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Andy Burnham’s government has a Northern Soul – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,263
edited July 21 in General
Andy Burnham’s government has a Northern Soul – politicalbetting.com

This is certainly a more Northern cabinet from @andyburnham. @BethRigby @Steven_Swinford @SamCoatesSky @annemcelvoy @faisalislam pic.twitter.com/P7DZLewo7s

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Comments

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,636

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,549
    What will be interesting is what the new Government actually does, rather than who sits in it?

    Will they reverse the HS2 cancellation?

    Or even better build new motorways in the North?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,636
    As a bona fide Yorkshireman I am not keen on being parochial but I find the make up of Andy Burnham’s cabinet interesting with it’s shift to Northern England.

    "its shift".
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 20,059
    Without resurrecting the north/south debate (hopefully), UK elections tend to be decided in the Midlands. Are they North or are they South for the purposes of the next election battlefield?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,893
    edited July 21

    As a bona fide Yorkshireman I am not keen on being parochial but I find the make up of Andy Burnham’s cabinet interesting with it’s shift to Northern England.

    "its shift".

    Fixed.

    Blooming autocorrect.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,893

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Kemi fans please explain.

    Also those PBers who got excited by 3 polls showing Labour in third place last week explain.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,451
    Self-citing, because it's always the most reliable source:


    Putting that in context of number of Labour MPs in each region:

    North West: 7/65
    Yorkshire: 4/42
    North East: 2/26
    West Mids: 2/37
    London: 2/59
    East Mids: 1/29
    Wales: 2/27
    South East + South West: 2/59
    Scotland: 1/37
    East: 0/27

    Maybe the pattern is that the cabinet is from places that "ought to" vote Labour, which is not the same as the places that did in 2024.

    I know it's surprising that there are 86 Labour MPs in the provincial South and East, but there are an awful lot of seats in that part of the country.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,549

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Kemi fans please explain.

    Also those PBers who got excited by 3 polls showing Labour in third place last week explain.
    Not a Kemi fan but why would one need to explain a poll showing her party gaining share?

    Besides noting the irrelevancy of midterm polls. Especially ones around a change of PM.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 15,687

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Kemi fans please explain.

    Also those PBers who got excited by 3 polls showing Labour in third place last week explain.
    It’s just one poll!

    Holidaying political blog editors please explain the logic of anyone getting excited by just one poll. 🤷‍♀️

    As political anoraks, we all know what became of the Labour Party yesterday was a disaster.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 29,332

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    Baxtering via https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/

    con 39 seats
    lab 255
    lib 67
    ref 239
    gre 6
    snp 21
    pla 3
    oth 2
    NI 18

    marginal lib-lab coalition, esp when sf don't sit

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=N&CON=18&LAB=28&LIB=10&Reform=28&Green=10&UKIP=&TVCON=100&TVLAB=100&TVLIB=100&TVReform=100&TVGreen=100&TVUKIP=&TVNAT=100&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTReform=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2024base

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,893

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Kemi fans please explain.

    Also those PBers who got excited by 3 polls showing Labour in third place last week explain.
    Why do Kemi fans need to explain that? She's still up on the previous poll.

    That's Burnham firming up DKs and LD and Green voters moving back to Labour.

    There could be more to come. I see Labour's cap as 33-34% if the Greens are fully squeezed.
    Now that Starmer’s gone we need to keep the please explain tradition going.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,360

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Kemi fans please explain.

    Also those PBers who got excited by 3 polls showing Labour in third place last week explain.
    Why do Kemi fans need to explain that? She's still up on the previous poll.

    That's Burnham firming up DKs and LD and Green voters moving back to Labour.

    There could be more to come. I see Labour's cap as 33-34% if the Greens are fully squeezed.
    Now that Starmer’s gone we need to keep the please explain tradition going.
    Why not SED fans please explain then?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,893

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Kemi fans please explain.

    Also those PBers who got excited by 3 polls showing Labour in third place last week explain.
    It’s just one poll!

    Holidaying political blog editors please explain the logic of anyone getting excited by just one poll. 🤷‍♀️

    As political anoraks, we all know what became of the Labour Party yesterday was a disaster.
    If you notice I very rarely do threads on single VI polls (Ipsos is usually the one exception due to the leader ratings).

    I’ve said the polls are worth analysing in October.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 10,223

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Kemi fans please explain.

    Also those PBers who got excited by 3 polls showing Labour in third place last week explain.
    Why do Kemi fans need to explain that? She's still up on the previous poll.

    That's Burnham firming up DKs and LD and Green voters moving back to Labour.

    There could be more to come. I see Labour's cap as 33-34% if the Greens are fully squeezed.
    Now that Starmer’s gone we need to keep the please explain tradition going.
    Why not SED fans please explain then?
    There aren't any?
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,452

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Kemi fans please explain.

    Also those PBers who got excited by 3 polls showing Labour in third place last week explain.
    Why do Kemi fans need to explain that? She's still up on the previous poll.

    That's Burnham firming up DKs and LD and Green voters moving back to Labour.

    There could be more to come. I see Labour's cap as 33-34% if the Greens are fully squeezed.
    Now that Starmer’s gone we need to keep the please explain tradition going.
    Peak Burnham
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,549

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Kemi fans please explain.

    Also those PBers who got excited by 3 polls showing Labour in third place last week explain.
    Why do Kemi fans need to explain that? She's still up on the previous poll.

    That's Burnham firming up DKs and LD and Green voters moving back to Labour.

    There could be more to come. I see Labour's cap as 33-34% if the Greens are fully squeezed.
    Now that Starmer’s gone we need to keep the please explain tradition going.
    Would not Polanski fans please explain make more sense for that one?
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696

    What will be interesting is what the new Government actually does, rather than who sits in it?

    Will they reverse the HS2 cancellation?

    Or even better build new motorways in the North?

    Wasn’t the A6 relief road blocked by Stockport council. In fact I think all the designs to solve the mess that is the M60 have been blocked by the local councils
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696
    edited July 21
    Duplicate for no known reason
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,893
    She must have been terrified/hurt at the end.

    Ann Widdecombe was struck by a hammer 21 times.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696
    With Labour polling equal to Reform I wonder how long Farage will continue to ask for a general election.

    Although it does look like we may be getting one sooner rather than later with Labour polling high 20%s before we think about anti Farage voting
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,893
    eek said:

    With Labour polling equal to Reform I wonder how long Farage will continue to ask for a general election.

    Although it does look like we may be getting one sooner rather than later with Labour polling high 20%s before we think about anti Farage voting

    I am expecting to see a marginals poll (could be by the weekend) that should be illuminating.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,893
    Dopermean said:

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Kemi fans please explain.

    Also those PBers who got excited by 3 polls showing Labour in third place last week explain.
    Why do Kemi fans need to explain that? She's still up on the previous poll.

    That's Burnham firming up DKs and LD and Green voters moving back to Labour.

    There could be more to come. I see Labour's cap as 33-34% if the Greens are fully squeezed.
    Now that Starmer’s gone we need to keep the please explain tradition going.
    Peak Burnham
    Gordon Brown’s honeymoon lasted to late September, that’s my expectation for Burnham.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,511

    eek said:

    With Labour polling equal to Reform I wonder how long Farage will continue to ask for a general election.

    Although it does look like we may be getting one sooner rather than later with Labour polling high 20%s before we think about anti Farage voting

    I am expecting to see a marginals poll (could be by the weekend) that should be illuminating.
    Any hint of a Clacton poll? Or are the polling companies treating it as a joke?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 29,332

    She must have been terrified/hurt at the end.

    Ann Widdecombe was struck by a hammer 21 times.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj03r77n07jo
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 23,311




    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    The Burnham Bounce is on... :D

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,336

    She must have been terrified/hurt at the end.

    Ann Widdecombe was struck by a hammer 21 times.

    And yet:-

    But earlier on Tuesday, the opening of an inquest into her death heard that while a post-mortem examination had taken place, "at this stage the precise medical cause of death has yet to be established".
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj03r77n07jo
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,893

    eek said:

    With Labour polling equal to Reform I wonder how long Farage will continue to ask for a general election.

    Although it does look like we may be getting one sooner rather than later with Labour polling high 20%s before we think about anti Farage voting

    I am expecting to see a marginals poll (could be by the weekend) that should be illuminating.
    Any hint of a Clacton poll? Or are the polling companies treating it as a joke?
    More a case that nobody in the media wants to pay for it, constituency polls are very expensive.

    A pollster says any poll would be skewed by not having the major parties stand.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696

    eek said:

    With Labour polling equal to Reform I wonder how long Farage will continue to ask for a general election.

    Although it does look like we may be getting one sooner rather than later with Labour polling high 20%s before we think about anti Farage voting

    I am expecting to see a marginals poll (could be by the weekend) that should be illuminating.
    Any hint of a Clacton poll? Or are the polling companies treating it as a joke?
    Problem is constituency polls are stupidly expensive for little value at the best of times - and this isn’t really worthwhile as the unknown is who will vote on the day
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,360

    She must have been terrified/hurt at the end.

    Ann Widdecombe was struck by a hammer 21 times.

    That's fucking disgusting.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696

    She must have been terrified/hurt at the end.

    Ann Widdecombe was struck by a hammer 21 times.

    And yet:-

    But earlier on Tuesday, the opening of an inquest into her death heard that while a post-mortem examination had taken place, "at this stage the precise medical cause of death has yet to be established".
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj03r77n07jo
    Because you can’t prejudice the criminal case
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,814

    She must have been terrified/hurt at the end.

    Ann Widdecombe was struck by a hammer 21 times.

