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Andy Burnham’s government has a Northern Soul – politicalbetting.com

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  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,575

    Nigelb said:

    FPT: Good morning.

    Burnham’s coronation has brought me back to PB after a long absence.

    Healey was the obvious choice for Chancellor.
    I’m surprised the commentariat are surprised:
    Miliband too dangerous; Mahmood no proper experience.

    Haigh becoming Minister for Policy (essentially) also a good move, despite my misgivings over her old fraud conviction. She was one of the few Starmer appointments with a working policy brain.

    Streeting to Defence - interesting; Phillipson sidelined - good; new AI ministry - excellent.

    In other areas, I have a more mixed opinion. Too many firings of perfectly serviceable ministers, just because they were Starmerites, if such a thing ever really existed. Perhaps more accurate to say they were not firm Burnhamites. The new government is thereby “clubbier” than any I remember - this can be seen in the sheer concentration of Northern ministers.

    The electricity announcement shows that Burnham is politically canny in a way that Starmer could never be. It’s a rounding error on the national accounts, and it signals that the new government is “on your side”.
    This is a positive start.

    The anti-case for Miliband's appointment.
    Not entirely unfair.

    Miliband's central role in nixing #UK (& thus, US) response to chemical weapons use in #Syria had **huge** global impacts:

    - #Russia spurred on to invade #Ukraine
    - Triggered the #Syria refugee crisis... which fueled far-right populism...

    https://x.com/Charles_Lister/status/2079571195322597535
    You can make that case. I can see some merit in it. But people equally make the case that the Western intervention in Libya, which helped to topple Gaddafi, is responsible for the chaos there, and the contribution that makes to the migrant crisis. And that intervention succeeded on its own terms - it prevented a slaughter in Benghazi, and led to the fall of Gaddafi.

    What might the consequences had been if the UK and US had conducted airstrikes on Syria, and they had failed to prevent the continued use of chemical weapons? That might have had even worse consequences in terms of diminishing Western deterrence power.

    And I think it was Biden sticking to Trump's plan to withdraw from Afghanistan, and the humiliating fall of Kabul that resulted, that did most to persuade Putin he could invade Ukraine in 2022. The experience gained by Russia fighting for Assad in Syria was, I think, of less importance.
    Ive absolutely no doubt at all that Milibands initial foray will be in the Gaza / Lebanon and the question of Netanyahu.

    I can see Burnham and this Government being far more strident on Israel, possibly sanctioning, stopping military Contracts etc.

    Its quite conceivable that France, Spain, UK and other EU Countries could seek a Global Arrest Warrant for Netanyahu and some of his Associates like the Mayor of New York is planning, IF he ever sets foot on soil.

    That would play incredibly well with the Muslim vote, the general left vote, much of the moral majority vote especially from the son of a leading Jewish thinker who fled the Nazis. It would also greatly assist the majority moderate Jewish Population in the UK to have full support against anti semitism and to root out the minority yet increasingly vocal uber zionists who are as responsible for anti semitism as any non Jew.

  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,689
    Be interesting whether the south west/south coast-ish gets a look in.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,311

    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Isn't it interesting how Labour are taking all their new support from other left-wing parties.
    He's politically astute. Hillsborough, homelessness, attacking neoliberalism, saying not enough on Palestine, Fatch etc.

    That's what they all want to hear.
    Yes indeed. Reform will be very encouraged to see their vote holding firm against Burnham. But it's only one poll.
    It's also a very early poll and it's going to take a while for Andy's statements to reach everyone.

    I suspect that 28% for Reform is also the most they will get as they are seriously transfer vote unfriendly. Add on all the gory details still to come about Reform's finance sources and an early general election where those stories can be used to destroy the Reform vote makes sense...
    You can see Burnham's strategy for his 10 year plan.

    Consolidate a left-wing vote in the low 30s and let the two right-wing parties checkmate each other.

    It has a shot at working.
    He would need to defuse some of the anger from the right at the Labour government. At the moment I would expect quite a lot of right-wing anti-Labour tactical voting.
    But wouldn't that cancel each other out?

    Reform have made themselves so transfer unfriendly, I don't think I could touch them now.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,004

    eek said:

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    The big risk for any civil servant moving north is that No 10 North is abolished by the next PM, possibly in just three years, and then they will need to buy a house in/near London again.
    I would rather see Number 10 South abolished.
    I'm wondering when Parliament reaches the point that the can, can no longer be kicked further and the decision is finally made over how it's repaired / replaced and where the replacement is built...
    Most successful countries separate their political capital from their financial one/major city.

    It is long overdue we do the same.

    Move all but local politics and all but local civil servants out of London.
    England, and then the UK, has been heavily centralised on London for around a thousand years. Shifting that is unlikely to occur due to the centre of mass that's built up, including excessive transport spending (compared to everywhere else), cultural sites, and the fact that moving the financial (or political) centre will take a serious concerted effort.

    Not only would that require substantial, and consistent, political will, it would immediately face stiff resistance from both vested London interests and any rival city who doesn't want the designated 'new centre' to benefit.

    Anyway, just a flying visit. Morris Dancer away!
    Sorry, Morris, but that's nonsense.

    For example, the economic centre of gravity during the industrial revolution shifted massively northwards.
    https://jamesjgleeson.wordpress.com/2016/08/21/tracking-englands-shifting-centre-of-gravity-over-time/
  • interestedinterested Posts: 66

    eek said:

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    The big risk for any civil servant moving north is that No 10 North is abolished by the next PM, possibly in just three years, and then they will need to buy a house in/near London again.
    I would rather see Number 10 South abolished.
    I'm wondering when Parliament reaches the point that the can, can no longer be kicked further and the decision is finally made over how it's repaired / replaced and where the replacement is built...
    Most successful countries separate their political capital from their financial one/major city.

    It is long overdue we do the same.

    Move all but local politics and all but local civil servants out of London.
    England, and then the UK, has been heavily centralised on London for around a thousand years. Shifting that is unlikely to occur due to the centre of mass that's built up, including excessive transport spending (compared to everywhere else), cultural sites, and the fact that moving the financial (or political) centre will take a serious concerted effort.

    Not only would that require substantial, and consistent, political will, it would immediately face stiff resistance from both vested London interests and any rival city who doesn't want the designated 'new centre' to benefit.

    Anyway, just a flying visit. Morris Dancer away!
    Apart from extra cost I can’t see number 10 has any impact at all. Just a headline.
  • RichardrRichardr Posts: 110
    Andy_JS said:

    eek said:

    Just seen that the Widdecombe murder trial is scheduled for June next year.

    We need more courts open and more judges working longer hours. Justice needs to be faster.

    June next year is remarkably fast. I've seen rape trials being booked well into 2027. Fraud trials are already into 2028,,,
    The more serious the crime is, the faster the trial is usually heard.
    Or, the more likely it is to attract media attention the faster it is heard.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,434
    AnneJGP said:

    Be interesting whether the south west/south coast-ish gets a look in.

    Sort of below the Wash/Bristol Channel line? Quite a lot of not-nice-enough-to-be-Lib-Dem places.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,661

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    So to provide ID cards for those without passports the cost is say £1.5bn, the cost to give everyone else 1 is say £200m more..

    So you are wasting £200m and creating an authoritarian nonsense that should not exist, lose/lose.

    Both cheaper and less authoritarian not to do that. Win/win.
    Nope - I'm making it easier - as the rules will be standard, to prove right to work status check the ID card..

    But again - I'm pleased to see you agree that without something a lot of people have problems getting a job because of their lack of easy to verify ID..
    The rules already are standard. You object that some people don't have something, so want to create a universal nonsense rather than fill in the gap - when you can just fill in the gap for less without doing that.

    There is no problem that needs fixing with a universal ID. Just do a solution for those who lack it, free at the point of use.
    The easiest would be to issue driving licences to non-drivers on request
    Except a driving licence doesn't confirm a person has the right to work in the UK.
    Photo ID is not legally mandated for proof of right to work, birth certificate and NI number combined are sufficient.
    And what tells me that the person named on that birth certificate is the person presenting that birth certificate...

    Been there - know people who were defrauded and handed a £20k fine.
    Photo IDs are available for free for elections for those who don't have drivers licences, what stops that being used with a birth certificate?
    I risk a £60k fine, what protection do I have given that that photo id is issued for elections alone.
    If you've done your due diligence and taken photo ID, birth certificate and NI number then that should be it. That is more than the law requires.

    If you do what the law requires there should be no fine. If there is, then fixing that is better than issuing a new ID card.
    You best start campaigning to fix the law then because at the moment it's really simple

    No means of doing remote verification (i.e. no passport) - next candidate please...

    It doesn't matter what the law allows, most people want a risk free approach at the cheapest price possible...
    So we're settled then that there's no need for introducing universal ID.

    You're tackling the problem at the wrong end.
    No I'm pointing out a problem in reality that you don't seem to care about because you've got your house a job and a passport.
    We agree a problem exists, we disagree on the solution.

    The problem is authoritarian regulations being misapplied to address an unrelated problem.

    Your solution is more authoritarianism. My solution is less.
    I'm sorry but I haven't got a clue what your solution to companies insisting on rejecting anyone without passports is?

    And remember i'm looking at this from the employer side of things - I'm facing a £60,000 fine if I screw up - so how do you make my life easier and allow me to employ someone without said passport removing all risk of that fine..
    Preference 1: Abolish the requirement for checks in the first place and tackle the issue at source. Anyone in this country legally should be allowed to work legally.

    Preference 2: Liberalise the law so that any firm that has taken correct documentation required has no risk of fines.

    Preference 3: Offer ID to anyone who needs it, free at the point of use.

    Not needed at all: A new authoritarian universal ID or database.
    1. Your second paragraph overrides the first - how do I know they are legally in the UK - that requires Id.
    2. doesn't fix anything. - because I still don't know if the paperwork belongs to the person doing the work - this is how Uber Eats and co have got away with things for so long..
    3. that requires all the steps identical to issuing a passport - see @DecrepiterJohnL for the issues you've got there - even getting the paperwork to apply can cost money.

    None of those things are solving the problem I have which is anyone screws up I get a £60,000 fine.
    1. No it does not. It should not be an employers job to be migration officers and never used to be. If they are in the country, they should be able to work. If not, that should not be on the employer to deal with. There never used to be a duty on employers to check and I would liberalise back to that.


    2. So? That is all that is required and if taken there should be no offence. Better yet, do not require anything, see 1.

    3. So? So too would your scheme, so that is not a counter argument. And if your scheme does not, it can exist without universality too.

    All 3 deal with the problem of a fine. Abolish fines and you have zero risk of a fine.
    On 1 your second sentence says only people legally in the UK can work - yet not everyone in the UK is legally here even ignoring the people legally here who can't work.
    No it is not. Read it again.

    Saying anyone here legally should be able to work != saying anyone not here legally should not. Nor does it = saying that it is the employers responsibility to ensure they don't.

    The UK existed just fine without this mandate to check ID that never existed at all through any of eg Thatcher's term in office.

    The solution to illiberalism is to liberalise, not add more illiberalism.

    It should not be an employers responsibility to be border patrol, and never used to be.
    Um we didn't have millions of illegal workers here when Thatcher was in power - heck for most of her time in power it was far more likely that brits were working illegally in West Germany then vice versa
    So the system we have today is not working then.

    What we have is not working is not a reason to continue with what we have.
    It's a reason why you can't simply remove the fines...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,311
    MattW said:

    Hmmm.

    What would not renovating the Palace of Westminster pay for?

    The proposed current budget is £15.6 billion to £39.2 billion.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgp2pzqr84o

    Nothing. Since the Palace of Westminster would then suffer a catastrophic fire or collapse that, as well as a real risk of killing people, would require rebuilding or restoring at even greater cost, not to mention the loss of centuries of heritage.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,487
    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    So to provide ID cards for those without passports the cost is say £1.5bn, the cost to give everyone else 1 is say £200m more..

    So you are wasting £200m and creating an authoritarian nonsense that should not exist, lose/lose.

    Both cheaper and less authoritarian not to do that. Win/win.
    Nope - I'm making it easier - as the rules will be standard, to prove right to work status check the ID card..

    But again - I'm pleased to see you agree that without something a lot of people have problems getting a job because of their lack of easy to verify ID..
    The rules already are standard. You object that some people don't have something, so want to create a universal nonsense rather than fill in the gap - when you can just fill in the gap for less without doing that.

