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Liz Truss says Andy Burnham won’t be PM at the next election, is she right? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,258
edited July 19 in General
Liz Truss says Andy Burnham won’t be PM at the next election, is she right? – politicalbetting.com

Liz Truss, the country’s leading expert on Prime Ministers triggering a financial crisis leading to their ousting, has predicted that Andy Burnham’s premiership will trigger a financial crisis and she says that “My prediction is that there will be another prime minister before 2029.”

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,699
    Unlikely, I think. Sorry, Liz.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,973
    She should know...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,584
    She's as right as she always is. That is not at all.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,594
    Has Kemi Badenoch kicked her out of the Tories yet?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 16,866
    Why do you do this to me? Every single time -oh, let's start a new thread because Stodge is on. Why?

    Anyway, this from the previous thread:

    I was musing on a comment from @Richard_Tyndall saying he was in favour of free speech.

    Nothing wrong with that in theory but of course speech is like tea, coffee or social care - it's a commodity. You can have as much as you want or are willing to pay for.

    If you have time and money, you can have all the speech you want. If you are very wealthy, you can hire people to do the speaking for you, advance your arguments and if you are wealthier still, you can own the platforms on which speech occurs so you can regulate who can say what and shut down those who disagree with you.

    Speech therefore isn't "free" - it's expensive though the cost of speech has fallen in recent times in some respects. It's easier to be able to have speech and have your say - all you basically need is a device connected to the Internet - whereas in former times you had to take your chance at Speakers' Corner and that could be a bearpit (as can forums like this).

    The other side is the impact of your speech - let's be honest, this forum might have some reach but not much whereas an article on X or perhaps the Daily Mail has more likelihood of being more widely read so those who control the speech on well-read sites have a lot of speech they can throw around.

    The truth is very many voices aren't heard - there are older people who don't have Internet connections and for whom a world increasingly dominated by online and app-based activity is isolating. There are people who don't have the time to speak and there are doubtless a myriad of other reasons.

    We won't have free speech until and unless everyone has an equal opportunity to express their view - we have a thing called elections which does that pretty well in truth - and all views (within the law to a point though the current legal status is unsatisfactory) can be heard equally.

    Forcing the Daily Mail to say something nice about Labour might be considered a tad coercive - it's a thought. Much though I would like to see all media contain a diversity and plurality of opinion, this can't be ordained by central Government diktat.

    You can't force speech to be free any more than you can force people to be tolerant. You can be intolerant towards intolerance but you have to accept people have a right to be intolerant within the law.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,723
    @jamesrball.com

    "No normal political conference features the spectacle of a former UK prime minister proudly introducing a former spokeswoman for Andrew and Tristan Tate – brothers accused of orchestrating a global sex trafficking and grooming operation – onto its main stage, to polite applause."

    @jamesrball.com

    In truly incredible timing for CPAC GB and for Liz Truss herself, the Tate brothers have just been arrested.

    https://bsky.app/profile/jamesrball.com/post/3mqychrgbi226
  • stodgestodge Posts: 16,866
    And this....

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Many sporting events suffer from "expansion due to perceived popularity" or how often can the Magic Cow still give the best milk?

    Horse racing - Cheltenham expanded to four days, Royal Ascot now five days, York Ebor now four days. The courses know the crowds will come and the money will flow.

    Wimbledon - no interruptions whatsoever to weather this year yet they still played the middle Sunday which they never used to. The matches are more spread out admittedly but we have a roof over the Centre Court so they can play till 10.30pm or later which of course they never could.

    Cricket - ODIs, T20 matches and such like scattered all over the place. Test Matches squeezed in tomake the cricketing summer look busy. Whatever happened to the Gillette Cup and the Sunday League?

    It's business - if you have a successful product, you want more of it because it brings in the cash.

    How much football can we add until all the players are injured?

    At least you don't have the same horses running each day of the meeting.
    You have the same jockeys riding the horses.

    Basically, Royal Ascot is more like gymnastics - there are different disciplines for different types of horses over different distances like the vault, floor, pommel horse etc.

    As always, most analogies don't bear close examination.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,973
    I see the Mail on Sunday is leading with its demand for a General Election.

    Like it did with all those new Tory PMs?

    Qiuite...
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,704
    edited July 19
    Deleted
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,704
    Scott_xP said:

    @jamesrball.com

    "No normal political conference features the spectacle of a former UK prime minister proudly introducing a former spokeswoman for Andrew and Tristan Tate – brothers accused of orchestrating a global sex trafficking and grooming operation – onto its main stage, to polite applause."

    @jamesrball.com

    In truly incredible timing for CPAC GB and for Liz Truss herself, the Tate brothers have just been arrested.

    https://bsky.app/profile/jamesrball.com/post/3mqychrgbi226

    Wait

    What !!!!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,723
    @levparnas

    Andrew and Tristan Tate spent the days before their arrest partying in Washington, D.C., as guests of Paolo Zampolli — Donald Trump’s U.S. Special Envoy for Global Partnerships and a longtime friend of Trump and Melania.

    Zampolli is the former modeling executive who says he brought Melania to the United States and introduced her to Donald Trump. His name has also surfaced repeatedly in reporting surrounding Jeffrey Epstein’s modeling-world connections.

    And there’s more.

    https://x.com/levparnas/status/2078640416233238817?s=20
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,836
    OT (Kind of)

    I heard for the first time this morning that Burnham is talking about loosening the grip of the whips, reducing their powers. Apologies if this aspect of his vision has already been discussed but just to say that, as I have advocated for this for years, I am pleased at least to see it is something being discussed seriously rather than just remaining a fringe idea.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 73,329
    Whilst we've all been distracted by football, the US-Iran war is escalating:


    Danny (Dennis) Citrinowicz ,داني سيترينوفيتش
    @citrinowicz

    The greatest challenge now is no longer military pressure, it's escalation management. It is becoming increasingly clear that events are beginning to slip beyond anyone's control.

    With virtually no trust between Washington and Tehran, mediators who appear increasingly exhausted, and a dialogue conducted primarily through military strikes, the risk of further escalation is now higher than the prospects for de-escalation. That is unlikely to change unless one side makes a meaningful concession, and there is little evidence that Tehran is prepared to do so.

    ...

    Unless something significant changes soon, this conflict is on a trajectory toward a far more dangerous phase, one that may become increasingly difficult for either side to contain.

    https://x.com/citrinowicz/status/2078597273601106294
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,259
    From a betting point of view, there is also the possibility that Burnham calls a snap election, in which case the answer is of course yes, he will be Prime Minister at the time.

    However, assuming there is no early election, I think it plausible the bloom will come off Burnham's rose before summer 2029, but not because of Truss's forecast financial crisis. Rather, I cannot see the special sauce of Manchesterism. An integrated bus system follows London; the redevelopment miracle is just Burnham funnelling George Osborne's grants to a single developer, Renaker. And at the first sign of difficulty, Burnham abandoned affordable homes and the clean air zone.

    At best, it all feels inconsequential. We don't know Burnham's plans in detail but already there are reports of push-back against folding DSIT if Britain is serious about AI and IT, and his flagship Number 10 in the north has raised questions around the practicality of our leaders commuting between London and Manchester. (Will there need to be a new not-Royal train? It's a long old drive, and as Rishi found out, helicopters, while practical, are not uncontroversial.)

    Is there more to Burnham than a human Starmer? There does seem to be the same technocratic conviction that the truth is out there and we just need to gather all the parties together and thrash things out over beer and sandwiches. Is it enough for three years in Downing Street? I'm not betting on it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,723

    Whilst we've all been distracted by football, the US-Iran war is escalating:


    Danny (Dennis) Citrinowicz ,داني سيترينوفيتش
    @citrinowicz

    The greatest challenge now is no longer military pressure, it's escalation management. It is becoming increasingly clear that events are beginning to slip beyond anyone's control.

    With virtually no trust between Washington and Tehran, mediators who appear increasingly exhausted, and a dialogue conducted primarily through military strikes, the risk of further escalation is now higher than the prospects for de-escalation. That is unlikely to change unless one side makes a meaningful concession, and there is little evidence that Tehran is prepared to do so.

    ...

    Unless something significant changes soon, this conflict is on a trajectory toward a far more dangerous phase, one that may become increasingly difficult for either side to contain.

    https://x.com/citrinowicz/status/2078597273601106294

    Congress could stop it any time they like
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 73,329

    OT (Kind of)

    I heard for the first time this morning that Burnham is talking about loosening the grip of the whips, reducing their powers. Apologies if this aspect of his vision has already been discussed but just to say that, as I have advocated for this for years, I am pleased at least to see it is something being discussed seriously rather than just remaining a fringe idea.

    I don't believe it frankly.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,704
    Scott_xP said:

    Whilst we've all been distracted by football, the US-Iran war is escalating:


    Danny (Dennis) Citrinowicz ,داني سيترينوفيتش
    @citrinowicz

    The greatest challenge now is no longer military pressure, it's escalation management. It is becoming increasingly clear that events are beginning to slip beyond anyone's control.

    With virtually no trust between Washington and Tehran, mediators who appear increasingly exhausted, and a dialogue conducted primarily through military strikes, the risk of further escalation is now higher than the prospects for de-escalation. That is unlikely to change unless one side makes a meaningful concession, and there is little evidence that Tehran is prepared to do so.

    ...

    Unless something significant changes soon, this conflict is on a trajectory toward a far more dangerous phase, one that may become increasingly difficult for either side to contain.

    https://x.com/citrinowicz/status/2078597273601106294

    Congress could stop it any time they like
    Trump would just ignore them.

    On the current trajectory We’re fucked. Prepare for what’s coming.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,259

    OT (Kind of)

    I heard for the first time this morning that Burnham is talking about loosening the grip of the whips, reducing their powers. Apologies if this aspect of his vision has already been discussed but just to say that, as I have advocated for this for years, I am pleased at least to see it is something being discussed seriously rather than just remaining a fringe idea.

    It may be a good idea, and certainly affordable with a 200-ish majority to cushion small rebellions. But what are the practicalities? Presumably MPs will still need to be told which amendments to vote for, and when. We cannot rely on MPs spending all their time in the Chamber, or even understanding the legalisms in which bills are drafted. But anything that ends the stupidity of removing the whip from MPs for voting the wrong way just a fortnight before it becomes the right way is to be welcomed.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,832

    From a betting point of view, there is also the possibility that Burnham calls a snap election, in which case the answer is of course yes, he will be Prime Minister at the time.

    However, assuming there is no early election, I think it plausible the bloom will come off Burnham's rose before summer 2029, but not because of Truss's forecast financial crisis. Rather, I cannot see the special sauce of Manchesterism. An integrated bus system follows London; the redevelopment miracle is just Burnham funnelling George Osborne's grants to a single developer, Renaker. And at the first sign of difficulty, Burnham abandoned affordable homes and the clean air zone.

    At best, it all feels inconsequential. We don't know Burnham's plans in detail but already there are reports of push-back against folding DSIT if Britain is serious about AI and IT, and his flagship Number 10 in the north has raised questions around the practicality of our leaders commuting between London and Manchester. (Will there need to be a new not-Royal train? It's a long old drive, and as Rishi found out, helicopters, while practical, are not uncontroversial.)

    Is there more to Burnham than a human Starmer? There does seem to be the same technocratic conviction that the truth is out there and we just need to gather all the parties together and thrash things out over beer and sandwiches. Is it enough for three years in Downing Street? I'm not betting on it.

    I did mention that in the header.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,604
    Scott_xP said:

    Whilst we've all been distracted by football, the US-Iran war is escalating:


    Danny (Dennis) Citrinowicz ,داني سيترينوفيتش
    @citrinowicz

    The greatest challenge now is no longer military pressure, it's escalation management. It is becoming increasingly clear that events are beginning to slip beyond anyone's control.

    With virtually no trust between Washington and Tehran, mediators who appear increasingly exhausted, and a dialogue conducted primarily through military strikes, the risk of further escalation is now higher than the prospects for de-escalation. That is unlikely to change unless one side makes a meaningful concession, and there is little evidence that Tehran is prepared to do so.

    ...

    Unless something significant changes soon, this conflict is on a trajectory toward a far more dangerous phase, one that may become increasingly difficult for either side to contain.

    https://x.com/citrinowicz/status/2078597273601106294

    Congress could stop it any time they like
    Neither of them want to stop it though.

    The Republicans are happy to avoid the discussion, and the Democrats prefer to see high ‘gas’ prices in the run up to the mid-terms.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,365

    Whilst we've all been distracted by football, the US-Iran war is escalating:


    Danny (Dennis) Citrinowicz ,داني سيترينوفيتش
    @citrinowicz

    The greatest challenge now is no longer military pressure, it's escalation management. It is becoming increasingly clear that events are beginning to slip beyond anyone's control.

