Skip to content

This should help Labour and Burnham’s popularity in the short term at least – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,263
edited July 21 in General
This should help Labour and Burnham’s popularity in the short term at least – politicalbetting.com

The new government is taking immediate action to give people some breathing space on the cost of living.From 1 October, VAT will be removed from domestic electricity bills – helping households with energy costs this winter and funded within existing budgets. pic.twitter.com/OCiAIUXb9Q

Read the full story here

«1345

Comments

  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 5,358
    Absolutely. It shows that he has the political instincts that Starmer lacked.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,884
    Second!
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 5,358
    And 1st - like Burnham's Labour will be, for a short while at least.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,717
    All well and good removing VAT from domestic electricity bills and I am sure it will be welcomed by voters but it will have to be paid for. Which likely means another tax rise elsewhere
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,717
    'Former President Barack Obama suggested Thursday that Vice President JD Vance was pushing a "blood and soil" vision for the country despite being married to the "daughter of an immigrant."

    https://www.foxnews.com/media/obama-warns-vance-pushing-blood-soil-version-we-people-mantra
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696
    HYUFD said:

    All well and good removing VAT from domestic electricity bills and I am sure it will be welcomed by voters but it will have to be paid for. Which likely means another tax rise elsewhere

    Long term yes

    Short term it’s a rounding error justified by a very large figure attached to ID cards that were also hated and that Burnham also scrapped

    As @Wulfrun_Phil points out Andy has the political nuance that SKS and co utterly lacked
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,236
    Getting rid of VAT on fuel is a very good start.

    Now to get rid of it on everything else as well…
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 61,005
    1,320 soldiers and 94 artillery/MLRS not reporting for duty in Ukraine today. Another net 520 troops not availble to pursue the SMO compared to yesterday.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,894
    Another good appointment, Wes Streeting as Defence Secretary, Defence in the hands of a Cambridge man.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 13,633
    @Casino_Royale you stated on the previous thread that vat on fuel being reduced to 0% is only possible due to Brexit.

    Not true. Perfectly permitted within the EU.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 8,033
    Darren Jones says none of VAT cut is funded.
    There was zero in Government budget for Digital ID.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 48,257
    I believe it amounts to around £4 per month on average. Half pints all round.

    I see the holy cow of gas remains untouched, and still sets the wholesale energy price in general.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,045
    kjh said:

    @Casino_Royale you stated on the previous thread that vat on fuel being reduced to 0% is only possible due to Brexit.

    Not true. Perfectly permitted within the EU.

    But not happening in NI.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,894
    FPT

    With all today’s action, I assume @TheScreamingEagles is on holiday.

    Until Sunday.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,814

    Another good appointment, Wes Streeting as Defence Secretary, Defence in the hands of a Cambridge man.

    Health seems like good preparation for the MoD because they are both massive, dysfunctional bureaucracies with entrenched, vested interests and are always only one mishap away from a storm of nightmarish headlines.

    Thank fuck Supermanc resisted the urge to put in some thick-as-shit ex-forces type like Robocarns.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,717
    edited July 21
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    All well and good removing VAT from domestic electricity bills and I am sure it will be welcomed by voters but it will have to be paid for. Which likely means another tax rise elsewhere

    Long term yes

    Short term it’s a rounding error justified by a very large figure attached to ID cards that were also hated and that Burnham also scrapped

    As @Wulfrun_Phil points out Andy has the political nuance that SKS and co utterly lacked
    Yes but then Burnham has been in politics most of his adult life and had more time to learn the skills of being an effective politician. Starmer only came into politics in his 50s after a lengthy and successful career in the law and as head of the CPS and having already been made KC. Burnham is also naturally more charismatic and empathetic than Starmer although probably less intelligent
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,894
    FPT

    Streeting has gone in there - Times Radio saying Justice Sec?

    Can a non lawyer really be Lord Chancellor?
    Liz Truss.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,720
    kjh said:

    @Casino_Royale you stated on the previous thread that vat on fuel being reduced to 0% is only possible due to Brexit.

    Not true. Perfectly permitted within the EU.

    My understanding is you can have 0% in the EU, but you can't reduce it to 0% if it was already on the oridinary or reduced rate - a ratchet effect if you will. This is why Blair could only reduce it to 5%. Can't add new things to 0% rate hence tampon tax difficulties etc.

    But happy to be corrected - this is from memory.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 8,033
    £45 is theoretical annual saving.
    But policy only lasts 6 months.
    So it’s 100% unfunded and the saving is not what Government is claiming.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 64,125
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    All well and good removing VAT from domestic electricity bills and I am sure it will be welcomed by voters but it will have to be paid for. Which likely means another tax rise elsewhere

    Long term yes

    Short term it’s a rounding error justified by a very large figure attached to ID cards that were also hated and that Burnham also scrapped

    As @Wulfrun_Phil points out Andy has the political nuance that SKS and co utterly lacked
    Yes but then Burnham has been in politics most of his adult life and had more time to learn the skills of being an effective politician. Starmer only came into politics in his 50s after a lengthy and successful career in the law and having already been made KC. Burnham is also naturally more charismatic and empathetic than Starmer although also probably less intelligent
    In TTRPG terms, I'd suspect Burnham would have better wisdom and (definitely) charisma scores than Starmer, but perhaps less intelligence (which does tend to be a dump stat).
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696
    carnforth said:

    kjh said:

    @Casino_Royale you stated on the previous thread that vat on fuel being reduced to 0% is only possible due to Brexit.

    Not true. Perfectly permitted within the EU.

    My understanding is you can have 0% in the EU, but you can't reduce it to 0% if it was already on the oridinary or reduced rate - a ratchet effect if you will. This is why Blair could only reduce it to 5%. Can't add new things to 0% rate hence tampon tax difficulties etc.

    But happy to be corrected - this is from memory.
    You may have noticed we left the EU a while back - and so we don’t need to follow those rules.

    Equally I actually doubt anyone country would care about exempting energy from VAT regulations.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,045
    MikeL said:

    Darren Jones says none of VAT cut is funded.
    There was zero in Government budget for Digital ID.

    That's not exactly true.
    There was no specific funding, but there was a commitment to find the money from within existing budgets, and that commitment has been removed.