    There is no problem that needs fixing with a universal ID. Just do a solution for those who lack it, free at the point of use.
    The easiest would be to issue driving licences to non-drivers on request
    Except a driving licence doesn't confirm a person has the right to work in the UK.
    Photo ID is not legally mandated for proof of right to work, birth certificate and NI number combined are sufficient.
    And what tells me that the person named on that birth certificate is the person presenting that birth certificate...

    Been there - know people who were defrauded and handed a £20k fine.
    Photo IDs are available for free for elections for those who don't have drivers licences, what stops that being used with a birth certificate?
    I risk a £60k fine, what protection do I have given that that photo id is issued for elections alone.
    If you've done your due diligence and taken photo ID, birth certificate and NI number then that should be it. That is more than the law requires.

    If you do what the law requires there should be no fine. If there is, then fixing that is better than issuing a new ID card.
    You best start campaigning to fix the law then because at the moment it's really simple

    No means of doing remote verification (i.e. no passport) - next candidate please...

    It doesn't matter what the law allows, most people want a risk free approach at the cheapest price possible...
    So we're settled then that there's no need for introducing universal ID.

    You're tackling the problem at the wrong end.
    No I'm pointing out a problem in reality that you don't seem to care about because you've got your house a job and a passport.
    We agree a problem exists, we disagree on the solution.

    The problem is authoritarian regulations being misapplied to address an unrelated problem.

    Your solution is more authoritarianism. My solution is less.
    I'm sorry but I haven't got a clue what your solution to companies insisting on rejecting anyone without passports is?

    And remember i'm looking at this from the employer side of things - I'm facing a £60,000 fine if I screw up - so how do you make my life easier and allow me to employ someone without said passport removing all risk of that fine..
    Preference 1: Abolish the requirement for checks in the first place and tackle the issue at source. Anyone in this country legally should be allowed to work legally.

    Preference 2: Liberalise the law so that any firm that has taken correct documentation required has no risk of fines.

    Preference 3: Offer ID to anyone who needs it, free at the point of use.

    Not needed at all: A new authoritarian universal ID or database.
    1. Your second paragraph overrides the first - how do I know they are legally in the UK - that requires Id.
    2. doesn't fix anything. - because I still don't know if the paperwork belongs to the person doing the work - this is how Uber Eats and co have got away with things for so long..
    3. that requires all the steps identical to issuing a passport - see @DecrepiterJohnL for the issues you've got there - even getting the paperwork to apply can cost money.

    None of those things are solving the problem I have which is anyone screws up I get a £60,000 fine.
    1. No it does not. It should not be an employers job to be migration officers and never used to be. If they are in the country, they should be able to work. If not, that should not be on the employer to deal with. There never used to be a duty on employers to check and I would liberalise back to that.


    2. So? That is all that is required and if taken there should be no offence. Better yet, do not require anything, see 1.

    3. So? So too would your scheme, so that is not a counter argument. And if your scheme does not, it can exist without universality too.

    All 3 deal with the problem of a fine. Abolish fines and you have zero risk of a fine.
    On 1 your second sentence says only people legally in the UK can work - yet not everyone in the UK is legally here even ignoring the people legally here who can't work.
    No it is not. Read it again.

    Saying anyone here legally should be able to work != saying anyone not here legally should not. Nor does it = saying that it is the employers responsibility to ensure they don't.

    The UK existed just fine without this mandate to check ID that never existed at all through any of eg Thatcher's term in office.

    The solution to illiberalism is to liberalise, not add more illiberalism.

    It should not be an employers responsibility to be border patrol, and never used to be.
    Um we didn't have millions of illegal workers here when Thatcher was in power - heck for most of her time in power it was far more likely that brits were working illegally in West Germany then vice versa
    So the system we have today is not working then.

    What we have is not working is not a reason to continue with what we have.
    It's a reason why you can't simply remove the fines...
    You can. Parliament is sovereign.

    Instead of outsourcing border control to employers, a policy that has utterly failed, stop doubling down on that policy and try something different.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 6,164
    eek said:

    Just seen that the Widdecombe murder trial is scheduled for June next year.

    We need more courts open and more judges working longer hours. Justice needs to be faster.

    June next year is remarkably fast. I've seen rape trials being booked well into 2027. Fraud trials are already into 2028,,,
    The bureaucracy and barriers to a faster justice system need to be removed.

    Kerry has has two court appearances today. Firstly before the magistrate and then before a judge. For a case of murder, we should be skipping the Magistrate Court and crack in at an appropriate level.

    Simplify the process, get more courts and judges into action for more of each working day and build more prison capacity so that convicts serve the time to which they were sentenced.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,791

    She must have been terrified/hurt at the end.

    Ann Widdecombe was struck by a hammer 21 times.

    That's fucking disgusting.
    That trans person in Scotland, who made those vile comments, got his wish then.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 48,247

    In the US, "soul" has a meaning somewhat different meaning than in the UK. For example, "souls to the polls" means, roughly, that black churches should encourage their members to vote.

    And, of course, there is soul music: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_music

    I don't suppose there will be any parallel for the first, but I hope that Northern Soul's political success will produce some music worth listening to. Any evidence of that, so far? (If Wikipedia is right, the movement with that name has a way to go.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_soul )

    Northern Soul is almost entirely 60s US soul music very much worth listening to, though away from the Motown mainstream. It's pretty much entered the UK cultural consciousness to the point of the Proms having an evening dedicated to it a couple of years ago. Was a bit bland compared to the originals but that's the Proms fer ye.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,984

    IanB2 said:

    Horrific details of the murder of Anne Widdecombe. He's been to Westminster Magistrates and is up in the Old Bailey this afternoon? Hopefully he pleads guilty, her family have been through enough.Utter scumbag.

    The remarkable thing is how quickly - after one false arrest - they caught him. I’m thinking either he left a trail astoundingly easy to follow, or our secret services were on to him already? Assuming he is guilty as charged, obvs.
    It's probably very easy to find victims, and then very easy to find the perpetrators these days.

    My takeaway: fortify your property if you're a public figure.
    Particularly if you're on a property show that week touring your house.
    I do worry for Andy B. Plenty of folk locally know exactly where he lives.
    Not sure remaining there is feasible in the current climate sadly.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,791
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    I hope this is taken the right way but what is the fecking point of this? In the modern world of online meetings you do not need to be in the same city, let alone the room. It might have been a bigger thing 40 years ago, but now?

    The BBC moved a lot of Salford which just meant the talent all kept their London homes and got flats/houses up north. What was the point?
    To reset the balance of the country's political geography.
    I suspect it will be more effective than you imagine.
    It is not in itself devolution, though. Rather the opposite, it may be used as a reason for not devolving power now that the central authority has an outpost in Manchester.

    And why Manchester other than that's where Burnham lives? If this is such a good idea, why not Birmingham, Ilfracombe, Newcastle or even Clacton? At least it's not Brussels to Strasbourg. But it is getting close to the soft corruption we used to look askance at abroad: vote for me, for public munificence in your area.
    There is a reason why Treasury North is sat a 5 minute walk away from a station with twice hourly trains to central London.
    I wonder how much this ‘Westminster of the North’ will cost and if a cost benefit analysis has even been undertaken while plotting against SKS

    The news was reporting civil servants are being offered relocation packages to consider a move ‘North ‘. I’m guessing these won’t be basic packages
  • interestedinterested Posts: 66

    AnneJGP said:

    Be interesting whether the south west/south coast-ish gets a look in.

    Sort of below the Wash/Bristol Channel line? Quite a lot of not-nice-enough-to-be-Lib-Dem places.
    I wonder whether all the focus on Manchester as the north is just going to alienate other northerners in Leeds, Newcastle etc no to mention those in the Midlands.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 41,027
    edited 3:31PM

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    Just Manchester? Why not all of the other cities in the North/Midlands/South West/East Anglia,etc.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,004
    The European ‘catenaccio’
    If we do not invest, if we cannot offer a true single market, we will have little negotiating power

    https://english.elpais.com/economy-and-business/2026-07-10/the-european-catenaccio.html
    The footballing catenaccio was a strategy, originally developed in Switzerland and popularized in Italy, that prioritized airtight defense and strict man-marking. The idea was that there was no need to have the ball and build the play; it was enough to protect your own goal, counterattack, and hope to catch the opponent by surprise. It is a passive strategy, now largely obsolete, used only by teams that see themselves as inferior. Teams that see themselves as superior want to be aggressive and keep possession so they can dictate the pace of the game. Catenaccio is a strategy for not losing, not a strategy for winning.

    European economic policy is a version of catenaccio, revealing either a sense of inferiority — or, even worse, a political preference for being inferior — relative to the United States and China. Playing constantly on the defensive makes progress very difficult.

    China’s economic strategy, which the United States has largely begun to emulate in recent years, has been clear over the past decade: invest whatever public and private resources are necessary to become a global leader in strategic sectors. Of course, this has been accompanied by a strategy of protecting the domestic industry — but without massive investment, protection alone would have achieved nothing. This investment has benefited from a huge internal market, where companies can grow and develop until they reach the scale required to become world leaders, as well as fierce competition that encourages innovation. All of this has been supported by subsidies and public infrastructure aimed at strategic industries...

    ..Europe, however, remained complacent in the face of China’s rise — particularly Germany’s automobile industry — and European countries remain more concerned with monitoring their neighbors’ fiscal policies than with investing to close the technological gap with the United States and China.

    In 2024, the Draghi Report recommended increasing European investment by 5% of GDP annually for a decade, financed in part through eurobonds, in order to close the productivity gap with the United States. Two years have passed; only about 20% of the recommendations have been implemented, and the increase in investment has been minimal.

    The same has happened with the recommendations of the Letta Report on removing barriers within the single market. Barely 10% have been implemented, and Europe still has a nationally fragmented internal market that severely limits business growth and productivity.


    The UK, of course, has exiled itself to the touchline.
    We're not even on the pitch.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 41,027

    In the US, "soul" has a meaning somewhat different meaning than in the UK. For example, "souls to the polls" means, roughly, that black churches should encourage their members to vote.

    And, of course, there is soul music: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_music

    I don't suppose there will be any parallel for the first, but I hope that Northern Soul's political success will produce some music worth listening to. Any evidence of that, so far? (If Wikipedia is right, the movement with that name has a way to go.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_soul )

    Northern Soul has produced lots of great songs over the years.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,302
    Brixian59 said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT: Good morning.

    Burnham’s coronation has brought me back to PB after a long absence.

    Healey was the obvious choice for Chancellor.
    I’m surprised the commentariat are surprised:
    Miliband too dangerous; Mahmood no proper experience.

    Haigh becoming Minister for Policy (essentially) also a good move, despite my misgivings over her old fraud conviction. She was one of the few Starmer appointments with a working policy brain.

    Streeting to Defence - interesting; Phillipson sidelined - good; new AI ministry - excellent.

    In other areas, I have a more mixed opinion. Too many firings of perfectly serviceable ministers, just because they were Starmerites, if such a thing ever really existed. Perhaps more accurate to say they were not firm Burnhamites. The new government is thereby “clubbier” than any I remember - this can be seen in the sheer concentration of Northern ministers.

    The electricity announcement shows that Burnham is politically canny in a way that Starmer could never be. It’s a rounding error on the national accounts, and it signals that the new government is “on your side”.
    This is a positive start.

    The anti-case for Miliband's appointment.
    Not entirely unfair.

    Miliband's central role in nixing #UK (& thus, US) response to chemical weapons use in #Syria had **huge** global impacts:

    - #Russia spurred on to invade #Ukraine
    - Triggered the #Syria refugee crisis... which fueled far-right populism...

    https://x.com/Charles_Lister/status/2079571195322597535
    You can make that case. I can see some merit in it. But people equally make the case that the Western intervention in Libya, which helped to topple Gaddafi, is responsible for the chaos there, and the contribution that makes to the migrant crisis. And that intervention succeeded on its own terms - it prevented a slaughter in Benghazi, and led to the fall of Gaddafi.

    What might the consequences had been if the UK and US had conducted airstrikes on Syria, and they had failed to prevent the continued use of chemical weapons? That might have had even worse consequences in terms of diminishing Western deterrence power.