    With virtually no trust between Washington and Tehran, mediators who appear increasingly exhausted, and a dialogue conducted primarily through military strikes, the risk of further escalation is now higher than the prospects for de-escalation. That is unlikely to change unless one side makes a meaningful concession, and there is little evidence that Tehran is prepared to do so.

    ...

    Unless something significant changes soon, this conflict is on a trajectory toward a far more dangerous phase, one that may become increasingly difficult for either side to contain.

    https://x.com/citrinowicz/status/2078597273601106294

    DEFCON 1 if Iran hits the ME desalination plants
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 20,018
    edited July 19
    stodge said:

    Why do you do this to me? Every single time -oh, let's start a new thread because Stodge is on. Why?

    Anyway, this from the previous thread:

    I was musing on a comment from @Richard_Tyndall saying he was in favour of free speech.

    Nothing wrong with that in theory but of course speech is like tea, coffee or social care - it's a commodity. You can have as much as you want or are willing to pay for.

    If you have time and money, you can have all the speech you want. If you are very wealthy, you can hire people to do the speaking for you, advance your arguments and if you are wealthier still, you can own the platforms on which speech occurs so you can regulate who can say what and shut down those who disagree with you.

    Speech therefore isn't "free" - it's expensive though the cost of speech has fallen in recent times in some respects. It's easier to be able to have speech and have your say - all you basically need is a device connected to the Internet - whereas in former times you had to take your chance at Speakers' Corner and that could be a bearpit (as can forums like this).

    The other side is the impact of your speech - let's be honest, this forum might have some reach but not much whereas an article on X or perhaps the Daily Mail has more likelihood of being more widely read so those who control the speech on well-read sites have a lot of speech they can throw around.

    The truth is very many voices aren't heard - there are older people who don't have Internet connections and for whom a world increasingly dominated by online and app-based activity is isolating. There are people who don't have the time to speak and there are doubtless a myriad of other reasons.

    We won't have free speech until and unless everyone has an equal opportunity to express their view - we have a thing called elections which does that pretty well in truth - and all views (within the law to a point though the current legal status is unsatisfactory) can be heard equally.

    Forcing the Daily Mail to say something nice about Labour might be considered a tad coercive - it's a thought. Much though I would like to see all media contain a diversity and plurality of opinion, this can't be ordained by central Government diktat.

    You can't force speech to be free any more than you can force people to be tolerant. You can be intolerant towards intolerance but you have to accept people have a right to be intolerant within the law.

    Freedoms are precious. Free speech as a principle is a great thing.

    But are there any circumstances where your speech can hurt? Should there be consequences for you if they do? Should you be prevented from making speech that might hurt? Who gets to decide if there is legitimate hurt and what the remedy/prevention needs to be?

    These aren't straightforward questions. For example John Stuart Mill's answers are roughly: (a) can cause hurt; (b) will be consequences; (c) absolutely no limit on making speech; (d) will be sorted out through public opinion. Mill is widely misunderstood. I have a lot of respect for his logic but I'm not sure he's right on (b) and (d) in thinking the truth will out. Most of the time the truth doesn't out.

    (Realise this is a different point from the one you are making, which I agree with. I also wanted to comment on what is free speech?)
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,836
    edited July 19
    stodge said:

    Why do you do this to me? Every single time -oh, let's start a new thread because Stodge is on. Why?

    Anyway, this from the previous thread:

    I was musing on a comment from @Richard_Tyndall saying he was in favour of free speech.

    Nothing wrong with that in theory but of course speech is like tea, coffee or social care - it's a commodity. You can have as much as you want or are willing to pay for.

    If you have time and money, you can have all the speech you want. If you are very wealthy, you can hire people to do the speaking for you, advance your arguments and if you are wealthier still, you can own the platforms on which speech occurs so you can regulate who can say what and shut down those who disagree with you.

    Speech therefore isn't "free" - it's expensive though the cost of speech has fallen in recent times in some respects. It's easier to be able to have speech and have your say - all you basically need is a device connected to the Internet - whereas in former times you had to take your chance at Speakers' Corner and that could be a bearpit (as can forums like this).

    The other side is the impact of your speech - let's be honest, this forum might have some reach but not much whereas an article on X or perhaps the Daily Mail has more likelihood of being more widely read so those who control the speech on well-read sites have a lot of speech they can throw around.

    The truth is very many voices aren't heard - there are older people who don't have Internet connections and for whom a world increasingly dominated by online and app-based activity is isolating. There are people who don't have the time to speak and there are doubtless a myriad of other reasons.

    We won't have free speech until and unless everyone has an equal opportunity to express their view - we have a thing called elections which does that pretty well in truth - and all views (within the law to a point though the current legal status is unsatisfactory) can be heard equally.

    Forcing the Daily Mail to say something nice about Labour might be considered a tad coercive - it's a thought. Much though I would like to see all media contain a diversity and plurality of opinion, this can't be ordained by central Government diktat.

    You can't force speech to be free any more than you can force people to be tolerant. You can be intolerant towards intolerance but you have to accept people have a right to be intolerant within the law.

    Needless to say I disagree (and good morning of course ;) )

    This is not about some over-arching, all encompassing, right to be heard. That is both impractical and unwarranted.

    It is simply about the right to say what you want, to openly speak your mind, without fear of prosecution except under very specific, very limited situations (direct incitement to violence and endangerment)

    Indeed the wealthy and those with access to media or well paid spokesmen already had that right. They have the ability to ensure they are heard without ever risking prosecution. It is the unrepresented and common people who have lacked that for so long and who now have it through the internet. They are the exact reason why we should fight harder for freedom of speech. Because they can now be heard and it is way too easy for those who don't want those voices to be heard to use spurious laws and regulation to stop them.

    Note that those being prosecuted are not the wealthy and the well connected. It is the normal person, a housewife, a retired policeman or an Aberdeen college worker. It is the voices and the messages that those in power would much rather were never heard. I may not agree with anything they are saying but it is vital for all of us that they have the right to say what they want, even if some of us hope that they will be ignored.

    So I think your argument is spurious. What matters is the right to say what you want without fear of prosecution, whether that is in a pub, on the internet or at Speaker's Corner. Taking away that right won't stop people thinking those things and it will only result in you having a false sense of security and then being surprised when those thoughts and opinions turn into sudden, violent action.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,723
    Sandpit said:

    Neither of them want to stop it though.

    The Republicans are happy to avoid the discussion, and the Democrats prefer to see high ‘gas’ prices in the run up to the mid-terms.

    Yes. For now.

    My point remains, endless escalation is only inevitable as long as Congress decides to let it.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,836

    OT (Kind of)

    I heard for the first time this morning that Burnham is talking about loosening the grip of the whips, reducing their powers. Apologies if this aspect of his vision has already been discussed but just to say that, as I have advocated for this for years, I am pleased at least to see it is something being discussed seriously rather than just remaining a fringe idea.

    It may be a good idea, and certainly affordable with a 200-ish majority to cushion small rebellions. But what are the practicalities? Presumably MPs will still need to be told which amendments to vote for, and when. We cannot rely on MPs spending all their time in the Chamber, or even understanding the legalisms in which bills are drafted. But anything that ends the stupidity of removing the whip from MPs for voting the wrong way just a fortnight before it becomes the right way is to be welcomed.
    Whips as sources of information and organisation I can fully agree with. Whips as enforcers using bribery or threats is something that should have gone long ago (indeed should never have started)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 35,735

    stodge said:

    Why do you do this to me? Every single time -oh, let's start a new thread because Stodge is on. Why?

    Anyway, this from the previous thread:

    I was musing on a comment from @Richard_Tyndall saying he was in favour of free speech.

    Nothing wrong with that in theory but of course speech is like tea, coffee or social care - it's a commodity. You can have as much as you want or are willing to pay for.

    If you have time and money, you can have all the speech you want. If you are very wealthy, you can hire people to do the speaking for you, advance your arguments and if you are wealthier still, you can own the platforms on which speech occurs so you can regulate who can say what and shut down those who disagree with you.

    Speech therefore isn't "free" - it's expensive though the cost of speech has fallen in recent times in some respects. It's easier to be able to have speech and have your say - all you basically need is a device connected to the Internet - whereas in former times you had to take your chance at Speakers' Corner and that could be a bearpit (as can forums like this).

    The other side is the impact of your speech - let's be honest, this forum might have some reach but not much whereas an article on X or perhaps the Daily Mail has more likelihood of being more widely read so those who control the speech on well-read sites have a lot of speech they can throw around.

    The truth is very many voices aren't heard - there are older people who don't have Internet connections and for whom a world increasingly dominated by online and app-based activity is isolating. There are people who don't have the time to speak and there are doubtless a myriad of other reasons.

    We won't have free speech until and unless everyone has an equal opportunity to express their view - we have a thing called elections which does that pretty well in truth - and all views (within the law to a point though the current legal status is unsatisfactory) can be heard equally.

    Forcing the Daily Mail to say something nice about Labour might be considered a tad coercive - it's a thought. Much though I would like to see all media contain a diversity and plurality of opinion, this can't be ordained by central Government diktat.

    You can't force speech to be free any more than you can force people to be tolerant. You can be intolerant towards intolerance but you have to accept people have a right to be intolerant within the law.

    Needless to say I disagree (and good moring of course ;) )

    This is not about some over-arching, all encompassing, right to be heard. That is both impractical and unwarranted.

    It is simply about the right to say what you want, to openly speak your mind, without fear of prosecution except under very specific, very limited situations (direct incitement to violence and endangerment)

    Indeed the wealthy and those with access to media or well paid spokesmen already had that right. They have the ability to ensure they are heard without ever risking prosecution. It is the unrepresented and common people who have lacked that for so long and who now have it through the internet. They are the exact reason why we should fight harder for freedom of speech. Because they can now be heard and it is way too easy for those who don't want those voices to be heard to use spurious laws and regulation to stop them.

    Note that those being prosecuted are not the wealthy and the well connected. It is the normal person, a housewife, a retired policeman or an Aberdeen college worker. It is the voices and the messages that those in power would much rather were never heard. I may not agree with anything they are saying but it is vital for all of us that they have the right to say what they want, even if some of us hope that they will be ignored.

    So I think your argument is spurious. What matters is the right to say what you want without fear of prosecution, whether that is in a pub, on the internet or at Speaker's Corner. Taking away that right won't stop people thinking those things and it will only result in you having a false sense of security and then being surprised when those thoughts and opinions turn into sudden, violent action.

    Well said, though it really shouldn't need saying, I mean for goodness sake.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 64,120
    Well, my gast is flabbered. Digital ID to be scrapped. Following on from actually using North Sea resources, two good moves, it seems, from Burnham.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y08z25q8eo

    Anyway, I need to be off.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 34,059
    Scott_xP said:

    @levparnas

    Andrew and Tristan Tate spent the days before their arrest partying in Washington, D.C., as guests of Paolo Zampolli — Donald Trump’s U.S. Special Envoy for Global Partnerships and a longtime friend of Trump and Melania.

    Zampolli is the former modeling executive who says he brought Melania to the United States and introduced her to Donald Trump. His name has also surfaced repeatedly in reporting surrounding Jeffrey Epstein’s modeling-world connections.

    And there’s more.

    https://x.com/levparnas/status/2078640416233238817?s=20

    Indeed there's more.

    Zampolli previously acknowledged contacting a senior ICE official about Amanda Ungaro, the mother of his child, during a bitter custody dispute. She was later taken into immigration custody and deported, although Zampolli denies that he asked ICE to detain her.

    That one had blowback because La Ungaro was willing to speak about the early days decades back when she was around Melania in her early days in the USA.

    That is a little inconvenient.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 20,018

    OT (Kind of)

    I heard for the first time this morning that Burnham is talking about loosening the grip of the whips, reducing their powers. Apologies if this aspect of his vision has already been discussed but just to say that, as I have advocated for this for years, I am pleased at least to see it is something being discussed seriously rather than just remaining a fringe idea.

    I don't believe it frankly.
    I can believe it up to a point. Burnham was more collegiate in Manchester than Starmer was in London. He also cares more about what people think of him. Ultimately it's about how to get your party's MPs behind your policies. Burnham probably sees the Whip's Office more as an HR department and not so much as an NCO corps.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,699
    Scott_xP said:

    @levparnas

    Andrew and Tristan Tate spent the days before their arrest partying in Washington, D.C., as guests of Paolo Zampolli — Donald Trump’s U.S. Special Envoy for Global Partnerships and a longtime friend of Trump and Melania.

