to what these might indicate.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    GeoffM said:

    felix said:

    I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.

    This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.

    The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.

    The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.

    Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.

    Even if they only provide a directly equivalent education, and the jury is out on that given they have only been going a few years, the ability to drastically reduce the headcount of the Department of Education, and dramatically downsize LEAs would save a lot of public money, and leave the schools free to respond to the needs of their customers, the parents. When I went to school the UK was around 2nd or 3rd in Maths and English, its now around 26th, sitting around with our fingers in our ears wishing it to get better isn't working.

    When you went to school there was no internationally recognised means to compare education performance in different countries.
    You are wibbling. If you go back to even 2000 we were 9th, at the end of Labour in 2008 we were 28th, Gove has got us back to 26th.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,977
    Indigo said:



    Ah, a Brendan O'Neill article in the Spectator proves your point. I see :-D.

    It might be worth reflecting on the fact that his string of anecdotes begins with some taken from Oxford and Cambridge universities, where about 40% of students went to private schools.

    The second quote was from wikipedia article of safe spaces. Do you deny that modern universities are heavily covered by safe space policies ? Do you deny the function of the said safe spaces is to provide places where people can feel "comfortable" by virtual of denying other people free speech ?

    I have no idea. Neither am I sure what it has got to do with primary and secondary school teachers - the targets of your original, baseless rant.

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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,237
    edited March 2015
    It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....
  • Options
    It seems that going forward we are set to get at least one set of polling results every day, increasing to nearly two per day in the final two weeks of the campaign - Sunil is going to be a busy boy.
  • Options
    MillsyMillsy Posts: 900
    edited March 2015
    Why is Ed advertising the Tory promise of a referendum on the EU? The only bad thing about the policy is that not enough people know about it
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....

    You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?
  • Options
    EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Morning all, did either BBC Breakfast or SKY New mention the ComRes poll? I didn't see or hear either doing so. Compare and contrast with yesterday where both went into full orgasm mode on the YouGov poll complete with Joe Twyman ramping up his poll with little caveat.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Along with populous, I believe his Lordship will also be releasing his latest poll today at 4pm?


    And I've just read YouGov will poll 7 days a week after Easter - Yippee! :)

    Interesting that Lord Ashcroft chose to flag up the fact, so soon after the release of the ComRes numbers last night, that his own latest polling results would be out at 4.00pm today.
    Unfortunately, I doubt for one second that he was giving us any kind of a steer as to what these might indicate.
    His Lordship is a mischievous bugger who rarely gives anything away with his tweets - he probably logs on to PB immediately after their release just for a giggle. :)
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    " the Thatcherite coalition"
    A fundamentally flawed form of words surely?
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:



    Ah, a Brendan O'Neill article in the Spectator proves your point. I see :-D.

    It might be worth reflecting on the fact that his string of anecdotes begins with some taken from Oxford and Cambridge universities, where about 40% of students went to private schools.

    The second quote was from wikipedia article of safe spaces. Do you deny that modern universities are heavily covered by safe space policies ? Do you deny the function of the said safe spaces is to provide places where people can feel "comfortable" by virtual of denying other people free speech ?

    I have no idea. Neither am I sure what it has got to do with primary and secondary school teachers - the targets of your original, baseless rant.

    Nothing like shifting your ground. You were just criticising the Spectator article about Universities which I linked, you were quite happy talking about non-primary/secondary school education then, until it get a bit awkward.
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    MillsyMillsy Posts: 900

    Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).

    look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.
    32 vs 33?

    Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.

    I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.

    5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....
    I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Interesting piece on inequality from the USA.

    "recent trends in both capital wealth and income are driven almost entirely by housing"

    Rather than taxing businesses and wealthy investors, “policy-makers should deal with the planning regulations and NIMBYism that inhibit housebuilding and which allow homeowners to capture super-normal returns on their investments.

    https://medium.com/the-ferenstein-wire/a-26-year-old-mit-graduate-is-turning-heads-over-his-theory-that-income-inequality-is-actually-2a3b423e0c
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    EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Have to ask is Lucy Powell a Tory plant? She has to be the most intellectually deficient Labour MP I have heard in years. Watched her interviewed on 2 channels yesterday. She has no idea about numbers and cannot count. Andrew Neil chewed her up on Sunday Politics and did all but call her a thick bint.
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    nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    Indigo said:

    GeoffM said:

    felix said:

    I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.