    And I think it was Biden sticking to Trump's plan to withdraw from Afghanistan, and the humiliating fall of Kabul that resulted, that did most to persuade Putin he could invade Ukraine in 2022. The experience gained by Russia fighting for Assad in Syria was, I think, of less importance.
    Ive absolutely no doubt at all that Milibands initial foray will be in the Gaza / Lebanon and the question of Netanyahu.

    I can see Burnham and this Government being far more strident on Israel, possibly sanctioning, stopping military Contracts etc.

    Its quite conceivable that France, Spain, UK and other EU Countries could seek a Global Arrest Warrant for Netanyahu and some of his Associates like the Mayor of New York is planning, IF he ever sets foot on soil.

    That would play incredibly well with the Muslim vote, the general left vote, much of the moral majority vote especially from the son of a leading Jewish thinker who fled the Nazis. It would also greatly assist the majority moderate Jewish Population in the UK to have full support against anti semitism and to root out the minority yet increasingly vocal uber zionists who are as responsible for anti semitism as any non Jew.

    I can't see any of this happening. There's a general election due in Israel this autumn. Obsessing about Miliband being Jewish is, well, obsessive and not in a good way. Most people are not defined by their ethnicity or religion, and most people includes Ed Miliband. No-one said that David Lammy when Foreign Secretary could only deal with African and Caribbean nations, or Yvette Cooper was confined to Europe. It's not even offensive, it's absurd.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,311
    dixiedean said:

    IanB2 said:

    Horrific details of the murder of Anne Widdecombe. He's been to Westminster Magistrates and is up in the Old Bailey this afternoon? Hopefully he pleads guilty, her family have been through enough.Utter scumbag.

    The remarkable thing is how quickly - after one false arrest - they caught him. I’m thinking either he left a trail astoundingly easy to follow, or our secret services were on to him already? Assuming he is guilty as charged, obvs.
    It's probably very easy to find victims, and then very easy to find the perpetrators these days.

    My takeaway: fortify your property if you're a public figure.
    Particularly if you're on a property show that week touring your house.
    I do worry for Andy B. Plenty of folk locally know exactly where he lives.
    Not sure remaining there is feasible in the current climate sadly.
    He'll be ok (whilst he's in office, at least) because a net wil be thrown around him.

    It's the more controversial minor politicians who are vulnerable.

    To be fair, I think Farage has reason to be frightened, and with some justification.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,984

    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Isn't it interesting how Labour are taking all their new support from other left-wing parties.
    He's politically astute. Hillsborough, homelessness, attacking neoliberalism, saying not enough on Palestine, Fatch etc.

    That's what they all want to hear.
    Yes indeed. Reform will be very encouraged to see their vote holding firm against Burnham. But it's only one poll.
    It's also a very early poll and it's going to take a while for Andy's statements to reach everyone.

    I suspect that 28% for Reform is also the most they will get as they are seriously transfer vote unfriendly. Add on all the gory details still to come about Reform's finance sources and an early general election where those stories can be used to destroy the Reform vote makes sense...
    You can see Burnham's strategy for his 10 year plan.

    Consolidate a left-wing vote in the low 30s and let the two right-wing parties checkmate each other.

    It has a shot at working.
    He would need to defuse some of the anger from the right at the Labour government. At the moment I would expect quite a lot of right-wing anti-Labour tactical voting.
    But wouldn't that cancel each other out?

    Reform have made themselves so transfer unfriendly, I don't think I could touch them now.
    The 2024 Tory vote in Makerfield broke only 53-38 for Reform over Burnham. That's not a great margin (admittedly the stark difference in quality of candidate won't be repeated often).
    Far from all Reform voters would go Tory either.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,968
    On topic, more or less: This header reminded me of some thoughts in an Orwell essay I read long ago:
    But when you go to the industrial North you are conscious, quite apart from the unfamiliar scenery, of entering a strange country. This is partly because of certain real differences which do exist, but still more because of the North-South antithesis which has been rubbed into us for such a long time past. There exists in England a curious cult of Northemness, sort of Northern snobbishness. A Yorkshireman in the South will always take care to let you know that he regards you as an inferior. If you ask him why, he will explain that it is only in the North that life is ‘real’ life, that the industrial work done in the North is the only ‘real’ work, that the North is inhabited by ‘real’ people, the South merely by rentiers and their parasites. The Northerner has ‘grit’, he is grim, ‘dour’, plucky, warm-hearted, and democratic; the Southerner is snobbish, effeminate, and lazy — that at any rate is the theory. Hence the Southerner goes north, at any rate for the first time, with the vague inferiority-complex of a civilized man venturing among savages, while the Yorkshireman, like the Scotchman, comes to London in the spirit of a barbarian out for loot.
    source: https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/north/english/e_north

    Was Orwell right then? If so, is there still some truth to those perceptions?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,302

    In the US, "soul" has a meaning somewhat different meaning than in the UK. For example, "souls to the polls" means, roughly, that black churches should encourage their members to vote.

    And, of course, there is soul music: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_music

    I don't suppose there will be any parallel for the first, but I hope that Northern Soul's political success will produce some music worth listening to. Any evidence of that, so far? (If Wikipedia is right, the movement with that name has a way to go.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_soul )

    Northern soul is not a racial or political thing and was a minority interest even in its heyday.
  • StarryStarry Posts: 243

    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Isn't it interesting how Labour are taking all their new support from other left-wing parties.
    He's politically astute. Hillsborough, homelessness, attacking neoliberalism, saying not enough on Palestine, Fatch etc.

    That's what they all want to hear.
    Yes indeed. Reform will be very encouraged to see their vote holding firm against Burnham. But it's only one poll.
    It's also a very early poll and it's going to take a while for Andy's statements to reach everyone.

    I suspect that 28% for Reform is also the most they will get as they are seriously transfer vote unfriendly. Add on all the gory details still to come about Reform's finance sources and an early general election where those stories can be used to destroy the Reform vote makes sense...
    You can see Burnham's strategy for his 10 year plan.

    Consolidate a left-wing vote in the low 30s and let the two right-wing parties checkmate each other.

    It has a shot at working.
    He would need to defuse some of the anger from the right at the Labour government. At the moment I would expect quite a lot of right-wing anti-Labour tactical voting.
    But wouldn't that cancel each other out?

    Reform have made themselves so transfer unfriendly, I don't think I could touch them now.
    The Right have never really taken to tactical voting. Perhaps the odd by-election. I can't see those currently saying they'd vote Tory choosing to vote for a party that would make the Conservatives irrelevant either.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,688
    The two pictures so far published of the accused in the Widdecombe case don't appear to be the same man.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,927
    edited 3:39PM
    viewcode said:

    Those of you following the ipaper's series on "Who Broke Britain" (https://inews.co.uk/topic/who-broke-britain ) may be interested in the list and links below

    List
    Sir James Bevan (shit in the water - failure of the regulator model)
    Sir Chris Whitty (lockdown)
    Tony Benn (party leaders elected by the membership)
    Martin Lewis (saving in cash rather than investing in stocks)
    Irene Rosenfeld (lying takeovers by foreigners)
    Morgan McSweeney (faction fighter who alienated friends and failed to conciliate enemies)
    Steven Bartlett (rise of the podcast, death of journalism)
    Mary Whitehouse (rise of the pressure group)
    Nigel Lawson (privatisation)

    Links
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/james-bevan-what-he-did-to-this-country-4253589
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/boris-johnson-wrecked-britain-man-left-deeper-scars-4326071
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/hardcore-socialist-ruinous-idea-why-liz-truss-pm-4353094
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/martin-lewis-money-saving-expert-cost-britons-billions-4356949
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/american-woman-ripped-heart-cadbury-4448966
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/shadowy-maverick-pulled-labours-strings-sunk-starmer-4496353
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/steven-bartlett-glorified-pr-man-making-britain-worse-4448967
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/anti-sex-anti-fun-godmother-nimbys-gummed-britain-4615659
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/tory-sold-britains-greatest-assets-take-back-control-4634942

    I don't think Chris Whitty should be taking all the blame (if its even due). I don't recall the world pushing back that hard on lockdown, other than an awful lot of people with perfect 20:20 hindsight.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,715

    The two pictures so far published of the accused in the Widdecombe case don't appear to be the same man.

    There is also a court sketch in the BBC news website story.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,984

    On topic, more or less: This header reminded me of some thoughts in an Orwell essay I read long ago:

    But when you go to the industrial North you are conscious, quite apart from the unfamiliar scenery, of entering a strange country. This is partly because of certain real differences which do exist, but still more because of the North-South antithesis which has been rubbed into us for such a long time past. There exists in England a curious cult of Northemness, sort of Northern snobbishness. A Yorkshireman in the South will always take care to let you know that he regards you as an inferior. If you ask him why, he will explain that it is only in the North that life is ‘real’ life, that the industrial work done in the North is the only ‘real’ work, that the North is inhabited by ‘real’ people, the South merely by rentiers and their parasites. The Northerner has ‘grit’, he is grim, ‘dour’, plucky, warm-hearted, and democratic; the Southerner is snobbish, effeminate, and lazy — that at any rate is the theory. Hence the Southerner goes north, at any rate for the first time, with the vague inferiority-complex of a civilized man venturing among savages, while the Yorkshireman, like the Scotchman, comes to London in the spirit of a barbarian out for loot.
    source: https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/north/english/e_north

    Was Orwell right then? If so, is there still some truth to those perceptions?

    Yes. But that's very much Yorkshire. The people of the northwest aren't grim or dour in the slightest.
    A vast number of our top comedians come from west of the Pennines.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,302

    eek said:

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    The big risk for any civil servant moving north is that No 10 North is abolished by the next PM, possibly in just three years, and then they will need to buy a house in/near London again.
    I would rather see Number 10 South abolished.
    I'm wondering when Parliament reaches the point that the can, can no longer be kicked further and the decision is finally made over how it's repaired / replaced and where the replacement is built...
    Most successful countries separate their political capital from their financial one/major city.

    It is long overdue we do the same.

    Move all but local politics and all but local civil servants out of London.
    England, and then the UK, has been heavily centralised on London for around a thousand years. Shifting that is unlikely to occur due to the centre of mass that's built up, including excessive transport spending (compared to everywhere else), cultural sites, and the fact that moving the financial (or political) centre will take a serious concerted effort.

    Not only would that require substantial, and consistent, political will, it would immediately face stiff resistance from both vested London interests and any rival city who doesn't want the designated 'new centre' to benefit.

    Anyway, just a flying visit. Morris Dancer away!
    We need to create new towns outside and away from London, with decent transport links, infrastructure and employers. We really do need to end over-centralisation not of political power but of economic activity. The evidence for political devolution helping in this regard is limited (sorry to come over all Andrew Neil). Even in Manchester, it's London that has pushed money and jobs into the region, not the local authorities or even the ex-Mayor.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,688
    carnforth said:

    The two pictures so far published of the accused in the Widdecombe case don't appear to be the same man.

    There is also a court sketch in the BBC news website story.
    That's one of the ones I meant. The other picture (can't find ATM) shows a chap with almost shoulder length hair and a beard. Different shape face, too.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 57,602

    carnforth said:

    The two pictures so far published of the accused in the Widdecombe case don't appear to be the same man.

    There is also a court sketch in the BBC news website story.
    That's one of the ones I meant. The other picture (can't find ATM) shows a chap with almost shoulder length hair and a beard. Different shape face, too.
    That picture is from 2022
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,938

    carnforth said:

    The two pictures so far published of the accused in the Widdecombe case don't appear to be the same man.

    There is also a court sketch in the BBC news website story.
    That's one of the ones I meant. The other picture (can't find ATM) shows a chap with almost shoulder length hair and a beard. Different shape face, too.
    It could just be a terrible court sketch.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,688
    Foxy said:

    carnforth said:

    The two pictures so far published of the accused in the Widdecombe case don't appear to be the same man.

    There is also a court sketch in the BBC news website story.
    That's one of the ones I meant. The other picture (can't find ATM) shows a chap with almost shoulder length hair and a beard. Different shape face, too.
    That picture is from 2022
    Ah, fair enough.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 6,164
    Foss said:

    carnforth said:

    The two pictures so far published of the accused in the Widdecombe case don't appear to be the same man.

    There is also a court sketch in the BBC news website story.
    That's one of the ones I meant. The other picture (can't find ATM) shows a chap with almost shoulder length hair and a beard. Different shape face, too.
    It could just be a terrible court sketch.
    The photo with long hair is from 4 years ago from what I recall.