    Since the measure comes in on Oct 1, and the Chancellor will announce a budget shortly after that, all this is just quibbling.
    The announcement is simply signalling that any pre-budget commitments will have at least some fiscal credibility. The markets will postpose their judgment until the budget so long a Brnham doesn't take the piss.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696
    edited July 21

    I believe it amounts to around £4 per month on average. Half pints all round.

    I see the holy cow of gas remains untouched, and still sets the wholesale energy price in general.

    Depends where you are - it wouldn’t even have paid for half a half over the weekend (in London). It will pay for a pint in my local though
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 20,059
    eek said:

    MikeL said:

    Nigelb said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC: "The UK's new Chancellor John Healey says cutting VAT from domestic electricity bills will be funded from cancelling the Digital ID programme."

    So the BBC has swallowed it in full.

    BBC Licence Fee Revenue £3.8bn. BBC employs 20,000 people - not a typo, yes TWENTY THOUSAND.

    And there's not a single person in the building there who is numerate enough to spot what a child at Primary School should be able to work out in a couple of minutes.

    It was reported as being fully funded in the current year.
    There will, of course, be a budget in the autumn, which will be the new Chancellor's first opportunity to make the books balance.
    I’m not sure even that is true.
    Were they really planning to spend £850m on Digital ID by next March? I doubt it - it hadn’t even started.
    Had the OBR forecast £850m on Digital ID this year?
    Sorry but this is completely half baked and is going to make Burnham look very silly when the IFS tells the media it doesn’t stack up.
    £850m is a balancing error for the Government.

    The point was to kill something off while at the same time providing a cost saving for the tax reduction. Yes it doesn’t add up but

    Killing is cards - popular
    Reduction in electricity bills - popular
    Figure is small enough no one looking at budgets will care - popular

    I’m impressed by the approach it shows that Burnham has far more political nounce than SKS ever had
    Terminating ID cards and allowing new O&G licences look to be exercises in stripping barnacles off the boat.

    The ID card project was stuck in the quicksands. Burnham had the choice of investing significant political and actual capital into the project or let it hang around as a zombie. Instead of which he makes a show of closing it as [non-existent] money savings that he can pass on in the form of lower energy bills.

    Granting the new O&G licences shuts down the nonsense about a North Sea bonanza and allows Miatta Fahnbulleh to quietly carry on with Ed Miliband's energy policy and transition.

    Burnham is a lot better at retail politics than Starmer I think
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,767
    Good morning

    Epic day yesterday with Burnham sacking Starmer's loyalists and replacing them with excellent appointments not least John Healey but also Streeting in defence, Mahmood remaining at home, sidelining Miliband to Foreign Secretary, and ending Phillipson's time in Education

    His cut in VAT is good politics and if I was a Labour supporter I would be very encouraged going forward

    Certainly Burnham has stamped his authority on his government and whilst he has many problems ahead Healey should at least reassure the bond markets
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 28,085
    Darren Jones goes in two-footed. Burnham needs to call an election to put a stop to that.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 20,059
    Dura_Ace said:

    Another good appointment, Wes Streeting as Defence Secretary, Defence in the hands of a Cambridge man.

    Health seems like good preparation for the MoD because they are both massive, dysfunctional bureaucracies with entrenched, vested interests and are always only one mishap away from a storm of nightmarish headlines.

    Thank fuck Supermanc resisted the urge to put in some thick-as-shit ex-forces type like Robocarns.
    I suspect this is why Streeting got the gig. His experience gained at the NHS in England, and now transferred to the MoD, is mixed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,045
    FF43 said:

    eek said:

    MikeL said:

    Nigelb said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC: "The UK's new Chancellor John Healey says cutting VAT from domestic electricity bills will be funded from cancelling the Digital ID programme."

    So the BBC has swallowed it in full.

    BBC Licence Fee Revenue £3.8bn. BBC employs 20,000 people - not a typo, yes TWENTY THOUSAND.

    And there's not a single person in the building there who is numerate enough to spot what a child at Primary School should be able to work out in a couple of minutes.

    It was reported as being fully funded in the current year.
    There will, of course, be a budget in the autumn, which will be the new Chancellor's first opportunity to make the books balance.
    I’m not sure even that is true.
    Were they really planning to spend £850m on Digital ID by next March? I doubt it - it hadn’t even started.
    Had the OBR forecast £850m on Digital ID this year?
    Sorry but this is completely half baked and is going to make Burnham look very silly when the IFS tells the media it doesn’t stack up.
    £850m is a balancing error for the Government.

    The point was to kill something off while at the same time providing a cost saving for the tax reduction. Yes it doesn’t add up but

    Killing is cards - popular
    Reduction in electricity bills - popular
    Figure is small enough no one looking at budgets will care - popular

    I’m impressed by the approach it shows that Burnham has far more political nounce than SKS ever had
    Terminating ID cards and allowing new O&G licences look to be exercises in stripping barnacles off the boat.

    The ID card project was stuck in the quicksands. Burnham had the choice of investing significant political and actual capital into the project or let it hang around as a zombie. Instead of which he makes a show of closing it as [non-existent] money savings that he can pass on in the form of lower energy bills.

    Granting the new O&G licences shuts down the nonsense about a North Sea bonanza and allows Miatta Fahnbulleh to quietly carry on with Ed Miliband's energy policy and transition.

    Burnham is a lot better at retail politics than Starmer I think
    Yes, but he and Healey have only a couple of months to get the books in some kind of order for a budget.
    The Defence Investment Plan, for example, is a ridiculous work of fiction, and the sums and issues involved can't really be kicked into the long grass again.

    He's certainly a better salesman than Starmer. But are the goods he is selling any good ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,236

    Another good appointment, Wes Streeting as Defence Secretary, Defence in the hands of a Cambridge man.

    If he follows up with his track record from Health he’ll try merging the Army, Navy and Air Force.

    Which might not be without merit, but he’ll end up ballsing up the redundancy packages, sacking all the wrong people and finally leaving us with pretty much no military at all.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 48,257
    BBC leading with Russian frigate live fire exercise in Channel, implicit that we must counter the Russki threat with loads of dosh.
    Schrödinger’s navy, simultaneously being Leyte Gulf-ed on a daily basis while posing an massive threat to this sceptred isle.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,579
    Nigelb said:

    MikeL said:

    Darren Jones says none of VAT cut is funded.
    There was zero in Government budget for Digital ID.

    That's not exactly true.
    There was no specific funding, but there was a commitment to find the money from within existing budgets, and that commitment has been removed.