    This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.

    The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.

    The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.

    Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.

    Even if they only provide a directly equivalent education, and the jury is out on that given they have only been going a few years, the ability to drastically reduce the headcount of the Department of Education, and dramatically downsize LEAs would save a lot of public money, and leave the schools free to respond to the needs of their customers, the parents. When I went to school the UK was around 2nd or 3rd in Maths and English, its now around 26th, sitting around with our fingers in our ears wishing it to get better isn't working.
    Because others have got “better" doesn’t necessarily mean that we have got “worse”. To quote the old example, becuase a lot more people are climbing Everest in 2014 than in 1954 doesn’t mean that Everest has got lower.

    My teacher granddaughter is voting Tory. However, that’s because she’s in Castle Point and doesn’t want UKIP to get in.
    Another teacher that does not want to give bright working class kids a chance to get on, how sad but predictable.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Lucy Powell projects as a shouty, trade union style activist or the member of a polytechnic picket line.

    We'll cut the deficit by cutting ministerial pay... (chuckle, guffaw)

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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,648

    Along with populous, I believe his Lordship will also be releasing his latest poll today at 4pm?


    And I've just read YouGov will poll 7 days a week after Easter - Yippee! :)

    Interesting that Lord Ashcroft chose to flag up the fact, so soon after the release of the ComRes numbers last night, that his own latest polling results would be out at 4.00pm today.
    Unfortunately, I doubt for one second that he was giving us any kind of a steer as to what these might indicate.
    His polls make me nervous.
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    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    Along with populous, I believe his Lordship will also be releasing his latest poll today at 4pm?


    And I've just read YouGov will poll 7 days a week after Easter - Yippee! :)

    Interesting that Lord Ashcroft chose to flag up the fact, so soon after the release of the ComRes numbers last night, that his own latest polling results would be out at 4.00pm today.
    Unfortunately, I doubt for one second that he was giving us any kind of a steer as to what these might indicate.
    A draw, a Labour lead and a Tory lead?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002

    It seems that going forward we are set to get at least one set of polling results every day, increasing to nearly two per day in the final two weeks of the campaign - Sunil is going to be a busy boy.

    We'll need to find the wood amongst the trees.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,237
    Indigo said:

    It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....

    You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?
    Millsy said:

    Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).

    look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.
    32 vs 33?

    Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.

    I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.

    5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....
    I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!
    The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763

    Indigo said:

    It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....

    You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?
    Millsy said:

    Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).

    look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.
    32 vs 33?

    Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.

    I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.

    5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....
    I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!
    The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.
    must be all that coalition taking the low paid out of the tax system. Can't see why putting them back in is better.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,009
    Good morning, everyone.

    Not sure why there's such a focus on teachers' voting intentions compared to other occupations.
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    EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    I see Martin Baxter has made a dramatic adjustment to his seat predictions since mid March. Labour still ahead but down 20 seats and Tories within touching distance.

    No doubt Populus will have a healthy Labour lead as per normal today and goodness knows what the noble LA will have with his trampoline poll at 4pm.
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    GeoffM said:

    felix said:

    I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.

    This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.

    The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.

    The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.

    Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.

    plenty of evidence that comprehensives provide a crap education

    There is plenty of evidence that some do. And plenty of evidence that many others don't.

    However, as a precautionary measure those at the top of Labour always tend to go " across town" to avoid the ones in their own catchment areas.

    Mmmmmm.........
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BBCNormanS: Labour's @ChukaUmunna disputes @ifs claim Labour will still be running £30 billion deficit by end of next Parliament @BBCr4today

    @BBCNormanS: Labour's @ChukaUmunna refuses to put figure on likely capital borrowing and size of deficit under Labour by 2020 @bbcr4today
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,063
    edited March 2015

    Indigo said:

    GeoffM said:

    felix said:

    I think teachers will vote self-interestedly in May, just like everyone else. If they are more pro-Labour that will be off-set by other groups gong the other way.