    Zampolli is the former modeling executive who says he brought Melania to the United States and introduced her to Donald Trump. His name has also surfaced repeatedly in reporting surrounding Jeffrey Epstein’s modeling-world connections.

    And there’s more.

    https://x.com/levparnas/status/2078640416233238817?s=20

    Pimpers' paradise.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 73,329
    FF43 said:

    OT (Kind of)

    I heard for the first time this morning that Burnham is talking about loosening the grip of the whips, reducing their powers. Apologies if this aspect of his vision has already been discussed but just to say that, as I have advocated for this for years, I am pleased at least to see it is something being discussed seriously rather than just remaining a fringe idea.

    I don't believe it frankly.
    I can believe it up to a point. Burnham was more collegiate in Manchester than Starmer was in London. He also cares more about what people think of him. Ultimately it's about how to get your party's MPs behind your policies. Burnham probably sees the Whip's Office more as an HR department and not so much as an NCO corps.
    Until he has to get a watertightly close vote through the Commons and then all that will be out of the window.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 2,121

    stodge said:

    Why do you do this to me? Every single time -oh, let's start a new thread because Stodge is on. Why?

    Anyway, this from the previous thread:

    I was musing on a comment from @Richard_Tyndall saying he was in favour of free speech.

    Nothing wrong with that in theory but of course speech is like tea, coffee or social care - it's a commodity. You can have as much as you want or are willing to pay for.

    If you have time and money, you can have all the speech you want. If you are very wealthy, you can hire people to do the speaking for you, advance your arguments and if you are wealthier still, you can own the platforms on which speech occurs so you can regulate who can say what and shut down those who disagree with you.

    Speech therefore isn't "free" - it's expensive though the cost of speech has fallen in recent times in some respects. It's easier to be able to have speech and have your say - all you basically need is a device connected to the Internet - whereas in former times you had to take your chance at Speakers' Corner and that could be a bearpit (as can forums like this).

    The other side is the impact of your speech - let's be honest, this forum might have some reach but not much whereas an article on X or perhaps the Daily Mail has more likelihood of being more widely read so those who control the speech on well-read sites have a lot of speech they can throw around.

    The truth is very many voices aren't heard - there are older people who don't have Internet connections and for whom a world increasingly dominated by online and app-based activity is isolating. There are people who don't have the time to speak and there are doubtless a myriad of other reasons.

    We won't have free speech until and unless everyone has an equal opportunity to express their view - we have a thing called elections which does that pretty well in truth - and all views (within the law to a point though the current legal status is unsatisfactory) can be heard equally.

    Forcing the Daily Mail to say something nice about Labour might be considered a tad coercive - it's a thought. Much though I would like to see all media contain a diversity and plurality of opinion, this can't be ordained by central Government diktat.

    You can't force speech to be free any more than you can force people to be tolerant. You can be intolerant towards intolerance but you have to accept people have a right to be intolerant within the law.

    Needless to say I disagree (and good moring of course ;) )

    This is not about some over-arching, all encompassing, right to be heard. That is both impractical and unwarranted.

    It is simply about the right to say what you want, to openly speak your mind, without fear of prosecution except under very specific, very limited situations (direct incitement to violence and endangerment)

    Indeed the wealthy and those with access to media or well paid spokesmen already had that right. They have the ability to ensure they are heard without ever risking prosecution. It is the unrepresented and common people who have lacked that for so long and who now have it through the internet. They are the exact reason why we should fight harder for freedom of speech. Because they can now be heard and it is way too easy for those who don't want those voices to be heard to use spurious laws and regulation to stop them.

    Note that those being prosecuted are not the wealthy and the well connected. It is the normal person, a housewife, a retired policeman or an Aberdeen college worker. It is the voices and the messages that those in power would much rather were never heard. I may not agree with anything they are saying but it is vital for all of us that they have the right to say what they want, even if some of us hope that they will be ignored.

    So I think your argument is spurious. What matters is the right to say what you want without fear of prosecution, whether that is in a pub, on the internet or at Speaker's Corner. Taking away that right won't stop people thinking those things and it will only result in you having a false sense of security and then being surprised when those thoughts and opinions turn into sudden, violent action.

    Well said, though it really shouldn't need saying, I mean for goodness sake.
    I mostly agree with Richard, but the issue is when some speech is amplified and some is drowned out.

    That could be Musk tweaking the algorithms, or an overly cautious media refusing to contemplate some of the potential negatives around COVID vaccines for fear of putting people off getting vaccinated. There are many other examples.

    Those of us committed to free speech should be equally committed to judicious regulation of those who have their hands on the amplifier controls. Getting this regulation right in the face of partisanship from all sides is difficult, but essential for democracy in my view.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 20,018

    stodge said:

    Why do you do this to me? Every single time -oh, let's start a new thread because Stodge is on. Why?

    Anyway, this from the previous thread:

    I was musing on a comment from @Richard_Tyndall saying he was in favour of free speech.

    Nothing wrong with that in theory but of course speech is like tea, coffee or social care - it's a commodity. You can have as much as you want or are willing to pay for.

    If you have time and money, you can have all the speech you want. If you are very wealthy, you can hire people to do the speaking for you, advance your arguments and if you are wealthier still, you can own the platforms on which speech occurs so you can regulate who can say what and shut down those who disagree with you.

    Speech therefore isn't "free" - it's expensive though the cost of speech has fallen in recent times in some respects. It's easier to be able to have speech and have your say - all you basically need is a device connected to the Internet - whereas in former times you had to take your chance at Speakers' Corner and that could be a bearpit (as can forums like this).

    The other side is the impact of your speech - let's be honest, this forum might have some reach but not much whereas an article on X or perhaps the Daily Mail has more likelihood of being more widely read so those who control the speech on well-read sites have a lot of speech they can throw around.

    The truth is very many voices aren't heard - there are older people who don't have Internet connections and for whom a world increasingly dominated by online and app-based activity is isolating. There are people who don't have the time to speak and there are doubtless a myriad of other reasons.

    We won't have free speech until and unless everyone has an equal opportunity to express their view - we have a thing called elections which does that pretty well in truth - and all views (within the law to a point though the current legal status is unsatisfactory) can be heard equally.

    Forcing the Daily Mail to say something nice about Labour might be considered a tad coercive - it's a thought. Much though I would like to see all media contain a diversity and plurality of opinion, this can't be ordained by central Government diktat.

    You can't force speech to be free any more than you can force people to be tolerant. You can be intolerant towards intolerance but you have to accept people have a right to be intolerant within the law.

    Needless to say I disagree (and good morning of course ;) )

    This is not about some over-arching, all encompassing, right to be heard. That is both impractical and unwarranted.

    It is simply about the right to say what you want, to openly speak your mind, without fear of prosecution except under very specific, very limited situations (direct incitement to violence and endangerment)

    Indeed the wealthy and those with access to media or well paid spokesmen already had that right. They have the ability to ensure they are heard without ever risking prosecution. It is the unrepresented and common people who have lacked that for so long and who now have it through the internet. They are the exact reason why we should fight harder for freedom of speech. Because they can now be heard and it is way too easy for those who don't want those voices to be heard to use spurious laws and regulation to stop them.

    Note that those being prosecuted are not the wealthy and the well connected. It is the normal person, a housewife, a retired policeman or an Aberdeen college worker. It is the voices and the messages that those in power would much rather were never heard. I may not agree with anything they are saying but it is vital for all of us that they have the right to say what they want, even if some of us hope that they will be ignored.

    So I think your argument is spurious. What matters is the right to say what you want without fear of prosecution, whether that is in a pub, on the internet or at Speaker's Corner. Taking away that right won't stop people thinking those things and it will only result in you having a false sense of security and then being surprised when those thoughts and opinions turn into sudden, violent action.

    I agree with Stodge through observation that the speech of the wealthy and well connected is a lot free-er than those who are not so advantaged. I think it matters.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 34,059

    From a betting point of view, there is also the possibility that Burnham calls a snap election, in which case the answer is of course yes, he will be Prime Minister at the time.

    However, assuming there is no early election, I think it plausible the bloom will come off Burnham's rose before summer 2029, but not because of Truss's forecast financial crisis. Rather, I cannot see the special sauce of Manchesterism. An integrated bus system follows London; the redevelopment miracle is just Burnham funnelling George Osborne's grants to a single developer, Renaker. And at the first sign of difficulty, Burnham abandoned affordable homes and the clean air zone.

    At best, it all feels inconsequential. We don't know Burnham's plans in detail but already there are reports of push-back against folding DSIT if Britain is serious about AI and IT, and his flagship Number 10 in the north has raised questions around the practicality of our leaders commuting between London and Manchester. (Will there need to be a new not-Royal train? It's a long old drive, and as Rishi found out, helicopters, while practical, are not uncontroversial.)

    Is there more to Burnham than a human Starmer? There does seem to be the same technocratic conviction that the truth is out there and we just need to gather all the parties together and thrash things out over beer and sandwiches. Is it enough for three years in Downing Street? I'm not betting on it.

    I do not see a snap election. I think The Theresa May Experience is too recent.

    Rather I see a strategy crafted to avoid calls for an election, or mainly the possibility not being acknowledged.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 73,329
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Whilst we've all been distracted by football, the US-Iran war is escalating:


    Danny (Dennis) Citrinowicz ,داني سيترينوفيتش
    @citrinowicz

    The greatest challenge now is no longer military pressure, it's escalation management. It is becoming increasingly clear that events are beginning to slip beyond anyone's control.

    With virtually no trust between Washington and Tehran, mediators who appear increasingly exhausted, and a dialogue conducted primarily through military strikes, the risk of further escalation is now higher than the prospects for de-escalation. That is unlikely to change unless one side makes a meaningful concession, and there is little evidence that Tehran is prepared to do so.

    ...

    Unless something significant changes soon, this conflict is on a trajectory toward a far more dangerous phase, one that may become increasingly difficult for either side to contain.

    https://x.com/citrinowicz/status/2078597273601106294

    Congress could stop it any time they like
    Trump would just ignore them.

    On the current trajectory We’re fucked. Prepare for what’s coming.
    Yes. Brace.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,836
    FF43 said:

    stodge said:

    Why do you do this to me? Every single time -oh, let's start a new thread because Stodge is on. Why?

    Anyway, this from the previous thread:

    I was musing on a comment from @Richard_Tyndall saying he was in favour of free speech.

    Nothing wrong with that in theory but of course speech is like tea, coffee or social care - it's a commodity. You can have as much as you want or are willing to pay for.

    If you have time and money, you can have all the speech you want. If you are very wealthy, you can hire people to do the speaking for you, advance your arguments and if you are wealthier still, you can own the platforms on which speech occurs so you can regulate who can say what and shut down those who disagree with you.

    Speech therefore isn't "free" - it's expensive though the cost of speech has fallen in recent times in some respects. It's easier to be able to have speech and have your say - all you basically need is a device connected to the Internet - whereas in former times you had to take your chance at Speakers' Corner and that could be a bearpit (as can forums like this).

    The other side is the impact of your speech - let's be honest, this forum might have some reach but not much whereas an article on X or perhaps the Daily Mail has more likelihood of being more widely read so those who control the speech on well-read sites have a lot of speech they can throw around.

    The truth is very many voices aren't heard - there are older people who don't have Internet connections and for whom a world increasingly dominated by online and app-based activity is isolating. There are people who don't have the time to speak and there are doubtless a myriad of other reasons.

    We won't have free speech until and unless everyone has an equal opportunity to express their view - we have a thing called elections which does that pretty well in truth - and all views (within the law to a point though the current legal status is unsatisfactory) can be heard equally.

    Forcing the Daily Mail to say something nice about Labour might be considered a tad coercive - it's a thought. Much though I would like to see all media contain a diversity and plurality of opinion, this can't be ordained by central Government diktat.

    You can't force speech to be free any more than you can force people to be tolerant. You can be intolerant towards intolerance but you have to accept people have a right to be intolerant within the law.

    Needless to say I disagree (and good morning of course ;) )

    This is not about some over-arching, all encompassing, right to be heard. That is both impractical and unwarranted.

    It is simply about the right to say what you want, to openly speak your mind, without fear of prosecution except under very specific, very limited situations (direct incitement to violence and endangerment)

    Indeed the wealthy and those with access to media or well paid spokesmen already had that right. They have the ability to ensure they are heard without ever risking prosecution. It is the unrepresented and common people who have lacked that for so long and who now have it through the internet. They are the exact reason why we should fight harder for freedom of speech. Because they can now be heard and it is way too easy for those who don't want those voices to be heard to use spurious laws and regulation to stop them.