    Which easily explains the differences. People change
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,715

    carnforth said:

    The two pictures so far published of the accused in the Widdecombe case don't appear to be the same man.

    There is also a court sketch in the BBC news website story.
    That's one of the ones I meant. The other picture (can't find ATM) shows a chap with almost shoulder length hair and a beard. Different shape face, too.
    Ah, I thought you meant the CCTV picture of him getting into the car in Rotherham.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 14,653

    Just seen that the Widdecombe murder trial is scheduled for June next year.

    We need more courts open and more judges working longer hours. Justice needs to be faster.

    The first plea hearing is in November, which is absolutely ridiculous.
    To be held on remand for nearly a year is an injustice too. Innocent before proven guilty doesn’t mean much when you can get locked up for that long before being put before a jury.
  • SonofContrarianSonofContrarian Posts: 305

    viewcode said:

    Those of you following the ipaper's series on "Who Broke Britain" (https://inews.co.uk/topic/who-broke-britain ) may be interested in the list and links below

    List
    Sir James Bevan (shit in the water - failure of the regulator model)
    Sir Chris Whitty (lockdown)
    Tony Benn (party leaders elected by the membership)
    Martin Lewis (saving in cash rather than investing in stocks)
    Irene Rosenfeld (lying takeovers by foreigners)
    Morgan McSweeney (faction fighter who alienated friends and failed to conciliate enemies)
    Steven Bartlett (rise of the podcast, death of journalism)
    Mary Whitehouse (rise of the pressure group)
    Nigel Lawson (privatisation)

    Links
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/james-bevan-what-he-did-to-this-country-4253589
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/boris-johnson-wrecked-britain-man-left-deeper-scars-4326071
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/hardcore-socialist-ruinous-idea-why-liz-truss-pm-4353094
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/martin-lewis-money-saving-expert-cost-britons-billions-4356949
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/american-woman-ripped-heart-cadbury-4448966
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/shadowy-maverick-pulled-labours-strings-sunk-starmer-4496353
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/steven-bartlett-glorified-pr-man-making-britain-worse-4448967
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/anti-sex-anti-fun-godmother-nimbys-gummed-britain-4615659
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/tory-sold-britains-greatest-assets-take-back-control-4634942

    I don't think Chris Whitty should be taking all the blame (if its even due). I don't recall the world pushing back that hard on lockdown, other than an awful lot of people with perfect 20:20 hindsight.
    Screaming at South African officials for daring to suggest Omicron variant wasn't causing their medical system much of an issue and wearing a mask outside whilst getting a ☕ were just a couple of examples of Whittys idiocy..🧐
  • MattWMattW Posts: 34,094
    Ructions at the (other) Damned United.

    Manchester United fans have reacted with fury after "thousands" had their season-ticket accounts restricted.

    The action follows an attempt by United to identify potential ticket touts and those breaking the club's ticketing terms and conditions.

    But supporters have told BBC Sport that those who have been informed their season tickets are now at risk of being revoked include many of the club's most loyal followers, and insist that the majority have done nothing wrong.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c2elxzrpw4eo
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,688

    Foss said:

    carnforth said:

    The two pictures so far published of the accused in the Widdecombe case don't appear to be the same man.

    There is also a court sketch in the BBC news website story.
    That's one of the ones I meant. The other picture (can't find ATM) shows a chap with almost shoulder length hair and a beard. Different shape face, too.
    It could just be a terrible court sketch.
    The photo with long hair is from 4 years ago from what I recall.

    Which easily explains the differences. People change
    True, and he was 24 then. He's 28 now. People can start to look 'heavier' as they go through their 20's.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,302

    FT Exclusive: A consortium of investors led by Amit Bhatia and backed by the Mittal family is in talks to buy a significant minority stake in Liverpool Football Club, in a deal that would value the English Premier League side at more than $6bn.

    ft.trib.al/GZChuKL

    QPR is buying Liverpool?
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 820
    edited 3:55PM
    dixiedean said:

    On topic, more or less: This header reminded me of some thoughts in an Orwell essay I read long ago:

    But when you go to the industrial North you are conscious, quite apart from the unfamiliar scenery, of entering a strange country. This is partly because of certain real differences which do exist, but still more because of the North-South antithesis which has been rubbed into us for such a long time past. There exists in England a curious cult of Northemness, sort of Northern snobbishness. A Yorkshireman in the South will always take care to let you know that he regards you as an inferior. If you ask him why, he will explain that it is only in the North that life is ‘real’ life, that the industrial work done in the North is the only ‘real’ work, that the North is inhabited by ‘real’ people, the South merely by rentiers and their parasites. The Northerner has ‘grit’, he is grim, ‘dour’, plucky, warm-hearted, and democratic; the Southerner is snobbish, effeminate, and lazy — that at any rate is the theory. Hence the Southerner goes north, at any rate for the first time, with the vague inferiority-complex of a civilized man venturing among savages, while the Yorkshireman, like the Scotchman, comes to London in the spirit of a barbarian out for loot
    source: https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/north/english/e_north

    Was Orwell right then? If so, is there still some truth to those perceptions?

    Yes. But that's very much Yorkshire. The people of the northwest aren't grim or dour in the slightest.
    A vast number of our top comedians come from west of the Pennines.
    Or the correct side of the Pennines, as my mother would say.

    Yorkshireman: says what he likes, and likes what he bloody well says.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,927

    viewcode said:

    Those of you following the ipaper's series on "Who Broke Britain" (https://inews.co.uk/topic/who-broke-britain ) may be interested in the list and links below

    List
    Sir James Bevan (shit in the water - failure of the regulator model)
    Sir Chris Whitty (lockdown)
    Tony Benn (party leaders elected by the membership)
    Martin Lewis (saving in cash rather than investing in stocks)
    Irene Rosenfeld (lying takeovers by foreigners)
    Morgan McSweeney (faction fighter who alienated friends and failed to conciliate enemies)
    Steven Bartlett (rise of the podcast, death of journalism)
    Mary Whitehouse (rise of the pressure group)
    Nigel Lawson (privatisation)

    Links
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/james-bevan-what-he-did-to-this-country-4253589
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/boris-johnson-wrecked-britain-man-left-deeper-scars-4326071
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/hardcore-socialist-ruinous-idea-why-liz-truss-pm-4353094
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/martin-lewis-money-saving-expert-cost-britons-billions-4356949
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/american-woman-ripped-heart-cadbury-4448966
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/shadowy-maverick-pulled-labours-strings-sunk-starmer-4496353
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/steven-bartlett-glorified-pr-man-making-britain-worse-4448967
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/anti-sex-anti-fun-godmother-nimbys-gummed-britain-4615659
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/tory-sold-britains-greatest-assets-take-back-control-4634942

    I don't think Chris Whitty should be taking all the blame (if its even due). I don't recall the world pushing back that hard on lockdown, other than an awful lot of people with perfect 20:20 hindsight.
    Screaming at South African officials for daring to suggest Omicron variant wasn't causing their medical system much of an issue and wearing a mask outside whilst getting a ☕ were just a couple of examples of Whittys idiocy..🧐
    Evidence for that? Whitty was CMO and advised the government who took the decisions. Not everything made sense. I never agreed with stopping people meeting outside. And the reluctance to change advise when it became clear that covid was spreading via aerosols and notdroplets was stupid. But lockdown was widely supported and many people did it voluntarily. To blame Whitty is ludicrous.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,831
    edited 3:56PM

    Foss said:

    carnforth said:

    The two pictures so far published of the accused in the Widdecombe case don't appear to be the same man.

    There is also a court sketch in the BBC news website story.
    That's one of the ones I meant. The other picture (can't find ATM) shows a chap with almost shoulder length hair and a beard. Different shape face, too.
    It could just be a terrible court sketch.
    The photo with long hair is from 4 years ago from what I recall.

    Which easily explains the differences. People change
    There's this one of him balancing some kind of object on his head.

    image

    I can't decide if he looks the murdering type or not.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,927
    Eabhal said:

    Just seen that the Widdecombe murder trial is scheduled for June next year.

    We need more courts open and more judges working longer hours. Justice needs to be faster.

    The first plea hearing is in November, which is absolutely ridiculous.
    To be held on remand for nearly a year is an injustice too. Innocent before proven guilty doesn’t mean much when you can get locked up for that long before being put before a jury.
    Totally agree. At this stage he has not been found guilty of a crime. And there is a chance he will walk free, but he will have lost a year of his life simply we cannot get cases through fast enough. And to be honest if he is found guilty the justice ought to be swift too, out of respect for the victim.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,791
    viewcode said:

    Those of you following the ipaper's series on "Who Broke Britain" (https://inews.co.uk/topic/who-broke-britain ) may be interested in the list and links below

    List
    Sir James Bevan (shit in the water - failure of the regulator model)
    Sir Chris Whitty (lockdown)
    Tony Benn (party leaders elected by the membership)
    Martin Lewis (saving in cash rather than investing in stocks)
    Irene Rosenfeld (lying takeovers by foreigners)
    Morgan McSweeney (faction fighter who alienated friends and failed to conciliate enemies)
    Steven Bartlett (rise of the podcast, death of journalism)
    Mary Whitehouse (rise of the pressure group)
    Nigel Lawson (privatisation)

    Links
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/james-bevan-what-he-did-to-this-country-4253589
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/boris-johnson-wrecked-britain-man-left-deeper-scars-4326071
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/hardcore-socialist-ruinous-idea-why-liz-truss-pm-4353094
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/martin-lewis-money-saving-expert-cost-britons-billions-4356949
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/american-woman-ripped-heart-cadbury-4448966
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/shadowy-maverick-pulled-labours-strings-sunk-starmer-4496353
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/steven-bartlett-glorified-pr-man-making-britain-worse-4448967
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/anti-sex-anti-fun-godmother-nimbys-gummed-britain-4615659
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/tory-sold-britains-greatest-assets-take-back-control-4634942

    Completely agree with Martin Lewis. A tedious man high on his own supply who has done some good but it is mitigated for the reasons in the article

    One of the few good things the govt was looking to get younger people to do was invest more in stock and shares ISA’s and less in cash ISA’s.

    Longer term that will only help younger people.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,688
    Sweeney74 said:

    dixiedean said:

    On topic, more or less: This header reminded me of some thoughts in an Orwell essay I read long ago:

    But when you go to the industrial North you are conscious, quite apart from the unfamiliar scenery, of entering a strange country. This is partly because of certain real differences which do exist, but still more because of the North-South antithesis which has been rubbed into us for such a long time past. There exists in England a curious cult of Northemness, sort of Northern snobbishness. A Yorkshireman in the South will always take care to let you know that he regards you as an inferior. If you ask him why, he will explain that it is only in the North that life is ‘real’ life, that the industrial work done in the North is the only ‘real’ work, that the North is inhabited by ‘real’ people, the South merely by rentiers and their parasites. The Northerner has ‘grit’, he is grim, ‘dour’, plucky, warm-hearted, and democratic; the Southerner is snobbish, effeminate, and lazy — that at any rate is the theory. Hence the Southerner goes north, at any rate for the first time, with the vague inferiority-complex of a civilized man venturing among savages, while the Yorkshireman, like the Scotchman, comes to London in the spirit of a barbarian out for loot.
    source: https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/north/english/e_north

    Was Orwell right then? If so, is there still some truth to those perceptions?
    Yes. But that's very much Yorkshire. The people of the northwest aren't grim or dour in the slightest.
    A vast number of our top comedians come from west of the Pennines.
    Or the correct side of the Pennines, as my mother would say.

    Yorkshireman: says what he likes, and likes what he bloody well says.