    This is all about the focus on either producer or consumer. The teaching profession (of which Mike has, for reasons of space, omitted to mention a family interest) is ripe for reform after decades of atrophy and creeping takeover by the forces of political correctness and the dead hand of the Left. Gove began that thankless task.

    The producers have turned to Labour to protect their vested interests and fiefdoms. It is the consumers - pupils - who will reap the benefits of Free Schools. They will get a better education than they would have done otherwise and will be better prepared for the adult world.

    The ungrateful little shits will then vote Labour anyway because the Tories have already made the hard unpopular decisions and fixed things.

    Except there is not a shred of evidence that free schools to provide a better education.

    Even if they only provide a directly equivalent education, and the jury is out on that given they have only been going a few years, the ability to drastically reduce the headcount of the Department of Education, and dramatically downsize LEAs would save a lot of public money, and leave the schools free to respond to the needs of their customers, the parents. When I went to school the UK was around 2nd or 3rd in Maths and English, its now around 26th, sitting around with our fingers in our ears wishing it to get better isn't working.
    Because others have got “better" doesn’t necessarily mean that we have got “worse”. To quote the old example, becuase a lot more people are climbing Everest in 2014 than in 1954 doesn’t mean that Everest has got lower.

    My teacher granddaughter is voting Tory. However, that’s because she’s in Castle Point and doesn’t want UKIP to get in.
    Another teacher that does not want to give bright working class kids a chance to get on, how sad but predictable.
    UKIP giving working class children a chance! How, in an isolated, low wage country will that be possible?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,009
    King Cole, low wages due to globalisation and increased competitiveness across the world will be a problem for all parties.

    I also don't think not being part of the EU entails doing no trade and having no travel to/from the continent.
  • Options

    Have to ask is Lucy Powell a Tory plant? She has to be the most intellectually deficient Labour MP I have heard in years. Watched her interviewed on 2 channels yesterday. She has no idea about numbers and cannot count. Andrew Neil chewed her up on Sunday Politics and did all but call her a thick bint.

    I was surprised Mike Smithson considered that she gave a good account of herself against Andrew Neill in "full flight"
    Personally I felt it was the most inept performance by a Labour spokesperson I can readily remember. If she is incapable of dealing with this particular interviewer, she shouldn't have been put forward. Time and time again Neill asked her to provide numbers and time and time again she failed to come up with any ..... quite hopeless.
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Indigo said:

    It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....

    You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?
    Millsy said:

    Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).

    look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.
    32 vs 33?

    Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.

    I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.

    5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....
    I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!
    The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.
    Well widen the tax base then by reinstatement of the 10p tax band then is that the idea and get the lower paid "workers" back in the tax system that the Tories removed from any tax at all?

    By the way since the budget I see !abour have quietly dropped the 1600 quid worse off line. Just another inaccurate sound bite that bites the dust.
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    leslie48leslie48 Posts: 33
    Teachers even in the private sector are anti-Tory. Firstly teachers have had their pensions altered slightly downwards as govt switched to CPI and of course all teachers now contribute a higher rate - recall Heads went on strike first time in history. State teachers have be denigrated by the Tory ideology e.g. D/ Hate Mail reinforced by Tory tabloids which unceasingly find fault in this profession which would not get abroad. Who wants to go into teaching now- there;s a recruitment crisis - frozen pay, work loads which are causing stress and this is bad because without good graduates in ordinary schools...etc. and I did not mention the A Level changes which stopped all sixthformers doing Jan resits ( never happened since A Levels started) and the Tory wish to end AS levels. How long have you got?
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,237

    Indigo said:

    It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....

    You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?
    Millsy said:

    Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).

    look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.
    32 vs 33?

    Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.

    I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.