    Since the measure comes in on Oct 1, and the Chancellor will announce a budget shortly after that, all this is just quibbling.
    The announcement is simply signalling that any pre-budget commitments will have at least some fiscal credibility. The markets will postpose their judgment until the budget so long a Brnham doesn't take the piss.
    A bit rich for tories to complain about "unfunded" commitments when in fact the Tories had black holes upon black holes with an unfunded commitment promised over and over again in the same unfunded amount.

    The FACT is that money was "set aside" for ID Cards, this is a small immediate pay-back.

    Its for 6 months (a) because that takes it to fiscal year end e.g next Budget (b) it covers far more expensive winter period as it starts on October 1st, (c) it adds to £150 reduction already announced in last budget and (d) and politically most important it add "breathing space".

    "Breathing space is not a one off £500 saving for everyone per annum but it will be an amalgum of 6-10 smaller cuts that will have aspiration to achieve that sort of figure.

    Burnham is politically VERY ASTUTE , he talks the language of the common man, talks about affording nice meals out, a day at a theme park, a day at the footy , a short holiday...we're not talking 3 weeks in Hawaii here but aspiration..

    He will politically want to say at Annual Conference in Autum, here are 6-10 small measures we've already taken to save money, give breathing space and an extra £500 in your pocket...a short break in Brighton, Blackpool , Torquay , Clacton, Scarborough etc...a ticket to the footy, a day at Alton Towers, Legoland

    BREATHING SPACE!

    The bigger decisions and the start of genuine realignment comes at the first Healy Budget

    Defence Bonds (Streeting)
    Major shake up of Social Care (Cooper)
    Alighnment of CGT to IT rates
    etc
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,814
    Nigelb said:

    the sums and issues involved can't really be kicked into the long grass again.

    They can and they will. It'll be all about the 2030 SDSR.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,045

    Good morning

    Epic day yesterday with Burnham sacking Starmer's loyalists and replacing them with excellent appointments not least John Healey but also Streeting in defence, Mahmood remaining at home, sidelining Miliband to Foreign Secretary, and ending Phillipson's time in Education

    His cut in VAT is good politics and if I was a Labour supporter I would be very encouraged going forward

    Certainly Burnham has stamped his authority on his government and whilst he has many problems ahead Healey should at least reassure the bond markets

    I'm amused that PB's Tories can't agree whether Sterling's appointment is "excellent" or "disastrous" (Casino).

    TBF, I've no idea whether he'll be any good in the role; he certainly has the ability to bend civil servants to his will, which is necessary to being an effective minister, but on its own that's hardly sufficient.
    FWIW, he sounds willing to kill a few sacred cows:
    https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/wes-streeting-defence-spending-concerns-5HjdbgC_2/
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,943
    tlg86 said:

    Darren Jones goes in two-footed. Burnham needs to call an election to put a stop to that.

    There will not be an election before 2028.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696
    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    eek said:

    MikeL said:

    Nigelb said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC: "The UK's new Chancellor John Healey says cutting VAT from domestic electricity bills will be funded from cancelling the Digital ID programme."

    So the BBC has swallowed it in full.

    BBC Licence Fee Revenue £3.8bn. BBC employs 20,000 people - not a typo, yes TWENTY THOUSAND.

    And there's not a single person in the building there who is numerate enough to spot what a child at Primary School should be able to work out in a couple of minutes.

    It was reported as being fully funded in the current year.
    There will, of course, be a budget in the autumn, which will be the new Chancellor's first opportunity to make the books balance.
    I’m not sure even that is true.
    Were they really planning to spend £850m on Digital ID by next March? I doubt it - it hadn’t even started.
    Had the OBR forecast £850m on Digital ID this year?
    Sorry but this is completely half baked and is going to make Burnham look very silly when the IFS tells the media it doesn’t stack up.
    £850m is a balancing error for the Government.

    The point was to kill something off while at the same time providing a cost saving for the tax reduction. Yes it doesn’t add up but

    Killing is cards - popular
    Reduction in electricity bills - popular
    Figure is small enough no one looking at budgets will care - popular

    I’m impressed by the approach it shows that Burnham has far more political nounce than SKS ever had
    Terminating ID cards and allowing new O&G licences look to be exercises in stripping barnacles off the boat.

    The ID card project was stuck in the quicksands. Burnham had the choice of investing significant political and actual capital into the project or let it hang around as a zombie. Instead of which he makes a show of closing it as [non-existent] money savings that he can pass on in the form of lower energy bills.

    Granting the new O&G licences shuts down the nonsense about a North Sea bonanza and allows Miatta Fahnbulleh to quietly carry on with Ed Miliband's energy policy and transition.

    Burnham is a lot better at retail politics than Starmer I think
    Yes, but he and Healey have only a couple of months to get the books in some kind of order for a budget.
    The Defence Investment Plan, for example, is a ridiculous work of fiction, and the sums and issues involved can't really be kicked into the long grass again.

    He's certainly a better salesman than Starmer. But are the goods he is selling any good ?
    Given how much politics is just gloss and presentation as few people look at the detail or care enough to articulately complain about it - I doubt it matters.

    Burnham knows that if you get in first with a simple story the complex counter argument will never be heard
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 28,085
    Hoyle will be doing his nut. This should be announced in the commons.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,943
    ydoethur said:

    Another good appointment, Wes Streeting as Defence Secretary, Defence in the hands of a Cambridge man.

    If he follows up with his track record from Health he’ll try merging the Army, Navy and Air Force.

    Which might not be without merit, but he’ll end up ballsing up the redundancy packages, sacking all the wrong people and finally leaving us with pretty much no military at all.
    Could call them the Old Kurrupt Warriors, so OKW for short.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 20,059
    MikeL said:

    £45 is theoretical annual saving.
    But policy only lasts 6 months.
    So it’s 100% unfunded and the saving is not what Government is claiming.

    Yes, but sort of no. ID cards were stuck in the quicksands. Proceeding with them would require additional funds that are currently unbudgeted. Cancelling the project therefore frees funds that would otherwise need to be allocated.

    But yes there's a sleight of hand going on.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,045
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    the sums and issues involved can't really be kicked into the long grass again.