    It was very good for me, as a middle class youth from South Essex, to go and study in Sunderland for three years, and then go and live and work in North Manchester for two more. Broadened my outlook considerably
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,927
    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    Those of you following the ipaper's series on "Who Broke Britain" (https://inews.co.uk/topic/who-broke-britain ) may be interested in the list and links below

    List
    Sir James Bevan (shit in the water - failure of the regulator model)
    Sir Chris Whitty (lockdown)
    Tony Benn (party leaders elected by the membership)
    Martin Lewis (saving in cash rather than investing in stocks)
    Irene Rosenfeld (lying takeovers by foreigners)
    Morgan McSweeney (faction fighter who alienated friends and failed to conciliate enemies)
    Steven Bartlett (rise of the podcast, death of journalism)
    Mary Whitehouse (rise of the pressure group)
    Nigel Lawson (privatisation)

    Links
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/james-bevan-what-he-did-to-this-country-4253589
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/boris-johnson-wrecked-britain-man-left-deeper-scars-4326071
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/hardcore-socialist-ruinous-idea-why-liz-truss-pm-4353094
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/martin-lewis-money-saving-expert-cost-britons-billions-4356949
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/american-woman-ripped-heart-cadbury-4448966
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/shadowy-maverick-pulled-labours-strings-sunk-starmer-4496353
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/steven-bartlett-glorified-pr-man-making-britain-worse-4448967
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/anti-sex-anti-fun-godmother-nimbys-gummed-britain-4615659
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/tory-sold-britains-greatest-assets-take-back-control-4634942

    Completely agree with Martin Lewis. A tedious man high on his own supply who has done some good but it is mitigated for the reasons in the article

    One of the few good things the govt was looking to get younger people to do was invest more in stock and shares ISA’s and less in cash ISA’s.

    Longer term that will only help younger people.
    Martin Lewis freely admits that he doesn't have to make the decisions that governments do. He accepts that there are hard choices. I think he is excellent in the sphere of personal finances.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 41,027

    The two pictures so far published of the accused in the Widdecombe case don't appear to be the same man.

    They could be the same person.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,846
    Taz said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    I hope this is taken the right way but what is the fecking point of this? In the modern world of online meetings you do not need to be in the same city, let alone the room. It might have been a bigger thing 40 years ago, but now?

    The BBC moved a lot of Salford which just meant the talent all kept their London homes and got flats/houses up north. What was the point?
    To reset the balance of the country's political geography.
    I suspect it will be more effective than you imagine.
    It is not in itself devolution, though. Rather the opposite, it may be used as a reason for not devolving power now that the central authority has an outpost in Manchester.

    And why Manchester other than that's where Burnham lives? If this is such a good idea, why not Birmingham, Ilfracombe, Newcastle or even Clacton? At least it's not Brussels to Strasbourg. But it is getting close to the soft corruption we used to look askance at abroad: vote for me, for public munificence in your area.
    There is a reason why Treasury North is sat a 5 minute walk away from a station with twice hourly trains to central London.
    I wonder how much this ‘Westminster of the North’ will cost and if a cost benefit analysis has even been undertaken while plotting against SKS

    The news was reporting civil servants are being offered relocation packages to consider a move ‘North ‘. I’m guessing these won’t be basic packages
    The standard civil service service contract says that they must be paid their mortgage until they manage to sell their house (if they buy a new one up North) or rent if they choose that route. In addition all moving costs including fees.

    That depends on the new location being more than 75 minutes travel from their home.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,791

    Brixian59 said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT: Good morning.

    Burnham’s coronation has brought me back to PB after a long absence.

    Healey was the obvious choice for Chancellor.
    I’m surprised the commentariat are surprised:
    Miliband too dangerous; Mahmood no proper experience.

    Haigh becoming Minister for Policy (essentially) also a good move, despite my misgivings over her old fraud conviction. She was one of the few Starmer appointments with a working policy brain.

    Streeting to Defence - interesting; Phillipson sidelined - good; new AI ministry - excellent.

    In other areas, I have a more mixed opinion. Too many firings of perfectly serviceable ministers, just because they were Starmerites, if such a thing ever really existed. Perhaps more accurate to say they were not firm Burnhamites. The new government is thereby “clubbier” than any I remember - this can be seen in the sheer concentration of Northern ministers.

    The electricity announcement shows that Burnham is politically canny in a way that Starmer could never be. It’s a rounding error on the national accounts, and it signals that the new government is “on your side”.
    This is a positive start.

    The anti-case for Miliband's appointment.
    Not entirely unfair.

    Miliband's central role in nixing #UK (& thus, US) response to chemical weapons use in #Syria had **huge** global impacts:

    - #Russia spurred on to invade #Ukraine
    - Triggered the #Syria refugee crisis... which fueled far-right populism...

    https://x.com/Charles_Lister/status/2079571195322597535
    You can make that case. I can see some merit in it. But people equally make the case that the Western intervention in Libya, which helped to topple Gaddafi, is responsible for the chaos there, and the contribution that makes to the migrant crisis. And that intervention succeeded on its own terms - it prevented a slaughter in Benghazi, and led to the fall of Gaddafi.

    What might the consequences had been if the UK and US had conducted airstrikes on Syria, and they had failed to prevent the continued use of chemical weapons? That might have had even worse consequences in terms of diminishing Western deterrence power.

    And I think it was Biden sticking to Trump's plan to withdraw from Afghanistan, and the humiliating fall of Kabul that resulted, that did most to persuade Putin he could invade Ukraine in 2022. The experience gained by Russia fighting for Assad in Syria was, I think, of less importance.
    Ive absolutely no doubt at all that Milibands initial foray will be in the Gaza / Lebanon and the question of Netanyahu.

    I can see Burnham and this Government being far more strident on Israel, possibly sanctioning, stopping military Contracts etc.

    Its quite conceivable that France, Spain, UK and other EU Countries could seek a Global Arrest Warrant for Netanyahu and some of his Associates like the Mayor of New York is planning, IF he ever sets foot on soil.

    That would play incredibly well with the Muslim vote, the general left vote, much of the moral majority vote especially from the son of a leading Jewish thinker who fled the Nazis. It would also greatly assist the majority moderate Jewish Population in the UK to have full support against anti semitism and to root out the minority yet increasingly vocal uber zionists who are as responsible for anti semitism as any non Jew.

    I can't see any of this happening. There's a general election due in Israel this autumn. Obsessing about Miliband being Jewish is, well, obsessive and not in a good way. Most people are not defined by their ethnicity or religion, and most people includes Ed Miliband. No-one said that David Lammy when Foreign Secretary could only deal with African and Caribbean nations, or Yvette Cooper was confined to Europe. It's not even offensive, it's absurd.
    No, but Israel-Gaza is an issue that obsesses people on the left who will have either gone for the Gaza independents or Green.

    A less pro-Israel stance on the issue, and we have had comments from Team Burnham on it already, would help to win them back, or some of them.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 6,164

    Foss said:

    carnforth said:

    The two pictures so far published of the accused in the Widdecombe case don't appear to be the same man.

    There is also a court sketch in the BBC news website story.
    That's one of the ones I meant. The other picture (can't find ATM) shows a chap with almost shoulder length hair and a beard. Different shape face, too.
    It could just be a terrible court sketch.
    The photo with long hair is from 4 years ago from what I recall.

    Which easily explains the differences. People change
    There's this one of him balancing some kind of object on his head.

    image

    I can't decide if he looks the murdering type or not.
    That photo looks stretched so it is hard to use that as a comparison to other images.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,311

    Foss said:

    carnforth said:

    The two pictures so far published of the accused in the Widdecombe case don't appear to be the same man.

    There is also a court sketch in the BBC news website story.
    That's one of the ones I meant. The other picture (can't find ATM) shows a chap with almost shoulder length hair and a beard. Different shape face, too.
    It could just be a terrible court sketch.
    The photo with long hair is from 4 years ago from what I recall.

    Which easily explains the differences. People change
    There's this one of him balancing some kind of object on his head.

    image

    I can't decide if he looks the murdering type or not.
    He doesn't. He looks like the bloke who fixes your PC, and plays Warhammer at the weekend.

    But we never really know anyone, do we?
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,791

    Taz said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    I hope this is taken the right way but what is the fecking point of this? In the modern world of online meetings you do not need to be in the same city, let alone the room. It might have been a bigger thing 40 years ago, but now?

    The BBC moved a lot of Salford which just meant the talent all kept their London homes and got flats/houses up north. What was the point?
    To reset the balance of the country's political geography.
    I suspect it will be more effective than you imagine.
    It is not in itself devolution, though. Rather the opposite, it may be used as a reason for not devolving power now that the central authority has an outpost in Manchester.

    And why Manchester other than that's where Burnham lives? If this is such a good idea, why not Birmingham, Ilfracombe, Newcastle or even Clacton? At least it's not Brussels to Strasbourg. But it is getting close to the soft corruption we used to look askance at abroad: vote for me, for public munificence in your area.
    There is a reason why Treasury North is sat a 5 minute walk away from a station with twice hourly trains to central London.
    I wonder how much this ‘Westminster of the North’ will cost and if a cost benefit analysis has even been undertaken while plotting against SKS

    The news was reporting civil servants are being offered relocation packages to consider a move ‘North ‘. I’m guessing these won’t be basic packages
    The standard civil service service contract says that they must be paid their mortgage until they manage to sell their house (if they buy a new one up North) or rent if they choose that route. In addition all moving costs including fees.

    That depends on the new location being more than 75 minutes travel from their home.
    Doesn’t seem unreasonable.

    Similar to what I got when I relocated 26 years ago in private sector. Also got rent paid for 6 months while sold old place and sorted new one out.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,727
    Andy_JS said:

    In the US, "soul" has a meaning somewhat different meaning than in the UK. For example, "souls to the polls" means, roughly, that black churches should encourage their members to vote.

    And, of course, there is soul music: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_music

    I don't suppose there will be any parallel for the first, but I hope that Northern Soul's political success will produce some music worth listening to. Any evidence of that, so far? (If Wikipedia is right, the movement with that name has a way to go.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_soul )

    Northern Soul has produced lots of great songs over the years.
    Northern Soul was essentially records made in the USA ( mainly Detroit) by the likes of labels like Gordy/Motown, Rik-Tik, Brunswick and Golden World. The Northern bit was scabby Mancs who played the records in the Wigan Casino in 1972.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,689

    Taz said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    I hope this is taken the right way but what is the fecking point of this? In the modern world of online meetings you do not need to be in the same city, let alone the room. It might have been a bigger thing 40 years ago, but now?

    The BBC moved a lot of Salford which just meant the talent all kept their London homes and got flats/houses up north. What was the point?
    To reset the balance of the country's political geography.
    I suspect it will be more effective than you imagine.
    It is not in itself devolution, though. Rather the opposite, it may be used as a reason for not devolving power now that the central authority has an outpost in Manchester.

    And why Manchester other than that's where Burnham lives? If this is such a good idea, why not Birmingham, Ilfracombe, Newcastle or even Clacton? At least it's not Brussels to Strasbourg. But it is getting close to the soft corruption we used to look askance at abroad: vote for me, for public munificence in your area.
    There is a reason why Treasury North is sat a 5 minute walk away from a station with twice hourly trains to central London.
    I wonder how much this ‘Westminster of the North’ will cost and if a cost benefit analysis has even been undertaken while plotting against SKS

    The news was reporting civil servants are being offered relocation packages to consider a move ‘North ‘. I’m guessing these won’t be basic packages
    The standard civil service service contract says that they must be paid their mortgage until they manage to sell their house (if they buy a new one up North) or rent if they choose that route. In addition all moving costs including fees.

    That depends on the new location being more than 75 minutes travel from their home.
    But is there suitable business accommodation ready to move into? When I was in a government department that relocated, it took a couple of years just to have the building ready.
  • AramintaMoonbeamQCAramintaMoonbeamQC Posts: 4,227
    edited 4:14PM
    Eabhal said:

    Just seen that the Widdecombe murder trial is scheduled for June next year.

    We need more courts open and more judges working longer hours. Justice needs to be faster.

    The first plea hearing is in November, which is absolutely ridiculous.
    To be held on remand for nearly a year is an injustice too. Innocent before proven guilty doesn’t mean much when you can get locked up for that long before being put before a jury.
    The Liverpool Parade attacker had been through multiple hearings, got to trial and was in prison post sentencing within seven months. It's ludicrous that this case is going to drag on like this. The only reason I can think of is that the investigators need maximum time to go through a large amount of digital evidence.

    Edit: BBC News reporter actually saying this right now - there must be a mountain of digital stuff and possible links to others
  • eekeek Posts: 34,661
    AnneJGP said:

    Taz said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    I hope this is taken the right way but what is the fecking point of this? In the modern world of online meetings you do not need to be in the same city, let alone the room. It might have been a bigger thing 40 years ago, but now?