    Note that those being prosecuted are not the wealthy and the well connected. It is the normal person, a housewife, a retired policeman or an Aberdeen college worker. It is the voices and the messages that those in power would much rather were never heard. I may not agree with anything they are saying but it is vital for all of us that they have the right to say what they want, even if some of us hope that they will be ignored.

    So I think your argument is spurious. What matters is the right to say what you want without fear of prosecution, whether that is in a pub, on the internet or at Speaker's Corner. Taking away that right won't stop people thinking those things and it will only result in you having a false sense of security and then being surprised when those thoughts and opinions turn into sudden, violent action.

    I agree with Stodge through observation that the speech of the wealthy and well connected is a lot free-er than those who are not so advantaged. I think it matters.
    It used to. It now matters a hell of a lot less. Which is why the wealthy and well connected are sos interested in limiting that freedom.

    Personally I don't think it matters very much at all. It is like wealth redistribution. Maybe nice in principle but in practice not only impossible but generally counter productive.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,836
    maxh said:

    stodge said:

    Why do you do this to me? Every single time -oh, let's start a new thread because Stodge is on. Why?

    Anyway, this from the previous thread:

    I was musing on a comment from @Richard_Tyndall saying he was in favour of free speech.

    Nothing wrong with that in theory but of course speech is like tea, coffee or social care - it's a commodity. You can have as much as you want or are willing to pay for.

    If you have time and money, you can have all the speech you want. If you are very wealthy, you can hire people to do the speaking for you, advance your arguments and if you are wealthier still, you can own the platforms on which speech occurs so you can regulate who can say what and shut down those who disagree with you.

    Speech therefore isn't "free" - it's expensive though the cost of speech has fallen in recent times in some respects. It's easier to be able to have speech and have your say - all you basically need is a device connected to the Internet - whereas in former times you had to take your chance at Speakers' Corner and that could be a bearpit (as can forums like this).

    The other side is the impact of your speech - let's be honest, this forum might have some reach but not much whereas an article on X or perhaps the Daily Mail has more likelihood of being more widely read so those who control the speech on well-read sites have a lot of speech they can throw around.

    The truth is very many voices aren't heard - there are older people who don't have Internet connections and for whom a world increasingly dominated by online and app-based activity is isolating. There are people who don't have the time to speak and there are doubtless a myriad of other reasons.

    We won't have free speech until and unless everyone has an equal opportunity to express their view - we have a thing called elections which does that pretty well in truth - and all views (within the law to a point though the current legal status is unsatisfactory) can be heard equally.

    Forcing the Daily Mail to say something nice about Labour might be considered a tad coercive - it's a thought. Much though I would like to see all media contain a diversity and plurality of opinion, this can't be ordained by central Government diktat.

    You can't force speech to be free any more than you can force people to be tolerant. You can be intolerant towards intolerance but you have to accept people have a right to be intolerant within the law.

    Needless to say I disagree (and good moring of course ;) )

    This is not about some over-arching, all encompassing, right to be heard. That is both impractical and unwarranted.

    It is simply about the right to say what you want, to openly speak your mind, without fear of prosecution except under very specific, very limited situations (direct incitement to violence and endangerment)

    Indeed the wealthy and those with access to media or well paid spokesmen already had that right. They have the ability to ensure they are heard without ever risking prosecution. It is the unrepresented and common people who have lacked that for so long and who now have it through the internet. They are the exact reason why we should fight harder for freedom of speech. Because they can now be heard and it is way too easy for those who don't want those voices to be heard to use spurious laws and regulation to stop them.

    Note that those being prosecuted are not the wealthy and the well connected. It is the normal person, a housewife, a retired policeman or an Aberdeen college worker. It is the voices and the messages that those in power would much rather were never heard. I may not agree with anything they are saying but it is vital for all of us that they have the right to say what they want, even if some of us hope that they will be ignored.

    So I think your argument is spurious. What matters is the right to say what you want without fear of prosecution, whether that is in a pub, on the internet or at Speaker's Corner. Taking away that right won't stop people thinking those things and it will only result in you having a false sense of security and then being surprised when those thoughts and opinions turn into sudden, violent action.

    Well said, though it really shouldn't need saying, I mean for goodness sake.
    I mostly agree with Richard, but the issue is when some speech is amplified and some is drowned out.

    That could be Musk tweaking the algorithms, or an overly cautious media refusing to contemplate some of the potential negatives around COVID vaccines for fear of putting people off getting vaccinated. There are many other examples.

    Those of us committed to free speech should be equally committed to judicious regulation of those who have their hands on the amplifier controls. Getting this regulation right in the face of partisanship from all sides is difficult, but essential for democracy in my view.
    I think this is another matter entirely, away from freedom of speech and I am generally in agreement with you.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 34,059
    One which I cannot judge yet is the change of attitude of the various factions in Trump's regime to the UK post our change of PM.

    Are we going to have JD Vance perambulating around Europe making more speeches, and if so what will be in them?
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 17,585

    maxh said:

    stodge said:

    Why do you do this to me? Every single time -oh, let's start a new thread because Stodge is on. Why?

    Anyway, this from the previous thread:

    I was musing on a comment from @Richard_Tyndall saying he was in favour of free speech.

    Nothing wrong with that in theory but of course speech is like tea, coffee or social care - it's a commodity. You can have as much as you want or are willing to pay for.

    If you have time and money, you can have all the speech you want. If you are very wealthy, you can hire people to do the speaking for you, advance your arguments and if you are wealthier still, you can own the platforms on which speech occurs so you can regulate who can say what and shut down those who disagree with you.

    Speech therefore isn't "free" - it's expensive though the cost of speech has fallen in recent times in some respects. It's easier to be able to have speech and have your say - all you basically need is a device connected to the Internet - whereas in former times you had to take your chance at Speakers' Corner and that could be a bearpit (as can forums like this).

    The other side is the impact of your speech - let's be honest, this forum might have some reach but not much whereas an article on X or perhaps the Daily Mail has more likelihood of being more widely read so those who control the speech on well-read sites have a lot of speech they can throw around.

    The truth is very many voices aren't heard - there are older people who don't have Internet connections and for whom a world increasingly dominated by online and app-based activity is isolating. There are people who don't have the time to speak and there are doubtless a myriad of other reasons.

    We won't have free speech until and unless everyone has an equal opportunity to express their view - we have a thing called elections which does that pretty well in truth - and all views (within the law to a point though the current legal status is unsatisfactory) can be heard equally.

    Forcing the Daily Mail to say something nice about Labour might be considered a tad coercive - it's a thought. Much though I would like to see all media contain a diversity and plurality of opinion, this can't be ordained by central Government diktat.

    You can't force speech to be free any more than you can force people to be tolerant. You can be intolerant towards intolerance but you have to accept people have a right to be intolerant within the law.

    Needless to say I disagree (and good moring of course ;) )

    This is not about some over-arching, all encompassing, right to be heard. That is both impractical and unwarranted.

    It is simply about the right to say what you want, to openly speak your mind, without fear of prosecution except under very specific, very limited situations (direct incitement to violence and endangerment)

    Indeed the wealthy and those with access to media or well paid spokesmen already had that right. They have the ability to ensure they are heard without ever risking prosecution. It is the unrepresented and common people who have lacked that for so long and who now have it through the internet. They are the exact reason why we should fight harder for freedom of speech. Because they can now be heard and it is way too easy for those who don't want those voices to be heard to use spurious laws and regulation to stop them.

    Note that those being prosecuted are not the wealthy and the well connected. It is the normal person, a housewife, a retired policeman or an Aberdeen college worker. It is the voices and the messages that those in power would much rather were never heard. I may not agree with anything they are saying but it is vital for all of us that they have the right to say what they want, even if some of us hope that they will be ignored.

    So I think your argument is spurious. What matters is the right to say what you want without fear of prosecution, whether that is in a pub, on the internet or at Speaker's Corner. Taking away that right won't stop people thinking those things and it will only result in you having a false sense of security and then being surprised when those thoughts and opinions turn into sudden, violent action.

    Well said, though it really shouldn't need saying, I mean for goodness sake.
    I mostly agree with Richard, but the issue is when some speech is amplified and some is drowned out.

    That could be Musk tweaking the algorithms, or an overly cautious media refusing to contemplate some of the potential negatives around COVID vaccines for fear of putting people off getting vaccinated. There are many other examples.

    Those of us committed to free speech should be equally committed to judicious regulation of those who have their hands on the amplifier controls. Getting this regulation right in the face of partisanship from all sides is difficult, but essential for democracy in my view.
    I think this is another matter entirely, away from freedom of speech and I am generally in agreement with you.
    A related topic is consumer and producer protection, and the tensions between these. Both involve some sort of inhibition of “free speech”.

    We have advertising standards to ensure businesses can’t misrepresent their products or promise what they can’t deliver. That’s a form of limitation on free speech. Without it the consumer is at the mercy of charlatans. It used to work pretty well, but the online ads I see these days from drop shippers (notably for miraculous “air conditioning” that defies the laws of physics) suggest we’re not enforcing as much as we used to.

    We have trademark and trademark protections, and PDOs, to protect producers from imitation. In theory another inhibition of free speech. Those have strengthened over time. In some cases to slightly ludicrous levels: I was recently admonished by food standards for using “protected names” on my vineyard website (in my case, referring to the Cote D’Or and Montagne de Reims in a blog - because apparently I could be accused of trying to liken my wine to Burgundy or Champagne).

    I’m generally of the view that regulating what’s published in order to protect the consumer is more important than doing so to protect the producer. The latter can lead to rackets. The strongest argument for better regulation of social media like X is consumer protection. Users should have some confidence what they’re reading isn’t AI slop or - as per my recent exposure to “Argentinian” Malvinas posters - paid trolling that purports to be something it’s not.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 17,585
    MattW said:

    One which I cannot judge yet is the change of attitude of the various factions in Trump's regime to the UK post our change of PM.

    Are we going to have JD Vance perambulating around Europe making more speeches, and if so what will be in them?

    The sooner we start ignoring them the better. Their trolling is becoming so endemic it’s losing its shock factor.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 22,167

    OT (Kind of)

    I heard for the first time this morning that Burnham is talking about loosening the grip of the whips, reducing their powers. Apologies if this aspect of his vision has already been discussed but just to say that, as I have advocated for this for years, I am pleased at least to see it is something being discussed seriously rather than just remaining a fringe idea.

    It may be a good idea, and certainly affordable with a 200-ish majority to cushion small rebellions. But what are the practicalities? Presumably MPs will still need to be told which amendments to vote for, and when. We cannot rely on MPs spending all their time in the Chamber, or even understanding the legalisms in which bills are drafted. But anything that ends the stupidity of removing the whip from MPs for voting the wrong way just a fortnight before it becomes the right way is to be welcomed.
    I agree. As an MP I was absolutely up for having the virtues of proposals that I didn't have time to study explained to me, and I gave the benefit of any doubt. Occasionally I wasn't convinced and voted the "wrong" way. That shouldn't really have been career-destroying, and it generally wasn't, but the possibility that it might be was deliberately left in the air.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 4,533

    FF43 said:

    OT (Kind of)

    I heard for the first time this morning that Burnham is talking about loosening the grip of the whips, reducing their powers. Apologies if this aspect of his vision has already been discussed but just to say that, as I have advocated for this for years, I am pleased at least to see it is something being discussed seriously rather than just remaining a fringe idea.

    I don't believe it frankly.
    I can believe it up to a point. Burnham was more collegiate in Manchester than Starmer was in London. He also cares more about what people think of him. Ultimately it's about how to get your party's MPs behind your policies. Burnham probably sees the Whip's Office more as an HR department and not so much as an NCO corps.
    Until he has to get a watertightly close vote through the Commons and then all that will be out of the window.
    If its that close with a majority this large, then the Labour Party will be in several other sorts of pain.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,610
    stodge said:

    Why do you do this to me? Every single time -oh, let's start a new thread because Stodge is on. Why?

    Anyway, this from the previous thread:

    I was musing on a comment from @Richard_Tyndall saying he was in favour of free speech.

    Nothing wrong with that in theory but of course speech is like tea, coffee or social care - it's a commodity. You can have as much as you want or are willing to pay for.

    If you have time and money, you can have all the speech you want. If you are very wealthy, you can hire people to do the speaking for you, advance your arguments and if you are wealthier still, you can own the platforms on which speech occurs so you can regulate who can say what and shut down those who disagree with you.