    They can and they will. It'll be all about the 2030 SDSR.
    In which case they can be judged to have failed.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,767
    Nigelb said:

    Good morning

    Epic day yesterday with Burnham sacking Starmer's loyalists and replacing them with excellent appointments not least John Healey but also Streeting in defence, Mahmood remaining at home, sidelining Miliband to Foreign Secretary, and ending Phillipson's time in Education

    His cut in VAT is good politics and if I was a Labour supporter I would be very encouraged going forward

    Certainly Burnham has stamped his authority on his government and whilst he has many problems ahead Healey should at least reassure the bond markets

    I'm amused that PB's Tories can't agree whether Sterling's appointment is "excellent" or "disastrous" (Casino).

    TBF, I've no idea whether he'll be any good in the role; he certainly has the ability to bend civil servants to his will, which is necessary to being an effective minister, but on its own that's hardly sufficient.
    FWIW, he sounds willing to kill a few sacred cows:
    https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/wes-streeting-defence-spending-concerns-5HjdbgC_2/
    He was good at health and according to Deborah Haynes, Sky' defence spokesperson, his appointment will be welcomed by the military
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,451
    One of the concerns about Burnham is that he will be better at politics but worse at government that what went before.

    We went through this in 2022, didn't we? Cutting prices this way gives most of the benefit to people who need it least and attenuates the "someone needs to be using less" signal that needs to operate during a supply crunch.

    But I'm sure it will be popular.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,045
    .

    Nigelb said:

    Good morning

    Epic day yesterday with Burnham sacking Starmer's loyalists and replacing them with excellent appointments not least John Healey but also Streeting in defence, Mahmood remaining at home, sidelining Miliband to Foreign Secretary, and ending Phillipson's time in Education

    His cut in VAT is good politics and if I was a Labour supporter I would be very encouraged going forward

    Certainly Burnham has stamped his authority on his government and whilst he has many problems ahead Healey should at least reassure the bond markets

    I'm amused that PB's Tories can't agree whether Sterling's appointment is "excellent" or "disastrous" (Casino).

    TBF, I've no idea whether he'll be any good in the role; he certainly has the ability to bend civil servants to his will, which is necessary to being an effective minister, but on its own that's hardly sufficient.
    FWIW, he sounds willing to kill a few sacred cows:
    https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/wes-streeting-defence-spending-concerns-5HjdbgC_2/
    He was good at health and according to Deborah Haynes, Sky' defence spokesperson, his appointment will be welcomed by the military
    I make no judgments either way.
    I'm just struck by the lack of a party line on the appointment.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,236

    Nigelb said:

    Good morning

    Epic day yesterday with Burnham sacking Starmer's loyalists and replacing them with excellent appointments not least John Healey but also Streeting in defence, Mahmood remaining at home, sidelining Miliband to Foreign Secretary, and ending Phillipson's time in Education

    His cut in VAT is good politics and if I was a Labour supporter I would be very encouraged going forward

    Certainly Burnham has stamped his authority on his government and whilst he has many problems ahead Healey should at least reassure the bond markets

    I'm amused that PB's Tories can't agree whether Sterling's appointment is "excellent" or "disastrous" (Casino).

    TBF, I've no idea whether he'll be any good in the role; he certainly has the ability to bend civil servants to his will, which is necessary to being an effective minister, but on its own that's hardly sufficient.
    FWIW, he sounds willing to kill a few sacred cows:
    https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/wes-streeting-defence-spending-concerns-5HjdbgC_2/
    He was good at health and according to Deborah Haynes, Sky' defence spokesperson, his appointment will be welcomed by the military
    He thought he was good at health.

    That’s not altogether the opinion of people who had to put up with him…
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,894
    ydoethur said:

    Getting rid of VAT on fuel is a very good start.

    Now to get rid of it on everything else as well…

    Nah, VAT is a very egalitarian tax, we all pay the same amount.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/politics/2026/07/21/trump-expects-burnham-to-let-america-use-uk-bases-iran/

    Given that Andy isn’t going to change what SKS said and Iran is a mess of Trumps own creation - I can’t see Andy allowing bases in the UK to be used. So Trump is going to be unhappy

    Reality is - the US isn’t a country we can deal with honestly anymore
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 61,005
    edited July 21
    Is England's WC Bronze Trophy going to be paraded around the streets? Maybe with a couple of the lads in a minibus around Skelmersdale?

    A tannoy blaring "6-4 to the Ing-er-land..."
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,743

    tlg86 said:

    Darren Jones goes in two-footed. Burnham needs to call an election to put a stop to that.

    There will not be an election before 2028.
    There will, however, be 17 by-elections in Clacton before 2028.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,894

    Is England's WC Bronze Trophy going to be paraded around the streets? Maybe with a couple of the lads in a minibus around Skelmersdale?

    Victory over France deserves a Bank Holiday.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,767
    edited July 21
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Nigelb said:

    Good morning

    Epic day yesterday with Burnham sacking Starmer's loyalists and replacing them with excellent appointments not least John Healey but also Streeting in defence, Mahmood remaining at home, sidelining Miliband to Foreign Secretary, and ending Phillipson's time in Education

    His cut in VAT is good politics and if I was a Labour supporter I would be very encouraged going forward

    Certainly Burnham has stamped his authority on his government and whilst he has many problems ahead Healey should at least reassure the bond markets

    I'm amused that PB's Tories can't agree whether Sterling's appointment is "excellent" or "disastrous" (Casino).

    TBF, I've no idea whether he'll be any good in the role; he certainly has the ability to bend civil servants to his will, which is necessary to being an effective minister, but on its own that's hardly sufficient.
    FWIW, he sounds willing to kill a few sacred cows:
    https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/wes-streeting-defence-spending-concerns-5HjdbgC_2/
    He was good at health and according to Deborah Haynes, Sky' defence spokesperson, his appointment will be welcomed by the military
    I make no judgments either way.
    I'm just struck by the lack of a party line on the appointment.
    I am trying to be fair and not tribal, indeed I am not a member of the conservative party though I was a few years ago

    I really do think Burnham has made an excellent start and certainly will give all the opposition something to think about
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,707
    eek said:

    I believe it amounts to around £4 per month on average. Half pints all round.

    I see the holy cow of gas remains untouched, and still sets the wholesale energy price in general.

    Depends where you are - it wouldn’t even have paid for half a half over the weekend (in London). It will pay for a pint in my local though
    £8 pints? Where were you drinking? You wouldn't pay that kind of cash in SE14!
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 29,656
    I wonder how many people will now be expecting their energy bills to fall by 20%.