    The BBC moved a lot of Salford which just meant the talent all kept their London homes and got flats/houses up north. What was the point?
    To reset the balance of the country's political geography.
    I suspect it will be more effective than you imagine.
    It is not in itself devolution, though. Rather the opposite, it may be used as a reason for not devolving power now that the central authority has an outpost in Manchester.

    And why Manchester other than that's where Burnham lives? If this is such a good idea, why not Birmingham, Ilfracombe, Newcastle or even Clacton? At least it's not Brussels to Strasbourg. But it is getting close to the soft corruption we used to look askance at abroad: vote for me, for public munificence in your area.
    There is a reason why Treasury North is sat a 5 minute walk away from a station with twice hourly trains to central London.
    I wonder how much this ‘Westminster of the North’ will cost and if a cost benefit analysis has even been undertaken while plotting against SKS

    The news was reporting civil servants are being offered relocation packages to consider a move ‘North ‘. I’m guessing these won’t be basic packages
    The standard civil service service contract says that they must be paid their mortgage until they manage to sell their house (if they buy a new one up North) or rent if they choose that route. In addition all moving costs including fees.

    That depends on the new location being more than 75 minutes travel from their home.
    But is there suitable business accommodation ready to move into? When I was in a government department that relocated, it took a couple of years just to have the building ready.
    We looked at this a couple of weeks back and I think we found one (not very) suitable option.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 92,511
    I know the world cup was quite exciting and there has lots been going in politiics, but is everybody hyped for the start of the Hundred?
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,444

    viewcode said:

    Those of you following the ipaper's series on "Who Broke Britain" (https://inews.co.uk/topic/who-broke-britain ) may be interested in the list and links below

    List
    Sir James Bevan (shit in the water - failure of the regulator model)
    Sir Chris Whitty (lockdown)
    Tony Benn (party leaders elected by the membership)
    Martin Lewis (saving in cash rather than investing in stocks)
    Irene Rosenfeld (lying takeovers by foreigners)
    Morgan McSweeney (faction fighter who alienated friends and failed to conciliate enemies)
    Steven Bartlett (rise of the podcast, death of journalism)
    Mary Whitehouse (rise of the pressure group)
    Nigel Lawson (privatisation)

    Links
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/james-bevan-what-he-did-to-this-country-4253589
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/boris-johnson-wrecked-britain-man-left-deeper-scars-4326071
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/hardcore-socialist-ruinous-idea-why-liz-truss-pm-4353094
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/martin-lewis-money-saving-expert-cost-britons-billions-4356949
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/american-woman-ripped-heart-cadbury-4448966
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/shadowy-maverick-pulled-labours-strings-sunk-starmer-4496353
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/steven-bartlett-glorified-pr-man-making-britain-worse-4448967
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/anti-sex-anti-fun-godmother-nimbys-gummed-britain-4615659
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/tory-sold-britains-greatest-assets-take-back-control-4634942

    I don't think Chris Whitty should be taking all the blame (if its even due). I don't recall the world pushing back that hard on lockdown, other than an awful lot of people with perfect 20:20 hindsight.
    Screaming at South African officials for daring to suggest Omicron variant wasn't causing their medical system much of an issue and wearing a mask outside whilst getting a ☕ were just a couple of examples of Whittys idiocy..🧐
    The i banner block seems to occasionally lift, I got to read Ottolenghi being blamed for introducing the British palate to flavour, I've never bothered with Ottolenghi but would choose Thai, Indian, Vietnamese, Cambodian, Spanish, Italian, Japanese, Greek, Lebanese, Mexican over a bland traditional British Sunday lunch or other dish.
    Why wouldn't you?

    Martin Lewis-Smith being blamed for Britons choosing the best saving rate rather than a shares fund only looks good when the market is up and ignores the vast performance range of funds and that savers might not choose well.
    UK savers are more than capable of losing their money if they stray into shares etc - potash mines, property funds, etc

    Got into the Miliband one as well, I struggle to see how Miliband (Energy sec 24-26) can be blamed for the sclerotic progress of nuclear power, HPC started in 2017 and should have completed in 2025, he clearly has fuck all responsibility for the construction delays.

    I assume the other articles are of similar quality, the Truss debacle can be firmly placed on the IEA who wrote her economic policy rather than anyone else.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 34,094
    edited 4:21PM
    Brixian59 said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT: Good morning.

    Burnham’s coronation has brought me back to PB after a long absence.

    Healey was the obvious choice for Chancellor.
    I’m surprised the commentariat are surprised:
    Miliband too dangerous; Mahmood no proper experience.

    Haigh becoming Minister for Policy (essentially) also a good move, despite my misgivings over her old fraud conviction. She was one of the few Starmer appointments with a working policy brain.

    Streeting to Defence - interesting; Phillipson sidelined - good; new AI ministry - excellent.

    In other areas, I have a more mixed opinion. Too many firings of perfectly serviceable ministers, just because they were Starmerites, if such a thing ever really existed. Perhaps more accurate to say they were not firm Burnhamites. The new government is thereby “clubbier” than any I remember - this can be seen in the sheer concentration of Northern ministers.

    The electricity announcement shows that Burnham is politically canny in a way that Starmer could never be. It’s a rounding error on the national accounts, and it signals that the new government is “on your side”.
    This is a positive start.

    The anti-case for Miliband's appointment.
    Not entirely unfair.

    Miliband's central role in nixing #UK (& thus, US) response to chemical weapons use in #Syria had **huge** global impacts:

    - #Russia spurred on to invade #Ukraine
    - Triggered the #Syria refugee crisis... which fueled far-right populism...

    https://x.com/Charles_Lister/status/2079571195322597535
    You can make that case. I can see some merit in it. But people equally make the case that the Western intervention in Libya, which helped to topple Gaddafi, is responsible for the chaos there, and the contribution that makes to the migrant crisis. And that intervention succeeded on its own terms - it prevented a slaughter in Benghazi, and led to the fall of Gaddafi.

    What might the consequences had been if the UK and US had conducted airstrikes on Syria, and they had failed to prevent the continued use of chemical weapons? That might have had even worse consequences in terms of diminishing Western deterrence power.

    And I think it was Biden sticking to Trump's plan to withdraw from Afghanistan, and the humiliating fall of Kabul that resulted, that did most to persuade Putin he could invade Ukraine in 2022. The experience gained by Russia fighting for Assad in Syria was, I think, of less importance.
    Ive absolutely no doubt at all that Milibands initial foray will be in the Gaza / Lebanon and the question of Netanyahu.

    I can see Burnham and this Government being far more strident on Israel, possibly sanctioning, stopping military Contracts etc.

    Its quite conceivable that France, Spain, UK and other EU Countries could seek a Global Arrest Warrant for Netanyahu and some of his Associates like the Mayor of New York is planning, IF he ever sets foot on soil.

    That would play incredibly well with the Muslim vote, the general left vote, much of the moral majority vote especially from the son of a leading Jewish thinker who fled the Nazis. It would also greatly assist the majority moderate Jewish Population in the UK to have full support against anti semitism and to root out the minority yet increasingly vocal uber zionists who are as responsible for anti semitism as any non Jew.
    What's a Global Arrest Warrant, and what is the Authority for issuing one?

    Is this a normal international arrest warrant done through Interpol?

    Or something more at the instigation of the International Criminal Court, which is distinctive in having jurisdiction over (iirc) crimes against humanity, as a "Court of Last Resort" when national jurisdictions have not succeeded - with a jurisdiction covering signatory countries, which is most of them.

    Obviously neither Israel or the USA have signed up for the ICC, or accepted its jurisdiction, and Trump is out to destroy it as an institution.

    And MAGA loofs usually point to the USA law which allows them to take military action to rescue detained officials. Would they launch a raid on eg a Spanish Prison where Pete Hegseth was detained after arrest on the instigation of the ICC? I think Trump is deranged enough to order it, and if El Presidente orders it the US Forces would carry it out.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,598
    Just seen Wes on Sky News. He needs to stand on a box...
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,791

    I know the world cup was quite exciting and there has lots been going in politiics, but is everybody hyped for the start of the Hundred?

    I see the Sunrisers Women are playing the MI women on BBC2 to a few hundred people.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,444

    I know the world cup was quite exciting and there has lots been going in politiics, but is everybody hyped for the start of the Hundred?

    Streaming a one day match on youtube, enjoyed bits of the Blast and couldn't care less about the Hundred.
    English cricket is about county rivalry, beer, sandwiches and mild summer days.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,811

    viewcode said:

    Those of you following the ipaper's series on "Who Broke Britain" (https://inews.co.uk/topic/who-broke-britain ) may be interested in the list and links below

    List
    Sir James Bevan (shit in the water - failure of the regulator model)
    Sir Chris Whitty (lockdown)
    Tony Benn (party leaders elected by the membership)
    Martin Lewis (saving in cash rather than investing in stocks)
    Irene Rosenfeld (lying takeovers by foreigners)
    Morgan McSweeney (faction fighter who alienated friends and failed to conciliate enemies)
    Steven Bartlett (rise of the podcast, death of journalism)
    Mary Whitehouse (rise of the pressure group)
    Nigel Lawson (privatisation)

    Links
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/james-bevan-what-he-did-to-this-country-4253589
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/boris-johnson-wrecked-britain-man-left-deeper-scars-4326071
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/hardcore-socialist-ruinous-idea-why-liz-truss-pm-4353094
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/martin-lewis-money-saving-expert-cost-britons-billions-4356949
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/american-woman-ripped-heart-cadbury-4448966
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/shadowy-maverick-pulled-labours-strings-sunk-starmer-4496353
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/steven-bartlett-glorified-pr-man-making-britain-worse-4448967
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/anti-sex-anti-fun-godmother-nimbys-gummed-britain-4615659
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/tory-sold-britains-greatest-assets-take-back-control-4634942

    I don't think Chris Whitty should be taking all the blame (if its even due). I don't recall the world pushing back that hard on lockdown, other than an awful lot of people with perfect 20:20 hindsight.
    Screaming at South African officials for daring to suggest Omicron variant wasn't causing their medical system much of an issue and wearing a mask outside whilst getting a ☕ were just a couple of examples of Whittys idiocy..🧐
    Evidence for that? Whitty was CMO and advised the government who took the decisions. Not everything made sense. I never agreed with stopping people meeting outside. And the reluctance to change advise when it became clear that covid was spreading via aerosols and notdroplets was stupid. But lockdown was widely supported and many people did it voluntarily. To blame Whitty is ludicrous.
    I disagree. It was clear by Oct 2020 wgen he used very selective data to justify the second lockdown that he was not only wrong but - well, I won't say malign, but pushing a very peculiar agenda. Plenty of us could see so at the time.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 15,676

    Foss said:

    carnforth said:

    The two pictures so far published of the accused in the Widdecombe case don't appear to be the same man.

    There is also a court sketch in the BBC news website story.
    That's one of the ones I meant. The other picture (can't find ATM) shows a chap with almost shoulder length hair and a beard. Different shape face, too.
    It could just be a terrible court sketch.
    The photo with long hair is from 4 years ago from what I recall.

    Which easily explains the differences. People change
    There's this one of him balancing some kind of object on his head.

    image

    I can't decide if he looks the murdering type or not.
    He looks like Charles Manson!
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,846
    Nigelb said:

    The European ‘catenaccio’
    If we do not invest, if we cannot offer a true single market, we will have little negotiating power

    https://english.elpais.com/economy-and-business/2026-07-10/the-european-catenaccio.html
    The footballing catenaccio was a strategy, originally developed in Switzerland and popularized in Italy, that prioritized airtight defense and strict man-marking. The idea was that there was no need to have the ball and build the play; it was enough to protect your own goal, counterattack, and hope to catch the opponent by surprise. It is a passive strategy, now largely obsolete, used only by teams that see themselves as inferior. Teams that see themselves as superior want to be aggressive and keep possession so they can dictate the pace of the game. Catenaccio is a strategy for not losing, not a strategy for winning.

    European economic policy is a version of catenaccio, revealing either a sense of inferiority — or, even worse, a political preference for being inferior — relative to the United States and China. Playing constantly on the defensive makes progress very difficult.

    China’s economic strategy, which the United States has largely begun to emulate in recent years, has been clear over the past decade: invest whatever public and private resources are necessary to become a global leader in strategic sectors. Of course, this has been accompanied by a strategy of protecting the domestic industry — but without massive investment, protection alone would have achieved nothing. This investment has benefited from a huge internal market, where companies can grow and develop until they reach the scale required to become world leaders, as well as fierce competition that encourages innovation. All of this has been supported by subsidies and public infrastructure aimed at strategic industries...