    5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....
    I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!
    The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.
    must be all that coalition taking the low paid out of the tax system. Can't see why putting them back in is better.
    Because earning enough to pay taxes gives people a stake in society. Hiding the decline in peoples standard of living by removing them from the tax net is a zero sum game - hence we can no longer afford an effective army, police force etc.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....

    You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?
    Millsy said:

    Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).

    look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.
    32 vs 33?

    Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.

    I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.

    5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....
    I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!
    The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.
    Someone on the minimum wage of £6.50 working a 36 hour week, is going to be paid a gross of £12,168 so they are going to be paying some tax, although rather a lot less with the coalition's massively increased personal allowance than they would have been under Labour.

    How exactly does a government mandate a pay rise ? Sure you can increase the minimum wage, but if that makes the job uncompetitive compared to either not doing it, or doing it somewhere else, the job will disappear and less tax will be paid and unemployment will go up.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Personally I felt it was the most inept performance by a Labour spokesperson I can readily remember. If she is incapable of dealing with this particular interviewer, she shouldn't have been put forward. Time and time again Neill asked her to provide numbers and time and time again she failed to come up with any ..... quite hopeless.

    Chuka not doing much better this morning.

    "The IFS figure is wrong. I can't tell you the right figure..."

    Also
    He was asked about an ad placed by Labour in today’s Financial Times which quotes various company chiefs warning of the dangers to business of an EU exit. Umunna was cagey over the issue of whether any of the companies mentioned had actually pledged to back Labour on 7 May
    Oops
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,787

    Indigo said:

    It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....

    You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?
    Millsy said:

    Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).

    look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.
    32 vs 33?

    Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.

    I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.

    5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....
    I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!
    The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.
    must be all that coalition taking the low paid out of the tax system. Can't see why putting them back in is better.
    With record employment - and faster growth in employment than under previous governments - putting people back into tax must be what they are planning - how else will they do it?

    Perhaps the 10p rate is to soften the blow?
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....

    You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?
    Millsy said:

    Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).

    look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.
    32 vs 33?

    Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.

    I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.

    5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....
    I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!
    The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.
    must be all that coalition taking the low paid out of the tax system. Can't see why putting them back in is better.
    Because earning enough to pay taxes gives people a stake in society. Hiding the decline in peoples standard of living by removing them from the tax net is a zero sum game - hence we can no longer afford an effective army, police force etc.
    Didn't you get the memo, Labour supporters are supposed to stop talking about the standard of living, because it inconsiderately decided to go up recently to better than is was before the recession, and what with zero inflation people are better off.
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    Good morning, everyone.

    Not sure why there's such a focus on teachers' voting intentions compared to other occupations.

    Possibly because that's the way Mike Smithson framed this morning's thread?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,009
    Mr. Putney, you cheeky monkey.

    Now I come to think of it, perhaps pollsters have only asked about certain groups.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I really must see this clip - it sounds riveting for all the wrong reasons

    Have to ask is Lucy Powell a Tory plant? She has to be the most intellectually deficient Labour MP I have heard in years. Watched her interviewed on 2 channels yesterday. She has no idea about numbers and cannot count. Andrew Neil chewed her up on Sunday Politics and did all but call her a thick bint.

    I was surprised Mike Smithson considered that she gave a good account of herself against Andrew Neill in "full flight"
    Personally I felt it was the most inept performance by a Labour spokesperson I can readily remember. If she is incapable of dealing with this particular interviewer, she shouldn't have been put forward. Time and time again Neill asked her to provide numbers and time and time again she failed to come up with any ..... quite hopeless.
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    Here's a question for the knowledgeable psephologists: Does ramping a particular poll result create a bandwagon or a negative reaction? We see the BBC ramping a (Yougov) Labour lead and the Daily Mail ramping a (Comres) Tory lead. Does this help their respective tribes? Or does the Labour lead scare more people into voting Tory (and vice versa)?
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    That feels like a poster of a fractured leg... Who's running their show?
    Scott_P said:

    Personally I felt it was the most inept performance by a Labour spokesperson I can readily remember. If she is incapable of dealing with this particular interviewer, she shouldn't have been put forward. Time and time again Neill asked her to provide numbers and time and time again she failed to come up with any ..... quite hopeless.