    Only to discover that the fall will around 2%.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,743
    Nicaragua’s communist president has just cancelled elections in the country. Maybe that will distract Trump and give him an easier military target than Iran?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,214
    People are acting like this one policy is the entire government programme.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,236

    People are acting like this one policy is the entire government programme.

    So far, it is.

    Or do you think he has a new Citizens Charter or Cones Hotline for later today?
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696

    Nicaragua’s communist president has just cancelled elections in the country. Maybe that will distract Trump and give him an easier military target than Iran?

    Much oil there?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 20,059
    edited July 21
    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    eek said:

    MikeL said:

    Nigelb said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC: "The UK's new Chancellor John Healey says cutting VAT from domestic electricity bills will be funded from cancelling the Digital ID programme."

    So the BBC has swallowed it in full.

    BBC Licence Fee Revenue £3.8bn. BBC employs 20,000 people - not a typo, yes TWENTY THOUSAND.

    And there's not a single person in the building there who is numerate enough to spot what a child at Primary School should be able to work out in a couple of minutes.

    It was reported as being fully funded in the current year.
    There will, of course, be a budget in the autumn, which will be the new Chancellor's first opportunity to make the books balance.
    I’m not sure even that is true.
    Were they really planning to spend £850m on Digital ID by next March? I doubt it - it hadn’t even started.
    Had the OBR forecast £850m on Digital ID this year?
    Sorry but this is completely half baked and is going to make Burnham look very silly when the IFS tells the media it doesn’t stack up.
    £850m is a balancing error for the Government.

    The point was to kill something off while at the same time providing a cost saving for the tax reduction. Yes it doesn’t add up but

    Killing is cards - popular
    Reduction in electricity bills - popular
    Figure is small enough no one looking at budgets will care - popular

    I’m impressed by the approach it shows that Burnham has far more political nounce than SKS ever had
    Terminating ID cards and allowing new O&G licences look to be exercises in stripping barnacles off the boat.

    The ID card project was stuck in the quicksands. Burnham had the choice of investing significant political and actual capital into the project or let it hang around as a zombie. Instead of which he makes a show of closing it as [non-existent] money savings that he can pass on in the form of lower energy bills.

    Granting the new O&G licences shuts down the nonsense about a North Sea bonanza and allows Miatta Fahnbulleh to quietly carry on with Ed Miliband's energy policy and transition.

    Burnham is a lot better at retail politics than Starmer I think
    Yes, but he and Healey have only a couple of months to get the books in some kind of order for a budget.
    The Defence Investment Plan, for example, is a ridiculous work of fiction, and the sums and issues involved can't really be kicked into the long grass again.

    He's certainly a better salesman than Starmer. But are the goods he is selling any good ?
    Burnham has put in a CoE who previously resigned over defence budgets and a defence secretary who is willing to take on dysfunctional organisations (admittedly one who added some dysfunction of his own). Unlike ID cards and O&G licences this feels like he wants serious policy making.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,894

    eek said:

    I believe it amounts to around £4 per month on average. Half pints all round.

    I see the holy cow of gas remains untouched, and still sets the wholesale energy price in general.

    Depends where you are - it wouldn’t even have paid for half a half over the weekend (in London). It will pay for a pint in my local though
    £8 pints? Where were you drinking? You wouldn't pay that kind of cash in SE14!
    Recently in London I paid £6 for a bottle of 330 ml of Coke (plus service charge!).
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696
    edited July 21

    I wonder how many people will now be expecting their energy bills to fall by 20%.

    Only to discover that the fall will around 2%.

    It’s well signposted removal 5% VAT from electricity is 5 words. It’s not war and peace with 29 sub clauses
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,451

    I wonder how many people will now be expecting their energy bills to fall by 20%.

    Only to discover that the fall will around 2%.

    In the short term, politics beats government.

    In the longer term, government beats politics.

    The catch is that, in the long term, all political careers are dead.

    (And if we're still in a hole in the winter, that 2% will become a somewhat lower price increase anyway. To be fair, energy boffins seem keen on the nudge towards electrification, but this seems a bit short-term for that.)
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 10,223
    edited July 21
    Dura_Ace said:

    Another good appointment, Wes Streeting as Defence Secretary, Defence in the hands of a Cambridge man.

    Health seems like good preparation for the MoD because they are both massive, dysfunctional bureaucracies with entrenched, vested interests and are always only one mishap away from a storm of nightmarish headlines.

    Thank fuck Supermanc resisted the urge to put in some thick-as-shit ex-forces type like Robocarns.
    Similar organisations, except the NHS is the more effective killing machine?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,236

    tlg86 said:

    Darren Jones goes in two-footed. Burnham needs to call an election to put a stop to that.

    There will not be an election before 2028.
    There will, however, be 17 by-elections in Clacton before 2028.
    Unless they see sense and vote for the great Count Binface, of course.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,451
    edited July 21
    eek said:

    I wonder how many people will now be expecting their energy bills to fall by 20%.

    Only to discover that the fall will around 2%.

    It’s well signposted removal 5% VAT from electricity is 5 words. It’s not war and peace with 29 sub clauses
    But only electricity, not gas. I doubt that subtleties (that domestic fuel has been on a reduced rate for years, or that this cut is only on one half) will land. That's what makes the sizzle per sausage ratio so good.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 10,223

    Is England's WC Bronze Trophy going to be paraded around the streets? Maybe with a couple of the lads in a minibus around Skelmersdale?

    Victory over France deserves a Bank Holiday.
    And a station - or a square at the very least.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,894
    tlg86 said:

    Hoyle will be doing his nut. This should be announced in the commons.

    It's fine, the House of Commons is now on its summer recess.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,624
    edited July 21
    Nigelb said:

    kjh said:

    @Casino_Royale you stated on the previous thread that vat on fuel being reduced to 0% is only possible due to Brexit.

    Not true. Perfectly permitted within the EU.

    But not happening in NI.
    Wonder if this very first gesture will blow up in Andy's face and provide another source of complaint for the unionist parties in Northern Ireland.

    Belfast Telegraph

    Because of Brexit, EU VAT rates apply on electricity bills in Northern Ireland so the cut will not apply there, instead the Stormont executive will be given funding to implement an equivalent level of support.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,894
    Battlebus said:

    Nigelb said:

    kjh said:

    @Casino_Royale you stated on the previous thread that vat on fuel being reduced to 0% is only possible due to Brexit.

    Not true. Perfectly permitted within the EU.