    And yet:-

    But earlier on Tuesday, the opening of an inquest into her death heard that while a post-mortem examination had taken place, "at this stage the precise medical cause of death has yet to be established".
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj03r77n07jo
    Her face did look like it had been hit by a hammer when she was alive so you can understand the confusion.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,336
    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696
    edited July 21
    FPT

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    So to provide ID cards for those without passports the cost is say £1.5bn, the cost to give everyone else 1 is say £200m more..

    So you are wasting £200m and creating an authoritarian nonsense that should not exist, lose/lose.

    Both cheaper and less authoritarian not to do that. Win/win.
    Nope - I'm making it easier - as the rules will be standard, to prove right to work status check the ID card..

    But again - I'm pleased to see you agree that without something a lot of people have problems getting a job because of their lack of easy to verify ID..
    The rules already are standard. You object that some people don't have something, so want to create a universal nonsense rather than fill in the gap - when you can just fill in the gap for less without doing that.

    There is no problem that needs fixing with a universal ID. Just do a solution for those who lack it, free at the point of use.
    The easiest would be to issue driving licences to non-drivers on request
    Except a driving licence doesn't confirm a person has the right to work in the UK.
    Photo ID is not legally mandated for proof of right to work, birth certificate and NI number combined are sufficient.
    And what tells me that the person named on that birth certificate is the person presenting that birth certificate...

    Been there - know people who were defrauded and handed a £20k fine.
    Photo IDs are available for free for elections for those who don't have drivers licences, what stops that being used with a birth certificate?
    I risk a £60k fine, what protection do I have given that that photo id is issued for elections alone.
    If you've done your due diligence and taken photo ID, birth certificate and NI number then that should be it. That is more than the law requires.

    If you do what the law requires there should be no fine. If there is, then fixing that is better than issuing a new ID card.
    You best start campaigning to fix the law then because at the moment it's really simple

    No means of doing remote verification (i.e. no passport) - next candidate please...

    It doesn't matter what the law allows, most people want a risk free approach at the cheapest price possible...
    So we're settled then that there's no need for introducing universal ID.

    You're tackling the problem at the wrong end.
    No I'm pointing out a problem in reality that you don't seem to care about because you've got your house a job and a passport.
    We agree a problem exists, we disagree on the solution.

    The problem is authoritarian regulations being misapplied to address an unrelated problem.

    Your solution is more authoritarianism. My solution is less.
    I'm sorry but I haven't got a clue what your solution to companies insisting on rejecting anyone without passports is?

    And remember i'm looking at this from the employer side of things - I'm facing a £60,000 fine if I screw up - so how do you make my life easier and allow me to employ someone without said passport removing all risk of that fine..
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,943
    edited July 21

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    I hope this is taken the right way but what is the fecking point of this? In the modern world of online meetings you do not need to be in the same city, let alone the room. It might have been a bigger thing 40 years ago, but now?

    The BBC moved a lot of Salford which just meant the talent all kept their London homes and got flats/houses up north. What was the point?
  • theProletheProle Posts: 2,041
    eek said:

    FPT

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    So to provide ID cards for those without passports the cost is say £1.5bn, the cost to give everyone else 1 is say £200m more..

    So you are wasting £200m and creating an authoritarian nonsense that should not exist, lose/lose.

    Both cheaper and less authoritarian not to do that. Win/win.
    Nope - I'm making it easier - as the rules will be standard, to prove right to work status check the ID card..

    But again - I'm pleased to see you agree that without something a lot of people have problems getting a job because of their lack of easy to verify ID..
    The rules already are standard. You object that some people don't have something, so want to create a universal nonsense rather than fill in the gap - when you can just fill in the gap for less without doing that.

    There is no problem that needs fixing with a universal ID. Just do a solution for those who lack it, free at the point of use.
    The easiest would be to issue driving licences to non-drivers on request
    Except a driving licence doesn't confirm a person has the right to work in the UK.
    Photo ID is not legally mandated for proof of right to work, birth certificate and NI number combined are sufficient.
    And what tells me that the person named on that birth certificate is the person presenting that birth certificate...

    Been there - know people who were defrauded and handed a £20k fine.
    Photo IDs are available for free for elections for those who don't have drivers licences, what stops that being used with a birth certificate?
    I risk a £60k fine, what protection do I have given that that photo id is issued for elections alone.
    If you've done your due diligence and taken photo ID, birth certificate and NI number then that should be it. That is more than the law requires.

    If you do what the law requires there should be no fine. If there is, then fixing that is better than issuing a new ID card.
    You best start campaigning to fix the law then because at the moment it's really simple

    No means of doing remote verification (i.e. no passport) - next candidate please...

    It doesn't matter what the law allows, most people want a risk free approach at the cheapest price possible...
    So we're settled then that there's no need for introducing universal ID.

    You're tackling the problem at the wrong end.
    No I'm pointing out a problem in reality that you don't seem to care about because you've got your house a job and a passport.
    We agree a problem exists, we disagree on the solution.

    The problem is authoritarian regulations being misapplied to address an unrelated problem.

    Your solution is more authoritarianism. My solution is less.
    I'm sorry but I haven't got a clue what your solution to companies insisting on rejecting anyone without passports is?

    And remember i'm looking at this from the employer side of things - I'm facing a £60,000 fine if I screw up - so how do you make my life easier and allow me to employ someone without said passport removing all risk of that fine..
    I'm not sure what Bart's solution is, but mine involves getting the Home Office to boot out illegal immigrants, rather than making employers do the job of immigration officers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,044

    As a bona fide Yorkshireman I am not keen on being parochial but I find the make up of Andy Burnham’s cabinet interesting with it’s shift to Northern England.

    "its shift".

    Fixed.

    Blooming autocorrect.
    Fair, for once.
    The single most irritating feature of autocorrect is its inappropriate insertion of the apostrophe. (That is not a euphemism, though perhaps it should be.)
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 25,093

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    The big risk for any civil servant moving north is that No 10 North is abolished by the next PM, possibly in just three years, and then they will need to buy a house in/near London again.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,636
    Dura_Ace said:

    She must have been terrified/hurt at the end.

    Ann Widdecombe was struck by a hammer 21 times.

    And yet:-

    But earlier on Tuesday, the opening of an inquest into her death heard that while a post-mortem examination had taken place, "at this stage the precise medical cause of death has yet to be established".
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj03r77n07jo
    Her face did look like it had been hit by a hammer when she was alive so you can understand the confusion.
    With his hero-worship of Putin, our @Dura_Ace definitely has something of the night about him!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,044

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    I hope this is taken the right way but what is the fecking point of this? In the modern world of online meetings you do not need to be in the same city, let alone the room. It might have been a bigger thing 40 years ago, but now?

    The BBC moved a lot of Salford which just meant the talent all kept their London homes and got flats/houses up north. What was the point?
    To reset the balance of the country's political geography.
    I suspect it will be more effective than you imagine.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,871

    eek said:

    With Labour polling equal to Reform I wonder how long Farage will continue to ask for a general election.

    Although it does look like we may be getting one sooner rather than later with Labour polling high 20%s before we think about anti Farage voting

    I am expecting to see a marginals poll (could be by the weekend) that should be illuminating.
    Any hint of a Clacton poll? Or are the polling companies treating it as a joke?
    "Are you going to bother voting in the ridiculous and unnecessary by-election?"
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 81,372
    FF43 said:

    Without resurrecting the north/south debate (hopefully), UK elections tend to be decided in the Midlands. Are they North or are they South for the purposes of the next election battlefield?

    Looking at stuff like the proportional property tax, the south starts at Kenilworth.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 29,332
    Those of you following the ipaper's series on "Who Broke Britain" (https://inews.co.uk/topic/who-broke-britain ) may be interested in the list and links below

    List
    Sir James Bevan (shit in the water - failure of the regulator model)
    Sir Chris Whitty (lockdown)
    Tony Benn (party leaders elected by the membership)
    Martin Lewis (saving in cash rather than investing in stocks)
    Irene Rosenfeld (lying takeovers by foreigners)
    Morgan McSweeney (faction fighter who alienated friends and failed to conciliate enemies)
    Steven Bartlett (rise of the podcast, death of journalism)
    Mary Whitehouse (rise of the pressure group)
    Nigel Lawson (privatisation)

    Links
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/james-bevan-what-he-did-to-this-country-4253589
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/boris-johnson-wrecked-britain-man-left-deeper-scars-4326071
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/hardcore-socialist-ruinous-idea-why-liz-truss-pm-4353094
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/martin-lewis-money-saving-expert-cost-britons-billions-4356949
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/american-woman-ripped-heart-cadbury-4448966
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/shadowy-maverick-pulled-labours-strings-sunk-starmer-4496353
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/steven-bartlett-glorified-pr-man-making-britain-worse-4448967
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/anti-sex-anti-fun-godmother-nimbys-gummed-britain-4615659
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/tory-sold-britains-greatest-assets-take-back-control-4634942
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,336
    theProle said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    So to provide ID cards for those without passports the cost is say £1.5bn, the cost to give everyone else 1 is say £200m more..

    So you are wasting £200m and creating an authoritarian nonsense that should not exist, lose/lose.

    Both cheaper and less authoritarian not to do that. Win/win.
    Nope - I'm making it easier - as the rules will be standard, to prove right to work status check the ID card..

    But again - I'm pleased to see you agree that without something a lot of people have problems getting a job because of their lack of easy to verify ID..
    The rules already are standard. You object that some people don't have something, so want to create a universal nonsense rather than fill in the gap - when you can just fill in the gap for less without doing that.

    There is no problem that needs fixing with a universal ID. Just do a solution for those who lack it, free at the point of use.
    The easiest would be to issue driving licences to non-drivers on request
    Except a driving licence doesn't confirm a person has the right to work in the UK.
    Photo ID is not legally mandated for proof of right to work, birth certificate and NI number combined are sufficient.
    And what tells me that the person named on that birth certificate is the person presenting that birth certificate...