    Chuka not doing much better this morning.

    "The IFS figure is wrong. I can't tell you the right figure..."

    Also
    He was asked about an ad placed by Labour in today’s Financial Times which quotes various company chiefs warning of the dangers to business of an EU exit. Umunna was cagey over the issue of whether any of the companies mentioned had actually pledged to back Labour on 7 May
    Oops

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Plato said:

    I really must see this clip - it sounds riveting for all the wrong reasons

    @CampaignWatchUK: This highlight reel of @AFNeil's interview with Lucy Powell this morning is devastating https://youtu.be/N4sv5CrfvBI via @YouTube
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.

    Which is a flawed argument.

    The act of taxation is just moved towards consumption instead of direct taxation on incomes or profits.

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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,237
    chestnut said:

    The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.

    Which is a flawed argument.

    The act of taxation is just moved towards consumption instead of direct taxation on incomes or profits.

    It won't necessarily compensate as so many necessities are VAT exempt.
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Indigo said:

    It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....

    You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?
    Millsy said:

    Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).

    look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.
    32 vs 33?

    Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.

    I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.

    5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....
    I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!
    The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.
    must be all that coalition taking the low paid out of the tax system. Can't see why putting them back in is better.
    Because earning enough to pay taxes gives people a stake in society. Hiding the decline in peoples standard of living by removing them from the tax net is a zero sum game - hence we can no longer afford an effective army, police force etc.

    So by removing low paid from tax is a bad thing then. Due to the fact said low paid have now been lifted out of tax we can't afford good public services.

    Ok, glad we got that cleared up.

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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,237
    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....

    You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?
    Millsy said:

    Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).

    look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.
    32 vs 33?

    Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.

    I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.

    5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....
    I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!
    The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.
    must be all that coalition taking the low paid out of the tax system. Can't see why putting them back in is better.
    Because earning enough to pay taxes gives people a stake in society. Hiding the decline in peoples standard of living by removing them from the tax net is a zero sum game - hence we can no longer afford an effective army, police force etc.
    Didn't you get the memo, Labour supporters are supposed to stop talking about the standard of living, because it inconsiderately decided to go up recently to better than is was before the recession, and what with zero inflation people are better off.
    Nope. Not a Labour supporter, except relative to the Tories. And as a public sector worker my standard of living remains substantially worse than it was when the Coalition took over.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Ah... She was desperately under prepared or Labour doesn't have any serious plans - or both.
    Scott_P said:

    Plato said:

    I really must see this clip - it sounds riveting for all the wrong reasons

    @CampaignWatchUK: This highlight reel of @AFNeil's interview with Lucy Powell this morning is devastating https://youtu.be/N4sv5CrfvBI via @YouTube
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    It won't necessarily compensate as so many necessities are VAT exempt.

    It will still increase consumption and activity which will in turn create additional employment, dividend and corporate taxation revenue from the sellers.

    The only significant difference is that the earning taxpayer is deciding how to spend their hard earned cash rather than the army of Lucy Powell's.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,009
    F1: don't forget to check the post-race analysis of a rather surprising Malaysian Grand Prix:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/malaysia-post-race-analysis.html

    Worth noting that Grosjean had a lack of power for the whole race due to a turbo issue. I do think my tip would've failed anyway, but he would've been further up the field and the result does not reflect the pace of the Lotus.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,237
    edited March 2015
    Moses_ said:

    Indigo said:

    It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....

    You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?
    Millsy said:

    Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).

    look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.
    32 vs 33?

    Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.

    I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.

    5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....
    I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!
    The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.
    must be all that coalition taking the low paid out of the tax system. Can't see why putting them back in is better.
    Because earning enough to pay taxes gives people a stake in society. Hiding the decline in peoples standard of living by removing them from the tax net is a zero sum game - hence we can no longer afford an effective army, police force etc.