    But not happening in NI.
    Wonder if this very first gesture will blow up in Andy's face and provide another source of complaint for the unionist parties in Northern Ireland.
    Tough, they voted for Brexit, then let Boris Johnson cuck them.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 10,223

    One of the concerns about Burnham is that he will be better at politics but worse at government that what went before.

    We went through this in 2022, didn't we? Cutting prices this way gives most of the benefit to people who need it least and attenuates the "someone needs to be using less" signal that needs to operate during a supply crunch.

    But I'm sure it will be popular.

    An equivalent cut to standing charges would be much more redistributive. But not a direct government lever like VAT. Would need some careful regulation to implement that.

    This could be the first stop-gap before wider reforms. Let's do as Burnham says and hope :wink:
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,214

    eek said:

    I wonder how many people will now be expecting their energy bills to fall by 20%.

    Only to discover that the fall will around 2%.

    It’s well signposted removal 5% VAT from electricity is 5 words. It’s not war and peace with 29 sub clauses
    But only electricity, not gas. I doubt that subtleties (that domestic fuel has been on a reduced rate for years, or that this cut is only on one half) will land. That's what makes the sizzle per sausage ratio so good.
    Subtlety encouraging electrification which is ultimately a good move in my opinion. Makes it slightly cheaper to run a heat pump against gas for example.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,337
    tlg86 said:

    Hoyle will be doing his nut. This should be announced in the commons.

    The Commons is in its summer holibobs recess till September.
  • LDLFLDLF Posts: 185

    Is England's WC Bronze Trophy going to be paraded around the streets? Maybe with a couple of the lads in a minibus around Skelmersdale?

    Victory over France deserves a Bank Holiday.
    By John Simpson logic, it entitles us to Normandy.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 14,662
    edited July 21

    One of the concerns about Burnham is that he will be better at politics but worse at government that what went before.

    We went through this in 2022, didn't we? Cutting prices this way gives most of the benefit to people who need it least and attenuates the "someone needs to be using less" signal that needs to operate during a supply crunch.

    But I'm sure it will be popular.

    Electricity as a proportion of fuel costs is much higher for poorer households than richer ones. Any cut to VAT is going to shovel more cash to large consumers, but this is not the worst example, evdn after taking into account EVs.

    Selebian is right though - standing charges should be abolished ASAP if you really want to help poor households.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 57,620
    A small yet significant announcement. The overture to an autumn budget.

    Compare and contrast with Starmer/Reeves first announcement being to cut the WFA...
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,624
    edited July 21
    Eabhal said:

    One of the concerns about Burnham is that he will be better at politics but worse at government that what went before.

    We went through this in 2022, didn't we? Cutting prices this way gives most of the benefit to people who need it least and attenuates the "someone needs to be using less" signal that needs to operate during a supply crunch.

    But I'm sure it will be popular.

    Electricity as a proportion of fuel costs is much higher for poorer households than richer ones. Any cut to VAT is going to shovel more cash to large consumers, but this is not the worst example, evdn after taking into account EVs.

    Selebian is right though - standing charges should be abolished ASAP if you really want to help poor households.
    AFAIK the standing charges pay for the infrastructure and are not owned by the so-called electricity companies. So cutting these charges will undermine the economics of upgrading the grid for net zero. The only tools the government has is VAT or regulation. See Water.

    Governing is a bit more difficult that getting positive media stories.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 5,394
    edited July 21

    One of the concerns about Burnham is that he will be better at politics but worse at government that what went before.

    We went through this in 2022, didn't we? Cutting prices this way gives most of the benefit to people who need it least and attenuates the "someone needs to be using less" signal that needs to operate during a supply crunch.

    But I'm sure it will be popular.

    Yes, the signs so far are that Burnham will prioritise short-term populism over long-term sustainability. Not good.

    Edit: Though it is good that the cut is restricted to electricity.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 37,533

    Nicaragua’s communist president has just cancelled elections in the country. Maybe that will distract Trump and give him an easier military target than Iran?

    More likely it will give Trump ideas about the US mid-terms.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 4,539
    eek said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/politics/2026/07/21/trump-expects-burnham-to-let-america-use-uk-bases-iran/

    Given that Andy isn’t going to change what SKS said and Iran is a mess of Trumps own creation - I can’t see Andy allowing bases in the UK to be used. So Trump is going to be unhappy

    Reality is - the US isn’t a country we can deal with honestly anymore

    Yes, My American friends keep saying that Trump won't last forever, and while that may be true, the fact is that the American people seem to have voted for a criminal cretin twice, so the trust that Americans could- in general- be relied on is totally gone. We will rearm, but from now one, that will be at least in part because we need to defend ourselves against the Americans as much as the Russians or the Chinese or the Indians.

    Trump will be remembered as a catastrophic president. Though the really bad things probably won't start to happen until after he is dead.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 14,662
    Battlebus said:

    Eabhal said:

    One of the concerns about Burnham is that he will be better at politics but worse at government that what went before.

    We went through this in 2022, didn't we? Cutting prices this way gives most of the benefit to people who need it least and attenuates the "someone needs to be using less" signal that needs to operate during a supply crunch.

    But I'm sure it will be popular.

    Electricity as a proportion of fuel costs is much higher for poorer households than richer ones. Any cut to VAT is going to shovel more cash to large consumers, but this is not the worst example, evdn after taking into account EVs.

    Selebian is right though - standing charges should be abolished ASAP if you really want to help poor households.
    AFAIK the standing charges pay for the infrastructure and are not owned by the so-called electricity companies. So cutting these charges will undermine the economics of upgrading the grid for net zero. The only tools the government has is VAT or regulation. See Water.

    Governing is a bit more difficult that getting positive media stories.
    Just do it out of general taxation then . Not sure why low consumers of energy, such as someone living in a flat or with solar on the roof, should be stung as much as high ones.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,636
    GB News moaning about no Labour people wanting to chat to them this morning :lol:
  • Simon_PeachSimon_Peach Posts: 434
    Hopefully Burnham today will correct Starmer’s biggest blunder and announce a higher rate of VAT of 40% for private schools.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 6,175

    tlg86 said:

    Hoyle will be doing his nut. This should be announced in the commons.

    It's fine, the House of Commons is now on its summer recess.
    Only because Labour took away the possibility of delaying the recess by removing the Opposition Day.