    Been there - know people who were defrauded and handed a £20k fine.
    Photo IDs are available for free for elections for those who don't have drivers licences, what stops that being used with a birth certificate?
    I risk a £60k fine, what protection do I have given that that photo id is issued for elections alone.
    If you've done your due diligence and taken photo ID, birth certificate and NI number then that should be it. That is more than the law requires.

    If you do what the law requires there should be no fine. If there is, then fixing that is better than issuing a new ID card.
    You best start campaigning to fix the law then because at the moment it's really simple

    No means of doing remote verification (i.e. no passport) - next candidate please...

    It doesn't matter what the law allows, most people want a risk free approach at the cheapest price possible...
    So we're settled then that there's no need for introducing universal ID.

    You're tackling the problem at the wrong end.
    No I'm pointing out a problem in reality that you don't seem to care about because you've got your house a job and a passport.
    We agree a problem exists, we disagree on the solution.

    The problem is authoritarian regulations being misapplied to address an unrelated problem.

    Your solution is more authoritarianism. My solution is less.
    I'm sorry but I haven't got a clue what your solution to companies insisting on rejecting anyone without passports is?

    And remember i'm looking at this from the employer side of things - I'm facing a £60,000 fine if I screw up - so how do you make my life easier and allow me to employ someone without said passport removing all risk of that fine..
    I'm not sure what Bart's solution is, but mine involves getting the Home Office to boot out illegal immigrants, rather than making employers do the job of immigration officers.
    When we were TUPE'd over from an international megacorp to a global megacorp, I could not prove that I was entitled to work in Britain. No documents. Eventually, the global megacorp decided to assume my right to work had been checked by the international megacorp and TUPE'd across as well.

    When I later did apply for a passport, it took a couple of weeks and several hundred pounds in new equipment. People say how easy the process is now probably already have one and are just renewing.

    So yes, it is a real problem, especially for the digitally disadvantaged (which I think is the correct term) which correlates roughly with older and less prosperous groups.

    People who already have ID misunderestimate the problems thrown up for those who do not. We may recall Jacob Rees-Mogg telling us that the Conservative gerrymander of requiring voting ID backfired because it disqualified so many of their own supporters.

    Incidentally, getting an esim from Apple needed sending them a photo of my passport and a video of my face for their rogues' gallery. This is apparently somehow connected to the OSA.

    So we have the worst of all worlds. Governments impose requirements for digital ID but do not provide a mechanism, so that various private companies, mostly based offshore, implement their own schemes, some of which will prove to be insecure and even the secure ones will be subject to official foreign spying laws.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,452

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    The big risk for any civil servant moving north is that No 10 North is abolished by the next PM, possibly in just three years, and then they will need to buy a house in/near London again.
    Yep disrupted your family, forced sale in a dead London market, top dollar for forced purchase in Manchester, 3 years later forced sale in Manchester market, London market picked up... 2 chunks of stamp duty. You could be 6 figures worse off in 3 years easily
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,044

    FPT: Good morning.

    Burnham’s coronation has brought me back to PB after a long absence.

    Healey was the obvious choice for Chancellor.
    I’m surprised the commentariat are surprised:
    Miliband too dangerous; Mahmood no proper experience.

    Haigh becoming Minister for Policy (essentially) also a good move, despite my misgivings over her old fraud conviction. She was one of the few Starmer appointments with a working policy brain.

    Streeting to Defence - interesting; Phillipson sidelined - good; new AI ministry - excellent.

    In other areas, I have a more mixed opinion. Too many firings of perfectly serviceable ministers, just because they were Starmerites, if such a thing ever really existed. Perhaps more accurate to say they were not firm Burnhamites. The new government is thereby “clubbier” than any I remember - this can be seen in the sheer concentration of Northern ministers.

    The electricity announcement shows that Burnham is politically canny in a way that Starmer could never be. It’s a rounding error on the national accounts, and it signals that the new government is “on your side”.
    This is a positive start.

    The anti-case for Miliband's appointment.
    Not entirely unfair.

    Miliband's central role in nixing #UK (& thus, US) response to chemical weapons use in #Syria had **huge** global impacts:

    - #Russia spurred on to invade #Ukraine
    - Triggered the #Syria refugee crisis... which fueled far-right populism...

    https://x.com/Charles_Lister/status/2079571195322597535
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,549
    eek said:

    FPT

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    So to provide ID cards for those without passports the cost is say £1.5bn, the cost to give everyone else 1 is say £200m more..

    So you are wasting £200m and creating an authoritarian nonsense that should not exist, lose/lose.

    Both cheaper and less authoritarian not to do that. Win/win.
    Nope - I'm making it easier - as the rules will be standard, to prove right to work status check the ID card..

    But again - I'm pleased to see you agree that without something a lot of people have problems getting a job because of their lack of easy to verify ID..
    The rules already are standard. You object that some people don't have something, so want to create a universal nonsense rather than fill in the gap - when you can just fill in the gap for less without doing that.

    There is no problem that needs fixing with a universal ID. Just do a solution for those who lack it, free at the point of use.
    The easiest would be to issue driving licences to non-drivers on request
    Except a driving licence doesn't confirm a person has the right to work in the UK.
    Photo ID is not legally mandated for proof of right to work, birth certificate and NI number combined are sufficient.
    And what tells me that the person named on that birth certificate is the person presenting that birth certificate...

    Been there - know people who were defrauded and handed a £20k fine.
    Photo IDs are available for free for elections for those who don't have drivers licences, what stops that being used with a birth certificate?
    I risk a £60k fine, what protection do I have given that that photo id is issued for elections alone.
    If you've done your due diligence and taken photo ID, birth certificate and NI number then that should be it. That is more than the law requires.

    If you do what the law requires there should be no fine. If there is, then fixing that is better than issuing a new ID card.
    You best start campaigning to fix the law then because at the moment it's really simple

    No means of doing remote verification (i.e. no passport) - next candidate please...

    It doesn't matter what the law allows, most people want a risk free approach at the cheapest price possible...
    So we're settled then that there's no need for introducing universal ID.

    You're tackling the problem at the wrong end.
    No I'm pointing out a problem in reality that you don't seem to care about because you've got your house a job and a passport.
    We agree a problem exists, we disagree on the solution.

    The problem is authoritarian regulations being misapplied to address an unrelated problem.

    Your solution is more authoritarianism. My solution is less.
    I'm sorry but I haven't got a clue what your solution to companies insisting on rejecting anyone without passports is?

    And remember i'm looking at this from the employer side of things - I'm facing a £60,000 fine if I screw up - so how do you make my life easier and allow me to employ someone without said passport removing all risk of that fine..
    Preference 1: Abolish the requirement for checks in the first place and tackle the issue at source. Anyone in this country legally should be allowed to work legally.

    Preference 2: Liberalise the law so that any firm that has taken correct documentation required has no risk of fines.

    Preference 3: Offer ID to anyone who needs it, free at the point of use.

    Not needed at all: A new authoritarian universal ID or database.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,767
    edited July 21

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Kemi fans please explain.

    Also those PBers who got excited by 3 polls showing Labour in third place last week explain.
    Why do Kemi fans need to explain that? She's still up on the previous poll.

    That's Burnham firming up DKs and LD and Green voters moving back to Labour.

    There could be more to come. I see Labour's cap as 33-34% if the Greens are fully squeezed.
    The main thing I take from this is just how bad Starmer was and how much better Burnham is

    I expect polling leads for labour but not at all concerned for Kemi who is popular and 3 more years for politics to settle

    Indeed I am impressed with Burnham

  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 7,240

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    The trouble with this sort of thing, in any organisation, is convincing good people that the change is permanent. Whatever one thinks of the civil service it would be inhuman for a move like this to lead people to relocate themselves and their families, changing schools etc. only for “Number 10 North” to cease to exist in a few years.

    That’s why I think you’re much better off moving whole organisations (or large business units within them) than parts of them. Don’t have “Number 10
    North”, move a whole Department of State minus some life support around Parliament. DfT would be a good one: make DfT officials have to travel between Manchester and York a lot.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,452
    viewcode said:

    Those of you following the ipaper's series on "Who Broke Britain" (https://inews.co.uk/topic/who-broke-britain ) may be interested in the list and links below

    List
    Sir James Bevan (shit in the water - failure of the regulator model)
    Sir Chris Whitty (lockdown)
    Tony Benn (party leaders elected by the membership)
    Martin Lewis (saving in cash rather than investing in stocks)
    Irene Rosenfeld (lying takeovers by foreigners)
    Morgan McSweeney (faction fighter who alienated friends and failed to conciliate enemies)
    Steven Bartlett (rise of the podcast, death of journalism)
    Mary Whitehouse (rise of the pressure group)
    Nigel Lawson (privatisation)

    Links
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/james-bevan-what-he-did-to-this-country-4253589
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/boris-johnson-wrecked-britain-man-left-deeper-scars-4326071
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/hardcore-socialist-ruinous-idea-why-liz-truss-pm-4353094
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/martin-lewis-money-saving-expert-cost-britons-billions-4356949
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/american-woman-ripped-heart-cadbury-4448966
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/shadowy-maverick-pulled-labours-strings-sunk-starmer-4496353
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/steven-bartlett-glorified-pr-man-making-britain-worse-4448967
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/anti-sex-anti-fun-godmother-nimbys-gummed-britain-4615659
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/tory-sold-britains-greatest-assets-take-back-control-4634942

    Another reminder that those who do not subscribe to the i just get a big banner advert across the screen demanding they subscribe after clicking "I'll accept ads"
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 41,041
    edited July 21
    I'm feeling a bit cold and it's 26 degrees. How does that make sense? 😊
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,549

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    The big risk for any civil servant moving north is that No 10 North is abolished by the next PM, possibly in just three years, and then they will need to buy a house in/near London again.
    I would rather see Number 10 South abolished.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696

    eek said:

    FPT

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    So to provide ID cards for those without passports the cost is say £1.5bn, the cost to give everyone else 1 is say £200m more..