    ..Europe, however, remained complacent in the face of China’s rise — particularly Germany’s automobile industry — and European countries remain more concerned with monitoring their neighbors’ fiscal policies than with investing to close the technological gap with the United States and China.

    In 2024, the Draghi Report recommended increasing European investment by 5% of GDP annually for a decade, financed in part through eurobonds, in order to close the productivity gap with the United States. Two years have passed; only about 20% of the recommendations have been implemented, and the increase in investment has been minimal.

    The same has happened with the recommendations of the Letta Report on removing barriers within the single market. Barely 10% have been implemented, and Europe still has a nationally fragmented internal market that severely limits business growth and productivity.


    The UK, of course, has exiled itself to the touchline.
    We're not even on the pitch.

    Strange that you should read that article and the consider it some kind of justification for attacking Brsxit. If anything it shows that staying tied to the EU is binding us to a stagnating, failing economy.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,811

    I know the world cup was quite exciting and there has lots been going in politiics, but is everybody hyped for the start of the Hundred?

    The only good thing about Manchester Originals - their actually quite nice kit - has now gone, to be replaced by a horrible red and blue vertical striped monstrosity. And wtf is a supergiant?
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,444
    Taz said:

    I know the world cup was quite exciting and there has lots been going in politiics, but is everybody hyped for the start of the Hundred?

    I see the Sunrisers Women are playing the MI women on BBC2 to a few hundred people.
    There are over 2,500 streaming the one day match I'm listening to on Youtube, featuring the cream of both counties 2nd XIs and the few who aren't signed to a Hundred franchise.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,444
    Dopermean said:

    Taz said:

    I know the world cup was quite exciting and there has lots been going in politiics, but is everybody hyped for the start of the Hundred?

    I see the Sunrisers Women are playing the MI women on BBC2 to a few hundred people.
    There are over 2,500 streaming the one day match I'm listening to on Youtube, featuring the cream of both counties 2nd XIs and the few who aren't signed to a Hundred franchise.
    Do they bat past 5 is a serious issue...
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,313
    Dopermean said:

    viewcode said:

    Those of you following the ipaper's series on "Who Broke Britain" (https://inews.co.uk/topic/who-broke-britain ) may be interested in the list and links below

    List
    Sir James Bevan (shit in the water - failure of the regulator model)
    Sir Chris Whitty (lockdown)
    Tony Benn (party leaders elected by the membership)
    Martin Lewis (saving in cash rather than investing in stocks)
    Irene Rosenfeld (lying takeovers by foreigners)
    Morgan McSweeney (faction fighter who alienated friends and failed to conciliate enemies)
    Steven Bartlett (rise of the podcast, death of journalism)
    Mary Whitehouse (rise of the pressure group)
    Nigel Lawson (privatisation)

    Links
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/james-bevan-what-he-did-to-this-country-4253589
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/boris-johnson-wrecked-britain-man-left-deeper-scars-4326071
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/hardcore-socialist-ruinous-idea-why-liz-truss-pm-4353094
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/martin-lewis-money-saving-expert-cost-britons-billions-4356949
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/american-woman-ripped-heart-cadbury-4448966
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/shadowy-maverick-pulled-labours-strings-sunk-starmer-4496353
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/steven-bartlett-glorified-pr-man-making-britain-worse-4448967
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/anti-sex-anti-fun-godmother-nimbys-gummed-britain-4615659
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/tory-sold-britains-greatest-assets-take-back-control-4634942

    Another reminder that those who do not subscribe to the i just get a big banner advert across the screen demanding they subscribe after clicking "I'll accept ads"
    Just click the "Show reader" button immediately after the page loads. Works on Safari, at least.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 73,416
    Hugo Gye
    @HugoGye

    NEW
    No10 under Burnham is declining to commit to a number of key policies under way from the Starmer govt, including:
    *The handover of the Chagos Islands
    *Plans to reduce the number of jury trials
    *Early release of prisoners to free up jail capacity

    https://x.com/HugoGye/status/2079587384853758117
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,627
    Taz said:

    I know the world cup was quite exciting and there has lots been going in politiics, but is everybody hyped for the start of the Hundred?

    I see the Sunrisers Women are playing the MI women on BBC2 to a few hundred people.
    "Boring conversation sport, anyway! Luke we're gonna have company!"
  • MattWMattW Posts: 34,094
    edited 4:37PM

    Andy_JS said:

    In the US, "soul" has a meaning somewhat different meaning than in the UK. For example, "souls to the polls" means, roughly, that black churches should encourage their members to vote.

    And, of course, there is soul music: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_music

    I don't suppose there will be any parallel for the first, but I hope that Northern Soul's political success will produce some music worth listening to. Any evidence of that, so far? (If Wikipedia is right, the movement with that name has a way to go.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_soul )

    Northern Soul has produced lots of great songs over the years.
    Northern Soul was essentially records made in the USA ( mainly Detroit) by the likes of labels like Gordy/Motown, Rik-Tik, Brunswick and Golden World. The Northern bit was scabby Mancs who played the records in the Wigan Casino in 1972.
    It was an interesting crossover from a subsection of US Black Music that was picked up by mods.

    Up until the end of 2025 there was a Northern Soul Night near here that drew hundreds once a month. I am not sure if it continued.

    I find it interesting in that the style is individualistic, and men get permission to express themselves, rather than provide a background for their partner.

    https://youtu.be/KEr7VG9tWMk?t=297

    Strictly did it once, but with glitterballs, and (very imo) they rather bastardised it into partner dancing which pulled in vigorous moves from other styles, with a few soloists:

    https://youtu.be/2h0cDc4EbIE?t=42
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 15,676

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Kemi fans please explain.

    Also those PBers who got excited by 3 polls showing Labour in third place last week explain.
    Why do Kemi fans need to explain that? She's still up on the previous poll.

    That's Burnham firming up DKs and LD and Green voters moving back to Labour.

    There could be more to come. I see Labour's cap as 33-34% if the Greens are fully squeezed.
    Just to note that 33/34 gave them humongous majority. And yes, squeeze the greens and they get close to it.

    So it’s a note on all the current polls - big green number and it’s humiliating 3rd for Labour, Tories in second. Polling firms within smaller green number put Labour in second. So, table of just the last from each firm is important too - for example if 2 firms regularly bring out polls and they tend to have smallest green number totals, we could be fooled into thinking Labour consistently ahead of the Tories. Or vice versa.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 34,094

    Hugo Gye
    @HugoGye

    NEW
    No10 under Burnham is declining to commit to a number of key policies under way from the Starmer govt, including:
    *The handover of the Chagos Islands
    *Plans to reduce the number of jury trials
    *Early release of prisoners to free up jail capacity

    https://x.com/HugoGye/status/2079587384853758117

    Is that more of "NO! You media will NOT write my agenda! "
  • eekeek Posts: 34,661
    RobD said:

    Hugo Gye
    @HugoGye

    NEW
    No10 under Burnham is declining to commit to a number of key policies under way from the Starmer govt, including:
    *The handover of the Chagos Islands
    *Plans to reduce the number of jury trials
    *Early release of prisoners to free up jail capacity

    https://x.com/HugoGye/status/2079587384853758117

    Giving away the Chagos islands being a key policy of the Starmer government sums it up perfectly.
    Stopping the early release of prisoners is why James Timpson resigned - as he knows what is going to happen unless the spare capacity is kept spare...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 61,194
    MattW said:

    Hugo Gye
    @HugoGye

    NEW
    No10 under Burnham is declining to commit to a number of key policies under way from the Starmer govt, including:
    *The handover of the Chagos Islands
    *Plans to reduce the number of jury trials
    *Early release of prisoners to free up jail capacity

    https://x.com/HugoGye/status/2079587384853758117

    Is that more of "NO! You media will NOT write my agenda! "
    Huh? They are asking if he will continue with some of Starmer's policies or not. It's legitimte to ask what the government is actually going to do.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 29,324
    edited 4:43PM
    Phil said:

    Horrific details of the murder of Anne Widdecombe. He's been to Westminster Magistrates and is up in the Old Bailey this afternoon? Hopefully he pleads guilty, her family have been through enough.Utter scumbag.

    I hope he's thrown in jail and they throw away the key, but how on earth did this ever happen?

    He looks like the sort of guy who plays World of Warcraft online, and posts a lot on 4Chan, including incelly stuff, but to actually do something like this..

    Why?
    Self-radicalisation through ever tighter online social groups that end up looking an awful lot like cults from the outside maybe? We’ve already had one murderous rationalist / trans cult in the USA by way of example (the Zizians), it wouldn’t be totally out there for something similar to happen here.

    The same process that creates far right terrorists (of which we’ve seen a few over the years) can be just as effective at creating leftist ones, we just haven’t seen as many of those in recent years. A group can turn in on itself & self-radicalise to the point where violence becomes a logical outcome of the group’s internal logic & relationship to the outside world.
    It might be simpler, and more horrifying, than that.

    The accused lost his father to cancer last December, then stayed alone in the house, gained weight, cut their hair, then in July 2026 drove hundreds of miles to a politician's house, kills her brutally on entrance, steals her wallet, then immediately drives back. The gap between arrival and departure was approx twenty minutes. That's...odd.

    There are numerous online theories, most connected to Ann's opinions and/or connected to the accused's speculated motive or characteristics. Others speculate on possible connections between Ann's relatives and the accused. But the thing I'm most struck by is that even after 13-14 days we don't know anything about the motive and very little about the accused. We are so used io people putting their lives online we don't know how to cope with people that don't.


  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 92,511
    Paging TSE....

    Apple Inc. is preparing to introduce Apple Upgrade, a leasing program that will mark one of the biggest-ever changes to how the company sells devices.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-07-21/apple-to-launch-upgrade-device-leasing-program-with-klarna-to-spur-sales
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,791
    Got oil ?

    This is about 2% of global supply

    Kazakhstan is set to stop piping crude to a port on Russia’s Black Sea coast after a spate of attacks on tankers that’s jeopardizing the landlocked Asian country’s ability to produce oil

    https://x.com/business/status/2079565839435501924?s=61
  • RobDRobD Posts: 61,194

    Paging TSE....

    Apple Inc. is preparing to introduce Apple Upgrade, a leasing program that will mark one of the biggest-ever changes to how the company sells devices.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-07-21/apple-to-launch-upgrade-device-leasing-program-with-klarna-to-spur-sales

    It'll get to the point that we'll not actually own anything at all.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 92,511
    viewcode said:

    Phil said:

    Horrific details of the murder of Anne Widdecombe. He's been to Westminster Magistrates and is up in the Old Bailey this afternoon? Hopefully he pleads guilty, her family have been through enough.Utter scumbag.

    I hope he's thrown in jail and they throw away the key, but how on earth did this ever happen?

    He looks like the sort of guy who plays World of Warcraft online, and posts a lot on 4Chan, including incelly stuff, but to actually do something like this..

    Why?
    Self-radicalisation through ever tighter online social groups that end up looking an awful lot like cults from the outside maybe? We’ve already had one murderous rationalist / trans cult in the USA by way of example (the Zizians), it wouldn’t be totally out there for something similar to happen here.

    The same process that creates far right terrorists (of which we’ve seen a few over the years) can be just as effective at creating leftist ones, we just haven’t seen as many of those in recent years. A group can turn in on itself & self-radicalise to the point where violence becomes a logical outcome of the group’s internal logic & relationship to the outside world.
    It might be simpler, and more horrifying, than that.

    The accused lost his father to cancer last December, then stayed alone in the house, gained weight, cut their hair, then in July 2026 drove hundreds of miles to a politician's house, kills her brutally on entrance, steals her wallet, then immediately drives back. The gap between arrival and departure was approx twenty minutes. That's...odd.

    There are numerous online theories, most connected to Ann's opinions and/or connected to the accused's speculated motive or characteristics. Others speculate on possible connections between Ann's relatives and the accused. But the thing I'm most struck by is that even after 13-14 days we don't know anything about the motive and very little about the accused. We are so used io people putting their lives online we don't know how to cope with people that don't.


    Did we ever get any clear movitations from the multiple would be assassins of Trump? It seems very little info was released in the aftermath and I presume they are all awaiting trial.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 92,511
    RobD said:

    Paging TSE....