    Hoyle will be rightly frustrated
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,045
    Inside the horrifying online network where children extort others to commit violence and self-harm
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ng-interactive/2026/jul/21/764-network-gamification-of-harm-the-com-cybercrime-ntwnfb
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,451
    Eabhal said:

    Battlebus said:

    Eabhal said:

    One of the concerns about Burnham is that he will be better at politics but worse at government that what went before.

    We went through this in 2022, didn't we? Cutting prices this way gives most of the benefit to people who need it least and attenuates the "someone needs to be using less" signal that needs to operate during a supply crunch.

    But I'm sure it will be popular.

    Electricity as a proportion of fuel costs is much higher for poorer households than richer ones. Any cut to VAT is going to shovel more cash to large consumers, but this is not the worst example, evdn after taking into account EVs.

    Selebian is right though - standing charges should be abolished ASAP if you really want to help poor households.
    AFAIK the standing charges pay for the infrastructure and are not owned by the so-called electricity companies. So cutting these charges will undermine the economics of upgrading the grid for net zero. The only tools the government has is VAT or regulation. See Water.

    Governing is a bit more difficult that getting positive media stories.
    Just do it out of general taxation then . Not sure why low consumers of energy, such as someone living in a flat or with solar on the roof, should be stung as much as high ones.
    The way to do the most good per pound of government spending is probably a time-limited means-tested benefits hike. If you can't bring yourself to do that, a cheque to each household.

    But we now have a much more political PM, so the success criteria are a bit different.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 34,096
    Eabhal said:

    One of the concerns about Burnham is that he will be better at politics but worse at government that what went before.

    We went through this in 2022, didn't we? Cutting prices this way gives most of the benefit to people who need it least and attenuates the "someone needs to be using less" signal that needs to operate during a supply crunch.

    But I'm sure it will be popular.

    Electricity as a proportion of fuel costs is much higher for poorer households than richer ones. Any cut to VAT is going to shovel more cash to large consumers, but this is not the worst example, evdn after taking into account EVs.

    Selebian is right though - standing charges should be abolished ASAP if you really want to help poor households.
    I don't think standing charges will be abolished - because standing costs are a thing that exists.

    We used to have "no standing charge" tariffs - self-builders or renovators who had cut their energy use by 50-80% loved the, - and they did not survive when economic circumstances became more astringent.

    In the UK we have had out of line prices compared to peer countries in Electricity being very expensive vs Gas (this is retail), with relatively far cheaper gas. There were steps made to rebalance that over the recent period, but there's more to come I think.
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,938
    Psychologically, this feels like it’ll make it harder to somehow tax domestic electricity production. Which is good thing.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,451

    GB News moaning about no Labour people wanting to chat to them this morning :lol:

    To be fair, most of the Cabinet had a very late night last night.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696

    GB News moaning about no Labour people wanting to chat to them this morning :lol:

    That’s going to be the case for the next few years - why would anyone want to go on there, starving them from content seems a very sensible plan
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 57,620
    Cicero said:

    eek said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/politics/2026/07/21/trump-expects-burnham-to-let-america-use-uk-bases-iran/

    Given that Andy isn’t going to change what SKS said and Iran is a mess of Trumps own creation - I can’t see Andy allowing bases in the UK to be used. So Trump is going to be unhappy

    Reality is - the US isn’t a country we can deal with honestly anymore

    Yes, My American friends keep saying that Trump won't last forever, and while that may be true, the fact is that the American people seem to have voted for a criminal cretin twice, so the trust that Americans could- in general- be relied on is totally gone. We will rearm, but from now one, that will be at least in part because we need to defend ourselves against the Americans as much as the Russians or the Chinese or the Indians.

    Trump will be remembered as a catastrophic president. Though the really bad things probably won't start to happen until after he is dead.
    Trump is running up a massive deficit, with the bills all coming in after he leaves office. It is the Wile E Coyote approach to economics and politics.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,884
    Foxy said:

    A small yet significant announcement. The overture to an autumn budget.

    Compare and contrast with Starmer/Reeves first announcement being to cut the WFA...

    Indeed; as a spending matter it's in the roundings, and not doing the ID card scheme is clearly an avoided cost to balance it off, in the short term at least. The more pertinent point is that Darren Jones, previously a mild mannered, competent and loyal minister, is clearly very p***ed off.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 5,394
    Eabhal said:

    Battlebus said:

    Eabhal said:

    One of the concerns about Burnham is that he will be better at politics but worse at government that what went before.

    We went through this in 2022, didn't we? Cutting prices this way gives most of the benefit to people who need it least and attenuates the "someone needs to be using less" signal that needs to operate during a supply crunch.

    But I'm sure it will be popular.

    Electricity as a proportion of fuel costs is much higher for poorer households than richer ones. Any cut to VAT is going to shovel more cash to large consumers, but this is not the worst example, evdn after taking into account EVs.

    Selebian is right though - standing charges should be abolished ASAP if you really want to help poor households.
    AFAIK the standing charges pay for the infrastructure and are not owned by the so-called electricity companies. So cutting these charges will undermine the economics of upgrading the grid for net zero. The only tools the government has is VAT or regulation. See Water.

    Governing is a bit more difficult that getting positive media stories.
    Just do it out of general taxation then . Not sure why low consumers of energy, such as someone living in a flat or with solar on the roof, should be stung as much as high ones.
    I suppose the argument is that there is a fixed cost associated with being connected to the grid. You still need cables to your house that have to be maintained and you still have the same administrative costs, regardless of how much electricity you use.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 81,374
    One thing this does is make comparing electricity tariffs easier, no more thinking "Does this one have VAT added" or not.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 2,041
    edited July 21

    One of the concerns about Burnham is that he will be better at politics but worse at government that what went before.

    We went through this in 2022, didn't we? Cutting prices this way gives most of the benefit to people who need it least and attenuates the "someone needs to be using less" signal that needs to operate during a supply crunch.

    But I'm sure it will be popular.

    Yes and no.

    Price signals are very important, there is far too much distortion in the domestic energy market (in both directions).

    However, putting VAT on domestic fuel amplifies the price signal, making domestic gas relatively cheaper than than domestic electricity per Kwh - (Vat being about 1p/Kwh on "normal" price electric and about 0.4p/Kwh on gas).

    This is a big problem when for policy reasons we are trying to shift people from a cheap solution (gas) to an expensive solution (electricity) for space heating and hot water.