    So you are wasting £200m and creating an authoritarian nonsense that should not exist, lose/lose.

    Both cheaper and less authoritarian not to do that. Win/win.
    Nope - I'm making it easier - as the rules will be standard, to prove right to work status check the ID card..

    But again - I'm pleased to see you agree that without something a lot of people have problems getting a job because of their lack of easy to verify ID..
    The rules already are standard. You object that some people don't have something, so want to create a universal nonsense rather than fill in the gap - when you can just fill in the gap for less without doing that.

    There is no problem that needs fixing with a universal ID. Just do a solution for those who lack it, free at the point of use.
    The easiest would be to issue driving licences to non-drivers on request
    Except a driving licence doesn't confirm a person has the right to work in the UK.
    Photo ID is not legally mandated for proof of right to work, birth certificate and NI number combined are sufficient.
    And what tells me that the person named on that birth certificate is the person presenting that birth certificate...

    Been there - know people who were defrauded and handed a £20k fine.
    Photo IDs are available for free for elections for those who don't have drivers licences, what stops that being used with a birth certificate?
    I risk a £60k fine, what protection do I have given that that photo id is issued for elections alone.
    If you've done your due diligence and taken photo ID, birth certificate and NI number then that should be it. That is more than the law requires.

    If you do what the law requires there should be no fine. If there is, then fixing that is better than issuing a new ID card.
    You best start campaigning to fix the law then because at the moment it's really simple

    No means of doing remote verification (i.e. no passport) - next candidate please...

    It doesn't matter what the law allows, most people want a risk free approach at the cheapest price possible...
    So we're settled then that there's no need for introducing universal ID.

    You're tackling the problem at the wrong end.
    No I'm pointing out a problem in reality that you don't seem to care about because you've got your house a job and a passport.
    We agree a problem exists, we disagree on the solution.

    The problem is authoritarian regulations being misapplied to address an unrelated problem.

    Your solution is more authoritarianism. My solution is less.
    I'm sorry but I haven't got a clue what your solution to companies insisting on rejecting anyone without passports is?

    And remember i'm looking at this from the employer side of things - I'm facing a £60,000 fine if I screw up - so how do you make my life easier and allow me to employ someone without said passport removing all risk of that fine..
    Preference 1: Abolish the requirement for checks in the first place and tackle the issue at source. Anyone in this country legally should be allowed to work legally.

    Preference 2: Liberalise the law so that any firm that has taken correct documentation required has no risk of fines.

    Preference 3: Offer ID to anyone who needs it, free at the point of use.

    Not needed at all: A new authoritarian universal ID or database.
    1. Your second paragraph overrides the first - how do I know they are legally in the UK - that requires Id.
    2. doesn't fix anything. - because I still don't know if the paperwork belongs to the person doing the work - this is how Uber Eats and co have got away with things for so long..
    3. that requires all the steps identical to issuing a passport - see @DecrepiterJohnL for the issues you've got there - even getting the paperwork to apply can cost money.

    None of those things are solving the problem I have which is anyone screws up I get a £60,000 fine.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,884
    viewcode said:

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    Baxtering via https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/

    con 39 seats
    lab 255
    lib 67
    ref 239
    gre 6
    snp 21
    pla 3
    oth 2
    NI 18

    marginal lib-lab coalition, esp when sf don't sit

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=N&CON=18&LAB=28&LIB=10&Reform=28&Green=10&UKIP=&TVCON=100&TVLAB=100&TVLIB=100&TVReform=100&TVGreen=100&TVUKIP=&TVNAT=100&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTReform=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2024base

    That’s missing the political reality that, provided Burnham is serious in pushing forward his political reform agenda (PR, an elected Lords, devolution to local government), the LibDem strategy will be to stay close, be critical friends, and lend him every help they can in pushing his reform proposals forward. Such that the next GE could see a level of tactical voting switches between Labour, LibDem and possibly Green, greater than ever before.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,844
    edited July 21
    Dopermean said:

    viewcode said:

    Those of you following the ipaper's series on "Who Broke Britain" (https://inews.co.uk/topic/who-broke-britain ) may be interested in the list and links below

    List
    Sir James Bevan (shit in the water - failure of the regulator model)
    Sir Chris Whitty (lockdown)
    Tony Benn (party leaders elected by the membership)
    Martin Lewis (saving in cash rather than investing in stocks)
    Irene Rosenfeld (lying takeovers by foreigners)
    Morgan McSweeney (faction fighter who alienated friends and failed to conciliate enemies)
    Steven Bartlett (rise of the podcast, death of journalism)
    Mary Whitehouse (rise of the pressure group)
    Nigel Lawson (privatisation)

    Links
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/james-bevan-what-he-did-to-this-country-4253589
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/boris-johnson-wrecked-britain-man-left-deeper-scars-4326071
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/hardcore-socialist-ruinous-idea-why-liz-truss-pm-4353094
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/martin-lewis-money-saving-expert-cost-britons-billions-4356949
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/american-woman-ripped-heart-cadbury-4448966
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/shadowy-maverick-pulled-labours-strings-sunk-starmer-4496353
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/steven-bartlett-glorified-pr-man-making-britain-worse-4448967
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/anti-sex-anti-fun-godmother-nimbys-gummed-britain-4615659
    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/tory-sold-britains-greatest-assets-take-back-control-4634942

    Another reminder that those who do not subscribe to the i just get a big banner advert across the screen demanding they subscribe after clicking "I'll accept ads"
    These work for me for some reason.

    My facebook feed is full of tempting stories from the i which I cannot read for the reasons you say. But I've just read the traducing of Chris Whitty from the link above and it worked fine.

    EDIT: but none of the others do. Perhaps you get exactly one free article.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696
    edited July 21

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    The big risk for any civil servant moving north is that No 10 North is abolished by the next PM, possibly in just three years, and then they will need to buy a house in/near London again.
    I would rather see Number 10 South abolished.
    I'm wondering when Parliament reaches the point that the can, can no longer be kicked further and the decision is finally made over how it's repaired / replaced and where the replacement is built...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 41,041

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Isn't it interesting how Labour are taking all their new support from other left-wing parties.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,884
    Andy_JS said:

    I'm feeling a bit cold and it's 26 degrees. How does that make sense? 😊

    Go back into your sauna.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,990
    Are people seriously arguing that in three years time a Party will win an election on the promise to move a shed load of jobs back to London?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,884
    edited July 21

    Horrific details of the murder of Anne Widdecombe. He's been to Westminster Magistrates and is up in the Old Bailey this afternoon? Hopefully he pleads guilty, her family have been through enough.Utter scumbag.

    The remarkable thing is how quickly - after one false arrest - they caught him. I’m thinking either he left a trail astoundingly easy to follow, or our secret services were on to him already? Assuming he is guilty as charged, obvs.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 25,093
    Nigelb said:

    FPT: Good morning.

    Burnham’s coronation has brought me back to PB after a long absence.

    Healey was the obvious choice for Chancellor.
    I’m surprised the commentariat are surprised:
    Miliband too dangerous; Mahmood no proper experience.

    Haigh becoming Minister for Policy (essentially) also a good move, despite my misgivings over her old fraud conviction. She was one of the few Starmer appointments with a working policy brain.

    Streeting to Defence - interesting; Phillipson sidelined - good; new AI ministry - excellent.

    In other areas, I have a more mixed opinion. Too many firings of perfectly serviceable ministers, just because they were Starmerites, if such a thing ever really existed. Perhaps more accurate to say they were not firm Burnhamites. The new government is thereby “clubbier” than any I remember - this can be seen in the sheer concentration of Northern ministers.

    The electricity announcement shows that Burnham is politically canny in a way that Starmer could never be. It’s a rounding error on the national accounts, and it signals that the new government is “on your side”.
    This is a positive start.

    The anti-case for Miliband's appointment.
    Not entirely unfair.

    Miliband's central role in nixing #UK (& thus, US) response to chemical weapons use in #Syria had **huge** global impacts:

    - #Russia spurred on to invade #Ukraine
    - Triggered the #Syria refugee crisis... which fueled far-right populism...

    https://x.com/Charles_Lister/status/2079571195322597535
    You can make that case. I can see some merit in it. But people equally make the case that the Western intervention in Libya, which helped to topple Gaddafi, is responsible for the chaos there, and the contribution that makes to the migrant crisis. And that intervention succeeded on its own terms - it prevented a slaughter in Benghazi, and led to the fall of Gaddafi.

    What might the consequences had been if the UK and US had conducted airstrikes on Syria, and they had failed to prevent the continued use of chemical weapons? That might have had even worse consequences in terms of diminishing Western deterrence power.

    And I think it was Biden sticking to Trump's plan to withdraw from Afghanistan, and the humiliating fall of Kabul that resulted, that did most to persuade Putin he could invade Ukraine in 2022. The experience gained by Russia fighting for Assad in Syria was, I think, of less importance.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696
    IanB2 said:

    Horrific details of the murder of Anne Widdecombe. He's been to Westminster Magistrates and is up in the Old Bailey this afternoon? Hopefully he pleads guilty, her family have been through enough.Utter scumbag.

    The remarkable thing is how quickly - after one false arrest - they caught him. I’m thinking either he left a trail astoundingly easy to follow, or our secret services were on to him already? Assuming he is guilty as charged, obvs.
    I suspect it's a few cameras capturing the Corsa's number plate and then following up.