    Speech therefore isn't "free" - it's expensive though the cost of speech has fallen in recent times in some respects. It's easier to be able to have speech and have your say - all you basically need is a device connected to the Internet - whereas in former times you had to take your chance at Speakers' Corner and that could be a bearpit (as can forums like this).

    The other side is the impact of your speech - let's be honest, this forum might have some reach but not much whereas an article on X or perhaps the Daily Mail has more likelihood of being more widely read so those who control the speech on well-read sites have a lot of speech they can throw around.

    The truth is very many voices aren't heard - there are older people who don't have Internet connections and for whom a world increasingly dominated by online and app-based activity is isolating. There are people who don't have the time to speak and there are doubtless a myriad of other reasons.

    We won't have free speech until and unless everyone has an equal opportunity to express their view - we have a thing called elections which does that pretty well in truth - and all views (within the law to a point though the current legal status is unsatisfactory) can be heard equally.

    Forcing the Daily Mail to say something nice about Labour might be considered a tad coercive - it's a thought. Much though I would like to see all media contain a diversity and plurality of opinion, this can't be ordained by central Government diktat.

    You can't force speech to be free any more than you can force people to be tolerant. You can be intolerant towards intolerance but you have to accept people have a right to be intolerant within the law.

    I’m in favour but also in favour of free listening. Lots of issues are due to the dialogue of the deaf.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 46,776
    Scott_xP said:

    Whilst we've all been distracted by football, the US-Iran war is escalating:


    Danny (Dennis) Citrinowicz ,داني سيترينوفيتش
    @citrinowicz

    The greatest challenge now is no longer military pressure, it's escalation management. It is becoming increasingly clear that events are beginning to slip beyond anyone's control.

    With virtually no trust between Washington and Tehran, mediators who appear increasingly exhausted, and a dialogue conducted primarily through military strikes, the risk of further escalation is now higher than the prospects for de-escalation. That is unlikely to change unless one side makes a meaningful concession, and there is little evidence that Tehran is prepared to do so.

    ...

    Unless something significant changes soon, this conflict is on a trajectory toward a far more dangerous phase, one that may become increasingly difficult for either side to contain.

    https://x.com/citrinowicz/status/2078597273601106294

    Congress could stop it any time they like
    Not enough backbones in there to do anything
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 73,329
    Lucy Powell: we've had an economic model that puts "private interests above every day interests"

    What on earth does this even mean?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,679
    Good morning everyone.

    Might be somewhat tangential to the Free Speech discussion, but where do we stand, in that connection, on the 34 people who have put their names forward as potential MP for Clacton. One respects their right to do so, of course, but is it making a mockery of the electoral process? (Or just even more that one candidate, on NF, was already making it?)
    Should candidates be required to lodge their deposit in cash when submitting nomination papers?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,679

    Lucy Powell: we've had an economic model that puts "private interests above every day interests"

    What on earth does this even mean?

    Thatcherism.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 37,484
    What does the lettuce say?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,259

    Good morning everyone.

    Might be somewhat tangential to the Free Speech discussion, but where do we stand, in that connection, on the 34 people who have put their names forward as potential MP for Clacton. One respects their right to do so, of course, but is it making a mockery of the electoral process? (Or just even more that one candidate, on NF, was already making it?)
    Should candidates be required to lodge their deposit in cash when submitting nomination papers?

    Yes it is but we do not want to go down the path of Iran or Russia in allowing only pre-approved candidates to stand. If the downside is a bunch of clowns with main character syndrome dressing up for the campaign, I can live with that.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,836

    Good morning everyone.

    Might be somewhat tangential to the Free Speech discussion, but where do we stand, in that connection, on the 34 people who have put their names forward as potential MP for Clacton. One respects their right to do so, of course, but is it making a mockery of the electoral process? (Or just even more that one candidate, on NF, was already making it?)
    Should candidates be required to lodge their deposit in cash when submitting nomination papers?

    I thought you had to make your deposit at nomination stage anyway?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,604

    Lucy Powell: we've had an economic model that puts "private interests above every day interests"

    What on earth does this even mean?

    Socialism!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 37,484

    Good morning everyone.

    Might be somewhat tangential to the Free Speech discussion, but where do we stand, in that connection, on the 34 people who have put their names forward as potential MP for Clacton. One respects their right to do so, of course, but is it making a mockery of the electoral process? (Or just even more that one candidate, on NF, was already making it?)
    Should candidates be required to lodge their deposit in cash when submitting nomination papers?

    Is there enough actual cash circulating?

    "For a candidate’s nomination to be valid, the sum of £500 must be deposited with the (Acting) Returning Officer by the deadline for nominations, by 4pm, 19 working days before the poll. The deposit can be made using:1
    - cash (British pounds only)
    - a UK banker’s draft
    The (Acting) Returning Officer may also accept a deposit made by a building society cheque, a debit or credit card or an electronic funds transfer."


    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/guidance-candidates-and-agents-uk-parliamentary-elections-great-britain/nominations/submitting-your-nomination-papers/deposit
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,882

    Lucy Powell: we've had an economic model that puts "private interests above every day interests"

    What on earth does this even mean?

    It means nothing, but it makes the activists feel good about themselves - and that's the main thing, right?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 37,484
    Is Truss still a Conservative? I've lost track.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 35,735

    maxh said:

    stodge said:

    Why do you do this to me? Every single time -oh, let's start a new thread because Stodge is on. Why?

    Anyway, this from the previous thread:

    I was musing on a comment from @Richard_Tyndall saying he was in favour of free speech.

    Nothing wrong with that in theory but of course speech is like tea, coffee or social care - it's a commodity. You can have as much as you want or are willing to pay for.

    If you have time and money, you can have all the speech you want. If you are very wealthy, you can hire people to do the speaking for you, advance your arguments and if you are wealthier still, you can own the platforms on which speech occurs so you can regulate who can say what and shut down those who disagree with you.

    Speech therefore isn't "free" - it's expensive though the cost of speech has fallen in recent times in some respects. It's easier to be able to have speech and have your say - all you basically need is a device connected to the Internet - whereas in former times you had to take your chance at Speakers' Corner and that could be a bearpit (as can forums like this).

    The other side is the impact of your speech - let's be honest, this forum might have some reach but not much whereas an article on X or perhaps the Daily Mail has more likelihood of being more widely read so those who control the speech on well-read sites have a lot of speech they can throw around.

    The truth is very many voices aren't heard - there are older people who don't have Internet connections and for whom a world increasingly dominated by online and app-based activity is isolating. There are people who don't have the time to speak and there are doubtless a myriad of other reasons.

    We won't have free speech until and unless everyone has an equal opportunity to express their view - we have a thing called elections which does that pretty well in truth - and all views (within the law to a point though the current legal status is unsatisfactory) can be heard equally.

    Forcing the Daily Mail to say something nice about Labour might be considered a tad coercive - it's a thought. Much though I would like to see all media contain a diversity and plurality of opinion, this can't be ordained by central Government diktat.

    You can't force speech to be free any more than you can force people to be tolerant. You can be intolerant towards intolerance but you have to accept people have a right to be intolerant within the law.

    Needless to say I disagree (and good moring of course ;) )

    This is not about some over-arching, all encompassing, right to be heard. That is both impractical and unwarranted.

    It is simply about the right to say what you want, to openly speak your mind, without fear of prosecution except under very specific, very limited situations (direct incitement to violence and endangerment)

    Indeed the wealthy and those with access to media or well paid spokesmen already had that right. They have the ability to ensure they are heard without ever risking prosecution. It is the unrepresented and common people who have lacked that for so long and who now have it through the internet. They are the exact reason why we should fight harder for freedom of speech. Because they can now be heard and it is way too easy for those who don't want those voices to be heard to use spurious laws and regulation to stop them.

    Note that those being prosecuted are not the wealthy and the well connected. It is the normal person, a housewife, a retired policeman or an Aberdeen college worker. It is the voices and the messages that those in power would much rather were never heard. I may not agree with anything they are saying but it is vital for all of us that they have the right to say what they want, even if some of us hope that they will be ignored.

    So I think your argument is spurious. What matters is the right to say what you want without fear of prosecution, whether that is in a pub, on the internet or at Speaker's Corner. Taking away that right won't stop people thinking those things and it will only result in you having a false sense of security and then being surprised when those thoughts and opinions turn into sudden, violent action.

    Well said, though it really shouldn't need saying, I mean for goodness sake.
    I mostly agree with Richard, but the issue is when some speech is amplified and some is drowned out.

    That could be Musk tweaking the algorithms, or an overly cautious media refusing to contemplate some of the potential negatives around COVID vaccines for fear of putting people off getting vaccinated. There are many other examples.

    Those of us committed to free speech should be equally committed to judicious regulation of those who have their hands on the amplifier controls. Getting this regulation right in the face of partisanship from all sides is difficult, but essential for democracy in my view.
    I think this is another matter entirely, away from freedom of speech and I am generally in agreement with you.
    I recognise that algorithms can distort public discourse, and it will be interesting to see what can be done, but it must be on the basis of the fundamental algorithms. It cannot be illegal to fill people with exaggerated fear about immigration or vaccines if it is still OK to fill them with exaggerated fear about State-endorsed cause celebres like Net Zero or racism in the police force. That isn't looking after the public, it is propaganda.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,547

    Lucy Powell: we've had an economic model that puts "private interests above every day interests"

    What on earth does this even mean?

    Vacuous nonsense !
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,846
    No. It would take a ginormous crisis for Burnham now not to get a GE. Indeed his taking over makes "2029 or later" worth looking at as a potential lay currently at just 1.97 on BFE
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,226
    On topic, this assumes he is in earnest and follows through on each (all) of his pledges, as Liz tried to do, in which case it would trigger a crisis.

    But, I doubt he is as dogmatically sincere as she was.
  • StarryStarry Posts: 241

    Is Truss still a Conservative? I've lost track.

    She's the only Conservative in the room as I remember. To a hammer, everything is a nail.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,679

    Good morning everyone.

    Might be somewhat tangential to the Free Speech discussion, but where do we stand, in that connection, on the 34 people who have put their names forward as potential MP for Clacton. One respects their right to do so, of course, but is it making a mockery of the electoral process? (Or just even more that one candidate, on NF, was already making it?)
    Should candidates be required to lodge their deposit in cash when submitting nomination papers?

    Is there enough actual cash circulating?

    "For a candidate’s nomination to be valid, the sum of £500 must be deposited with the (Acting) Returning Officer by the deadline for nominations, by 4pm, 19 working days before the poll. The deposit can be made using:1
    - cash (British pounds only)
    - a UK banker’s draft
    The (Acting) Returning Officer may also accept a deposit made by a building society cheque, a debit or credit card or an electronic funds transfer."


    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/guidance-candidates-and-agents-uk-parliamentary-elections-great-britain/nominations/submitting-your-nomination-papers/deposit
    It's a long time since I've actually been a Parliamentary agent, (last time 1979) so I must have had a memory slip, as I've no recollection of actually doing that.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 37,484
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Whilst we've all been distracted by football, the US-Iran war is escalating:


    Danny (Dennis) Citrinowicz ,داني سيترينوفيتش
    @citrinowicz

    The greatest challenge now is no longer military pressure, it's escalation management. It is becoming increasingly clear that events are beginning to slip beyond anyone's control.

    With virtually no trust between Washington and Tehran, mediators who appear increasingly exhausted, and a dialogue conducted primarily through military strikes, the risk of further escalation is now higher than the prospects for de-escalation. That is unlikely to change unless one side makes a meaningful concession, and there is little evidence that Tehran is prepared to do so.

    ...

    Unless something significant changes soon, this conflict is on a trajectory toward a far more dangerous phase, one that may become increasingly difficult for either side to contain.

    https://x.com/citrinowicz/status/2078597273601106294

    Congress could stop it any time they like
    Trump would just ignore them.

    On the current trajectory We’re fucked. Prepare for what’s coming.
    I might if I knew what's coming. But none of us do.
  • StarryStarry Posts: 241

    maxh said:

    stodge said:

    Why do you do this to me? Every single time -oh, let's start a new thread because Stodge is on. Why?

    Anyway, this from the previous thread:

    I was musing on a comment from @Richard_Tyndall saying he was in favour of free speech.

    Nothing wrong with that in theory but of course speech is like tea, coffee or social care - it's a commodity. You can have as much as you want or are willing to pay for.

    If you have time and money, you can have all the speech you want. If you are very wealthy, you can hire people to do the speaking for you, advance your arguments and if you are wealthier still, you can own the platforms on which speech occurs so you can regulate who can say what and shut down those who disagree with you.