    Apple Inc. is preparing to introduce Apple Upgrade, a leasing program that will mark one of the biggest-ever changes to how the company sells devices.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-07-21/apple-to-launch-upgrade-device-leasing-program-with-klarna-to-spur-sales

    It'll get to the point that we'll not actually own anything at all.
    And you will be happy.....
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,487
    eek said:

    RobD said:

    Hugo Gye
    @HugoGye

    NEW
    No10 under Burnham is declining to commit to a number of key policies under way from the Starmer govt, including:
    *The handover of the Chagos Islands
    *Plans to reduce the number of jury trials
    *Early release of prisoners to free up jail capacity

    https://x.com/HugoGye/status/2079587384853758117

    Giving away the Chagos islands being a key policy of the Starmer government sums it up perfectly.
    Stopping the early release of prisoners is why James Timpson resigned - as he knows what is going to happen unless the spare capacity is kept spare...
    Declining to commit to the policy is not the same as stopping it. They could quite feasibly review the policy and determine its the right one and continue with it.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,791
    RobD said:

    Paging TSE....

    Apple Inc. is preparing to introduce Apple Upgrade, a leasing program that will mark one of the biggest-ever changes to how the company sells devices.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-07-21/apple-to-launch-upgrade-device-leasing-program-with-klarna-to-spur-sales

    It'll get to the point that we'll not actually own anything at all.
    But you’ll be happy.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,434
    eek said:

    RobD said:

    Hugo Gye
    @HugoGye

    NEW
    No10 under Burnham is declining to commit to a number of key policies under way from the Starmer govt, including:
    *The handover of the Chagos Islands
    *Plans to reduce the number of jury trials
    *Early release of prisoners to free up jail capacity

    https://x.com/HugoGye/status/2079587384853758117

    Giving away the Chagos islands being a key policy of the Starmer government sums it up perfectly.
    Stopping the early release of prisoners is why James Timpson resigned - as he knows what is going to happen unless the spare capacity is kept spare...
    One of the successes of the last couple of years has been ensuring that prisons didn't blow up- which wasn't a given at the end of the Sunak government.

    It's the kind of thing that someone without recent national government experience, but an acute sense of what people want, could easily stuff up.

    I hope he doesn't.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 6,164
    viewcode said:

    Phil said:

    Horrific details of the murder of Anne Widdecombe. He's been to Westminster Magistrates and is up in the Old Bailey this afternoon? Hopefully he pleads guilty, her family have been through enough.Utter scumbag.

    I hope he's thrown in jail and they throw away the key, but how on earth did this ever happen?

    He looks like the sort of guy who plays World of Warcraft online, and posts a lot on 4Chan, including incelly stuff, but to actually do something like this..

    Why?
    Self-radicalisation through ever tighter online social groups that end up looking an awful lot like cults from the outside maybe? We’ve already had one murderous rationalist / trans cult in the USA by way of example (the Zizians), it wouldn’t be totally out there for something similar to happen here.

    The same process that creates far right terrorists (of which we’ve seen a few over the years) can be just as effective at creating leftist ones, we just haven’t seen as many of those in recent years. A group can turn in on itself & self-radicalise to the point where violence becomes a logical outcome of the group’s internal logic & relationship to the outside world.
    It might be simpler, and more horrifying, than that.

    The accused lost his father to cancer last December, then stayed alone in the house, gained weight, cut their hair, then in July 2026 drove hundreds of miles to a politician's house, kills her brutally on entrance, steals her wallet, then immediately drives back. The gap between arrival and departure was approx twenty minutes. That's...odd.

    There are numerous online theories, most connected to Ann's opinions and/or connected to the accused's speculated motive or characteristics. Others speculate on possible connections between Ann's relatives and the accused. But the thing I'm most struck by is that even after 13-14 days we don't know anything about the motive and very little about the accused. We are so used io people putting their lives online we don't know how to cope with people that don't.


    They won't put many details into the public domain so as not to prejudice the trial.

    We might get more clues if they add a terror charge. But maybe not.

    The horror of the nature of such a targeted attack is quite staggering. Of course we can speculate in private but keep it offline.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 23,089
    I’m glad Burnham is not committed to the Chagos handover and reductions in trial by jury.

    Both policies became indefensible process goals in their own right, untethered from broader strategic objectives.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,311
    Cookie said:

    viewcode said:

    Those of you following the ipaper's series on "Who Broke Britain" (https://inews.co.uk/topic/who-broke-britain ) may be interested in the list and links below

    List
    Sir James Bevan (shit in the water - failure of the regulator model)
    Sir Chris Whitty (lockdown)
    Tony Benn (party leaders elected by the membership)
    Martin Lewis (saving in cash rather than investing in stocks)
    Irene Rosenfeld (lying takeovers by foreigners)
    Morgan McSweeney (faction fighter who alienated friends and failed to conciliate enemies)
    Steven Bartlett (rise of the podcast, death of journalism)
    Mary Whitehouse (rise of the pressure group)
    Nigel Lawson (privatisation)

    Links
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/james-bevan-what-he-did-to-this-country-4253589
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/boris-johnson-wrecked-britain-man-left-deeper-scars-4326071
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/hardcore-socialist-ruinous-idea-why-liz-truss-pm-4353094
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/martin-lewis-money-saving-expert-cost-britons-billions-4356949
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/american-woman-ripped-heart-cadbury-4448966
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/shadowy-maverick-pulled-labours-strings-sunk-starmer-4496353
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/steven-bartlett-glorified-pr-man-making-britain-worse-4448967
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/anti-sex-anti-fun-godmother-nimbys-gummed-britain-4615659
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/tory-sold-britains-greatest-assets-take-back-control-4634942

    I don't think Chris Whitty should be taking all the blame (if its even due). I don't recall the world pushing back that hard on lockdown, other than an awful lot of people with perfect 20:20 hindsight.
    Screaming at South African officials for daring to suggest Omicron variant wasn't causing their medical system much of an issue and wearing a mask outside whilst getting a ☕ were just a couple of examples of Whittys idiocy..🧐
    Evidence for that? Whitty was CMO and advised the government who took the decisions. Not everything made sense. I never agreed with stopping people meeting outside. And the reluctance to change advise when it became clear that covid was spreading via aerosols and notdroplets was stupid. But lockdown was widely supported and many people did it voluntarily. To blame Whitty is ludicrous.
    I disagree. It was clear by Oct 2020 wgen he used very selective data to justify the second lockdown that he was not only wrong but - well, I won't say malign, but pushing a very peculiar agenda. Plenty of us could see so at the time.
    I still can't forget that bloody 18 months.

    I hated it.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,791

    RobD said:

    Paging TSE....

    Apple Inc. is preparing to introduce Apple Upgrade, a leasing program that will mark one of the biggest-ever changes to how the company sells devices.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-07-21/apple-to-launch-upgrade-device-leasing-program-with-klarna-to-spur-sales

    It'll get to the point that we'll not actually own anything at all.
    And you will be happy.....
    Beat me to it !
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,311

    Depressing there is so much comment online about Burnham's wife.

    Leave her alone. Her life is going to be hard enough as it is what with the constant threat and 24-hour security all over them and their family.

    To this site's credit, there has been zero comment on her on here.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,302

    Depressing there is so much comment online about Burnham's wife.

    Leave her alone. Her life is going to be hard enough as it is what with the constant threat and 24-hour security all over them and their family.

    That's one reason I was sceptical about the Number 10 in the north thing, although it seems to be going ahead. Whether Burnham can actually commute between the two as planned is questionable though, given security requirements. It's a bit like that Chris Mullin tale about the Labour PM who starts by walking to work, A Very British Coup.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,302

    viewcode said:

    Phil said:

    Horrific details of the murder of Anne Widdecombe. He's been to Westminster Magistrates and is up in the Old Bailey this afternoon? Hopefully he pleads guilty, her family have been through enough.Utter scumbag.

    I hope he's thrown in jail and they throw away the key, but how on earth did this ever happen?

    He looks like the sort of guy who plays World of Warcraft online, and posts a lot on 4Chan, including incelly stuff, but to actually do something like this..

    Why?
    Self-radicalisation through ever tighter online social groups that end up looking an awful lot like cults from the outside maybe? We’ve already had one murderous rationalist / trans cult in the USA by way of example (the Zizians), it wouldn’t be totally out there for something similar to happen here.

    The same process that creates far right terrorists (of which we’ve seen a few over the years) can be just as effective at creating leftist ones, we just haven’t seen as many of those in recent years. A group can turn in on itself & self-radicalise to the point where violence becomes a logical outcome of the group’s internal logic & relationship to the outside world.
    It might be simpler, and more horrifying, than that.

    The accused lost his father to cancer last December, then stayed alone in the house, gained weight, cut their hair, then in July 2026 drove hundreds of miles to a politician's house, kills her brutally on entrance, steals her wallet, then immediately drives back. The gap between arrival and departure was approx twenty minutes. That's...odd.

    There are numerous online theories, most connected to Ann's opinions and/or connected to the accused's speculated motive or characteristics. Others speculate on possible connections between Ann's relatives and the accused. But the thing I'm most struck by is that even after 13-14 days we don't know anything about the motive and very little about the accused. We are so used io people putting their lives online we don't know how to cope with people that don't.


    They won't put many details into the public domain so as not to prejudice the trial.

    We might get more clues if they add a terror charge. But maybe not.

    The horror of the nature of such a targeted attack is quite staggering. Of course we can speculate in private but keep it offline.
    The authorities won't but didn't someone say the accused ran a couple of subreddits? If so, that must give him some sort of online presence. This is where we need Leon to tell us what the alt right says. Or not.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,004

    Andy_JS said:

    In the US, "soul" has a meaning somewhat different meaning than in the UK. For example, "souls to the polls" means, roughly, that black churches should encourage their members to vote.

    And, of course, there is soul music: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_music

    I don't suppose there will be any parallel for the first, but I hope that Northern Soul's political success will produce some music worth listening to. Any evidence of that, so far? (If Wikipedia is right, the movement with that name has a way to go.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_soul )

    Northern Soul has produced lots of great songs over the years.
    Northern Soul was essentially records made in the USA ( mainly Detroit) by the likes of labels like Gordy/Motown, Rik-Tik, Brunswick and Golden World. The Northern bit was scabby Mancs who played the records in the Wigan Casino in 1972.
    Gave us this, so it's not all bad.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSehtaY6k1U
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,707
    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    In the US, "soul" has a meaning somewhat different meaning than in the UK. For example, "souls to the polls" means, roughly, that black churches should encourage their members to vote.

    And, of course, there is soul music: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_music

    I don't suppose there will be any parallel for the first, but I hope that Northern Soul's political success will produce some music worth listening to. Any evidence of that, so far? (If Wikipedia is right, the movement with that name has a way to go.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_soul )

    Northern Soul has produced lots of great songs over the years.
    Northern Soul was essentially records made in the USA ( mainly Detroit) by the likes of labels like Gordy/Motown, Rik-Tik, Brunswick and Golden World. The Northern bit was scabby Mancs who played the records in the Wigan Casino in 1972.
    It was an interesting crossover from a subsection of US Black Music that was picked up by mods.

    Up until the end of 2025 there was a Northern Soul Night near here that drew hundreds once a month. I am not sure if it continued.

    I find it interesting in that the style is individualistic, and men get permission to express themselves, rather than provide a background for their partner.

    https://youtu.be/KEr7VG9tWMk?t=297

    Strictly did it once, but with glitterballs, and (very imo) they rather bastardised it into partner dancing which pulled in vigorous moves from other styles, with a few soloists:

    https://youtu.be/2h0cDc4EbIE?t=42
    They do a Northern Soul night at the Rivoli Ballroom (an incredible mid century venue near us that has been used as a period backdrop in numerous TV shows, films and music videos). A lot of the punters there took it all a bit too seriously when we went, in the style of professional Northerners living in London. Northern Soul strikes me as a bit like Yorkshire Tea - naming a product after where it is consumed rather than produced just seems a bit weird.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,707

    Depressing there is so much comment online about Burnham's wife.

    Leave her alone. Her life is going to be hard enough as it is what with the constant threat and 24-hour security all over them and their family.

    To this site's credit, there has been zero comment on her on here.
    The only thing I know about her, which I like, is that Burnham refers to her as MF.
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