    Remember that the time frame was very helpfully narrowed down to 20 minutes by Channel 5....
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696
    dixiedean said:

    Are people seriously arguing that in three years time a Party will win an election on the promise to move a shed load of jobs back to London?

    I'm sat near Treasury North, that really isn't going anywhere as it works...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,336
    Nigelb said:

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    I hope this is taken the right way but what is the fecking point of this? In the modern world of online meetings you do not need to be in the same city, let alone the room. It might have been a bigger thing 40 years ago, but now?

    The BBC moved a lot of Salford which just meant the talent all kept their London homes and got flats/houses up north. What was the point?
    To reset the balance of the country's political geography.
    I suspect it will be more effective than you imagine.
    It is not in itself devolution, though. Rather the opposite, it may be used as a reason for not devolving power now that the central authority has an outpost in Manchester.

    And why Manchester other than that's where Burnham lives? If this is such a good idea, why not Birmingham, Ilfracombe, Newcastle or even Clacton? At least it's not Brussels to Strasbourg. But it is getting close to the soft corruption we used to look askance at abroad: vote for me, for public munificence in your area.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,549
    edited July 21
    eek said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    So to provide ID cards for those without passports the cost is say £1.5bn, the cost to give everyone else 1 is say £200m more..

    So you are wasting £200m and creating an authoritarian nonsense that should not exist, lose/lose.

    Both cheaper and less authoritarian not to do that. Win/win.
    Nope - I'm making it easier - as the rules will be standard, to prove right to work status check the ID card..

    But again - I'm pleased to see you agree that without something a lot of people have problems getting a job because of their lack of easy to verify ID..
    The rules already are standard. You object that some people don't have something, so want to create a universal nonsense rather than fill in the gap - when you can just fill in the gap for less without doing that.

    There is no problem that needs fixing with a universal ID. Just do a solution for those who lack it, free at the point of use.
    The easiest would be to issue driving licences to non-drivers on request
    Except a driving licence doesn't confirm a person has the right to work in the UK.
    Photo ID is not legally mandated for proof of right to work, birth certificate and NI number combined are sufficient.
    And what tells me that the person named on that birth certificate is the person presenting that birth certificate...

    Been there - know people who were defrauded and handed a £20k fine.
    Photo IDs are available for free for elections for those who don't have drivers licences, what stops that being used with a birth certificate?
    I risk a £60k fine, what protection do I have given that that photo id is issued for elections alone.
    If you've done your due diligence and taken photo ID, birth certificate and NI number then that should be it. That is more than the law requires.

    If you do what the law requires there should be no fine. If there is, then fixing that is better than issuing a new ID card.
    You best start campaigning to fix the law then because at the moment it's really simple

    No means of doing remote verification (i.e. no passport) - next candidate please...

    It doesn't matter what the law allows, most people want a risk free approach at the cheapest price possible...
    So we're settled then that there's no need for introducing universal ID.

    You're tackling the problem at the wrong end.
    No I'm pointing out a problem in reality that you don't seem to care about because you've got your house a job and a passport.
    We agree a problem exists, we disagree on the solution.

    The problem is authoritarian regulations being misapplied to address an unrelated problem.

    Your solution is more authoritarianism. My solution is less.
    I'm sorry but I haven't got a clue what your solution to companies insisting on rejecting anyone without passports is?

    And remember i'm looking at this from the employer side of things - I'm facing a £60,000 fine if I screw up - so how do you make my life easier and allow me to employ someone without said passport removing all risk of that fine..
    Preference 1: Abolish the requirement for checks in the first place and tackle the issue at source. Anyone in this country legally should be allowed to work legally.

    Preference 2: Liberalise the law so that any firm that has taken correct documentation required has no risk of fines.

    Preference 3: Offer ID to anyone who needs it, free at the point of use.

    Not needed at all: A new authoritarian universal ID or database.
    1. Your second paragraph overrides the first - how do I know they are legally in the UK - that requires Id.
    2. doesn't fix anything. - because I still don't know if the paperwork belongs to the person doing the work - this is how Uber Eats and co have got away with things for so long..
    3. that requires all the steps identical to issuing a passport - see @DecrepiterJohnL for the issues you've got there - even getting the paperwork to apply can cost money.

    None of those things are solving the problem I have which is anyone screws up I get a £60,000 fine.
    1. No it does not. It should not be an employers job to be migration officers and never used to be. If they are in the country, they should be able to work. If not, that should not be on the employer to deal with. There never used to be a duty on employers to check and I would liberalise back to that.


    2. So? That is all that is required and if taken there should be no offence. Better yet, do not require anything, see 1.

    3. So? So too would your scheme, so that is not a counter argument. And if your scheme does not, it can exist without universality too.

    All 3 deal with the problem of a fine. Abolish fines and you have zero risk of a fine.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696

    Nigelb said:

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    I hope this is taken the right way but what is the fecking point of this? In the modern world of online meetings you do not need to be in the same city, let alone the room. It might have been a bigger thing 40 years ago, but now?

    The BBC moved a lot of Salford which just meant the talent all kept their London homes and got flats/houses up north. What was the point?
    To reset the balance of the country's political geography.
    I suspect it will be more effective than you imagine.
    It is not in itself devolution, though. Rather the opposite, it may be used as a reason for not devolving power now that the central authority has an outpost in Manchester.

    And why Manchester other than that's where Burnham lives? If this is such a good idea, why not Birmingham, Ilfracombe, Newcastle or even Clacton? At least it's not Brussels to Strasbourg. But it is getting close to the soft corruption we used to look askance at abroad: vote for me, for public munificence in your area.
    There is a reason why Treasury North is sat a 5 minute walk away from a station with twice hourly trains to central London.
  • eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    Horrific details of the murder of Anne Widdecombe. He's been to Westminster Magistrates and is up in the Old Bailey this afternoon? Hopefully he pleads guilty, her family have been through enough.Utter scumbag.

    The remarkable thing is how quickly - after one false arrest - they caught him. I’m thinking either he left a trail astoundingly easy to follow, or our secret services were on to him already? Assuming he is guilty as charged, obvs.
    I suspect it's a few cameras capturing the Corsa's number plate and then following up.

    Remember that the time frame was very helpfully narrowed down to 20 minutes by Channel 5....
    Once they have a number plate, the ANPR cameras across the road network will pick his vehicle up. If Anne had CCTV on the property, this would have been done as soon as the footage was reviewed - remember they initially arrested someone fairly locally who presumably was at the property at some point.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 25,093
    eek said:

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    The big risk for any civil servant moving north is that No 10 North is abolished by the next PM, possibly in just three years, and then they will need to buy a house in/near London again.
    I would rather see Number 10 South abolished.
    I'm wondering when Parliament reaches the point that the can, can no longer be kicked further and the decision is finally made over how it's repaired / replaced and where the replacement is built...
    Do you mean when it burns down? It's surely only a matter of time.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,893
    FT Exclusive: A consortium of investors led by Amit Bhatia and backed by the Mittal family is in talks to buy a significant minority stake in Liverpool Football Club, in a deal that would value the English Premier League side at more than $6bn.

    ft.trib.al/GZChuKL
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696

    eek said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    So to provide ID cards for those without passports the cost is say £1.5bn, the cost to give everyone else 1 is say £200m more..

    So you are wasting £200m and creating an authoritarian nonsense that should not exist, lose/lose.

    Both cheaper and less authoritarian not to do that. Win/win.
    Nope - I'm making it easier - as the rules will be standard, to prove right to work status check the ID card..

    But again - I'm pleased to see you agree that without something a lot of people have problems getting a job because of their lack of easy to verify ID..
    The rules already are standard. You object that some people don't have something, so want to create a universal nonsense rather than fill in the gap - when you can just fill in the gap for less without doing that.

    There is no problem that needs fixing with a universal ID. Just do a solution for those who lack it, free at the point of use.
    The easiest would be to issue driving licences to non-drivers on request
    Except a driving licence doesn't confirm a person has the right to work in the UK.
    Photo ID is not legally mandated for proof of right to work, birth certificate and NI number combined are sufficient.
    And what tells me that the person named on that birth certificate is the person presenting that birth certificate...

    Been there - know people who were defrauded and handed a £20k fine.
    Photo IDs are available for free for elections for those who don't have drivers licences, what stops that being used with a birth certificate?
    I risk a £60k fine, what protection do I have given that that photo id is issued for elections alone.
    If you've done your due diligence and taken photo ID, birth certificate and NI number then that should be it. That is more than the law requires.

    If you do what the law requires there should be no fine. If there is, then fixing that is better than issuing a new ID card.
    You best start campaigning to fix the law then because at the moment it's really simple

    No means of doing remote verification (i.e. no passport) - next candidate please...

    It doesn't matter what the law allows, most people want a risk free approach at the cheapest price possible...
    So we're settled then that there's no need for introducing universal ID.

    You're tackling the problem at the wrong end.
    No I'm pointing out a problem in reality that you don't seem to care about because you've got your house a job and a passport.
    We agree a problem exists, we disagree on the solution.

    The problem is authoritarian regulations being misapplied to address an unrelated problem.

    Your solution is more authoritarianism. My solution is less.
    I'm sorry but I haven't got a clue what your solution to companies insisting on rejecting anyone without passports is?

    And remember i'm looking at this from the employer side of things - I'm facing a £60,000 fine if I screw up - so how do you make my life easier and allow me to employ someone without said passport removing all risk of that fine..
    Preference 1: Abolish the requirement for checks in the first place and tackle the issue at source. Anyone in this country legally should be allowed to work legally.

    Preference 2: Liberalise the law so that any firm that has taken correct documentation required has no risk of fines.

    Preference 3: Offer ID to anyone who needs it, free at the point of use.