    Speech therefore isn't "free" - it's expensive though the cost of speech has fallen in recent times in some respects. It's easier to be able to have speech and have your say - all you basically need is a device connected to the Internet - whereas in former times you had to take your chance at Speakers' Corner and that could be a bearpit (as can forums like this).

    The other side is the impact of your speech - let's be honest, this forum might have some reach but not much whereas an article on X or perhaps the Daily Mail has more likelihood of being more widely read so those who control the speech on well-read sites have a lot of speech they can throw around.

    The truth is very many voices aren't heard - there are older people who don't have Internet connections and for whom a world increasingly dominated by online and app-based activity is isolating. There are people who don't have the time to speak and there are doubtless a myriad of other reasons.

    We won't have free speech until and unless everyone has an equal opportunity to express their view - we have a thing called elections which does that pretty well in truth - and all views (within the law to a point though the current legal status is unsatisfactory) can be heard equally.

    Forcing the Daily Mail to say something nice about Labour might be considered a tad coercive - it's a thought. Much though I would like to see all media contain a diversity and plurality of opinion, this can't be ordained by central Government diktat.

    You can't force speech to be free any more than you can force people to be tolerant. You can be intolerant towards intolerance but you have to accept people have a right to be intolerant within the law.

    Needless to say I disagree (and good moring of course ;) )

    This is not about some over-arching, all encompassing, right to be heard. That is both impractical and unwarranted.

    It is simply about the right to say what you want, to openly speak your mind, without fear of prosecution except under very specific, very limited situations (direct incitement to violence and endangerment)

    Indeed the wealthy and those with access to media or well paid spokesmen already had that right. They have the ability to ensure they are heard without ever risking prosecution. It is the unrepresented and common people who have lacked that for so long and who now have it through the internet. They are the exact reason why we should fight harder for freedom of speech. Because they can now be heard and it is way too easy for those who don't want those voices to be heard to use spurious laws and regulation to stop them.

    Note that those being prosecuted are not the wealthy and the well connected. It is the normal person, a housewife, a retired policeman or an Aberdeen college worker. It is the voices and the messages that those in power would much rather were never heard. I may not agree with anything they are saying but it is vital for all of us that they have the right to say what they want, even if some of us hope that they will be ignored.

    So I think your argument is spurious. What matters is the right to say what you want without fear of prosecution, whether that is in a pub, on the internet or at Speaker's Corner. Taking away that right won't stop people thinking those things and it will only result in you having a false sense of security and then being surprised when those thoughts and opinions turn into sudden, violent action.

    Well said, though it really shouldn't need saying, I mean for goodness sake.
    I mostly agree with Richard, but the issue is when some speech is amplified and some is drowned out.

    That could be Musk tweaking the algorithms, or an overly cautious media refusing to contemplate some of the potential negatives around COVID vaccines for fear of putting people off getting vaccinated. There are many other examples.

    Those of us committed to free speech should be equally committed to judicious regulation of those who have their hands on the amplifier controls. Getting this regulation right in the face of partisanship from all sides is difficult, but essential for democracy in my view.
    I think this is another matter entirely, away from freedom of speech and I am generally in agreement with you.
    I recognise that algorithms can distort public discourse, and it will be interesting to see what can be done, but it must be on the basis of the fundamental algorithms. It cannot be illegal to fill people with exaggerated fear about immigration or vaccines if it is still OK to fill them with exaggerated fear about State-endorsed cause celebres like Net Zero or racism in the police force. That isn't looking after the public, it is propaganda.
    How about non-exaggerated fear backed up with evidence from leading authorities in their field versus a bloke on X backed up with billions in self-interest and state actors?

    There is a difference.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,723
    @chadbourn.bsky.social

    Jordan has evacuated King Hussein International Airport and Aqaba seaport due to a security threat, the US Embassy says.

    @mattvanswol

    I'm confused.

    The USA has the most powerful military on Earth. We've bombed the HELL out of Iran for 4 months. Trump says their Air Force, Navy, and nearly all of their missile capabilities are destroyed.

    ...so how is Iran still capable of hitting US bases right now???

    @JamieBonkiewicz

    He’s so fucking close to getting it. Bless his heart.

    https://x.com/JamieBonkiewicz/status/2078680233129963770?s=20
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 8,429

    Good morning everyone.

    Might be somewhat tangential to the Free Speech discussion, but where do we stand, in that connection, on the 34 people who have put their names forward as potential MP for Clacton. One respects their right to do so, of course, but is it making a mockery of the electoral process? (Or just even more that one candidate, on NF, was already making it?)
    Should candidates be required to lodge their deposit in cash when submitting nomination papers?

    What is wrong with making a mockery of the electoral process?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 35,735
    On topic, I think Liz is wrong. However, I'd have said the same at the beginning ofmf Starmer's era.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,679

    Good morning everyone.

    Might be somewhat tangential to the Free Speech discussion, but where do we stand, in that connection, on the 34 people who have put their names forward as potential MP for Clacton. One respects their right to do so, of course, but is it making a mockery of the electoral process? (Or just even more that one candidate, on NF, was already making it?)
    Should candidates be required to lodge their deposit in cash when submitting nomination papers?

    Yes it is but we do not want to go down the path of Iran or Russia in allowing only pre-approved candidates to stand. If the downside is a bunch of clowns with main character syndrome dressing up for the campaign, I can live with that.
    I'm very glad I'm not a Clacton voter; imagine looking down that list and deciding. I'm equally glad I'm not an election worker in the constituency; the count is going to be very messy.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,723

    Good morning everyone.

    Might be somewhat tangential to the Free Speech discussion, but where do we stand, in that connection, on the 34 people who have put their names forward as potential MP for Clacton. One respects their right to do so, of course, but is it making a mockery of the electoral process? (Or just even more that one candidate, on NF, was already making it?)
    Should candidates be required to lodge their deposit in cash when submitting nomination papers?

    Yes it is but we do not want to go down the path of Iran or Russia in allowing only pre-approved candidates to stand. If the downside is a bunch of clowns with main character syndrome dressing up for the campaign, I can live with that.
    I'm very glad I'm not a Clacton voter; imagine looking down that list and deciding. I'm equally glad I'm not an election worker in the constituency; the count is going to be very messy.
    Binface's latest ad notes that this is his 8th election, and there is a tradition in Clacton of winning at the 8th attempt...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,679
    Scott_xP said:

    Good morning everyone.

    Might be somewhat tangential to the Free Speech discussion, but where do we stand, in that connection, on the 34 people who have put their names forward as potential MP for Clacton. One respects their right to do so, of course, but is it making a mockery of the electoral process? (Or just even more that one candidate, on NF, was already making it?)
    Should candidates be required to lodge their deposit in cash when submitting nomination papers?

    Yes it is but we do not want to go down the path of Iran or Russia in allowing only pre-approved candidates to stand. If the downside is a bunch of clowns with main character syndrome dressing up for the campaign, I can live with that.
    I'm very glad I'm not a Clacton voter; imagine looking down that list and deciding. I'm equally glad I'm not an election worker in the constituency; the count is going to be very messy.
    Binface's latest ad notes that this is his 8th election, and there is a tradition in Clacton of winning at the 8th attempt...
    Do we have anyone who lives in the constituency posting here? It would be good to have from news from the ground.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,604

    Good morning everyone.

    Might be somewhat tangential to the Free Speech discussion, but where do we stand, in that connection, on the 34 people who have put their names forward as potential MP for Clacton. One respects their right to do so, of course, but is it making a mockery of the electoral process? (Or just even more that one candidate, on NF, was already making it?)
    Should candidates be required to lodge their deposit in cash when submitting nomination papers?

    I thought you had to make your deposit at nomination stage anyway?
    Yes, so with 34 people nominated Tendring council has £17k in the bank towards the costs of the election, with probably only Farage and Binface getting their £500 back.

    Formal notice of election: https://legacy.tendringdc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/council/elections & voting/2026/Aug13/UKPGE - NOP SOP SOPN.pdf
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 35,735
    Starry said:

    maxh said:

    stodge said:

    Why do you do this to me? Every single time -oh, let's start a new thread because Stodge is on. Why?

    Anyway, this from the previous thread:

    I was musing on a comment from @Richard_Tyndall saying he was in favour of free speech.

    Nothing wrong with that in theory but of course speech is like tea, coffee or social care - it's a commodity. You can have as much as you want or are willing to pay for.

    If you have time and money, you can have all the speech you want. If you are very wealthy, you can hire people to do the speaking for you, advance your arguments and if you are wealthier still, you can own the platforms on which speech occurs so you can regulate who can say what and shut down those who disagree with you.

    Speech therefore isn't "free" - it's expensive though the cost of speech has fallen in recent times in some respects. It's easier to be able to have speech and have your say - all you basically need is a device connected to the Internet - whereas in former times you had to take your chance at Speakers' Corner and that could be a bearpit (as can forums like this).

    The other side is the impact of your speech - let's be honest, this forum might have some reach but not much whereas an article on X or perhaps the Daily Mail has more likelihood of being more widely read so those who control the speech on well-read sites have a lot of speech they can throw around.

    The truth is very many voices aren't heard - there are older people who don't have Internet connections and for whom a world increasingly dominated by online and app-based activity is isolating. There are people who don't have the time to speak and there are doubtless a myriad of other reasons.

    We won't have free speech until and unless everyone has an equal opportunity to express their view - we have a thing called elections which does that pretty well in truth - and all views (within the law to a point though the current legal status is unsatisfactory) can be heard equally.

    Forcing the Daily Mail to say something nice about Labour might be considered a tad coercive - it's a thought. Much though I would like to see all media contain a diversity and plurality of opinion, this can't be ordained by central Government diktat.

    You can't force speech to be free any more than you can force people to be tolerant. You can be intolerant towards intolerance but you have to accept people have a right to be intolerant within the law.

    Needless to say I disagree (and good moring of course ;) )

    This is not about some over-arching, all encompassing, right to be heard. That is both impractical and unwarranted.

    It is simply about the right to say what you want, to openly speak your mind, without fear of prosecution except under very specific, very limited situations (direct incitement to violence and endangerment)

    Indeed the wealthy and those with access to media or well paid spokesmen already had that right. They have the ability to ensure they are heard without ever risking prosecution. It is the unrepresented and common people who have lacked that for so long and who now have it through the internet. They are the exact reason why we should fight harder for freedom of speech. Because they can now be heard and it is way too easy for those who don't want those voices to be heard to use spurious laws and regulation to stop them.

    Note that those being prosecuted are not the wealthy and the well connected. It is the normal person, a housewife, a retired policeman or an Aberdeen college worker. It is the voices and the messages that those in power would much rather were never heard. I may not agree with anything they are saying but it is vital for all of us that they have the right to say what they want, even if some of us hope that they will be ignored.

    So I think your argument is spurious. What matters is the right to say what you want without fear of prosecution, whether that is in a pub, on the internet or at Speaker's Corner. Taking away that right won't stop people thinking those things and it will only result in you having a false sense of security and then being surprised when those thoughts and opinions turn into sudden, violent action.

    Well said, though it really shouldn't need saying, I mean for goodness sake.
    I mostly agree with Richard, but the issue is when some speech is amplified and some is drowned out.

    That could be Musk tweaking the algorithms, or an overly cautious media refusing to contemplate some of the potential negatives around COVID vaccines for fear of putting people off getting vaccinated. There are many other examples.

    Those of us committed to free speech should be equally committed to judicious regulation of those who have their hands on the amplifier controls. Getting this regulation right in the face of partisanship from all sides is difficult, but essential for democracy in my view.
    I think this is another matter entirely, away from freedom of speech and I am generally in agreement with you.
    I recognise that algorithms can distort public discourse, and it will be interesting to see what can be done, but it must be on the basis of the fundamental algorithms. It cannot be illegal to fill people with exaggerated fear about immigration or vaccines if it is still OK to fill them with exaggerated fear about State-endorsed cause celebres like Net Zero or racism in the police force. That isn't looking after the public, it is propaganda.
    How about non-exaggerated fear backed up with evidence from leading authorities in their field versus a bloke on X backed up with billions in self-interest and state actors?

    There is a difference.
    Yes, the difference is that one is state-endorsed and one isn't. There was never this clamour to 'do something' when Facebook suppressed the lab leak theory, or even when Twitter showed Isis videos. Your post tells me that this (at least for some) is nothing to do with the distortion and rage caused by algorithms, and everything to do with controlling the narrative.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,679
    Sandpit said:

    Good morning everyone.

    Might be somewhat tangential to the Free Speech discussion, but where do we stand, in that connection, on the 34 people who have put their names forward as potential MP for Clacton. One respects their right to do so, of course, but is it making a mockery of the electoral process? (Or just even more that one candidate, on NF, was already making it?)
    Should candidates be required to lodge their deposit in cash when submitting nomination papers?