    So by removing low paid from tax is a bad thing then. Due to the fact said low paid have now been lifted out of tax we can't afford good public services.

    Ok, glad we got that cleared up.

    If we want high quality services, they have to be paid for. And lifting a vast proportion of the population out of tax all together doesn't help with that. The fundamental problem is low pay. Anyway, must go to work.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,009
    Mr. Monksfield [I know you're off so you may take a long while to reply], how is that to be achieved, though?

    We have a large deficit and currently spend more on interest payments than Defence. We can't magic money from nowhere.
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    frpenkridgefrpenkridge Posts: 670
    I'm always impressed by tales of teachers indoctrinating children and getting them to vote Labour: I couldn't get the so and sos to start a sentence with a capital letter or finish it with a full stop.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Should phone polls have a higher (accuracy?) weighting than on-line polls - many of the latter having a more interested population and so may not reflect the responses of the real electorate?
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    macisbackmacisback Posts: 382
    leslie48 said:

    Teachers even in the private sector are anti-Tory. Firstly teachers have had their pensions altered slightly downwards as govt switched to CPI and of course all teachers now contribute a higher rate - recall Heads went on strike first time in history. State teachers have be denigrated by the Tory ideology e.g. D/ Hate Mail reinforced by Tory tabloids which unceasingly find fault in this profession which would not get abroad. Who wants to go into teaching now- there;s a recruitment crisis - frozen pay, work loads which are causing stress and this is bad because without good graduates in ordinary schools...etc. and I did not mention the A Level changes which stopped all sixthformers doing Jan resits ( never happened since A Levels started) and the Tory wish to end AS levels. How long have you got?

    The Daily Mail finds fault in the profession with good reason and I say that having 3 teenage children in the local comp. Teachers are very well rewarded but never seem satisfied, I don't buy the stress/long hours Union dogma at all, as soon as there was a flake of snow this winter the school was shut. I have a 10 mile journey every day and never took a day off this winter, in reality teachers do themselves few favours gaining respect with the wider public.

    I don't think most people would be too concerned with the short hours, long holidays, generous pensions etc if there were no strikes, threats and constant complaining and that is what the Mail picks up on. In my experience there are some very good dedicated teachers but they are in a minority.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,009
    Mr. Financier, on the other hand, a more interested population is likelier to turn out.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763

    Indigo said:

    It's not just teachers. By waging war on the public sector and its employee base the Tories have lost the votes of a slice of society that once contributed to the Thatcherite coalition. You reap what you sow, Dave, Francis, George etc.....

    You mean that public sector that Ed and Ed are going to cut back as well, they are already pledged to £1bn of local government saving, do you think that is going to happen without anyone losing a job ?
    Millsy said:

    Night follows day, teachers vote Labour ..... surely it was ever thus (and always will be).

    look at the March 2010 polling - the Tories were ahead.
    32 vs 33?

    Isn't that a "tie"? Nice meme, but you wouldn't want to try that on with Andrew Neil - ask Lucy "real world (aka wrong) Powell.

    I suspect teachers may by sympathy be more likely to vote Labour - but also likely to vote against the government - hence the tie in 2010.

    5 years of Lucy Powell "economics" of "widening the tax base" during a time of record employment (lower personal allowance?) may see them falling for the charms of the Tories again....
    I loved that Lucy Powell interview, apparently the workers aren't paying enough taxes!
    The point being made is that the workers aren't earning enough to pay enough taxes.
    must be all that coalition taking the low paid out of the tax system. Can't see why putting them back in is better.
    Because earning enough to pay taxes gives people a stake in society. Hiding the decline in peoples standard of living by removing them from the tax net is a zero sum game - hence we can no longer afford an effective army, police force etc.
    Actually we can afford it. The question is about choices, if we spent less on DFID giveaways we could put more in the army or education. If we chopped fuel allowance ot free licences for pensioners we could spend it on the NHS. Your beef appears to be that once HMG decide to spend money on something it's irrevocable we can't change it.

    Personally I'm all for a smaller state that does fewer things better and funds them properly.
This discussion has been closed.