    Not needed at all: A new authoritarian universal ID or database.
    1. Your second paragraph overrides the first - how do I know they are legally in the UK - that requires Id.
    2. doesn't fix anything. - because I still don't know if the paperwork belongs to the person doing the work - this is how Uber Eats and co have got away with things for so long..
    3. that requires all the steps identical to issuing a passport - see @DecrepiterJohnL for the issues you've got there - even getting the paperwork to apply can cost money.

    None of those things are solving the problem I have which is anyone screws up I get a £60,000 fine.
    1. No it does not. It should not be an employers job to be migration officers and never used to be. If they are in the country, they should be able to work. If not, that should not be on the employer to deal with. There never used to be a duty on employers to check and I would liberalise back to that.


    2. So? That is all that is required and if taken there should be no offence. Better yet, do not require anything, see 1.

    3. So? So too would your scheme, so that is not a counter argument. And if your scheme does not, it can exist without universality too.

    All 3 deal with the problem of a fine. Abolish fines and you have zero risk of a fine.
    On 1 your second sentence says only people legally in the UK can work - yet not everyone in the UK is legally here even ignoring the people legally here who can't work.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,360
    Andy_JS said:

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Isn't it interesting how Labour are taking all their new support from other left-wing parties.
    He's politically astute. Hillsborough, homelessness, attacking neoliberalism, saying not enough on Palestine, Fatch etc.

    That's what they all want to hear.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 3,335
    edited July 21

    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    Horrific details of the murder of Anne Widdecombe. He's been to Westminster Magistrates and is up in the Old Bailey this afternoon? Hopefully he pleads guilty, her family have been through enough.Utter scumbag.

    The remarkable thing is how quickly - after one false arrest - they caught him. I’m thinking either he left a trail astoundingly easy to follow, or our secret services were on to him already? Assuming he is guilty as charged, obvs.
    I suspect it's a few cameras capturing the Corsa's number plate and then following up.

    Remember that the time frame was very helpfully narrowed down to 20 minutes by Channel 5....
    Once they have a number plate, the ANPR cameras across the road network will pick his vehicle up. If Anne had CCTV on the property, this would have been done as soon as the footage was reviewed - remember they initially arrested someone fairly locally who presumably was at the property at some point.
    Most people don’t realise just how closely the UK population is surveilled. Combine ANPR data with mobile phone location data & narrowing down a list of possible suspects would have been straightforward if they weren’t aware enough to use the kind of evasion techniques that spies & career criminals engage in. Especially given the narrow time window as @eek points out.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 41,041
    edited July 21

    Andy_JS said:

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Isn't it interesting how Labour are taking all their new support from other left-wing parties.
    He's politically astute. Hillsborough, homelessness, attacking neoliberalism, saying not enough on Palestine, Fatch etc.

    That's what they all want to hear.
    Yes indeed. Reform will be very encouraged to see their vote holding firm against Burnham. But it's only one poll.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,360

    Horrific details of the murder of Anne Widdecombe. He's been to Westminster Magistrates and is up in the Old Bailey this afternoon? Hopefully he pleads guilty, her family have been through enough.Utter scumbag.

    I hope he's thrown in jail and they throw away the key, but how on earth did this ever happen?

    He looks like the sort of guy who plays World of Warcraft online, and posts a lot on 4Chan, including incelly stuff, but to actually do something like this..

    Why?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 25,093
    IanB2 said:

    Horrific details of the murder of Anne Widdecombe. He's been to Westminster Magistrates and is up in the Old Bailey this afternoon? Hopefully he pleads guilty, her family have been through enough.Utter scumbag.

    The remarkable thing is how quickly - after one false arrest - they caught him. I’m thinking either he left a trail astoundingly easy to follow, or our secret services were on to him already? Assuming he is guilty as charged, obvs.
    The false arrest is a bit weird in that respect. Makes me wonder whether they used facial recognition technology. It's not the sort of mistake they would have made if tracking a mobile phone or car.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,549
    eek said:

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    The big risk for any civil servant moving north is that No 10 North is abolished by the next PM, possibly in just three years, and then they will need to buy a house in/near London again.
    I would rather see Number 10 South abolished.
    I'm wondering when Parliament reaches the point that the can, can no longer be kicked further and the decision is finally made over how it's repaired / replaced and where the replacement is built...
    Most successful countries separate their political capital from their financial one/major city.

    It is long overdue we do the same.

    Move all but local politics and all but local civil servants out of London.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,511
    edited July 21

    Dura_Ace said:

    She must have been terrified/hurt at the end.

    Ann Widdecombe was struck by a hammer 21 times.

    And yet:-

    But earlier on Tuesday, the opening of an inquest into her death heard that while a post-mortem examination had taken place, "at this stage the precise medical cause of death has yet to be established".
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj03r77n07jo
    Her face did look like it had been hit by a hammer when she was alive so you can understand the confusion.
    With his hero-worship of Putin, our @Dura_Ace definitely has something of the night about him!
    His comment had all the desperate energy of “Look at me being edgy. Please.”.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 6,174
    Given how long it took him to get 27 people round the Cabinet table yesterday, Burnham needs to get moving on the rest of the appointments.

    If only so PB can move on from talking about ID cards
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Isn't it interesting how Labour are taking all their new support from other left-wing parties.
    He's politically astute. Hillsborough, homelessness, attacking neoliberalism, saying not enough on Palestine, Fatch etc.

    That's what they all want to hear.
    Yes indeed. Reform will be very encouraged to see their vote holding firm against Burnham. But it's only one poll.
    It's also a very early poll and it's going to take a while for Andy's statements to reach everyone.

    I suspect that 28% for Reform is also the most they will get as they are seriously transfer vote unfriendly. Add on all the gory details still to come about Reform's finance sources and an early general election where those stories can be used to destroy the Reform vote makes sense...
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 6,162

    IanB2 said:

    Horrific details of the murder of Anne Widdecombe. He's been to Westminster Magistrates and is up in the Old Bailey this afternoon? Hopefully he pleads guilty, her family have been through enough.Utter scumbag.

    The remarkable thing is how quickly - after one false arrest - they caught him. I’m thinking either he left a trail astoundingly easy to follow, or our secret services were on to him already? Assuming he is guilty as charged, obvs.
    The false arrest is a bit weird in that respect. Makes me wonder whether they used facial recognition technology. It's not the sort of mistake they would have made if tracking a mobile phone or car.
    Previous owner of the car? Brother of the arrested?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,360
    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Isn't it interesting how Labour are taking all their new support from other left-wing parties.
    He's politically astute. Hillsborough, homelessness, attacking neoliberalism, saying not enough on Palestine, Fatch etc.

    That's what they all want to hear.
    Yes indeed. Reform will be very encouraged to see their vote holding firm against Burnham. But it's only one poll.
    It's also a very early poll and it's going to take a while for Andy's statements to reach everyone.

    I suspect that 28% for Reform is also the most they will get as they are seriously transfer vote unfriendly. Add on all the gory details still to come about Reform's finance sources and an early general election where those stories can be used to destroy the Reform vote makes sense...
    You can see Burnham's strategy for his 10 year plan.

    Consolidate a left-wing vote in the low 30s and let the two right-wing parties checkmate each other.

    It has a shot at working.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,549
    edited July 21
    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    So to provide ID cards for those without passports the cost is say £1.5bn, the cost to give everyone else 1 is say £200m more..

    So you are wasting £200m and creating an authoritarian nonsense that should not exist, lose/lose.

    Both cheaper and less authoritarian not to do that. Win/win.
    Nope - I'm making it easier - as the rules will be standard, to prove right to work status check the ID card..

    But again - I'm pleased to see you agree that without something a lot of people have problems getting a job because of their lack of easy to verify ID..
    The rules already are standard. You object that some people don't have something, so want to create a universal nonsense rather than fill in the gap - when you can just fill in the gap for less without doing that.

    There is no problem that needs fixing with a universal ID. Just do a solution for those who lack it, free at the point of use.
    The easiest would be to issue driving licences to non-drivers on request
    Except a driving licence doesn't confirm a person has the right to work in the UK.
    Photo ID is not legally mandated for proof of right to work, birth certificate and NI number combined are sufficient.
    And what tells me that the person named on that birth certificate is the person presenting that birth certificate...

    Been there - know people who were defrauded and handed a £20k fine.
    Photo IDs are available for free for elections for those who don't have drivers licences, what stops that being used with a birth certificate?
    I risk a £60k fine, what protection do I have given that that photo id is issued for elections alone.
    If you've done your due diligence and taken photo ID, birth certificate and NI number then that should be it. That is more than the law requires.

    If you do what the law requires there should be no fine. If there is, then fixing that is better than issuing a new ID card.
    You best start campaigning to fix the law then because at the moment it's really simple

    No means of doing remote verification (i.e. no passport) - next candidate please...

    It doesn't matter what the law allows, most people want a risk free approach at the cheapest price possible...
    So we're settled then that there's no need for introducing universal ID.

    You're tackling the problem at the wrong end.
    No I'm pointing out a problem in reality that you don't seem to care about because you've got your house a job and a passport.
    We agree a problem exists, we disagree on the solution.

    The problem is authoritarian regulations being misapplied to address an unrelated problem.

    Your solution is more authoritarianism. My solution is less.
    I'm sorry but I haven't got a clue what your solution to companies insisting on rejecting anyone without passports is?

    And remember i'm looking at this from the employer side of things - I'm facing a £60,000 fine if I screw up - so how do you make my life easier and allow me to employ someone without said passport removing all risk of that fine..
    Preference 1: Abolish the requirement for checks in the first place and tackle the issue at source. Anyone in this country legally should be allowed to work legally.

    Preference 2: Liberalise the law so that any firm that has taken correct documentation required has no risk of fines.