    I thought you had to make your deposit at nomination stage anyway?
    Yes, so with 34 people nominated Tendring council has £17k in the bank towards the costs of the election, with probably only Farage and Binface getting their £500 back.

    Formal notice of election: https://legacy.tendringdc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/council/elections & voting/2026/Aug13/UKPGE - NOP SOP SOPN.pdf
    It's a ill wind....., or something.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,477
    MelonB said:

    maxh said:

    stodge said:

    Why do you do this to me? Every single time -oh, let's start a new thread because Stodge is on. Why?

    Anyway, this from the previous thread:

    I was musing on a comment from @Richard_Tyndall saying he was in favour of free speech.

    Nothing wrong with that in theory but of course speech is like tea, coffee or social care - it's a commodity. You can have as much as you want or are willing to pay for.

    If you have time and money, you can have all the speech you want. If you are very wealthy, you can hire people to do the speaking for you, advance your arguments and if you are wealthier still, you can own the platforms on which speech occurs so you can regulate who can say what and shut down those who disagree with you.

    Speech therefore isn't "free" - it's expensive though the cost of speech has fallen in recent times in some respects. It's easier to be able to have speech and have your say - all you basically need is a device connected to the Internet - whereas in former times you had to take your chance at Speakers' Corner and that could be a bearpit (as can forums like this).

    The other side is the impact of your speech - let's be honest, this forum might have some reach but not much whereas an article on X or perhaps the Daily Mail has more likelihood of being more widely read so those who control the speech on well-read sites have a lot of speech they can throw around.

    The truth is very many voices aren't heard - there are older people who don't have Internet connections and for whom a world increasingly dominated by online and app-based activity is isolating. There are people who don't have the time to speak and there are doubtless a myriad of other reasons.

    We won't have free speech until and unless everyone has an equal opportunity to express their view - we have a thing called elections which does that pretty well in truth - and all views (within the law to a point though the current legal status is unsatisfactory) can be heard equally.

    Forcing the Daily Mail to say something nice about Labour might be considered a tad coercive - it's a thought. Much though I would like to see all media contain a diversity and plurality of opinion, this can't be ordained by central Government diktat.

    You can't force speech to be free any more than you can force people to be tolerant. You can be intolerant towards intolerance but you have to accept people have a right to be intolerant within the law.

    Needless to say I disagree (and good moring of course ;) )

    This is not about some over-arching, all encompassing, right to be heard. That is both impractical and unwarranted.

    It is simply about the right to say what you want, to openly speak your mind, without fear of prosecution except under very specific, very limited situations (direct incitement to violence and endangerment)

    Indeed the wealthy and those with access to media or well paid spokesmen already had that right. They have the ability to ensure they are heard without ever risking prosecution. It is the unrepresented and common people who have lacked that for so long and who now have it through the internet. They are the exact reason why we should fight harder for freedom of speech. Because they can now be heard and it is way too easy for those who don't want those voices to be heard to use spurious laws and regulation to stop them.

    Note that those being prosecuted are not the wealthy and the well connected. It is the normal person, a housewife, a retired policeman or an Aberdeen college worker. It is the voices and the messages that those in power would much rather were never heard. I may not agree with anything they are saying but it is vital for all of us that they have the right to say what they want, even if some of us hope that they will be ignored.

    So I think your argument is spurious. What matters is the right to say what you want without fear of prosecution, whether that is in a pub, on the internet or at Speaker's Corner. Taking away that right won't stop people thinking those things and it will only result in you having a false sense of security and then being surprised when those thoughts and opinions turn into sudden, violent action.

    Well said, though it really shouldn't need saying, I mean for goodness sake.
    I mostly agree with Richard, but the issue is when some speech is amplified and some is drowned out.

    That could be Musk tweaking the algorithms, or an overly cautious media refusing to contemplate some of the potential negatives around COVID vaccines for fear of putting people off getting vaccinated. There are many other examples.

    Those of us committed to free speech should be equally committed to judicious regulation of those who have their hands on the amplifier controls. Getting this regulation right in the face of partisanship from all sides is difficult, but essential for democracy in my view.
    I think this is another matter entirely, away from freedom of speech and I am generally in agreement with you.
    A related topic is consumer and producer protection, and the tensions between these. Both involve some sort of inhibition of “free speech”.

    We have advertising standards to ensure businesses can’t misrepresent their products or promise what they can’t deliver. That’s a form of limitation on free speech. Without it the consumer is at the mercy of charlatans. It used to work pretty well, but the online ads I see these days from drop shippers (notably for miraculous “air conditioning” that defies the laws of physics) suggest we’re not enforcing as much as we used to.

    We have trademark and trademark protections, and PDOs, to protect producers from imitation. In theory another inhibition of free speech. Those have strengthened over time. In some cases to slightly ludicrous levels: I was recently admonished by food standards for using “protected names” on my vineyard website (in my case, referring to the Cote D’Or and Montagne de Reims in a blog - because apparently I could be accused of trying to liken my wine to Burgundy or Champagne).

    I’m generally of the view that regulating what’s published in order to protect the consumer is more important than doing so to protect the producer. The latter can lead to rackets. The strongest argument for better regulation of social media like X is consumer protection. Users should have some confidence what they’re reading isn’t AI slop or - as per my recent exposure to “Argentinian” Malvinas posters - paid trolling that purports to be something it’s not.
    All of which brings to mind the old Libertarian crack - “You’re right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins”.

    The mediation of rights between individuals within society has been at the heart of law and philosophy since ancient times.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,455
    Sandpit said:

    Good morning everyone.

    Might be somewhat tangential to the Free Speech discussion, but where do we stand, in that connection, on the 34 people who have put their names forward as potential MP for Clacton. One respects their right to do so, of course, but is it making a mockery of the electoral process? (Or just even more that one candidate, on NF, was already making it?)
    Should candidates be required to lodge their deposit in cash when submitting nomination papers?

    I thought you had to make your deposit at nomination stage anyway?
    Yes, so with 34 people nominated Tendring council has £17k in the bank towards the costs of the election, with probably only Farage and Binface getting their £500 back.

    Formal notice of election: https://legacy.tendringdc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/council/elections & voting/2026/Aug13/UKPGE - NOP SOP SOPN.pdf
    Includes three Official Monster Raving Loony Party candidates and two candidates residing abroad. (The MRLP candidates are also 3 of the 4 who chose not to conceal their full postal address. Coincidence, or Loony party policy?)
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,541

    OT (Kind of)

    I heard for the first time this morning that Burnham is talking about loosening the grip of the whips, reducing their powers. Apologies if this aspect of his vision has already been discussed but just to say that, as I have advocated for this for years, I am pleased at least to see it is something being discussed seriously rather than just remaining a fringe idea.

    The proof of the pudding will be when Labour MPs vote against his policies.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 2,121

    maxh said:

    stodge said:

    Why do you do this to me? Every single time -oh, let's start a new thread because Stodge is on. Why?

    Anyway, this from the previous thread:

    I was musing on a comment from @Richard_Tyndall saying he was in favour of free speech.

    Nothing wrong with that in theory but of course speech is like tea, coffee or social care - it's a commodity. You can have as much as you want or are willing to pay for.

    If you have time and money, you can have all the speech you want. If you are very wealthy, you can hire people to do the speaking for you, advance your arguments and if you are wealthier still, you can own the platforms on which speech occurs so you can regulate who can say what and shut down those who disagree with you.

    Speech therefore isn't "free" - it's expensive though the cost of speech has fallen in recent times in some respects. It's easier to be able to have speech and have your say - all you basically need is a device connected to the Internet - whereas in former times you had to take your chance at Speakers' Corner and that could be a bearpit (as can forums like this).

    The other side is the impact of your speech - let's be honest, this forum might have some reach but not much whereas an article on X or perhaps the Daily Mail has more likelihood of being more widely read so those who control the speech on well-read sites have a lot of speech they can throw around.

    The truth is very many voices aren't heard - there are older people who don't have Internet connections and for whom a world increasingly dominated by online and app-based activity is isolating. There are people who don't have the time to speak and there are doubtless a myriad of other reasons.

    We won't have free speech until and unless everyone has an equal opportunity to express their view - we have a thing called elections which does that pretty well in truth - and all views (within the law to a point though the current legal status is unsatisfactory) can be heard equally.

    Forcing the Daily Mail to say something nice about Labour might be considered a tad coercive - it's a thought. Much though I would like to see all media contain a diversity and plurality of opinion, this can't be ordained by central Government diktat.

    You can't force speech to be free any more than you can force people to be tolerant. You can be intolerant towards intolerance but you have to accept people have a right to be intolerant within the law.

    Needless to say I disagree (and good moring of course ;) )

    This is not about some over-arching, all encompassing, right to be heard. That is both impractical and unwarranted.

    It is simply about the right to say what you want, to openly speak your mind, without fear of prosecution except under very specific, very limited situations (direct incitement to violence and endangerment)

    Indeed the wealthy and those with access to media or well paid spokesmen already had that right. They have the ability to ensure they are heard without ever risking prosecution. It is the unrepresented and common people who have lacked that for so long and who now have it through the internet. They are the exact reason why we should fight harder for freedom of speech. Because they can now be heard and it is way too easy for those who don't want those voices to be heard to use spurious laws and regulation to stop them.

    Note that those being prosecuted are not the wealthy and the well connected. It is the normal person, a housewife, a retired policeman or an Aberdeen college worker. It is the voices and the messages that those in power would much rather were never heard. I may not agree with anything they are saying but it is vital for all of us that they have the right to say what they want, even if some of us hope that they will be ignored.

    So I think your argument is spurious. What matters is the right to say what you want without fear of prosecution, whether that is in a pub, on the internet or at Speaker's Corner. Taking away that right won't stop people thinking those things and it will only result in you having a false sense of security and then being surprised when those thoughts and opinions turn into sudden, violent action.

    Well said, though it really shouldn't need saying, I mean for goodness sake.
    I mostly agree with Richard, but the issue is when some speech is amplified and some is drowned out.

    That could be Musk tweaking the algorithms, or an overly cautious media refusing to contemplate some of the potential negatives around COVID vaccines for fear of putting people off getting vaccinated. There are many other examples.

    Those of us committed to free speech should be equally committed to judicious regulation of those who have their hands on the amplifier controls. Getting this regulation right in the face of partisanship from all sides is difficult, but essential for democracy in my view.
    I think this is another matter entirely, away from freedom of speech and I am generally in agreement with you.
    I recognise that algorithms can distort public discourse, and it will be interesting to see what can be done, but it must be on the basis of the fundamental algorithms. It cannot be illegal to fill people with exaggerated fear about immigration or vaccines if it is still OK to fill them with exaggerated fear about State-endorsed cause celebres like Net Zero or racism in the police force. That isn't looking after the public, it is propaganda.
    Yes, that's my point. You and I would strongly differ on what constitutes exaggerated fear but that is precisely why neither of us should be anywhere near the back end of such algorithms (unless as one voice amongst many).

    I would maintain that some form of democratic control (which probably means government control, for all it's myriad flaws) is better than corporate or oligarchic control.

    But I have a great deal of respect for those who are deeply skeptical of state-endorsed cause celebres, indeed i am so myself.

    The solution that is found (as it eventually will be found) will be a messy compromise that will probably satisfy neither of us, but will be better than what we have now.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,595

    Lucy Powell: we've had an economic model that puts "private interests above every day interests"

    What on earth does this even mean?


    I have 'every day interests'
    You have 'your interests'
    Those capitalists have 'private interests'

    The fact the capitalism pays for everything is clearly lost in the grey matter of Lucy Powell....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,477

    Lucy Powell: we've had an economic model that puts "private interests above every day interests"

    What on earth does this even mean?

    It means nothing, but it makes the activists feel good about themselves - and that's the main thing, right?

    Lucy Powell: we've had an economic model that puts "private interests above every day interests"

    What on earth does this even mean?

    It means nothing, but it makes the activists feel good about themselves - and that's the main thing, right?
    It’s code

    Private interests = Banksters/Hedge Funds/People who look a bit Furrin/etc

    Everyday interests = people we pretend to like. Bit like animals at the zoo - they are ok if behind glass. Not too close to Us.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,595
    I see more silly EU rules are costing individuals time yet again.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg5gg6n9x3o

    Can heartily recommend Montenegro. They stamped our passports without even looking at us there!!
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,594
    Mortimer said:

    I see more silly EU rules are costing individuals time yet again.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg5gg6n9x3o

    Can heartily recommend Montenegro. They stamped our passports without even looking at us there!!