    Personally, I think the electrification policy is dumb, given how insanely expensive we've made domestic electricity, but cutting VAT on electricity is at least rational in the context of the policy.

    The potential massive win that so far everyone is ignoring is binning ROC obligations on gas generation. Because gas drives the electric price most of the time, there is a gearing effect where scrapping ROCs (and thus cutting the cost of electric generated by gas) would significantly lower the average spot cost of electricity across all types of generation, not just gas.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 14,662
    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    One of the concerns about Burnham is that he will be better at politics but worse at government that what went before.

    We went through this in 2022, didn't we? Cutting prices this way gives most of the benefit to people who need it least and attenuates the "someone needs to be using less" signal that needs to operate during a supply crunch.

    But I'm sure it will be popular.

    Electricity as a proportion of fuel costs is much higher for poorer households than richer ones. Any cut to VAT is going to shovel more cash to large consumers, but this is not the worst example, evdn after taking into account EVs.

    Selebian is right though - standing charges should be abolished ASAP if you really want to help poor households.
    I don't think standing charges will be abolished - because standing costs are a thing that exists.

    We used to have "no standing charge" tariffs - self-builders or renovators who had cut their energy use by 50-80% loved the, - and they did not survive when economic circumstances became more astringent.

    In the UK we have had out of line prices compared to peer countries in Electricity being very expensive vs Gas (this is retail), with relatively far cheaper gas. There were steps made to rebalance that over the recent period, but there's more to come I think.
    Never really understood this argument. All businesses have standing costs to some degree, but these costs are usually rolled into per unit prices. There isn’t an entrance charge to pubs or supermarkets.

    A one-off connection fee makes sense. And they already exist.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 25,861

    Good morning

    Epic day yesterday with Burnham sacking Starmer's loyalists and replacing them with excellent appointments not least John Healey but also Streeting in defence, Mahmood remaining at home, sidelining Miliband to Foreign Secretary, and ending Phillipson's time in Education

    His cut in VAT is good politics and if I was a Labour supporter I would be very encouraged going forward

    Certainly Burnham has stamped his authority on his government and whilst he has many problems ahead Healey should at least reassure the bond markets

    He should have announced the VAT cut yesterday instead of going on about street sleepers, something that nobody is bothered about.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 5,394
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    One of the concerns about Burnham is that he will be better at politics but worse at government that what went before.

    We went through this in 2022, didn't we? Cutting prices this way gives most of the benefit to people who need it least and attenuates the "someone needs to be using less" signal that needs to operate during a supply crunch.

    But I'm sure it will be popular.

    Electricity as a proportion of fuel costs is much higher for poorer households than richer ones. Any cut to VAT is going to shovel more cash to large consumers, but this is not the worst example, evdn after taking into account EVs.

    Selebian is right though - standing charges should be abolished ASAP if you really want to help poor households.
    I don't think standing charges will be abolished - because standing costs are a thing that exists.

    We used to have "no standing charge" tariffs - self-builders or renovators who had cut their energy use by 50-80% loved the, - and they did not survive when economic circumstances became more astringent.

    In the UK we have had out of line prices compared to peer countries in Electricity being very expensive vs Gas (this is retail), with relatively far cheaper gas. There were steps made to rebalance that over the recent period, but there's more to come I think.
    Never really understood this argument. All businesses have standing costs to some degree, but these costs are usually rolled into per unit prices. There isn’t an entrance charge to pubs or supermarkets.

    A one-off connection fee makes sense. And they already exist.
    That's a fair point.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,696
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    One of the concerns about Burnham is that he will be better at politics but worse at government that what went before.

    We went through this in 2022, didn't we? Cutting prices this way gives most of the benefit to people who need it least and attenuates the "someone needs to be using less" signal that needs to operate during a supply crunch.

    But I'm sure it will be popular.

    Electricity as a proportion of fuel costs is much higher for poorer households than richer ones. Any cut to VAT is going to shovel more cash to large consumers, but this is not the worst example, evdn after taking into account EVs.

    Selebian is right though - standing charges should be abolished ASAP if you really want to help poor households.
    I don't think standing charges will be abolished - because standing costs are a thing that exists.

    We used to have "no standing charge" tariffs - self-builders or renovators who had cut their energy use by 50-80% loved the, - and they did not survive when economic circumstances became more astringent.

    In the UK we have had out of line prices compared to peer countries in Electricity being very expensive vs Gas (this is retail), with relatively far cheaper gas. There were steps made to rebalance that over the recent period, but there's more to come I think.
    Never really understood this argument. All businesses have standing costs to some degree, but these costs are usually rolled into per unit prices. There isn’t an entrance charge to pubs or supermarkets.

    A one-off connection fee makes sense. And they already exist.
    That connection still needs to be maintained - and it’s relatively common in business to have both a monthly fee (the standing charge) and a usage fee on top.


  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 46,804

    Another good appointment, Wes Streeting as Defence Secretary, Defence in the hands of a Cambridge man.

    Good to know we have a defence expert in charge
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 29,656
    eek said:

    I wonder how many people will now be expecting their energy bills to fall by 20%.

    Only to discover that the fall will around 2%.

    It’s well signposted removal 5% VAT from electricity is 5 words. It’s not war and peace with 29 sub clauses
    The headline is good but that also means that expectations will be raised.

    Yet when the bills come people will not have any noticeable reduction on the bottom line.

    And then they will ask where the 'promised 20% cut ' is.

    Yes, I know its not what was promised but people have a way of self-entitling themselves and creating memories to justify it.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 25,861
    Electricity isn't fuel.

    Natural gas is fuel.

    Heating oil is fuel.

    Petrol is fuel.

    Electricity isn't fuel.

  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,451
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    A small yet significant announcement. The overture to an autumn budget.

    Compare and contrast with Starmer/Reeves first announcement being to cut the WFA...

    Indeed; as a spending matter it's in the roundings, and not doing the ID card scheme is clearly an avoided cost to balance it off, in the short term at least. The more pertinent point is that Darren Jones, previously a mild mannered, competent and loyal minister, is clearly very p***ed off.
    Loyal to the old government, which makes him dangerous. He may be overdoing it, but if I had been sacked from the cabinet to make space for Louise Haigh, I think I would be an unhappy bunny.

    BTW, anyone done a map of the constituencies of the old and new cabinet? My impression is that the Granadaland mafia thing is real, but I'm not sure and some evidence would be good.
Sign In or Register to comment.