    Preference 3: Offer ID to anyone who needs it, free at the point of use.

    Not needed at all: A new authoritarian universal ID or database.
    1. Your second paragraph overrides the first - how do I know they are legally in the UK - that requires Id.
    2. doesn't fix anything. - because I still don't know if the paperwork belongs to the person doing the work - this is how Uber Eats and co have got away with things for so long..
    3. that requires all the steps identical to issuing a passport - see @DecrepiterJohnL for the issues you've got there - even getting the paperwork to apply can cost money.

    None of those things are solving the problem I have which is anyone screws up I get a £60,000 fine.
    1. No it does not. It should not be an employers job to be migration officers and never used to be. If they are in the country, they should be able to work. If not, that should not be on the employer to deal with. There never used to be a duty on employers to check and I would liberalise back to that.


    2. So? That is all that is required and if taken there should be no offence. Better yet, do not require anything, see 1.

    3. So? So too would your scheme, so that is not a counter argument. And if your scheme does not, it can exist without universality too.

    All 3 deal with the problem of a fine. Abolish fines and you have zero risk of a fine.
    On 1 your second sentence says only people legally in the UK can work - yet not everyone in the UK is legally here even ignoring the people legally here who can't work.
    No it is not. Read it again.

    Saying anyone here legally should be able to work != saying anyone not here legally should not. Nor does it = saying that it is the employers responsibility to ensure they don't.

    The UK existed just fine without this mandate to check ID that never existed at all through any of eg Thatcher's term in office.

    The solution to illiberalism is to liberalise, not add more illiberalism.

    It should not be an employers responsibility to be border patrol, and never used to be.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,360
    IanB2 said:

    Horrific details of the murder of Anne Widdecombe. He's been to Westminster Magistrates and is up in the Old Bailey this afternoon? Hopefully he pleads guilty, her family have been through enough.Utter scumbag.

    The remarkable thing is how quickly - after one false arrest - they caught him. I’m thinking either he left a trail astoundingly easy to follow, or our secret services were on to him already? Assuming he is guilty as charged, obvs.
    It's probably very easy to find victims, and then very easy to find the perpetrators these days.

    My takeaway: fortify your property if you're a public figure.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 3,335

    Horrific details of the murder of Anne Widdecombe. He's been to Westminster Magistrates and is up in the Old Bailey this afternoon? Hopefully he pleads guilty, her family have been through enough.Utter scumbag.

    I hope he's thrown in jail and they throw away the key, but how on earth did this ever happen?

    He looks like the sort of guy who plays World of Warcraft online, and posts a lot on 4Chan, including incelly stuff, but to actually do something like this..

    Why?
    Self-radicalisation through ever tighter online social groups that end up looking an awful lot like cults from the outside maybe? We’ve already had one murderous rationalist / trans cult in the USA by way of example (the Zizians), it wouldn’t be totally out there for something similar to happen here.

    The same process that creates far right terrorists (of which we’ve seen a few over the years) can be just as effective at creating leftist ones, we just haven’t seen as many of those in recent years. A group can turn in on itself & self-radicalise to the point where violence becomes a logical outcome of the group’s internal logic & relationship to the outside world.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 34,096
    Hmmm.

    What would not renovating the Palace of Westminster pay for?

    The proposed current budget is £15.6 billion to £39.2 billion.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgp2pzqr84o
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 25,093

    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Isn't it interesting how Labour are taking all their new support from other left-wing parties.
    He's politically astute. Hillsborough, homelessness, attacking neoliberalism, saying not enough on Palestine, Fatch etc.

    That's what they all want to hear.
    Yes indeed. Reform will be very encouraged to see their vote holding firm against Burnham. But it's only one poll.
    It's also a very early poll and it's going to take a while for Andy's statements to reach everyone.

    I suspect that 28% for Reform is also the most they will get as they are seriously transfer vote unfriendly. Add on all the gory details still to come about Reform's finance sources and an early general election where those stories can be used to destroy the Reform vote makes sense...
    You can see Burnham's strategy for his 10 year plan.

    Consolidate a left-wing vote in the low 30s and let the two right-wing parties checkmate each other.

    It has a shot at working.
    He would need to defuse some of the anger from the right at the Labour government. At the moment I would expect quite a lot of right-wing anti-Labour tactical voting.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 64,125

    eek said:

    Whitehall officials offered move to No 10 North in Manchester
    ...
    The BBC has been told that the Northern branch of Downing Street will be overseen by cabinet minister and ally of Burnham, Louise Haigh.

    Haigh, who is the first secretary of state, is thought to have been asked to lead a new Office for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet (OPMC), which will give her control of key decision- making bodies across government.

    The OPMC will include No 10, No 10 North and teams within the Cabinet Office.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d8p0l29pxo

    More details (or tentative details in report). I wonder if civil servants moving to the frozen north will keep their London weighting as part of the incentive package.

    The big risk for any civil servant moving north is that No 10 North is abolished by the next PM, possibly in just three years, and then they will need to buy a house in/near London again.
    I would rather see Number 10 South abolished.
    I'm wondering when Parliament reaches the point that the can, can no longer be kicked further and the decision is finally made over how it's repaired / replaced and where the replacement is built...
    Most successful countries separate their political capital from their financial one/major city.

    It is long overdue we do the same.

    Move all but local politics and all but local civil servants out of London.
    England, and then the UK, has been heavily centralised on London for around a thousand years. Shifting that is unlikely to occur due to the centre of mass that's built up, including excessive transport spending (compared to everywhere else), cultural sites, and the fact that moving the financial (or political) centre will take a serious concerted effort.

    Not only would that require substantial, and consistent, political will, it would immediately face stiff resistance from both vested London interests and any rival city who doesn't want the designated 'new centre' to benefit.

    Anyway, just a flying visit. Morris Dancer away!
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696
    edited July 21

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    So to provide ID cards for those without passports the cost is say £1.5bn, the cost to give everyone else 1 is say £200m more..

    So you are wasting £200m and creating an authoritarian nonsense that should not exist, lose/lose.

    Both cheaper and less authoritarian not to do that. Win/win.
    Nope - I'm making it easier - as the rules will be standard, to prove right to work status check the ID card..

    But again - I'm pleased to see you agree that without something a lot of people have problems getting a job because of their lack of easy to verify ID..
    The rules already are standard. You object that some people don't have something, so want to create a universal nonsense rather than fill in the gap - when you can just fill in the gap for less without doing that.

    There is no problem that needs fixing with a universal ID. Just do a solution for those who lack it, free at the point of use.
    The easiest would be to issue driving licences to non-drivers on request
    Except a driving licence doesn't confirm a person has the right to work in the UK.
    Photo ID is not legally mandated for proof of right to work, birth certificate and NI number combined are sufficient.
    And what tells me that the person named on that birth certificate is the person presenting that birth certificate...

    Been there - know people who were defrauded and handed a £20k fine.
    Photo IDs are available for free for elections for those who don't have drivers licences, what stops that being used with a birth certificate?
    I risk a £60k fine, what protection do I have given that that photo id is issued for elections alone.
    If you've done your due diligence and taken photo ID, birth certificate and NI number then that should be it. That is more than the law requires.

    If you do what the law requires there should be no fine. If there is, then fixing that is better than issuing a new ID card.
    You best start campaigning to fix the law then because at the moment it's really simple

    No means of doing remote verification (i.e. no passport) - next candidate please...

    It doesn't matter what the law allows, most people want a risk free approach at the cheapest price possible...
    So we're settled then that there's no need for introducing universal ID.

    You're tackling the problem at the wrong end.
    No I'm pointing out a problem in reality that you don't seem to care about because you've got your house a job and a passport.
    We agree a problem exists, we disagree on the solution.

    The problem is authoritarian regulations being misapplied to address an unrelated problem.

    Your solution is more authoritarianism. My solution is less.
    I'm sorry but I haven't got a clue what your solution to companies insisting on rejecting anyone without passports is?

    And remember i'm looking at this from the employer side of things - I'm facing a £60,000 fine if I screw up - so how do you make my life easier and allow me to employ someone without said passport removing all risk of that fine..
    Preference 1: Abolish the requirement for checks in the first place and tackle the issue at source. Anyone in this country legally should be allowed to work legally.

    Preference 2: Liberalise the law so that any firm that has taken correct documentation required has no risk of fines.

    Preference 3: Offer ID to anyone who needs it, free at the point of use.

    Not needed at all: A new authoritarian universal ID or database.
    1. Your second paragraph overrides the first - how do I know they are legally in the UK - that requires Id.
    2. doesn't fix anything. - because I still don't know if the paperwork belongs to the person doing the work - this is how Uber Eats and co have got away with things for so long..
    3. that requires all the steps identical to issuing a passport - see @DecrepiterJohnL for the issues you've got there - even getting the paperwork to apply can cost money.

    None of those things are solving the problem I have which is anyone screws up I get a £60,000 fine.
    1. No it does not. It should not be an employers job to be migration officers and never used to be. If they are in the country, they should be able to work. If not, that should not be on the employer to deal with. There never used to be a duty on employers to check and I would liberalise back to that.


    2. So? That is all that is required and if taken there should be no offence. Better yet, do not require anything, see 1.

    3. So? So too would your scheme, so that is not a counter argument. And if your scheme does not, it can exist without universality too.

    All 3 deal with the problem of a fine. Abolish fines and you have zero risk of a fine.
    On 1 your second sentence says only people legally in the UK can work - yet not everyone in the UK is legally here even ignoring the people legally here who can't work.
    No it is not. Read it again.

    Saying anyone here legally should be able to work != saying anyone not here legally should not. Nor does it = saying that it is the employers responsibility to ensure they don't.

    The UK existed just fine without this mandate to check ID that never existed at all through any of eg Thatcher's term in office.