    Are you posh George?
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 8,429
    Mortimer said:

    I see more silly EU rules are costing individuals time yet again.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg5gg6n9x3o

    Can heartily recommend Montenegro. They stamped our passports without even looking at us there!!

    Similarly was in and out of immigration in Serbia in minutes. And I was allowed to use the e-gates
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,594
    Mortimer said:

    Lucy Powell: we've had an economic model that puts "private interests above every day interests"

    What on earth does this even mean?


    I have 'every day interests'
    You have 'your interests'
    Those capitalists have 'private interests'

    The fact the capitalism pays for everything is clearly lost in the grey matter of Lucy Powell....
    Capitalism isn't the problem, it's the grifting and fraud that goes with it, eh Mortimer?

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,259
    OT after yesterday's fun and games, two movers for Sports Personality of the Year are Jude Bellingham and the new mile record holder, Josh Kerr, both now single figure prices, and for some reason Matt Weston (cast your mind back to the Winter Olympics).

    Without knowing who the BBC's sometimes willfully daft panel will nominate, especially from a team event like the World Cup, although I guess it is between Bellingham and Kane, I shan't be getting involved this far out on anyone near the front of the market. Rory McIlroy looks far too short though, now he is no longer a realistic contender in the Open golf where Tommy Fleetwood (33/1) got to within one stroke of the lead yesterday before falling back.
    https://www.oddschecker.com/awards/sports-personality-of-the-year/bbc-sports-personality-of-the-year/

    Which reminds me, the Commonwealth Games starts next week in Glasgow.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 48,241

    OT (Kind of)

    I heard for the first time this morning that Burnham is talking about loosening the grip of the whips, reducing their powers. Apologies if this aspect of his vision has already been discussed but just to say that, as I have advocated for this for years, I am pleased at least to see it is something being discussed seriously rather than just remaining a fringe idea.

    The proof of the pudding will be when Labour MPs vote against his policies.
    He may have to whip them to vote for reducing the power of whips.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 48,241

    On topic, I think Liz is wrong. However, I'd have said the same at the beginning ofmf Starmer's era.

    Golly, calling him a mf is a bit rude.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 35,735
    ...
    maxh said:

    maxh said:

    stodge said:

    Why do you do this to me? Every single time -oh, let's start a new thread because Stodge is on. Why?

    Anyway, this from the previous thread:

    I was musing on a comment from @Richard_Tyndall saying he was in favour of free speech.

    Nothing wrong with that in theory but of course speech is like tea, coffee or social care - it's a commodity. You can have as much as you want or are willing to pay for.

    If you have time and money, you can have all the speech you want. If you are very wealthy, you can hire people to do the speaking for you, advance your arguments and if you are wealthier still, you can own the platforms on which speech occurs so you can regulate who can say what and shut down those who disagree with you.

    Speech therefore isn't "free" - it's expensive though the cost of speech has fallen in recent times in some respects. It's easier to be able to have speech and have your say - all you basically need is a device connected to the Internet - whereas in former times you had to take your chance at Speakers' Corner and that could be a bearpit (as can forums like this).

    The other side is the impact of your speech - let's be honest, this forum might have some reach but not much whereas an article on X or perhaps the Daily Mail has more likelihood of being more widely read so those who control the speech on well-read sites have a lot of speech they can throw around.

    The truth is very many voices aren't heard - there are older people who don't have Internet connections and for whom a world increasingly dominated by online and app-based activity is isolating. There are people who don't have the time to speak and there are doubtless a myriad of other reasons.

    We won't have free speech until and unless everyone has an equal opportunity to express their view - we have a thing called elections which does that pretty well in truth - and all views (within the law to a point though the current legal status is unsatisfactory) can be heard equally.

    Forcing the Daily Mail to say something nice about Labour might be considered a tad coercive - it's a thought. Much though I would like to see all media contain a diversity and plurality of opinion, this can't be ordained by central Government diktat.

    You can't force speech to be free any more than you can force people to be tolerant. You can be intolerant towards intolerance but you have to accept people have a right to be intolerant within the law.

    Needless to say I disagree (and good moring of course ;) )

    This is not about some over-arching, all encompassing, right to be heard. That is both impractical and unwarranted.

    It is simply about the right to say what you want, to openly speak your mind, without fear of prosecution except under very specific, very limited situations (direct incitement to violence and endangerment)

    Indeed the wealthy and those with access to media or well paid spokesmen already had that right. They have the ability to ensure they are heard without ever risking prosecution. It is the unrepresented and common people who have lacked that for so long and who now have it through the internet. They are the exact reason why we should fight harder for freedom of speech. Because they can now be heard and it is way too easy for those who don't want those voices to be heard to use spurious laws and regulation to stop them.

    Note that those being prosecuted are not the wealthy and the well connected. It is the normal person, a housewife, a retired policeman or an Aberdeen college worker. It is the voices and the messages that those in power would much rather were never heard. I may not agree with anything they are saying but it is vital for all of us that they have the right to say what they want, even if some of us hope that they will be ignored.

    So I think your argument is spurious. What matters is the right to say what you want without fear of prosecution, whether that is in a pub, on the internet or at Speaker's Corner. Taking away that right won't stop people thinking those things and it will only result in you having a false sense of security and then being surprised when those thoughts and opinions turn into sudden, violent action.

    Well said, though it really shouldn't need saying, I mean for goodness sake.
    I mostly agree with Richard, but the issue is when some speech is amplified and some is drowned out.

    That could be Musk tweaking the algorithms, or an overly cautious media refusing to contemplate some of the potential negatives around COVID vaccines for fear of putting people off getting vaccinated. There are many other examples.

    Those of us committed to free speech should be equally committed to judicious regulation of those who have their hands on the amplifier controls. Getting this regulation right in the face of partisanship from all sides is difficult, but essential for democracy in my view.
    I think this is another matter entirely, away from freedom of speech and I am generally in agreement with you.
    I recognise that algorithms can distort public discourse, and it will be interesting to see what can be done, but it must be on the basis of the fundamental algorithms. It cannot be illegal to fill people with exaggerated fear about immigration or vaccines if it is still OK to fill them with exaggerated fear about State-endorsed cause celebres like Net Zero or racism in the police force. That isn't looking after the public, it is propaganda.
    Yes, that's my point. You and I would strongly differ on what constitutes exaggerated fear but that is precisely why neither of us should be anywhere near the back end of such algorithms (unless as one voice amongst many).

    I would maintain that some form of democratic control (which probably means government control, for all it's myriad flaws) is better than corporate or oligarchic control.

    But I have a great deal of respect for those who are deeply skeptical of state-endorsed cause celebres, indeed i am so myself.

    The solution that is found (as it eventually will be found) will be a messy compromise that will probably satisfy neither of us, but will be better than what we have now.
    I'm not sure we would differ. Social media algorithms in the current affairs space seem to depend on generating outrage, fear and loathing, to get more people to watch for longer, and gradually the content must become more alarmist and extreme to keep peoples' attention. It is this fundamental process that needs addressing. But if you read Star's post and suppose that the people introducing such measures think similarly, then it would be perfectly OK to generate outrage, fear and loathing on behalf of left wing and globalist pet projects - wealth tax, Net zero, dehumanising the right wing, identity politics etc. That's the same old left, same old tactics. They cannot win support for their mad shit in the public square, so they insist that opposing ideas must be silenced. I would rather the wild west with all its issues than that.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 35,735

    On topic, I think Liz is wrong. However, I'd have said the same at the beginning ofmf Starmer's era.

    Golly, calling him a mf is a bit rude.
    :D Fat fingers. I wouldn't insult anyone deliberately in so coarse a fashion.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,604
    edited July 19

    OT after yesterday's fun and games, two movers for Sports Personality of the Year are Jude Bellingham and the new mile record holder, Josh Kerr, both now single figure prices, and for some reason Matt Weston (cast your mind back to the Winter Olympics).

    Without knowing who the BBC's sometimes willfully daft panel will nominate, especially from a team event like the World Cup, although I guess it is between Bellingham and Kane, I shan't be getting involved this far out on anyone near the front of the market. Rory McIlroy looks far too short though, now he is no longer a realistic contender in the Open golf where Tommy Fleetwood (33/1) got to within one stroke of the lead yesterday before falling back.
    https://www.oddschecker.com/awards/sports-personality-of-the-year/bbc-sports-personality-of-the-year/

    Which reminds me, the Commonwealth Games starts next week in Glasgow.

    The introduction of the very short shortlist in recent years, has made this much more difficult to call.

    Josh Kerr is a good shout if he gets nominated, and he really should be nominated for taking out a 27-year-old world record. Another one from athletics is Keely Hodgkinson, who’s getting close to the 800m WR and might have a go in Glasgow. That’s one of the very dodgy records from as long ago as 1983, before they knew how to properly test for drugs! It’s the oldest extant WR in track and field, men or women.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,649
    Burnham clearly outpolls other senior Labour figures so I can't see him being replaced before the next general election. Even his extra spending plans are likely to be matched with tax rises to try and fund them, they may be unpopular with the right but will go down well with the left and Labour core vote. Truss' problem was she cut tax but not spending to fund it
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,704
    Mortimer said:

    I see more silly EU rules are costing individuals time yet again.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg5gg6n9x3o

    Can heartily recommend Montenegro. They stamped our passports without even looking at us there!!

    Fantastic country

    Lake Skardar is amazing

    Herceg Novi and Kotor we’ve stayed in and they’re fantastic although we came in via Dubrovnik
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,704

    On topic, I think Liz is wrong. However, I'd have said the same at the beginning ofmf Starmer's era.

    Golly, calling him a mf is a bit rude.
    :D Fat fingers. I wouldn't insult anyone deliberately in so coarse a fashion.
    At least it wasn’t MILF
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,584
    A very good start for England with 100-0 but judging how many is enough on this pitch is tricky. At least 300 but how many more? They will need to accelerate a bit, I think.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,595
    Taz said:

    Mortimer said:

    I see more silly EU rules are costing individuals time yet again.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg5gg6n9x3o

    Can heartily recommend Montenegro. They stamped our passports without even looking at us there!!

    Fantastic country

    Lake Skardar is amazing

    Herceg Novi and Kotor we’ve stayed in and they’re fantastic although we came in via Dubrovnik
    Bay of Kotor most southerly point of the Austro-Hungaruan Empire.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,595

    Mortimer said:

    Lucy Powell: we've had an economic model that puts "private interests above every day interests"

    What on earth does this even mean?


    I have 'every day interests'
    You have 'your interests'
    Those capitalists have 'private interests'

    The fact the capitalism pays for everything is clearly lost in the grey matter of Lucy Powell....
    Capitalism isn't the problem, it's the grifting and fraud that goes with it, eh Mortimer?

    Capitalism is not any sort of problem.

    The only system that has ever effectively lifted people out of poverty at scale.

    Simples.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,595
    On topic:

    Which! Burnham!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,595
    On topic:

    Which! Burnham!
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,971
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Lucy Powell: we've had an economic model that puts "private interests above every day interests"

    What on earth does this even mean?


    I have 'every day interests'
    You have 'your interests'
    Those capitalists have 'private interests'

    The fact the capitalism pays for everything is clearly lost in the grey matter of Lucy Powell....
    Capitalism isn't the problem, it's the grifting and fraud that goes with it, eh Mortimer?

    Capitalism is not any sort of problem.

    The only system that has ever effectively lifted people out of poverty at scale.

    Simples.
    What is China?
  • StarryStarry Posts: 241
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Lucy Powell: we've had an economic model that puts "private interests above every day interests"

    What on earth does this even mean?


    I have 'every day interests'
    You have 'your interests'
    Those capitalists have 'private interests'

    The fact the capitalism pays for everything is clearly lost in the grey matter of Lucy Powell....
    Capitalism isn't the problem, it's the grifting and fraud that goes with it, eh Mortimer?

    Capitalism is not any sort of problem.

    The only system that has ever effectively lifted people out of poverty at scale.

    Simples.
    It also is a creator of poverty. Not the only one, but it does put profit above humanity.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 5,018

    OT (Kind of)

    I heard for the first time this morning that Burnham is talking about loosening the grip of the whips, reducing their powers. Apologies if this aspect of his vision has already been discussed but just to say that, as I have advocated for this for years, I am pleased at least to see it is something being discussed seriously rather than just remaining a fringe idea.

    The proof of the pudding will be when Labour MPs vote against his policies.
    He may have to whip them to vote for reducing the power of whips.
    The irony of that would be measured in kilometres, rather than just metres.
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