    The solution to illiberalism is to liberalise, not add more illiberalism.

    It should not be an employers responsibility to be border patrol, and never used to be.
    Um we didn't have millions of illegal workers here when Thatcher was in power - heck for most of her time in power it was far more likely that brits were working illegally in West Germany then vice versa
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696

    Just seen that the Widdecombe murder trial is scheduled for June next year.

    We need more courts open and more judges working longer hours. Justice needs to be faster.

    June next year is remarkably fast. I've seen rape trials being booked well into 2027. Fraud trials are already into 2028,,,
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,451
    Andy_JS said:

    Kaboom.

    Kemi fans please explain.

    Latest Voting Intention:

    Burnham begins and Labour close gap on Reform

    Con 18% (+1)
    Lab 28% (+8)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Reform 28% (-)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Plaid 1% (-)
    Green 10% (-3)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Fieldwork: 17-20 July 2026
    (Comparison: 12-15 June)
    Sample: 2,027 GB adults


    https://x.com/deltapolluk/status/2079542421193458131?s=46

    More sensibly re-ordered in descending order:

    Lab 28% (+8)
    Reform 28% (-)
    Con 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-2)
    Green 10% (-3)
    SNP 3% (-)
    Other 2% (-2)
    Plaid 1% (-)


    Isn't it interesting how Labour are taking all their new support from other left-wing parties.
    Not sure it was surprising, though.

    The splits within the left bloc and right bloc were (and are) an important part of the story, and part of Starmer's failure was not throwing enough bones to his own side to stop them drifting off to the Lib Dems and the Greens and the sofa.

    Burnham has cheered a lot of them up, simply by not being Starmer. Whether he can keep his actual nationwide support base on-board, as opposed to his slightly imagined and much more localised one, depends on how he governs.
  • Just seen that the Widdecombe murder trial is scheduled for June next year.

    We need more courts open and more judges working longer hours. Justice needs to be faster.

    The first plea hearing is in November, which is absolutely ridiculous.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 41,041
    eek said:

    Just seen that the Widdecombe murder trial is scheduled for June next year.

    We need more courts open and more judges working longer hours. Justice needs to be faster.

    June next year is remarkably fast. I've seen rape trials being booked well into 2027. Fraud trials are already into 2028,,,
    The more serious the crime is, the faster the trial is usually heard.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,549
    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    So to provide ID cards for those without passports the cost is say £1.5bn, the cost to give everyone else 1 is say £200m more..

    So you are wasting £200m and creating an authoritarian nonsense that should not exist, lose/lose.

    Both cheaper and less authoritarian not to do that. Win/win.
    Nope - I'm making it easier - as the rules will be standard, to prove right to work status check the ID card..

    But again - I'm pleased to see you agree that without something a lot of people have problems getting a job because of their lack of easy to verify ID..
    The rules already are standard. You object that some people don't have something, so want to create a universal nonsense rather than fill in the gap - when you can just fill in the gap for less without doing that.

    There is no problem that needs fixing with a universal ID. Just do a solution for those who lack it, free at the point of use.
    The easiest would be to issue driving licences to non-drivers on request
    Except a driving licence doesn't confirm a person has the right to work in the UK.
    Photo ID is not legally mandated for proof of right to work, birth certificate and NI number combined are sufficient.
    And what tells me that the person named on that birth certificate is the person presenting that birth certificate...

    Been there - know people who were defrauded and handed a £20k fine.
    Photo IDs are available for free for elections for those who don't have drivers licences, what stops that being used with a birth certificate?
    I risk a £60k fine, what protection do I have given that that photo id is issued for elections alone.
    If you've done your due diligence and taken photo ID, birth certificate and NI number then that should be it. That is more than the law requires.

    If you do what the law requires there should be no fine. If there is, then fixing that is better than issuing a new ID card.
    You best start campaigning to fix the law then because at the moment it's really simple

    No means of doing remote verification (i.e. no passport) - next candidate please...

    It doesn't matter what the law allows, most people want a risk free approach at the cheapest price possible...
    So we're settled then that there's no need for introducing universal ID.

    You're tackling the problem at the wrong end.
    No I'm pointing out a problem in reality that you don't seem to care about because you've got your house a job and a passport.
    We agree a problem exists, we disagree on the solution.

    The problem is authoritarian regulations being misapplied to address an unrelated problem.

    Your solution is more authoritarianism. My solution is less.
    I'm sorry but I haven't got a clue what your solution to companies insisting on rejecting anyone without passports is?

    And remember i'm looking at this from the employer side of things - I'm facing a £60,000 fine if I screw up - so how do you make my life easier and allow me to employ someone without said passport removing all risk of that fine..
    Preference 1: Abolish the requirement for checks in the first place and tackle the issue at source. Anyone in this country legally should be allowed to work legally.

    Preference 2: Liberalise the law so that any firm that has taken correct documentation required has no risk of fines.

    Preference 3: Offer ID to anyone who needs it, free at the point of use.

    Not needed at all: A new authoritarian universal ID or database.
    1. Your second paragraph overrides the first - how do I know they are legally in the UK - that requires Id.
    2. doesn't fix anything. - because I still don't know if the paperwork belongs to the person doing the work - this is how Uber Eats and co have got away with things for so long..
    3. that requires all the steps identical to issuing a passport - see @DecrepiterJohnL for the issues you've got there - even getting the paperwork to apply can cost money.

    None of those things are solving the problem I have which is anyone screws up I get a £60,000 fine.
    1. No it does not. It should not be an employers job to be migration officers and never used to be. If they are in the country, they should be able to work. If not, that should not be on the employer to deal with. There never used to be a duty on employers to check and I would liberalise back to that.


    2. So? That is all that is required and if taken there should be no offence. Better yet, do not require anything, see 1.

    3. So? So too would your scheme, so that is not a counter argument. And if your scheme does not, it can exist without universality too.

    All 3 deal with the problem of a fine. Abolish fines and you have zero risk of a fine.
    On 1 your second sentence says only people legally in the UK can work - yet not everyone in the UK is legally here even ignoring the people legally here who can't work.
    No it is not. Read it again.

    Saying anyone here legally should be able to work != saying anyone not here legally should not. Nor does it = saying that it is the employers responsibility to ensure they don't.

    The UK existed just fine without this mandate to check ID that never existed at all through any of eg Thatcher's term in office.

    The solution to illiberalism is to liberalise, not add more illiberalism.

    It should not be an employers responsibility to be border patrol, and never used to be.
    Um we didn't have millions of illegal workers here when Thatcher was in power - heck for most of her time in power it was far more likely that brits were working illegally in West Germany then vice versa
    So the system we have today is not working then.

    What we have is not working is not a reason to continue with what we have.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,968
    In the US, "soul" has a meaning somewhat different meaning than in the UK. For example, "souls to the polls" means, roughly, that black churches should encourage their members to vote.

    And, of course, there is soul music: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_music

    I don't suppose there will be any parallel for the first, but I hope that Northern Soul's political success will produce some music worth listening to. Any evidence of that, so far? (If Wikipedia is right, the movement with that name has a way to go.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_soul )
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,938
    Phil said:

    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    Horrific details of the murder of Anne Widdecombe. He's been to Westminster Magistrates and is up in the Old Bailey this afternoon? Hopefully he pleads guilty, her family have been through enough.Utter scumbag.

    The remarkable thing is how quickly - after one false arrest - they caught him. I’m thinking either he left a trail astoundingly easy to follow, or our secret services were on to him already? Assuming he is guilty as charged, obvs.
    I suspect it's a few cameras capturing the Corsa's number plate and then following up.

    Remember that the time frame was very helpfully narrowed down to 20 minutes by Channel 5....
    Once they have a number plate, the ANPR cameras across the road network will pick his vehicle up. If Anne had CCTV on the property, this would have been done as soon as the footage was reviewed - remember they initially arrested someone fairly locally who presumably was at the property at some point.
    Most people don’t realise just how closely the UK population is surveilled. Combine ANPR data with mobile phone location data & narrowing down a list of possible suspects would have been straightforward if they weren’t aware enough to use the kind of evasion techniques that spies & career criminals engage in. Especially given the narrow time window as @eek points out.
    Depending on what he was driving his car may have been connected to the mobile phone network.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,884

    Horrific details of the murder of Anne Widdecombe. He's been to Westminster Magistrates and is up in the Old Bailey this afternoon? Hopefully he pleads guilty, her family have been through enough.Utter scumbag.

    I hope he's thrown in jail and they throw away the key, but how on earth did this ever happen?

    He looks like the sort of guy who plays World of Warcraft online, and posts a lot on 4Chan, including incelly stuff, but to actually do something like this..

    Why?
    Why indeed would Leon have had anything against Anne Widdecombe?
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,938
    Phil said:

    Horrific details of the murder of Anne Widdecombe. He's been to Westminster Magistrates and is up in the Old Bailey this afternoon? Hopefully he pleads guilty, her family have been through enough.Utter scumbag.

    I hope he's thrown in jail and they throw away the key, but how on earth did this ever happen?

    He looks like the sort of guy who plays World of Warcraft online, and posts a lot on 4Chan, including incelly stuff, but to actually do something like this..

    Why?
    Self-radicalisation through ever tighter online social groups that end up looking an awful lot like cults from the outside maybe? We’ve already had one murderous rationalist / trans cult in the USA by way of example (the Zizians), it wouldn’t be totally out there for something similar to happen here.

    The same process that creates far right terrorists (of which we’ve seen a few over the years) can be just as effective at creating leftist ones, we just haven’t seen as many of those in recent years. A group can turn in on itself & self-radicalise to the point where violence becomes a logical outcome of the group’s internal logic & relationship to the outside world.
    I wonder if we'll get his Reddit account name?
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